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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Donna Martin:Hey. Welcome to the debrief with Matthew Stephen Brown. I'm Donna Martin, and we are so excited to be back at it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Been way too long.
Donna Martin:It has been way too long, but the summer was great. It's great. Yes. It's really hot still, so I don't know if I can say the summer's over.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I know. If you don't believe in hell, I hope you do now.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Exactly. Because we're really close to it. Yes. And we have some amazing questions.
Donna Martin:Thank you guys for sending in these questions, pastor Matt. I know you're ready to answer and give us so much insight. We are excited. So we're gonna jump right in. Yeah.
Donna Martin:Okay. So this is Jennifer from Riverside in Riverside, California, and she says, is reincarnation ever proved in the bible? And how can I, in love, walk someone through this? So here's the context. My mom became a Christian about two years ago, and she still tries to bring her old beliefs into the bible.
Donna Martin:Her newest discussion is about reincarnation, and she insists that in John one Mhmm. Starting in verses 19 where they ask John if he is Elijah reincarnated Mhmm. And he said no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question, and so thank you so much for just these very very difficult questions. And so we live in for, you know, people who grew up in church, you're like, my gosh, no, the Bible doesn't teach this. But if you're coming from a different background or you've had a different experience or you've believed different things, when you see something like this in the Bible, you might say, hey, it sure seems like they believe in reincarnation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So let's talk about what reincarnation is. Reincarnation is a Hindu, and I don't even like using that word, because Hinduism, C. S. Lewis said that the Indians in India didn't know they were Hindus until the British said, that's Hinduism.
Donna Martin:Yeah. So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hinduism is a broad term used to describe multiple, if not thousands of religions within India that are as diverse from each other. You know, they're more diverse than they are similar. And so, you know, we do this in a lot of ways in culture. Like when we say black people from Africa, I don't know if you knew this, but in Africa, black tribes are the most different genetically from each other Africa than any other race on earth. And so you gotta be really careful with when you just kinda lump people together.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we do this with religion, race Right. Politics, whatever. We kinda kinda the modern thing is to lump this together. So within Hinduism and some Buddhism, there's this understanding of reincarnation. So before we put it down or, you know, make fun of it as ridiculous or not biblical, understand that all religions are trying to solve the same questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the question that reincarnation is trying to answer is why, if God is good, is there evil? That's the question. And so why are people suffering so bad? Why do why do people, you know, why do some kids die and some people die young, and and why are some people poor? Why do some people battle diseases?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And why are other people healthy, you know, happy, and rich? And so reincarnation is this idea that says, well, in the past life you did something wrong, and so that's why you're struggling. Donna was sharing before the show that her hip hurts. So in your past life, you were an athlete and you ran the wrong way,
Donna Martin:and so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:now your hip is hurting, and you're paying for that. And that's kind of the way that they understand that. And so as Christians, right, we understand evil in the world through the fall. Genesis chapter three. God created a perfect world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There was one thing they couldn't do, eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They did that and invited sin into the world. So that's the biblical answer for that question, and I believe the true answer. But understand that people coming from other backgrounds have different understandings. And so I'm opposed to reincarnation for biblical reasons and for just reasonable reasons.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, how unfair would it be for you to try to figure out in this life what you did wrong from a life you can't remember? Right. Like, it's hard enough for me to be accountable for what I know I did, much less from some life. Like, that just seems ridiculous. And so biblically, why don't we believe in reincarnation?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Bible says it is appointed once for a person to die, listen to these words, then the judgment. There's no go around again. You get one life, you get one shot, and then you stand before God, and you're held accountable for what you did in this life. And that is repeated over and over and over again. We will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We will all be held accountable for what we did, listen to these words, in this body
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Not in multiple bodies, in this body for both the good and evil. And so what she says here about John and Elijah. Yeah. John and Elijah. And just understand that just because something's in the Bible so the way that I was taught in seminary is just because something is descriptive doesn't mean it's prescriptive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So just because somebody says something in the Bible, like Abraham says, this is not my wife, that's what he did. Now, I don't get to tell people Tammy's not my wife and marry her to someone else. He was sinning when he did that. So oftentimes you will see Jewish people, and we see this all throughout scripture. They worship foreign gods.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They worship foreign deities. You know, they practice adultery, same sex. I mean, you name it. I was sharing with the church I just finished Ezekiel. They were having homosexual sex in the temple with men in the Holies of Holies.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And God takes Ezekiel by the hair, and he shows them, and he says, they think I can't see. He says, I see this. So just because people in the Hebrew Bible or in the New Testament believe something or do something doesn't mean it's right. So we have to say, just because they're describing it, is this being prescribed? This is what God's telling me to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the assumption was through prophecy that Elijah would return. Well, it was close. Someone like Elijah would return, and that person was John the Baptist, who was kind of a type of Elijah. And all of the prophets in the Old Testament are types of Christ. David's a type of Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're not the Messiah, but they have some Messiah like qualities getting us ready for who Jesus is gonna be. And so what I would just say there is that's the misunderstanding of the people. And they have lots of misunderstandings and lots of confusion about the Messiah, which is why so many Jews rejected him. You know? It's just like when I travel out of the country, people have assumptions about what Americans think, believe, and feel, and there's not really room for me to have a different opinion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we need to understand that people in the Bible had opinions, had beliefs. Like for example, if we go to Palm Sunday, they believed that what Jesus was going to do was going to overthrow the Romans. And every Christian needs to understand that, especially as we go in this political system. Jesus begs them not to do this. Because here's the thing, if they reject the real Messiah who came to die for the sins of the world, listen to this, and they demand a political Messiah, That's what they'll get.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And then we have son, Bar Jonas, who comes up seventy years after Christ, and he says, I'm the Messiah, and I'm going to free you from Roman oppression. And a lot of people miss this in Revelation. You guys know how many years of tribulation are there? Seven. Seven years of tribulation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of people don't see this. Revelation just wasn't written for today. It was written for the people there. Do you want to know how many years it took Rome to conquer Jerusalem? Seven years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So a lot of what you read in Revelation is describing what happened to the Roman people and why they demanded a general, and they rejected God. Well, they got a general, and they died for it. And that's what Jesus was saying. So be very, very careful, because they thought that Jesus the Messiah was gonna overthrow Rome, and what Jesus came to do was overthrow sin. So a lot of people had a misunderstanding about what the Messiah would do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we have to be very, very careful when we read the Bible. Just because somebody says something or believes something doesn't mean that's what God wants. Because God records in his word people that believe bad things, people that do bad things, people that say bad things. It's all in there. The Bible's a very real book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And just like there Christians who believe stuff. I mean, you've met them. They say something like that.
Donna Martin:That was, yeah, Right. That was a
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The same things were there. And and again, for everybody listening, the Bible's a real book. Yeah. And so it doesn't gloss that over. It doesn't it's not a make believe book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's not a pretend book. And so it just puts that in there. When somebody says something or does something that's wrong, that's why we need Jesus
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:To set us straight. So great question.
Donna Martin:Don't know if thoughts on that. Great question. Yeah. No. I thought that was really good, and and I think that, you know, I remember my husband saying he went to when he was in Haiti, the people were getting saved, but they were bringing all of their
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Voodoo and witchcraft in with their salvation. Right? And so they would they were worshiping Jesus, but they still all had their Hindu god mean, not their Hindu, but their voodoo gods and everything, and they had to be taught, hey. We recognize that this was a part of your previous life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But Yeah. Well and we do this in America. We just don't know it. You know, some people swear, you know, Jesus is a a Republican, and others swear he was a Democrat. And if you ask Jesus, he would say, what?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Because neither of those things existed. And so we have to be very, very careful. And our assumptions are that Jesus and Paul thought like and felt like like I do, and the truth is they're divorced from our culture by two thousand years. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And things are very, very different now. And I don't mean that at all to diminish who Jesus is or what He knows. It's just to say that we live in a very different cultural than He did, and He just wouldn't understand, the human Jesus would just not understand what is it that you're talking about. So we have to be careful because we're just like those Haitians. I'm gonna marry my understanding of Jesus to my understanding of what it means to be a good Haitian, what it means to be a good American.
Donna Martin:American, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What it means like, for example, the Israel conflict. When I talk to a Christian in Gaza, they believe Israel's wrong. When I talk to a Christian in Israel, they believe Gaza's wrong. And so they're both shaped more by their political identity than they are by their conviction of truth. I mean, I've been lectured by a Gazan Christian wagging his finger.
Donna Martin:I was at ThinkConference in Yeah. In April, and he had an Israeli. He had a Jew on stage, and then they had videoed in Gazan. Yeah. A Christian Gazan.
Donna Martin:And, I mean, he was even he says, you know, sometimes when Christians in America say that the Jews are the chosen ones or that these are the you know, that it hurts our feelings almost because they they have such a different perspective of how they're being treated as Gazans, Christian Gazans. And then, obviously, the Jewish woman got on stage and shared, you know, the Gazans say, after they come for you, they're coming for the Christians, and so we don't understand why you're so in supportive of this government and these people. So it was a very interesting conversation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We we have the same thing in America when I see, like, lesbians for Palestine. I'm like
Donna Martin:Yeah. I no. I'm just like Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, they're gonna throw you off a roof. Yeah. They
Donna Martin:are. And and I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:and that's not just that's just I mean, that's
Donna Martin:what they do for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sharia Law murders gays. Yeah. Murders trans. And they do it, like, publicly. Like and so, you know, this this whole movement, you know, it's just it's just it's just really, really bizarre.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? It's like vegetarians for In N Out Burger. I'm just like, what what what I'm confused here. And it's because in America a lot of people don't know, and a lot of Gazans don't know. And that's not to say that Israel hasn't made mistakes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Israel's a fault. You know, Israel's just like our leaders. They do bad things. You know, they commit atrocities. They're a police force.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, like here, like, we have police that make mistakes. We still need cops. We need good cops.
Donna Martin:We need
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:lots of cops. And we had the defund police movement. I'm like, what are you saying? And and look what's happened to our black communities. They've been just I remember too shock too too shock.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Too paq Shakur.
Donna Martin:Not a person. The other one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I remember what he said, you know, and you're you're old enough to remember the nineties. The nineties was extraordinarily violent time. Yes. And and he said famously, he said, the drug dealer doesn't care that I'm black. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He doesn't care at all about rob me.
Donna Martin:Or my mom. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He will rob me and rape my mom. That's right. And so, you know, we we we we've forgotten that because we throw the baby, the old saying, do you know where that comes from? You guys can't believe this. We're having a grandchild.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Super excited. I know. But in the West, you wash the baby last.
Donna Martin:Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so the water was filthy. So the saying was, I know, you have a baby. He's looking
Donna Martin:at me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Don't throw so think about that. The baby was washed in the dirtiest water, so when you throw the water out, don't throw the baby out with That's the dirty nasty. Because a hundred years ago, they didn't value babies because they didn't live very long. So it's just completely different.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, that was great, and we answered a lot of other questions in the middle of that. We're gonna keep going.
Donna Martin:These are good. Okay. Angelina from Riverside as well says, if we are forgiven and God will remember our sins no more, why are we still required to stand on the day of judgment and account for every sin we've ever committed? Is that somewhat of a contradiction?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. If I ever get it around to it, I I wanna write a book on this very question, because I think, and I don't mean this word the bad way at all, but this is the most retarded understanding that Christians have of judgment. They've not read the Bible, they don't look at it, and I'm using the word retard. So if my arm is broken, it's retarded. It does not work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't mean that in any way against someone with Down's or Down's syndrome. I don't mean it that way. I mean in the literal sense. Retardation of something is something that doesn't operate.
Donna Martin:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Christians have a retarded theology. And and and what it is, it's very subtle. It's the conflation and confusion of two words, condemnation and judgment. Mhmm. So the famous verse, Romans eight one, there is now therefore it does not say judgment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. What is the free gift of God? Eternal life. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You will live forever. So the penalty of sins is eternal death. Yeah. You you gotta die. Jesus Christ wipes that away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You will not be condemned for your sins. However, you gotta you gotta be accountable for God. Mhmm. For what did you do in this life? And this is why Catholics have purgatory.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:C. S. Lewis believed in purgatory. And I'm not saying they believe in purgatory. I'm just saying there's gonna be a lot of surprised Christians when they stand before God, and they're judged for what they've done.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Here's the exception. First John one nine. If we confess our sins Yeah.
Donna Martin:He's faithful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. So if, as a Christian, I say, Lord, I looked at pornography. Lord, I lied. Lord, I committed adultery. I'm sorry for this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Please forgive me. On judgment day, that is forgiven. But if I have unconfessed sins, behaviors, attitudes, I'm going to be held accountable for that. And this really alleviates, you know, like, what do you do with a terrible person who, on their deathbed, they've been an awful person, they've wounded and hurt people their whole life, and so then on their deathbed, they're just going to heaven, and they're with the rest of us. You've not read the gospel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You've not read it. The good news is sinners without Jesus experience eternal death. What does that mean? You're dead forever. You're never coming back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:People who confess Christ experience eternal life. Just read it in John three sixteen. It's right there. The gift of God is eternal life. It's living forever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And a lot of Christians don't realize this in the book of Revelation. There's a tree for the healing of the nations, and there's water. Here's what we we are not immortal. We still need Jesus. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have to come to Jerusalem for the water that gives us eternal life. Like, what's that old well that everyone used to the Spanish conquerors were looking for? The of The fountain of That comes from Revelation twenty one and twenty two. That's where the idea comes from. And so they're looking, what they were looking for actually was the Garden of Eden.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They thought that somehow that water was there, and so they went all over the world looking for it. It's in the new heaven, on the new earth, and the water's crystal clear, and we drink from that. And so even in heaven, even on the new earth, we all will still know every day we need the Lord. Yeah. Like, we will need him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We cannot live without him. Eternal life is in him. So John fourteen:six last week at Sandals, I'm the truth, I'm the way, listen to these words, and I am the life. So a lot of people are like, well, I don't understand why Muslims, or I don't understand why atheists, or Hindus, or Buddhists, they're good people. I don't understand why they can't be in heaven forever, because you can't live without Jesus, because he, not Muhammad, not Buddha, not your science teacher, not what you believe, they're not eternal life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Only Jesus is. Amen. And so so we we we need that desperately. So I think it's it's a subtle thing, but you gotta remember, words matter. Every word in the Bible is inspired by God, and so condemnation is different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So how might I say that? So let's say I commit crimes and I stand before a judge. I can be judged for my crimes, but if I'm condemned, I would say that's the death penalty. So there's no death penalty for Christians. But we do, we are going to be held accountable for what we did, and it's very, very clear in this body, both good and evil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's in multiple places, and a lot of people say, but what about grace? What about grace? Again, grace is no condemnation. And when you read Paul, like Romans, we will all give an account to God. We will all stand before the beam of seat of Christ.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's Corinthians. You see it in every way the apostle Paul assumes. He says, I myself run-in such a way that I may not be disqualified, that after preaching, I myself would blow it. And so
Donna Martin:I think the good word there is accountable. Yes. So so not condemned because Jesus took care of that for us. So we're not forever dead. Yes.
Donna Martin:But we are accountable. Yes. And we don't necessarily know what that accountability looks like. We know the good stuff, you know, like crowns for this and crowns for that. And but how are we accountable?
Donna Martin:Regardless of how it happens, we will stand and be accountable for what we did in this body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And even in my, you know, my own tradition, I I I love the CSB. Originally, it was the the Broadman Holman Standard Bible, now it's just the Christian Standard Bible. You know, when they translated, I believe it's two Corinthians five ten, can you guys Google that for me? I wanna make sure that I got I think it's two Corinthians five ten.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They mistranslated the word, we will be held accountable for the bad we've done in our life. And they translated it for the things that are worth and worthless. And I said, that's not what the word says. Wow. The word says for the good and Because the bad that we've even Christian scholars and theologians, you know, we've propped up grace so much, and it's like, yeah, but not only does God give us grace, God is good, and for things to be good, he has And to deal with what's it's just, it's really, really important.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when you read like Luke 19, some of the worst judgments are for those who were operating in the name of Jesus. I mean, ripping bodies apart.
Donna Martin:I mean,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it's like, you're like, woah. And so here's a scary verse. Judgment will begin with the house of God.
Donna Martin:Yeah. Amen. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I go first. James says, not many of you should be teachers, for you will receive a stricter
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Judgment. Was I right? Second Corinthians five ten? Yeah. So look that verse up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And again, so much of Western culture is either or. So we're either saved from everything or we're not. And so Eastern culture is bothand. And so we have eternal life. And again, I'm not saying that you are saved by works.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You cannot save yourself. Only Jesus Christ can save yourself. But you still are gonna stand before your maker and be held accountable for how you live. And this is why so many Christians I meet people all the time, oh, I'm saved. I'm good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm like, I don't know if you're good. I don't know I
Donna Martin:don't know if
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you're ready.
Donna Martin:Yeah. So Well and that's what you preached this weekend. Right? About how what are we wearing on our way home? Can we take that into heaven?
Donna Martin:Will that live? Will that burn up?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's another verse,
Donna Martin:and I forgot So that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:that in that verse, you know, it says everything will be weighed. Everything. Both the gold and the silver and the stray and the wood, and we will, and this is where purgatory comes from. He says we will all get through it, but as through fire. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would say for Christians, there's a fire, and this is where the idea of purgatory comes from. There's a fire that prepares us for heaven. Yeah. And then for non believers, there's a fire, the lake of fire that destroys us. And that's a whole another debate, because some Christians believe that hell is eternal and forever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's eternal torment, and then others believe that it's annihilation. And what I would say is, I don't know. Jesus said you don't wanna go there. Don't go there. You don't wanna be there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hell was not created for you. It was created for Satan and his angels. C. S. Lewis says, gates of hell are locked from the inside out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And just know, we're trying to understand things that are complex, that are not easy to understand. And like I said last week, you know, Jesus is like, you guys know where I'm going? And Thomas is like I
Donna Martin:have no idea. Lord, I'm
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:a little confused. And and I wish more Christians were okay with that. I'm always a little weary of pastors who have all the answers. Yeah. If that were true, there wouldn't be different denominations.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There wouldn't be disagreements. It's not as easy as we try to make it out to be. Now, I don't wanna go the other way where, like, who knows? No. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. There's some things that we can know. You know, Jesus and Jesus alone is the one who saves. So Awesome. Great question.
Donna Martin:Thank you. Yes. Great. Great question. Thank you, Angelina.
Donna Martin:Okay. Next one. Paige from La Mirada, California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Donna Martin:Until recently, I never felt like I would ever get baptized or ever ever be eligible to be. From what I've read on the Sandals website about it, it looks to be the first step in our devotion to our faith. I feel compelled to do it, but at the same time, feel like I'm not yet worthy of it. I also read that you are to share it with the world that you're gonna do it, but I tend to be shy. All this being said, how do you know when it's the right time?
Donna Martin:Is it okay if I do it and not invite a ton of family and
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:friends? Yeah. Yeah. So, Paige, I think it's important that we understand personality is a real thing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I shared in church this week when my daughter was like, she gave us a gift, and Tammy opened it, and it was a little onesie. And I stood up in the restaurant.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was at your parents' restaurant. So I was at Tyler's parents' mom and I don't know if you call them.
Donna Martin:Stepdad.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Stepdad. Mom and I was at their restaurant, I stood up, and I said, I need everybody's attention.
Donna Martin:Aw, I love that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I said, and I'm gonna be a grandpa, and the whole place went nuts. And that could've gone really weird, but the people were and I was just so excited, I wanted to tell everyone, and then my daughter told me, you can't tell anyone yet.
Donna Martin:I was like,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you know All
Donna Martin:those people. Yeah. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's my personality. Mhmm. And the Lord gave me my personality. And so, you know, if I was gonna get baptized, I want everyone I know there. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So do you have to? I don't like I don't like have tos. I think those are those are dangerous. I think that's where fundamentalism comes from, all the have tos. What I think you need to do is you need to get baptized.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How you do that, I think, is between you and the Lord. At some point, Paige, given your personality, you need to be public about your faith. That may not look like me. Donna's another one. She's, you know, out and proud.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? Donna's you know, I mean, you're very bold. Yeah. You're very like, you don't have a problem telling people what you think or how you feel and No.
Donna Martin:Right? That's come with time. Yeah. Okay. I tend to be a little bit more of an introvert.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I wouldn't have guessed
Donna Martin:that. Really?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Well, with me, you tell me what you think.
Donna Martin:I do. Yeah. But I'm comfortable with you. But I tend to like my space. But I am pretty bold about
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:What I believe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No. And so, Paige, I would say, give yourself time to be more like Donna, more like me, okay? Because I think one of the reasons that Christians feel so defeated is you see a Donna who preaches publicly, who's on the show, you see me who preaches publicly, I'm on the show, you say, can never be that. Well, God hasn't called you to be me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. He's called you to be you. And we all need to look at what does faithfulness and obedience look like for me. And so because in that, like Donna has a gifting. Donna, you can talk.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're a good thinker. You know, you're a leader. Like, the Lord's given you the gift of leadership, and so maybe Paige doesn't have that gift. Sure. Paige, I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know what your gifts are. So what I would say is God's gonna call you to whatever level of obedience that he calls you to. So let's start with baptism. When is the right time? It was was it was a while ago when you got convicted.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's so that's where you start off with the Lord. Lord, I'm sorry that I'm letting my personality get in the way of my obedience. Yeah. And so and I'll just tell you. Here's one of the things that I work on, and I work on it all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't laugh. I work on being quiet. It's hard for me, you know, because I got a big mouth, and my sin is I talk too much. And so I'm constantly trying to make space for others Sure. And the opinions and feelings of others because I can be overwhelming.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And some people say, well, that's just how I am, and it's like, well, I show me that verse in the Bible.
Donna Martin:Yeah. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, the verse in the Bible says we need to grow. We need to consider others better than ourselves. And so maybe, Paige, invite one friend, the person that you're the most comfortable with, the family member, and just say, this is really hard for me, but Jesus is really important. Would you come with me and celebrate me as I give my life publicly to the Lord? So here's why I would say at least one person needs to be there, is it's a public confession.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Baptism does not save you, but it's an affirmation. It's like when you married Devon, I wanna call him Devo every time.
Donna Martin:It's okay, you can. Sorry, Devo.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When you married Devon, you didn't do it privately. Right. And it's why, you know, I mean, everyone's like, we wanna do a private ceremony. I'm like, then why are you getting married? Marriage is a public statement.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We are together, and everybody else is off limits. And so baptism is a public ceremony of your marriage to Jesus, Paige. And by the way, when you read through scripture, Jesus talks about the church as his bride. He's the groom. And what we're awaiting is our wedding day when we're together forever, and God is with us, and we are with him, and it is going it's gonna be a party.
Donna Martin:It is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I can't wait. So baptism is just simply that public thing. And here's what I would say, Paige. Baptism is the first step. You know, you've got to get in community group.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You've got to serve. All of those things are scary. Jesus does not save us from scary things. Sometimes he calls us into them. And you know, so I'm gonna tell you this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But when I preached at chapel and you came to support me, I was scared out of my mind. Really? I got all in my head. I'm 50 years old.
Donna Martin:Oh, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And these kids don't care what I think. And and and I I don't think what I I don't think I was great. Donna was very encouraging to me, but I was scared to death, Paige, of high schoolers because
Donna Martin:Well, I I must say that Christian schools are the hardest places to preach.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:They just are. Yeah. I mean, I I don't know. I've preached many a places, and Christian high schoolers or middle schoolers, it's like, what is happening? Yeah.
Donna Martin:I don't know. But you did great.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I did it, thank you. And so Paige, here's what I want you to know, I did it. And so last week I preached, I had not preached in six weeks, and I wasn't okay. I was very nervous, I was very scared, I just was very, you know, because what I do page is hard. It's hard to stand in front of people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, when I'm preaching live, people walk out. Who's that? Oh, I see people shake their heads. I see people looking at their phones.
Donna Martin:Oh, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I have to get over that, Paige, because some people are listening, and that's who I'm trying to reach. And so, Paige, I just would encourage you, your whole life Jesus is gonna do this. And so if you're listening, Paige, what I'm doing is I'm motioning with my hand. So too many Christians think come and follow me means once. Come and follow me
Donna Martin:means And your whole
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:so, Paige, I'm gonna be praying for you. And thank you so much. I'm sure this question was scary, and and I appreciate you, and I will be praying
Donna Martin:for answer one more part of this that she said that I thought was really really important? She says, I don't feel I'm worthy of it
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:yet. Oh.
Donna Martin:So can you kinda speak to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:for that. And, Paige, that's why we get baptized. None of us is worried. So our previous question was about John the Baptist, and so Jesus comes.
Donna Martin:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? And John the Baptist, a wild man, no underwear, you know, animal skin, eating bugs. Like, you just gotta know. Like, this guy's I talked about Russell Brand Yeah. In my sermon this week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This guy's like Russell Brand. Yeah. Russell Russell, if you ever listen to this, I love you. You're a weird dude. Creative
Donna Martin:Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Talented Funny. Funny. Weird. Yeah. But Jesus comes to John, and John says,
Donna Martin:you should baptize me. Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So even the guy who started the whole baptism movement, when he met Jesus, he felt unworthy. And so what I would say is if you feel worthy, probably shouldn't get baptized. So I think the right attitude is, man, I shouldn't do this. I'm not worthy of this. And I think that screams to me the Lord's working in your life, and he's speaking to you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's why we get baptized. It's an act of humility. Listen to this. I need to be washed. So last week I'm kinda in, you know, I talked about behold, I go to prepare a place for you, but it sets up with 13, the washing of feet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Peter says, you're not washing my feet.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the Lord Jesus says, unless I wash you Mhmm. You have no part of my kingdom. And Peter goes, then wash it all, baby. Yeah. Like, he's like, wash it all because that's what we need.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, Paige, I love this question.
Donna Martin:Thank you for your patience. Awesome. Okay. Another one. We have Cece from Ontario, California, and she said, if heaven is outside of time, do we all arrive there at the same time?
Donna Martin:Would Paul the apostle arrive at the same time as a Christian that died today?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is another if you're a Christian, just put on your seat belt, because you probably got this wrong. You know, I don't think we go to heaven. Heaven is for the Lord and for Jesus. We go to a place that Jesus is preparing for us.
Donna Martin:So
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:when Jesus says to the thief on the cross, he doesn't say, Today you will be with me in heaven. And that's because I think the Lord had some business to do in hell for us, according to two Peter. And that's in the Apostles' Creed, right? He descended unto hell to preach the gospel. And there are some Christians that question that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's If you're questioning the Apostles' Creed, get a little nervous. So because it's been such a part of our faith for And so many if you don't know what the Apostles' Creed is, Google it. But Jesus doesn't say today you'll be with me in heaven. He says today you'll be with me in paradise, and the actual Greek word is garden. And so I think that even in the book of Revelation, there's this scene where there's all these souls, and they're saying, How long?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How long? And the Lord says, Just a little longer, and he gives them robes. And why is that? They're disembodied spirits. So like we always say this, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, oh, so and so's got a new body, and it never hurts. Not yet. Not yet. Because as Christians, we've forgotten the resurrection. The resurrection is where we we get the new bodies to live on earth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so right now, you know, and again, all of this is hard. So I I love N. T. Wright. He says the Bible is clear signs pointing into the fog.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'm I'm giving you Bible verses, but they're pointing into the fog. And so I don't I don't know yet exactly what that will be like, but we will be with Jesus, and he will be with us, watching over us, caring for us, making sure that we're loved and known. And the apostle Paul wasn't worried about this place because he said, look, if I'm absent from the body, I'll be in the presence of the Lord. He doesn't say I'm gonna go to be in heaven to play golf and float on clouds and pursue all my hobbies, because again, Christianity is not a recipe, it's a relationship. We want to be with Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And one day heaven and earth are going to get married. And so somebody asked me this week after church, they said, well, why would there need to be a new heaven? Because even heaven's fallen. What happened? Satan and the angels rebelled.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everything will be made new. When we read Ephesians chapter six, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, right, in the unseen world. There is more to this war than we can see.
Donna Martin:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Everything must be remade. So as to her question, I think she said
Donna Martin:She said, if we do we all arrive at the same time? If heaven is outside of time? Would Paul the apostle arrive at the same time as a Christian that died today? I think your perspective is that in one moment, a new heaven and a new earth will come, And, yes, we will all be there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:Paul and us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But that hasn't happened yet.
Donna Martin:But that hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, if heaven is outside of time, do we all arrive there at the same time?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, for that yeah. Yeah. So for that is, you know, I I don't know. That's just above my pay grade.
Donna Martin:So know. We I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so and so here's here's why I think that. And and some theologians would disagree with me on this. I think God exists outside of time Yeah. And created time so that we could exist. So let me put it in, like, for a fifth grader, like a video game.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can create a video game, and I can interact with that video game. Jesus, right, becomes the character in the game, but I exist outside of the game, even though things are happening. That's my understanding of how God created the heavens Now and the some people don't believe that. Some people believe that God is both in it, and then other religions believe that God and the creation are one, which is not what the Bible teaches. God is separate from his creation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He has made it. It glorifies him, but it is not him. So will we all get there at once? I mean, I just don't know. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't imagine that we'll be super aware of time, because I think that would be overwhelming to watch our relatives make bad choices, and you know, like, I'm like, oh my gosh, give me a break from, you know, all of that. But I don't know. I don't know what we do. In Revelation, the prayers of the saints, and the word there is heaven, the prayers of the saints, right, like are these bowls that are before the throne of God, and they're incense. And so, you know, there's this beautiful thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would say is I think, here's what we know. Whether we all get there at the same time or not, I don't know. When you die, Donna, the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. You immediately are in the presence of the Lord. Now, there are Christians that believe in soul sleep, and so what they believe is that you're like in a state of rest and sleep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't believe that. Jesus teaches specifically in Luke 18 about the rich man and Lazarus, and I can't imagine Jesus using an illustration where the man is aware. He's conscious of both torment, and in that situation, he's aware of the people that are in comfort Mhmm. And Like he's aware of both. And so I don't know why the Apostle Paul wanted to hurry up and go take a nap for two thousand years.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think that we have some level of consciousness and awareness, but people, wherever Jesus are, they're praying for one thing, and that is the return of Jesus, the marriage of heaven and earth, the judgment of sinners, Satan being thrown finally into the fiery pit, and everything being bliss and beautiful and wonderful. And so that's something that, you know, we still look forward to, and you know, and again, it's why I think the Catholic church got so weary wrong, because they thought they were bringing heaven on earth, and I'm like, woah, and then they started killing people, you know, so Right. You We just get it wrong. So I don't know what our awareness is. I believe that when I die and I go to the place of Jesus, I believe like, for example, I'll just tell you a personal story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When my grandfather died, my grandpa Estes, I was doing dishes eight hours away, and I knew he died. I knew he died, and I felt something tell me, and I thought it was him, and it was like on his way out, he touched me and just praying for you. And my mom called. Yeah. And she said, your grandpa died.
Donna Martin:Yeah. My mom felt the same thing
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. When her dad I don't know what that is, but what I felt like on his way to be with Jesus, he needed to comfort a grandson that he knew was gonna weep who was a pastor, and so I had that experience. And I've not had that experience with every relative. Right. So I don't know what to make of that, but I do think that there's a connection and a concern for us, because we're family.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They love their family, and they're praying for their family. And I know my grandfather's in heaven, and I believe praying for I have cousins that are not walking with the Lord, and I'm sure that breaks his heart. So I don't know how our awareness of time works. I just don't. I do believe that instantly when we die, we go to be with heaven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We or excuse me, we go to be in the place you know, that Jesus is preparing for us. And it's a waiting place. It's an intermediary state, but it's a wonderful state. Jesus tells the thief on the cross. It's pretty good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Donna Martin:It's paradise. You wanna be there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So you wanna be there. And so I hope that answers your question. And again, we don't have all the answers. We have to, as Christians, embrace some level of mystery in our faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Otherwise, it's not faith.
Donna Martin:Right. And so that kind of flows into this next one, which I've heard you share share before, but what is your interpretation of the rapture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, that's on your end.
Donna Martin:It's at the bottom of that other one. Follow-up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, wow. Okay. I did not see that one coming. Do we? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so so, you know, I here's what I believe.
Donna Martin:Reader's Digest version.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So everyone so so the word is to be caught up. So a lot of Christians don't understand this, but when Philip in the book of Acts is caught up by the Holy Spirit, he's raptured. So rapture is the Latin translation of harmatio, and if I'm pronouncing that wrong, I don't have my Greek lexicon in front of me, it just means to be caught up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so part of the misunderstanding is the Schofield Bible that came out in about 1840, which was not a part of Christian theology, but it was this pre tribulational raption theology. It became very popular, and they raised a lot of money, and they distributed those Bibles in The United States. And a lot of Christians, they got a free Bible, and they all became pre trib or premillennial rapture Christians. I got a lot of friends that believe that. They're all into that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would say again is I don't see that in the scripture. Like I mentioned before, the book of Revelation, the seven years of tribulation, there are seven years. You know, is it Titus who conquers Israel? I can't remember which Roman emperor. But when you go to Rome, there's actually you walk under the giant trophy of the conqueror of Israel, and you see like the menorah being taken captive, and you see the It's temple being torn really heartbreaking.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so as Christians, like, we mourn that, but in Rome they were like, yeah. We destroyed. We killed the Jews. But that was seven years. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that was tribulation. And a lot of the things that you're reading about were happening to
Donna Martin:At the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Christians. So and had happened if John we don't know exactly when Revelation was written. So what I believe is Jesus is physically returning. There will be a rapture. But what do I mean by that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Those who are alive will be caught up with Him. Here's where I disagree with rapture theology. They believe that we'll be caught up for a time, and God will judge the earth. I believe according to is it two Thessalonians four or five? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think it's two Thessalonians four. They're going to look it up for me. And I didn't see this question coming, so I
Donna Martin:should That's have read all right. But
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:here's the misnomer. In the ancient world, when a king came, you went out with him to bring him into the city. You didn't go out with him to go back with him. And so that's where modern translations have really made a mistake. Jesus doesn't come to take us up with Him to heaven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We go up to the sky to meet Him to come down so that He rules and He reigns. So this gets into questions about the thousand literal reign in Revelation and all these questions. And what I would just say is Revelation is a very difficult book to understand, and very smart, godly people disagree. And everyone who's figured it out has been historically wrong 100% of the time. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That was great. That's my best thing. What I would say is Jesus is coming. It's real. It's bodily.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And as saints, those of us who are alive, when he comes with a shout from heaven in the twinkling of an eye, we will be with him forever. So Amen. Amen.
Donna Martin:Thank you. That was awesome. Well, thank you for checking out this episode. You can always submit your questions by going to move.sc/ask or just go to the church app, Samples Church app, and we will see you next time. Thank you.
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