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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.558)
Hi.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:00.815)
Hi. Jinx.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:03.438)
Well, almost. I think I beat you just barely. How are you, first of all?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:11.707)
I've been better, I've been better, taking care of a sick dog all night, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:12.622)
Yeah. Hey, me too. Yeah. I mean, with a sick kid, I think, uh, I wonder if there's just, uh, something in the air. I don't know. Maybe it's just, there's probably somebody who knows the like moon reason or the, you know, astrological reason. It's probably a, what's it? Mercury and retrograde. And I don't even know it. Like I'll be having, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:20.654)
Maybe. Maybe.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:26.498)
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (00:33.241)
Listen, I don't care what the reason is. I just want it to be over.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:38.38)
Me too. Today feels like knock on wood. It has the potential for the turnaround to begin in my house, but we'll see. But anyway, all right, so I'll die inside.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:46.497)
Okay. I was going to ask you what shade of lipstick that is because it looks really good on you.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:55.04)
It's hilarious because I think it's intense. when I, normally wear something, this is only for our YouTube folks, I suppose. But I usually, well, first of I normally don't wear any makeup, not a stitch of it. And if I want to put on any makeup, it's usually just lipstick. And I feel most comfortable in like much lighter shades, but I get so many compliments on this that I end up wearing it for podcasts and stuff when I feel like the truth is I haven't washed my hair in days. I haven't showered in days. And so, and I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (01:23.086)
It looks good. Your hair looks good though.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:24.864)
in my pajamas, even though you can't tell. So I just was like, I need to like comb my hair and put on some lipsticks. I feel a little better. This is called Number 7 Matte Liquid Lips by the Boots Company out of England. And it's 7340 is the number. That's the best I got for you. But it's just like a little, it goes on really easily and it lasts for quite a while. So anyway, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:40.474)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:47.15)
Yeah.
It's a good color.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:51.694)
But I always feel like, whoa, I feel like I'm walking in the room. Like it feels like a peacocking thing, you know, that peacocking where you like wear something that makes people notice you. And I don't love being noticed, so it's a bit much. But anyway, it does its job for podcasting.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:59.994)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that, yeah. And much is your art too.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:08.738)
Well, I mean, you got to stay on brand at all costs. Well, thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:10.81)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it looks really good on you. It looks really good on you. So you were just telling me you haven't seen Sinners yet.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:20.66)
yeah, I have not seen Sinners, which I know is a real travesty, but I am apparently one of the only folks. The reason I haven't is because I don't do horror movies like just a rule. I was saying I also haven't seen anything by Jordan Peele. I can't tell you the last time I saw a scary movie might have been Blair Witch Project. And even that I think I saw later as a rental. Like I don't. I can't stand the idea of being in a dark theater where I can't.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:30.296)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:41.367)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:48.354)
I don't know who's behind me or what's like, it's giving me honestly, creepy colleagues even just thinking about it and watching it. And like, no, even if the only way I have to be in the back row. And even then I still wouldn't believe that there's not someone lurking. I don't do scary. I have massive anxiety and so I don't like to push anxiety with it. But I will say the reason that we're talking about is because I sent you something that said Sinners is the highest grossing original movie in America. Original meaning not a sequel because there's so many of those.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:50.464)
Mmm
Hmm
Taina Brown she/hers (03:02.284)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (03:06.913)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:11.094)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:15.886)
in America this decade and it's not even close. And I think it's it'd be like, what is it half a billion dollars or something? I don't know, I'll try to find the number, but you saw it, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:17.337)
.
I did see it. Yeah, we saw it maybe a couple weeks after it came out. I don't like scary movies either and I would consider this one more suspense than scary, although there are a few jump scares. I do watch Jordan Peele's movies just because his storytelling is really good. So even though the movies are a little bit on the horror side of things, the storytelling is really good and I do appreciate good storytelling.
I, what I like to do, I don't know if this helps you or if you've tried this, but when it is a movie that I know is going to induce anxiety, because that's the same reason why I don't like scary movies. I don't like not knowing when the jump scares are going to happen or I will read up on it. I'll just read the plot. I'll just like give myself all the spoilers. So I know what to expect. I didn't do that with Sinners though.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:17.806)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (04:23.287)
I didn't do that with sinners. But yeah, it was really good.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:27.552)
Yeah, I don't do that. I've heard. So just back to Jordan Peele quickly, because I remember seeing the preview. I think I was out of I was in a theater or just watching on TV, more likely on TV, because since we've had a kid, I rarely go to the movies anymore. But the preview for the movie, no, my husband and I are watching it. And I was like, I could tell it was scary. It was Jordan Peele. And I knew about the other movie. What's the one before that? The big one.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:53.913)
The first one, get out. Yeah, get out. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:55.192)
Yeah, the first one, his first big, what was it called? Get Out, that's right. And I hadn't seen it, but I knew the premise of it enough, because it was such a huge thing that I'd heard about it, but I knew it was scary. And so I saw this preview and it was looking scary. I knew it was Jordan Peele, so was like, okay, it's scary. And as I watched it again, I said to my husband, was like, nope, nope, nope, nope. And then the name of the movie was Nope. And I was like, well, now that's kind of perfect, but no, I won't see it. I don't care if I know exactly what's gonna happen. I just, I don't ride roller coasters, even if I know exactly what's gonna happen. Like I...
Taina Brown she/hers (05:17.835)
you
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:23.758)
I'm a person, I don't really like to take an airplane, even though that's like, I just like to have my feet securely on the ground. I don't need to be scared in order to feel like life is exciting. Like life is exciting enough for me. I like life enough that I don't need to like do these. I don't need adrenaline. Adrenaline is not a drug I seek. I seek dopamine lots of times in other ways. Like I'm like, okay, give me like that dopamine hit of, you know, a new like on social media or buying a new.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:34.643)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:51.086)
know, of shoes or whatever. Like, I like that kind of a chemical reaction. Adrenaline, I can pretty much live without.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:52.279)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:58.807)
Yeah, I hear that. hear that. I remember being in high school and my friends all wanted to see like the scream movies and the I know what she did last summer movies and I had no choice but to sit in the theater and watch them. But I would never make that choice for myself, especially now.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:14.648)
Hold, yeah, hold on one sec. Yes.
Okay, go find my phone, it's another thing.
we maybe will just leave that in. This is what's happening in life right now with the kid home for the summer. Yeah, it's a lot. I'm trying to mom and do this.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:26.848)
Yeah, yeah, summer bake.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:34.61)
so tell me about Sinners then and why it's so good. Cause I've been hearing it's really great. I have a feeling it's kind of allegorical or metaphorical or something is the impression I'm getting that it's obviously deeper than just a like horror movie.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:43.497)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:47.959)
Yeah, yeah it is, it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:51.842)
without giving too much away, no spoilers.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:53.26)
Yeah, no spoilers. First of all, Michael B. Jordan playing two characters. Yeah, twins. I didn't know that going into it. I knew he was in a movie.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:00.28)
twins right? Yeah. I did know it was about twins so I assumed they didn't hire real twins although I guess I shouldn't have assumed that.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:07.465)
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that it was about twins. I just knew he was in the movie. And so I was just like, shit, wow, okay. So he's playing two characters, which I mean, twins are, if you ever been around twins or you know twins, they're similar, but they're also different. And so, yeah, so that was just, I mean, he's just a phenomenal actor. The way the story is told is really...
Becky Mollenkamp (07:26.328)
very different.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:36.833)
good because it's told through like a flashback. It's really interesting. And so you kind of start at the end and then go back to the beginning and, you know, go forward. And it is definitely an allegory. It felt very I remember in grad school when I was getting my master's in humanities and I took a cultural studies class on at least talked about this, the history of American music and how it really
like Black culture really created American music. And so that's a really big theme throughout the film. This culture of Blackness in the American South that creates this really unique type of music. so there's a lot of... The entire movie feels like a blues song, if that makes sense. And so I really...
Becky Mollenkamp (08:08.652)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:31.054)
Hmm?
Taina Brown she/hers (08:34.091)
really appreciated that. There's a lot of world building in the first two thirds of the movie. So it feels really slow. And we saw it, I think we caught like an eight o'clock show in the middle of the week. So I was just.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:56.148)
yeah, that's late. I couldn't do that.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:01.992)
It's not a boring movie, but I was so tired. I was just like, I need the action to start. And then it's like the last dirt of the movie where the action like starts to pick up and take off. It's a little over two hours. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:06.04)
Can we get to it?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:12.354)
How long is it?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:16.334)
Okay, that's not too bad. I'm really tired of these like three hour, like who's got this kind of time? I wanna go back to the eighties when everything was like 90 minutes. That was perfect. But that shows my age and my attention span.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:21.619)
Yeah, like 90 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. So I think watching it at home might be if you can, if you can get through watching it out once it's like released on streaming and you can watch it at home.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:37.392)
yeah, at home I can have all the lights on. can sit with my back against the wall. I'm in my familiar environment. Like, yeah. And I can push pause anytime or fast forward. There's often what I do with horror movies. Like if I've ever watched anything, not even horror movies, because I don't watch horror, but if I watch anything that's like a little intense for me, I'll usually just kind of like skip through on the Netflix, like 10 seconds thing where I can still kind of tell what's happening. Or I push mute because I find that the music is so much a part of what raises the anxiety. And when you turn the music off,
Taina Brown she/hers (09:40.19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:46.398)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:05.503)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:06.882)
So much of that is relieved because they do that music intentionally to make you feel that way, which is cool that music can do that. like, well, I just wanted to quickly mention because I also sent to you this opinion piece from the Mississippi Free Press, which people don't read it or follow them on social media. I highly recommend they're a free. They're an independent free, meaning independent news outlet. And they are really good. Their reporting is really good. And in a time like this, we need more of this kind of reporting. But.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:11.763)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:34.252)
In addition to doing politics and stuff, they talked about Sinners and it's a review of it. And I just wanted to say what he, I think it's a he that wrote this, the person who wrote this. no, I'm so sorry. I think it might not be, but the person who wrote this, what they said, which is Sinners was a masterfully executed horror movie that features historically accurate depictions of ways black people survived Jim Crow. This was probably the most clever way to disguise a history lesson I have ever witnessed.
What I love most about the movie was its contextualized imagery of black people. And they go on to say like, I liked the color purple in movies like that. But the problem was that a lot of these historically celebrated black movies are talking about the pathology found in black culture without context. So they can allow the viewer to then see the black pathology while admitting the contaminated Petri dish.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:16.767)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:24.066)
the disease of dysfunction it was grown in. And so I thought that was really good. Like, basically it sounds like this is something that's trying to show a more robust and full picture of how the way black folks are showing up in this movie, like the context, the systems that helped to create that, which is really important. So that does make me feel like if I can get over my fear, maybe I need to see it.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33.161)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:41.052)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:47.337)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's definitely different types of blackness. Like you have the sheer croppers, you have like the preacher and his family, you have the twins who are from there, but, and this isn't giving much away in the movie, so it's not that much of a spoiler, but who end up enlisting in the military, fighting in one of the wars, and then move to Chicago and have come back to Mississippi after like...
No, I won't say that because that might give a little bit away of it. You have the mixed Black characters who are mixed Black and white because of the legacy of slavery in the South. You also have an Asian family, a Chinese family in Mississippi, which I thought was really clever to put in there because
there was a Chinese Immigration Act that was passed shortly before this time period that the movie takes place in, where they immigrated all these Chinese folks over to work on the railroads. And so there was like this influx of Chinese immigrants in the South, in the US South, who once the railroad was done, they were just there. And so they had kind of assimilated into Southern culture.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:47.63)
Mmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:14.304)
and there was one scene in particular that I absolutely loved and it was in the beginning of the movie because the world, the world building in the beginning, actually the whole thing also felt like watching a stage play. If you've ever watched a play in theater, the way that it's like a slow build and then everything just kind of happens at the end and then it like wraps up, but also the way that
stage plays use movement to dictate where you're supposed to pay attention to or what you're supposed to be paying attention to, right? And so there's one scene in the movie in the beginning where it's just, it feels like it's just like one camera take and it's like, I would say at least like a 10 minute long scene. And it's just like one camera take.
It feels like anyway, I didn't notice any cuts in the editing, but the camera is just like moving from one character to another. And it's moving like from their perspective, from one character's perspective to another through movement. And like it goes from one of the twins going into the store, one of the stores owned by the Chinese family.
to the father of the Chinese family, to the daughter of the Chinese family, to then the daughter walking across the street to the other store that they own. And then all of a sudden it's the mom's perspective and then she comes back to the original store and then it goes back to the father and then back to the twin. And so it's just like this weaving of perspectives and just like this short timeframe with this just like impeccable camera work. I was almost a film.
major in college. like, like film technicalities and things like that, like I really appreciate. And so I, that was my favorite scene in the entire movie. Just cause it was just, it was just beautifully done. It was just so beautifully done. I wanted to.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:20.846)
Well, I was just looking by the way. Oh, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say I was just looking in and it's apparently starting yesterday. You can start watching at home. I know we're talking about this late because it came out like a month ago, but it just it's just now hitting home. So if you're listening to this and like, oh, they're talking about something old, but like, just so you know, you can start watching it now on Prime Video. I think you still have to like rent it, but you can rent it at home so I could and it's going to finish its theatrical run. I think sometime towards the end of this month.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:23.698)
No, no, go ahead. Go ahead, because I was about to change the subject.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:34.076)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:43.878)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:49.107)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:50.242)
And it's made $350 million globally. So it's like done incredibly well. And I think part of before we move on from this, and I'm not sure where you wanted to go next, and maybe it'll be the same thing, but I want to make sure that we talk about Ryan Coogler's deal for this movie, because that's such a big part of the conversation as well. And I don't know if you know about his deal. Did you hear that chatter? So he negotiated a deal that it's really interesting. I don't know enough about the movie industry to be certain who to believe, but I tend to believe
Taina Brown she/hers (15:59.574)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:18.754)
Ryan Coogler in the story versus the studio executives. Because he negotiated a deal where he retains copyright for the movie after I think it's 10 years. So it will revert to him, which is unheard of. At least that's what the studio executives tried to say. People are saying like, that doesn't happen. And part of me thinks they're just trying to make sure other directors and writers don't try to negotiate the same deal. Because he's like, he had such belief in this project. He, it meant so much to him. He said it was deeply personal.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:20.034)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:30.939)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:38.418)
Don't do the same thing, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:46.934)
and he really had a lot of belief in it. And he was like, I don't want to give this away. Right. Like, I'm not giving this away forever. I want to own this because it's mine. And it feels like like almost like a part of his family. Right. And so he has this deal where in 10 years, the copyright right returns to him, which is massive because anything that comes out of that property, he'll get everything. Right. And that is like amazing. And considering it's made three hundred and fifty million dollars, I'm he also got points and
Taina Brown she/hers (16:52.068)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:04.646)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (17:08.863)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:13.681)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:15.682)
you know, things like that that are making him a ton of money off of it. But that is something that's huge, especially for a black director, black writer that doesn't happen very often. Right. Because the studio system has this history of like it used to be that even the actors had to be under contract and they were basically like, I don't know, it's not I would not want to remotely liken it to slavery, but like maybe more like share like sharecroppers or something where they're almost.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:24.338)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41.433)
Yeah, like they get royalties off of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:43.362)
where they were like owned by the theater. They weren't allowed to independently decide, I wanna do this project with this company, this project with this company. Yeah, the theater basically owned them and said, no, you only do the projects that our company says. And we basically determine what you work on, what you're gonna get paid. Your pay doesn't change based on your popularity because we have you under contract for, like they would have contracts for decades. So people couldn't get out of it. It was really awful. The actors have finally gotten out of that. But I think a lot of the directors and writers remain in a similar situation where
Taina Brown she/hers (17:45.561)
Yeah. Yeah.
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:56.72)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:05.371)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:12.834)
They don't have any ownership. Like they basically have to just say, yeah, you get my thing. You get to pay me what you want for this project I'm doing. And it doesn't matter if it makes a billion dollars. I get this amount of money. Right. And so he's trying to lead this. Yeah, it's really awful. It's very capitalist. It's very much about protecting corporate interests. And so Ryan Kugler, though, said after I was like, wow, that's an amazing deal. I can't believe he got that because the studio, all the CEO executives are like framing the story in this way that it never happens. And he was like, it happens all the time.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:23.328)
Yeah, yeah, it's very static.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:41.327)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:41.358)
They just don't want you to know that it happens. So he was trying to say, and they were making it a big deal because he was a black man. And I guess maybe it doesn't happen as much for black writers, black directors, but he's like, this happens a lot. So my impression is that it's been happening. They don't want people to know. And they especially don't want the people that they know that they think they can control to know. So anyway, I just think it's important to talk about that and that it paid off for him. I mean, this is a movie that's making a lot of money, has gotten almost universally glowing reviews.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:47.12)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:55.239)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:59.942)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:08.566)
It's a movie that will be around for a long time and I have a feeling, right? And that reverting those, that control back to him is huge. So good on him.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:08.656)
Yeah.
for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17.529)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, good on him for sure. I mean, I feel like the movie obviously is personal for him as a black man, as a black writer and creative and director. I feel like it's, it also feels very personal to just most black people in this country specifically. mean, black people, think everywhere, but specifically here in the U.S. because it takes place here in the U.S. and it's about the history of black people here in the U.S.
And I just love the role. It's not my favorite Ryan Coogler movie, but I love... Black Panther is my favorite, like, by far.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:54.638)
Black Panther or what do you like? Yeah, but I think tell me if I'm wrong. I'd like that was a property that existed I think he probably took it from there and but since I think this one was more deeply personal because I believe it was his yeah Right, but obviously the man has a pattern of doing yeah pattern
Taina Brown she/hers (20:02.305)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was his. Yeah, it was his. Yeah, yeah. Black Panther is like most intellectual property. Yeah, really great movies. Yeah, yeah. This movie felt like the persistence of Black joy despite everything else and how that Black joy looks different for everybody.
Like it doesn't look one way for an entire group of people. And so, and a lot of that joy is found through creativity and through music. I will also say just going back to the horror thing, like I've always been a fan of vampire movies. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:45.868)
didn't know it was vampiric until I started reading some of the things and I still don't know much because I haven't read anything really in depth. But the vampiric thing comes up very early in anything about it. So hopefully that's not a big giveaway because I didn't realize and I'm not a vampiric person, but I'm still I'm still curious. I do think it's interesting to see that it's made that much money. I mean, huge amounts of money compared to almost any other original concept movie out there. Right. And it is very black centric.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:49.646)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:04.833)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:10.17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14.422)
It is not only black centric in that the cast is black or that the director and it's like it is about the black experience, as you said. And so when people in different industries try to talk about those things don't sell, this is why we do, so much is this sort of black on the periphery. It's like these moments, and it's the same thing for Black Panther and the fucking numbers that made.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:24.462)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:36.249)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:39.917)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:43.074)
That is a lie that they tell us, right? It is a lie to say that movies about, I think it's important to say about the black experience, yes, but also movies about old people. Like we don't see those, then those movies that have, what's her name? Jane Fonda and whatever, like the book club and all those, those have made a ton of money. mean, movies about queer characters, they make money. It is not that they won't make money. It's that the theaters are trying to, I mean, the studios are very much a system. Hollywood is a system in the same way of all our other systems. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:44.452)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:52.1)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:57.006)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:02.062)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:07.683)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:10.424)
I just think it's interesting and important to notice that like this movie is not made for about white people. And there's no way it got to 350 million globally if there weren't white people going to see it, right? White people will see movies about the black experience and enjoy them. You know, that can happen. And it doesn't just have to be about black pain.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:20.815)
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:31.199)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's what makes this movie really unique, that there's Black pain, but there's also Black joy. And there were a lot of white people. There were a lot of black people in the theater when we went to see it, Melo and I, but there were also a of white people. And there were a few scenes where I was just like, it sucks to be a white person in this theater right now, because I can't imagine how awkward this is for them. Huh?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:52.915)
Maybe that's good for them, right? Is that maybe it's good for them?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:58.058)
It is, it is. Not saying it's not, but I was just like, I would not want to be them right now. Because this is, if I were white right now and I was sitting here watching this in a room full of black people, I would feel hella awkward. yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also, there's also, God, I don't want to give too much away. I'm trying to think how to say this without doing any spoilers. I don't think this is a spoiler, but like some of the vampires are white.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:09.195)
Mmm. Well now you know I'm intrigued. I guess I gotta see this movie even though I'm scared.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:16.642)
I'll give a lot away.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:28.718)
but not from the South. And so there's also just kind of like this.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:36.222)
Taina, that speaks so much to me, to the mythology that white folks have about the Civil War and North and South and the beliefs that I think many people hold about white saviorism. yeah, I mean, haven't again, I haven't seen movies. I'm not exactly sure. But my guess is that's probably what that's meant to bring up for people. And I hope it gets people questioning and thinking a bit, right? Because, mean, this is so funny. So kind of related. But because I think about the mythology of Abraham Lincoln.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:42.382)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:48.151)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:52.322)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:04.14)
and the ways that we have treated him as this almost like saint and savior and hero. And while the actions that resulted slowly in the end of slavery were important and his role in that shouldn't be denied, to pretend that this was altruism and his true beliefs and, you know, he was just doing this as some big savior, it's just not true, right? Like it is about the...
Taina Brown she/hers (24:07.768)
Savior, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:27.299)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:28.82)
winds of change. was about it's the same way people show up now deciding, am I going to support trans folks or not based on polling? Right. Like it's really ultimately a lot of what that was about. And so to pretend that, you know, he was this like savior is is not true. And it makes me think, too. My son just recently said to me something about George Washington having teeth that weren't real. And he said, did you know they made them out of bones? And I said, I did. And he said, animal bones. And I said, baby, we have to have a conversation.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:36.001)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:41.986)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:55.599)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:57.55)
Because I was like, where are you learning this, my love? And I said, well, buddy, this is I'm glad you talked to me. I'm glad you told me that because now we have a chance to have a real conversation. I said that that is it is true that he made teeth that that a lot of not just Washington, but a lot of people at that time were making teeth because their teeth would fall out. They didn't have dental care then very much. And I said, but those those bones were not animal bones. They were human bones. They were made from slaves. They were made not slaves bones, but slaves teeth. I mean, he they used slaves teeth.
And he was like, wow, did. I, so I'm asking him where he learned that and he couldn't remember. So I don't know if it was online or at school, but I'm like, if you're learning at the school, I need to call your principal and have a conversation because we need, this is where truth matters, right? Because when we start to lionize these people as something other than real humans, like, and I know why we do it. And I, you see the myth making happening in real time now too, where it's like, can we acknowledge the parts of someone?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:36.033)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:41.355)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:46.444)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:51.105)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:55.79)
This makes me think of Michael Jackson or any of the people we've talked before about problematic people. Can we acknowledge the parts of someone that were beneficial to society, that were positive, that were good, that we like, while also recognizing the parts that were flawed? Because all of us are humans, like, I mean, Mother Teresa, the Pope, anyone, we're all humans. And we all make mistakes. We all do things wrong. We all...
Taina Brown she/hers (25:58.967)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:10.732)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:15.637)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:20.662)
often act in accordance to the times that we are living that upon reflection may not have been the way we would want to show up if we were alive 100 years later or whatever. And it just makes me sad that like we feel this need to do that. And I love things that help to give people, the average person sitting in that theater, maybe take a moment to like, like if it causes them to think a little bit.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:28.821)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:43.347)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. They weren't from the north. They weren't from the north.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:44.174)
If people like it might be a leap to think that every person in that theater could make the leap to understanding that those white vampires from the North represent something. But yeah, I love that.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:56.334)
thought you said some of, okay. Well then nevermind. Ooh. Okay. Well now I feel like you can't give much away, right? Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:58.06)
They just weren't from the South. They just weren't from the South. Yeah. I can't give anything more than that away. Because I feel like it's a plot point that is just, it's a really deep, there's not, they don't go into it too much in the movie, but it's a really deep plot point that you can just talk about for hours. So I don't.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:21.88)
Well, let's just say, if they were from the North, would have been better suited to everything I just said, but still.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:25.886)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But along the lines of what you said, I think it's still where they are from and the context of that, like it still fits with what you were saying about how like, yes, there are, people are complicated. People are incredibly nuanced, right? And so the way that our culture, especially here in the US, we have to like put a singular hero on a pedestal, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:36.023)
Okay, good.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:55.308)
without really contextualizing their entire experience, their entire life. Like there's this need for creating this mythology around history, around people. Like it makes me think of things such like, things like manifest destiny, right? Like things like the hero's journey, you know, all of this that it's just like the American dream. Yeah, which is just, I was about to say utter bollocks because I've been reading too much fan fiction.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:15.404)
The American dream, even.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:24.443)
I'm watching British stuff all the time, so we could totally start dipping into that. That's great.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:24.672)
But it's just bullshit.
But yeah, it's it's bullshit. It's bullshit, right? Not that it's not important, but it doesn't give the whole story. It doesn't tell the whole story. And when you don't have all the pieces of information that you need, like how can you complete the puzzle if you don't have all the pieces together? So yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:32.215)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:50.542)
Well, it lacks nuance and critical thinking. And then we wonder why people, our kids grow into adults who lack the ability to see nuance, have critical thinking. I kind of wouldn't mind shifting here just a little bit because it makes me think of something that's happening in real time. When this comes out, it'll be this coming weekend, which is Trump's big parade that he's throwing for himself, his birthday military parade. I don't know how much you know about the news that's happening, but it's coming on, yeah, it's best that you don't, but it's coming up on June 14th on Saturday.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:57.257)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:12.652)
my god, I don't know anything about it.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:19.362)
that he is throwing this military parade like you see in China and, you know, in Russia and every dictatorship, you see these massive military parades that he's doing in Washington, D.C. You're nearby. Maybe you can go protest. But also, just so people know, on that same day, there's still time to look for your in your region and sign up for the no king's rallies. People are having a no king's rally at the same time that this person is trying to myth make himself into this king figure, this.
idolized figure who has this military parade for his birthday. And those are going to be going on everywhere. There's one here in St. Louis that I'm planning to attend with my son and my husband as a way to say, first of all, I will give that parade zero ounces of my attention because I reject it wholly. And two, I want to show up and use my voice to say this is still, barely hanging by a thread, but still a country that does not have kings.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:01.503)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:13.558)
or dictators. This is meant to be a democracy and democracy does not look like that. So I just want to throw that out for people because that's it's that happening in real time. This is Trump trying to do what we as a collective whole have done to the likes of Washington and Lincoln. He's trying to do it in real time for himself to turn him into this beloved person, this beloved king that everyone wants to see this amazing parade for down, you know, the street that was formerly called Black Lives Matter.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:13.737)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:18.592)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:27.165)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:41.516)
I know if it's on the same street, it probably is because it's right there in front of the camera. Yeah. So, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:43.731)
It probably is, yeah, it probably is. You know what that makes me think of? That parable of the king who wasn't wearing any clothes.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:50.722)
can't wait.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:54.358)
Yes, the emperor has no clothes. Yes. Trump is very much that.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:56.298)
Yeah, it's like you're just like parading down the street. fuck, my God.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:03.842)
I'm hoping no one shows up. It's much like his first inauguration where he said there were millions of people and in fact there were like thousands. Of course, some of that I think was weather related, but still. Like I'm hopeful that the distaste for what's happening is strong enough that if there are people, it's protests other than the core group of people that will be there no matter what. But just the very fact that it's happening and that there's not an uproar. Which speaking of...
Taina Brown she/hers (31:21.842)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:31.126)
Another thing, I don't want to get too political, but I'm still, it's just coming to my head is I don't know this, this last week as we're recording this, it made almost no news. So you probably didn't hear about it. Cause I barely did. Jimmy Kimmel did a, I'll try to find it and link it in the show notes. Jimmy Kimmel did a little rant. You can see it on Instagram reels talking about this, but Trump in the middle of the night, probably while he was sitting there having a shit on his gold toilet was posting to his true social bullshit place and said that Joe Biden.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:33.313)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (32:00.238)
since 2020 has not been a real person. Joe Biden died in 2020. For real, he posted, this is the sitting US president posting that the last president died in 2020. And since then, the person that we saw existing as president was clones and robots. Now, I'm not sure if he understands clones and robots are two different things. I don't think he does, because I don't think he understands much.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:05.29)
Oh my God. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:23.16)
So it's clones and robots that we have seen since then. While simultaneously being all excited about Jake Tapper's book and everyone on the right talking about how that person that apparently was a clone and a robot had no brain left because he was deep into dementia. That's what they've been talking about since. Because Jake Tapper's book, if you haven't seen anything about it, which you're so lucky if you haven't, and I need to watch less news.
But what I say was all about this, how his cabinet had been hiding the fact that he had been having a lot of dementia in the last couple of years of his presidency. So while the right clings onto that to say, look at that, he's also saying, oh, but that person with that dementia wasn't actually Joe Biden, it was a clone in a robot. So anyway, apparently.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:00.328)
It was a clone in a robot with dementia.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:05.262)
This is who's leading us and who's trying to lionize himself. And yes, that is exactly why he is an emperor with no clothes, because he cannot see how ridiculous he looks while the rest of us look at it and say, are you fucking serious? Can you imagine if Joe Biden had said that? If Obama had said that about another president?
Taina Brown she/hers (33:05.479)
Make it make fucking sense.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:21.674)
my god. my god. He would be fucking impeached.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:25.678)
And it doesn't even make the news, Taina. Nobody's covering it. And if they had, most of the headlines were something like, he makes a outlandish or a, he fuels, what was it? It something like he fuels controversy or he fuels a conspiracy theory. And it's like, not a, right, that's not a conspiracy theory to say that the president for the last four years was a clone and robot. and or? I cloned a robot? I don't know. I don't know again.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:41.703)
Not he's out of his fucking mind.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:53.758)
No, that's not a conspiracy theory. That's just fucking insane. The man has lost his mind. He's eight. He's what? Seventy eight, almost nine seventy nine. It's like an 80 year old man. If you're an 80 year old dad, if my father in law was saying those things and sometimes it's not far off, I go, he's lost it. He's in dementia. Like he's like we're getting here to the end, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (34:10.427)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, we need to make a doctor's appointment and look at end of life care.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15.982)
And it's one of those where you start to pat their arm and say, it's okay, I'm here for you. We're gonna figure this out, right? Like not go to make decisions about how we weaponize nuclear weapons.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:21.576)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:25.51)
Let's, yeah, yeah, let's give them the nuclear war cards. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:29.59)
No. So anyway, just sharing a few things. So please look up the No Kings rallies in your area. If there is one on June 14th, try to make an effort to be there because I think the more of us that show up in the same way that there were those amazing rallies last month was the beginning of May, I believe, which I went to. that was really like, again, even if it's just to make you remember that you're not alone in thinking what's going on is crazy and not OK, that's worth it. But also.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:40.903)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:55.742)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:56.504)
Hopefully, maybe some mainstream news will actually cover it as an alternative to what's happening that day that is.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:00.558)
Yeah, to what's actually, yeah, that's my hope that like the news covers the no kings rallies and not the actual.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:12.319)
Except they won't.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:12.508)
birthday celebration of a homicidal maniac.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:15.286)
They probably won't. They probably won't. Yeah. can I, one other news item? Well, only because I just, I just watched this and I don't if people saw it, but Greta Thunberg is on her way on a giant, he's on a vessel. Headed out to Gaza to try to deliver humanitarian aid. It's the second time that they, humanitarian aid. It's the second time they've done this. The first time they were shot at and had to leave.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:19.836)
Yeah
Becky Mullink here.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:29.356)
yeah, she's on the Gazan fleet, yeah, for the food.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:43.118)
They're hoping, you they're trying to make news so that maybe there will be some pressure to allow them in. And I just look at that young woman and I know there people have mixed feelings about the way she shows up in the world and whatnot. Like, okay, again, can we look at the both end of a person? But I look at her and I think she is young. Is she 19, 20? I don't even know if she's 20 yet. She's so young. She's a young woman who has spent the bulk of her life, even like since she was what, 12?
Taina Brown she/hers (35:56.75)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:04.677)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:10.257)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:10.294)
in a spotlight, a global spotlight, right? Who is, she said, I have this platform for whatever reason. And she was really humble in the way she was talking about this with, I think it was PBS, because I'm sure no one else is covering it, One of the mainstream media. But in her saying like, I have this platform for some reason, like she was not saying like, I'm the greatest like Trump. She's just like, for whatever reason, here I am. I have a platform and it's my responsibility to use that platform and to find ways to
Taina Brown she/hers (36:24.246)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:39.19)
try to create difference with that platform. And I just wish if we could see more folks like that, who would show up and take a stand instead of remaining silent about what's happening in Palestine and to Palestinians, because it is as bad as it's ever been. And tomorrow will be even worse because on the daily, it keeps getting worse and worse. It is horrific. It is hard to look at. It's hard to pay attention to. And yet people with platforms and honestly, anyone, I don't have Grata Thunberg's platform.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:43.927)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (36:54.585)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:00.945)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (37:08.504)
but I have a tiny little platform. I think we all need to use that platform to make that statement. And I wish we could see more folks of like the, I don't know why he's coming to mind, Tom Cruise, probably because I just watched a Mission Impossible because I was bored. You know, those kinds of folks, like these top folks who have giant platforms, if we could see them doing similar things, I think there could be a change that happens here, but people are terrified because of the antisemitic attacks that have been happening in the US, which we condemn.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:12.598)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:30.79)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:35.074)
which are wrong, which are awful, but it doesn't change what's happening there. And I wish that more people were willing to stand up and say something.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:35.929)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, anti-Palestinian genocide is not being anti-Semitic. and.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:47.2)
Yes. While Israel has done a great job and the Zionists have done a great job of making people believe that, it's not true. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:55.001)
It's not, it's different. It's different. It's not the same thing. And there are a lot of Jewish people, rabbinic Jewish people, non-religious Jewish people who have been saying that since the beginning. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:02.508)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:10.656)
There are religious Jewish people too. mean, there are people who for them, their Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion, right? Like it is both of those that are saying, I cannot support what Israel is doing. And to separate Israel from Judaism, we have to be capable of, yeah, and too many people seem incapable of making that distinction. And I understand why, and this is complicated shit to talk about.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:24.529)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's two different entities.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:34.939)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:39.586)
but you cannot see what's happening there. And if you haven't looked, I think you have to at least a little to know, because if you're not willing to speak out, then I think you should have to see what's happening to say, can I do this and not speak out?
Taina Brown she/hers (38:41.553)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And just because something is complicated doesn't mean you don't talk about it. It doesn't mean you don't try to parse it out. And I think that's what a lot of people are afraid of. They're like, oh, well, it's complicated and there's so much history, so let's just leave it alone. And it's like, that doesn't help. That doesn't help.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04.322)
Yep. And I've been there. So I just want to admit, like, I get that because this is not like, this is just started happening. Like, this is a centuries, maybe even millennia old problem, right? This region of the world, complicated feelings around Jerusalem and who who has like for whom this land is actually meant. And all of these things have been around a really long time. So this is not a new issue. It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:07.525)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:17.223)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:26.342)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:30.2)
there has never felt like there's been an answer that seems to work. So like, I get it because I feel that feeling of like, I'm not Jewish, I'm not Palestinian, I'm not Muslim. I don't, that is not where I live. Like this doesn't feel like my war in a way. Like it doesn't feel like my battle to be injecting myself into. And yet I am a human. And so I have to at least say, I have to be able to say, what's happening to these humans is not okay. I don't care for the, you know, all that other stuff is not for me to decide perhaps.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:33.991)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:43.207)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:53.169)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:56.846)
I don't even think you have to be anti-Zionist necessarily, although I think maybe, I don't know, maybe you do. But I am.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:01.905)
I think, no, I think you do as a former Zionist, as a former Zionist, because I used to be a Zionist, I will say, yes, you have to be anti-Zionist because Zionism is predicated on the belief that that, that Israel is, yeah, yeah, that Israel is an entity that should replace Palestinian life on that land.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:09.187)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:15.71)
destruction of the Palestinian people. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:23.03)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, good then. Because I mean, I'm anti-Zionist, but I wasn't sure like, again, these are such complicated issues. It's like, I'm not even. So, okay, you have to be anti-Zionist to be able to say this. But I think ultimately, just knowing if you're a human and you can see what's happening to these humans, half of which are children, children, or more than half are children. Children don't decide. There are babies. There are young kids that are literally starving to death, freezing to death.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:26.502)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:40.036)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:51.726)
They don't make the decisions about what's happening in that region. They don't even know their religion yet, right? They may be told what they are, but they don't understand any of that. They're humans. And if you can look at human suffering in that way and say, yeah, well, but Israel deserves to exist or whatever it is, I think you got to check your values, man. Like you really got to check in with yourself. And what does that say? Oof, that got heavy, sorry.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:59.078)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:02.662)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:11.3)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's fine. Yeah, I was, actually I had a conversation with my wife last week about being a former Republican and she was shocked. And I was like, well, what do you expect? I was like evangelical Christian.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:30.318)
Hold up. I didn't know that about you. I knew you were evangelical Christian too, but I didn't really make the link that you would also be Republican. I thought maybe you were one of those wackadoodle people who are like, claimed to be a Democrat while being an evangelical Christian. So wait a minute. Did you, have you voted for like a Republican for president?
Taina Brown she/hers (41:34.416)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:42.181)
No, no, was, I think the.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:48.282)
yeah, I wrote it for Bush.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:51.736)
That's amazing to me, Taina. I didn't know that. I'm shocked too. You people, we can change. You can change. You voted for Trump and you think, right. Because I think so many people keep holding on to the support for Trump and this almost like the stubborn, well, I voted that way. So now I gotta like somehow find a way to like convince myself my vote. But you can change. I mean, look how far you've come,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:52.204)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
It's completely possible to change.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:05.55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:11.636)
Make it work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can change. Yeah. Yeah. The first time I deviated from voting Republican, I think was when Obama ran.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:23.214)
Mmm. And was that and I don't know, maybe I shouldn't make this leap. Tell me if I'm way off here. But did that have to do more with his being black or because of his because you had made a leap in your beliefs by then?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:37.22)
I believed in his policies more. I think that was the first time I considered not being a single issue voter. Because here's the thing you have to remember about abortion. Yes, that's the only issue that matters for evangelical Christians or Christian nationalists. It's abortion. It's always abortion. It's always abortion. And it's more than that. But if you ask them, like that's...
Becky Mollenkamp (42:48.748)
Was your single issue abortion before that? Of course. Of course.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:00.899)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:06.656)
Except now, I think now is abortion and trans issues because the right has so successfully made that.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:06.947)
That's the gateway. Yes, yeah, yeah. Because it's family, right? It's marriage and family. And so abortion and trans issues threatens the institution of what a family or marriage is supposed to look like. The traditional, yeah, according to biblical beliefs, right? But Obama was just such a charismatic speaker.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:23.681)
traditional family.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:36.502)
and such a, and not just charismatic, but just, he's just an excellent communicator. amazing. Yeah. So much better than the Republican candidate. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, I remember being intrigued by, you know, by having heard some of his stuff. And then one of my friends who was also in the church with me was like, what do you think about Obama?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:42.018)
Yeah, his messaging was amazing. That's where they excelled.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:49.538)
mumbling, mumbling Bush and then who is. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:05.988)
And I was like, oh, we can talk about this. OK. And I was like, I kind of like him.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:10.964)
even though he was pro-choice. That was something you were able to finally look past because of his charisma?
Taina Brown she/hers (44:16.75)
I think at that point I was also, I had reached a tipping point in my belief system because one of my close friends in the church had been sexually assaulted by a pastor in the church. So we're getting really heavy here again. so, yes, yeah. So I think at that point I was, whereas I had been so insulated,
Becky Mollenkamp (44:33.4)
Yeah, but no, but that it's that personal experience that yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:46.628)
And I would say even brainwashed before that, where I was just go along with whatever. I think at this point I was like, wait, where does personal agency fit in here? When do we get to make decisions for ourselves, especially about our bodies? Because someone who I love, her body was just violated by someone that we trusted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:07.219)
And if she were to become pregnant, would you force that person to have that baby?
Taina Brown she/hers (45:12.961)
Yeah, we trusted this person. We loved this person like a family member. I mean, I was at this pastor's house like three or four days a week, babysitting, family dinners, vacations. Like it was just, was earth shattering. And so I think by the time Obama came around, my belief system was starting to somewhat.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:41.206)
It takes that personal knowledge so often the like, who was it that said you can't hate people that you can look in the eye or something like that? I'm horrible. But there was somebody who said something about that. Like basically you can't hate people when you're talking to them, when you know them, when you see them, when you're looking in the eye, hate doesn't happen, right? It doesn't happen on a one-to-one level. Hate happens on this like where you can become, when you can make a person into a, right, when you make them from subject into object and into this like,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:48.835)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:55.478)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:03.779)
when you're detached.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:08.024)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:08.824)
category of person. So I hate trans people until I meet a trans person and realize they're a human, have a human experience and they just want to live. They just want to love, right? They just want the same things I do. And when you meet a person, they become a person, they become a subject and not an object. And that's so hard because how do we solve for that when I can't fucking be around these people to be their like their example of a
Taina Brown she/hers (46:15.426)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:23.319)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:30.787)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:34.348)
a woman who's had an abortion, to be their example of a woman who is, you know, whatever, successful, independent, whatever, to be an example of what a bisexual woman or pansexual woman can be. Like, I can't, it's hard for me to do that, but yet part of the change.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:41.559)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:50.306)
But you don't need to because there are people in those communities that are those things, right? I think some people just refuse to let go of their hate.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:54.914)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:00.91)
Well, that's true, too. But I also think some people just still live in their bubble. I mean, I honestly think they just don't. don't know so many people who are filled with hate because I don't know if you've ever seen some of those shows that they'll do where they'll take these like neo-Nazi people even and enter like have them be in experience one on one with the person that they hate with a Jewish person, with a gay person, whatever it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:06.466)
See ya.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:23.018)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:25.078)
the way they soften, the way they start to question things is so different because it is that one-on-one experience. But there is still, I guess you're right, there are still those people who can say like, well, I hate gays, but not this gay, right? Like, yeah, yeah. So that does happen. Yeah, yeah. I do think more power to those of you who are able to do that work. I think it goes back to the Deepa Iyer.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:28.575)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:36.286)
not this person. Yeah, you're the exception. Yeah. Yeah. And then it becomes tokenism, you know? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:51.278)
social change map of like, need people who are able to do all kinds of different pieces of activism. And I do think that is a form of activism, being able to be in a room with people who have hate in their hearts for you and to be able to show them your humanity. That is, I can't do it. I find that exceptionally challenging, but I think those who can, you're doing the Lord's work, right? Like, and I truly mean that is not a non-Christian, but everything I understand about Jesus is that's the kind of work he did, right? And then for Christians to
Taina Brown she/hers (47:54.818)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:04.257)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:08.768)
Yeah, me either.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:14.23)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:19.584)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:20.814)
paint him in this other way is amazing because he's the one who would sit and have dinner with beggars and whores or whatever, you know, they called, can't remember the phrases they use.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:26.005)
Yeah. Yeah. He was fucking Palestinian.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:31.34)
Yeah. no, you better not say that.
Not allowed to say that, he was a Jew, remember?
A Palestinian Jew?
Taina Brown she/hers (48:41.835)
Palestinian Jew. There are Palestinian Jews.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:45.806)
It's very possible, Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:48.031)
Like that's the thing, like we're, when you talk about Israel and Palestine and Judaism, like these are different, these exist in different categories. we're, yeah. No, no, it didn't. It didn't. It didn't. If you look, if you look at like the old school Bibles that have the maps in the back of them, it's Palestine.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:57.902)
Yeah. And in different times, mean, Israel didn't even exist when Jesus was alive. Israel's only existed for what, 60 years or something? 50 or where are we at on there? Yeah, it's been 50 years. They're a little over.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:19.051)
So late.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:22.963)
What? Where's your argument? Like, for people who...
Becky Mollenkamp (49:26.146)
And can you not love? Can you not believe in Palestine's right to exist and in Palestine, Palestinians existing as humans and honoring that and also deeply love our Jewish friends and believe that they have a right to exist exactly like I just am always blown away that people can't hold those both of those feelings and and and again, I you know, I do feel like I have to honor the fact that I am not Jewish. I am not Palestinian.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:40.713)
You can!
Becky Mollenkamp (49:53.26)
I am not Muslim. have like I just there's no part of that. That is my story. And so I do want to be clear that I understand that. So it's easy for me on the outside to say those things. And yet on the outside, it does feel so simple and yet it's obviously so complicated. So.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:58.092)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:01.924)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:08.096)
Yeah, well because Israel is a religious ethnostate and the reason why it's so hard, especially here in the... Yes, yes. It's not about geography. It's about religion.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:19.288)
Like the ultimate religion. Like I don't think there's anything else like it on the... Other than maybe the Vatican, the Vatican City, is the... But beyond that, I don't think there's anything else that comes even close to Israel as an ethno.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:31.59)
No. Christian nationalism is the thing that comes close to it. Christian nationalism.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:35.746)
Yeah, but that doesn't have, but it doesn't have what they have there, which is an entire country that is literally that was formed, created, preserved, continues to be solely for the purpose of the preservation of a religion. Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:39.357)
It doesn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:46.194)
Zionism. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's why it's so hard for some people here in the US to deconstruct the idea of something like Israel because Christian nationalism is so rampant here. Why it doesn't exist on the same plane.
That doesn't mean that Christian nationalists don't want it to exist on the same plane as it does here.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:10.99)
For sure. mean, Trump now wants to create his own golden dome. Like they have the iron dome over Israel. like, mean, he's very much not only pro, not only a Zionist, not only very pro-Israel, like he looks at what's happening there and says, why aren't we doing that here? Like, why can't we do that same thing here for Christians and creating this, making America go from what it was truly built on into this idea of a true Christian nationalist state.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:26.965)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:37.148)
He's not even a fucking Christian.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:39.436)
He's disgusting, right? I know. I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:42.824)
If anyone's a fucking clone robot, it's him.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:46.808)
Well, he certainly doesn't exemplify any Christian values I've ever heard of. And it is hilarious to me and the dissonance that it takes for these Christian, these true evangelical kind of Christians to continue to support him, knowing that he flagrantly his entire life has shown up in a way that disregards everything they hold dear. There's nothing about him that is family oriented and for them to say like, yeah, yeah, we know all that and it's okay. Like it's baffling how we got.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:08.379)
No, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:13.575)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even identify as a Christian anymore, but as a former Christian, I'm like, the fuck not, if I was.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:16.501)
Anyway, I know what-
Becky Mollenkamp (52:22.434)
Yeah, I mean, at least you can look at your, you know, your time as a Republican, while I'm sure you look at that now and be like, boy. But those folks were more of what we typically think of as that family party. Like they were more representative of those values. Mitt Romney, as an example, is definitely somebody who is that, like, even though he's not Christian in the way you were Christian, but you know, he's deep into his Mormonism and his faith. And he is certainly very much.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:36.809)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:44.733)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:50.72)
about family. I don't agree with him in any way, but I can see where someone like you could would have supported that. And at least it made sense. It was in alignment with the values you thought you had or that you did have at the time. You look at this now and it's just like the dissonance is amazing because it's like how it doesn't add up at all. It's like me now saying like, and I see this starting to happen a bit on the left.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:58.045)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:04.423)
It's so far. It's in a completely different universe. Completely different universe.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:14.232)
where the left is moving so far towards the center because they're saying like, well, at least George Bush or those types, right? The Romney types are more aligned with where I'm at than this guy. But that to me is the same dissonance. It's like, how do you suddenly start moving that direction thinking that's the answer, moving farther from your values as the answer? That's no better than those folks who are moving farther from their real values as the answer.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:20.275)
Mm-hmm. All right, that's bad.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:26.203)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, no, no, I... We need to keep our distance as far away as possible and not move closer.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:45.122)
Yeah, I am. I just posted today on Blue Sky that like making decisions based on polling, based on popularity, based on focus groups is cowardice, right? Rather than basing it on values, what is right, right? It may not be popular to say that, you know, trans folks deserve to play sports in the and use bathrooms based on the gender that they identify with. That may not be popular, but it's right.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:01.35)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:09.959)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:11.062)
It aligns with the value set that we have around humanity. And I want to see leaders who are willing to make decisions based on that, to show that bravery, to say, this may not be the thing that's going win the popularity contest, but it's what's right. It's what's right for humanity. I'm ready to go beyond where we're at now, because if the same thing with slavery, if you were looking at a time in history, the polls would have said, well, then I better support slavery, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (54:24.615)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:35.389)
Yep. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:36.59)
You don't do it because it's wrong. I am like, we're beyond AOC. I mean, there are a handful of them. You know, there are some people, Maxwell Frost. mean, there are some really amazing, especially younger people. Bernie is not younger, but there are some amazing people. But on the whole, where are they? Where are the left progressive? What? You know, in our country, you pretty much you can't win unless you're Democrat. So where are they? The ones that are showing up with that level of bravery? They're cowards and it's gross.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:38.91)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:43.231)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:52.948)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (55:02.11)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are. There's not enough of them. And then the ones that are there are, like you said, they're cowards or, you know, or they don't have any power. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:13.346)
Well, the ones that are there don't have any power. You Maxwell Frost, for anyone who doesn't follow Maxwell Frost, he was when he was voted in, he's in Florida, hard place to be. And he was like the youngest. was the first Gen Z. That's the one after millennial, right? I think he was the first Gen Z person elected into the House. So he's very young. He shows up. He's out there fighting. He's saying the right things. He believes in the right things. He's voting the right way. But he has no power. He's a junior, very junior senator. I mean, representative.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:26.557)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:37.66)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:42.818)
The coalition that they have that is that progressive, the AIPAC, which is an organization that supports Israel as a state, Zionist organization, they continue to funnel millions and millions into voting out anyone else that is a part of that pack. Cori Bush, who was my representative, voted out, was taken out by this pack and their money. They flooded our city with tons of money, our county with tons of money to get her out. And she was one of those very vocal pro-Palestinian people.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:49.551)
Israel, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:59.207)
Voted out, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:11.81)
There's no way for them to gain power. And so we're stuck and it's frustrating until more people like demanded of people. So show up at the no Kings rally. That's one way to hopefully at least show some support for change. Okay. We've gotten so long and it was, I don't even know that this was, this was not what we were going to do, but it was no, it was good.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:17.084)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:24.128)
Yeah. Yeah.
This is not what we were going to talk about at all, but here we are. We are where we are.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:35.392)
Maybe I just needed a good rant. We were going to talk about kind some of my feelings I'm having around productivity and stuff like that. But maybe I just needed to get some of this shit off my chest and maybe that will help me feel a little better because I've been feeling kind of down. And I do think a lot of this stuff that's turning in me as part of it. Yeah. So maybe getting it out will help. So thank you for listening.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:43.847)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:48.911)
It's winning on you. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we're still going to have that talk, by the way.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:56.622)
Okay, well, we'll see. No, I'm kidding. That's fine. We can. We can. And soon we're to have an interview. We're just spacing them out because we've already recorded them. So we had Stella on, Stella Gold on the last episode. And I don't know when we'll release it next week, week after. we're trying to put a little space between guests, but we also have Krishna. Krishna, I can't remember her last name, you? Can I ask them that? I should ask. But anyway, we're having Krishna on. And that was a great conversation too. So that'll be coming up soon.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:11.867)
Yeah. Yeah.
always mispronounce it so I don't want to mispronounce it. But our friend Krishna, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:26.716)
Yes it will.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:27.758)
All right, thank you all for listening. Thanks, Taina.