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At the edge of collapse—and creation—two unlikely co-conspirators invite you into a radically honest conversation about the future. This isn’t just another tech or self-help podcast. It’s a story-driven exploration of who we are, what we value, and how we might reimagine the world when the systems around us stop serving us. We blend personal storytelling, cultural critique, and deep inquiry into what it means to be human in an age of AI, uncertainty, and transformation. We’re asking better questions—together.
Because the world is changing fast, but maybe that’s precisely what we need.
Hosted by Beth Rudden and Katie Smith, two builders of systems and challengers of the status quo. Beth is CEO of Bast.AI and a globally recognized expert in trustworthy AI, with decades of experience leading data and ethics at IBM. Katie is the founder of Humma.AI, a strategist who drove innovation and revenue growth at major global brands before turning to human rights and technology for social good. Together, they make complex issues, such as AI and its impacts on everyday people, clear, personal, and impossible to ignore.
Beth Rudden is the CEO and Founder of Bast AI, a pioneering company building explainable, personalized AI for good. With over two decades of experience as a global executive and Distinguished Engineer at IBM, Beth blends anthropology, data science, and AI governance to create tools that amplify human dignity and intelligence—not replace it.
Her work spans healthcare, education, and workforce transformation, using ontological natural language understanding (NLU) to make AI transparent, accountable, and accessible. Through Bast AI, Beth is reimagining how organizations deploy AI that’s not only accurate but aligned with ethical values, cultural context, and cognitive well-being.
Beth is also the author of AI for the Rest of Us and a passionate advocate for AI literacy, epistemic diversity, and the right to understand the systems shaping our lives. She speaks globally on the future of AI, power, and social contracts—and believes we’re all stewards of the next intelligence.
Katie Smith is the CEO and Founder of Humma.AI, a privacy-first platform building community-powered, culturally competent AI. With over two decades of experience leading digital strategy and social innovation, Katie blends systems thinking, Responsible AI, and storytelling to create tools that serve dignity, not domination. Their work spans mental health, civic tech, and digital rights, using participatory AI to make systems safer, fairer, and more accountable. Through Humma.AI, Katie is reimagining how people and businesses engage AI that’s accurate, inclusive, and governed by consent and care. Katie is also the author of Zoe Bios: The Epigenetics of Terrorism, a provocative exploration of identity, trauma, and transformation. They speak globally on the future of technology, power, and justice—and believe human empathy is the intelligence that will define our time.
Subscribe to our Substack for bonus content: https://substack.com/@andwefeelfine
Julia Pahina (00:00)
When we started opening up some of these spaces to talk about capitalism, colonization, white supremacy and the ways in which that then mirrors over to the tech industry, that's a very touchy subject. some of our, I can look at myself and say, but...
Beth Rudden (00:05)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (00:11)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (00:13)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (00:20)
getting a six figure salary is going to equal X amount of self social determinants of health for me and my family. So you coming in here and telling me, hey, I'm actually working for a kind slave owner. That was, that's a bit much for me, right?
Beth Rudden (00:26)
Yep, that's right, that's right.
Katie Smith (00:27)
Mm-hmm.
Welcome back everyone to And We Feel Fine. Today's guest we're so excited to share is Julia Pahina And you know, Beth Rudden, always thrilled to be with you. First of all, just how's everyone feeling? We'll get into the big question of what's ending and beginning. That's like the question we love to give to our guests. But yeah, just how's everyone feeling today?
Beth Rudden (01:00)
Thank
Do ya?
Julia Pahina (01:14)
I'm feeling really good. have a nine month to ten month old puppy and I believed he was a full mama's boy and in the last 48 hours he's been really into his dad so I'm just like processing that. think it's funny for me. like I thought you were a firm mama's boy but maybe you're not. Maybe you're not. So I'm good.
Beth Rudden (01:19)
Gah!
Hahaha
Katie Smith (01:35)
Were you traveling? He fed the dog for a little while or what happened? There was a shift.
Julia Pahina (01:38)
No,
I've been here but maybe he's just been doing more fun walks, I'm not sure. I'm okay though, like I'm securing myself as a dog mom.
Katie Smith (01:47)
my gosh, it would be hard. Cause you know I have the puppy too. If all of a sudden Tomlin was just gravitating. Actually that's not true. There is one person, one of our Fellows comes over and Tomlin just has a beautiful relationship with Dante. And I'm just like, okay, I get it. I could be second best if Dante came over more often.
Julia Pahina (01:59)
Yeah.
I'm just being human for the week. Okay, spare human vibes.
I've got this.
Beth Rudden (02:11)
You should check the pockets for treats and bacon.
Katie Smith (02:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly. He's like, okay, you know, you're going to be mine
soon. So Julie, I know that, you know, we shared this question with you of like, what's ending and what's beginning. And I'm curious when you think about that, and you know, and you can respond in any way it could be a relation to like, the new work you're working on or bigger concepts of AI and society or just your home. It could literally be anything you want to share.
Julia Pahina (02:19)
Yeah, exactly.
Beth Rudden (02:22)
Yes.
Julia Pahina (02:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think this is obviously coming from a place of active hope. And I use that word really intentionally when I say I believe what's dying is the over glorification of an individual human centered intelligence narrative. And I really want to say that active hope. I hold that true in my heart that I believe we're moving towards that.
Beth Rudden (03:00)
Mmm.
Julia Pahina (03:08)
And then I also believe that what's being birthed, that what's evolving is our appreciation and our amplification of relational intelligence, ancestral intelligence, planetary intelligence, heart intelligence. I really hope and believe that we're looking in the world and we're seeing a lot of these narratives that have been presented at us as overly solutionist, overly like predetermined.
Katie Smith (03:21)
Bye.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (03:36)
And just
Beth Rudden (03:36)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (03:37)
also like a disconnect from the fact that intelligence as a word is not easily defined. It's not widely understood in a single definition. And so often the narratives that are being presented to us about AI is this road to copying, to getting to, to matching human intelligence. But that is so narrow and that is so limited. And it's almost ironic that we believe
Beth Rudden (03:56)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (04:02)
that we are at the ultimate form of society, right? Or at the ultimate form of the human, sorry, the animal tree, if you will, or mammals, or whatever we want to look at it as. And so I have a sense of active hope that there's a broadening awakening to this limited form of understanding and prioritizing. And actually so much of what makes us special and unique in society is in this non-individualistic, non-human-centered
Katie Smith (04:06)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (04:32)
understanding and appreciation of what other intelligence exists in the world today.
Beth Rudden (04:39)
I like that so much. ⁓ definition that we came up ⁓ with for artificial intelligence when we were doing some work for IBM, and it's one that I still use just because I sort of like to regulate it without, you know, without necessarily judgment, but it's a simulation of human intelligence, nothing more, nothing less. And, you know, you use that word ancestral intelligence and ancestral. like that a little bit.
Julia Pahina (05:04)
No.
Beth Rudden (05:08)
But unfortunately, the people who curated these large language models, I don't want, we're not thinking about my ancestors anyway, but like, you know, I think that that's, I think that's a really good way to say too, because I've been a fan of like biomimicry for a long time. this,
Katie Smith (05:13)
We're not thinking about that.
Beth Rudden (05:31)
I really like how you positioned it is like we need to deflate the human ego because there's so many other various forms of intelligence that do you know we actually don't know how photosynthesis works? We actually do not know. And so it's so at like some of the cellular levels at some of like the basic building blocks of we understand that this is a process that is repeatable.
like gravity, but we don't necessarily always know how it completely works. And I'm just like, geez, there's so much to discover.
Julia Pahina (06:00)
Mmm. Mmm.
Katie Smith (06:04)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (06:09)
Right? And in so many ways, like shifting from ego to eco, trying to get us to operate from a different center point. Like a lot of the work in systems change looks at, you know, how do we move to a place of embodied understanding rather than just shifting the mind? Even if you just shift mental models up here, you're not actually shifting someone's nervous system, which means ultimately they're just still operating from a head space. They're not aligned in head, heart and hands.
Beth Rudden (06:13)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (06:13)
Mmm.
Beth Rudden (06:25)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (06:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (06:36)
And if we're actually gonna see behavior
Katie Smith (06:37)
⁓
Julia Pahina (06:38)
change, we need to operate at those deeper levels. We need to operate in a trauma-informed way, in a healing-centered way, to get behavior change. Now, when I think about AI and we think about all of the conversations, we're still just operating up here. And that's what we're all celebrating then. It's like,
Beth Rudden (06:53)
Mm.
Julia Pahina (06:56)
operating up here but we're so much more than that. And on a book I've read recently around ways of being it talks about octopuses. And octopuses are incredibly smart right? And their intelligence is decentralized. It exists within human form and within their hands. Now even that is an analogy for how limited we are in our understanding and our pursuit where we're just going after the brain. Like that's it. And so I do
Katie Smith (06:59)
Yes.
Beth Rudden (07:04)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Katie Smith (07:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (07:25)
Again, I'm using the word active hope because I don't think this is obviously like table stakes for everyone, but there's a belief in me that there's a shift or that there could be a shift. And thinking about like the two loops model and systems change too, that there's a first loop of like obviously a system that's dying and a new loop around what's being birthed. And there's what they call the walkouts, people that are walking out from the old system to build the new, the trailblazers. And I want to believe that there's a growing movement of walkout.
Beth Rudden (07:37)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (07:43)
⁓ huh.
Mm.
Beth Rudden (07:48)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (07:49)
Yes, yes.
Julia Pahina (07:54)
There's a growing movement of people that are tapping out of this continuous narrative and hype cycle of like this never-ending pursuit of purely human intelligence and that there are people sitting on the fringes that are building momentum and asking ourselves, well, what actually do we really care about? What do we want to see amplified and grown? And where does intelligence actually lie within us as a society, as a planet, as a species?
Beth Rudden (07:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (08:23)
within community.
Julia Pahina (08:25)
Exactly.
Katie Smith (08:26)
And you're doing so much
work with that. Like you've come back to your home country, like you're, you're investing so much back into your community. ⁓ you've done this full circle and I love your journey and so much. was a LinkedIn post that you're like, look, I wasn't the perfect kid. I didn't have the perfect life. Like, you know, I had to move around a lot, but like,
Julia Pahina (08:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (08:45)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (08:46)
You just kept pushing forward and now you're giving back. I love your story resonates with me. have a little bit of a similar story, but not quite. But you know, like it wasn't easy, right? And somehow we were successful and you're wanting to give back. Do you want to talk more about that?
Julia Pahina (08:48)
me.
Yeah, so I guess, you know, that comes from trauma-informed intelligence. If you want to talk about like where did a lot of this being started from is that, yeah, I never was brought up necessarily with the perfect white picket fence, with two parents at home, with constant stable incomes from dual parents, from, you know, the beautiful path of family being right there and a support network right there and...
A lot of the ways in which we overcome, overcame adversity was through my mum's ability to stay so resilient and just continually tell me that the world is my oyster. even when society wasn't necessarily saying the same thing, there was this deep, deep sense of I'm too afraid to be a failure. And it was really interesting that that was fear was my core driver much more than abundant was. And
Katie Smith (09:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (09:50)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (09:56)
you
Julia Pahina (09:56)
I can see
now the difference between deficit-based thinking or fear-based thinking versus abundance-based or strength-based. But at the time, that fear catapulted me to put myself into the world with a sense of audacity almost, just a sense of like, you know, what have I got to lose if I'm already starting behind the line? If I start posturing or putting myself out there in the ways that other people who are further ahead of me are,
Beth Rudden (10:00)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (10:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Julia Pahina (10:24)
And in my own flair, in my own style, with my own values, then what have I got to lose, right? What have I got to lose? And there's a quote that I always talk about, which is, you cannot be found unless you put your flame up. And it was something I continually told myself, is no one's coming to find me. No one's coming to save me. No one's looking for me. So I have to make myself be noticed.
Katie Smith (10:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (10:29)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (10:36)
and
Beth Rudden (10:36)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (10:44)
Hmm. ⁓
Julia Pahina (10:47)
And so I went overseas, I did my time in Australia and London and the UK and in San Diego and America and spent a little bit of time over in Africa as well. Although it was an incredible sandpit to be a part of working in big global tech and being part of bigger projects with bigger budgets and more people and kind of sitting at more of that edge of technology, at the same time, I felt this real sense of loss when it came to purpose and meaning.
Beth Rudden (11:05)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (11:10)
Okay.
Julia Pahina (11:16)
and is just like any young person that believes that you can have both purpose and profession and all of those things can be matched together. I decided to leave the security of corporate and know good salaries and all that other stuff and made my way back home and I've ⁓ it's been a different type of challenge. I'll never shy away from that is coming home and trying to sense make this space, sense make the soil to figure out where to plant the seed.
Katie Smith (11:42)
Okay.
Julia Pahina (11:45)
developing strong roots because you you've got to be to do anything in community you have to have existed and know it and see it and feel it and resonate it with it before anyone's going to trust you because trust is the one thing we don't have in society so it's been a hard road it's been a good road in that sense it shouldn't be that easy to just walk into community and like hey I've got an idea for you yeah exactly you know I had to earn my stripes
Katie Smith (11:47)
Thank you.
Beth Rudden (11:51)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (11:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. I'm back. Let's go.
Julia Pahina (12:12)
And our organization has done incredible work in under three years. We've been able to reach over 16,000 people in our community, reached 4.4 million online. We've released a digital academy, launched master classes. My co-founder is one young New Zealander of the year for our work, as well as the first person to ever win New Zealand's high tech Young Achiever of the Year within the same year for all of our work in digital equity and the digital divide. So we've definitely...
Katie Smith (12:36)
Wow.
Beth Rudden (12:36)
Mmm.
Julia Pahina (12:41)
pushed ourselves to the limit and we've started to shift. We have shifted the system of technology here. And in the same time, we also recognize that the parallels between trying to get a community to pursue or to think about technology is exactly what's needed for AI. Because in New Zealand right now, only 34 % of New Zealanders actually trust AI. And nearly
Beth Rudden (12:58)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (12:58)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (13:03)
Hmm. It's like, say hi.
Julia Pahina (13:06)
Well,
yeah, yeah, but with a thread to last and a global study that was done by KPMG, which, you know, their methodology, who knows, and their reach, knows. But I think it just gave a bit of an indicator that so much of what we've seen around the barriers to digital, which is trust, confidence, skills, capability, all these sorts of things, it exists as well with AI. And if we want to see our community actually participate in creating, influencing, know, reshaping what's shaping us.
Beth Rudden (13:08)
you
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (13:19)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (13:28)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (13:36)
We've got to be overcoming some of those same mental models, those same barriers to entry within ourselves in order to realize some of the potential benefits of what AI is able to offer.
Beth Rudden (13:51)
Is there, you you kind of mentioned some of the trauma informed journey and, you know, a lot of my own personal journey in that is like recognizing that, you know, what served me to get me here is not necessarily going to serve me to get me there. ⁓ Do you find that that's something that you guys are actively pruning and looking at in your community of like, you know, what are the pathways that the community has built?
Julia Pahina (13:51)
It's a good one.
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (14:18)
to survive and love the survival, right? And then wait a second, is that something that we still need to be doing or is that something that you guys are like actively kind of like doing an inventory on?
Julia Pahina (14:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's a really great question.
When we started opening up some of these spaces to talk about capitalism, colonization, white supremacy and the ways in which that then mirrors over to the tech industry, that's a very touchy subject. some of our, I can look at myself and say, but...
Beth Rudden (14:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (14:48)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (14:50)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (14:57)
getting a six figure salary is going to equal X amount of self social determinants of health for me and my family. So you coming in here and telling me, hey, I'm actually working for a kind slave owner. That was, that's a bit much for me, right? That's a bit much for me because what I am able to do is support my mom, my family, myself, to be a different statistic of what, how New Zealand sees Pacific people in New Zealand today.
Beth Rudden (15:03)
Yep, that's right, that's right.
Katie Smith (15:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Julia Pahina (15:25)
have a median salary that's like three times what my community is known for. there's a lot of, guess, to that question around how is, who am I to be coming forward and saying, we need to be looking at some of these root causes, these wicked problems. And yet in some ways, this is still an incremental improvement from where we were before. And so I always go back to those two loops models that there's some people.
Katie Smith (15:25)
.
Beth Rudden (15:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (15:52)
that are sitting at those walkout level and that's us, we're the trailblazers in the walkout. But we're lonely and we're isolated and we're not talking to a lot of people.
Katie Smith (15:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Beth Rudden (16:00)
it
Katie Smith (16:01)
There's a growing movement. There's a growing movement.
Beth Rudden (16:03)
Well, I mean,
there's a biological statistic that in any organic ecosystem, only 7 % can cause change. And that's a stability metric for ⁓ Emmy Noether, who is one of the most amazing mathematicians and physicists ever, created all of Noether's theorem and everything.
Julia Pahina (16:13)
Ooh!
Beth Rudden (16:29)
the stability and there's always consequences for stabilization. so that, my question was, I recognize the difficulty, what you talk about a lot is your young people and you already highlighted that earlier. And I'm just like, that is where our wealth lies is in the young people saying, we're not gonna do that.
Julia Pahina (16:47)
Mmm, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Beth Rudden (16:59)
anymore. You know, that has served us well. You know, this is something that's changing. And I just I see that in your work a lot, Julia, is that you really reach into the, you know, those newer sprouts. And ⁓
Julia Pahina (16:59)
Yes, yes, yeah, yes, yeah.
It's really interesting
you talk about that because, and I didn't mean to cut you off, I just want to follow that train of thought around new sprouts is we have an impact model called our Hibiscus Impact Model. And it's based on ancestral intelligence. And it's based on a proverb from our community that's called, as one fiber connects with another, it forms a strong and unbreakable bond. And so our impact model tells a story that if we connect Pacific individuals and community,
Katie Smith (17:24)
Mm.
Beth Rudden (17:26)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (17:42)
to us as Fibre File or Wolf or Julia or Eteroa or Saffron and we are connected together, that forms a strong and unbreakable bond. And those outcomes of that bond is that we feel seen and heard and increase sense of confidence, skills and aspirations, increase entrepreneurship pursuits, increase sense of belonging. Now, if those outcomes are created, how do these people behave?
Katie Smith (17:52)
Mmm.
Beth Rudden (17:52)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (18:10)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (18:10)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (18:10)
Because
when they're on their own, they're behaving in a certain way. But if they're connected to us and woven with us, what are the ways in which their lives change? And what we've seen from that is we're not trying to create a mat. We're not trying to create a piece of clothing. We're just trying to create that bond and the strength of that bond. Just the connection. And from that connection, new sprouts have been formed.
Katie Smith (18:19)
you
Beth Rudden (18:19)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (18:28)
Just the connection.
Beth Rudden (18:34)
That's a beautiful,
that's, the difference between intent first impact where people have these intentionalities, but they're not thinking about the impact that they can make. So often that gets confused or distorted or complicated in a way, but that, that, you know, that, that weft and wove like that, that is so important for the fabric of being as beautiful.
Julia Pahina (18:39)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's interesting because now what we've seen is people are now building their own movements. So they've built their own platforms for diversity, equity and inclusion in the advertising industry and the talent industry. They're building their own AI powered community projects. building so that every one of the strands, the fibers that have been connected to us are now sprouting a new plant, a new seed. And that's really where
Beth Rudden (19:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
you
Julia Pahina (19:27)
I find it so funny when I see groups trying to do like, you know, AI training or consultancy or adoption. I'm like, you're just operating here. We're operating at a surface level, not at a soul level. And the changes that you will get, they'll be so good on reports. You will get all of the government funding, right? You'll get it because you've got scale or whatever it else it is. But what you don't have is depth. And what you don't have is that generational shift.
Beth Rudden (19:37)
Yeah.
Katie Smith (19:44)
Ha ha ha ha.
Right, yep.
Beth Rudden (19:52)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (19:55)
And again, that new system, and yes, we might only speak to the 7 % this year, but maybe we'll get another little bit next year. I don't know, but it's the long game. so yeah. Yeah.
Katie Smith (19:56)
and
Yes, yes. Well, you're doing it, right? You're seeing sprouts, right?
Beth Rudden (20:08)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (20:10)
And how long have you been back in like, what are you seeing change on the ground right now? I'm most interested in this concept of trust and consent, because I think that's so important to moving forward. But yeah, like what are you seeing right now on the ground?
Julia Pahina (20:16)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (20:21)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (20:27)
Yeah, so I think for New Zealand as a whole, again, we've had some of the research reports come out recently that we do not trust AI and we feel very anxious about it. And we don't trust multinationals. We trust SMEs, New Zealand, born and bred companies. are not necessarily, we're seeing some benefits, but in some reports we've seen that the risks don't outweigh the benefits. Now that's just on like, I guess, general population stats.
Beth Rudden (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (20:41)
Mm-hmm.
Bye!
Beth Rudden (20:52)
Mm-hmm
Katie Smith (20:53)
Right.
Yeah.
Julia Pahina (20:57)
Now when you take a step underneath that and you go into different marginalized communities, in so many ways you're going to see that further amplified. And there is also the sense of, we've never gotten ahead in the current playing field. So then how could this actually leapfrog us back to the game? It's kind of like two, two, I don't want say it's just as simple as two halves.
Katie Smith (21:16)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (21:16)
Mmm.
Julia Pahina (21:20)
But there are some of us that are potentially already lacking trust in the system, lacking trust in government, lacking trust in technology. So then that's only going to be further amplified. And then there's others that are going, well, hold on a minute. If everybody is behind the line of this new age, of this level of disruption, then how might we think about harnessing it, but on our own terms, our own self-determination, with our own approaches?
Katie Smith (21:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (21:27)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (21:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Julia Pahina (21:46)
to be able to take ourselves a step further and be building futures we want to really live in versus inheriting futures in the way that we have done for generations. there's kind of like a, yeah, there's definitely a spectrum obviously, but this feels like the two elements that are really core.
Katie Smith (21:51)
Yes. Yes.
Beth Rudden (21:54)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (22:01)
Yeah.
Well, and that's like, that's the tension right now, right?
because it's sort of like there was this pause movement and there was like, there's no way we're pausing it. The Janey's out of the bottle. Like it's, it's happening. So, and it is Wild West and it's early. So it's like, we have an opportunity, all of our different communities to actually jump in and, and, and redefine it. And so it is interesting. I think, you know, folks like you and New Zealand are like on the
Beth Rudden (22:06)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (22:30)
the cutting edge of that, so to speak. I think, you know, I keep seeing the work that's being done there and it just, really looks like that is something that is, in a way you're leading the market for this.
Julia Pahina (22:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm.
Beth Rudden (22:33)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (22:44)
Look, think Te Hiku Media is world renowned for the way in which they have built a product that is going to protect, is going to lean into Māori sovereignty, Māori data sovereignty. are sort of like, again, their CEO Peter Lucas was named in Forbes, I think was Forbes top 100 or Time, Time top 100 leaders of AI.
Beth Rudden (22:53)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (23:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (23:10)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (23:12)
Time, that's right, yeah.
Julia Pahina (23:13)
Yes, it
was time and the work that him and his team doing is, is, it's, it's mind blowing and it's so fundamental at the same, in the same way. And I think for us, we're trying to figure out, what are those different touch points? What are those different expressions or manifestations when we can see them as a lighthouse in a way, as an exemplar of how an indigenous community is operating differently, or how are they thinking about it with their own indigenous principles and values and ways of being.
Katie Smith (23:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (23:42)
bringing that inspiration and bringing that sort of energy into different communities rather than just wanting to have a seat at a table that's already broken, which again, there's a continuous thread that always exists about that. yeah, it's, I don't know. Again, I have to go back to there's always a spectrum. Like, are we trying to go for big transformative change all the time or are incremental improvements enough? Because one of the questions I've had put to me is,
Katie Smith (23:47)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (23:47)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (23:51)
Mmmmm
Beth Rudden (24:07)
Mm.
Julia Pahina (24:09)
How can I be a social entrepreneur and a gen AI LLM advocate? And I took it out to my community and some people's responses were, you can't. Like that's from my own community. They're saying, no, you can't. The history, supply chain of AI is too unethical for you to come into the community and hold that same mindset of this is something that can harness and benefit us.
Katie Smith (24:14)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (24:15)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Katie Smith (24:26)
Data annotation.
Beth Rudden (24:26)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (24:34)
And so you've got some people in the community that are holding me to such an incredibly high ethical standard and then you have others going, well, have we not heard of the word like multidisciplinary and that two truths can exist in one. So there's no simple answers to this right now, I find.
Katie Smith (24:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Beth Rudden (24:53)
Can ⁓ you talk about, this has made it into my slide decks all the way back since like 2017. And it's the Maori belief that when you share knowledge with somebody, they're acquiring a spiritual part of you. And there's a beautiful understanding that it's a literal kinship and that data is something given. And I think that the... ⁓
the study in the world that I am seated in and like Western science and Latin, actually data does come from, you know, something that is given and something that ⁓ I always like to ask is like, you know, what are we receiving in return? And, you know, thinking about it in a way that is a little bit more like we're constantly communicating on all of these layers that we may or may not have names for.
Julia Pahina (25:36)
Hmm
Katie Smith (25:36)
Mm.
Beth Rudden (25:49)
just like before Newton named gravity, what was that force called that pulled all objects to the earth or what have you? And I'm thinking about these indigenous learnings and I'm a huge fan of Robin Wall Kimmer who talks about the Potawatomi Nation and some of the Native American or American Indian ideas.
Katie Smith (25:52)
Right.
Julia Pahina (25:52)
Hmm?
you
Beth Rudden (26:14)
I think that there is so much that we have to learn and I always feel like there's this a little bit this desperation of like, do we suck it all up? But that's not how you learn wisdom like that. And I wonder, there not room for both where you can take something that you love from the past and remix it and make it relevant for today? And isn't that the act of...
Julia Pahina (26:34)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (26:43)
you know, taking it with you. So when somebody dies, somebody is with you always in, or if somebody changes, or if your relationship changes, you're always carrying that person, that mental construct, that data, that information with you. And so I would love for you to like, tell me your view of that, because it's through my veil of like Western science and Western ⁓ understanding.
Julia Pahina (26:57)
you
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
yeah there's a common, almost, there's a common way of thinking around moving backwards towards the future. And it's the idea that the past comes with you, your ancestors come with you, we bring the past with us toward the future. And I don't expect that everybody in every single Indigenous community is going to agree on how do you do that.
Beth Rudden (27:19)
Hmm.
Katie Smith (27:20)
you
Beth Rudden (27:39)
Are you sure?
Julia Pahina (27:39)
And yeah,
Katie Smith (27:40)
Fair enough.
Julia Pahina (27:43)
there's already tension around we've got some new innovators that are creating language apps and trying to decentralize access to language because so much of our community are part of the diaspora and we're disconnected from culture and from language. And then on the flip side, you've got some
Beth Rudden (27:54)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (28:08)
incredibly respected ⁓ traditional and like you know orators that have worked so hard to gain that knowledge that have had to go through so many different cultural protocols you know just just respect like just so many other elements and cultural norms to be able to teach language and that's helped really really highly and that idea of how do you take
Beth Rudden (28:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (28:38)
the past and remix it to create something new, which also, how do you hold systems thinking to look at how was that influencing the system of our community as well? And I think this is where it becomes really important. Like systems thinking becomes so critical with AI, because if we're just looking at, well, okay, this person can operate here because it's benefiting a certain group of people. Also, how was that then having an impact over here?
Beth Rudden (28:45)
Mm.
Katie Smith (28:50)
Right. Disparate Outcomes.
Beth Rudden (28:51)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Katie Smith (28:58)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (29:07)
with also how much our community has held language and as you say, like the gift of language, the learnings that sit beyond the word. And what does it mean if our community are learning language from a machine versus a human? What are the implications of that? And so, so much of this is uncharted territory. For me, ⁓ I'm really trying to operate both with like curiosity and creativity as well as critical thinking. Like those are kind of my mantras to myself.
Katie Smith (29:08)
Okay.
Yes.
Beth Rudden (29:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Katie Smith (29:22)
you
Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (29:35)
I don't expect that I'm where I sit and where our work sits agrees with everyone. And at the same time, I do believe this is part of being a walkout. This is part of being one of the first to be trying to move things in this space. And the key word here being trying. And we're gonna get it wrong. We're gonna have people that disagree with our approach. The fact that we're even braving the space of moving into AI and...
Beth Rudden (29:46)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (29:46)
Yeah.
Trying, yes. Yeah.
Julia Pahina (30:03)
and starting to think about different applications or usages for our organizers, for our businesses, when we don't have like a complete set of here is Pacific approved responsible AI use. We don't have that as a framework. Do you know what I mean? I can even, I know you know what that, I mean, we don't, just, it's, we're learning by doing and also holding ourselves to the mindset of.
Beth Rudden (30:14)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (30:18)
Right.
Beth Rudden (30:19)
Bye!
Katie Smith (30:22)
Right.
Julia Pahina (30:30)
trying to mitigate and do as least amount of harm, trying to operate with a systems thinking approach. it's, yeah, it's full on.
Beth Rudden (30:38)
Hmm.
Katie Smith (30:40)
So when I think about ⁓ building trust and rooting it in consent, I'm really thinking about data sovereignty. And like, when we think about data sovereignty, to me, that is an indigenous movement. And, you know, it's important work that's happening in Canada. Maybe, you know, there's parts.
Julia Pahina (30:50)
and
Katie Smith (31:03)
pockets here in the United States. think y'all are doing some version of that in different groups in New Zealand. so, but data sovereignty to me is one of the most cross generation sort of like, like if we apply that, you know, the thinking, the philosophy, the theory behind that.
Julia Pahina (31:06)
Mmm.
Mm.
Katie Smith (31:26)
more broadly out of indigenous communities, but actually to say we can learn from indigenous communities, but we can apply this to ourselves. Like I, could apply that to communities here in Los Angeles. And what does that mean? It means like that data is ours, that culture is ours. And if we co-create it, we co-own it or we co-control it in some way, right? And I'm, I'm just curious what you think about that.
Julia Pahina (31:28)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Hmm.
Katie Smith (31:52)
in terms of like a movement, part of this sort of trailblazing movement.
Julia Pahina (31:55)
Now.
Yeah, I do believe in it and I don't expect everyone to agree with it because even when I look at my own, like our own indigenous community, we've got some people that are uploading cultural artifacts into LLMs because they aren't aware of the repercussions of doing so. And to a certain extent, maybe some people don't care, like just being really honest, like...
Katie Smith (32:05)
Mm.
Beth Rudden (32:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (32:19)
Yeah, yeah.
A lot
of people don't care. But I think what we've learned, at least in the focus groups that we've been doing, is that once you talk about it, people do care. Like one of the episodes Beth and I were talking about, you know, is just like people don't realize they're in water. You know what I mean? But once you say, hey, you're in water. And you know, it's like this is the world, you're living in this extractive world, but you don't have to live in water. You're one of those rare creatures that actually could go live somewhere else too. ⁓ You know?
Julia Pahina (32:37)
Yes, okay. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (32:38)
you
Julia Pahina (32:49)
Yes. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (32:52)
you
Julia Pahina (32:54)
absolutely do believe in it and I just think about the work that we've done to try and encourage more of our community to believe in their own self-determination and the lengths that we have to get to because of the place in which we're starting which is
Beth Rudden (32:56)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (33:10)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (33:15)
What do you mean? I've always been told that this is how it's done it because the system's told me how it's done it because the system's told me where I stand. Like that's all trauma informed work we have to get up and over before we get into that place of abundance or like imagining. Like you have to create the space to move through, to move out the weeds to then be able to dream from a different heart space. So like I, again, I believe in it. I love it. I stand by it and
Beth Rudden (33:23)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (33:24)
Yep, that's right, yes.
Beth Rudden (33:30)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (33:39)
you
Julia Pahina (33:45)
I'm coupled with the fact that we need to, as organizations, as movement makers, as world builders, carve out the space for some of that work to be done in order to be able to plant those new seeds of hope and to be able to water them together and create that. this is where I've always gone back to is like, work with the willing, where the energy is, building the energy, building that traction. Because we, yeah, again, as part of being the...
Beth Rudden (34:08)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (34:14)
It's a slow build. It's a slow build. But again, as you mentioned, as we find each other and we start amplifying and supporting each other and being able to create those strengths-based stories of hope and of possibility, of imagination. Like Ruha Benjamin's work around imagination and futures and around why do we believe in the ability to send us all to space, but we don't believe in data sovereignty. Like, what is that? And that's why I love the word. Yeah.
Beth Rudden (34:29)
Mm.
Yeah.
Katie Smith (34:34)
Mmm.
Yeah, yes, yes. It is like going to the moon. Sorry,
I get excited.
Julia Pahina (34:44)
No, no, no,
it's she does this beautiful exercise where she gets everyone to say yay and nay and it's like sending five women ⁓ into space for a media campaign and everyone's like, yeah. And then she's like, serving homelessness for all. People are like, no. And she just gets people to see what we're entrenched by, what we're being ingrained by. And so, yeah, that work is just, yeah, so fundamental to get us to the place of.
Katie Smith (35:02)
Haha!
Beth Rudden (35:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Pahina (35:14)
the shift and the change, I suppose.
Katie Smith (35:16)
So trauma informed spaces and storytelling and listening and just building trust and it just takes time and that's the work. And that work is side by side with the trailblazing work of like we have the energy, we have the people, we're doing the thing.
Julia Pahina (35:31)
Yes!
Yeah, I think we can flip it and make it healing centered systems change or trauma informed systems change. But if we're just operating at the head level, is don't be, we don't have to be extractive. It can be that. What are we hitting? What are we actually hitting? And so I think that's that coupling of yes, need to be able to, know, systems change, a system needs to see and sense itself in order to believe something's different. Like it has to be able to understand.
Katie Smith (35:47)
Yeah.
Yes.
Julia Pahina (36:02)
and see a new possibility, but I needs to be able to understand what it's in. And at the same time, the inner world of us, what are those underlying beliefs and assumptions that are dictating my mindset about the world and my actions? We're tapping into all of that, which is messy.
Katie Smith (36:04)
Mm-hmm.
Very messy, yeah.
Beth Rudden (36:20)
Well,
I think it's messier for the people who have been in the position of the dominant paradigm because the entire... I actually would be a little bit contrarian in that when you add diverse thinkers to a system that has been built by a homogeneous few, you instantly start to see, holy crap.
Julia Pahina (36:34)
Cool.
Beth Rudden (36:48)
This thing's racist, know, this thing's like bias, this thing's sexist. Alexa listens to my husband far more than it listens to me. And, you know, this is fascinating from my perspective because I'm, I'm the anthropologist that has always been like, let me give you the language for ethnocentrism.
Julia Pahina (36:56)
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (37:12)
as opposed to racism. And let me give you the understanding of why your language is a microaggression and harmful. And so it's fascinating that we have these like, and Katie and I spent some time talking about this, we now all have access to the tools of the patriarchy. Like we all have the...
Julia Pahina (37:20)
you
That's cool!
Beth Rudden (37:37)
We all have access to the mansplainers of this world and it's how we choose to use that. And I, I did a response last night where I'm like, AI isn't evil. It's a statistical ball that's excavated the information that is sitting in that meta layer of how people are behaving. And I'm like, what are we going to do about that? And that's where people are like, wait, what? I was like, yeah, look at how it's behaving.
Katie Smith (38:00)
Hehehe
Beth Rudden (38:07)
It is intentional in the impact because people weren't intentional about what they chose to use to train the models. And so I think it's kind of a mirror. And I think that you can go a lot faster when you add a woman to your engineering team to say, hey, I speak in a higher register than all these dudes. Maybe you guys should, I mean,
Katie Smith (38:16)
to train.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (38:34)
every time history. And like, I remember listening to in physics, there's this idea that quarks change their behavior when they're observed. And I'm like, what if a black woman observes them? And they're like, Why would we do that? How do we not want to be curious about this and see it as a sense of wonder? I think.
Julia Pahina (38:49)
No. No.
Beth Rudden (38:56)
My contrarian view is that we just need more diverse thinkers being a part of building these systems and being a part of understanding how these systems work. ⁓ something that you've been talking around a little bit, Julia, is there's this notion of complex adaptive systems theory that is a lot more about how systems
Julia Pahina (39:19)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (39:19)
are adapting to the instigators, to the walkouts, to the, yes, to the, and that's, that to me is like, you know, the, that magical moment when you understand that progress is not linear, time is not linear, linear equations can't predict shit. Like, you know, nothing is linear.
Julia Pahina (39:24)
You see this?
Yeah.
I love your belief that we just need more diverse thinkers. My challenge has been being one of those diverse thinkers in New Zealand and seeing how New Zealand responds to me. And it is not nice. I've been called a reputational risk. I've experienced a range of sexual harassment. I've the to speak up in a country of like five million.
Beth Rudden (40:05)
I'm sorry.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (40:17)
when you have tall poppy syndrome, when you have this mindset of ⁓ four degrees, two degrees, one degree of separation, and we're highly risk averse, we don't have ethical standup values widespread across the, the idea of speak up culture does not exist in New Zealand. And so it's like, there's two parts of it. It's like, yes, the person can be in the room.
Beth Rudden (40:29)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (40:38)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (40:39)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (40:46)
But if they're petrified of repercussions because we're such a small country where everybody knows everyone and we are so fast to cut somebody down for being different, it is tough. And I've seen that because we've empowered our own community to speak up against racism, to speak up against cultural mining, against mana munching and the length of time it takes for them to be able to say one thing back.
Beth Rudden (40:50)
Mm-hmm.
that.
Katie Smith (41:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (41:16)
Beth, it is like deep, deep, deep, deep coaching work.
Beth Rudden (41:22)
Yeah, and it's, I would, again, it's the engineering. It's the principles of putting together the programming language to put together the actual systems that you are creating. And it's inherent in the choices that the engineers are making. And that's where we need more diverse thinkers. And that requires
Julia Pahina (41:27)
Hmm. Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
and the choices that...
Beth Rudden (41:52)
absolute understanding that the arena that you are standing in requires far more courage and far more understanding because your community is not going to accept the change as fast as other communities seemingly do that. When you started today, you talked about hope and I've always thought that hope has
Julia Pahina (41:56)
the arena. ⁓
Mm. Mm.
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (42:20)
or I've been taught by Brene Prown that hope has, it's a cognitive function. And you know, when you're talking about active hope, what would you want if you can wave a magic wand to be able to give you that agency and hope to spread to all the young people that you're already bringing up?
Julia Pahina (42:40)
Yeah.
Beth Rudden (42:41)
all those sprouts?
Julia Pahina (42:43)
I guess one of the things I'd love to be able to instill is what do we lose by trying? Like if the baseline is this shit, and we've seen it in all of the statistics that everyone's telling us about ourselves, if the baseline is here, what do we lose by trying to build futures that we believe in? And I know that's not super glamorous.
Beth Rudden (42:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (43:06)
Yes.
Beth Rudden (43:07)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (43:12)
and like not super sexy but it's something that's carried me in life where it's like what have I got to lose? Like okay that's I think that's nice I appreciate that but yeah it's sort of like what what what do we if the futures aren't being built for us by us with us in mind all the elements you've mentioned Beth again going straight into the crux of it all
Beth Rudden (43:18)
I think it's super sexy. I mean, absolutely, yes.
Julia Pahina (43:39)
in the engineering of these systems, but they're being placed on us without consent, know, what would... Exactly, exactly, all of the impacts of techno feudalism, all of this stuff, then what have we got to lose by dreaming, believing, imagining, and building futures that we believe in?
Beth Rudden (43:44)
That's right. That's Harvesting our data without consent. Yes.
And there's a lot of communities that ⁓ I was telling Katie over the weekend, I got to hear the Taiwan ⁓ ambassador who is actually the representative who no longer is the ambassador because of things. But ⁓ just, you know, that powerful country, know, really being literally surrounded every day, bullied into
Julia Pahina (44:14)
Two, one.
Beth Rudden (44:32)
you know, doing things and, you know, the fascinating thing that ⁓ I see all the time is that the necessity is the mother of innovation. And when we have necessity of human beings, we do that adaptation thing that we do so well. And so I...
Julia Pahina (44:45)
Mmm.
Beth Rudden (44:57)
I really value this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing all of your ideas on, you know, and what you are going through in order to be able to be a walkout, to be different in this space. And it is so important for people to hear that.
Julia Pahina (45:09)
Yeah.
And I'd say one thing that's quite controversial that I do feel quite deeply at times is I miss the US. I miss being, and again, this is me caveating with, there's a lot of bad stuff that's obviously happening, a a lot, a lot. ⁓ And two truths can exist at once, right? I miss being with a greater number of scale of people that are also walking out.
Beth Rudden (45:26)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (45:47)
And I'm talking
Beth Rudden (45:47)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (45:47)
about across a whole raft of different crises and issues. I miss that deeply and I miss being expanded by that versus sort of stifled or like being seen as a negative addition to an ecosystem in some ways where.
Katie Smith (45:50)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (46:07)
We are much more of a risk averse culture, a safe pair of hands. And so I love today. It was really nice. It's really nice to be connected back over to the US and with other people that are also operating from that walkout mindset where to talk about this stuff isn't dramatic or isn't like, you just say the C word or the Patriot like that? whoa, whoa. Nah, I'm going to.
Katie Smith (46:32)
You
Beth Rudden (46:33)
Well, anytime, this is a very safe place. There's a story that I love to tell and it's a Russian general and an American general get together. And the Russian general is like, we have studied all of your protocols. We have studied all of your rules. We have studied everything. And you Americans, you don't follow your own rules. ⁓
Julia Pahina (46:35)
Yeah.
Woo!
Hmm.
Beth Rudden (47:03)
Yes, and I was always the funniest thing was my European counterparts who would always say that if you really wanted to get anything done, you just call in the Americans and they will do things. And I miss that about our country too. I know, but Katie, we could...
Katie Smith (47:07)
You
Julia Pahina (47:16)
Wow!
⁓
Katie Smith (47:21)
Hey, don't discount us. We're doing it, Beth. We're doing it.
Beth Rudden (47:26)
we could take a bead here and you know, Julia, you're inspiring in the way that it reminds us, me, why I love being an American is I love being able to build the rules and decide when and where to follow them because that's what makes sense. Like I love it. Yeah.
Julia Pahina (47:37)
Hmm.
And no one looks at me. It's like,
yeah, you think you're going to change the world? Sweet. So does a million other people. mind. That's not unusual. That's not unusual in the US. And I miss that. tell you, I wish we had more of that. And I describe that when people say, well, what's the biggest difference about the US and New Zealand? say, look, if you've got 100 % on either side, and in America,
Beth Rudden (47:52)
That's right.
Katie Smith (47:55)
Yeah.
Julia Pahina (48:08)
about 70 % of the people talk about how they're going to change the world and they think they're capable of doing it and at least 50 % of them go out and try and maybe only like 10 % of succeed. That is a far greater number than in New Zealand where we've got tall poppy syndrome and maybe like 20 % of us want to talk about how we believe the world could be different. And then from that, because of the ways in which we are set up as a society to about being super risk averse, maybe only 10 % of us try and only 1 % like it's just
Just the scale. ⁓ puppy syndrome is this, it's not a unique thing to New Zealand, but it's it's a cultural undercurrent when New Zealanders tend to pull people down that stand up and stand out and say, I think I'm awesome. We rip them. We rip them. We tell them you're arrogant. You're egotistical. You think you're too much. Go back and be humble. We love.
Beth Rudden (48:37)
What is this tall puppy syndrome? will you?
Hmm.
Julia Pahina (49:07)
to weaponize humility in a way that makes everybody else feel safe and comfortable. And we find it deeply, deeply unsettling and uncomfortable if somebody believes their worth and talks about it. And we are just waiting for them to fail so we can all pile on. Like there've been examples of entrepreneurs that have gone out and done incredibly great things. then there's, know, the media has piled on them and now they're no longer with us. Like it's something that's
Beth Rudden (49:09)
Hmm.
Wow.
Julia Pahina (49:36)
Yeah, it's a stifling undercurrent to the innovation ecosystem, to the systems change ecosystem, to ⁓ change makers, where we find it all too easy to discredit someone's dreams and then to be able to talk about their dreams and back their dreams.
Katie Smith (49:37)
you
That leads me to maybe, I want to ask you, what can we do to support maybe like, yeah, a pipeline of talent, a pipeline of that energy. Like, what can we do to support you here from the States?
Julia Pahina (50:07)
What is it?
I think to stay connected and just sort of so much of it for me is just like affirmations of like, you know, what you're thinking is on and here's how we're pushing it over here because that allows me to walk into rooms differently and be like, I'm not crazy. I know you think I'm crazy because I'm a bit different. Like we get it. But here are some examples of people that don't look like me, that look more like you, that are also thinking differently, that are also believing that the system doesn't serve us.
Beth Rudden (50:20)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (50:24)
Mm-hmm.
No.
you
Beth Rudden (50:39)
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (50:41)
that are also embodying a new way of being. So definitely in connections, definitely in, again, just affirmations around the way in which this work is working and just different examples of how it is driving change. And whenever I can or whenever there is an opportunity to in the near future, I'd love to get back over to the US as well and just refill my cup up and find different ways to be of service as well to you too.
Katie Smith (50:41)
Mm-hmm.
Beth Rudden (51:01)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Smith (51:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Any reason to get Beth to LA and then you're in LA? Dinner on me. Where can people learn more about this amazing work that you and your teams are doing?
Beth Rudden (51:06)
You are most welcome.
Julia Pahina (51:08)
Thank you.
Beth Rudden (51:14)
home. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Julia Pahina (51:18)
Yeah.
Yeah. So we've just launched a new sort of AI advisory studio that's sort of embodying this way of being this way of viewing, which is very different to how we see a lot of people talking about AI. It's called Wolfe, which is all about obviously being the lead of the pack, being different to the pack. And it's also, you can find me on social media @juliapahina where I'm releasing a lot of this sort of thought leadership and content and Fibre Fale as well as our
our beautiful social enterprise that has done a lot of the systems change work in Pacific communities, marginalized communities here in Aotearoa. So at least three different touch points. Wolfe, Julia Pahina and Fibre Fale Thank you so much. No worries, hope that was okay.
Katie Smith (51:59)
amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time with us today.
Beth Rudden (52:00)
Amazing.
⁓
Katie Smith (52:05)
⁓ absolutely.
Beth Rudden (52:06)
you're amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Beth Rudden (52:31)
thank you so much for tuning in. This episode was brought to you by Bast.ai, where we build trusted, explainable AI, AI that is for everyone, practical AI. Please like or subscribe, and thank you for tuning in.
Katie Smith (52:45)
This episode was also brought to you by Humma.AI Inc. We're a California benefit corporation developing Empathetic AI made by and for community. Please subscribe, tell your friends, like, follow. If you go on Substack, you can restack.
and thank you.