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A weekly show from the folks at East Lansing Info breaking down all the news and happenings in East Lansing, Michigan.
WDBM East Lansing.
Speaker 2:This is East Lansing Insider brought to you by ELI on Impact eighty nine FM. In this show, we break down all of the news and happenings in the East Lansing community. And now, today's East Lansing Insider.
Speaker 3:Hi, everyone. This is East Lansing info managing editor, Lucas Day. I'm back with another episode of the East Lansing Insider podcast. Today we're doing something a little bit unusual. We're going outside of East Lansing.
Speaker 3:We're gonna talk about Meridian Township. I'm joined by Meridian Township Land Stewardship and Deer Management Coordinator, Emma Campbell. Thanks for joining me, Emma.
Speaker 1:Thanks. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 3:So today we're going to talk about the Meridian Township Deer Management Program. And the reason that we're talking about the Meridian Township Deer Management Program is if you talk to people that work on conservation at the state level, they talk about our neighbors, Meridian Township, as a model of how to manage deer in an urban environment. It's something that's really hard to do. It's something we've heard a lot for years in East Lansing City Council meetings. Last year, discussion in East Lansing was about whether or not they wanted to continue with their program, whether or not it was worth the cost.
Speaker 3:People were still seeing property damage and plants being eaten by deer. There were still car accidents and Meridian Township, which has a more established program, a more robust program that's been established for much longer, they've seen results that show that attitudes about deer are shifting, fewer car accidents, and so I brought Emma on to talk about that a little bit. Emma, can you explain the program?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was a great intro, and I did step into the program. I started with the township in January 2020, so I inherited it. This is its fifteenth year. So it was really launched in 2010 at a much smaller level and much less properties, less hunters. And so yes, now we're in our fifteenth year and now we have 63 volunteer archers this year.
Speaker 1:And they're all community members. So I know people will contact me after this. And so there are stipulations, you know, you have to either be a taxpayer or live in Meridian Township or be an employee of Meridian Township. And you know, that was a regulation I stepped into, but I do think it's a good one because we already have a really big wait list with that and a lot of people are interested and then it keeps it really close home and within our community. So yes, this year we have 63 volunteer archers, and so they utilize the state archery season.
Speaker 1:So October 1 to January 1. We don't do the late antler lists because then we roll into our call that is implemented by our police department. But all of these volunteers are registered, they have to go through mandatory training with us, They have to take a proficiency test. And, you know, we don't really like running a lottery or anything. We like to bring the same people back because, again, it's such a community oriented program.
Speaker 1:And it is a very sensitive program. And we put a heck of a lot of care into it. So we want the same people coming back and we want them to know who their neighbors are and know their area that they're hunting. So yeah, they hunt during the archery season. We use deer management assistance permits.
Speaker 1:And so we work really closely with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources and we work with their, wildlife biologists locally, who I'm probably gonna butcher his last name. It used to be Chad Fiedewa. It is another Chad. Chad Kroonenmeyer. I can't remember, but Chad K, we'll call him.
Speaker 1:And then we also work with the state's elk, moose, and deer biologists. So we're really working closely with them strategize and talk about what we need to do. So we have a strategic meeting with them every year, and then we talk about how many permits we'd like to fulfill. And then we apply and we have all of our management units laid out, which are 43 or 42 different township properties. And then we have about 30 private properties that we have permission to hunt onto.
Speaker 1:And so this year we've been approved by the DNR and actually recommended to harvest three fifty deer from the township. So we do what we can with our archery season. It's a great program. It's a great way for people to have a very unique recreation opportunity within an urban setting. And they usually harvest anywhere from like 140 up to even 176 deer within the archery season.
Speaker 1:And then whatever, you know, we're not able to, you know, cover with our goal, then we roll into the call in January and our police department implements that. And they use completely different permits. So they're working more off of a permit that sharpshooters would employ. So they're using totally different equipment. It's totally different program.
Speaker 1:But that, in a nutshell, is the program. But it's very layered, it's very complex, and yeah, there's a lot of moving pieces.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a lot that goes into this. And just for context, the program in East Lansing's much different. They were initially approved to remove about 100 deer a few years back. They've been removing about 80 the last few years, at least those were the numbers I last saw. And so in Meridian Township, you're removing much more, but also East Lansing pays USDA sharpshooters to come in.
Speaker 3:You've got community members and township employees that are hunting out of tree stands. And when I first heard about this program, know, safety was one of the things I wondered about, but fifteen years you've had no injuries, no stray errors that have hit anyone. Can you just talk about all that goes into making sure that this program's safe?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it is 100% the first thing I think of. I mean, when I took this program on, I, you know, to be able to defend these folks and to defend the program, I really needed to ensure that I felt like it was safe. And also I'm the stewardship coordinator. So I'm out in these areas all the time, you know, while our hunters are out there as well. So we do get people who call and that is one of their concerns.
Speaker 1:And the whole reason they started with archery is because, you know, there's a lot of different factors. So for one, you know, that's why the firearm portion is done by the police department. You know, they're trained people to handle firearms in public places. And and again, they have different permits. So for the means of starting the archery program, yeah, we would never go to rifle for that because of that safety aspect.
Speaker 1:So with the archery, they're up in a tree stand. You know, some of them use different We do approve some people to use blinds if they're disabled or have issues with that. But pretty much, you know, they're shooting at a downward angle. To take an ethical shot, you know, that deer has to be within twenty, twenty five yards of them. And so they have a really good view of that target.
Speaker 1:And so, I mean, just hearing them talk, and you know, they have to check-in and check out every time they go in and out with, you know, even when they go out to check their cameras, or if they have any of their, if they're doing anything for their hunting, scouting, anything, they have to check-in with us. And that's for a lot of reasons. So it is safety for them. You know, they are in tree stands. It is dangerous.
Speaker 1:You can fall from a tree stand and actually, unfortunately, people have sabotaged your tree stands and cut their safety lines. So it's safety for them. It's also so that, you know, we can alert the authorities or local police if someone does see someone with a weapon on a property, then we know for sure, oh, well our hunter just walked out. You know, or maybe they didn't. So they need to check that out.
Speaker 1:And then it's just so we know where they are in case anything does happen. You know, I, I think one of the, the things that really speaks the loudest to the safety of this program is we have a lot of people who violate the dog leash law. So it's a state law. It's also a local ordinance that your dog needs to be on a six foot leash. And there's a lot of reasons for this.
Speaker 1:It's safety for other people. It's also good for the natural area. But those dogs are off leash all the time and they go right under the hunter stands. You know, they know the hunter's there. A lot of times the people don't know they're there.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, we've had people have full blown conversations underneath a hunter stand and they have no idea they're there. And the hunter's like, I don't want to scare them and like say something, so they just kind of stay quiet. And then like no one even notices them. And then there's dogs running underneath. And so that is one thing where people have told me, well, about my dog?
Speaker 1:My dog could look like a deer. And so it's just really amazing to think like, no, nothing has happened because they are out there, they're very focused. I mean, they're so on edge at that point looking for a deer. And again, that target has to be so close that they're really able to make that difference. You know, and then again, your dog should be on a leash, but it just goes to show that people are breaking that rule and nothing's happening and the hunters see it coming a mile away.
Speaker 1:I think, you know, for me, the safety is really there. And honestly, the hunter has the most to lose if something happens. All the liability is on them if an incident happens. So really, they're they're gonna stay safe also to for themselves. So yeah, it is a very safe program and I'm so happy, with our group and and just that, you know, everything has run well.
Speaker 1:And of course over the years like you can't always predict you you can't always predict behavior of any group of people that you manage. But, you know, if there is ever a problem, we we get rid of people. We have. And and we take it very seriously. I take it very seriously.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. That was a long No. No.
Speaker 1:Answer to that. But, yeah, it is important.
Speaker 3:And so you've mentioned that you've got 67 hunters right now, and I know the program's grown quite a bit since it started fifteen years ago. Can you talk about what you started with, what you have now, and just kind of give me a description of where they're placed throughout the township?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I actually have my little table here too. So in 2011, there was 25 hunters total. They hunted seven properties and they harvested about 43 deer. That So was like the first year and, you know, also the first year we had a lot of safety zones set up. So we just wanted to be, you know, really far away from anything such as a house or anything, you know, trialing that program out.
Speaker 1:But also, in case anyone is wondering, in Meridian Township it's a zero distance rule for archery. So with a firearm, have to be, I think, like four fifty feet away from a dwelling. So archery, it's actually zero distance. So it seems kinda crazy, but it does give us that ability to set up in small areas, because again, that safety aspect. So that's where we started at, and it it definitely grew over the years.
Speaker 1:Now remember, they used be able to bait up until 2014. So they were actively baiting in that program, and still the highest number of deer that was harvested was 150 deer, and that was with 73 hunters. Then chronic wasting disease came in and totally changed everything. And the DNR actually mandated the USDA to come in, and they took so many deer out of the population because of chronic wasting disease. So even in the Van Atta block, there was 400 deer taken alone in the township.
Speaker 1:So that was pretty crazy. And through that, though, you know, then we had to stop baiting and things kind of slowed down. In 2020, we had like this reinvigoration of complaints and we had a lot of people coming out of the community that were just really frustrated and upset with your car collisions, landscape damage, and those sorts of things. So we kind of got tasked with this by the board in 2020. We got a little extra funding, and they were like, We need to think outside the box.
Speaker 1:We need to do more. And so we didn't even up our hunters at all. So this year, we have 63 hunters. So we're actually kind of hovering around that 70 number, but we're actually managing more with less hunters, if you think about it, than we did even in the early days baiting. So in 2020, we got a donation cooler.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we were starting to realize and what I've learned being on the deer advisory team for the state is that hunters harvest one or two deer, they fill up their freezer, and then that's it. And in Southern Michigan, we have such an overpopulation, there's hunters that want to harvest more. So we got that donation cooler, and that really changed the dynamic of the program, and it just really upped those harvest numbers. So that first year that we allowed people to put any deer into the cooler for donation, there was 176 harvested in the archery program, and that is our record so far. So that's kind of the evolution of like the numbers and how many deer we've managed through archery and everything.
Speaker 1:But that cooler has really made a difference. And then that was the same year we also decided to bring in the police department to run the call. So that harvest number since 2020 is the highest it's been. But that's where we've seen a lot of the success that we've had. That's where we've seen those deer car collision numbers really come down.
Speaker 1:So it's definitely been an evolution, but it's, yeah, I think it's all happened the way it was supposed to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's kind of a good segue into the next thing I wanted to get into, I'm from Northern Michigan. Everyone hunts up there. The teachers started holding their in service days the first day of deer season because they knew none of the kids would be there. My dad hunts, or he tries to. I've never seen him get a deer.
Speaker 3:He also had he also had five kids. Think he might have I been
Speaker 1:love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Think he might have been sleeping in the blind.
Speaker 1:I don't blame him.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Gotta take your moments when But you have five some of the anecdotes that I've heard about this, about what hunters have done in this program, they draw envy from people around from sportsmen around the state. Up north, if you get one deer, I I think you're usually pretty satisfied. There's some real diehard guys that wanna get a second one. But, you know, you get a couple, that's that's a really good year.
Speaker 3:And they're getting more here. Can you just talk about that for a little bit?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really interesting to hear. And again, I've been really happy to be on that deer advisory team just to learn about deer management through the Lower And Upper Peninsula. And it's crazy. It's like night and day. You know, Northern Michigan and Upper Peninsula have a complete opposite problem than we do.
Speaker 1:You know, they don't have enough deer to be able to go have their hunting goals for that year. But in Southern Michigan, because, you know, really the way that we've displaced the landscape, you know, we've displaced predators. Like in Meridian Township, there's so much green space, and that's why people like living there. But that's also why there's a lot of deer in their backyards eating their hostas, which I don't ever recommend planting. Please don't plant hostas if you don't want the deer to eat them.
Speaker 1:And so, it is really interesting. Some of our, so with our deer management assistance permits, pretty much we get that cap number, and then they can fill as many as they want on any property. So as long as it's a management unit that is approved in that permit, or if it's adjacent to the management unit. So if it's a piece of land directly touching that, we can also give out DMAPS for those parcels as well. And so really, there's no limit now that we also have that donation cooler, and they just have to field dress their deer.
Speaker 1:You know, Mike Ellis rules the cooler, and if you don't do it right, he'll call you, as he should. And so that's really made a difference. So there, you know, we have a core group of hunters who get eight to 10 every year, and then we have two, and they're, you know, they're retired, so they do, they will say they have time on their hands, but they get sixteen, seventeen deer a season. So yeah, I mean, that's just thing, you know, that's unheard of up north for folks. So yeah, I mean, that is so different, and I think that's why deer management in the state is so incredibly hard, and honestly, folks should give the DNR a lot more credit, because it's a very difficult task to do deer management right, And we are able to do it because we have awesome staff and we have funding for it, but it takes a lot of work.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean, I think that just goes to show that we can easily harvest that many deer here, you know. And it's hard because a lot of people think, Oh my gosh, three fifty deer every year? You know, that's so much. Like, and, you know, some of our critics, which we do We have overwhelming support for the program, but we do have critics, and I completely understand. I talk to those people.
Speaker 1:I get it, you know, it's tough. Everything is a trade off where we're at right now with land management. But we can easily fill that every year. So that's saying something. And when we meet with the DNR, you know, they're essentially telling us, because when we started getting into the 300s and getting three fifty, we were like, Heck yeah, like we are like making a dent.
Speaker 1:And they were like, well, actually you're basically maintaining what is born into the population that year at that point. You know, each doe is having two to three fawns. So we're really in a maintenance level with that number. So I think, you know, we should all think about that and really understand. I mean, historically, there's supposed to be 20 deer per square mile.
Speaker 1:And I think that number really blows people's minds. And, you know, when I added it up for the township, I think it came out to be like seven twenty deer should live in the township at like a balanced ecological historical level. And so that's why we kind of come up with that number, Because, you know, there's estimates that we have 800 to maybe like 1,100, 1,200. But again, you know, when people always want that hard number, they always want to know, well, many deer in the township? Well, unless we run out and tackle all of them and mark them, we're never going to know.
Speaker 1:And it's really hard to know. We've thought about doing helicopter surveys. They're just not really representative of the population for how much they cost. So either way, all those things together, you know, it shows us that we do have an issue in Southern Michigan in our urban areas. And again, it's not, you know, it's not the deer's fault.
Speaker 1:It's just they're just trying to live and get by just like we are, and we're planting candy in our backyards, and we're also preserving natural areas, which is great. But, you know, like right down the road from our office, another subdivision just went up and there was a ton of deer who used to bed in there every night in Turkey. And I got my first call from a resident about why is there turkey and deer in my backyard. You just built your house where they used to bed down every night. So I think it's also really important for us to realize these are tough choices land managers like me have to make and these are tough programs we have to run, but also we're all here, we're all part of it.
Speaker 1:So, you know, just something I like to try to think about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and kind of in the same line with that, you mentioned briefly earlier chronic wasting disease, when there was a chronic wasting disease in Meridian Township. And I can't remember which organization you said, someone sent in sharpshooters and they took all the deer out of the area. And I've heard you talk before about that population never really rebounded. So you guys put a lot of thought into where you're taking deer from, making sure they're managed right. One of the goals of this management program isn't just taking deer out to eliminate car crashes and stop them from eating flowers and things like that.
Speaker 3:It's also ecologically important. And I've heard from people at the state level that as well because chronic wasting disease, it's always fatal for deer. I can remember a few years back, there was a lot of panic about chronic wasting disease. They thought it might decimate the deer population. For those of you who haven't heard of chronic wasting disease, they call it zombie deer disease, which makes it sound a lot scarier.
Speaker 3:But it's always fatal. So, I guess, can you talk a little bit more about why it's important that this program be in place to reduce the risk of chronic wasting disease? And then also talk a little bit more about what happened when chronic wasting disease was in the area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it's tremendously important. I mean, you know, obviously our population as a whole, I mean, you know, since things like COVID and I mean, disease is very much present and with that overpopulation, it just exacerbates everything. And we just had a positive deer in Genesee County now. So it's getting closer and closer to us. And you know, everybody's kind of saying it's gonna be all over the state again, you know, like it's kind of inevitable.
Speaker 1:But you know, at least we can have some peace of mind that we feel like we're trying to do something about it and make that population more sustainable. And you're right, like it's, I mean, think the deer car collisions are so important. I mean, that's amazing. Because also I've seen deer get smoked and the person doesn't even stop, you know, and that deer isn't even dead complete. It's sad, you know, and it's not good for them.
Speaker 1:It's not good for the person driving the car. But in the landscape damage is important and I do have a lot of empathy for that, but I'm the stewardship coordinator. So for me, the ecological impact is huge. I mean, I am sad about landscape plants getting eaten for the people who put money into them, But I'm seeing native plants disappear at an astounding rate. And we find some of these plants that we're, you know, we'll find one of them and we're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we found one.
Speaker 1:And these are plants that used to be all over this area. So it's really, for me, feels like an emergency. And when our deer are overpopulated as well, they're only gonna make that worse. Know, I wish I could train them to eat invasive species. Maybe someday I'll be able to.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so there's a whole cascade of things and even EHD, I don't know if I'm saying it right, but it's spread by the midge. Know, there's there's a little bit of an uprising of that and that's a pretty natural cycle, but there are different diseases that we do need to consider and And the deer are hugely affected by this, and it's not a pretty way to go. You know, I mean, there's really I think that's the other thing is there's really no pretty way for a wild animal to go in nature. I mean, I think it would be pretty rare. But, you know, when these deer come in, they look healthy.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're huge does and they've had a whole life of having offspring and they have a nice thick layer of fat on them. You know, I think people really underestimate how hard it is on these wild animals. You know, like last year we actually had more, you know, toward the end of the winter, we actually had like real snowfall. We had like several weeks under 20 degrees. And during those times, deer are starting to eat bark and they're eating things that, you know, it's kind of a last resort.
Speaker 1:And so anything that adds to that overpopulation is only just gonna make it harder for them in those conditions. And, you know, we had a lot more people call last year and say, oh, my pines are getting stripped or my, you know, balsam or what, you know, a landscaping evergreen is getting stripped basically. Like, what's going on with that? The deer population must be worse this year. It must be denser.
Speaker 1:But that's kind of the whole thing. We become so disconnected. We don't realize, well, when the winter is harder, what are those deer gonna eat? They're gonna eat the thing that's still left there growing, or they're gonna eat bark, which I mean, doesn't sound great to me. So I think, you know, these are all the things that we need to think about with the overpopulation.
Speaker 1:And then again, with Genesee County having Chronic Wasting Disease, it is scary. And I wasn't in the township. I wasn't working for the township when the Chronic Wasting Disease hit. It must have been crazy for them, having having the deer management program running. But I did hear about it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, so it was the Department of Natural Resources. They basically mandated the USDA to come in and really just decrease the population heavily to get that out of there to also, you know, it spread through, I mean, that's why they banned baiting. It spread through saliva and contact that way. So really their goal was just to thin out the population as much as they could. And so that helped, and that really worked, and it did really hit some of those populations, like I said, over in Van Ada pretty hard.
Speaker 1:But we are starting to see I think we really are starting to see that area rebound. People are already having a good year out there this year. But I think the other interesting thing is, you know, they must have really decimated that population over there. Because we will harvest different areas pretty heavy, like Glendale Cemetery area, because there's a lot of deer car collisions over there. And, you know, then the next year we were like, Oh, we're not seeing deer here.
Speaker 1:So like when that first happened, that hadn't happened to us before. So we were like, Okay, maybe we like did too much. And we backed off for a year and it only took a year, and they all filled back in. So they're also really smart. They redistribute.
Speaker 1:They fill the population back in really well. You know, they're very good at reproduction. So I think it is all very interesting. Yeah, we still so they were mandating when we did have chronic wasting disease, we did have to have every single deer tested. So they do that through the lymph nodes, they pull them, and MSU actually, the lab does that testing.
Speaker 1:But that isn't a thing anymore necessarily, but for our donation deer, we do have to have all of those tested for CWD. So that's, it's nice. I actually like that. It gives me a little bit of a pulse on the local CWD, and you know, I mean, we've never had anything come up positive, so that's good. So either way, hopefully we can kind of nip some things in the bud having this program and being a little more proactive so that our deer don't have to go through CWD.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. And when I've talked to food banks in the past for stories, during COVID, I was reporting the Upper Peninsula and I talked to our food bank quite a bit because people were, you know, needing their services. What I'd consistently hear is that they get a lot of donations of things like canned foods and non perishables, but they didn't get a lot of good protein like venison, is deer meat. Can you talk about how much you give to food banks every year and just the feedback you get from them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my absolute favorite part of the program. And again, I just have to give a shout out to Mike Ellis because he has literally taken every single deer and taken every single pound of venison to be processed, to go to food banks. And so we were donating I don't really have good figures of when we were donating before chronic wasting disease in the program. So I don't really know the level that we were donating at back then. But then, obviously, with CWD, that all kind of got pushed down a little bit.
Speaker 1:But then again in 2020 we were like, hey we we want to like do this again. Know it is COVID. People are really hard up. I think that's the first time I really realized it's hard for food banks to get protein and sometimes they're paying for it. And we just think like they just get this, right?
Speaker 1:We think it's just handed to them all the time and it's not. And so if they don't get it, they just don't have protein. And so it was really great when we got the go ahead to do that. And I think, so I added up the numbers since we started donating in 2020, we've donated over 35,000 pounds of venison locally. And it was kind of great when we started because we were just gonna kinda dump everything at Lansing Food Bank, which is a great organization, but Mike Ellis wanted it to be more local.
Speaker 1:He wanted to hand deliver the meat. And so we have 14 to 16, which I thought was really awesome. And they love Mike, and they send us thank you cards. Like they're so grateful. They're great partners to have.
Speaker 1:And they're always thanking us. And so yeah, there's 14 to 16 of them locally that, he gives to. And so they'll get, you know, some of them only want only really need a small amount. Some of them take hundreds of pounds from us. But I think that's the really special thing is it's a very local, sustainable source of protein.
Speaker 1:It's very lean. It's really good for you. And I mean, that animal is wild till it's not. And you know, with all of the issues we have with our meat industry, I just think it's an extremely beautiful cycle, and I think it's a really great way for people to get local protein and also, you know, contribute to something that is giving us, you know, ecological structure and a little bit of balance, at least a little bit. So yeah, that's what we we generally donate anywhere from 6 to 8,000 pounds a season.
Speaker 1:So it depends, you know, we require our hunters. So every hunter has to donate their first deer. So a piece of that is to also like push them out of, you know, harvesting a buck and then just kind of sitting. Because, you know, as great and structured as our program is, I mean, are core values that a lot of hunters have in Michigan. And there's a lot of core values around bucks that it's hard to tease out, right?
Speaker 1:But we are a management program, so our goal is antlerless. But they are allowed to harvest bucks on their personal tags. Ours are completely antlerless permits. So they have to donate that first deer, and everyone is always really happy to donate. But then after that, they can either keep or donate.
Speaker 1:And most of them, especially, you know, our hunters who are harvesting quite a few, they generally donate almost all of them. During rifle season, the processors are so busy that they can't take our deer during that time. So we still keep the donation cooler open. And then we pretty much are like, hey, if you know a family in need or someone who could benefit, just donate your deer through that, you know, if you end up getting your first deer. And it's really cool because they'll get together and we have like a Facebook group and they'll be like, oh, so and so needs a deer or, you know, and so they really like are collaborative, and they work together to make sure everyone's being taken care of.
Speaker 1:And I think that's really cool. They're incredibly giving group of people. They bring us, you know, hunter sticks in all the time, and venison. So, yeah, I think really for them, it's really easy. And then for our police call, those every single one of those deer is donated.
Speaker 1:So we generally get, you know, 150 deer at least from that program to donate. So, yeah.
Speaker 3:Deer are pretty big animals, and there's no way to do this program invisibly. You know, they If you've hunted, you know that usually when you shoot a deer, doesn't go down right away, it runs a little bit. Have you run into any issues with that? Is there any anecdotes about deer, you know, being hit one place and then they're found another?
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, it's one of the pieces that when we do our mandatory meeting and stuff, we actually do go over, you know, we have like a, this is how we do things for the public. You know, this is how we show them, like, this is how we educate them. Like, we wanna be like a united front of, you know, we don't wanna like overexpose anyone or freak anyone out. Like, you know, again, hunting is that pretty niche thing.
Speaker 1:If you didn't grow up in a hunting family, it was probably really hard for you to understand it or be involved in it. Like it's hard to break into if it's not part of your family culture. And so, you know, we do talk about that a lot. And I always tell them, you know, it really helps me because in the end, I'm the contact person. And so we have had that happen.
Speaker 1:And I think, you know, something that I do want folks to understand is I have every faith that all of these hunters are taking the best shot they possibly can. You know, that's why we make them go to the shooting range and show us, demonstrate that they can do this. But they're also humans, and it happens. And you could also have the best shot ever and have it be a fatal shot, and that deer has so much adrenaline, and we've seen it where we're like, it shouldn't even have run this far, but it did. And I think, you know, it's really important for folks to understand that because they immediately see that and they think it was completely done irresponsibly.
Speaker 1:And you know what? Sometimes, I'm sure it is. And there's also other people who hunt in the township who are not program hunters. There's not that many, but they are out there. And so someone will call and say, oh, I saw a deer with an arrow sticking out of its butt, which also we found has been a lie before or an exaggeration, I should say.
Speaker 1:And then also, again, like, it it will happen sometimes in an area where we didn't have a hunter out or it's really far away from one of our management units. So it probably wasn't us anyway. But we do own up to everything. I mean, we're very transparent with the public. Like we, I try to be as, you know, as transparent as I can be with folks and I really want to help ease their minds when something comes up.
Speaker 1:But, you know, like we did have one of our hunters had a great shot. He was hunting on a really small property and the deer ran and it ran behind, you know, a senior living facility and died behind someone's window. And it was very traumatic. And the hunter did everything completely correct. They called the police for dispatch.
Speaker 1:Because the police will come out and humanely dispatch a deer. I mean, that's what they do when a deer gets hit on the road and doesn't die. He did everything correctly. He really tried to be there for the people who saw it. And he was just a wreck from it, you know?
Speaker 1:Like, it really affected him. And they never wanna see a deer run. That's like the worst thing for them. They don't These people aren't out there hoping that these animals suffer. I mean, an example, because we have that check-in and checkout form, we ask them to put comments, and just one of the comments the other day was, Oh, me, I just sat in a tree 20 yards from raccoon and we both watched the sunset.
Speaker 1:You know? I mean, they they have feelings and they love being outside and they love animals and they send us pictures all the time. And so either way, yes, it does happen. And like you had mentioned earlier, the Hartrick hat trick. So Hartrick is an extremely difficult property to hunt.
Speaker 1:We do manage there, but it has recreation fields. Most people don't realize it has a little pathway behind the recreation fields. It's actually really lovely, overlooks a wetland. And one of our hunters was able to harvest three deer that morning at the same time, which before this program, I was like, I didn't know that was the thing. Like what are they doing?
Speaker 1:Well, especially because archery, it's quiet, so they'll stand there. So, yes, he had to drag three deer out in the middle of a soccer game. And, know, I mean, we in our meetings, they ask me this. What do we do if there's people there? Cause some of them hunt at places where they're just not high use, and people don't really know about them.
Speaker 1:That's the preserves usually. They don't even have a parking lot half the time. And so they don't really have to experience that as much. But yeah, when they are at those places where there's recreation, I say, well, you probably can't wait that long, especially if it's in early October and it's 80 degrees. So you just gotta drag them out and they have my info on them.
Speaker 1:They have a card that identifies them. So if anybody approaches them, they can give them the information. And I always tell them, if you can't have a levelheaded conversation with someone or vice versa, if they're not being levelheaded with you, just tell them to take a picture of my contact. They can I'll handle it. I'll deal with it.
Speaker 1:So I always give them that option because, you know, when they have adrenaline and they're out there, I want them to be able to stay cool. And if they can't, then that's what I'm there for. But it was kind of funny. He said when that happened, he said no one even asked him a single question or anything. So, I mean, part of me is like, well, they were either maybe so freaked out they didn't approach him.
Speaker 1:Or, you know, I mean, we put signs everywhere, we send letters out, we do news press or, you know, a press release. And then I'm usually doing interviews around town. So I think most people know what's going on and whether or not those, that group of people agreed with it, they they didn't have a problem enough where they went and approached him and talked to him about it. So I think at a certain level, there is a lot of understanding. But, we just we just deal with it as we go and we just hope everything goes well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, but it is interesting because, you know, state law, you have to have permission to retrieve a deer on other properties. So I do try to tell them, you know, before you're in hunting gear, try to introduce yourself to neighbors. It's tough, but it might help you down the road. And generally, a lot of the neighbors are very understanding and give permission. And even the neighbors who don't support the program, they've come to an agreement with the hunters because they do realize that they are, you know, compassionate, kind people, they don't wanna make others uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:So it really means a lot to them when they can kind of form some kind of bridge with the neighbors there.
Speaker 2:So yeah.
Speaker 3:All right, Emma, last question. So your police do about a good portion of this call every year. Do they get excited for this? Is this something that they wanna do recreationally?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tough. They actually really don't like doing the program. Yeah, because I mean, you know, it was tough to bring in that program too because like we knew and we felt that some people in the archery program would feel like our territory is being encroached on, right? But again, we're all here for management, so we have to do the greater picture thing. So a lot of them assume that, or when there's an article posted online, people will be like, let me sign up to do the call.
Speaker 1:And I'm just always like, I hate to tell you, but like they, it's, they're out from, you know, basically pm to midnight or, you know, 2AM in the morning. It's really cold at that point in the year. It's the, you know, usually they start January 1. It generally takes them about thirteen or fourteen days to complete their harvest. Because again, they're using a totally different system.
Speaker 1:I mean, they are allowed to bait. They have the permit for that, but also all the bait piles are cleaned up right away. You know, they're managed very closely. And they're using firearms. So the baiting becomes much more important at that point for safety and for effectiveness.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, they're out at night. It's freezing. They use my truck, so at least they get to be in a truck. And then it's very high volume. So it's just, it's not fun for them, to be honest.
Speaker 1:And they do it because they know it's a great program, and they, you know, our Lieutenant Jason Clements is running that program now, and he's taken a lot of pride in it, as he should. And so, you know, because we've kind of offered that, you know, we got a little bit of a funding tightening up. But for a minute, you know, we were kind of considering, well, should we just look more into the USDA? You know, you're police officers. This wasn't in your job description.
Speaker 1:This is a lot for you to take on. They don't get overtime. They just flex it right into their normal schedule. And so, but he was like, no, you know, I think we've built something good right now and I wanna see it through, which was cool. Because we were trying to take some pressure off of them.
Speaker 1:It would have been, you know, much more expensive, but also the USDA does a great job. I mean, there's no one who does a better job than they do at what they do. So yeah, I don't think they really enjoy it, but they take a lot of pride in it, and they do a really good job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. That's all I got for you, Emma. Thanks so much for coming on. Yeah. Good luck with the program this year.
Speaker 3:I'm sure you're gonna get more and more great anecdotes from it. I appreciate your time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate getting to kind of explain it a little more in-depth because there's a lot that goes on. So thanks for inviting me, and I'm excited to hear the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, most definitely. So this has been the East Lansing Insider podcast. I've been East Lansing Info Managing Editor Luke Day. We'll see you guys next week.
Speaker 2:East Lansing Insider is brought to you by ELI on Impact eighty nine FM. We are on the web at eastlancinginfo.newsandimpact89fm.org. Thanks for listening.