So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan & Jennifer sit down with Khurram Naik, founder of Freshwater Counsel, to discuss the journey of moving from big law to starting a legal recruiting agency and the importance of authenticity in your career. Khurram, a former patent litigator at Goodwin and Polsinelli, shares how his deep connections and relationship-building approach have fueled his success in the legal world.

He opens up about the challenges of showing up authentically in a firm environment, how social media and LinkedIn became key to his personal brand, and the value of taking risks to build a unique narrative. Khurram also dives into how his family life and values guide his work-life balance and the importance of prioritizing well-being while managing a growing business.

This conversation touches on everything from navigating career transitions and burnout to managing the emotional aspects of legal recruiting. Whether you’re considering a career pivot, seeking to refine your personal brand, or just trying to balance it all, Khurram’s insights are bound to resonate.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts - Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned practice, this podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

[00:00:00] Khurram Naik: When I made that post, I said, I bet this will get 10 likes. I think it's had 10 likes. I am okay with that because I have plenty of other posts to get hundreds of likes. I know the kinds of things that are the greatest hits that people like hearing from me or in general, but I also have to keep on showing up for myself.

[00:00:18] Khurram Naik: So authenticity. I think another key thing that it ties to. Is what drives you. You have to have the right motivation to show up and share things for the right reasons. That helps you hone in on what you wanna write about, and that may necessarily appeal to a much smaller demographic, but it's gonna be high value.

[00:00:34] Khurram Naik: The people that are gonna resonate.

[00:00:36] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast for People where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's

[00:00:51] Jennifer Ramsey: get started. It is my absolute pleasure to introduce Khurram Naik today to our podcast.

[00:00:59] Jennifer Ramsey: He is a former Big Law litigator who practiced patent litigation at Goodwin and Polselli. He runs Freshwater Counsel, a legal recruiting agency that helps elite lawyers make lateral moves to big, Big Law firms and top boutiques. In 2024, Freshwater Counsel placed 19 candidates. Prioritizing relationship building.

[00:01:20] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. And transparency in every placement. I love that. Relationship building. Khurram is active on LinkedIn and hosts the podcast, Khurram’s Quorum. I love that too, where he has in-depth conversations with high performing underrated lawyers based in Milwaukee. So shout out to our Midwest listeners. Khurram lives with his wife and son, close to extended family.

[00:01:44] Jennifer Ramsey: They are expecting their second child in April. Congratulations.

[00:01:48] Khurram Naik: Thank you.

[00:01:49] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes, and welcome. Welcome. We're so happy to have you. You have me

[00:01:53] Khurram Naik: on. I'm, I'm flattered and, um, daunted by having the mic turned on me now.

[00:01:58] Megan Senese: Oh, I love, I love when we get to do this, right, because you, you have to do, you have to do way more of the talking.

[00:02:04] Megan Senese: So it's, it feels like now Jen's, and probably now our listeners are gonna get sick of hearing this, but it feels like every guest now that. We've been having on of late, it starts sort of like this. So the, the way that you and I know each other is because of LinkedIn and so I've been meeting so many people on LinkedIn and it's been this like really great relationship building tool.

[00:02:27] Megan Senese: And I think I was a, a lurker for a while. I think before you and I actually got connected and, um. And the post for me who that stuck out the most was you're like picking up garbage. Like has like nothing to do, um, technically with your work or your career, but it was a post that made its way to me where you were like cleaning up your community and your wife was participating or maybe it was her idea and both of you were doing it and posting and sharing about it.

[00:02:55] Megan Senese: And so I think that is such a great representation of things that we are often telling our lawyers. About being authentic, but also like giving people a sense of what it's, of who are you, what are you doing, what, what is like to work with you? And I feel like someone who's like interested in cleaning up their community is a real good picture of what kind of person you are.

[00:03:18] Megan Senese: And so it's, it's kind of this like. Very interesting path where I had a client who was looking to make a move and I was like, well, I know a recruiter, they pick up garbage. Like, so I think that's, I'm joking, of course, right? Like you were obviously very qualified, but that's the type of person that I wanted to introduce to, to my clients, right?

[00:03:38] Megan Senese: And so then you and I connected and you were able to place them, and then we would have referred each other, other people, and it's just turned into this like really nice relationship. And now here you are on our podcast, so thank you. Yeah.

[00:03:51] Khurram Naik: Thank you. This is, I mean, that is the amazing thing about social media is that it forms these kinds of connections that just, there's how would this ever formed otherwise?

[00:04:00] Megan Senese: Right? Yeah. So the other thing, you and I spent a lot of time, and we spent a lot of time talking about LinkedIn, but one of the things that came up a lot was, you know, how do you show up online? Particularly, like how do you move past when you've been in a big firm, like you were big law, right? Jen and I were big law.

[00:04:15] Megan Senese: How do you move past that, like fear of. Ruffling feathers. Leaning into like telling what your story is, getting the message out, how do you move past kind of all of that to then to, to create this new life, right? You're a new brand, your new company, your wife has joined you. Like how did you move past all of that?

[00:04:36] Khurram Naik: You know, to be honest, I, I think it's definitely an uphill battle to do that while you're at a firm. I, I think there, there's inherently some tradeoffs with being at a firm. And when you're at a firm, you are expected to conform that that is the expectation of being a big platform. That that is the how you get the benefits that come up with those costs of, of that platform, of conforming.

[00:05:03] Khurram Naik: And so I think it is, is really hard to show up authentically and have a unique story that without being concerned about, ruffling some feathers in some form. And so I think that's just part of the trade off that you just have to accept in big law. I think that can shift over time. There certainly are some people who are at big firms who are able to communicate about different aspects of lives and different perspectives they have about their practice.

[00:05:27] Khurram Naik: But I find to be honest, that people are, are best able to do that when they're outside of the big firm. And that can be a bit of a catch way too, because I think any number of people, how they find their opportunities come from sharing themselves. So in my case, a key part of. An essential part of my journey was early pandemic for, for me, you, you know, my trajectory to law was very much built on relationships.

[00:05:51] Khurram Naik: I went to a non-target law school, networked my way to first Elli and then to Goodwin from there, from, from lawyers of met and a joined defense group. And so I, I was very, Chicago is a very strong patent bar, but then other bar associations as well, and. That sort of connection, particularly in person connection was so important to me.

[00:06:13] Khurram Naik: I was a regular at some national conferences, two Affinity Bar Association conferences, um, as well as professional ones for my practice area. And so when the pandemic hit, just when the first things occurred to me as like, wow, I'm not gonna go to those conferences. And that might be weird. I, I imagine it's a weird response for a lot of lawyers if I, I, I, I don't know how many lawyers would've had that response in, in February, 2020.

[00:06:36] Khurram Naik: But that was my reaction. So, you know, the thing that I did in response to that was I had very tentatively started posting LinkedIn. I remember posting about like a mango smoothie recipe that I made one time that actually I got from somebody that I, that from Heather Stevenson, who's very after the LinkedIn and has amazing content.

[00:06:56] Khurram Naik: It's very insightful. And so I actually got it from her juice bar in Boston. So she had a juice bar. She left law to go run a juice bar. And so funny just what a weird little world that we occupy. She, in a funny way, was probably responsible for me sharing myself on LinkedIn in, in a vulnerable way first.

[00:07:13] Khurram Naik: But, so I started posting in the early pandemic about movements and, um, how, how to make it happen. Like, how do, like it's a weird economy. How do you. Network your way. Here's the things I did. And so I started sharing that and barely any lawyers were posting like that at that time. So just the post blew up.

[00:07:31] Khurram Naik: And so early on I had people reaching out to me to ask me about, Hey, well, I mean, can you talk me through this? I'm thinking about going to this firm or, or making this career move. And, and shorter I realized, okay, I'm, I'm doing all the work legal recruiter without getting paid. So, and you were

[00:07:42] Megan Senese: still in house at this point?

[00:07:44] Khurram Naik: I was still a, a good one.

[00:07:46] Megan Senese: Yep. Okay.

[00:07:47] Khurram Naik: Yeah. I, I guess that's what you meant by in house.

[00:07:49] Megan Senese: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:50] Khurram Naik: Sorry. So, yeah, I mean, so because of that weird set of circumstances that facilitated me communicating that way and that paved a path to going online, I. Um, and I just talked to, there's lawyer, Sonny Kim, who I just connected with yesterday.

[00:08:04] Khurram Naik: And, you know, she's doing a great job of, of sharing her story. You know, her, I'm not surprised. And, you know, we were talking and she said, Hey, you know what, the, in her case, kind of similar story, like somewhat similar and that she quit her job and then posted about, Hey, I quit my job, here's why. And that blew up and it's like, oh, oh, let just start talking about what I'm doing.

[00:08:24] Khurram Naik: And then that, that kinda led to, so. I think a lot of it is the constraints of being in a big firm. It's just difficult to make that a platform for you to communicate, but then, you know, if you put yourself in a position where you can move outta that platform and start expressing yourself, I think that's part of the risk you have to take and, and you have to have the confidence to know that, that your story will be relevant.

[00:08:44] Khurram Naik: I think a ton of people are, you know, golden handcuffs or otherwise are in big law and want to try something else. But it's really hard to, it's really hard to, I think it, if you step out, that will facilitate being authentic. So it's not a satisfying answer that, you know, I would love to say, Hey, if you're authentic first, that creates the opportunities.

[00:09:08] Khurram Naik: It does. That is part of the flywheel. I think Heather's been, for instance, focal about her story, about how she found her role as general counsel of the fund through. Her LinkedIn presence and people say, Hey, you know, you have the mixture skills of fact that you were a litigator, then you ran your own business.

[00:09:24] Khurram Naik: Like you've got this entrepreneurial business mindset that we want. That was a product of her LinkedIn presence. So yeah, I would love to say that, you know, you can just run the whole flywheel. While you're at a firm, but I think realistically you have to make a change in order to get that going.

[00:09:40] Megan Senese: I think that all makes sense, obviously.

[00:09:41] Megan Senese: And I think the other thing that's so like helpful is that you, not only do you, I don't, I think I saw your, your, um, juice recipe or your mango smoothie recipe, but you have posted about lots of things. You know, talking about how you manage your money right, is kind of one thing, which I think is also helpful, particularly for those with.

[00:10:00] Megan Senese: The, the golden handcuffs. You have also spent time, Jen, this is where you can start talking about yoga. You've talked about, um, how yoga, you've incorporated yoga, you know, into your, into your practice. And I'm gonna imagine that would also set you apart, right from, there's so many recruiters, right? There's so many legal recruiters.

[00:10:17] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm. And, you know, why, how are people finding you right now? I'm assuming most of it is still like from LinkedIn.

[00:10:25] Khurram Naik: Yeah. I'll say, you know, there's plenty of outreach I did. I. But until two, uh, something changed two months ago and there's been a huge in surge, surge, what's the word I'm looking for? Growth of inbound people reaching out to me on LinkedIn.

[00:10:41] Khurram Naik: So yeah, something, that's another thing that's that important to understand is like this process is highly nonlinear. So like I've been at this for five years. And, and granted, like, I haven't had the same role throughout that whole period of time. So it's not like, Hey, I've been doing the exact same thing, but I've been online in five years.

[00:10:57] Khurram Naik: But yeah, so it then, but then as, you know, a founder of my agency for in three months, it'll be two years. So it takes a little while, you know, even when you have an established presence for people to wrap their heads around what you do in your value proposition. But yeah, I mean, as you say, Megan, I mean, uh, one lens on what we do is it, it's totally a commodity, right?

[00:11:15] Khurram Naik: Just like, and frankly, that's no less true for. Any big firm, I mean like whatever big company they are not sending their work to one firm. I don't care how good that firm is. They send their work to a number of firms. Even the biggest law firms are still commodities in the eyes of their clients. Everyone is right.

[00:11:34] Khurram Naik: So we're all competing now. That is, that is a reality of where we are now. And so, yeah, so I, I, I am competing in a key, in a key part that I am competing is. Through people understanding how I think and my approach to work. I imagine it's not for everyone. I'm, I imagine there's some people say, Hey, that's not a fit for me for some reason.

[00:11:56] Khurram Naik: But it is a major attractor for a lot of people. Where I interviewed Lp Ry of Boston on my podcast, who's a co-managing partner, SU Godfrey, which, which many people know is one of the strongest litigation boutiques. And she has a great principle. She uses, I, I asked her about my podcast about business development, how she thinks about it.

[00:12:12] Khurram Naik: And she says, you know what I, I'm not a huge fan of is one-on-one lunches where I'm just like talking about how great I am. That that doesn't do anything for me. I prefer things like panels where I can use a principle of show don't tell. And so, you know, when I think about that, probably for her is first, it's, it's substantive where on any given panel, she's showcasing some expertise.

[00:12:31] Khurram Naik: And then it's also a lot of extemporaneous thinking. And so that probably appeals to people as well to say, well, she's a trial lawyer. So that's the core skill set is thinking on your feet, so you're able to see it right there in person. In the same way I I, I try to show, hey, here is the actual activity.

[00:12:47] Khurram Naik: So about once a week we have quantitative digest of here's the activity we're having. And I think that's helpful for people to see those numbers. Okay. Like that is actually what's happening, that the, the outcomes this lawyer is driving quantitatively. And then I try to make another post about the qualitative approaches to our work and how to think about it.

[00:13:06] Khurram Naik: And then, yeah, I, I, I also, I aim for about three posts a week. And then another post is just things about my personal life that I think could be interesting or relevant people. And there's plenty of ways to make intersections of those. I mean, my post yesterday. Was about how we went to Maine last month. I have a house in Maine, it's where we lived early, the pandemic when we got outta Boston, and we, we held onto it.

[00:13:28] Khurram Naik: And so I went there to install some heat pumps. And then in the course of that, so I mean, I, I'm drafting this post, I'm like, okay, I don't know if anyone's gonna read this post because I'm talking about heat pumps. And people are like, why the hell is this guy? Talk about it. I thought

[00:13:39] Jennifer Ramsey: it was brilliant.

[00:13:40] Khurram Naik: I know it, you liked it.

[00:13:41] Khurram Naik: Okay. So I thought it was brilliant. So you get it. But I mean, so it's only people who are gonna read the posts who are gonna get it, and so. I, I wanna talk about this because these heat pumps, it, it's like a two-way refrigerant and it's, it's much more energy efficient. It's important in Maine because Maine is all, so many of the houses aren't oil, including our house still has oil, uh, just as a backup heat.

[00:14:02] Khurram Naik: So of course it's just terrible for the environments and expensive and just paying, and for some reasons you want something that's cheaper and and renewable. And so, you know, in the course of doing, I did all this research in advance. I talked about Celine in the post. I did all this research and kinda wrap my head around the analytical parts of what would mean to, to purchase this thing.

[00:14:24] Khurram Naik: But I, I never had one of these before. I didn't really know how to, and so it's just all kind of abstract. Like, okay, I, I get the concept, but like, what does it look like literally or, or figuratively to, to do this back of the envelope says this is a good idea financially, but now what? So it was like, okay, lemme just flip it on its head.

[00:14:40] Khurram Naik: Lemme just see what my options are. And then that'll help me figure out what to do so that I, I figure out who the three best, uh, servicers are that install these main, main leads, the country in this. So like any of these installers would, would have a relatively high volume compared to any other part of the country, and so got estimates from them and was able to make apples to oranges comparisons.

[00:15:01] Khurram Naik: No two was exactly alike. That's kind of how any of this HVAC kind of stuff works. But close enough. I'm like, okay, now I get this provider. Seems like they overall get it the most, it seems like they have the best products. And I can get this heat pump water heater too. Okay, great. Now I get it. Now I was able to make an action around this plan.

[00:15:17] Khurram Naik: So like I needed to see my options. I couldn't just like, think up the perfect thing in a vacuum, right? And so then I, I realized, okay, this is such an obvious connection to legal recruiting, where so many times the lawyers I work with, these are all really smart lawyers with, with that can have great options we work with.

[00:15:36] Khurram Naik: Very strong legal talent. That's, that's the mark we fo on, focus on is like in law 50 firms and elite boutiques. So everyone in these words we work with has multiple options and our goal is to get 'em multiple offers. And so, but in advance, any number of these people are like, well, you know, here's all the things I'm thinking about and here's my criteria and here's a perfect firm or, or what I think would be the fur firm.

[00:15:56] Khurram Naik: But ultimately all that thinking and research can be completely moot if those firms don't wanna meet with you and you just, you just don't know who's actually gonna wanna meet with you and what that conversation's gonna look like, and you progress through it and eventually get an offer. It's a cliche to say, oh, here's this thing I experienced this other part of my life that leads to my, that connects to my business.

[00:16:16] Khurram Naik: So there's like the anti cliche, which is, oh ho, ho I, I'll tell you about 40 things I learned, but Turning 40. Just kidding. And so I think the response is, is way overrated. 'cause like there are great things you can learn about work from outside. So I made this post about it fully knowing that the lead is about heat pumps in Maine.

[00:16:34] Khurram Naik: And that is not gonna be interesting to most of my audience. But I wrote the post 'cause a, I genuinely believe in the insight or the connection between realizing, Hey, you have to look at your options first, and that is a tangibility where the market will pave a path for you and clarify you of all the options on the planet.

[00:16:53] Khurram Naik: Here's the three things before you write now that you can consider. I generally like that insight and so I still made that post. It was, it was authentic. Uh, but I wanna tie it to another concept, which is. It's also about what sustains your interest. I liked writing that post. It took 40 minutes from eight to eight 40 the night before, and I enjoyed writing that.

[00:17:18] Khurram Naik: So I, when I made that post, I said, I bet this will get 10 likes. I think it's had 10 likes. I am okay with that because. I have plenty of the posts to get hundreds of likes. I know the kinds of things that are the greatest hits that people like hearing from me or in general, but I also have to keep on showing up for myself.

[00:17:36] Khurram Naik: So authenticity. I think another key thing that it ties to is what drives you. I. You have to have the right motivation to show up and share things for the right reasons. That helps you hone in on what you wanna write about. And that may necessarily appeal to a much smaller demographic, but it's gonna be high value.

[00:17:52] Khurram Naik: The people that are gonna resonate, that's gonna resonate with us.

[00:17:54] Jennifer Ramsey: So I, I loved it because my husband is really into heat pumps lately. Okay. And I just thought this was hysterical. And, and let me say this, I am not prolific. On LinkedIn, like the both of you. Okay. So I'm like a good little test case here because Khurram, we're not connected on LinkedIn, which will change as soon as this podcast is over.

[00:18:20] Jennifer Ramsey: But as I was doing my research, right, I looked at your LinkedIn and the way that you show up on LinkedIn for me and to me. All of a sudden I was like, I cannot wait to talk to him. I cannot wait to talk to him. First of all, he's talking about heat pumps, so he must be some analytical quant engineering brain type, like my husband, 'cause my husband's a, a software engineer.

[00:18:51] Jennifer Ramsey: So

[00:18:51] Megan Senese: that was you. And you, Jen, when he was talking through, and then I did this, and then I reached out to this, and then I went to all my options and I was like, oh my God. And you both have rental properties, like there's so many things like don't, don't. Yes, Lee. Okay. Yes, Lee and also Jen Ramsey. Okay. Okay.

[00:19:07] Jennifer Ramsey: Well, and this is, this is, you know, this is, LinkedIn is not my favorite. I, it is an uncomfortable place for me. It's not my favorite place. However, this connection right here is super interesting to me because as you said at the beginning, both of you. Without LinkedIn, we would not be having this conversation together.

[00:19:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Sure. But I want to say that I love, okay, so I also got onto your wife Emma's post and she was talking about working together and all of the really cool things that you two get to do together outside of work, but, but it's part of work. Like go to yoga on Tuesday, Thursday, Thursday and Saturday mornings, which is.

[00:19:51] Jennifer Ramsey: I teach yoga on those days, so I'm like, I, oh my God. Instant connection with hoem. Right. And then love it. I see your post about doing handstands. And I'm like, and then the way that you tied that together, so this is just a long-winded way of saying you, you said you post three to four times a week and you mix it up.

[00:20:13] Jennifer Ramsey: I love the personal elements that you pull in, but you also tie it at work
because I love how you were talking about movement, right? Movement in the body and through yoga, and also movement for your clients. Right, like you're providing movement for them to move on to green during or pastures, and I just was like, this is, I can't wait to talk to Khurram.

[00:20:38] Khurram Naik: I'm not talking about movement for the purpose of talking about lateral movement, but of course that's, it's not lost to me that, you know, I, I think about movement and then of course it's professionally what I work on.

[00:20:48] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. I thought it was a great tie. I thought it was just beautiful. It's a, it's a beautiful way to tell a story.

[00:20:54] Jennifer Ramsey: Right. And that's why litigators are interesting to work with because I think they're really good at telling stories. They know how to tell a story. Um, and I. You love? Yeah, we love, love litigators. Litigators love. I think it's cool that you specialize in that too. You specialize in litigation. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:09] Jennifer Ramsey: Right. So anyway, I just, how is your handstand practice going, by the way, John, you wanna, so it's,

[00:21:14] Khurram Naik: it's taken a dip because I had, I think maybe my levator scapula just got a little sensitive in the past months. And I think it's because, to be honest, I, when I practice on my own, I probably don't warm up enough that I, uh, as I should.

[00:21:27] Khurram Naik: So that too has been something for me to reflect on. Is. The balance between going really hard and consistent and then also allowing myself to slow down a little bit. It's a big picture thing that I am grappling with it, that I've grappled with for years is, you know, I, I feel like I progress, I feel like I maintain strength at least, and maybe in some ways I get stronger.

[00:21:47] Khurram Naik: But yeah, it, it's something that's a permanently thing that, you know, you get digging every now and then and, and it slows you down and you don't want it, but, uh, you have to deal with it.

[00:21:54] Megan Senese: Well, that seems like the Knights segue into one of the questions that we have canned for you, which is, can you talk to us about a time when your work life balance completely failed and did you learn anything?

[00:22:07] Megan Senese: What can you tell us?

[00:22:09] Khurram Naik: Well, I think probably the most challenging time for me professionally was when I was, when I was at when, when I was in a big firm, so, so. Both firms, you know, it just, any firm is gonna be a challenge for anyone. It just, it's just a lot of hours. And so, you know, my situation when I moved to Boston is I didn't have any family there.

[00:22:27] Khurram Naik: And so, yeah, it was, it was, I was working a lot of hours more than I was in my previous firm and I lived very close to my office, which was really nice in so many ways. But then, of course, meant that it was just easier just to hang around the office longer. Uh, so work definitely was the number one thing in my life.

[00:22:44] Khurram Naik: I didn't have, I didn't have significant other, I didn't have children. And so, um, yeah, I definitely allowed work to kind of fill, to expand the time. And so I, then I also would do things like, you know, there's plenty of stressors at work that everyone experiences and we all respond for different ways. I, I was working out really consistently, but then I was also.

[00:23:06] Khurram Naik: I was taking caffeine during the, the day and, and just to perk myself up. And then at the nighttime, I'm all hops up my caffeine. So what I do, I have a drink or two. And so, you know, that was a cycle. And yeah, I, at the time it was, I. I was getting by 'cause I, I exercised and I otherwise ate healthy and I got some sleep, you know, prioritized sleep.

[00:23:27] Khurram Naik: So that was getting me by. But at some point I realized, uh, it was unsustainable. And so it was actually in, at the very end of December 20, 29, 20 19. So like a little more than five years that I cut out caffeine and alcohol. So I cut out caffeine for four and a half years. So six months ago I've, I've picked up caffeine again, but I still have cut out alcohol.

[00:23:48] Khurram Naik: But, um, but yeah, I, I definitely hit my limit then. Uh, and so that was a wake up call, but like cutting those out in my life was very beneficial for me and gave me a lot of, it forced me to become a lot better at managing my emotions 'cause it couldn't just turn to a drug to help me with that. So that was, and now I have family life and I think something to think about family life is.

[00:24:07] Khurram Naik: Of course you inherently enjoy your family, but I think people don't talk enough about the value that family gives you in terms of structure. There's a lot of value in having structure and habits and routines in life and, and children, small children really forced that. You're forced to be efficient with your time.

[00:24:26] Khurram Naik: So yeah, I think that's also been really beneficial for me to, as an antidote to, in a way, to prevent myself from. Getting overextended in that way. Mm,

[00:24:36] Megan Senese: mm-hmm. I mean, we, we spent Jen and I've spent a lot of time, and Jen, this is a word, word that you've used before, that, you know, we're now at stage in our new life and two years in that we're very busy.

[00:24:47] Megan Senese: Right. And we're working a lot more, but we also have what you've talked about the word spaciousness, like we're, it's our own. And we feel like the business has allowed us more spaciousness even though we're like very busy and stressed in kind of different ways. And both of us, I haven't drank in, in. Uh, probably almost 10 years.

[00:25:05] Megan Senese: Um, very similar kind of stories where we saw kind of this path that was not going so great. And, um, we have some history in both of our sides of our family and so we just cut it out. And in Jen, you. Have dabbled in, you know, Jane Dry. I've tried to, it's

[00:25:20] Jennifer Ramsey: a struggle. It's a struggle for, you know, I, I'm like, you oram.

[00:25:24] Jennifer Ramsey: I, I, every now and then I'm like, I like to have a couple glasses of wine at the end of the day. And I, I really applaud people who can cut it out. And I, that is a goal. It's an absolute goal's hard. I don about the yoga helps. Yes, yoga helps.

[00:25:37] Khurram Naik: Yeah. I mean, if you've gotta workout in the morning, you know, you can't really go to town.

[00:25:40] Jennifer Ramsey: Yep. Yeah.

[00:25:42] Khurram Naik: And for me with drinking, it's really kind of an all and un proposition. I just, I really, I would love to have two drinks, but I just know I won't do that. Yep. So it just, for me, it's just easier to just cut it out entirely.

[00:25:52] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.

[00:25:52] Khurram Naik: Uh, and an unrated part of that is it also just isn't on your mind at all.

[00:25:55] Khurram Naik: Then you're not even thinking about, Hey, like, what am I gonna drink? What are conditions? What am I gonna drink?

[00:26:00] Megan Senese: Right. Yes. Yeah. It just becomes about it. Hundred percent. There's so many lawyers I think that turn to. You know, drinking, they don't really have time necessarily to do any other activities, and so that's becomes the, like, the reward, right?

[00:26:15] Megan Senese: At the end of the day, you earned it and or you can sit down at your desk and drink at the same time and work, right? And so you could have a beer and look over a contract or whatever.

[00:26:24] Khurram Naik: I'll add one more thing, which is there's a lot of alcohol has done very well 'cause there's a lot of prestige around drinking.

[00:26:30] Khurram Naik: You can get, you know, sure. How many lawyers have I taught to and said, let me show you my fancy liquor cabinets. So like there then now it seems like you're this,

[00:26:38] Megan Senese: you're not fun. Well, but.

[00:26:40] Khurram Naik: Well, if you don't do it, I'm not, yeah, I'm not fun. I know that. But, but the people who do have that, it's, it's, you are a, uh, connoisseur, a sophisticated connoisseur.

[00:26:48] Khurram Naik: That's what I'm looking for. Yes,

[00:26:49] Megan Senese: sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, bourbon and whiskey, right? All of the, the fancy things that people send as gifts, and what I was kind of getting at is like, if you don't participate in that, then like you're not fun. You're like, you're not. It. And there's so many client events that are around, you know, a whiskey taste event or a wine tasting or a flight night, or, I mean, and I have facilitated a lot of those, particularly when we were, you know, on the BD side right.

[00:27:12] Megan Senese: For clients. And so I think it's, you know, it's shifting. I think there's a lot of people who are looking to move away and doing non-alcoholic activities. One of the, actually one of the, I was talking to someone that I met on LinkedIn and he was telling me that he. He doesn't drink. And you know, going to Bar Association events has becoming really stressful because they're just full of, they're just full of alcohol.

[00:27:33] Megan Senese: And he, so my suggestion was like, well, could you do a non-alcoholic event? Just like make the event be non-alcoholic? 'cause he was explaining to me that he had quite a few people who felt the same way and it just had never really occurred to him. It's kind of a basic concept, but that he decided to do that.

[00:27:49] Megan Senese: He's going to have a. Like a non-alcoholic event and that's going to be like nice. The the headlines. So I think there's different ways that you can kind of approach that. I mean, this is a good segue, I

[00:27:58] Jennifer Ramsey: think for Yeah. 'cause it's related. How do you handle situations where work demands conflict with your personal values or commitments?

[00:28:08] Jennifer Ramsey: I. It

[00:28:08] Khurram Naik: is hard. So, uh, we were talking a little bit before we started that, um, the agency has been very busy. Right now we've already made five placements and, and there's a very active pipeline right now of, of lawyers who are, who are going through the process right now. And so, yeah, just the work just keeps coming and that's, you know, when you have a business, particularly one that's pretty new.

[00:28:31] Khurram Naik: Uh, and a young family, I think for lots of reasons, uh, you feel very compelled to just drive and, and just make the most seize this opportunity. So like, I have incredible momentum and so I'm gonna make the most of it. And so that is a very compelling reason to do things. But it is also hard. Like it's hard because this isn't, maybe, I think maybe I would've been more successful in big law if I did internalize more about my cases and like think about them in the shower.

[00:28:59] Khurram Naik: Didn't do that then, but I sure do it now. And so, so it's, it is really a, a at some of a 24 hour job. I think Megan, the way you were framing it was good in amazing ways. This 24 hour job where your brain is constantly milling and refining on everything. So, uh, I definitely think about this business as a craft and as a business.

[00:29:21] Khurram Naik: And I've, I'm, I was just reflecting on this with, you know, I was talking to my therapist about this, about just work in general and, and I think. You know, she was asking like, Hey, how does it feel like now that your business is growing so much? Like what's changed for you? Like, are you able to still, you are very relationship driven.

[00:29:37] Khurram Naik: Are you still getting that fulfillment relationships? 'cause necessarily you cannot spend the same amount of time with any given lawyer. And so it's a good observation that, yeah, that definitely has changed and I definitely had to accommodate, and I, I use the concept of the 80 20 principle a lot. And so yeah, I've had to figure out what is the 20% of time I can spend with any given one of my lawyers I work with to get 80% of the benefit out of that.

[00:30:01] Khurram Naik: I've definitely refined techniques over time to make the most out of a short period of time I have with any of these lawyers to advance 'em all and still build quality relationships with them because referrals are a key part or are an essential part of my business.

[00:30:12] Jennifer Ramsey: You know, you said your business is a craft and it's a business, and I think.

[00:30:16] Jennifer Ramsey: What for all of us since we started our own, I think it's the, the most, one of the most powerful things is, is it's a choice, right? We are choosing to do this. Yes. When we were in house big law we, it, there was a fair amount of autonomy and agency that was taken away and because we were working for someone else and we were owners, even though they so badly wanted us to have an owner's mindset.

[00:30:41] Jennifer Ramsey: Which is always cracks me up. No, you have an owner's mindset when you are an owner and now we are owners and, and we made the choice to do it. And I'm a little on my soapbox because this is, I learned, I'm like learning about this. I've never been a business owner, entrepreneur before. Right. And it's like, okay, we're really busy and there are times when work is going to maybe out skew more than family or whatever.

[00:31:07] Jennifer Ramsey: Mm-hmm. But it is still our choice. Because we started the business and I think that is a really, I, that's what I have to remind myself and I'm like, ah, I, I don't think I can handle it. It's like, well, at least this was my choice.

[00:31:21] Khurram Naik: That's a great observation. Yeah. As as and I time to yoga, there's a, a yoga teacher I, I worked with in Chicago who would say an easy reframe for almost everything is instead of, I have to, I get to, and so.

[00:31:35] Khurram Naik: So that is helpful. And you know, I have a friend who started a, a business law firm, and he's, he's busy and he's growing. He also has a young family of, with a child that's about the same age. And so we, we talk a lot about, you know, starting a new business. And so for him, he is like, you know, I, I talk to him every now and then when I'm feeling burnout, I talk to him and, you know, it sounds like he's like, Hey, like I've been able to reframe so that, you know, I, I feel burnout less because I'm thinking about.

[00:31:59] Khurram Naik: Higher values of, of what I'm doing this for, I'm doing for my family. And so that sounds like that's worked for him. I can't say this really worked for me. It's not like enough to say, Hey, you know, I've got my family and this is really taking care of my family. That definitely is a major motivator in context, but it's not enough to handle burnout, so, mm-hmm.

[00:32:18] Khurram Naik: The best solution for burnout is not working. And so, so I'm fortunate because my, since I've started the business, my wife Emma, joined the business a number of months ago, and so she's my partner and she's a recruiter, so she handles all aspects of recruiting and then also she is. Involved with the operations of the business and really it's putting a lot of structure and I think that's definitely something that she is excels at, is structure in planning in that way.

[00:32:44] Khurram Naik: And so, so she has insisted for some time that I take a day off and so on, on the question of like, Hey, how do you deal with the collision of work and personal? So we're going through right now. So, so my wife has scheduled, she's put on the calendar as of this morning, a day off that I have in the next couple weeks.

[00:32:59] Khurram Naik: Um, it's not to say I've taken zero days off. My wife and I did. We were really fortunate that with family we were able to watch our little one and so she and I did a yoga retreat together. Yoga again last summer in western part of Wisconsin, there's a region of Wisconsin, Minnesota called the Driftless, where the ice, the glaciers didn't come through.

[00:33:16] Khurram Naik: So it's a little rockier there. It's not saying much, but, but what's interesting about there is that there's a bunch of organic farms. 'cause the land was cheap there. 'cause like agri farms, big agri businesses didn't wanna buy that, that. Land, it wasn't good for nuking and with fertilizers and stuff like that.

[00:33:30] Khurram Naik: Yeah. So there's, it's a great part of the state. Mm-hmm. But, um, so I, I, that was super refreshing and rechargeable when we did that, but now I think we, we need to build in regular time off. And so will you take the time off

[00:33:42] Jennifer Ramsey: together or will you

[00:33:44] Khurram Naik: together.

[00:33:45] Jennifer Ramsey: So you'll take the days off together versus you take it all two?

[00:33:47] Khurram Naik: Yes. Everyone at the, at the agency will take the day off together. Okay. And so my first reaction is that, how is that gonna work? Mm-hmm. Anna's first reaction is, yes, how will we make this work? So she's determined to make it work, and so she's building instructures say, okay, we will, we'll let everyone know.

[00:34:03] Khurram Naik: I mean, if things, of course, like urgently have to happen, interviews have to happen the day, et cetera. We will, we will get it done. We will get it done. But then otherwise, we are shutting down. And so she's working from the proposition of how we'll make this happen. And so I'm daunted by it. I am not excited about it, but I know it'll be beneficial for me.

[00:34:23] Khurram Naik: And, um, so yeah, I think these are this, I'm, I'm sure these principles will be, uh, clickable to people who aren't just outta business, but I think people who are outta business will feel it the most of. I cannot let go of a day. And so that's part of what I have to practice is that is building in this. So, so there's a longevity to this and, and we, it's a sustainability for all of us.

[00:34:45] Megan Senese: It comes up all the time, even just for all of our lawyers who, yes, they're still in the big law, but like they, in the big law firms, they're afraid of taking a day off because they're not gonna hit their billable hours, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and so then they have to, if they take the day off, then they're gonna feel it.

[00:35:01] Megan Senese: Uh, accelerated at some other point. And then I think that I did not really resonate with that as much when we were still working for the big firms. I resonate with it more now. I, you know, Jen and I have definitely taken. Vacations and we, which meant that we just work from someplace else, right? Yeah. Or, you know, maybe I work, you know, instead of me sitting in my basement for eight to 10 hours, then I'm, I'm, you know, I, I was just in Vermont and so I logged on.

[00:35:30] Megan Senese: I told my husband, eh, it's gonna be an hour. And he's like, you know, you've been here for like three hours. I was like, yeah, but like, I'm in front of the fireplace. It's okay. There's parts of me that keeps kind of reminding myself like, this is the growth. This is like the growing pains of like being a startup baby business.

[00:35:44] Megan Senese: We're just toddlers, you know, we're only two years old, but I, I feel that and we'll, we can talk about, you can tell me how it goes. 'cause in, in July, Jen, when I go away to Hawaii for two weeks, I, I'm, I don't know if I'm allowed to bring my laptop according to God. I don't even wanna talk about that right now.

[00:35:59] Megan Senese: Yeah. So we could talk about that. So let's know how it goes. Let us know how I can learn when you take your day off. All right. Well I think we probably have time for probably one more question, and this is where I like to, 'cause I, I love to talk and, and take the microphones. So this is where I usually put Jen on the spot and say, Jen, make sure that you got all your, you got all your questions.

[00:36:18] Megan Senese: If you wanna ask the last kind of the last question, you can wrap us. You can wrap us up. You

[00:36:23] Jennifer Ramsey: know we have some, yeah, we have some good ones. Khurram. What would you say is the most. Profound personal sacrifice you've made for your career, and was it worth it?

[00:36:36] Khurram Naik: So I, I, my wife and I are fortunate that we are aligned on values.

[00:36:43] Khurram Naik: We, we, we didn't have, we don't have we resolutions I think ever, but we always, but the New Year's always clarifying for thinking about, hey, like what are the processes we have? And yeah, maybe some goals. May, maybe just resolution is a loaded word, but so values is something that we use this year. So we both identified, we didn't set out say, let's make sure we have the same values, but like we just identified in our ourselves, Hey, what are our three values may happen to be the same three.

[00:37:12] Khurram Naik: And so it's work and movements and family. And so what's not at list are things like things that we love because if you don't. If you didn't actually prioritize something you didn't, if you didn't say, some things are important, some things aren't, you didn't prioritize at all. And so what, what is not on the list are things like travel.

[00:37:34] Khurram Naik: What is not on the list are things like time with friends. What is not on the list are things like creative pursuits. And so all three of those are very meaningful things to me that I still work in some level, but I try to tie them into ways that are convenient for me. So like for instance, last night.

[00:37:52] Khurram Naik: Had a friend over who, which is a friend from here in Milwaukee who's a completely different industry. He owns a bunch of residential real estate. And so what's convenient for us is to make him dinner and he comes over and so then, you know, we put our toddler down while he is hanging out and, and then we would just talk a little bit, then we wrap up by no later than eight 30.

[00:38:15] Khurram Naik: 'cause that's pretty much when we go to bed. And so. You know, that's not ideal for a lot of friendships, right? That's not how friendships are typically grown is at someone's apartment as a toddler's going down and, and dinners at 6 30, 4 o'clock. Uh, so right. Four o'clock and so, um, that sounds

[00:38:33] Megan Senese: good to me.

[00:38:33] Megan Senese: We, that sounds good to me. We can all be friends. We all be friends.

[00:38:38] Khurram Naik: That's kinda what happens. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I, I, I think that, so, but I mean, it's not to say that things that aren't a priority don't happen at all, but it has to be built around the other priorities or things like travel. You know, I just mentioned this trip to Maine and so, um, got some time to see one of the lawyers I just placed in Boston.

[00:38:55] Khurram Naik: And so there definitely are ways to make overlaps between these. But you know, we have our prayers in place and so it necessarily means some things that we give up in the short term for the benefit of achieving those other goals. And then, and then long term, be able to get what sets that say, you know, you can't have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want.

[00:39:13] Khurram Naik: Mm

[00:39:13] Megan Senese: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I love that. I mean, you can't, yeah, you can't be all the things all at once. So if people want to connect with you, they can follow you on LinkedIn, they can listen to your podcast, um, they can visit your website at freshwatercounsel.com. They can email you. I mean, I'm, you're pretty accessible so you, they can reach out.

[00:39:37] Megan Senese: People are looking for a role or you can contact us and we can connect you. We're super connected. So we are so excited that you were able to join us and I'm, I'm just kind of love how our little story is continuing to unfold and I'm hopeful that we'll be able to continue to refer more people to you, particularly with our new, with this podcast.
[00:39:54] Megan Senese: And Jen, do you wanna take us out with your. Yoga. Yeah,

[00:39:59] Jennifer Ramsey: I always have a little yoga thing, you know, because it's like my, it's what I would do all the time if it paid all the bills, right. So to you and my lovely partner Megan, and to our audience listening, stay human, stay inspired and namaste. That's it for today.

[00:40:17] Megan Senese: Join us next time on So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast for People. Can't get enough of us? Visit us at www.stage.guide.