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A sailing podcast for racing sailors everywhere. Exclusive interviews with the sport's top names. Presented by British sailing journalist Justin Chisholm.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the Yacht Racing Live podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: The show for Racing Sailors Everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Featuring exclusive stories and interviews from across the world of competitive sailing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hosted by British sailing journalist Justin Chishoff, available wherever you get your pocket.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of the Yacht Racing Life Podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Justin Chisholm and my guest this week is British dinghy sailor Andrew Mills.
[SPEAKER_01]: A one-time Olympic campaigner in the fin-class who last month won the International OK dinghy world championship title on late-guarter after topping a fleet of no less than
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking for tips on how to put together a major championship campaign of your own, then I think you'll definitely be interested in what Andrew and I discuss during our chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, congratulations on that win.
[SPEAKER_01]: A huge fleet, 220 entries.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mind boggling.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, huge entry in, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is actually when I originally got on OK, kind of planning to sell the worlds at Lake Garda.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's been, it's a bucket list then, you know, I guess in the OK fleet, people prepared for it in 2020, and then COVID to get away from everyone.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I guess everyone was prepared and excited for this year to come around.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: fantastic now.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're sailing background, you're an Olympic campaigner in the Finn for many years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just talk a little bit about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, let's go back to your your beginnings in sailing, where did it all begin for you as a was it as a youngster?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, as a young sister, so I mean, my dad is mad keen on sailing, so I think I was first thrown in about around four years old, a Queen Mary Reservoir was a local club, kind of the, yeah, the best bit of inland water near and if near enough London for dad to get work and all those kind of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it started at age four and then,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I didn't do use chords and things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't hugely involved in when I was younger, kind of did every sport under the sun growing up and then around university time, kind of, the sailing, yeah, started become a lot more serious and then that turned into some full-time campaigning for seven years after university.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tell me about those other sports that were competing with sailing, what else were you doing, what sort of sports?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think we did, I mean, basketball was a big one for me, cricket, cross country running as well, but you know, every sort of athletics, yeah, any sport going, you know it, we have to go at it and I think, yeah, I think that was a bit of a family thing that just, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: play or sports available to you and you know you decide which ones you like because you get a little bit older and basketball and sailing was always a close one for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I remember thinking at some point that if you get a basketball in the UK you're not necessarily the best on the on the global scale whereas you know the British sailing team is is very well regarded and if you're the best in the UK then you probably figure somewhere fairly high on the global scale as well so that was maybe what what tipped it for me towards sailing.
[SPEAKER_01]: what sort of classes were you sailing back then?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it single handers at that point or were you doing double handers?
[SPEAKER_02]: Mainly single handers, but a lot of sailing with my with my dad, so we had the taser when we younger and now as I got a bit bigger that tended to nourish 400.
[SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of double handers sailing with my dad, I guess, up to age 16 somewhere around there, but then always single
[SPEAKER_02]: and then yeah, Finns, but I guess was always one of the large of sailors.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Finns, you get a bit too big for the boat before you kind of mentally will mature enough to sail it if you liked.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you went off to university to study what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Management's sciences and accounting sounds thrilling.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, most
[SPEAKER_01]: Most people that I taught to on the podcast professional sailors at least tell me a story of while I was going to go to university and then I got an offer to go and work at north, or to go and do the Volvo or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then never went back to the head degree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing that you've finished your degree, did you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is this another similar story?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: I first tried to agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, yeah, for for us, you know, getting the degree finished and the education side things was always important.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then for me, the plan was always a normal job, not a sailing job necessarily in the in the long run.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I sell full time until age 28 and then
[SPEAKER_02]: Since then, I've traded credit-deaf, help swaps.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've broken credit-deaf, help swaps in corporate bonds.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, my full-time job is a trading energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So gas and power.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so very, very different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything from the Olympic campaign that you could take into the normal work life?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this, I think for me in terms of getting, you know, normal work life, I think all of my jobs have come about as a result of my sailing experience and what I've achieved there as opposed to my educational background and degree.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's in the city and London there's quite a desire for, you know, for ex-affleets and also ex-military, there seems to be a big drive for people like that knowing that there.
[SPEAKER_02]: hardworking, objective, you know, deal with pressure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, uh, so I think for me that was probably the thing that, yeah, did allow me to get the jobs that I've had after my sailing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now sailing, you've not left sailing, you may not be a full-time campaigner anymore, but we're you able to carry on sailing just for your own entertainment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think some people see if you sell full time for a job, maybe the passion can go a little bit, but for me I moved into a normal job at a time where I've had the amazing seven years of full time campaigning and it's not that I don't like the sport anymore is not the reason why I'm stopping it's kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, for I don't know, when it's be around a bit more, when you get a bit older and family and things like that, and you know, it just was kind of my plan for the future, but yeah, luckily I've still managed to a very much staying contact with a lot of people in sailing world and still do plenty of sailing, which I'm very happy to still be involved with that and at a high level too.
[SPEAKER_01]: So other than the okay, what what other sailing
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I've done a fair bit of actual sailing over the years, not doing any of that at the moment, but then most recent as well, I've been doing some 5.5 weeks sailing as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess these smaller, lower tactical kill boats, where my tactical mind is the useful things to have on board.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's still great to do that, and nice to do some sailing, I think, as you get a little bit older, the single-handed sailing is, it's great fun, but it's also great to be involved with a team and sort of share the racing with other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you carry on with the Finn after you stopped your Olympic campaign?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you stopped in 2014.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was in 2014.
[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of made a decision at that point to stop the Finn.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the Finn, it's a brute of a boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I kind of decided, you know, if I can't be in the gym the whole time and training hard, I don't particularly want to say against people that I maybe feel that I should be beating in the raves, but they're allowed to do it more full time than I am, and so I'm losing to them for that reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I kind of made a conscious decision to stop the fan at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I have a approach in my 40th birthday in December which would then make me a master in the fin class.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, is it some point that could be a, you know, a come back in the fin class to have a crack at the masters?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, that's another massively, a recently interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: PJ Posmer about his win in the Masters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was bigger than your fleet, 300 boats.
[SPEAKER_01]: That, I mean, that class is really just kind of gone from strength to strength.
[SPEAKER_01]: away from the Olympic side of things, doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I say it's interesting as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was just reading some stuff recently on the star as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess the Finn and the star both of them are great boats.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've only stayed on the star for maybe the week or so, but it's an awesome boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, both brilliant boats, and I guess with the direction Olympic sailing is going now.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've kind of been pushed out of the Olympic classes.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's great to see both classes still going incredibly strong, and I guess that's just testament
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, how good a boat net boat far and also the people in the past that, you know, just want to keep standing those boats.
[SPEAKER_01]: So where did the OK come into your life?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I guess it was around coming up to the 2020 worlds, which were planned to be in, in Garda, good friend of mine, Paul Charles, that got himself a boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think at this stage since 2014, I've not had a single hander of my own, maybe after six years of full time work was thinking that could be quite good fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, Paul kind of, yeah, showed me the class and I had a little, a little salin one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought, you know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm probably a little bit too heavy for the class naturally, but if it's in Gardero and there's a good bit of breeze, that should be in my favor.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, around 20 to 20 was the first time I got one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then yeah, I'm fortunate that those worlds were, were cancelled.
[SPEAKER_02]: uh, but have enjoyed then sits then just sewn out, hailing island.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a reasonable little fleet of them down there, uh, so I've sailed there and then the 2020 world's happened to be in, in the UK, so that was my five, 12 championships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that was a, I guess a good wall up in a good chance to learn the the international fleet a little bit more, uh, before the full of the, the full of goto, goto worlds in 25.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was your result in that world's
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a game fifth of the 20, 20, three wells.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it, I was very happy with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an interesting, the okay, particularly down when there's quite a technical boat.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think with the chimes on the boat, and also being a light about in the fin kind of polyweight movements for and after, et cetera, are quite powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so you do see some big speed differences, so I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's definitely a few people that could handle that much better than me at the 2020's very well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess I learned a fair bit there, which was, yeah, put me in good sense for 25.
[SPEAKER_01]: The okay was, it's always been described as, it was created as the training boat for the, for the thin, the kind of the feed about for the thin.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess if you look at the rig is there's some similarities of it, but it is quite a different boat as you say.
[SPEAKER_01]: around its shape of the fin.
[SPEAKER_01]: What similarities did you see between the two classes?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I agree that the charms make it quite a different boat downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess there's the whole development side of big similarities where you can have different boats, different manufacturers of mass, different mass-pen characteristics.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess those things are very similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: in the thing we did kind of once we got good marks, numbers, you know, the harlot always kind of this one does appear to be fast and so everyone has this brand so it becomes a little bit more one design-ish.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I think the okay is less one design instead.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got an oven tin hole which I think is known for being a fast-held upwind but definitely not necessarily the fastest
[SPEAKER_02]: and then there's some other holes that seem fast to run downwind, but definitely slower upwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, in terms of sailing, there are similarities, but it's not a mini fit, that's for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess tactically, it's very similar.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a slow boat, so tactically, lots of similarities.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how did you take to the OK?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it, did you take to it immediately?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or was it a little bit of a,
[SPEAKER_01]: a struggle and then let's talk about kind of body size as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you've come, you came from the thin, what's the weight range that you're expect for the okay?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, I think Nick Craig is around 90 kilos of herd, which I've said Nick being, I'm not sure if he's around six, six or three or something like that, you know, tall and 90 kilos, I think for all weather conditions, that probably is somewhere around spot on.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think, you know, the okay, there's definitely people down to 80, 85 kilos and then, you know, the heavier side, you see some guys going really well up when you think they must be more than a hundred and ten kilos.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would have thought 80, somewhere, 80, six to 100 kilos.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somewhere in that range, I think, it's the right range, depending on when conditions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Gada, which made a little bit of dieting the months before I got myself down to about 99, 100 kilos, which looks like it was pretty spot on for a windy event, you official.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how tall are you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sixth foot, three.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got some leverage going up when then.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting, both because it looks like a small boat, but there's plenty of power in the rig.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you really want to hike and there's 13 knots plus, anyone could hike as hard as they like, if you like them there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I think it does reward having that leverage once the breeze is in.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's talk about the preparation for God or you, you bought the boat kind of four years earlier.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I guess you had a lot of time to think about God or so had you sailed on God or much before and what are the, what are the characteristics that you identified about that then you go into this event.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, also over the years of self-godder, I'm going to guess maybe somewhere between 6 to 10 times in god of the force, you know, I know, I know, god of a little bit, not super well, but a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's an interesting place in terms of if you're fast and you start well, it's, it's relatively simple.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a lot of it just relies, I think, on that execution, you know, if you don't start, well, then the place can come to be a bit of a nightmare to saddle week, because everybody knows which direction to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it's not easy, that's for sure, but I think for me, just you just need to get your boat speed as high as possible, going into an event like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then a bit of a focus on starting as well to be able to get off the line.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what preparation did you do?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I read in one of the reports that you'd done some training with Charlie Cumbley and Matt Howard at back at your local club.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was that the extent of it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that kind of was, I've said, well, it's one in family-wise, I have my first son that arrived late March this year.
[SPEAKER_02]: So kind of then had two months of no sailing and you know, just doing family stuff and got back to the UK after some time Italy, early June.
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically had June and July and August to try to get some time and on the water.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say we're very lucky at Haling, yet Matt and Charlie have been around and obviously from results and you know they're not just inside the okay class, those guys are, Matt was my coach and the Finn.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they're both cracking sailors, so very lucky for me to be able to have people like that on the doorstep to sail with, and I'm guessing other those months maybe we've maybe got
[SPEAKER_02]: 10 to 14 sessions in on the water or some of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So not loads, but you know, when you train with two other very good people, the quality is always high.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, that was a lot of the training.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I guess from the physical side, just to me quite a bit of time with the bike, as well as trying to get the body weight down.
[SPEAKER_02]: I dropped from 108 kilos at the start of June down to 100.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, a fair bit of physical training to drop that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said, and then sending with Charlie and Matt, they're both a bit smaller than me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I see where in the okay and flat of water in eight, nine knots.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you're carrying another 10 kilos in the boat, you are just a bit slower for that reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, kind of was aware how important it is to not compute here, that was off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's some commitment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wait, eight kilos is quite a lot to drop.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, I guess, well, I guess it comes from the days in the fear of where, I guess, body weight for me now went from a heavy wind event.
[SPEAKER_02]: You might be up at that 100-naked kilos and they're a light wind event.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've tried to get down to 95, so over the years, I've kind of had a bit of practice at either eating a lot or eating very little and going out in the bike.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just on the, just let me dive into the diet side of it for a bit when you are trying to get down,
[SPEAKER_01]: to a lower weight, you're out on the bite exercising.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do, diet wise?
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel for me, I think, I am a big person, so I can still eat a fair amount of calories and still balloons wait, so for me, the biggest thing, I'll just cut out alcohol, and it's just all the snacks in between me, so I'll just refer to this breakfast lunch and dinner, something healthy, meat, rice and some veg for dinner, and a bit of Tom on the bike, and then that will bring the weight off me relatively quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there'll be a lot of big guys listening to this who will be interested in just just knowing what the secret is to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you mentioned that the training sessions you do there, it's easy to kind of gloss over that and say, yeah, you were training with some good guys, but how exactly did you structure those training sessions?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there would be people listening to this who will be interested to know how to get the best out of
[SPEAKER_01]: some kind of joint training sessions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, I guess the main thing that you can do is speed work, you know, in terms of practicing starting three boats is not really enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've done the old session, hailing myself just in the harbour, you know, just approaching boys and practicing, trying to hold station next and things like that, to just do a little bit of, I guess, slow down speed, boat handling.
[SPEAKER_02]: But most of our sessions that we'll, we'll get out into the bay, we'll set out tuning runs with a, you know, a rabbit run to start and then a tuning run.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's, I think to, you know, Matt and Charlie are very good friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: Matt, I know very well through,
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, after my fiendays and I know Charlie well, but I think just the three of us are quite open as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So people are quite willing to do a tune in run and say, uh, someone was fast and, you know, they have so much, I think you look a little bit slow for for this reason, uh, and I think it's actually just a nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no, no one's out there going or I'm fast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to tell people why I was going fast.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh, just quite an open session, but yeah, we'll generally just do tuning runs upwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then downwind, just try to find a boy out there in the, in the base on where that's downwind, practice the downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then again, just, you know, Frank, the discussions about uh, I think I was going quite nicely for this reason, or something, maybe I was a bit slow for this reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I guess, I guess a lot of training over the years is, it's watching other people as well, whilst you're training and seeing that, they're going a bit quicker and
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what they're sailing bigger angles downwind or they're a bit more active of their main sheet or, you know, bang tension, that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, no rocket science formula, if you like, but I guess just a lot of focus on speed and probably, I guess the three of us, it speed is good.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've all done enough sailing that we kind of know our tactics and strategies, generally good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, that's kind of the bulk of the sessions.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we guys all using similar or identical equipment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Think so, everyone's got owington boats out of the three of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Matt has a different type of mass.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's the C-tech mast and the myself and Charlie have Kayleigh mast.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then everybody on north-sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: which I say sounds seem to be a good combo.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in particular, that's a very good upwind combo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people might say there's some other bits of kit that may be slightly faster downwind, but I think we probably all run off the logic of if you can get to top mark in the top view, then that's gonna lead to a good race.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's all well and good saying you fast downwind, but if you arrive at the top mark in 30F, you know, there's a lot of work to do to get back to the frontless leagues.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and just some I information in the okay class you're running an all purpose sale or do you have light wind and heavy wind sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me, I'm just running one sale.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've just got the north, I think the deeper sale that North make basically, yeah, just with me being a little bit bigger and then I take a little bit of left care about that, just to make that a tiny bit of flat and how I like it, but yeah, I think for me that's, I know I'm fine with a deeper sale once it gets easier.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then a little bit more power in the medium wins is obviously good to have a deeper cell.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, yeah, I guess that's how it will be a little bit tricky of setting up in lighter wins.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I think I just stick with that one cell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that one seems to work fairly well for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's talk about the both itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: You said it's an anovington.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did you buy it new in 2021.
[SPEAKER_02]: So actually, I bought one new in 2020 and then I actually, the boat that I had for the Worlds and go to that one was, I did a sort of park's change and upgraded to another new one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that boat was actually only a couple of months old.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's got the new, it changed the sort of the side deck position slightly to a sort of new, yeah, a slightly different way of hiking.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which usually fairly nice and all works quite well for me, but yeah, so it's a standard ovington boat, but it was a new one, which I think boats last very well, I don't think I feel a different from the boat that was five years old to a new one, but who knows a little bit of extra stiffness in a windy venue can probably always be a positive thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of rope on the, okay, in the similar way to the fin, can you just talk us through what controls are the most important for you while you're actually racing?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you adjusting most?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, so I mean, upwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: upwind I probably play in hauling out haul is relatively set I guess especially in those those windier days and for me with a deeper sale quite often you know you'll put a crease in the out haul and tie it up the bottom of the sale knowing that there's still a good bit of depth you know made in the sale already so in hauling out haul I'm not adjusting hugely but then down haul for the gusts will be
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll be kind of played.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, when the guests come in, I will be looking to pull that on to make folks direct forwards, but, you know, any lulls, especially if we're maybe a little bit bigger, I will be dropping the out all off.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then aside from that, just sheet tension, because I guess the big difference with the okay and the thin is the thin, once it gets to a certain bridge, you do tend to pull boom down to deck, whereas the okay, you never really do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so there is just a bit more kind of tuning to try to keep that perfect leads tension.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would say main sheet tension is the main thing upwind that you're trying to get a spot on the whole time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then downwind,
[SPEAKER_02]: downwind, I mean, releasing out all in holds, try to get a bit of depth in the sail, down whole obviously coming off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kicker is, I adjust the kicker a lot, you know, every time a little gust comes in, you'll feel that yeah, a bit more kicker needs to come on and then the second that drops off a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kicker off.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that kick attention is adjusted a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but yeah, so down, downwind, just kicker and kicker and actually it's the main thing, really.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what are you looking at on the sale?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you looking at, is it just instinctive that you know, you can feel about, are you looking at anything specific to give you that accuracy of the trend?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so, I mean, upwind, you can't get, I think if you've shaped tensions too high, the telltale's serve are up the sale in the top kind of core to all start to, start still.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if you want to have a telltale to look at, it's probably those ones higher up the sale, be the correct place to look.
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, myself, you know, largely it is, it is feel, you know, you let out a couple of clicks on the, on the rapture block and you feel that there's a bit more depth in the cell.
[SPEAKER_02]: You feel the power come back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't say I'm looking up there much, but that'll be the place to look.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then downwind, again, it's a bit of a feel for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you can feel when there's too much fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: The boat feels a little bit dead, whereas it's a little bit too loose.
[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like it might get nearer towards a death roll.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, you try to find that right mix a bit in state, you know, a little bit of instability, but enough, you know, not too much.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess just looking at the, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: the leech of the sail.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can kind of see if your batons, if everything, it looks very flat, either.
[SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't look nice, whereas you cannot want your batons oscillating around a bit in the breeze and flicking a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're looking at your leech with the main indicator.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the wind would heal on the okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it pay to sail in those medium
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think, especially up the wind range, you know, you sell with, I'm I guess the answer to you should sell enough wind would heal that the rudder is just perfectly balanced.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is really what you're looking to do, but I think the big thing now that you'll see everyone is people sailing angles down wind.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, and then it's important that when you sell those angles, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you don't want to be doing that by pushing the rudder at the tip of a way.
[SPEAKER_02]: You want to be doing that by moving body weight to low and so the boat naturally turns to the angle and advice first when you're bearing the boats away.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's just a lot of body weight moving to keep the rudder as neutral as possible but to allow you to sell the angles that you want to sell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that a change in the class while stripping that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I said, I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the OK originally, you see lots of photos of people standing up downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'll be honest with me, that's just, you know, what you would do in the fin.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then that's just kind of something that I've taken across to the class.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the way that I view is the fastest to get the boat downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah, gone over the days where pointing the boat directly downwind and sort of getting everything nicely and balanced gets you down fast.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if there's waves around sailing broad reaches or by the lead to generate a bit more apparent breeze, gives you more power and allows you to kind of punch through waves and jump to the next wave.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's where most of the speed gains downwind and cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fantastic.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about the Regatur itself.
[SPEAKER_01]: What were the ranges conditions that you
[SPEAKER_01]: experience over the event.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I said from a few days before I arrived there were a few light wind days but from when I arrived I think every afternoon we had somewhere 12 to 20 knots every day from say three days before the event and then for Monday and Thursday at the event and then the Friday was a bit different I guess we got.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I ain't not race in there, the kind of the Savileur breeze just didn't seem to get going that day.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in general, the conditions were brilliant, which was great, because I mean, September, a few people say, God, it could not be classic God, especially like.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that, you know, we were very lucky that we did get plastic guard or I think great for, you know, chatting to Aussies and Kiwis that, you know, it was a bit of a bucket lifts to vent to come and do something guarders, great people who have come from the other side of the world to turn up and they get the proper guarder and, you know, they all thought it was absolutely stunning.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice whenever I make that effort to come to event that you actually get the wind that, you know, it's renowned for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another Moth class suffered quite badly from it not being normally like this here in Garda when they did the championship, say, interview, and Zor Balinger recently, you won.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, yeah, it was, it was very different to what they expected.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're raised in the northernly breeze as much as in the southernly breeze.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you end up with any northernly?
[SPEAKER_02]: So the noveli breeze was there in the mornings, but we didn't, I think because we never fell behind on races, I think there was race in the noveli once you've fallen behind if you like, and that's the subly doesn't look great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've racing the noveli before, I mean, I quite like it, so I think it is relatively reliable.
[SPEAKER_02]: The downside is that I think you normally have a 7 AM start, so it's a little bit less sociable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair enough, so I don't have dinner in a few beers
[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the detail behind your scoreline?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you, you, you want a lot of races.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you just look at the scoreline, it looks like you cruise it, but I, reading the reports, I think it was a lot tighter than that was meant.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: The scoreline looks very impressive, but that definitely doesn't tell the true story.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, being some of boats were in three fleets, so you always get this thing, the more fleets you've got, after those first six races, the points are still incredibly close, you know, I guess you can look at every time you got a, you know, have time to get a second you've effectively got a sixth position, you know, not a, not a second position.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I kind of really went in there with a thinking that, you know, every single point that you can minimise in those first six races is worth a lot and also not, not using up a discard in those first six races is very important as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think those first six races
[SPEAKER_02]: think it yellow flag in the in the brace that I've got a second in which was it always disappointing to that kind of I was leading that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was always able to get the the perfect score line.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've met you know flag that was what it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I did have one one start and picture that I did struggle to get off the line.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess I have my little bit of luck there and that I was at the committee boat and
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you kind of look and there's just the perfect spot to tack out and you duck about and you think hang on on the first spot on to port here and them off to the correct side of the course.
[SPEAKER_02]: And actually that probably turned into one of the easier races from me from one of my worst starts.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I want to I want to get into the starting in a bit of detail just before we do the the yellow flag just for those who are not familiar with on the water, I'm firing that was for I'm guessing rule 42.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I'll be honest, I don't, you know, I never intend to break the rules.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, I know they do put up on the notice board.
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll put up what they gave you the yellow flag thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I, I say, I never intend to get done for breaking all those rules.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't tend to like to look because I don't want to put something in my head to do more or less of something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not exactly sure which role it was, but as I say, they gave me that was under the last reach, or sort of the second to last reach that going across to the outlook.
[SPEAKER_01]: So on this, on the starting, what was your strategy going into this, because these are even though they split you into flights, they're still big fleets aren't they?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, still 70 boats, so I do remember, you know, the practice race, I, you know, if we want to check how do the practice race to get an idea on how much bias that put on the line, because I think, you know, everyone knows gardeners generally go a bright.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that often is taught with a bit of playing bias and that's working out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that bias big enough to start at the pin or half way down the line and then kind of tack and get straight across the fleet?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or do you still need to start the committee boat?
[SPEAKER_02]: and tack.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so starting was, yeah, the practice race, I couldn't have had an average start and just tried to be fairly close to the committee boat, but two and a half minutes to go, there's a kind of wall of folks that were all there at the committee boat or at least.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it wasn't the nicest place to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess for me, they were always putting a bit of pinn by some of the lines.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you like the riskiness of your start, the further down to pin you in, the lower the risk of what's which, if you felt you had good boat speed and you could get clear and tack, it was a less risky route which may get you to the top mark in the top five.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's say that yeah, you're chance of being in 50-50 the top mark was much lower.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was kind of a big part of my decision making and then I probably a lot of midline starts and then guard them normally you can get some kind of transit.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you can get that transit and start with a boat length jump on the guys around you then you can roll in to the tap when you need to and then for me it was mainly just let the boat speed do the talking and kind of get across that right hand side.
[SPEAKER_01]: and in the okay, is it an easy boat to control in those down speed moments leading into the start?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you doing in particular just to help you position yourself?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, not as easy as the thing I'd say, because obviously it weighs less.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the second you get down to be the chance of the boat going backwards increases.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the rather size as well as smaller than the fin.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the fin, you know, if you get a rather good waggle, you could get the boat out of our ends, no problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: The okay's a lot less like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, generally trying to keep the boat a little bit more speed on, and I think for me when you see people waiting at the committee boat with two and a half minutes to go.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not the sort of boat, you can just hold station for, for that long.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that people are trying it means that you know, kind of your gap is taken.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't get in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think you're just trying to keep a bit of speed on and you know, all the normal stuff of just, you know, a bit of a gap to load.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think the big thing for me and look as always if you have a transit it's not giving away that you have a transit to the boats near you, you kind of why not wait till 10 seconds to go and then just accelerate and everyone else will be shocked that you've gone already, but you've got your transit so that you know you're safe.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you not give it away?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you mean by not constantly looking at it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I mean just as you'll see some people with a transit and they kind of they go and sit on the line very early if you like whereas I think if you're in a group and you know you're five boat leaps back you know till 20 seconds you you stay with the group but there are 20 seconds to go you accelerate and you just sail off and everyone's sort of looking at you like hang on these good be early but you've got your transit I think it's
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you just don't want to give away that, that kind of advantage that you've got by having a good transit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so you're off the line, cleanly, you're wanting to go right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're looking for that first opportunity to tack and cross.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the strategy?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in God of that, that pretty much was the strategy generally and generally you could see that everyone was looking to the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you see a lot of people that are immediately looking over their shoulder and try to pinch off the person to win wood, but then they're selling very bad VMGs whilst they're doing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I think a lot of people forget that you're boat needs to be moving 100% VMG the whole time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, so for me, it's, uh,
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, if you like, you just straight ahead into the boat, sailing as fast as you can, and then at some point you have a quick look over each shoulder.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's the tax on, you go for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's not quite, then I'll never be one to start aggressively pinching if you like to try to force the tack.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, just nick this out faster until that gap comes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I say, and God, as well as places where I think, like it's not absent, it's a fleet, no, that everyone's looking to get the tack in any way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_02]: The second, the person on your win would hit, can't tack, they normally will.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, I think it's also, I will not rush to just push the tinnah away if you like, because at the same time, if you can get yourself five boat lengths to load a view on your port, tuning run, then that means that you've actually got a clear lane and you can go fast.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's no need to super rush into that tack.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you prompt, but not too fast, you better.
[SPEAKER_01]: So during this event, how often were you in the top four or five at the Wimbledon Mart?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's says four days I would have been in top four or five every, every race I'm trying to, I don't think there's anywhere where I wasn't, but I think a lot of that is probably just stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of straight line boat speed if you like, and I guess I am, I say, approaching 40, but probably still at the younger age of the average age of the okay sailors if you like.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you kind of see it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get on day two, three and four when people are a bit tired and halfway up to beat the hiking intensity and dropping a bit from most people and luckily I can still still maintain that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think a lot of just, yeah, good straight line boats speed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I guess the other interesting thing with God or which I made mistakes on the practice race, but it's kind of a goodness stakes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It made me aware of it, but people overlaying on the star but lay in line, because there's a lot of people don't want to attack until they're on the lay line.
[SPEAKER_02]: but then if the right hand bend and the wind comes in, that obviously, the bend gets bigger as you go up the core.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you look like you're on layer when you tap, then you're actually overlay-like.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably a lot of people that gave away quite a few boats in that respect as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I messed it up quite well.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not getting that wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you working the boat physically, body?
[SPEAKER_01]: Other than hiking, just kind of working the boat
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll print a lot of similarities to the food.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess the the boat weighs less.
[SPEAKER_02]: So physical movements that you do don't need to be quite as powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in some ways a little bit less physical because the thin was so big and heavy that it would take a huge wave to really knock the boat if you like so you could actually focus on just hiking really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas with the okay I always think you're staring over the waves is actually a bit more crucial because you can hide really hard, but if a wave hits you and kind of knocks you too far up the wind.
[SPEAKER_02]: it doesn't have the weight in the momentum.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it will stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but I think precision of precision of steering is actually probably a little bit more critical in the okay than in the fin.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in that respect, you can ease off the physical side a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: But,
[SPEAKER_02]: if you can hike hard and, you know, what the, what the movements at the right time over waves that this week does help the speed as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it sounds like you must have made your, you must have made games downwind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing was that what happened?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, Jim Lee, I mean, I'd say, I mean, that's, for example, in times when I was close to him with downwards, I'd say our speeds were similar, but I think I did make a lot of top mark groundings in good positions, leading quite a lot of top mark groundings, and then, I guess I always think if you're going to win a championship, you need to be in a position where, if you're around the top mark surface, you should generally be allowed, you know, be able to
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I did generally manage to do, you know, you always get a bit certain guys that fast drop wind arrive in second, third, fourth, fifth at the top, but they may be a bit slower downwind, so they may slow down the guys in seven, eight, ninth and tenth, who could be fast downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, they have to fight to get through the first four boats and, you know, that will really slow them down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, generally I was I was able on downwinds to move away and increase the lead and your strategy downwind.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you looking to achieve?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, no strategy, I mean, you know, sailing in the, you know, on the correct board, if there's been wind shifts, you know, sailing in the biggest pressure, but I think also, you know, what's a little bit of just sailing with some space is important, especially when everyone's doing, you know, a bit of steering angles downwind.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's important to be able to go up and down when you want to for your set of waves that you're sailing at that point in time, not dictated by, I can't run by the late moment because there's somewhat on my lure side.
[SPEAKER_02]: So generally just if you can get a bit of space, that's a positive thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let me try that again, sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So over the whole regatta, when you look back on this now, what are the two or three key things that you feel like delivered your victory from your performance?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think in God as well, you know, the physical side is also very important.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, come first, first day of gold fleet racing, still in a position where, you know, I'm tired, but I can put it in the work to try to kind of...
[SPEAKER_02]: about forwards.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think probably those two things together and then I mean should probably add in staffing as well because luckily starting went really well but yeah if I hadn't started well then I don't think I've been near the position so I worked so starting
[SPEAKER_02]: starting straight line speed and a bit of the physical side things, probably the key three things for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how did you manage yourself on sure were you able to enjoy the event?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a big event with lots of people and it's a very social class, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Were you in bed at 930 every night or did you manage to enjoy yourself?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I mean, I enjoyed myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess probably maybe less on the beers, for example, than some of the other people, but I had for me had my wife and my son with me, and then for the first time in a long time, had my parents with me a big event, and then also in my,
[SPEAKER_02]: My parents in law, you know, the other set of grandparents were there for the first few days as well, so we were kind of there for a big family holiday.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're like, after sailing was a quick, a quick beer by the boat, so a quick chat with some of the guys, and then a bit of a family time and some a barbecue at home or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: sounds like a good combination, so listen, congratulations again on the victory and thanks for taking the time to talk to me today.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a single-handed sailor myself and I'm kind of eye in the okay and my orchard is a fleet that sprung up here so it's been really interesting to pit your brains and I'm sure anybody who sailing
[SPEAKER_01]: single-handed boat will be be interested to hear it so thanks for doing all that and congratulations and and good luck for whatever comes next.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much chefs and appreciate and yeah, pleasure to come and talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it for this episode of the Yacht Racing Life podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: We will be back soon with another top name interview, but in the meantime, check out YachtRacingLife.com for more great content from across the sailing world.