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Hosted by Dr. Val Civelli, White Coat Black Sheep explores physiology, functional medicine, and the medical questions most people are told not to ask.
This is where evidence meets curiosity, where dogma gets uncomfortable, and where real world medicine takes priority over headlines.
From understanding your lab work to debunking hormone myths, medication misconceptions, and optimization strategies, this podcast helps you understand what is actually happening inside your body.
If you care about health and think there might be a better way to practice medicine, you’re in the right place.
Welcome to White Coat, Black Sheep. Thank you so much for joining me in the studio.
I have Jesus Gonzalez. It is an honor to have you spend a little time with me here.
Thank you, Valerie. I'm really excited to be here with you.
I'm such a fan of the podcast, and I know we've known each other for, gosh, more
than-
How long?
... four years now.
Yeah.
I was in Bakersfield a little over 10 years, which is kind of crazy-
Wow
... to think about.
Yeah. I've been here since 2015.
Yeah. And I feel like we both have similar stories. We've moved on.
We're doing-
Yeah
... lots of really cool things, and-
Yes
... so super proud of you.
Super proud of you, too. We're not losers.
No.
That's good.
Far from it.
Yeah. We're just out there trying really hard, guys.
I'm trying to make an impact and teach people and teach myself and grow,
evolve.
And we're doing it.
Yeah.
I think that the older I get, the more open I become, and I think that
we go through so much in life, so much trauma, so much sadness, and our joy, too.
Yes. I love that.
And I think that sometimes we just talk about the good things, and it's important
to talk about the trials and tribulations because that, I think, is what makes us
human and what makes us connect.
Yes.
We all go through these ranges of emotions.
Yes.
So I'm really happy to be here to talk to you today about grief, suicide, and-
Yep
... all of that-
Yes
... really hard stuff that I don't think we talk enough about.
I love that you lead with a joy and readiness to share that-
Yeah
... because it would seem like such a bleak, dark space, and I'm sure it was.
Yeah.
But you had to process it, and just-
Yeah
... the fact that you do sort of light up with
just such a freshness about it, I can't wait to hear how you were
able to find good in that trauma.
Yeah. And I think we're such social beings. I'm a very social person.
I think a part of therapy for me has been able to talk about what I went through,
to talk about the things that I've learned, to talk about how my perception has
changed since I experienced suicide with my partner, Derek.
And I want to share that because I think oftentimes, I wish I would've known so
much before. I think it maybe wouldn't have changed the outcome necessarily-
Yeah
... but perhaps it would've changed how I was able to make that person feel or the
people around me supported.
Yeah.
And I think that's really what this is about, is just contributing to
people being more enlightened and being-
Yeah
... better versions of themselves-
Absolutely
... at the end of the day because we're all humans. We all make mistakes.
Definitely. And a
major takeaway that we would be able to achieve today would be preventing
that for somebody-
Mm-hmm
... or maybe if there was something in retrospect that was a sign.
I know that's like a-
Yeah
... it's always a-
It's hard. I think that-
... difficult question
... I've thought about that a lot with my own experience. Were there signs?
And I'm sure that there were,
and I think that I lead--
What am I trying to say here? I think that not all suicide is preventable.
Yeah.
I think that in my situation, I think that it may have happened anyway, but I
think-
Yeah
... for some people not, and I think it's, for me, more about talking about it, so
that if
you have a loved one in your life who maybe you don't know how to talk to them,
maybe you're afraid of asking that uncomfortable question, those follow-up
questions, knowing that it's okay to do that.
And sometimes people don't necessarily need a fix.
Yeah.
They just need a loved one to sit there with them in whatever it is that they're
going through, and-
Yeah
... have someone there to kind of love. I know I'm a fixer by nature.
I'm a fixer.
I'm a Capricorn, and I'm always like, when someone comes to me, if they're sad, I
want to do something about it. I want to make them feel happy.
Of course. Yeah.
And sometimes that's just not what they need.
People don't always-- I know. I've realized I learned that about myself, and I
guess even through talking to my mom, because in a way she does trigger me.
But I kind of have evolved-
Yes
... to recognize that I think the trigger is just that there is something similar
there, and there's a need to fix it.
Mm-hmm.
But there's a lot of times where I'm like, "Shh."
"I just want you to just be a sounding board."
Yeah. And sometimes it's uncomfortable to sit in that silence or that--
Yeah.
But I think the more practice that you have doing it-
Yeah
...
I don't want to use the word easy, but maybe the more comfortable you start to
feel.
Oh, it's a skill-
Yeah
... to sit in somebody else's silence, even though you know that they're hurting-
Yeah
... but they don't want you to try to fix or give a solution because-
Yeah
... you can't solve it.
You can't solve everything, yeah.
Yeah.
And I think I was really excited to have this conversation with you, too.
You're a physician. You're in the healthcare field, too.
I'm a chief operating officer for primary care. Derek was a PA.
Yeah.
And so I think that the conversation I kind of wanted to have with you was around
access to mental health resources.
Oof, so good.
I think that
in Derek's situation, he tried to access resources, and it was so difficult for
him.
Yeah.
And I think a lot about now how we have our providers who are trained to identify
depression, and they do the PHQ-9 screeners.
Yeah.
They're supposed to identify these things and connect their patients to resources,
yet-
Yeah
... they're not able to access those resources themselves.
Yeah.
And I was actually, in preparation for this, I was reading about different studies,
and it was really shocking to me to read that
a large majority of people in the profession feel scared to ask for help.
They're scared what that's going to mean for their career, for their licenses.
Yes.
And that's a conversation, and I
haven't heard that conversation at all, and I think it's a really important one.
Yes.
Just how can we
ask people to help others, yet not create cultures or spaces for them to seek help
themselves?
Yeah.
Being in healthcare is very heavy, the things-
Yes
... that we have to talk about with our patients that we hear.
Yeah.
It's so much more than writing a prescription, really.
Yeah.
It's holistic, and I know you talk about that-
Yes
... a lot. So yeah, so I'll get off my soapbox.
No, it's a great one. And just to add to that, you're absolutely right.
As a doctor,
we're licensed. We're held accountable for the people who we give the treatment to.
And when you are a doctor or an NP, PA, you seek help,
you're now also entered into the database where your colleagues can look you up-
Mm-hmm
... and they will use that against you.
Mm-hmm.
It has been used against me.
Mm-hmm.
I'll tell you an example. I've never shared this before.
Mm.
A few people in my personal world do know it, but I think it is a great time to
just highlight it.
Yeah.
So, long history of ADHD. It helps me more than it hurts me.
Okay, really good at my job, but when you are locked into the program and the
system, and you have to show up and do all these extensive tests and be just on
point every single day,
you're not sleeping. You're eating garbage. It's very demanding.
Mm-hmm.
So in trying to get yourself treated, right, so that your performance remains high
and consistent, myself, and
I would say a lot of different colleagues, they also have had to, at some point,
take an ADHD medication.
Mm-hmm.
So
it was interesting-
Mm-hmm
... because you just have very limited access, just like the rest of the world,
right? No one's going to help you at all.
God forbid, you are asking for a refill, or you miss an appointment because
you're stuck at the hospital. Nobody cares.
Mm-mm.
Nobody cares.
And so you're a normal patient in the system, okay?
You try to push through it. There's a lot of barriers.
There's prior authorizations. It costs a lot of money.
There's the pharmacy's not your friend.
No, and let alone with the stigma of all of that, right?
The stigma.
The stigma.
Stigma.
What are people going to think of me?
What are-
They do judge.
Yeah.
Heavily judge. Yes.
It's a really interesting topic to talk about.
After I lost Derrick, I had just got my first executive job in San Francisco.
I was working for a federally qualified health center. I'm still there.
And I had never been in a space where my mental health was supported.
Mm-hmm.
I'd just gone through the hardest thing of my life.
Horrific.
And the way that my organization showed up for me was unlike anything I've ever
experienced.
Wow.
I worked at very corporate, big hospital systems here in Bakersfield, and it's
very you show up, you hit your numbers-
Right
... you don't complain.
Right.
And here, they allowed me to be human.
So you shared it?
I shared it with everyone.
Wow.
There were moments where I'd cry at work.
Good for you.
I still cry at work sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
I'm a very empathetic person.
Yeah. Which is a beautiful thing to always have.
Yeah.
And to get rid of that is not an option.
And I work for primarily Latino organizations.
I do think culturally it's very different than some of these larger organizations.
Yeah.
But I love this kind of, I'm seeing this transition,
transitionary kind of way of thinking about medicine where it isn't so
Western and clinical. There are cultural-
Yeah
... components to these things.
Ugh, yes.
And I think creating space for that and allowing these more traditional ways of
approaching, and traditional more in the cultural aspect, right?
Mm-hmm.
In the Latino world, we getting together and honoring the deceased and-
Yes
... doing things that maybe you wouldn't normally do or traditionally do in the
clinic.
Yeah.
I think it's important.
Yeah.
And it makes people feel part of a community, and you can show up in a different,
more positive way. Know that, hey, it's okay to show the pain that I'm going
through.
Yeah.
It's okay to know that I'm not at 100%.
Yeah.
But what matters is that I showed up today, what matters is that-
You showed up
... I'm moving forward.
Yes.
And I think that's what we need more of.
Yeah. I love that. Showing up is really, I've said this a lot.
That's funny you said it.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of people can't just show up.
It's hard.
They can't even show up.
It's hard.
It's a huge step just to do that. So if you feel not okay and you're borderline
or you're like, "I just want to bed rot today."
Yeah.
Sometimes it's not the best for you.
You just need to put on your clothes, walk through the motion-
Oh, my gosh
... be a robot for a minute because that is still better for you than the other you
that's just back there.
Oh, my gosh. 1,000%. And that kind of brings me to this next thing I wanted to talk
about-
Yes
... which is the impact of grief on your body.
Ugh, yes.
I remember the first few years after losing Derrick, my memory was totally shot.
I couldn't remember anything, and I remember getting so frustrated with myself.
Yeah.
I felt so stupid. I couldn't remember-
Foggy.
Yeah. I couldn't remember anything.
Yes.
Couldn't remember people's names I would meet.
I couldn't-
You felt like Dory the fish.
Yeah, it was every five minutes. It was insane.
I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't even want to think about what my coworkers think
of me."
That's-
I'm walking around with my little tablet writing everything down.
Okay, that's good.
But-
That's a good-
Yeah
... I know the fact that you were aware of it, and then you, to fix it, you were
writing things down, or now we have AI, right?
There's things you could do to-
Yeah, please
... get yourself through it.
But I thought, "Oh, my gosh, what's wrong with me?" And I hadn't really seen,
really had spoken to a healthcare professional about it.
Yeah.
And it wasn't until I was reading more online and hearing from other survivors'
experiences that, oh, my gosh-
Yeah
... this is a thing. Your body has a literal response to this trauma that you went
through.
Yeah.
And I think, I wish that there'd be more resources out there for people who have
lost loved ones to suicide. Because there's all these things that I think knowing
there's a
kind of a shared experience-
Mm-hmm
... you can kind of say, "Oh, okay, maybe there's not something wrong with me.
This is just part of that-"
Part of the journey
... "healing and that process."
Yes. I love that. There is hope on the other side of it.
You just have to push through it.
Yeah.
Gosh, I haven't gone through that. I mean, that's horrific.
The closest thing that I can really relate to as far as the deepest grief-
Mm-hmm
... I've experienced that affected my memory-
Yeah
... there was a period of time, and it took, I feel like it was six months for me.
Mm-hmm.
And I was studying, I was pre-med, and I even had a tutor, and I was so
embarrassed, and I told her, "I know I'm not 100% right now.
I'm probably like 25%."
Mm-hmm.
"And I'm going through a lot in my personal life, but the future me needs to, I
can't quit, I can't pause." Because the logistics of life, some things
you feel like you can't just quit your job. You still have to pay bills.
Yeah.
You still have to show up to things.
Yeah.
So yeah, you just, in your case, you were writing things down.
You had awareness, and people were also aware, and you just, it's okay.
It's not embarrassing.
No, and I think that's the takeaway, right?
Yeah.
It's okay to ask for help. I think in our society, we're made to be so productive,
and it's shameful.
Yes, where does it come from?
I don't know, but I hate it.
God, I hate it. I hate it.
We can have both.
I know.
We can be productive, and we can also be human. We're not robots.
It doesn't make you weak or pathetic.
No. I think if anything, it makes you stronger and like-
Impressive.
Thank you. I mean, I-
Because you're not just in bed sitting there.
Yeah.
Like-
And I know that's okay sometimes, too, but it's like-
Yeah
... it is. There's something about getting out of bed-
Yeah
... and just moving forward. They say that the best cure for anxiety, right, is
movement-
Yes
... is acting, is doing.
It's the hardest thing to do.
It is. But it's so important.
I want to do what's normal.
Right.
Bravo. BravoCon. I was like, "I want to be the Lowell Owens version of
myself."
Instagramming.
I've had those moments, too.
Yeah.
No, but
I think it's important to recognize those patterns-
Yeah
... and to be able to take a step back and say, "All right,
how is this impacting my healing journey?"
Mm-hmm.
And I think being able to, yeah, really take a step back and understand what is
best for you in that moment.
Yeah. If you can't decide that, if you can't even assess
yourself, because you do disconnect from your body in many ways.
Mm-hmm.
It's almost like you're hovering above looking at yourself.
Oh, yeah.
There's shame, there's disappointment, there's the things I know that I should be
doing but I'm not doing.
It's all that pressure of society or family or, and I think learning to let go of
all of that has really helped me. Because I think I was that person before Derrick
passed away. I was like, "I need to have this title. I need to achieve this.
I need to have-
Yes
... a house, and it needs to look like this."
A checklist.
Yeah, all of these. I need to look a certain way.
I need to-
Yeah
... but like-
You nailed it, in my opinion.
Thank you, Mallory. You're so sweet.
No, but-
Well, I'm educated.
It's like letting that go. I still want to achieve-
Yeah
... those things, but I do them, I guess, for me, because I want to, not because
it's this expectation of how people-
Perceive
... perceive you or think that you should be.
Ugh.
But I know that's really hard.
I know.
I know that's extremely hard, and it's been really hard for me.
Derrick was someone who really struggled with self-acceptance.
He worried so much about what other people thought of him, and I try to live my
life in a way that would hopefully make him proud.
Yeah.
And it's been really scary to open up on the internet.
I talk about this a lot on my Instagram, and I'm always like, "Oh, my gosh, am I
being too much? Am I being too this or that?" You know?
I love it. It looks like such joy, and just arrival of
self and acceptance of self.
Yeah.
And my takeaway is that you feel settled and at peace.
Yeah, at peace.
Yeah.
At peace. Knowing that he will always be with me.
Yeah.
I think when you first lose, and this I don't think applies just to losing someone
from suicide. I think losing anyone, that grief is so overwhelming.
Yeah.
And there's still moments sometimes, like I was driving around downtown today just
going to all of our old spots, and I have moments where I cry and like-
Oh, was it good or bad or both?
It was good. It wasn't bad. It was good.
It was like a release of maybe some feelings I'd been harboring but-
Yeah
... was a little scared to confront.
Yeah.
But I think it's taking time and allowing yourself to slowly get there when you're
ready and not, because if I'm being honest, I felt That healing
for me, when I first lost him, I had this timeline of, all right, after six months,
I'm going to be totally healed. I'm not going to be sad about it.
I imagine I would give myself six months.
Because I process things very quickly. But it wasn't like that.
You're such an overachiever.
It wasn't like that.
Try to put it on a planner. Okay.
I'm a Capricorn.
It wasn't this.
Great, done at this time. Check. Cruise plans.
I wish it worked like that. But no, it's like this-
Yeah
... and then just talking about it openly, and you learn
things from different people and their experiences, and just being open to what the
universe and the world is offering to you in that moment.
Yeah.
And taking those little bits and pieces and putting them in your box for later when
you're feeling sad or when you're feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I don't think I can
get through this." But then, "Oh, I remember I have this little piece of advice
that this person gave me that I'm going to be able to use now."
Yeah.
Or just this tool that I learned from somebody.
I love it. Your eyes and ears are open to receive anything that would be helpful.
Yeah. So, I think that it's
hard. And the other piece, too, of going through this grief journey is the way that
our system is set up. You only get three days of bereavement. That's crazy.
I was so lucky to have a-
Oh, my gosh
... really supportive organization that worked with me.
Yeah.
But that's not the case everyone. That was such a privilege for me.
Yeah.
I can't imagine losing Derrick and then having to come back after three days.
That is, to me,
just insane.
Yeah.
Especially in the healthcare field.
When we know the traumatic-
We're the least healthy.
It's-
We're the least healthy, and I've said it before, I really feel a level of
inspiration and mission to help my own kind because we don't show up.
I ghosted on my dental appointment this morning, and I'm so mad at myself.
I was like, "Just charge my fee. I'm sorry." And it's like I knew that I had it,
and I did block my schedule, but I allowed the patient visit to go over
because I felt like it was the right thing to do.
But in retrospect, I need to just draw a boundary and just make that space.
This is when you do self-care.
Yeah.
It's so hard.
We almost need a total redesign of the system.
I know.
And I think right now we're really talking about the provider experiences, but it's
so much larger than that.
It is. It's cancer.
The way that we're reimbursed, the whole thing.
It's gross.
We need to just blow it up and start from scratch.
I agree. Control Alt Delete because it's so bad.
Yeah.
And there's, I don't know. I know that abuse of any fraud is always an option, but
it's not well done. It's not working.
No.
It's not working.
And I know I think a lot of us get into healthcare because we want to help people.
Yes.
Both my parents are immigrants. I remember going to FQHC when I was little-
Mm-hmm
... and I want to give back to my community, and I see-
Yeah
... how hard it is for them to access care sometimes.
Yes.
Or when we have to refer them out to a specialist. It's so complicated.
It's crazy.
And I'm glad that you have this platform, and you're using it to have conversations
like this-
Yes
... and hopefully others will listen in.
Yes.
It'll make them think about how can we do things differently.
Right.
I really want to be a CEO one day. That's my goal.
And through all of this experience and losing Derrick and-
Yeah
... kind of seeing how he had to navigate his insurance benefits through work and
how horrible that was.
And he worked for a good place.
He did.
And I think that just goes to show, just because you are in healthcare, you
experience the same thing as your patient would.
Yes.
Which is crazy.
We are, yes, and that was exactly part of what I experienced with controls.
Whenever I did choose to do the medicated option for ADHD
control, which now, I've learned other modalities to do that.
But it's like the world requires a certain output, and they require a certain
level of performance.
Yeah.
And if you're not it, then somebody else is going to be put into your place, or
you'll lose your job.
Yeah.
That's it.
And it shouldn't be that way.
It shouldn't. It's pretty wretched.
Yeah, it shouldn't be that way. And I think hopefully people listening-- oh my
gosh, I can't say the word listening.
I heard it. I'm from the South. We just merge them together.
It'll plant a little seed of like, okay, how can we change this?
Yeah.
But I think it's going to take that younger generation of thinking things
differently, and I-
Yes
... really admire Gen Z because they're really about taking a step back and
doing things that are going to promote wellness-
Yeah
... but really promote wellness.
They're not into how we're doing it right now.
No.
They are not into it. They're like, "No, thanks.
I'll be poor." "I don't actually really want to shop for the job.
It ruins my sleep score and-"
Good for you for being healthy.
I'm like, "I'm not mad at it."
No. I wish I was more into it.
Boundary.
Yeah. What's a boundary?
You need me to come in on the weekend? Sure.
Stay toxic. Be like us.
Die earlier. I'm just saying. They're going to definitely live to 100.
Oh my gosh.
They're going to hit 20.
They're going to solve all of our problems.
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
There's just so much beauty in life and that ability to feel joy and to feel free-
Yeah
... and to really have a feeling and not even just be numb.
Yeah. And allowing yourself to do that, I think, is really important.
I remember feeling so guilty when I would have a happy day, or there would be
something that I would do that would bring me joy, and I would think, "Oh my gosh,
I wish Derrick was here to experience that." And then I would feel so guilty like,
"Oh my gosh, why are you happy? You lost the love of your life.
You lost-
Yeah
... the most important person to you, and you're smiling.
Like, what?"
Yes.
I think being able to move through that, and then also the guilt of what is
everyone around me thinking? I'm on this healing journey.
I'm doing whatever it is that I need to just even get through the day to be able to
breathe and go to sleep at night. I would wonder a lot about that.
What does his family think of me? What do his friends think of me?
Yeah.
Of how I'm living my life. What does Derrick think of all of this?
You're such a caretaker.
And I had to learn to let that go. I had to learn to let that go.
Because you were not even thinking about you at all.
No.
You weren't on your own list.
I wasn't, and that's the crazy part.
And I think that through this journey, and for anyone listening, I want you to know
that it's okay. Your grief journey is your own. Your life is your own.
And the sooner that you can let go of caring what other people think, it will set
you free in such a way that I can't even put into words.
And I think when I talk about it, people tell me there's such a lightness of you
that I've never seen before. And I think it's just that.
It's because I've-
Yeah
... been able to let that go-
Yeah
... and not care what people are going to think of me at the end of the day
because-
That's it
... life is so short. We only get one life on this earth.
Yeah.
Spend it doing the things that you enjoy and that you love.
Yes.
At the end of the day, if you're not hurting anyone or yourself, do it.
Yeah.
Do it.
Yeah. Joy is just, that's living.
That is-
Finding that joy
... that's freedom.
Yeah.
Joy is freedom.
Yeah, definitely.
Joy is freedom.
Oh, do you think you went through a space of numbness?
Oh my gosh.
Did you let yourself just like you-- I think it's like a survival mechanism.
It's like a disassociation.
Yeah.
I was talking to my friend about this the other day.
I was like, I feel like I'm clear now where I can think about-- I wasn't doing the
healthiest things. The last year and a half-
Mm-hmm
... of losing Derrick, I was doing a lot of things to dissociate from having to
feel the pain of missing him-
Yeah
... of wanting to pick up the phone to talk to him. Our work is really stressful.
Yeah.
We deal with so much, and Derrick was kind of my rock. He was in healthcare.
He understood what I went through.
Yeah.
And I didn't have that person to pick up the phone.
I would cry myself to sleep a lot.
Oh my gosh.
And it was just terrible to not have your person.
Yeah.
And
so I share that because I actually forgot your question.
I lost my train of thought. See, there goes the grief brain.
No, it's okay, because it's so real-
Yeah
... and you had to walk through it. So whenever your nervous system just shuts down
out of survival because it's almost like it's so painful-
Yeah
... the brain stops to register it.
It stops, and I think that's where all the forgetting came in and all of the-
Absolutely
... all of that. But I think- ... slowly kind of doing the work.
Yes.
Doing the work, showing up-
Yes
... and continuing to move forward and allowing yourself to move forward.
I heard this quote the other day, because I would always say, "I don't want to move
on. I don't want to leave him behind."
Oh, yeah.
And I recognize that I never have to do that because I'm not moving on.
I'll never be able-
Yeah
... to move on from that.
Yeah.
But I can move forward. I can put one foot in front of the other.
Yeah.
And that kind of changed my whole perception around that, and especially wanting to
find love again.
Yes.
That is a whole another can of worms, of being able to carry that love with me.
That's a conversation.
And-
Yep
... I thought about that a lot. It's like, okay, I don't have to leave the love
that I had with him behind. If anything, it makes me a stronger partner-
Gives you-
... for the next person I'm with.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
And it-
I think it's beautiful
... thank you. And I think it'll allow me to show up in a different way-
Yeah
... in a better way than I could have before.
It seems so evolved, like grown up.
And it sucks because you didn't choose it, okay?
No.
It was like such, but there's joy and then there's death, and it's like, I don't
know. It's a whole thing you don't even need to put words to.
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And,
I hope that there's... Yeah. And we'll see what the world, the universe, has in
store for me.
Yeah. Oh, gosh. I am excited for whatever that is.
If we could know, would we want to know?
No.
I don't, right?
I kind of want the surprise.
I know.
I kind of want the surprise. But it's changed the way I live my life, too.
Yeah.
I used to be the person that would wait for the perfect moment or would wait to do
something, and now I don't even think twice.
Like if I want to do something, I'm going to do it.
We don't know how much life we have left on this earth.
Yes.
It's a gift, and I-
It really is
... treat every day like a gift. I wake up every morning, and I try to find one
thing that I'm grateful for, and that has really helped me move through those
complicated feelings of anger that he's gone or sadness that he's gone.
Yeah.
Because there's so much to be grateful for in this life.
Did you find yourself asking why or feeling any level of like, "This is not fair?"
Yeah, a lot. I remember-
It seems like I would
... I haven't told anyone this story, but the morning I found out, I was walking
into work, and I just remember dropping to the floor crying, and every-
So you didn't walk in on the scene. You found out-
I was-
... by phone?
... I was at work, yeah. And I had to go through the airport.
Everything had turned white. I was crying in there.
I couldn't even like-
You had to travel home?
I had to travel to Bakersfield.
Oh.
That was in San Francisco. And I bought a ticket for the wrong weekend because I
was just so frantic.
That'd be me.
The lady at the United Airlines-
Yeah
... was so sweet. She helped me. I went through the gate, and I'm just sitting
there crying, and this girl walks up to me.
And I get that you're talking about this because I'm a very spiritual person.
I believe in signs.
Yeah.
This girl walks up to me, and she's like, "Hey, Suz." And I'm just like, "What?"
San Francisco is a huge airport. I had barely moved there. I didn't know anybody.
Yeah.
She ended up being my neighbor's girlfriend and was flying from Washington to see
her, and she just sat with me, and she held me. She sat next to me on the plane.
I will never forget that act of kindness.
And I don't know what I would've done.
I think that was there making sure that I didn't have to go there and face this
alone. But yeah, I wondered a lot like, why?
And I know that I'll never know.
Yeah.
But I've come to terms that it is like a disease of the mind-
Yeah
... and it affects people differently.
Yeah.
I heard someone explain it the other day, like you wouldn't ask someone with a
severed spinal cord to go for a walk kind of thing.
Yeah.
It is this invisible disease that we don't understand.
Yeah.
And some people just are going to succumb to it one day.
Yeah.
So it's a very complicated thing to talk about. Very complicated.
Yeah.
And I know everyone has such a unique experience losing someone that way to
suicide. And everyone's, I think, experience is valid, and I want to say that.
I'm just talking from my personal experience.
Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh.
May I ask, so there was-
Yeah
... no closure or a letter or anything that explained?
No.
So just an open-
Yeah, I really wish I would've gotten a letter.
I don't know which is worse.
I know the-
Maybe if he wrote it, you'd be p****d.
I don't know. I would think about that a lot, like why, why?
But I think in that, I felt selfish asking that.
I let that go because-
Oh, that's a good point
... I think at the-
You're right. That's nosy, and that's like... You know what I mean?
Yeah, I just thought, okay,
how much pain was he in to
where this kind of had happened-
Yeah
... and you ask yourself all of those questions.
Yeah.
But I hope that one day that there will be more research on depression and the mind
and what that does, because there's not a lot out there.
I remember researching a lot about this, and everyone's experience is so unique and
different.
Yeah.
It affects everyone in a very different way.
Yeah.
But it is hard-
It's complicated
... to not understand ever the reason.
Yeah.
And sometimes there isn't. Sometimes there just isn't.
And I think that is the most uncomfortable thing to accept and to sit with.
Mm-hmm.
We had a lot of conversations, actually, about euthanasia and suicide, and
so I feel...
What am I trying to say? I guess I want to say this in a really sensitive way
because I know that is such a sensitive topic-
Yeah
...
in our society. But I think if someone is in so much pain-
Yeah
... ethically, what does that mean to keep-
Yeah
... them here and in their pain?
Yeah.
What is the most humane thing to do?
We would have debates about that a lot.
I have those debates a lot, too, and I sometimes I'll touch on it here, but
people don't like to hear it.
No, no. And-
But it's a fact of life.
It's a fact of life. And I almost think like, could I have had closure or could I
have had a different experience had that been an option for us?
And instead of this really traumatic way that affected
not only me or our friends, his family, my family, just in a really,
really traumatic way, where we were left wondering, and we're left to pick up the
pieces, and had we been able to have a more direct and open
conversation beforehand, and had that been an option? Ugh. Yeah, who knows?
That would not-
Who knows?
Oh my gosh.
And, so I've thought a lot about that, and I want to
be... I know that's available in other countries.
I know to a certain extent it is here, but-
But like you said-
... I think that's the question we're not asking.
Yeah
... if you're somebody who's just like, "I don't feel like myself.
I don't feel good," I can't imagine anybody-
No.
I mean, we wish...
No.
It's like-
You'd be hospitalized
... if you have cancer-
Yeah
... and it's your choice whether to go on chemo or not.
And just like that, I think it should be someone's choice whether or not to remain
in that pain.
Yeah.
But I think that is the ultimate question in healthcare, the ultimate debate in so
many things.
Yeah.
In so many things.
And I guess, I don't know. I know that's a really hard thing to talk about.
Yeah, it is.
I wasn't planning on talking about that, but it just kind of came to me.
I think it's good to just keep the conversation spiking because
the places that don't feel good is really what we, that's what we deal with.
Yeah.
That is our job.
Yeah.
And so,
yeah. So I mean, you can't just walk it off.
Yeah.
And then you also don't want to turn to just drinking it off or like-
Yeah.
But it is, as a healthcare industry, I mean, it's our
daily.
It's what we live.
Yeah.
We see it with our patients.
Yeah.
Um.
Suffering is, I always say suffering is unethical.
Yeah.
And because the question of narcotics comes up a lot, especially with
elderly patients.
Mm-hmm.
They're hurting. They're just bedridden.
A lot of them say they are enrolled in hospice that are six months or less to live,
estimated. It's like, how much is too much? Well, you treat the pain.
Yeah. Yeah, and everyone's so different, right?
Yeah.
Not everyone reacts the same way-
Yes
... to the same, and that's, I think, the difficult piece.
There's this like-
There's this, we have to treat everyone the same way.
There's like-
Protocol
... protocol. This-
Yes
... standardization that needs to apply to everybody, but there has to be,
what am I trying to say? Like-
Intelligence, judgment.
Judgment
Clinical judgment to override.
Yeah. There has to be-
Yes
... a level of being able to go outside of the guardrails-
Yes
... when necessary, when needed
Without calling that cavalier.
Yes.
Or rogue.
Yes.
I will not use that terminology with clinical judgment calls that are...
There's a certain range.
Yeah.
If you're outside of that, there's first, second-degree-
Yeah
... thinking, but then if you're way over here, okay, fine, then you went-
Yeah
... awry.
Healthcare's such a personal thing.
It's personal.
It should be between you and your physician.
Yes.
It is a collaborative relationship.
Yes.
It is not a relationship between
this politician over here or this person over here-
Yeah
... who thinks very strongly about something.
At the end of the day, it's about the patient-
Yes
... and the provider.
Yep.
And them agreeing on what the treatment plan is.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like whenever people bring in the medical-legal aspect, it's like
this is a crowd. Okay?
Yeah.
We have a crowd here. It's no longer just A and B.
Yeah.
There's all of these other players in the treatment plan.
Yeah.
Does it help more than it hurt, or does it hurt more than it helps?
I-
I know.
That brings me to the topic of that end-of-life discussion with your family
and being able to have those direct conversations about what you want done in the
event that you're in a... Derek was a do not resuscitate, DNR, hard on that.
Yeah.
And he would always make me promise, "If I'm ever...
I don't want to be a vegetable. I don't-"
Yeah.
So I don't know. In a way, I feel lucky that I was able to have those types of
conversations with him-
Yeah
... because I knew how he felt about it.
Yeah.
And in a way, it was comforting to me.
Yeah.
But I know not everyone is lucky-
Right
... enough to be able to do that. So I think if I leave anyone with anything, with
a morsel of advice, is have those hard conversations with the people that you love-
Yeah
... while they're here. Because you may not get closure, and life happens so
quickly.
Yes.
And take care of yourself. Allow yourself to be free and to
experience life the way that you want.
I love that. Do you feel like your nervous system has swung back the other way or
overshot?
No. I think I'm coming to this level of calm.
I'm able to sit here and talk to you about the hardest thing I went through without
crying, and-
It's really impressive
... and it is emotional-
Yeah
... but I think I'm feel regulated, and it feels good.
It's a level of healing.
I never thought I would get here, and yet here I am.
Yeah.
So thank you for asking that question, Valerie.
Yeah. Definitely. If anybody were to want
support or would like to connect in any sort of way, how would they reach you?
Oh, InstaJesus on Instagram. But if you're looking for
resources, the American Society for Suicide
Prevention was something that really helped me when I was in San Francisco.
They do this annual walk where you can meet other people who've gone through the
same thing, and I think that was the biggest thing that helped me, to be able to
talk to other people who've lived it, to hear their stories, their experiences,
because it is such a lonely thing to go through.
Yep.
And
so they're a really great place to get connected.
Trevor Project, I'll always
rep them. They're an organization Derek was really passionate about.
And yeah, there's a lot of really great resources online tonight.
We'll continue to talk about this stuff on my Instagram because I think it's really
important.
Yeah.
So thank you for the opportunity to be here, Valerie-
Definitely
... and talk about it.
Yeah. Thank you for your bravery to share it.
And yeah, I think a lot of listeners would also like to
know, in your opinion, do you think that talking about it is for everybody, or is
it something, like you said, sitting in silence?
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe, I guess, both.
Yeah, I think both. Kind of understanding what that person wants.
Yeah.
I know I shared earlier, I'm a fixer, and I just tend to go in and want to solve
things.
Yeah.
But I think kind of taking a step back and asking, "What do you need right now?"
And maybe people will not be able to verbalize, but sitting there.
I know after I lost Derek, I really appreciated the friends that would just come
and sit with me.
Yeah.
I did not want to be alone in that big old house by myself.
Yeah.
And I remember people would come.
They would just come sit with me, and I would just cry, or I would just sit there,
and they would, that physical touch, that hug-
Yeah
... meant so much.
Yeah.
Meant so, so much. And I think if that, like-
So just being present with somebody.
Present.
Don't need to talk about it. If that person wants to share, then let them.
Yeah.
And don't try to give advice. Just be a sounding board.
Yeah. And say, "That's valid."
Yeah.
"That's valid. I love you. I'm here for you," means a lot.
Super helpful.
Yeah. Thank you.
Is there anything else that you would like for us to share, or-
I think that's it. Just spread love.
Yeah. Yes.
Be kind to one another, and
be your beautiful selves.
I love that. Well, you're good at that part, so
let's do this again sometime too.
I would love that. We need to talk about peptides and working out next.
Yes, please.
Well, thank you, Valerie, for the opportunity.
Love you, and have a beautiful rest of your evening.
Same here. So thank you for stopping in the studio, Dr.
Salley, White Coat, Black Sheep.