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In RONderings, Ron talks to his guests about their superpowers, including career advice, diversity, mindset, wellness, and leadership. Ron grew up in New York City, and has been coaching and leading executive searches for the last five years, taking what he has learned from 15 years in corporate, higher education, government, and non-profit contexts. He and his wife are obsessed with reality television, and Ron also moonlights as a men's personal stylist and group fitness instructor. Ron says, "I believe in the power of intuition and deepening one’s self-awareness and impact on others. I believe in the power of connection and transparency. I believe that we must dismantle systems of oppression and racism to recover our fullest humanity. Most of all, I believe our power to change the world starts from changing ourselves first."
What's up? I'm Ron Rapatalo, and this is the Ronderings podcast. Around here, I sit down with guests for real, unpolished conversations about the lessons and values that shaped them. And I'll be right there with you, sharing my own take, laughing at myself when I need to, and wondering out loud about this messy thing called life. Glad you pulled up a chair.
Ron Rapatalo:Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode of Ronderings where we dive into real stories that move us and make us think. Today, I'm joined by Jessica Muñoz, a board certified psychotherapist, visible survivor of gender based violence, and one of the fiercest advocates I've gotten to know. Jessica's journey from surviving domestic violence to becoming a national leader in trauma informed advocacy is powerful. We talk about her work with sanctuary families, what trauma informed hospitality really means, and how she turns her lived experience into healing for others.
Ron Rapatalo:This one's about resilience, purpose, and what it means to live with your scars, not hide them. Let's get into it. Hey, I'm putting together a book with about 10 to 12 people who are tired of how leadership gets talked about, lived out right now, actually wanna say something real about it. It's called Leadership in a Time of Chaos. I'm not trying to make money off it, just covering costs.
Ron Rapatalo:If you got a perspective, a story, or something you feel needs to be said, hit me up. Love to have you be one of the voices in it. Ronderings Universe. I have another another another another another amazing guest here on Ronderings. My new friend Jessica Muñoz, who's a board certified psychotherapist and owns her own business, the business of healing.
Ron Rapatalo:Welcome Jessica. How are you doing?
Jessica Muñoz:Thank you. Yes. It's great to be here. Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. It's great to be have you on the on the pod. So you know one of my early guests on Ronderings, Tina Tang. And I wanna shout out Tina Tang for introducing the two of us, and I was asking her in previous Ronderings guests for referrals. So remind me again how you and Tina met.
Jessica Muñoz:So I did a program called Strength is MINE or Muscles inspires new empower empowerment MINE. Tina, it's a trauma informed strength training program.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:So I identify as a visible survivor of gender based violence. And that's how I got on this program. It's free. It's for anybody who identifies as a survivor. This wonderful lady, Diana Scortese runs that.
Jessica Muñoz:And Tina was one of the trainers who had signed up to train survivors and introduce us to lifting weights. And it's for all levels. I started as a, like total beginner, did not know what I was doing and you could probably see some kettlebell, half a kettlebell in my background. Two, three years later.
Ron Rapatalo:You didn't tell me you were gonna have a kettlebell, I would have brought my heavy kettlebell and like put it here. I had my arm on it. I'm like, oh, why is my arm giving way? I'm like, oh, because I'm leaning on a 36 kilogram kettlebell.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. So, yeah, I remember Tina was like, pick it. It's I remember her being you know, she's a great I you know that she's a great trainer, but I would like everybody to know she's not just a great trainer. She's naturally trauma informed. And she really paved the way for me being in the gym and feel comfortable.
Jessica Muñoz:And then I, like, stalked her after and went to her small group class because I, like, had this woman crush on her because I was, like, so grateful to her. So I absolutely love love her and her training style.
Ron Rapatalo:It's nice to find folks like Tina that leads, like, an intentionally inclusive class. I've been witness to that, like, where I work out with her. And so I'm glad you've been able to experience that as well, Jessica. Yeah. Alright.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, let's get into it. What's your story?
Jessica Muñoz:What's my story? So as you heard, you know, briefly when we talked about Tina, I am this, like, visible survivor of gender based violence. So what that really means for people who, you know, we may be hearing this term gender based violence, it covers a lot of different forms of violence. For me personally, I'm a survivor of domestic violence and sexual assault in the setting of domestic violence. And something that I'd like to point out is I'm also an expert in re traumatising systems designed to help.
Jessica Muñoz:What that means is after I went through this violence I then was introduced to a second phase of trauma that people don't realise which is when you seek help. So I was made homeless. I had to go through criminal courts in Manhattan as a survivor slash victim slash witness. I went through family court in Manhattan and child services too. And these are, you know, eventually led a pathway to justice, which I'm grateful for, but there's a really high price to pay that comes with that.
Jessica Muñoz:So that's a big piece of my story and how I identify. I'm a first generation immigrant too. And I came to New York almost twenty five years ago. Yeah, you know, you know, there's another piece of my identity is you can see my t shirt immigrants created everything. I'm very big into, you know, discussing that status as a first gen immigrant because we don't know the city that definitely played into my gender based violence story.
Jessica Muñoz:I'm a survivor leader I should add with an organisation called Sanctuary for Families So they are the leading legal service provider for gender based violence survivors in the nation. They have their own staff attorneys and they do pro bono partnerships with all the big law firms across the country. So survivor leader means that I use my lived experience to welcome more survivors in and make them feel comfortable using the services. Survivor leadership is reinvestment and respect for lived experience and cultural expertise and ensuring that that is given intellectual credit and financial credit. So it's really framing the survivor as the expert which is a big piece of my story and who I am and how I move.
Ron Rapatalo:Right. Jessica, I'm curious because I didn't ask you this when we had our first conversation. What country or countries did you do you come from before having come to New York City twenty five years ago? Just curious.
Jessica Muñoz:So I'm originally I grew up in Scotland, which really confuses people because I have this Hispanic last name. I'm like, what is going on with this woman? Some of my family here are Dominican. Happy to. But my accent has watered down greatly from when I when I first came from Scotland.
Jessica Muñoz:No one could understand me.
Ron Rapatalo:You know, the one image that I have, unfortunately, of, a Scottish accent, and you're probably gonna know where I'm gonna go, is, like, groundskeeper Willie from The Simpsons. Simpsons. Right? That's what I'm like. I'm like, she she does not sound like groundskeeper Willie.
Ron Rapatalo:So
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. No. No one could understand me. I moved up to West Harlem.
Ron Rapatalo:Ah, okay.
Jessica Muñoz:It was very different. This is in the just right around well, early two thousand, right around 09:11. Yeah. And it was still like stop and frisk at
Ron Rapatalo:the time. It was a
Jessica Muñoz:really different place. And I was very it's not the gentrified Harlem that it is now.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Jessica Muñoz:And I had to really kinda you know, it was a big adjustment for me. And whenever I made a phone call, nobody knew what I was doing. So things things have changed but that usually people mistake me that like are you Australian or like New Zealand like what is that? My family some of them are still up there. I moved away from there after I went through some things.
Jessica Muñoz:I'm in a different borough now
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:But still in New York.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that because it's the context is always, like, helpful. So you said something that I wanna, like, get into more, this idea of re traumatizing systems, right, that when you were you've been a survivor of gender based violence, that entering these systems for justice, you were trauma re traumatized again. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:So in my head, I was like, I wonder if the statement that is part of our justice system. Right? Innocent until proven guilty. How much of that butts up against survivors like you of gender based violence having to prove to the system that you are a you were victimized. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:So I'm curious, like, what that means to, like, have these systems better support survivors of gender based violence and then, I think, by extension, anyone that's been a survivor of violence.
Jessica Muñoz:Absolutely. Thank you for that question. Gives me a great opportunity to talk about, you know, this survivor expertise and cultural expertise because that's what will make the change. Right now, we are up against what I would call patriarchy on steroids in the courts is the only way to talk about it is that these courts are not literate in the language of trauma. Right?
Jessica Muñoz:So they really don't understand what rape is, what coercive control is, what consent is. I'm talking judges, civil attorneys, prosecutors, DAs, all of them, to be honest with you. A big piece of it is patriarchy links in because law and things is a field that's really founded and rooted in patriarchy, just like, you know, the medical model is, and psychology, but particularly law, and that means that people take on traits to survive that arena, which I don't blame them for, in a way, right? You know, you have to take on certain traits and and it becomes an unconscious way of moving and they do not realise that and unlike me, you know, I I'm in the field of applied psychology. Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:So to get my licence, I am forced to do this supervision, which is essentially a self inventory of all the emotional baggage, all crap that I bring in, my life stories into my work, and I have to examine how is that gonna touch when I do an assessment on someone. Because we know the data says the cultural identity of the provider of any provider, the healthcare provider, mental health law greatly interprets the greatly impacts interpretations of assessment. So the issue that we're really facing overall is that lawyers in particular, law enforcement just believe that they're immune to this. They do not respect the field of mental health as well. So even though that we're in grad school too and we're jumping through all these hoops to do our thing, there just is not really, unfortunately, a respect for it.
Jessica Muñoz:I think it's social workers and cardigans and we're in flooded basements and this kind of like so when I teach trauma informed, which is what I do as part of my consulting business, I say, hey, I want everything looking beautiful, right? And people are like, oh, here we go, this woman just wants to make everything look pretty and she thinks it's going to be beautiful therapy. I'm like, no, I need the room looking, smelling great because that counters that institutionalization vibe. Right? So, you know, that jail like vibe that a lot of places have, like courts, shelters for domestic Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:Yes.
Ron Rapatalo:Many government institutions has a similar sort of, like, feel. Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:Exactly. And they're not jails. The only place that's jail is jail. Yet court looks like hospital inpatient psych looks like a jail. They're treated like jail.
Jessica Muñoz:Domestic violence shelters. I was in one. Was I had a curfew. I had to argue to go to my I worked in the ER at the time that I had to please, can I go to my night job? And and I've been so this this these are the things that I think a lot of people don't realize survivors are up against when they're just using the systems.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. That you're you have to ask for extra above and beyond permission to be able to live your life while you're trying to get justice inside of the system that is having you and I'll use my words, and I want you to take this and give detail to it Mhmm. By nature is not gonna believe your story from the get, right, is is sort of what I I'm taking from this, right, is like there's an extra above and beyond you having to prove your story as a survivor of gender based violence because of the patriarchy built in the system that says you're gonna have to go beyond beyond the shadow of the doubt. Whatever that bar is, you have to go above that bar in order to prove.
Jessica Muñoz:You do. And, obviously, you know, I'm running with I ran with some privilege in the the whiteness is the obvious one. So you can imagine. We know as well that things like I call it family policing, aka child services. We know that black and brown families in particular are great to discriminate against and we actually have data on it now but we knew.
Jessica Muñoz:You know, and I knew that from my work in the children's hospital professionally too. I saw it left and right and, you know these are this is what's going on and so it really it's hard for survivors and a lot of people don't realise I mean I remember a DA saying to me oh we'll get you a hotel' I was like 'There is no hotel.' And when you go through this, it's the people of New York versus the perpetrator. The survivor has no choice in the prosecution, which is good because it prevents victim intimidation, but it also means that we really have no no control. I mean, I was subpoenaed to cooperate because I I was scared. I didn't want to.
Jessica Muñoz:You know, was scared for my life, but people don't realize you really have everything pulled from under you and no control, and it's very hard.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your like, I wanna get to the business of healing a little bit. Right? Because I think that's a like, there there's a practice that I'm really curious about because it works in spaces that may not seem obvious to folks that your expertise really needs, right? But in reshaping the system, tell me a little bit about what your advocacy and some of the shifts in the way the system have been moved through your advocacy and and and what work that you've done?
Jessica Muñoz:There's a few. I mean, there's a few that we work on as a collective right now. We have Kyra's Law is one that I'm doing supporting through Sanctuary for Families. That was a a a girl who was two years old who was unfortunately murdered on a supervised visit.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh,
Jessica Muñoz:And so that was more than a decade ago, and we're still fighting in New York. We're still fighting for Governor Hochul to sign off on Kyra's Law which is to have better assessments of supervised visits. So right now
Ron Rapatalo:in
Jessica Muñoz:New York anybody can be what they call a forensic evaluator. Say if I wanted to do it I could just you know self assign myself as a therapist which isn't right because you know That's odd!
Ron Rapatalo:Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:This is a little known thing and then you know the pay right now is I think $30 an hour which is below the market rate for someone who's not licensed so it's not going to attract expertise right it's it's treated as it's not valued where work with children and families isn't valued So that's one example. Other things that we're working on is really just working on this trauma literacy and for me I'm also interested in not only bringing it to law but to hospitality. So I have this thing, trauma informed hospitality, it was actually partly inspired with the MINE programme that I did with, you know, I I was in the gym and I was like, you know, this is comfortable. I I I'm seeing a a hospitable space presented in a different way. And then I, you know, obviously seeing the the Diddy and the Cassie, the that case was, you know, we all saw that video.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Jessica Muñoz:And that happened in a hotel, and this person took a $100,000 to a shush buddy that worked at the hotel and and that's unacceptable. Yeah. So that, you know, there's ways, you know, violence is ideally interrupted early. And and my argument is we do these ridiculous, you know, quid pro, we've watched the same video from like the nineties, right, with this sexual harassment training. We're all doing it still, right?
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, horrible.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah, here we go with that stupid video again. And, you know, sexual harassment, yes, it's very important to combat that but generally speaking it doesn't kill. So gender based violence, things like domestic violence, sexual assault, it can be lethal and we know it is especially domestic violence And that's what I'm really passionate about. I want to bring that training and that's what Businesses Healing does is bringing that to workplaces. And that's a great segue to mention Bridesmarch too, who I do work with.
Jessica Muñoz:So Bridesmarch is the most important grassroots event in domestic violence awareness in the city. Everybody please follow them bridesmarch Instagram. Because it's run by families, it's not run by an agency, it's not run by law enforcement, it is run by families who have lost women to domestic violence so femicide. Gladys Ricardo was sadly murdered on her wedding day 1999, in her wedding dress by an abuser ex boyfriend and she was Dominican American. So it started off, you know, and my family are part of the Dominican community here, so it started off with a focus on that.
Jessica Muñoz:Then it brought in Latina women as the focus but it's about all women too, it's all women. And so that again kind of links to my work with educating workplaces because this stuff is lethal. Just had Antonella Lisazo, who was murdered in the Bronx last September of this year. This is happening. It keeps happening.
Jessica Muñoz:I I don't even wanna mention any more names because it's I can't respectfully name everybody because it's that many.
Ron Rapatalo:Happened in Jersey City, like, up the block from where my family lives. There was a Latina woman, I believe she was a teacher Mhmm. In I don't wanna name in Jersey City, but I think so, but I I don't remember the full story. But Mhmm. Her ex boyfriend, if I remember the story, took on a ride and that she was murdered.
Ron Rapatalo:I it was just like, you hear like, these stories, unfortunately, I think are way too common from, like, just the snippets of news that I get from Mhmm. Local news. Right? And I think zooming out, right, then when I've talked to police officers that I know in the area, you know, the amount of domestic violence, like, cases that happen in areas that like, in Newport and other area, it's higher than I I don't wanna say it ever happened. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Because I don't know the full data. But certainly, I think when COVID hit, I I think when I was asking some of my my cop friends, it was like, oh, yeah. People say that domestic violence incidents have gotten higher.
Jessica Muñoz:They they did. And it's good that you mentioned, you know, certain areas. I know my area in West Harlem, that ZIP code is it's a traditionally a high crime area, and that affects the response, right? You know, domestic violence, oh it's another one, that's what those people do, know, it's disgusting but it's something again that needs to be spoken to, it means the response is often slower. You know, I'm super grateful for police and their response.
Jessica Muñoz:Don't get me wrong. Yes. Super grateful. But I would like to spend more time with them face to face and having conversations like you and I are right now, you know, in in in these kind of and and that's not happening, you know, and just say, hey, let's talk about this, you know, what what is going on instead of, like, oh, you know, us and them, law enforcement and mental health, they're so soft. And no.
Ron Rapatalo:Do those kinds of I'm I'm guess I'm answering this question in my head, but I imagine those kinds of that trauma informed training doesn't happen in law enforcement currently or as deep as it could. Correct? I I can't.
Jessica Muñoz:I'm gonna say correct because I think what I've seen is the cultural expertise is not being utilized. And if it is, it's done in a tokenizing way, not not a we are equal way. Right, which I really take exception to. And it's not being compensated properly either. You need to compensate somebody like they're a technical expert in the field, not just roll them in, showpony them to tell their victim story, bleed all over everybody.
Jessica Muñoz:That's not a training. Right? That's kind of how they're doing it right now. And and Right. Know, it's it's not
Ron Rapatalo:Trauma porn, quote unquote. Yeah. Mhmm.
Jessica Muñoz:Yes. There's lot of trauma porn going on. Yeah. And I laugh because it's just, know, I've been subject to that. And I don't mind telling enjoy telling the story for the greater good.
Jessica Muñoz:But I like to see it done for the right reason, you know? And yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your business of healing practice. Right? Because you mentioned bringing trauma informed practices into not only hospitality, but, like which includes gyms. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Because you and I met through our good friend, you know, fitness trainer, Tina Tang
Jessica Muñoz:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm curious around tell the audience your perspective of, like, why that's needed in hospitality, particularly gyms and some of the work you're doing to make these places more trauma informed.
Jessica Muñoz:So it's it's really the premise is that, you know, things like the gym and especially the barbell section in general is that did have and not in Tina's case, but traditionally machismo kind of, you know, this sort of image or at least did to persons like me. Right? You know, a lot of the men that I was around formally sold it to me like that, that I didn't belong there, that I had no chance of lifting any weight because I was, you know, just just stupidity that I know now. But I actually believed it. And, you know, that's one piece.
Jessica Muñoz:So the idea is that it's really empowering, especially for anybody, but especially a survivor to go in there. And I remember Diana who went to program was like, take up space. It was so funny. You know, she's yelling at
Ron Rapatalo:me like, fuck
Jessica Muñoz:it. It really that is very therapeutic actually for for a survivor. It really is. So there's there's that bit. And then the other pieces that we which I think, you know, everybody who is into the gym and has been lifting weights for a long time knows that we release the emotions into the iron.
Jessica Muñoz:Right? That's a percent. Yeah. And we need we know that especially when we go through things like sexual trauma, often there's a disconnection from the mind from the body. Dissociation literally means to sever the mind from the body.
Jessica Muñoz:So we really do need to invite literally the mind back to the body and lifting weights and trauma informed strength training presented that way for me it has been personally as a survivor more powerful just as powerful, if not more, as talk therapy. And here I am a talk therapist saying that. Right? And I know, you know, a lot of people who've been, you know, lifting for a long time know that very well, right, in their own way. But it's really illuminating it for others and presenting it in a certain way so that we can really get that benefit.
Ron Rapatalo:Quick thing. There's a referral only mastermind happening through speakers that matter, and I get to send a few impact driven people their way. I'm being pretty intentional, though. I'm not just sending anybody. This isn't one of those webinar situations where you leave with a few notes and move on.
Ron Rapatalo:It's for people serious about getting clear on their message and actually putting it out into the world. That sounds like you, hit me up or check out speakersthatmatter.com. Tell them I sent you. Yeah. So I wanna shout out where you met where I met Tina Tang.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I work out with her at Ironman Performance Athletic. Shout out to Joshua Thevez, who's the head owner there. And I go to barbell club. So this is, like, firsthand experience as, like, one of the more senior members of that barbell club Monday.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Like, Tuesday and Thursdays is when I go nine to eleven is it is a very female friendly barbell club. In fact, most of the folks I work out with in barbell club are women. And I have to say as a man, I prefer working out with women in barbell club than men, generally speaking. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:The the there's a handful of us guys that work out there, and it's fine. We have to, like I think what I've noticed in terms of that culture is we have to fit into that vibe rather than the other way around. Right? You know? Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:And, yes, there's some grunting in other things, but everyone is serious and everyone, like, roots each other on. Right? Which I take as a cis hetero male as something that is more I have found more in more heavily female environments, female led environments. Right? Which is Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:But our head coach is a male. Right? But I think Josh has always been very empathetic like that. Right? And so it's one of those things I think some of the I guess the question I would ask you, Jessica, because this gets me curious.
Ron Rapatalo:Like, if we were to redesign, like, the barbell scene or a gym to be something that's more trauma informed? Like, what does that look like aside from having a coach like Josh who just cares like that? Right? Because I you know, in my head, you don't put a system on a person because that's not a that's not a system. That's just put on the leadership of a person, which is super helpful, mind you.
Ron Rapatalo:But I think there's more to it than that.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. I think it's relationships really, and building trust. So I set foot in that gym because of the trust I'd built with Tina. Right? So, you know, I built rapport with Tina from doing the program, and then I she said, you know what?
Jessica Muñoz:I do this small group thing. You could probably you know, you could keep up and, you know, she's convincing me. I'm like, do think I could do it? And, you know, it's like that. I'm like, yes.
Jessica Muñoz:And then after the small group thing, I'm like, okay, then I'm okay in this this gym. So I really believe that it's you know, the relationship is the vehicle to healing. And and just, you know, knowing people on, you know, hey. Let me introduce you to this person. And, hey.
Jessica Muñoz:Just a quick hello. Hi. Okay. I saw them the other day. I feel sick.
Jessica Muñoz:And that's kinda how it worked out with me, training in Jersey City. I was like, oh, these people? You know, she'd introduced me to a couple of people, and I was like, okay. This I feel okay here. You know, that's all it took.
Jessica Muñoz:And then I felt I was able to feel the vibe too. And that gym, by the way, has a great vibe. It's hard to put my finger on it exactly what what it is, if you know what I mean. It's something about the energy when you walk in.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah, it's right. I can't do
Jessica Muñoz:you know what I mean? I mean, I think you do because you
Ron Rapatalo:know, I went there pre covid. I've got I just I'm, you know,
Jessica Muñoz:like the energy is just correct there. And, you know, but acknowledging that, I think maybe I'm glad that we're publicizing that about that place because people you know, if anyone's listening, I'm looking for a gym that feels trauma informed. It feels right. Hey, that's that's one. Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:You know? And and labeling it such. I told that to Tina. Was like, you're a trauma informed trainer. She was like, what?
Jessica Muñoz:I was like, you're a trauma
Ron Rapatalo:informed trainer. You said that. Right? That the relationships, it's something that I I think why you and I connected, why Tina and I connected, like, on a deep level because social connection and relationships as trust currency or something I think the three of us, Josh and his ownership of Iron Brown Performance Athletics, all the trainers there, like, it's just something that I think people care about. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:I think it it Yes. It becomes a criterion for, like, people who are wanna hang and work out It's sort of like that's who we are. Right? And it's something I think about in my own work. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:You know? Is relation like, building trust is ask like, starting off this podcast and getting to know your story, being really curious and asking questions. Right? Because it allows layers. I think for me, the essence of, like, building relationships is asking questions to get to know someone better.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Mhmm. And letting that level of curiosity and somewhat and then you sharing a little bit too. Right? For me, there's like a a natural back and forth.
Ron Rapatalo:And what I find that, like, I think if I were to put IP back in this, right, is the nature of us having to spot each other. Mhmm. Right? Whether it's spotting someone's weight on the bench press, spotting someone being very intimate on a squat. That's a very intimate thing to do to spot someone on a squat, by the way.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. This is basically, for lack of a better term, you're like really right behind them. You have to like almost hug them if they have the like, if they can't lift the weight. That, you, you bet, I, I better trust you. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:If I'm, you know, and so there's just a level of like, and then I I think it's just then all the conversation that we have around technique and other things. Right? Because I I don't know if anybody's ever, like, been around barbells, but when you're lifting Mhmm. Weights, there's more rest period than there is lifting. I don't think people realize that unless they actually go to that.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And so you have a lot of downtime. So what do you do with that downtime? We kinda just talk. You know, it's really funny.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? It's just like, you know, sometimes I I'll get tunnel vision, but I when I start getting chatty, it's just like, yeah. You just start talking about things. Right? And I think that relationship builds a certain level of like, oh, these are good people that I trust and, like, wanna work out with.
Ron Rapatalo:And it just adds that element of, like, it's I would say our reputation as, like, a class, it's the more social club class in IPA versus the other ones. Right? Because it's there's an incredible amount of downtime compared to workout time versus the other classes, which is like, go, go, go. When there's downtime, it's usually the trainer explaining what you have to do before you do set things. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:And so it it creates a different culture, therefore, I think Mhmm. By design, you're building relationship with people and talking per se.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. But even not being in the classes that you do, I still benefit from them by just the vibe that's cultivated in the gym. Somebody in that gym is they're good at building relationships, the leadership there. That's that that is I think we nailed it. Right?
Jessica Muñoz:That's, like, very apparent. No. It's true. It's beautiful. Building expert there, not just, someone with expertise in in in fitness, you know, that that is part of it.
Jessica Muñoz:And if you're really gonna have, I think, a successful gym overall, but also a trauma informed one, you you've gotta be good at this relationship building thing. If you're good at that, then
Ron Rapatalo:yeah. Mhmm. Well, let's extend that because I saw earlier in your bio that you used to work at SoHo House. Right? And so I imagine you had some experience there about, you know, what it could look like, should should not look like.
Ron Rapatalo:And so tell me when you are, like, in hospitality, which I think people often think might be a restaurant or a hotel, like, what does trauma informed practice look like inside of those establishments?
Jessica Muñoz:Well, it doesn't look like what it was in the SoHo House when I worked there in early two thousand. So the Soho House was, you know, this arts and media members only thing. It was meant to be exclusive at the time. And it was just, you know, it was I think like I remember Jude Law had a party there with with his kids and there was an ecstasy pill on the floor and one of the three year olds at it. I mean, that that was that was not trauma informed hospitality.
Jessica Muñoz:Oh
Ron Rapatalo:my Jesus.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. Was crazy. That's one of my memories there. It was not, but, you know, and actually that's how I got with my ex partner there too because it was a pretty racist place too. You know, he was born and raised in New York.
Jessica Muñoz:He was excellent at what he did. And he was for whatever reason not in leadership because it a racist place. So trauma informed hospitality is, you know, I take some elements from there but I learned very smooth service and being very at your service. I learned that, from my ex partner actually who who had really worked at, places like Nell's. I don't know if people know that.
Jessica Muñoz:Like, we Oh
Ron Rapatalo:my goodness. Let's there for a second. If anyone is in New York or from the eighties, not oh my. Nell's? Oh, I I have the picture in my head of walking up for rest in peace, Nell's.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh my god. That was this. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:So I wasn't at that, but I was around people. So I was trained by people from that that scene, you know, and I learned
Ron Rapatalo:I really learned,
Jessica Muñoz:like, this is what nightlife is. This is what hospitality is. And, you know, and we are really we take it serious and it's a craft, right? And I really learned that except the only thing that dulled it was that gender based violence unfortunately was normalised in the workplace as well. So you kind of had to get used to to that.
Jessica Muñoz:So I take that that showmanship, if you like, and that that that smoothness, anybody who's been in working in place like now, you're very smooth. If you work in a places like this, you are so smooth. And and that's what I I try to bring that when I am I'm training people in how to be trauma informed. I'm meeting you at the door. Right?
Jessica Muñoz:You know, if I'm I think Tina used to do this with me. Right? I'll go to the gym first. She's waiting for me at the door. It's like we're on a date.
Jessica Muñoz:You know? I'm waiting for you outside without the romance, you know. And she's, you know, can I can I can I do this? Can I do you know, she's asking, you know, giving me menu options all the time? What do you want to do?
Jessica Muñoz:And she planned the session well. So that's really, you know, a big piece of how how that can look. It if it's it's it's just smooth.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. I think what I'm hearing from that, Jessica, is a level of just attentiveness, right, to someone's needs from the get. Right? Greeting them at the door, already having a very well planned session. So it's something that you have to, like, think about the person needs beforehand, but also be able to adjust on the fly based on what the person is bringing the door at that time.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Because I think what I've learned when I've I see group fitness classes. I haven't done it in a minute, but it's something that I it's one of the joys of my life when I taught group fitness classes for, like, over the last twenty years. Right? Is this level of, like, having a plan and creating an experience that people could enjoy.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? Yeah. And creating that space and being able to one of the things that I think Tina does really well, that's something that I try to do when I would teach classes, is give each person some level of feedback, whether it was constructive or praise. Because it mattered to me. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Because if you're there and all you're doing is kinda doing your thing, and I don't, like, get to know, like, why are you gonna come back other than, like, you don't need a group class if you're gonna just do your thing. Right? No. Even it's like, I love your form here. That's great.
Ron Rapatalo:Blah blah blah. I love how you're bringing your need to whatever that is. Right? Oh, well, the person's noticing. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Because I think when you notice somebody doing their thing or you build a relationship to say, can I help you? Can I can I show you something to help you do that a little bit better?
Jessica Muñoz:Mhmm. It's it's also pushing people too. It's I mean, informed is rock solid boundaries. That's what a lot of people forget. And I when I was speaking to the personal trainers on that program, did like a little training for them on the trauma piece.
Jessica Muñoz:I said, you know, it's not all, yes, the menu options and and and that chivalry ish without the the romance factor, but also, you know, you're pushing people. I mean, Tina would say to me, was like, that kettlebell is not a purse, Jess. Like, come on. What are you doing? Like, you know, she she she would tell you know, like, she would just be straight up.
Ron Rapatalo:Is that an iron purse? Really?
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. She was like, that is not a purse. Like, what are you doing? And, you know, and I mean, she'd build a rapport and some trust with me. And then once she'd done that, she was like, I'm gonna go in on this woman.
Jessica Muñoz:I want her to do to do better with this. I want her to to push her and and I thrived like that you know and and I got a lot stronger and and so yeah it's also like yeah it's it's it's put you know it's build the rapport, earn the trust, build that relationship. Oh, but, you know, you strict boundaries. We're gonna push you a bit too. We're not gonna hey.
Jessica Muñoz:I don't feel like it's a day. We're gonna lean into that that regular practice.
Ron Rapatalo:You know what that reminds me of? Like, when you said Nells, you know, I always associated Nells in my head. I'm sure that the the service and the food and the drink are great. I always associate it with the music. For me, the vibe of, like, going to a really good club and lounge.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? I think of some of the most transformative experience I've ever had in New York City nightlife was the DJ playing music at the right time.
Jessica Muñoz:Mhmm.
Ron Rapatalo:And just how that, like, would set it off and have you feel that vibe, and you could be transformed and just moved to, like, different places. Right? For me, that's there's a magic of, like, that that I I you know, I I sort of, you know, go tell people, like, when I when I worked at an IPA, certain music comes on. I'm like, I start, like, shimmying and doing my thing. It's like, y'all don't know.
Ron Rapatalo:It was like, boy, if y'all would have met, like, two thousands, Ron, in my clubbing days, oh
Jessica Muñoz:wee. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's that's like Tina does good music too. She's like Gen X.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. You know? Yeah. And and she gets the Spanish music on too, which I like too. And, you know She does.
Jessica Muñoz:That that is trauma informed too. And that is that's how we bring our and culture is not just obviously, you know, our race, our country of origin. It is like, what are the parts of our identity do we belong to? And it's like, well, one of mine is like old New York nightlife. Used you know, that was a thing.
Jessica Muñoz:That was a time.
Ron Rapatalo:It was. I mean, it's something I mean, it it seems like my watch look. I'm a father and a husband. I don't do nightlife like that anymore. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:So I just don't know. You. My take of from afar is that nightlife in 2025 has shifted tremendously. I think COVID had a really big like, a a lot of these businesses didn't thrive after COVID. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:And so, you know, the things that, like, I remember around nightlife and being able to, like, you know, Bob's and all these spots and all my eyes. Oh, I have stories. Look at the lounge. Like, I mean, I was a big East Village like hangout guy. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:And so Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:Unfortunately, it's changed. I mean, you know, people are doing their thing, I think. But Yeah. It it's changed vastly. Right?
Jessica Muñoz:But there we go. Yeah.
Ron Rapatalo:Alright. Check this out. Quick aside. If you're sitting on an idea, a message, or something you know matters that you haven't quite figured out how to get it out into the world, there's someone I'm gonna hook you up with, Dr. Kent. He's one of those people who really thinks with people, not just advice from the sidelines.
Ron Rapatalo:It's kind of his thing. Think about having a Clive Davis in your life. Check him out @talktoKent.com. So I'm curious, Jessica, before I get into my Ronderings question, so I'm gonna like pivot this. What do you do for your joy outside of what you do for work?
Ron Rapatalo:What what grounds Jessica outside of work that gives you joy?
Jessica Muñoz:It's a great question. So obviously, you know, I have two children. I'm a family person.
Ron Rapatalo:Beautiful. Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:That's the obvious one, spending time intentionally with family. But at the same time, I'm serious about retaining some of my own identity. I think an example would be last weekend I did a storytelling workshop And I didn't do that as a therapist me, I did that for me.
Ron Rapatalo:Nice. Okay.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah, it was great. And I did it with a group of adults. So I guess, know, it's adult time and we and I got creative and I realized, you know, I really enjoy being creative and tapping into that and with this no agenda except to be creative. And I think in these times now, I think no matter who you are, we're all just stupid busy. Like, kids know kids, whoever you are, it's just it just seems beyond.
Jessica Muñoz:Mhmm. So I think making time to be creative, that is a huge deal to me, and I plan on expanding on that And just and and maybe doing it in a group too is really nice too and being social.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Maybe you need your own podcast, Jessica. I don't know. I think you might no, Ron. I just like the storytelling groups.
Ron Rapatalo:No. No. No. No. That's you.
Ron Rapatalo:Right?
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. Tina, that would be fun. I mean, I, you know, I oh, I would think about that. You know? I think but it's a lot of work I've realized.
Jessica Muñoz:I've been like, going on as guest, I have more respect for people that do podcast now. It's actually Yeah. This feels effortless, but I know it's not, if that makes sense. Yeah. I think,
Ron Rapatalo:you know, for me, there's always I like to use the analogies of, like, people see what's above the water, like, tip of the iceberg, but it's all the stuff under that by design, the Ronderings pot I wanna get underneath the stuff that you don't see. Right? The story, the val like, because that's what's more interesting rather than yeah. I could read your website, Jessica, and see what you do, but, like, why do do what you do? How did you get there?
Ron Rapatalo:What have you learned? Like, for me, that then makes it stickier so that then you know, for me having the showcase of this podcast is elevating people's amazing stories and the work that they do and me using my curiosity in, like, decades of having interviewed people for jobs and bringing a lot of that experience to interviewing guests is not terribly dissimilar. Right? It's just, you know, I know how to prepare for things, but because I've done this for so long, the stuff that's underneath the iceberg is I just know how to be curious and ask lots of good questions and hold in my head multiple things at the same time and be able to know where to go based on, like, feel. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:It just
Jessica Muñoz:It's a skill, though, and it's not just for fun. This is fun, but I would like to see that utilized in workplaces, if you know what I mean, training such a thing like that. No. It's a skill.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. For sure. Mhmm. Well, Jessica, we're rounding out our time. So what is your Ronderings?
Ron Rapatalo:What's the lesson or value you wanna share today?
Jessica Muñoz:Perfect segue. Yes. My Ronderings is that stories the stories that we tell and and your story, it's not just for to for healing. So we don't just tell our story to heal. We don't tell our story to get empathy.
Jessica Muñoz:We tell it because it's necessary. Right? So I love this podcast and I Right. Love the premise that that that storytelling yeah. We had some fun today but these stories that you have are necessary and there's so many people who do not have your skills, who do not make a safe and inviting place to be like, hey, let's just talk and do not see the value in it and people are often valued especially survivors were valued is our story worth something?
Jessica Muñoz:Civil attorneys can I get some money out of this? Why I don't want know what you if I can't? Or prosecutors, you know, am I gonna get a conviction here? Yeah. Or it's not, you know, it does it's not lining up right, but that doesn't mean the story is any less valid.
Jessica Muñoz:And not just survivor stories, any story because
Ron Rapatalo:Right.
Jessica Muñoz:I say in my business, I expert in identifying trauma and expert in eliciting rich cultural narratives, and they are hidden in stories. You are trauma informed, Ron, by the way, in my opinion. Thank you.
Ron Rapatalo:You are. Yeah.
Jessica Muñoz:Very much, though, by the way. Everybody should know this if they're considering getting on talking on here, the prep, the setting, the expectation is done perfect. And that makes a great storytelling session, right, where we really get, like a richer you know, I've probably said more with you than I have in other, like, little interview things I've done, actually. And it really depends on on the vibe, I I feel. So, yeah, your story is, you know, it's necessary is what I'm telling everybody.
Jessica Muñoz:Am I allowed to do another add on, Ronderings? Do have time?
Ron Rapatalo:Told you in the great room, you could do it too. Come on, Jessica. Not for Ronderings. Here.
Jessica Muñoz:Yeah. Cheating. So that's that's a big one. And then my second one is patriarchy. It is not about men versus women.
Jessica Muñoz:Love men. Men are important members of family units and and much more than that. Right? Patriarchy is about unearned power. It is not men versus it's not hating on men.
Jessica Muñoz:Right? And I wanna really emphasize that. I, you know, I have a son who's a young adult.
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm.
Jessica Muñoz:Right. A young adult and, you know, it's it's not just about hit for him, I'm not gonna betray him, also I want I want us everybody to come together on this. You know, we're all when we're talking about dealing with patriarchy, gender based fans, we're trying to move move out these people out of the way who are greedy and entitled and didn't earn the power they have and are not using it right. That's really what I want to leave everybody with, know, and I'd love to see more spaces where, you know, we do a lot of survivor work and it's like survivors and, you know, we're trying to move forward with where we're targeting people who just families in general, right? So that we have people of all gender identities in the same room and it's not like them and us and, you know, we we so, yeah, I wanna emphasize to anyone, especially any men listening, you know, that we're we're, you know, we're all we're on the same side here.
Jessica Muñoz:Right? We really are. And it's it's really not about hating on men or telling them that they're wrong and inadequate. That's not it.
Ron Rapatalo:Yeah. Mhmm. Because I think it becomes one the thing that I, on my journey, I think I've realized for some time is that patriarchy hurts me as a cis hetero male, even though I at times benefit from patriarchy to be clear. I do. But to say that I don't is a lie.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? There are spaces like the default that I that's assumed because if I'm ultra confident or if I take up space, that people are gonna make space for me, men and women. Right? Because a lot of systems are very patriarchal in that respect. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:But I think Yes. What I've learned is that I didn't earn that. And I think that's the part that when then I've been myself a victim of, like, patriarchal systems, even as a sister or male, I'm like, wait. I didn't heard that. How does that that does something's not making sense sense here.
Ron Rapatalo:Right? And so for me, I think this all then ties to, like, if we are gonna live a society of liberation and of justice and equity. Right? You want people who put their best foot forward to be able to get what they get out of it. Right?
Ron Rapatalo:Rather than, like, you didn't earn it. You should and I think people sort of understand that, right, but don't wanna examine then how certain folks have been able to get to these, like, positions of power and influence and and just assume that well, they're there because they earned it, and oftentimes, they're not. I I just you know, I you know, it it it's an uncomfortable conversation people have. And I think I'm glad that we've had this because I think, you know, for us to have this conversation for me is when we were talking about it, you know, some weeks ago was just normalizing this like, we should be having this conversation.
Jessica Muñoz:We should. And it's also not only, you know, in the realm of gender based violence. It's it's you know, patriarchy doesn't directly cause it, but it's the hand that feeds and shields it. And it's also something that denies men, persons who identify as men, it denies them being in touch with emotions too.
Ron Rapatalo:Oh, that's a big yes. Thank you.
Jessica Muñoz:And we know as well the downstream effects of that Mind body one, right? Cardiovascular disease, obesity anybody, type two diabetes, we have the data. We're not kidding. You know? So I make money off that.
Jessica Muñoz:Men's health, come talk to me. What what poisons have you been using? Getting high? Risky stuff. Why?
Jessica Muñoz:You know, because you're not and then I get all the money, they gotta come and talk to me for an hour. Is great. I believe in therapy. But, you know, talking to another man about your feelings, for example, does not make you homosexual. You know, there's these stupid things going around like that as well.
Jessica Muñoz:So that's linked back to patriarchy. People don't realize that, you know, and it's, you know, so it's ruling health. And, you know, I wanted to say before I go as well, let's not forget the connection to colonial violence and gender based violence at large and patriarchy. There's that Yeah. That is big piece in in in 2025.
Jessica Muñoz:And I say it's not a dirty word. It's still happening.
Ron Rapatalo:Yes.
Jessica Muñoz:And I'm gonna say it, and I'm not frightened to. And I'll and, you know, this is a nice safe space. Thank you, Ron. You're right. Like, everybody, can we stay in our professional spaces too if we can?
Ron Rapatalo:Mhmm. Well, Jessica, how do people find you, and what would you like to promote before I let you go?
Jessica Muñoz:Oh, gosh. I would like to promote myself.
Ron Rapatalo:Okay. Yes.
Jessica Muñoz:Follow me, please. J Muñoz psychotherapy, like the spelling of my name, j m u n o z psychotherapy on Instagram and and business of healing, you can see through there. And, you know, just be part of the conversation about gender based violence and just, you know, I harp on things. I'm very, very direct person, you'll see, some of the stuff I talk about. But, you know, please come and just join the conversation and follow Sanctuary for Families and Bridesmarch too, please.
Jessica Muñoz:You'll see them on Instagram as well. Bridesmarch, please. I'd really appreciate everybody. Grassroots movement run by the families.
Ron Rapatalo:Love that.
Jessica Muñoz:At @bridesmarch.
Ron Rapatalo:Well, Jessica, thank you for being on Ronderings. It was a pleasure to get to know not only your story, but the advocacy of you turned your your survivorship into incredible power. So thank you for sharing that with me and my audience today.
Jessica Muñoz:Thank you. It was awesome. Really enjoyed it.
Ron Rapatalo:In the words of one of my favorite athletic heroes, Deion Sanders, we always come in hot. Peace, y'all. What a conversation. Big gratitude to Jessica Muñoz for honesty, courage, and the way she reminds us that healing is both personal and collective. If her story moves you, follow Jessica on Instagram at j.
Ron Rapatalo:@jmunozpsychotherapy, and check out the Bride's March Movement, a grassroots call to end gender based violence done by families. As always, thank you for tuning in to Ronderings, where we lift up stories that strengthen our community. Keep sharing your truths. Keep building community. And as always, keep Ronderings.
Ron Rapatalo:Peace. By the way, podcast that matter helps make Ronderings happen. I'm crazy grateful for them. They've done some really cool things beyond just this podcast. Go check them out, what they've got going on.
Ron Rapatalo:And while you're there, check out my homie Mike Montoya's Stronger podcast too. If you're in these conversations, that one should definitely be in your rotation. Thank you for listening to today's Ronderings. I enjoyed hanging out with me and my guests, and I hope you leave with something worth chewing on. If it made you smile, think, or even roll your eyes in a good way, pass it along to someone else.
Ron Rapatalo:I'm Ron Rapatalo, and until next time, keep raundering, keep laughing, and keep becoming.