The Startup CPG Podcast


In this episode of the Startup CPG Podcast, host Daniel Scharff sits down with Bob Williams of BevSource - a beverage industry veteran Daniel calls "the beverage Oracle" - to unpack the most common (and costly) manufacturing mistakes beverage brands run into with co-packers.


Bob has spent over 25 years in the beverage industry, most of it around co-packing, quality, and manufacturing operations. He's built out eight high-speed can lines and spent his career getting called in when something has already gone wrong - troubleshooting everything from mysterious can leaks to failed micro tests. Daniel, who previously ran a beverage brand himself and worked with Bob directly, brings his own founder experience to the conversation, pulling real examples from his time scaling into thousands of retail doors.


Daniel and Bob dig into why "leakers" are almost never actually a can problem, what really happens when a co-packer cuts corners on pasteurization, how to properly vet a manufacturing facility before you sign anything, and what documentation every brand should be asking for - before and after something goes wrong.


Listen in as they discuss:

  • Why brewery-turned-co-packers often struggle with the regulatory and equipment shift into non-beer beverages
  • The real root cause behind most can "leakers" - and why it's almost never actually the can
  • What seam check reports are, why they matter, and how outdated equipment can produce unreliable results
  • A real case where a co-packer skipped tunnel pasteurization entirely - and what happened as a result
  • Why brands should never sign a co-packing agreement before physically touring the facility
  • What to look for on a co-packer site visit, from RO systems to master sanitation programs
  • Real warning signs Bob has seen on-site, including uncalibrated equipment and neglected water filtration systems
  • Why full documentation - batch records, QA reports, maintenance logs - should never be treated as proprietary
  • What to expect (and not panic about) during your first production run and taste-matching process
  • Why shelf life and stability testing should start the moment your formula is finalized, not after launch




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Creators and Guests

Host
Daniel Scharff
Founder/CEO, Startup CPG

What is The Startup CPG Podcast?

The top CPG podcast in the world, highlighting stories from founders, buyer spotlights, highly practical industry insights - all to give you a better chance at success.

Bob Williams
This was a leakers issue. I asked them for their seam check report. They showed me and all the seams were in spec, by the way. So it kind of baffled me a little bit. Went back into the lab and I said, okay, walk me through your process on how you're doing these seam checks. And they were using kind of old school hand micrometers that weren't calibrated and whatnot and they were getting variations in the results. And so in this particular case, it came down to the equipment. Right. And so I was able to show them, you know, by taking the micrometer and passing it around that hey, we all got different answers here. And then you're, what's the correct answer? So there was no repeatability, no reliability there.

00:52
Daniel Scharff
Hello, startup CPGers. I really think I have the best job in the world. I get to build community. I do my best to help early stage brands, but I wouldn't know how to do any of that if I hadn't run a brand myself. I was the CEO for beverage brand, launching from scratch, getting into nearly 3,000 retail doors and I learned so much along the way. I met some incredible people and today I get to introduce you to one of them. It's Bob Williams from BevSource. I refer to Bob as the beverage oracle. He knows more about beverage manufacturing and production than anyone I've ever met. And today on the podcast he is going to share so many of these lessons for us.

01:27
Daniel Scharff
Whether you're a beverage brand or a food brand or anyone else in the ecosystem, I think you're going to find these insights through very valuable. And for all you beverage entrepreneurs out there, I highly recommend a call with BevSource. They are the experts on all things beverage formulation, sourcing, packaging. They go so deep on production with in house technical experts like Bob who are available for on site qa, QC and operational support. And they even have their own pilot facility. You can make a few hundred samples even to test out your product and even get sales samples. I did that for my brand so that I could start selling into retail six months before I planned our first full production run. It was a huge help. Okay, I hope you love this episode.

02:09
Daniel Scharff
Please feel free to reach out to the team at Bev Source if you want a consultation. Again, I really recommend it. Their website is bevsource.com, it's in the show notes. All right, here we go. All right, Bob, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you here because your reputation precedes you, but I Also know a lot about you because I got to work with you at a previous brand and in my mind you were always this mystical oracle that people spoke about of like there is one guy who actually knows more about beverage production than anyone on this earth and he is the person that you send in when you have a real problem.

02:48
Daniel Scharff
So I'm very excited that we get to pick apart a lot of the knowledge that you have here today so everybody can hear it because that is my wish for everyone, is for them to benefit from the experience here. So do you mind just hitting us first with a quick Bob's background?

03:01
Bob Williams
Daniel, thanks for having me. That's quite an intro. So thank you. Yeah, I have 25 plus years in the beverage industry. Most of that in and around co packing. Spent a lot of time around quality and manufacturing operations, building systems, implementing quality procedures, working on lean Six Sigma projects, et cetera. Built out a total of I think it's now like 8 high speed cam lines and again seen quite a bit when it comes to quality manufacturing. Some of the mistakes that can be made and what you can do to prevent them, you know, going forward. So again, happy to be here.

03:41
Daniel Scharff
All right. And so Bob, I imagine that a lot of people, if they're like me, they come across you because they have a problem, not right because for me, like ideally I wish I had done this, I would have recognized we're going into production, we're going to have this product that we obviously want to be extremely high quality. Let me just go and get someone really experienced to go to the production. We have this co man, they should know how to do everything but like let me just go and get somebody really good for some insurance on that. We did not do that. Instead I called Bob because we had a big problem. Is that how it usually goes?

04:13
Bob Williams
Yeah, typically that's how it goes.

04:15
Daniel Scharff
So what do you think are some of those differences? Let's say you have a coman that is not one of these that has been around for decades and absolutely knows what they're doing. Like interesting for me sometimes you'll meet a co man and they actually feel a lot like a startup brand. They're like yeah, were doing this other thing, we realized there was this opportunity so we created this co man operation or maybe we had a brand and we saw the extra capacity so we started doing that and realized we liked it more than the brand. What are the kind of things that they often aren't as good at about manufacturing as those top best in class comands that have Been around for a long time.

04:46
Bob Williams
Yeah, that's a great question. Especially now, not to pick on the breweries, but there's a lot of breweries out there with lagging or slow beer sales that they decide they want to get into the CO packing space to offset some of their costs, which is great. You know, like I said, there's some really good CO packers out there. But then the problem I see with a lot of them emerging into that new space. For example, breweries answer to the Department of Agriculture and the ttb, the moment they move outside a beer and they're making a sparkling water or an energy drink. Now you got to report to the ttb, right? Or not the ttb, the fda. Okay. And that's a whole nother set of regulations that they're not accustomed to, Right?

05:29
Bob Williams
And you know, you go into a typical microbrewery and you see people walking around in shorts, they might have their dog following them through the manufacturing facility. You typically can't do those things, right. Those aren't good GMP practices and it's hard for them to get their head around. In addition to that, some of them lack the appropriate equipment. So, for example, most of them don't have high shear mixing. Most of them don't have agitation in the tank. You know, most of them don't have reverse osmosis water system. So those are capital investments they're going to have to make in order to run products, you know, other than beer.

06:06
Daniel Scharff
So, Bob, let me ask you, what are those top problems that brands are running into when they reach out to the Oracle?

06:14
Bob Williams
Bob, I'd say the biggest one that I see most often are leakers. It's funny because typically I get a call and they said, hey, we have a leaking issue. And off the top of their head, they believe it's a can problem. They feel that the can integrity is compromised because when they find these cans, it's like two months later it's sitting in a warehouse. They go over, they find a pallet, and the whole pallet's wet and leaking and they start tearing it apart, pulling out cans. And naturally it's leaking from the sidewall, right? So naturally they think it's a can issue. But a lot of times, one of the first things I'll do is ask for all the documentation.

06:55
Bob Williams
I go right to the seam, check reports, and I would say 90% of the time, based on my experience, all the seams are not in spec. So when you find that can in the warehouse, most likely it's due to secondary Corrosion, and you're not looking at the primary cause or the primary leakers. And then when you go back and look at the seam checks, you can find out they're not in spec.

07:20
Daniel Scharff
Let's just dive into that a little bit. I want to make sure we're on the same page for this. So, like, you're saying you discover there's a leakers. It's in the warehouse somewhere. If you didn't know all the stuff that Bob knows, you might even first wonder, is this an issue at the warehouse? Like, did they let a bunch of stuff get on it? Probably that's not what actually happened, though. And you're saying, so really, what it often is going to be 90% of the time is the actual thing seam, which is when you're putting the end onto the can and sealing that, which happens right after you fill that can. Because basically, like, when you have an aluminum can, you buy the actual can, which does not have the end on it, and then it's filled.

07:57
Daniel Scharff
And then a machine comes down and seams basically the can end, which you can buy separately, onto the top of the can. And so that is the. Usually the most common source when there are leaks is that it's happening because of an issue with that seaming. Meaning it, like, wasn't configured correctly or it's not tight enough or something like that?

08:16
Bob Williams
Yeah, correct. You know, when you seam a can, the end manufacturer will give you a series of specification testing to be done to ensure that you're getting a good hermetic seal on it. So you're testing various points of that seam, whether it's the thickness, whether it's the length, the COVID hook, the body hook, the countersink, et cetera, and they give you upper and lower spec limit to follow. And a lot of times when I go back and I look at those reports, a lot of time they're not in spec. And I can tell you, based on my own experience, I've seen some specifications outlayed by two tents and leaks. So what amazes me is that when I find these reports and I see that they're out of spec, there's no corrective. There's no immediate corrective action on it.

09:00
Bob Williams
I mean, it's okay if you find something out of spec, but normally you put the product on hold, you go back to your last good check, and then you ensure that, you know, whatever the root cause is fixed, and then you can move forward. But I've had conversations with CO packers, unfortunately, where they've said, hey, I've had somebody from my can supplier come in, the technician, and he told me that this is fine. I've had that too in the past. And I'll be the first to tell you, should that product leak, all of a sudden, that technician is going to have amnesia, all right? They're not going to remember telling you that. And then your supplier is going to say, hey, you know, it's not in specification. You didn't do anything about it. It's going to leak.

09:40
Bob Williams
So unless you get it in writing from that technician, you really don't have a leg to stand on.

09:46
Daniel Scharff
And this is really like a whodunit case often. Because even if Bob probably know, like, look, I know what the scene, it's very hard to actually prove that, right? Because like, to actually prove that it was the scene, you almost need to disprove everything else in a way where the co main would be liable. Right? Like, okay, so was the can itself in spec? Right. Was there an issue on that? Or the liner, the warehouse, or the temperature, like the actual production as well? Was that all in spec or was there a low fill? Was there just like, did they not fill it up too high enough and now. Or they fill it too high and that was a problem. Right, like all these things that you would also look at.

10:23
Bob Williams
Yeah, there's lots of things. And these are all those things, Daniel, that I take into account as well, you know. So you're constantly looking at things that can cause a potential leakers. Even though I point out the same, which again, most of the time is the root cause. You want to ensure that there's nothing else that's contributing to it. So, for example, we'll take a look at a formula, and if there's high levels of copper or high chlorides, those can be contributing factors to corrosion, high amounts of dissolved oxygen. I know the can manufacturers will only warranty it to. I believe it's 1.2 parts per million right now. So anything above, again, it's just going to exponentially help, you know, that corrode that product and form a leakers.

11:08
Bob Williams
So these are the things that we do look at to ensure that they aren't contributing factors. Right. So. And then a lot of times we land on the seam checks. I will tell you this too. I did have an interesting case where a very large corporation had called me up and they were running some private label stuff. It was their own brand, their own manufacturing facility, I think reached out, like on a Tuesday at 2:00pm, said, hey, can you be out here tomorrow morning? Right. So jumped On a plane, it was out there in the morning and we got to the root cause of it before lunch. But when I had asked for, and again this was a leakers issue, I asked them for their seam check report. They showed me and all the seams were in spec, by the way.

11:50
Bob Williams
So it kind of baffled me a little bit. Went back into the lab and I said, okay, walk me through your process on how you're doing these seam checks. And they were using kind of old school hand micrometers that weren't calibrated it and whatnot. And they were getting variations in the results. And so in this particular case it came down to the equipment.

12:11
Daniel Scharff
Right.

12:12
Bob Williams
And so I was able to show them, you know, by taking the micrometer and passing it around that hey, we all got different answers here. And then you're, what's the correct answer? So there was no repeatability, no reliability there. So turned them onto the use of some equipment where it won't differentiate between users and you can get consistent results each time and it can be calibrated daily, which you know, was huge for their quality program and gave them some accurate results that they can rely on.

12:41
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. The reason it's important, there are two things going on, right? Like one, you've got a problem with some inventory that's out there and I think you're trying to figure out how pervasive is it if we have leakers, how many more leakers are there likely to be? And also what are we going to do with that inventory and actually can we get compensated for it if it was actually somebody's fault? And you want to figure that out because typically there will be a couple things here. One, your co man is responsible for delivering you product that's in spat. Two, you have a can provider and the cans are guaranteed. Typically you'll have like a warranty for them up to a certain amount of time.

13:16
Daniel Scharff
But all of these things you would have to prove whose fault it is as well as like, oh well, what is it, an ingredient supplier's fault or so you're trying to figure that stuff out. But then also, I mean the main point is you want to fix it so it doesn't happen again in the future. Because these things just, they absolutely are a nightmare for your entire supply chain. Right. It impacts your like, hope, God forbid you have to do a recall. But even before that it's going to start impacting your relationship with the distributor and your retailers and you might then be out of stock because you can't send them quality inventory.

13:44
Bob Williams
Yeah, and you nailed it right on the head there. It's really trying to find the root cause of it and not place blame first. But let's truly find out what the problem is so we can fix it. And then we have a certain level of confidence that it's not going to happen again moving forward because again, that can snowball into greater problems, greater losses, problems with your retailers, your distributors, et cetera. So let's fix this as soon as possible and then we'll figure out who's going to pay for it and how we're going to pay for it too. So that's a whole nother conversation too, by the way, where it doesn't necessarily have to be money out of pocket. If it's co packers fault, sometimes they'll offer you, we won't charge a tolling fee on your next production or something. Right.

14:27
Bob Williams
So there are different ways to kind of work through it.

14:30
Daniel Scharff
Yeah, Creative solutions. I love it. And Bob, in your experience, how often is it one smoking gun like, yes, this was it the actual micrometers or whatever, we're out of spec versus it's not really clear one exact thing. There are 10 things though, that need to be fixed. And if we actually just work on a litany of things that do need to be improved, then we are going to see fewer problems areas.

14:52
Bob Williams
And in some cases, it's kind of like that perfect storm, right? A series of events leads up to the problem. You know, as I mentioned earlier too, when it comes to seam checks, you know, if you see they're out of spec, hey, fix it. Get them in specifications. So sometimes it's not following procedures, sometimes it's a training issue. But you know, a lot of times with taking the time to really go through all the documents, all the records, interviewing people, you know, it really starts to tell a story, right. And it kind of takes away some of that speculation. And that data ends up being the proof needed to show you that, hey, yeah, we got it right.

15:30
Daniel Scharff
Yep. So, Bob, do you have any other good stories for us about stuff that you've run into? Obviously we don't need to name any names here, but any other situations that Detective Bob came in to sleuth out?

15:42
Bob Williams
Yeah, I had one too, where company calls up, they had a micro issue. Okay. And you know, it was like a energy drink and had a process authority letter, needed tunnel pasteurization, 160 degrees, 10 minutes, right. They had this micro issue. So I'm like, okay, send me all your micro data. And again, I asked for all the Batching, the QA records, etc. So I'm going through it all and I get to thermal process report and it just is handwritten in says 16010. I'm like, what am I looking at here? Right? So for those of you who don't know if you have a tunnel pasteurizer, you typically have a data logger that they put in the can, they fill it with the product, they seam it, run it through the tunnel and you will get real time data.

16:27
Bob Williams
You know, whether it's every 10 seconds, 30 seconds, however you have it programmed and it will read the time and temperature. So you ensure that you hit that 160 degrees for 10 minutes. So I wasn't seeing it. So we have a conference call these guys up. This is before I even stepped forward, foot on site. And I'm like, where's your data logger information? They're like, oh, we don't have one. And I'm like, why don't you have one? And they're like, well, we don't have a tunnel pasteurizer. And I'm like, well, I'm like, well, hold on. You know, the process authority letter specifically states you need tunnel pasteurization for 160 degrees, 10 minutes, and you don't have a tunnel pasteurizer.

17:04
Bob Williams
And they said, no, but we figure we could just take it and we can heat it up in our hot liquor tank to 160 degrees and then we'll fill it. And that's exactly what they did. So again, for people who don't know, tunnel pasteurization will thermally process not just the liquid, but the entire package. Okay. And this specific CO packer was also a brewery. And breweries have a very high amount of yeast and mold in the air naturally. So basically they packaged it with all this stuff in the air before they steamed it. And again it grew out in the product.

17:37
Daniel Scharff
That is wild. And probably most people listening to this, if you're still listening to this, you probably do know what a tunnel pasteurizer is. But in case you don't, it is just something that is going to sit on the line. It's a kill step like a. And it basically just your can, after it gets filled and seamed is going to roll through something that just heats it way up. So it's going to be a temperature of 160 degrees and it's going to take 10 minutes to pass through there. And that is typically, if you're like an organic product, then you aren't using preservatives that could otherwise do that. And so that is the kill step is it's basically going through that tunnel pasteurizer to make it a safe product.

18:11
Daniel Scharff
And so if it doesn't do that and they don't treat the package then you can have these kind of issues. Especially if it's in that kind of a harsh environment.

18:17
Bob Williams
Yeah, absolutely. So my advice, if you're a co packer and you definitely want to make sure if somebody comes to you and they do not use preservatives that they have a process authority letter that you follow to a T, do not deviate from it. And then also for the brand owners, I've seen brand owners deviate from the letter as well. They tell the co packer that hey, I want higher CO2 in my product. But the co packer says I can't give it to you because based on the pressures that are going to build up, it's going to blow the tops off. So they say, okay, we'll just reduce the temperature and the co packer does it. And then they have a micro issue and they're scratching their heads why.

18:57
Daniel Scharff
So I've definitely been in that situation as a brand too where we're like, no, I know if you, if it's more carbonated it tastes better. So could you please carbonate it as much as possible. And they're like, a couple of them are going to blow. I'm like, well that's just let some of them like I want to push the edge on this one, please. Like until some of them are blowing, like that's better than it not tasting as good. So it definitely is a discussion there. But isn't that interesting that the brand would not have known or just been okay with the fact that they didn't have a. Like for me, like you go and do a site visit as a brand, you're like, can you show me this? Can you explain how the process works? Where's this thing?

19:31
Daniel Scharff
Oh, you don't have a tunnel pasteurizer. Well then I shouldn't even be here looking at this first of all. But I mean you must have some advice for brands about like I need to look at this stuff before I sign an agreement.

19:43
Bob Williams
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, you know, there's a lot of databases out there now and the help of AI that can help brand owners find a co packer and they'll check off all the boxes. But there's something to be said about having somebody with the experience or industry depth of knowledge to be able to go in there and identify Things for the customer. But I will tell you that if you are a customer and you're going to use a CO packing facility, I've seen brand owners sign agreements before they've even stepped foot into the CO packer, which I would advise against. If you're thinking of using a co packer, schedule a visit with co packer, have them walk you through the entire process from hey, this is where I'm going to receive my ingredients. That's where I'm going to receive the primary, secondary packaging.

20:34
Bob Williams
Have them walk through the batching process, have them walk through the lab, have them show you every piece of equipment, what it tests and how they're going to test your product. Walk through the production line, ask them again the process flow, what this does, how it works, its capabilities, and then even walk through the warehouse of where your product's going to be stored. Then I would also take time, sit down with the QA manager and have them walk through their food HACCP plan again. Any SQF or other GFSI certifications they have also traceability recall programs. I would ask them all these things, but the reason why it's important is because it's going to generate a lot more questions for you to ask your co packing partner there. Right? So I would definitely do that. I'll give you an example.

21:21
Bob Williams
You know, had conversations where, yes, we have a master sanitation program. I get on site and I see slime mold hanging from, you know, conveyors or fillers. I see mold growing underneath product holding tanks. That's not a facility I'm going to recommend to anybody. I was in a facility that had an RO system, walked into the ROom and it looked kind of dark and dingy. Looked like nobody's been in there for a while. And I asked the QA person that, I said, look, when is the last time you back flushed your carbon tower? I don't know. Okay, when's the last time you changed out your carbon or steamed the carbon? Maybe three years ago, walked over, looked at the RO system and I'm like, when's the last time you changed out your membrane? Probably three years ago.

22:06
Bob Williams
Hey, I noticed your UV lights not working. When did that go out? Oh, I didn't know it went out. When's the last time you cleaned your buffer tank? And so at the end of the day, they probably would have been better off just running straight off city water than running it through the system they had because it wasn't doing anything for them. And in fact, it probably harbored certain micros over time, again, that's not a facility that I'm going to recommend until they fix it and they show me that they've got good processes and practices in place.

22:37
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. And I think it just gets back to that point of, I don't know, I think you're a brand and you find there's a co man out there that wants to work with you. And it's very exciting because often it can be hard to find somebody who's okay with your minimums and is going to take a bet on your brand and has capacity and has the stuff you need and is in the geography more or less that you're looking for. So I think people just get excited and maybe like, great, you're gonna like, take me to the dance, let's go. Let me sign this thing. Not knowing that I need to go and check the reverse membrane osmosis. Like, you know, we don't know those things.

23:09
Daniel Scharff
And so I just, I really encourage brands at the early stage, even for you'd think beverage would actually be pretty straightforward. Like you're not gonna run into so many issues. Cause it's not, I think as complicated as certain food products that might require different kinds of equipment. But yet you still, like, you have a lot of these problems of people saying like, yeah, the co managers can't make it taste the right way. Like there really can be tons of problems. And I always think it just makes sense to get somebody in there at the beginning or helping you find the coman because they know a lot of the comans that can do good, consistent, high quality work.

23:43
Bob Williams
Yeah, exactly. You know, and you touched on a good point there too. Everybody wants a specific geographical region to produce their product. And I get it, you know, from the logistics standpoint they could pay less on freight, et cetera, but you know, they might find a better quality co packer two states over. They're going to pay more in freight. But I would pick that co packer any day. You know, that's going to be a true corner. It's going to save you more money in the long run by having less problems with your product.

24:10
Daniel Scharff
Yeah. Especially if they can scale with you in a good way and hopefully as you get your volume up, they can offer you volume price breaks because that stuff is very real. When you're talking about the march towards profitability, one of the biggest factors in there is going to be getting your volumes up and thus your tolling costs down. Those are really big savings as you grow. So. Yeah. Okay, so how does this actually work? By the way, like let's say it's going to be a fire drill. Usually if I have to call somebody like you, Bob, and it's like this is happening. What is it that I should really make sure that I know how to get access to give you or whoever all of the things they're going to need to actually look into to understand what's happening.

24:53
Daniel Scharff
Because again like you know what's most likely causing it, but we don't. And so we're like, oh, I'm going to go visit the warehouse and actually inspect the conditions. Like, I don't know, it's probably a big waste of time but what is the really the important stuff?

25:05
Bob Williams
Yeah, I think a lot of time. I mean you definitely want to inspect it for sure, but at the end of the day it really comes down to a lot of the quality documentation. So I literally asked for everything and anything. Again from batch records to QA reports, thermal processing records, CMER production on the floor reports. I've even gone so far as to ask for maintenance reports. Okay. And it's funny how it'll again start to tell a story. If you get pushback from any of your co packers stating that I'm not going to give you this documentation that it's proprietary, that's a huge red flag. They're not a partner. You want a partner. Okay, things happen. I mean that's just the reality of it.

25:47
Bob Williams
You know, there's going to be things that happen on the co packer side, there's going to be things that happen on the brand owner side and you guys got to truly work together to understand again what that root causes. So any document that's related to the production, manufacturing and production of your product, they should be willing to give you.

26:07
Daniel Scharff
Okay, so just getting back to, I really like how you were talking about if you're going and visiting a coman, like just really try to understand it and see everything. That's definitely what I did when I would go and visit a coman and I'm not even the technical person on a team, but I would just try to fully understand the process to the point where I could actually draw it for my team who wasn't there. Like, yeah, let me just explain to you how their line works because I was there and asked all the questions. So I now know enough to actually draw it for you and say, here's what happens here.

26:36
Daniel Scharff
And by the way, if you do work with them, it actually that knowledge is incredibly helpful when you're Talking to them about the contract and how to get efficiencies and oh like can I negotiate this? And does that like do these inputs actually help you or not? Like you'll know because you've been there and you know how they run their lines and when the shifts start and end and all that kind of stuff. But so it sounds like your real advice for somebody, especially if they're a non technical founder, let's say they really don't have the wherewithal to go and get an expert team to come with them, third party consultants or whatever.

27:07
Daniel Scharff
Really that is your recommendation is like go to the place and just see everything and ask everything and look how nice and well organized especially all of the storage and ingredient places are and like talk to them about their food safety and quality assurance testing and all that stuff. Like just basically asking as many questions as thoughtfully as possible and seeing if they have all the answers to all this stuff.

27:27
Bob Williams
Yeah, as I mentioned, once you get there, you know it's going to generate a lot more questions that you're going to have that it'll help you hopefully gain more confidence and that you're choosing the right co packer. So yeah, I mean being on site it's that saying like pictures worth a thousand words. Right. So when you get on site and you can actually see it for yourself now all of a sudden, hey, boom, I got all these questions. Also if you're ever on site and you get a little confused because some of those manufacturing lines can get pretty confusing. As far as understanding the flow process, what I would do with customers is I would take out my food safety HACCP plan and in your food safety HACCP plan you need to create a flowchart.

28:07
Bob Williams
And in that flowchart you have all these different touch points through the area, including your manufacturing line and all the equipment. So the flowchart can help you get a better visual on how that process flow works. Right. And then typically in that food safety plan, you know, you identify anything for biological, chemical, physical risk and you know, determine if there's any critical control points that are needed and the quality person can kind of walk you through that so you have a better understanding of their process.

28:40
Daniel Scharff
Let me ask you another question Bob, which is for me actually the highest anxiety moment is when you're doing your first run with them and you're there to actually check if the thing tastes the way that it's supposed to taste. And they might actually give you the product a couple different times. Like let's say they are Doing batching. Right. They're putting all the stuff into a tank and mixing it there. They might even, if your product is carbonated, they might even let you taste it before it's carbonated. They're like, cool. And you are there with your reference samples, which means from your formulator or whoever, you have the gold standard product. This is what it is supposed to taste like. We've agreed on that through the formulation process.

29:12
Daniel Scharff
This is how it's supposed to taste and exact carbonation and all the specs and you have the thing there to compare it to. And then let's say though, they give you the first product off the line that's run through and you're sitting there and this is the moment, you're like, does this match the other thing? And you know, we're not, we don't all have your experience, Bob. We don't all come, we're not all master testers and all that stuff. But for me, it really is a very high anxiety moment. Any tips for brands when they get to that point of just like, is this thing like the other thing that they should really be paying attention to at that point to make sure that they're feeling good about signing off on it?

29:49
Bob Williams
Yeah. You know, again, first runs don't go perfectly at all. So what I see happen a lot is typically around like ph and total acidity of the product and you're chasing it to get it in the spec. And you know, depending on if it's high on a spec or low, you're either going to add citric acid or you're going to want to add water. That's just kind of like a neat jerk reaction. But let's say you had an energy drink and you're doing those things and you finally get the ta and ph where you want it because that's where the spec is. Well, you could literally knock your caffeine out of spec or some of the other products where now all of a sudden it doesn't match your nutritional facts panel. So my advice to people is don't change it.

30:27
Bob Williams
You know, again, get those three runs under your belt and then see where it stands. And then from there decide, am I going to change the spec or am I going to add more citric acid or water? But also I'm going to tell you that a lot of times the product is not going to be completely perfect to the gold standard that was sent by your lab that you had formulated your product. Okay. And for a variety of different reasons, whether it's the water Source. Now you're manufacturing it on a commercial setting versus in a small lab. Tunnel pasteurization we talked about earlier Product tastes very different before it runs through a tunnel and after a tunnel. So if afterwards, you know it's going tone it down, it's going to be a little bit more subtle.

31:12
Bob Williams
So if you're trying to fix it on the front end after it's batched, you know, it might be fine by the time it goes through a thermal process and sees those changes from there.

31:21
Daniel Scharff
So it's so interesting Bob, it never occurred to me that one especially about the water like act, yeah get some water from the person who's going to be filling it, the water they're going to use. Because you know what the number one ingredient usually is the water. So maybe that's a good idea to use that actual like you know, you're getting the ingredient from the actual ingredient suppliers for the rest of the ingredients when you're testing stuff. Well, the water is an ingredient too. And I feel like the times that I've heard it go bad, especially when people picked a comb in and eventually they just had to switch. Sometimes they're like it's just the water. The water there is not working for us.

31:54
Bob Williams
Yeah, I would definitely get a sample of the water. In fact, you know, I would ask them for their full water report. A lot of co pack manufacturers will either do daily, weekly, monthly testing on their own, but then they will take samples and send it out for a full complete, you know, water analysis right down to heavy metals thms all that stuff.

32:15
Daniel Scharff
So last one here for you Bob, which is let's say hopefully it goes well with them. They never have all these huge problems where they have to call in the bobinator but let's say they grow. Like when do you feel like some co mains will try to grow with you and they see you growing and they want to keep servicing you and they're like yeah, we can put in additional equipment and that's cool. Good. Versus really you just need to start actually bringing on additional comands, diversifying to support and like maybe bigger comands with bigger lines, higher can time on those lines. What do you usually think is best for brands?

32:47
Bob Williams
So as you begin to scale, I would have those conversations early with your co packer because if you're happy with your co packer the way that you do business, they might be willing to invest in a larger production line or an additional production line. And by having those conversations early gives them the time to do that. I'VE seen some brand owners even willing to co invest, which is an opportunity where they will co invest in a line and then the co packer will give them a reduced rate in their number of cases until they reach X amount to pay them back for the investment. That kind of works well if you have the capital.

33:28
Bob Williams
And then there's some that they might not have the real estate to grow within their facility or that might not be part of their short or long term goals, which is fine. Normally they could recommend somebody once you get to a certain volume that they trust would be in good hands. In fact, I work with a few different small tier and large co packers now where I put them in touch with each other. Where a large co packer gets a call from somebody that hey, they're not going to meet their minimums, they'll recommend a smaller co packer that'll take good care of them and vice versa. Right. So normally through those channels you can ensure that you're going to find a good co packer or stay with the same co packer and help them grow their business along with your own.

34:15
Daniel Scharff
All right. And then obviously like as you're growing, I mean, I think, you know, shelf life was something that was pretty important for us just to keep understanding because you kind of get a letter from the process authority at the beginning telling you how long it's safe for. But quality is a different issue as well. Like how long is it going to taste good? What about the flavors that we have in here? Are they going to degrade over time? Any just last piece of advice for brands thinking about that stuff as they grow, like the stability and qa, all.

34:40
Bob Williams
Of that, I would recommend getting that done as soon as you've like completed your formula. I would do it definitely at the beginning. Don't wait. I've seen customers, you know, again, whether it's a sparkling water, energy drink, coffee, alcohol, whatever. Right. It's. I've seen too many brand owners sit there and compare their product to a competitor and say, well, the competitor has a year life shelf, so that's what I'm going to use. But all products are completely different for the reasons you mentioned. You know, if you got different ingredients, you might have an ingredient that degrades a lot sooner than what they do. You might have a coloring that all of a sudden gets depleted sooner. And it's important to know these things because you may not get a year shelf life.

35:23
Bob Williams
And retailers now, especially your major retailers, they're starting to demand some kind of proof that you've done these shelf life stability tests, et cetera. So they know that, hey, this product's good for one year and they don't have to worry, you know, nine months in that they're getting consumer complaints or bad tasting product. The last thing you want is a retailer to pull your stuff off the shelf early due to customer complaints and off taste because that could be detrimental to your brand and unfortunately affect your relationship with the retailer. So, so know for certain have that scientific data in the letter to support it that you can carry on with conversations to your distributors and your retailers.

36:07
Daniel Scharff
So, man, Bob, it occurs to me also, like, I hope that if a brand does have a problem and has to send in somebody like Bob to figure it out, that the coman will actually receive Bob in the way that I think can really help them too. Because if you get somebody like Bob with all of his experience showing up at a coman, that is a huge opportunity for them, especially if they're newer to learn. And when he's asking these questions like, yeah, we should have that, okay? Because like, I hope that they all will go into it. In the spirit of also figuring out how to get better, obviously things can always get combative. I would say when people are figuring out who's gonna have to pay for something, it is an opportunity for everyone.

36:42
Daniel Scharff
Because I hope even if stuff like this happens and you have to figure it out, that you can still find a way to preserve the spirit of the relationship with your co man, that you are partners and you are in this together and your goal is shared, which is to produce the best quality product consistently possible.

36:57
Bob Williams
Yeah, that's exactly right, Daniel. Because I go in there, you know, sometimes on behalf of the brand owner, I've actually gone into co packers behalf of the co packer themselves. But I really try to be an advocate for both so they have a true understanding of what they're looking at. And if there's an opportunity to improve on systems or identify additional gaps that they have, I'm willing to help them out to do that to, you know, again, improve, accelerate their quality programs. I typically go in and let them know that, you know, look, I've seen a lot in my experience, and to be perfectly honest, it's probably happened to myself at one point. So they're not alone. I don't want them to feel like this only happens to them. It probably happens to like more co packers or more brand owners than you think.

37:47
Bob Williams
So I don't want them to feel like anyone's getting jaded.

37:51
Daniel Scharff
All right, well, Bob, I feel like we have gotten at least a bit of the surface of all of your knowledge out here for brands, but I'm really excited that everyone's going to get to know a little bit about your profile. I mean, Bob has 20 years of experience doing this with Co Packing, Coleman Operations, very deep in this beverage world and has probably seen it all. So what a treat for all the beverage brands, especially to get to hear about some of the stuff that you've seen out there. And just a reminder to everybody, Bev Source is called Dev Source for a reason. They can help you with all things beverage, whether that is from actually formulating the product at the onset to sourcing the ingredients or figuring out packaging and up to especially the production of it using experts like Bob.

38:39
Daniel Scharff
They go very deep on all these areas. Then they can help you with all of the decisions and suppliers and really help you get something to market very quickly and hopefully avoid some of the very costly mistakes that I definitely have come up against that can really derail your business for a long time. And you know, I think in the race to get things to market, a lot of us overlook that stuff and we're very excited and you know, we just kind of trust the process. But I would say trust but verify and inspect and document and check all the specs. And you may also be nervous sometimes about really checking your coman on things and asking them for specification testing and like sending over tons of tests that you need them to run.

39:23
Daniel Scharff
But actually in my experience, they're very used to that and they will do their best to accommodate it because yeah, they also do want to get better and have all of these things in place. And that is what a best in class Conan can do. And they have all the testing to give to you and that's what makes it really clear for both parties. So thank you, Bob. Really excited to hopefully have you back on the podcast in the future. And hopefully the horror stories are now not so horrible because everyone has listened to this podcast and figured it all out.

39:52
Bob Williams
Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

39:54
Daniel Scharff
All right, thank you. Bye everyone. Well, my friends, we've now arrived together at the end of another episode of the Startup CPG podcast, the top globally ranked podcast in cpg. As you may know, we're not just a podcast, we're a community of brands and experts and you should join. You can sign up@startupcpg.com you'll then get an invite to our online Slack community. You're going to hear about amazing events near you, all of our special opportunities to get you in front of fire investors, brands and more. It's a free community. So what are you waiting for? I will see you there. Or on our next episode. Bye Bye.