Defining Hospitality

In this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with Michelle Finn, longtime industry fixture and the driving force behind Alis Design Plus, to trace the evolution of hospitality trade events from HD Expo's chaotic 1990s launch (earthquakes, riots and all) to today's design and investment ecosystem. Michelle unpacks her "dinner party" philosophy of hosting, the power of relationships over transactions, and how she scaled that intimacy from a dozen guests to thousands of attendees without losing the human touch. The conversation moves through mentorship, the rise of owner involvement in design, the new Alis Cala expansion into the Caribbean, and even a few fun detours into what a Vogue or Garden and Guns hotel might look like.

About the Guest: 
Michelle Finn heads The BHN Group's hotel design and construction events, including the launch of Alis Design Plus. Previously, she led the management and development of Hospitality Design Expo, HD Boutique, HD Summit, HD Awards, Hospitality Design, Boutique Design NY, Boutique Design West, the BD Forum Series, Boutique Design and Senior Lifestyle Design Match events, the Gold Key Awards, and more. A dedicated, long standing member of NEWH, she has earned numerous awards for innovation spanning trade fair development, publishing, leadership, and service, and is firmly established as a notable presence in Chicago's hospitality landscape.

Chapters:
00:00 Defining Hospitality Intro
00:35 Meet Michelle Finn
01:47 What Hospitality Means
03:38 Hosting Lessons Early On
06:00 Launching HD Expo Origins
08:48 Riots Earthquakes and Vegas Pivot
13:42 Winning Leadership Buy In
22:41 Why ALIS Design Plus Exists
25:21 Growth Plans and Industry Shifts
33:38 Analog Event Magic
34:36 Word of Mouth Wins
35:08 Hospitality Shifts
36:19 Product Categories Boom
37:47 Launching Alice Cala
39:59 Measuring Referrals
43:56 Hosting Like a Pro
48:11 Newcomer Event Playbook
52:22 Future Plans and Farewell

Quote of the Show:
"Identify a need, see something that doesn't exist. That's pretty much what we did." - Michelle Finn

Building a hotel, brand, or guest experience? Reach out to Dan on LinkedIn or hit reply on the Substack to share what you’re working on.

Links:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Serena Johnson

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Michelle Finn
===

[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together, we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

This podcast is sponsored by Berman Falk Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is super passionate and an incredible fan about hospitality design. She's a speaker, she's a trade fair event leader, and a creative innovator. She's a proud member of the Hospitality Industry Network, better known as NAWH. She's the driving force behind ALIS Design Plus, which is in its third year, and that spun out of the Americas Lodging Investment Summit, or better known as ALIS.[00:01:00]

She's the vice president of design and construction products and services at the Hospitality Investment Group by NorthStar. Ladies and gentlemen, longtime friend, welcome Michelle Finn. Welcome, Michelle

Michelle Finn: Thank you, Dan. Thank you for having me

Dan Ryan: I have been in this industry since I was 19 years old, and I feel like at every major event where everyone comes together, you were always there, and you are always there. So to me, you've just been such a part of bringing everyone together, and through all the different peaks and valleys of everything that our industry throws at us, you've just always been there innovating, and I really am excited to talk to everyone about Alice Design Plus.

But before we get into that, what does hospitality mean to you? What's keeping you in this industry and being part of the fixtures?

Michelle Finn: I, I think hospitality, or I know [00:02:00] hospitality to me is, um, about welcoming. And welcoming, you know, takes on many different forms and shapes, but it's really about anticipating, um, the needs and desires of guests, you know, across so many different industries, whether it's the hotel industry or the, um, sort of where the space I play in is conferences and trade fair.

It's the same thing.

Mm-hmm.

But it's about people, and it's about, making people feel comfortable and adapting to their needs

Dan Ryan: Well, one, one of the things that's just struck me is whenever you're doing any of these large gatherings of just different stakeholders from owners or designers or buyers or brands or manufacturers, everyone has an outcome that they'd like or [00:03:00] a return on investment that they'd like or a source of inspiration or new knowledge or new connection that they'd like.

When you take the idea of, or your idea of hospitality and juggling all of those stakeholders, how do you make everyone feel so seen and heard? Because to me, that is one of the hardest things when you have so many people who are there for one reason and you've always done such a wonderful job of just getting everyone together and talking and looking at the big picture and building great things.

Michelle Finn: So I will tell you it's, um, it can be challenging, but I think, you know, for me personally, it started at a young age. Um, I will tell you that my mom is a stickler for manners, a stickler for, uh, table settings. So it, [00:04:00] for me, it kind of started with hosting dinner parties and it, you know, the food has to be good in our family. Um, it was probably hot dogs, but plated. the food, the ambiance, it had to be, you know, an environment that was conducive to laughter and enjoying each other's company. But the company was the most important.

Hmm.

Mom taught me, um, to always ensure that your guests were happy, you know, whatever their needs are. You know, are they thirsty? And, you know, I think it starts from that. And, um, I think all of us at a young age kind of learn that,

hmm

from dinner parties, but you don't really think about it. You know, like, "Oh, yeah, set the table for mom," but not understanding how you have to, if you're a good host, you have to create the dynamic,

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And

Michelle Finn: special.

So I mean, hotels are like hosts, right? They create it

Dan Ryan: They do, but then also these trade events as well, [00:05:00] it's, it's another place where everyone's coming together and everyone wants an ROI, everyone wants to have a new connection, everyone wants to walk away energized like they've met someone new, learned something new,

Michelle Finn: Right

Dan Ryan: heard about a new opportunity. But everyone benefits, right?

And to me,

Michelle Finn: True

Dan Ryan: that's a very difficult, um, I don't know, balance or outcome to engineer, 'cause that's what you're doing. You're engineering these outcomes where everyone feels energized, and there's no playbook for that, right? And one of the things that I want everyone to know here as well is that when you first started HD, it was 1992, it was the, the LA riots happened.

Then in '94, the earthquakes happened. Then, you know, you keep going forward and we just-- There's never a straight path. There's always a detour. And what have the detours in your career taught you about the resilience of this wonderful industry that you're such an [00:06:00] important part of?

Michelle Finn: we started HD... Well, actually it was a little bit earlier. Um, the magazine, gosh, I wasn't even there then, maybe late '70s, there was a magazine called, let me see if I can remember this, uh, Restaurant and Hotel Design International. And, um, I was hired late '80s, as a, um, Midwest advertising representative. in those days, I mean, we had a pretty strong magazine, but in those days, in the early days, you know, publishers were elitist, right? It was about content and editorial. And, um, no one really looked at it, you know, especially in hospitality, that was also about, about

Hmm

which you can't exactly foster in print. there was an opportunity, as you mentioned, um, to launch our own trade fair, which, [00:07:00] um, by the way, I'd like to take all the credit for it, but,

Dan Ryan: You're more than welcome to take all the credit. We give it to you

Michelle Finn: maybe he won't listen. Uh, the visionary behind this was a gentleman by the name of Paul Weintraub, who was my boss.

Hmm.

And, um, he left and then I executed. But no one from the publishing side ever did that. So that was a first. So when you talk about opportunities, it's seeing something that maybe that there's a... Identify a need, seeing something that doesn't exist. And that's pretty much w- you know, what we did back in, well, it was even earlier, like 19- late '80s. And then, of course, changed the name to the magazine in '91, '92, a trade fair, and we had to learn the execution of that. You know, we had the content, so we had conference programming. We understood the market.

Hmm

we understood, uh, you [00:08:00] know, who the players were, uh, were and, um, you know, the type of speakers we wanted. So that part already existed. um, our advertisers became our exhibitors, so we knew them. And, um, so going back, the operations was something that we had to learn. We had everything else.

But the other thing we learned at, at a very early stage of this, and it was... The market was changing, the industry was changing, how important relationships were. So our job was to facilitate that relationship between, in essence, buyer and seller . And then in between

Dan Ryan: Right. And then also trying to build the plane while you're taking off, and then getting earthquakes and riots and who knows what thrown at you, right?

Michelle Finn: We, okay, we didn't see that one coming. The, uh, the trade show HD launched 1992. It opened the day the Rodney King, Rodney King ver- Rodney King verdict was [00:09:00] announced, and with that, it was closed two hours later.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Michelle Finn: That was that.

Dan Ryan: Wow

Michelle Finn: either you got out, you, you were able to get out of LA or not,

Dan Ryan: So I, I think one of the thing-- I love the dinner party metaphor that you have because, you know, you, you have the dinner party where you have all the different people there and your, your-- everything is thought about from the place c- place setting to the food to the drink to maybe you can steer the conversation unless you have like a crazy uncle who's there that just has to take over.

But when you have a dinner party and it functions super well and everyone walks, walks away like feeling satiated and closer to those who are around them, when you scale that into a trade fair from like, let's say 12 people at a dinner party to 12,000 people or however many people go, what scales easily and then what breaks?

Or w- like where, what are the [00:10:00] surprises that pop up that you're like, "Oh, that scaled well, but whoa, that was a new lesson learned"?

Michelle Finn: a, you know, that's a good question. But the, the fundamentals are still the same. In essence, felt that we were the host of our trade fair, we had an obligation. And we didn't look at it like we're just putting up this big tent and, you know, hopefully everybody shows up. We became, um, for us, it wasn't a spectator sport. We were involved. So, um, we were there at the trade show facilitating relationships between our exhibitors and attendees, attendees and their potential clients. And, uh, so I think what made it unique in some ways, because the trade show industry at the time was more transactional, right? You went into somebody's space, I'd like to buy 10,000 shares, like the retail. Um, but our industry isn't like [00:11:00] that, and we recognized that early. It's relationship, it's a relationship business,

Mm-hmm. How

building those relationships to advance somebody's sales

Dan Ryan: Yes. And with that, I know you mentioned earlier that, you know, the industry has changed and it continues to change. If you-- When you go back to that first trade f- or the f- I guess the first one didn't really happen 'cause it was '92, the riots happened, right? So '93 was the first official one

Michelle Finn: 9-- Okay, wait, '92 was canceled. '93 we staged, and this answers your question. we felt like we had, you know, we got a lot of things right. We had great programming. For us, it was really the operations, you know, and understanding that, and was also an audience base, which was harder when you scale up. was harder than we thought. So I would say in, um, the first year we actually staged, [00:12:00] our attendance was lower than expected. you know, that means or that meant we were not delivering return on investment for our customers, so we needed to solve that problem immediately. And the next year was '94. Um, we moved venues to the Century City Hotel in Los Angeles,

Yeah

and then an earthquake hit, and we canceled maybe about six months before the show would've staged. so, uh, you know, no one-- we refunded everybody's money, so no one lost any money. There was no travel and expense, so that worked. And then, you know, it was interesting because Vegas, I mean, the big hotel was the Treasure Island then,

Dan Ryan: I remember, yeah

Michelle Finn: right? And I remember going to my bosses and saying, "I think we need to be in Vegas. I think it's a destination, and I think there's a lot of growth potential." And they said, "You gotta be kidding. We need to be in LA." So it was like, know, I sort of risked my [00:13:00] job by going to Vegas that year. then of course it was Stay Alive till '95. Uh, but Vegas worked and we moved to Vegas, went to The Sands. The host hotel was the Treasure Island. Vegas got bigger and so did H. State

Dan Ryan: And I have a question. Was Paul Weintraub, was he your boss through all of that?

Michelle Finn: It was his idea. No, he left, say, like maybe '92-ish.

Dan Ryan: Okay

Michelle Finn: if he-- I can't remember if he was there the first year when we canceled. And at the time, MJ Madigan was our editor-in-chief on the conference programming. She, I know she was there. I don't remember if Paul was there then

Dan Ryan: So wh- where I wanna go with this is as a visionary, as you describe Paul, but I would also say you for also having, like knowing that and willing this to happen despite all those out of the gate surprises. How do, [00:14:00] how did you communicate upward and keep the people above you, your, the, your, who you were accountable to believing in you, believing in this?

'Cause that must have been, that must have been really hard

Michelle Finn: It was really hard, but that's a really good question.

Hmm

because there were two people, Jeff Berlin, who actually was Paul's boss, another guy named Mike Charlton. Um, they were amazing leaders because they believed in not only me, but our team.

Hmm.

You know, they saw success and, eh, maybe there was some risk because, you know, we spend the money and no one shows up, it's a problem. um, it was really about them believing in us and supporting us

Dan Ryan: So there must have been some real uncomfortable conversations though after the earthquake, you know, riots, all, all these things. How did you... Like, are there any moments you can recall where, where you, where you were talking to Jeff and Mike [00:15:00] and they're like, "Oh, do we..." Did they ever get nervous about moving forward?

Or what gave them the strength, or, or was it you and your team that gave them the strength? 'Cause h- in my mind, if I put on an allocator of capital hat, I'm like, "Oh, like this is... Nothing is easy in this world, but this is really, really, really hard." So were there times where you d- were just like, "Oh, I better, I better figure something else out?"

Michelle Finn: Right. Look, you know, maybe this shouldn't be my day job. Uh, I, you know, I think so, but, uh, here's the thing. We had strong relationships with our customers, and they believed in us. So I think that was sort of the moment when, you know, the, the, you know, senior management realized that if an industry is believing in this there's a need, you know, that the-- Something like HD didn't exist.

It was the [00:16:00] only hospitality event focused on design There was, there was a need for that. So I think I had really smart bosses and they were like, "Hmm, there's a need." you know, based on, you know, our relationships with our customers and with industry leaders, we had immediate support on that side

Dan Ryan: So if you were to go back to the need that was there, and maybe this is, this is kind of where I'm trying to get to

When people used to furnish hotels from eight, like n- 1989 and before, it was just done differently, right? There were y- everyone-- There would be a designer maybe who does some hotels here and there. They'd buy everything f- through office furniture or through furniture dealers, um, or equipment dealers regionally, and it was very fragmented.

But in my opinion, hospitality from a CapEx or capital expenditure perspective amongst... If you look at all the different commercial real [00:17:00] estate entities over a spectrum or all the different silos, hospitality tends to spend more on capital expenditures than most other industries. And I like this quote by Jeff Bezos.

He would always say, "Oh, one, one person's margin or extra margin

Yeah

is his opportunity." And I would guess that the, in that fragmented way of doing things, you're shielding the owners of the hotels and from the manufacturers. So how did you know that that need was there, first of all? And then how did you gather up all those leaders from all the different areas, owner, designer, um, pr- buyer, manufacturer, and bring them all together?

Like, w- how did you, A, get the idea, and what, what validated that idea for you even through all of those initial headwinds?

Michelle Finn: Well, we knew based on [00:18:00] our involvement on the magazine side, we knew the market was changing. Before, let's say early '80s, design in hotels were not that important, right? No one really focused on it. Uh, you had select service coming in, and it was like, you need a bed, you need a dresser. Um, design was really only important the luxury level. So designers were not involved with the segment early on. we almost started with the industry. uh, so at the time, you know, again, we had people, um, you know, from one... I don't know if you remember Manny Seinfeld?

Dan Ryan: Oh my gosh, he was

I love-

Amazing

I know. He came to us at one point and

Shelby Williams

Michelle Finn: yeah, with Shelby w- uh, founder of Shelby Williams, owner of Shelby Williams, a couple times.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: Um, he came to us and said, "Hey, there's a need. Um, you know, this doesn't exist. We wanna be a part of it." And [00:19:00] the idea of contract, you think of the contract market, also did not exist

Hmm.

In the '70s. You know, there were no...

Dan Ryan: But it did for Office or not even for Office?

Michelle Finn: but not for hospitality.

Dan Ryan: okay

Michelle Finn: but, but then the whole thing changed because in office and, you know, in the office market, you're working with dealers. how hospitality worked, going through manufacturer would sell their products through an equipment dealer. So you'd buy the ovens and the appliances. "Oh, and by the way, I need some tables and chairs." That changed.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: Designers got more involved, and they were going direct. So the whole industry trained. So in any sort of, I guess, story about like, you know, why do we exist at the time, it's because we were really knowledgeable and clear on the direction of the market from our experience with the magazine

Dan Ryan: Because in the, in the magazine you're connecting manufacturers, designers, you see who the subscribers [00:20:00] are. Like, there was a community before way-- like, before the internet. Now, in those h- in those times when you had to pivot or cancel the, uh, the first events, I wanna go back to the dinner party metaphor, 'cause I know that you've talked about, like for instance, Paul, your, your mentor and visionary, and then Jeff and Mike.

But then you also said your relationships with the customers. And I also want to acknowledge that you've said the word relationship 10 times since we've started talking, because to me, that's what keeps me in this industry. It's the relationships that I've forged, and I do think that this is a very relationship-driven industry.

But going back to that dinner party metaphor, the first couple events were canceled. Fi- stay alive till 95, right? You, you, the one happening in 95. If you were to have a dinner party, and I know I just came up with that idea of 12 people to 12,000, but if you were to take those leaders who were the customers of the magazine, so the designers, the [00:21:00] manufacturers.

Who were the-- If you were to set that table, if you would, with those leader-- in-initial leaders that said, "No, we need this. We believe in you. We believe in this concept. Keep going," who's at that table?

Michelle Finn: The table is comprised of everyone seated at different, seated, you know, at different areas of the table. It's comprised

Dan Ryan: But like Manny, it would be at the table, right?

Michelle Finn: you know, Judy and Dan Dobin

Dan Ryan: Of course

Michelle Finn: part of this. Um, you know, they were very instrumental in, you know, our sort of launching HD at the time. Uh, it would be comprised of, uh, manufacturers, it would be comprised of designers, architects. At the time purchasing, at the time that ownership component was not as big then. It was really your business from, you know, as a manufacturer, y- y- the person who's y- you wanna connect with is purchasing and design. Maybe the GM, but you know, the way [00:22:00] the market exists now wasn't the same

Dan Ryan: I think that, that-- 'cause this is kind of where I'm getting to, where the, the biggest change that I've seen in our industry, especially for the big-ticket items like, uh, like speaking case goods and seating from, from my perspective, oftentimes in a renovation or a development budget outside of construction, it's sometimes the second biggest check that a developer writes.

Michelle Finn: Right

Dan Ryan: oftentimes I, I have a lot of relationships with different ownership groups, and that's evolved over the years because they want to control who that relationship and who that check gets written to, because if the furniture's not there, they're not renting the rooms. So if you were to... Then you fast-forward all the way to three years ago, where you're doing your first Alice Design Plus, is that really the differentiator in your opinion?

Or what makes Alice Design Plus different from everything else that's out there?

Michelle Finn: So, um, uh, you know, it, I think HD, when we did HD, [00:23:00] that was different than anything else out there, right? And then when we launched BDNY, it differentiated f- from HD Expo, uh, by the fact that it was focused on boutiq- boutique and lifestyle. events were still more focused on design and purchasing. You know, as an audience base,

Mm-hmm.

Um, they had to differentiate. So now we have a new brand, um, Design, and our focus here is watching as the industry evolves, is connecting investors, developers with the design and construction market. That, know, we're, we're relatively small event, but that's our focus.

How do we do a better job at facilitating that relationships? How do we get owners more involved with construction? And that's our, our goal. So it does differentiate. I mean, I, I would say Owners Brands go to a lot of different events, but we're [00:24:00] very targeted and specific, and we intend to build on that positioning

Dan Ryan: I also want to just... Now I'm, I'm just rem- like I went to the first one.

The second one I was supposed to go to, but it wasn't an earthquake or a riot, it was fires. And then I was like, "Oh, I'm, I'm not going because of the fires," because my sister... I was gonna stay with my sister, and she lives up the hill there, and she's like, "You're not staying with me."

So I just canceled last minute. This past, uh, January, it was like the most incredible and beautiful weather you could ever imagine, and the attendance seemed fantastic. So I mean, actually, except for the snowstorm on the East Coast. So it's, like there's a lot of weather that's always coming

Michelle Finn: I, I don't know, Dan. I don't know why I always have a problem with that for the last 25 years. Earthquakes, fires. The first year we did, um, HD Summit, it was canceled because of a hurricane in Miami.

Dan Ryan: Yes

Michelle Finn: I should go to drier climate, right? Uh,

Dan Ryan: Well, no, it, it, this past January w- it was just the snowstorm just shut [00:25:00] down the entire Eastern Seaboard travel, right? And I, and I-- But also, I just, to me it was incredible because even though a lot of people couldn't make it there or got there late, to me it was awesome because I had so much time to go talk and build relationships with other people that were there.

When you think about the success that you've had with Alice Design Plus thus far, and then let's say, just put it three years out, what are your goals for differentiation, but also success for what Alice Design Plus is and wants to be?

Michelle Finn: our goals are to adapt and evolve. Uh, that also means, uh, you know, we certainly have growth initiatives. Alice Design has been growing about 20% the last three years, and we expect the same in, uh, 2020-- where are we? 2027.

Uh, at some point [00:26:00] will, um, at some point we'll have to make some decisions, and we've made none so far on, you know, if we continue to grow, we're out of space. So what does that look like? So we would have to do a very in-depth assessment, you know, based on our customer needs and audience needs. Um, and in the meantime, we do plan to expand into other areas.

Hmm

I'm happy to announce that we're expanding Alice Design, um, with Alice Cala, the Alice Caribbean Hotel Investment Conference.

Dan Ryan: Oh, great

Michelle Finn: One of-- I, I mean, they're the premier conference focusing on the Caribbean and Latin America, American market. So we see an opportunity, uh, there to expand Alice Design co-lo- co-locate a smaller event with that Alice event. Uh, and the Caribbean market is pretty hot right now,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Finn: so we like it

Dan Ryan: With all the growth of events [00:27:00] and interest in content in these analog gatherings, you know, there's all this scuttlebutt about just different companies acquiring other companies, and Skift just bought three independent hospitality podcasts last year.

Michelle Finn: Yeah

Dan Ryan: there's ILC, which I-- is very independent, but there, it seems to be...

And even the brands, even a sub, a, a sector of your customers and my customers is the brands, they're seeing who does things well and acquiring. How do you s- s- I don't know, stack this trend up that we're all, that we're, that we're seeing to how you've seen it from the start of your career as far as the consolidation, reorganization?

Because I feel like we're in a very strange or different time, and I don't know if it's where we are in the cycle, but it's just worth noting, and I'd love to get some historical context from your, from your experience.

Michelle Finn: So on [00:28:00] my side, on the trade fair and conference side,

Hmm.

When HD Expo launched, it, it was the only trade show of its kind.

Um, and it, and it became pretty big at, I would say around 2009, '10, somewhere in that, era. Um, it was like 325,000 square feet of, net square feet of exhibit space.

Hmm

It filled the entire Sands on the upstairs and downstairs level. Uh, and I think, you know, we were sort of at the right place at the right time, but nothing like this exists. And then people started to, you know, introduce and launch new products. So you saw a lot of new products coming in, and then we did the same thing with BD&Y.

You know, which, you know, I, I, I don't... We never like to take the position that we're gonna copy somebody else.

It's always... And I don't like to go backward. So it's always like, what's new? What's something, what else is going on in the industry, you know, where we can, [00:29:00] uh, create value? And BD&Y was one of them

In a different way. And then Alice Design in a different way. But y- you were watching the market change too, because again, the notion that you would be connecting with an owner like a, you know, Sunstone, Pebblebrook, it-- that didn't really happen 20 years ago. You probably would not have. You know, maybe there were a few exceptions. Now seems to me, you know, they're, they have their own design managers, that there's a genuine interest in connecting not only with design talent. If I put all those people in a room and said, "How many of you are interested in design talent?" raises their hand.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: So it's sort of interesting.

So then as an organizer, how can we better facilitate that? Neat on both sides. And then the manufacturers are in there as well

Dan Ryan: If you think about someone who might be on the fence, and let's go with three [00:30:00] different categories: an owner, a designer, a manufacturer, and, and a buyer, a purchaser. Let's go with four.

Yeah

If you're-- If-- Let's say those four archetypes are on the fence about going to Alice Design. Speak to each of them about what you've heard from other people in their vocation that go and, and some of the testimonials that you've heard about, "Wow, I'm really glad I went there."

Michelle Finn: I think it's twofold. I think the design community, including purchasing, uh, construction, you know, they're there for a learning experience to connect with manufacturers, but also to connect with clients or potential clients, right?

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: On the ownership side, it's-- And we started doing this like, you know, early BDNY, maybe late HD for the ownership side, is having a general understanding of design trends, of costs, right? You know, what are... You're [00:31:00] spending all this money, did you know that you could save, you know, millions of dollars by doing it this way or hire-hiring this team? Uh, the other thing we've always encouraged owners who are involved with design or interested in design is connecting with manufacturers.

Mm-hmm.

And it's not so much like, hey, great, um, you're buying a thousand, you know, case goods for a thousand room hotel. It's not so much when things go right, it's when they go south,

Dan Ryan: Yes

Michelle Finn: and that's where that relationship is important.

Dan Ryan: 100%.

Michelle Finn: And that, and again, this doesn't really exist in as many other markets, but it does in ours.

So there's a reason for owners to be involved, but it's, it's really if, you know, you look at like brands and ownership groups, there's what?

Thousands of people.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: obviously the sales and marketing team h- you know, would have no interest in this. But really for us, it's identifying the people that would have an interest in design and design talent. [00:32:00] You know, there's so much innovation in the hotel space. so it's sort of interesting, um, you know, for hotel owners, I think, like look at all this amazing, not only innovation on brand development, but also design.

The, the, the people that are creating these amazing spaces that achieve owners' objectives. So for them, it's a learning experience. Are they gonna go to every design event? No And for us, because we're connected and affiliated with Alice, know, we have that connection. We are able to leverage those relationships and provide a need

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And

I s-

Michelle Finn: I know

Dan Ryan: and I see just how many owners come in for Alice, right? And then in thinking about how to do this bolt-on of Alice Design, what were some of the, the challenges as far as creating space within Alice? So Alice can stay what Alice is, right? 'Cause it really connects people.

Right

[00:33:00] people are doing deals. It's, it's, you know, it's pretty exciting.

The brands come in.

Yeah

there's just, it's... I just get the sense there's a lot of wheeling and dealing. But how did you-- What were some of the challenge of, challenges of carving out that design space where owners can connect with manufacturers and designers?

Michelle Finn: You know, it, it was challenging. However, I thought we did a good job in managing expectations. The first year was pretty small, and there were a lot of kinks the first year, which we worked on. And usually when w- you launch a trade show, an event, there's always kinks, and it usually relates to the attendee.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, attendee and attracting the right audience. So I think it took us a while to really start building those relationships with owners on the Alice side and through our, you know, marketing efforts, you know, giving them a reason and building that excitement. You have to create excitement,

Dan Ryan: I also think with the rise of all the, the AI and the automatically generated content and [00:34:00] just all the spam bots and everything else, and just the banner ads and everything that a designer might come across or an owner might come across trying to find product, I think that people are also starved for this analog engagement.

And that's why I'm, I'm hopeful that that dinner party, what makes a dinner party successful will also continue to make these in-person events successful. Are, are-- Have you done any like SWOT analysis or thinking about the strength of analog versus digital?

Michelle Finn: Oh, that's really interesting. Uh, no, I have not. But I can tell you in any attendee survey I have done,

Mm-hmm.

Whether HD, BDNY, Alice Design, pick an event, the number one reason why people attend the event is due to word of mouth, and that goes back to relationships.

Yeah

you're thinking of maybe attending Alice or whatever, um, you're gonna call somebody.

And [00:35:00] that Is, you have to spend a lot of time understanding that and then figuring out the how to. How do you expand that?

Dan Ryan: for through your tenure and where you are now connecting, kind of bringing the owners more into the mix or h- or creating this bridge where owners can, um, forge new relationships or strengthen relationships with the vendors, the designers, the purchasers, and all the other consultants, what are other big changes that you've seen over, I don't know, what is that, 30 years of just the hospitality design world?

Michelle Finn: Well, one, I think it's, um, you know, the owner's involvement and awareness has increased over the years. Also, the brand development. I mean, the hotel companies have done an amazing job with brand development. I mean, there's like the boutique hotels, the independents, um, you know, the big brands with Autograph and Curio.

There's, um, you know, Hilton's product. They're really kind of slicing and dicing, [00:36:00] and going back to the definition of hospitality, like welcoming people, but everybody has different needs. So it's always trying to find that need and deliver a product that meets those needs,

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Michelle Finn: and

And

how they want to be treated.

Now, that could be luxury, that could be boutique, lifestyle, select service. It's all different.

Dan Ryan: One, one of the things I can share just from, you know, my more narrow perspective is, I guess in 2010 I started doing work with DDon, doing-- um, doing outdoor furniture. And I remember at, I think it was-- it must've been HD was the first. It could've been BDNY, I don't remember. But if y- back in 2010, if you looked at the exhibitor guide and looked at outdoor furniture, there were like five or, I don't know, five or eight manufacturers.

Now there's, I don't know, uh, is hundreds saying too many? 100? Up to 100, scores. What are other surprise, um, commodities [00:37:00] that you've seen really change and evolve over the years

or, or expand tremendously?

Michelle Finn: think the case goods definitely. There were only a few case good companies when I started. Same with seating. Um, I mean, there were few, a f- few companies in every product category when I started.

and then, um, you know, f- for the same reason we started our business, as manufacturers look at it, "Hey, we do, we deliver a great product.

Here's an opportunity." So they jumped in, then the market expanded. Yeah was that as important 20 years ago? I don't think so. But now, you know, resorts are big. You know, everything that's going on in the Caribbean market, outdoor spaces. So the market changed. So the outdoor furniture companies, you know, really saw that

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And I think with the... What's exciting about the Cala, uh, collaboration you're do- uh, like, would you call it a collaboration or the mer- like

Michelle Finn: Well, it's, we'll, we'll adapt the same model as Alice Design, co-located with [00:38:00] Alice. And we'll, but we will not do, at least initially, we won't do a trade fair. It'll be a conference, small, and we will co-locate it, co-locate an Alice Design Calla conference with Alice Calla. Alice Calla. A lot of, a lot of words

Dan Ryan: when, like when and where will that be approximately? Like will it, is it in Miami?

Michelle Finn: It will be in Coral Gables,

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Michelle Finn: mid-May.

Makes sense. Mm-hmm.

Removed the dates. Used to be right before HD Expo, now it's after the event.

And

that m- uh, you know, we like, we like our collaboration with Alice because that, you know, strengthens our position, uh, and it speaks to our mission, but we really like the Caribbean market

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and I j- the proliferation and the, the brands and just ownership groups acquiring so many of those resorts throughout Central s- Central... or Mexico, Central, and South America is just unbelievable, and just creating a more cohesive experience, [00:39:00] um, I don't know. I- to me, I, I feel like it needs this kind of connection and collaboration.

Are there any initial headwinds you're seeing, um, about, I don't know, people wanting to go, or attendance, or what are people most excited about or concerned about with that market in

Michelle Finn: is

particular?

Time, you know, you're hearing it first. We haven't, you know, we've announced it, uh, but a press release will be going out, more information, but that's not out yet.

Dan Ryan: Okay

Michelle Finn: You asked about expansion. We made the decision, so it's public in a sense. We just haven't... You don't have the information yet

Dan Ryan: All right, cool. Well, but it, okay. Uh, hopefully it will be away from hurricane season, right?

Michelle Finn: May? W-

Dan Ryan: Oh yeah,

don't know,

that's just before hurricane season. Good. Yes. I think hurricane season starts in June or July,

Well,

then it goes through November. So you're good. Okay, great

Michelle Finn: Something new for me, and if I do, like, a dinner party in Turks or Ca- Turks and Caicos, will you come?

Dan Ryan: I, 100%. I would love to come. I, I yes. [00:40:00] Um, when you talk about the word of mouth testimonials or recommendations that, that people say, I know it's very anecdotal, but is there a w- like, how do you, how do you measure that? How do you know that the word of mouth is really what's, what's driving and, and, or maybe it has this, the stickiest, um, or the ability to be stickiest about getting new people to come and try Alice Design or, or even go down to Cala?

Michelle Finn: We, we can measure that via our survey. So we would ask you, we'd ask, um, an attendee, you know, "How did you hear about Alice Design?" I mean, I've done it for every event and, you know, via marketing, via an exhibitor. Exhibitor, um, um, invitations are also very high, but it's like hearing it from somebody,

Yeah

we can measure that.

We can say 30% are h- are attending an event because they heard it on the street or they talked to somebody. How [00:41:00] you build on that is a little bit harder

Dan Ryan: And then what's so hard about that?

Michelle Finn: Well, because you can't... It's not, if you look at something like if y- let's say it was 80% the, your, our audience, um, is attending ALAS Design because of advertising. Okay, you look at that, well, let's increase our advertising budget. So that's pretty cut and dry. Word of mouth, so I guess we have to talk more?

I mean, like how do you quantify that? So that's a little bit tricky in that, you know, we believe it's our personal and as a company's engagement in the market we serve that fuels that I mean, I think the hotels are similar, right? I mean, hey, uh, you know, even if you look at like TripAdvisor or some recommendation, are trying new hotels because they heard it from somebody else as a testimonial

Dan Ryan: But that also is interesting because I guess, I [00:42:00] don't know, I feel like that happens a lot on the independent side where maybe they don't have, I don't know, the, the canon, the marketing canon and the moat of guest loyalty that the big brands might bring to the table. But I think the most successful independent hotels are...

It's definitely word of mouth. And plus, I think that it winds up making them more profitable too, in the end, because they're not paying whatever percent off the revenue to the brands, r- right, ahead of equity holders or investors. It's, they, they're re- they're, they're capturing more of their profit and revenue, revenue and then profit, um, by not being a big part of that.

But then you're also, you, you know, you have to make the decision of being great but small versus good and huge. A personal story I'd like to share, and I actually just interviewed her, uh, a couple days ago, is, uh, Adrienne [00:43:00] Scribner from, uh, Baskerville in DC.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, I saw her at Alice in January, or Al- Alice Design, and I said, "Oh, let's catch up, catch up on some things."

And I remember I said, "Oh, let's go sit at this table over here." And I know you had all those awesome f- you always have those awesome food trucks set up outside, and it was such a beautiful day. She's like, "No, let's go sit over there and talk to some people we didn't, we don't know." And I was like, "Oh, that's what I should be doing, why I'm here."

And we did that, and I met some really incredible people who also became podcast guests. I know Isaac Colotl was one of them, um, from S- is it STR? I think STR, the data guy.

Michelle Finn: I saw him. He's fabulous.

Dan Ryan: amazing. And, uh, but I've, I've just m- al- every event I go to, I always make such great and new connections, and then there's always something to go deeper with people who've, you've known forever and learn something else about.

How do you take an event like the ones [00:44:00] that you've put on throughout your career, and also take the moment, because there's so many people that are inbound to you, but really, how do you go deeper with the people that you already know at these events? Because it must be so difficult, 'cause I would imagine you're spread so thin with all the different stakeholders

Michelle Finn: well, I'm fortunate the, you know, with Alice Design, it's, you know, it's not as, you know, the, you know, it's still technically like a day and a half to, you know, one day and a half over, like, two days. so, you know, it was much more difficult. You know, it's much more difficult as, um, you know, with a major trade show that hopefully will to evolve and grow, but that is always a challenge.

Hmm.

Um, again, I would, I would go back to, you know, if we are, you know, we're organizers, uh, we're inventors of trade fairs, conferences, small events. Uh, but if you go back to that host [00:45:00] approach or hostess, maybe I'm the hostess, and, you know, it's like, how do you treat people? And that's being observant.

Observant. Um, you know, paying attention to your customer's needs. It would be like if I was sitting by the food truck, which by the way, was Jeff Higley's idea.

Uh, yay, yay, Jeff. If I was sitting by the food truck, you know, I would sit at a table where I don't know people and engage. It's really all about engagement

Dan Ryan: one of the other th- one of the many things I also appreciate about you, Michelle, is that whenever I make it to an NEWH event, which is-- they're very regional,

Yep

they're- it's nonprofit, you're always there, you're always connecting. W- And then I also see you talking to new people that are there. one of the challenges I think, no matter where-- I think NEWH does a great job of this, where getting students to come in who might be entering the job market.

What are some challenges that you've had through all the different trade fairs that you've been involved [00:46:00] with, with getting the younger designers and purchasers and project managers and students to come in? Because oftentimes other companies will sponsor them. Uh, do you offer reduced rates to them?

Because I feel like s- what sometimes happens is there's a gap between the people who are already kind of established in their career trajectory, and then also getting the younger people to experience and just be around what it's like and what that relationship building is like. And then I have a follow-on question to that one

Michelle Finn: So I, I think, you know, for us it's, it's a, it's a challenge because all our audience base is at a higher level,

Mm-hmm.

Because of our affiliation with Alice and our, um, you know, our success in building those relationships with owners and brands. So the attendees tend to you know, people with 10 years of experience. So [00:47:00] that is not necessarily our, our goal, but as we expand, I think we wanna bring that segment group into the

I appreciate

part is harder, except for students.

So

will work with hotel schools

Mm-hmm.

Comp, you know, students, you know, X amount.

Dan Ryan: What, what I really appreciate what you just said as far as kind of the demographic or psychographic of who your attendees are at 10 years of experience, that's amazing. And then I also think that to, to choose that at the expense of others and really lean into that, that I find the more that you can niche down, the better, because it just delivers more value to those going.

And maybe what I was-- what, and, uh, what I, uh, maybe I'm making up a story for you, but I feel like seeing you at these NAWH events and being there and connecting with the people who are-- have less than 10 years experience or two or three [00:48:00] years experience, or talking to the students that are coming through, I don't know, I just find that that's, that lights me up when I do that, and I, I appreciate that about you.

Do you h- from all of your experience doing these trade events, do you have any advice for someone who's never been to one as far as getting the most out of it? 'Cause when I go to these things, I, I kind of don't have a schedule. I, I have a couple meetings maybe, but I just like to be open to whoever I'm gonna collide with and bump into and, and see that.

But on the other side of the spectrum, there's people who are very regimented, organized, making meetings every 15, 20 minutes and being very efficient, where I like to be more open. We- what are some best practices that you've seen for, for people who are new in their careers when going to these events so they can suck as much marrow out of it as possible, out of them as possible?

Michelle Finn: I would recommend, um, you know, whether it's our event or [00:49:00] any w- or any other event, uh, is to identify, I don't know, pick 10 manufacturers, 10 exhibitors, 20, make a point of meeting with 10 people you don't know on the manufacturing side. And if you're meeting them at a higher level, you know, you know, they know design firms and ownership groups.

I would also definitely recommend the content, attending the sessions.

Hmm

That's where I learned. Uh, and really getting a better understanding of the market, and then trying to identify 10 people you don't-- Try to connect with 10 people you don't know any kind of event, any kind of trade show. As organizers, we try to help facilitate that, you know, in many different ways.

We have a hosted delegate program which forces, uh, your customers or designers and architects to connect with people they may or may not know,

to their benefit, is great

Dan Ryan: if you were to share a [00:50:00] testimonial or aggregate a bunch of testimonials from Alice Design, what's the overwhelming value that you hear that people get who attend Alice Design?

Michelle Finn: uh, the testimonials that we get is, you know, the, people, whether it's an exhibitor or, or attendees, they like the intimacy of it or the perceived intimacy.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Finn: And that goes back to, you know, in, in facilitating those relationships. And they feel, at least designers, architects, construction, construction managers feel they have an opportunity to talk to people. You know, they have an opportunity to spend more time with manufacturers than they would elsewhere. we also, you know, are-- we're pretty strong on the ownership side. It's about 35% of our audience base represents that segment. ownership, you know, PMs, [00:51:00] project management is somewhat in that category as they hire sometimes design professionals or at least influence that decision.

Hmm.

The comment, the comments that we receive are, is really about our ability to connect a broader market , a broader group of people, primarily because we've added the, and expanded on that ownership side

Dan Ryan: Delivering on that value and having consistently done that throughout your career, how would you tie that drive of yours of delivering on that value back to how Paul Weintraub believed in you?

Michelle Finn: Oh gosh. Um, I, you know, j- things were so different then. I, I think the fundamentals again are the, the same. Uh, y- know, we tend to, as a group, collect data. We tend to have a keen understanding of the market we serve. I think my company is certainly [00:52:00] supportive and supportive of customers coming to us and like, "Hey, we wanna expand," or, you know, know, the, the whole idea of doing a smaller event in conjunction with Alice Callout, a lot of that came from our customers. So, you know, like, "Hey, this would be great." Um, you know, we see opportunity here and there's no one here

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Okay, so now I want you to fast-forward to next January 2027. What are you most excited about with respect to the next Alice design? What's, what's lined up? What's got- what's getting you really excited?

Michelle Finn: Um, we're really-- we're still really excited about working with NAWH, um, their SOHE awards, um, Structures in Hospitality Excellence, and that is another-- it's the and first award given to construction companies working in hospitality.

Dan Ryan: Really?

Michelle Finn: a first. [00:53:00] Uh, they launched that, I think it was two years ago, and the awards event is at Alice Design Plus. I think, you know, it's-- we talk about design, we talk about purchasing, what about the construction guys? However, the con-- You know, what goes in the construction budget and what goes in FF&E are maybe two different things. Uh, but we think that's an important segment. is interested in expanding into that segment, and so are we.

So that's a great collaboration, and we're excited about that because it's new.

Hmm

And NAWH always does a great job. We have-- They have fabulous judges and, uh, we are excited about that. We are in the process of working on our conference programming, so that won't be available for a couple of months

Dan Ryan: And are you ac- uh, are you taking recommendations in? Is there a, a portal open or opening for... Okay

Michelle Finn: open to ideas, on conference programming

Dan Ryan: Right? So

Michelle Finn: Scoviak is our contract, uh, content director

Dan Ryan: Oh, she's great. Okay. [00:54:00] So yeah, anyone, uh, any of you designers or o- other consultants who are out there, if you have a really good content idea, don't be shy.

Michelle Finn: Absolutely not.

Dan Ryan: Bring it to Mary or bring it to Michelle. If you can bring the people and the idea and it's engaging, you have a pretty good shot of getting set up to do that and, and educating others

Michelle Finn: thank you, Dan. Hey, I have one other thing for you. You were talking about the dinner parties.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: this story. We were talking about dinner parties, we were talking about the innovativeness

Mm-hmm.

Of the hospitality industry as far as brand development and new exciting things. There was a dinner party that, um, I attended, I don't know, maybe about a year ago. Uh, it was with one of the, um, at the lodging conference. Anyway, uh, we were sitting around a table and I was sharing a story that my experience and where I started was on the [00:55:00] magazine side, and I always felt, and so did my boss and a few bosses, that you could take any magazine and build and launch a trade show. then what would that look like? Like what would a Vogue magazine look like? And the number one magazine from our group, because we had to choose a magazine to build a hotel,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Michelle Finn: it was Garden and Guns.

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow

Michelle Finn: Not to be confused with Guns and Ammo, but, uh, I thought that was really interesting. Then you look at the market and it's like Field and Streams Hotel.

Dan Ryan: Yep

Michelle Finn: And have a Travel and Leisure working with Sports Illustrated, I'm not sure how that deal works, but I'm really intrigued by the Sports Illustrated hotel.

Conley did that was, you know, at Jo- when he was

Dan Ryan: Oh, w- at Trottavie, he would take a magazine and then come up with three words and, and do that. And it's-- But again, that goes down to being super targeted about your niche, your story,

Bye

and what you're trying to tell. But I also think it, it harkens back to the beginning where you were saying you knew your customers so [00:56:00] well from the magazine.

And to think about a magazine's audience and to have enough advertisers, readers, people who are generally interested in the subject matter to warrant a magazine, I h- 100% agree that the audience is there. Now it's like, how do you deliver the value for them and give them an analog experience?

Michelle Finn: Yes. I mean, that's, I mean, I think it's interesting, you know, that's how we started. But again, you know, magazine publishers didn't do trade shows. You know,

Yeah

And hotels are looking at it. Maybe, maybe Chip Conley was the first one, I can't remember. Uh, you know, when he was doing... He would look at something like Rolling Stones or The New Yorker, and would be, you know, what is the magazine's personality?

What is the brand about? Who are the type of people that read the magazine? And then building a hotel to meet that need

Dan Ryan: Now, was your whole group... Did you all select Garden and Guns? 'Cause I have an English setter that I think would

[00:57:00] look great in there.

Michelle Finn: Right.

Dan Ryan: He, he's a very beautiful dog. His name's Monty. He's, his looks are inversely im- uh, propor- uh, inversely proportional to his intelligence, but he look, he's really cute. But if I were to give, if you had a magazine that you had to ma- that you c- had the ability to turn into a hotel unencumbered, just here, pick your favorite magazine and go, what would yours be?

Michelle Finn: Oh, I think I would do Vogue.

Dan Ryan: Nice

Michelle Finn: was vetoed on that one. Uh, but that was, going back to the dinner party, the, the gardening guns was, that was sort of like the... It wasn't unanimous, but that was the majority rule on that one.

Love it

thought like, what would a Vogue hotel look like? I think that's sort of interesting,

Hmm.

Where your creativ- You know, it's like, it, I just think, oh, not that I could build a hotel, a Vogue hotel, but of curiosity, what would that look like? You'd get a lot of fashion models, which means you'd get a lot of other people, I think. It

Dan Ryan: Totally

Michelle Finn: know what it would look like? South Beach in the early days

Dan Ryan: Yeah. I think if I were gonna build a [00:58:00] hotel, I would want it to be like a library.

Michelle Finn: Ooh

Dan Ryan: I love libraries, I love bookstores. I actually have a picture of library and bookstores up above my camera here because at some point I want to have that.

Like

and I feel...

Michelle Finn: hotel?

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Something where people can come together and explore ideas and exchange ideas and just learn from each other.

In, uh, what I love about libraries is they're kind of just, they're quiet, they're solemn, and I don't know, they're very introspective and I, I just, I love them.

Michelle Finn: Great idea.

Dan Ryan: Thank you.

Michelle Finn: You're welcome

Dan Ryan: Now I just need a couple mil-- uh, couple 20 to $50 million to get going. So

Michelle Finn: Sure.

Dan Ryan: let's go

Michelle Finn: know what hotel did a g- fairly good job of that? Maybe the '60s, '70s, was the Chateau Marmont

Dan Ryan: Oh, yeah

Michelle Finn: LA. you know, that was Dominick [00:59:00] Dunne's hangout.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

Michelle Finn: he was a writer. We wrote several books, but a writer for Vanity Fair, and, uh, a former editor-in-chief, Michael Adams, that was his favorite place to go

Dan Ryan: Oh, wow. They have good martinis there

Michelle Finn: But I don't know why the literary people... I mean, it wasn't like you walk in and it looks like a library.

Dan Ryan: I don't know. I feel like it's in, in Hollywood and there are probably a lot of writers and screenwriters and authors, and everyone was there having a good time with all, with all the A-listers. So again, that har- that ties into your, your Vogue hotel as well. Um, well, Michelle, this has been lovely. I've been wanting to do this and so excited to do this for such a long time.

If people wanted to learn more about Alice Design or what you got going on at Cala or connect with you, what's a good way for them to, to connect and reach out?

Michelle Finn: Oh, uh, Dan, um, anybody can visit our si- website. That's Alice Design Plus, plus is spelled out, you can email me [01:00:00] anytime

Dan Ryan: Cool. And, uh, are you, uh, active on, on LinkedIn as well?

Michelle Finn: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Okay, I'll put, uh, we'll put that up there as well. And again, I definitely, everyone, if you're in LA, planning to go to LA, if it's really, really cold somewhere in January, go to LA. It's awesome. Um, I used to... What I love about going to Alice and Alice Design Plus is I went to USC just down the street there, and I used to just deliver food on the weekends, or nights and weekends to all the office buildings in downtown LA, and it was before Uber Eats.

Y- all these law firms and accounting firms and everyone that was there would fax in their orders to, like, a central fax machine, and then you'd be waiting and you'd get the order. You'd go to whatever re- it was like Uber Eats before Uber Eats. And, uh, to see how much it's changed 30 years later is just

Michelle Finn: know

Dan Ryan: And I still know all the streets, all, all the streets and all the numbers and the grid, and it's pretty awesome. But it's cool to see the transformation of downtown LA

Michelle Finn: I think so too. And [01:01:00] but U- UCLA, uh, not UCLA, USC is downtown

Dan Ryan: Yes. No, it was right down Figueroa, so it's right there. Um, but again, Michelle, this has been lovely. Thank you.

Michelle Finn: you

Dan Ryan: you all the success. If you haven't looked into Alice or Alice Design Plus, uh, uh, just check it out. The, the links are in the notes. Ch- come to LA, we'll all be there. We will embrace you. We will have food truck...

I don't know. They have so many great things, and we'll have Jeff Higley come and have Korean tacos with us. So how about that?

Michelle Finn: Fabulous.

Dan Ryan: Great. All right, Michelle. Uh, and thank you to all of our listeners. Hopefully this gave you a different perspective on what makes our industry great, and also the relationships that drive everything.

So be sure to pass this along to someone who might be on the fence about going to Alice or any other conference. Also, don't forget to subscribe and like and do all those things, but we'll catch you next time. Thank you very much

[01:02:00]