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In this episode of Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works, Gene Tavernetti talks with first-grade teacher and literacy advocate Virginia Quinn-Mooney about the Science of Reading, teacher learning, and the work of bringing research-backed instruction into classrooms. Virginia shares how the launch of Sold a Story helped prompt the Science of Reading Virtual Happy Hour, a community that connected teachers with influential literacy advocates and created space for honest professional learning.
The conversation explores classroom practice, teacher collaboration, advocacy, and the tension between evidence-informed instruction and the systems that resist meaningful change. Virginia and Gene return to a practical hope: teachers can model effective instruction every day and help more students experience the teaching they deserve.
Added/created/modified by Codex on 2026.11.04 00:00 on ombee.
Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.
Speaker: Welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network, shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows at bepodcastnetwork.com.
I am Gene Tavernetti, the host for this podcast, and my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once, and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords, only stuff that works.
Speaker 2: I'm extremely honored to have as my guest today, Virginia Quinn Mooney. Virginia has been a first grade teacher for more than 20 years. Her entrance into the larger literacy community began when Sold a Story launched in 2022. As a teacher who knew what we were doing wasn't right, she had big feels, and she assured others as well, so she launched the Science of Reading Virtual Happy Hour because booze, booze just felt right and necessary for the moment.
It took off, and she hosted many teachers and influential advocates such as Kareem Weaver, Donna Hejtmanek, Natalie Wexler, Dr. Jan Hasbrouck, and Emily Hanford. Her efforts were featured in a bonus episode of Sold a Story. The doors to the Happy Hour are open for season two, and she invites you to join her, and Emily has already indicated that she'll be featuring it again in future endeavors.
Virginia proudly moderates the Facebook page, What I Should Have Learned in College. The latest several years have been dedicated to spreading the word about science of reading. She's appeared in many podcasts to discuss best classroom practice. She presents both natural- nationally and internationally at literacy conferences.
She has partnered with Melissa and Laurie to provide classroom videos to align to their current episodes. She is a consultant for the Goyan Foundation after her fellowship concluded. Virginia created the virtual forum, Teachers Teach Teachers, where she and other Goyan fellows invite teachers into their classrooms to learn effective research-backed strategies.
Most recently, Virginia has been awarded the 2026 NESE Global Science of Reading Teacher of the Year Award. I think you're going to enjoy Virginia and this episode
Speaker 3: Virginia, welcome to Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works. Gene, my pleasure. Well, I had at one time ... And if you've listened to my podcast before, you know that, uh, one of the things that I say in the introduction is that I want people to laugh at least once. And, uh, I had somebody, uh, respond to one of my podcasts, and they had a question, a respectful question with regard to, uh, uh, some content.
And then at the end of their question they said, "By the way, I've never laughed once- ... at any of your podcasts." She was my next guest. We got her. We got her. Well, wait. Gene, I just laughed. Yes. So w- somebody laughed just once, so mission accomplished. Well, right. And now we can move on. I guess, I guess, I guess.
But I'm looking for audience people. Oh, all right. I'm looking for audience people. Okay. So anyway, Virginia, God, what a, what a resume, what an introduction. Uh, you know, first grade teacher more than 20 years. But here's what was interesting to me, and, and, uh, it said that your entrance into the larger literacy community began when Sold a Story launched in 2022.
What, what was, what was happening with you internally as you listened to that, to that story, that podcast? Um, first, I love when people ask me questions about myself. It doesn't happen often enough. Yeah. Uh, I appreciate that question. And in my professional timeframe ... Well, all right, before I get to that part, so to, to back up, um, Emily Hanford's podcast, I, I'm almost certain the very first line of Sold a Story is- There were those that always knew, and there were those that were sold a story.
Speaker 4: Uh, y- y- you know, in other words, defining teachers who were buying into balanced literacy and those teachers who were like, "What the what?" Um, and I was 1,000% in the, "I always knew." Um, it just, it, it was so disjointed. It didn't make sense. I have said so many times, if you are using Post-It notes in reading instruction, like something is askew.
So in my classroom, I just, I, uh, you know, I just knew. Um, but there was nothing out there that was, that was confirming, other than colleagues, other than teacher friends, you know, that were confirming to me like, "Yeah, this is nuts. They're not reading. They're guessing, and they're looking at the picture, and they're relying on everything but the sounds and the letters."
Um, but you know, we're good do-bees and we have to do our job. But I, I was very vocal about it, and I would go to meet- uh, you know, PD, and I was like, "I don't understand. I don't know what MSV is. Isn't meaning semantic and, and," I can't... What the heck was the V? Thank God it's out of my mind at this point.
But I was like, doesn't it all boil down to they're not reading the word? Like, that's it. Um, and then Sold a Story came out, and like it... Well, actually before Sold a Story on Educ- Twitter, I had read one of her first, uh, articles that she ever wrote where the doors sort of blew open during COVID when this one mom, who herself was dyslexic, was watching her son online being given all of the teaching cop- well, I was gonna say reading strategies.
She gave herself coping strategies to pretend to be reading and to do everything but read the word 'cause she didn't have that ability. And she was like, "Of all that's good in this world, that's what they're giving my child who might be able to read." So I read that first article and I was like, "Huh, okay.
All right. I see you, girl." Like I, this is where my thought was. And then Sold a Story came out. And, uh, uh, the way that I think of it is always like, it was like the biggest na-na-na-na boo-boo that I've ever experienced to all the people that truly believed in, um, Teachers College and balanced literacy and everything else.
So once I heard that podcast, um, I sat so upright, and it was so I, I truly believe in education, in reading education or in reading instruction. It, it, in my lifetime, it's going to be the most influential thing, and it's going to be a part of history in college at some point. Um, but there's a really visceral, emotional response that I had to it, and I just remember thinking, "If I'm feeling this way, other people are feeling this way."
So I took it upon my self to reach out to Donna Hight Manick, who is the moderator, or I'm sorry, the originator of What I Should Have Learned in College, the Facebook page, which she's up to close to 300,000 members. So this thing has, you know, gone straight up. And I sent her a message, and I explained everything that I just explained to you, and I said, "I would like to..."
Again, who am I? I was just, like, one teacher in Connecticut who was listening to this podcast on her ride to work, but I just really felt so strongly that I was not alone. So I said to Donna, "I would really like to have a forum where teachers can come and just express how they're feeling and, and talk about, you know, where we came from."
Go ahead. Do you want to say- Okay, okay. Yes. I, I did- Yeah ... I did, I did want to say something, and it's exactly what you just said. So what were you doing before? I mean, I c- I haven't known you for long, but I just can't believe you, uh, just going along to get along. Uh- D- d- So, so what was your instruction like?
Speaker 3: You mean in my classroom with my first graders? In your, in your, in y- in your classroom with your first graders, yeah. So if somebody, if somebody were to watch your... Because I've, I've heard you talk on other podcasts about, you know, "Well, I read to my kids, and, and I have small groups, and, and w-" Didn't you read to your kids and have small groups before?
Speaker 4: I did, and actually, um, I was... I had to secretly teach them phonics, and that's what I was doing. Oh, okay. It was like, it was like in the veil of darkness I taught them phonics. How dare I? How dare I? But that's what I did. Because I, I truly... I, I just, again, some that I always knew, some that were sold a story.
O- one, one isn't better than the other. I d- And, and I never, ever want teachers that really fell into the, um, balanced literacy life, it's not fair that they feel bad about themselves, because it was pushed so hard. And the people that pushed it, I don't blame them either. Like, this is, this was so systemic, you know, in all of education.
We... Y- you learned it in college, so if you're learning it in college, it must be right. You know, I mean, it was just, it was way too big for so many people to actually even question it with all the- You know, the money that was put into it and the marketing that was put into it, and if, and, and if the district that's doing really well is doing it, well, then we better do it.
But, you know, were they? And, and what was it actually based in? But- Yeah ... um, yeah, I mean, either- So you, so, yeah. Go ahead. So you found this. You, you, you found this older story and it, and it's very affirming. Very, very affirming in what you said, and you contacted these folks that had, uh, you know, a legion of over 300,000, 300,000 followers.
Speaker 3: And- Right ... and then, and then kinda, kinda what's the next part of your story? Like you had, uh, I mean, you just mentioned, uh, Donna... Who did you mention who's on your, your Facebook group? Hie- Heidemanik, uh- Oh, Donna Heidemanik. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She's the, she's the brainchild of it all. Yeah. She's, she's the brainchild.
But you've had y- you've been rubbing shoulders, elbows, whatever parts of the body you rub, with, uh, uh, Emily, with Emily Hanford and, and folks, and you've had other discussions. So, so what have you learned from those, you know, as you've gotten larger in your, in your scope of reaching out to folks and...? It's a great question.
Speaker 4: Um, and it's hard to, uh, um... It's actually really hard to answer that simply. But if I were to answer it simply, I think what I have found is the importance of science and the importance of research. And- I, I, I think why balanced literacy won is because it was so, I always say sexy. I mean, of course that's stupid to refer to it that way, but it was so, like, um, attractive.
You know, I mean, to, to describe it like, you know, the kids are gonna discover and, and they're gonna get there in their own time. Like, how lovely, you know, as a parent to think like, "Oh, isn't that just so giving that they're gonna wait for my-" And, and, and they're gonna love reading, and they're gonna love- And they're gonna love reading, right Yeah And not only that, they're gonna read in a book nook.
I mean, if you have a book nook, how do we compete with a book nook? You know, but it's like... And I actually, I, I have a poster that I made and it says, "Y'all, science of reading has a book nook too. The only difference is our kids are reading in our book nook." Mm. And, you know, I as a child was not, um, I was not a successful reader.
I was a faux page-turner, and silent reading for me was daydreaming, and then I would think, "Oh, you know what? I haven't turned the page in a little bit," so I would turn the page. But since no one was reading with me, and since, like, nobody ever knew, and I would even do it... Like, my dad was so mad at me when he, when I got my report card, um, that he was like, "Well, you're gonna read all summer."
I was like, "Okay, I'll just fake turn the pages at home too," and that's, that's what I did. And, you know, so I, I know what it feels like to be that kid in the book nook. You know, I- To have that Yeah. I, I, I think that a lot of what happens in, in schools is adults thinking, "Boy, I wish I had, you know, I wish it had been like this for me."
Speaker 3: But they're looking at it from the perspective of already knowing how to do something. They're never looking at it- That's right ... you know? And so, and so I think this, this idyllic, y- you know, nostalgic thinking was the substitute for the science. I agree. And it, and it, again, like who wants to butt against
Speaker 4: They're gonna love to read. Yeah. Like, whoever wants to come ... And you know, it's funny, Gene, like I literally over the past, like, I don't know how many years, I say at my parent night, "I cannot guarantee you that they will love to read. I can't guarantee that. I can guarantee you that they'll have the ability to read, but I can't guarantee you that they'll love to read."
My own son hates to read so much. When he was in high school, there was an article in our local newspaper, and you know, we al- we always talk about, like, high interest, like find what they're interested in? The article was the school calendar, what's the first day of summer, 'cause we had snow days. Uh-huh. So he turns around to my daughter, and I said, "Well, what's the answer?
What's the first day of summer?" And he goes, "I don't know. It said turn to page six." He disliked reading so much he wasn't willing to engage in another page. But he, he, he's very successful. You know, he's- Yeah ... but he doesn't love to read. And I read to him as much as I read to my daughter. You know? I, I, I did, but I can't guarantee that.
It's ... I also can't guarantee if you're gonna love chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream. It's, it's within you. Well, it's, that's in the, that stuff's in the rear view mirror now because in 2022 we've had, we've had four years of Sold a Story. Uh, you s- you were hosting, uh, you, you hosted something else with, uh, uh- With Emily.
Speaker 3: Can I call her Emily? I know you can. Can I call her Emily? You have my permission because she's like my- Okay ... she's like my best friend. Okay. Okay. So, so- She's not, Emily, uh, she- Okay. So but you were actually- Well, I like her very much and I think she likes me very much ... and you were actually on, on one of the episodes.
What was, what was that, what was that about? What did- So, um, a- again, I always have to bring everything back to the Facebook page with, with the big exposure. Um, and what started happening was, so I thought, um, I, I started bringing on the people that were in the episodes and asked them to join our happy hour.
Speaker 4: It, it was, it was a weekly hap- happy hour as the episodes were dropping, and I don't know if... You know what? I've got a set on me, so I'm guessing I found her email and I reached out to her, would be my guess. I can't remember because I'm old. But either I told her about the, the happy hour or she heard about it, and she Here's another.
This one day, uh, my phone rings and I look down and it literally said, "Maybe Emily Hanford." I'm like, "Well, maybe I'll answer it." So I did. And you know, she had said that she heard about it, and what she said was, "Would you..." And it was great 'cause I had this, like, tribe of people that w- would come week after week, um, and I a- adored these people, and we would jump into every episode together.
And she said, "Would you, can you put together a group of people and set up a, a happy hour and I'll come on and I will talk to everybody, um, to get their feelings about the podcast?" So I said, "He, yeah." And I did. And then so when Soldier Story ended, she then did several bonus episodes, and the first episode she did the focus was on the impact that the podcast had on different communities, like on, on how it affected students, and one of them was the impact on teachers, and she featured, um, the happy hour, things that we had done, and she had a lot of sound bites from when she joined us.
Speaker 3: And so, and so Virginia, Virginia is, is part of that. And here's, uh, something that people who will try to discredit Sold a Story, they will say, "Well, she's a journalist. She's a journalist. Uh, she's not an educator." What, what do you think about that when you, when you hear that? Even-- That is one of my biggest gear grinders.
Speaker 4: Honestly, that is such a watered-down, simplistic way to look at an incredibly accomplished female professional. Um, so many things. Like Holly Lane, like her argument, uh, is often like, did anybody ever say that about, uh, Bernstein and Woodward? You know? Yeah. And, and I just actually, I, I don't often jump into the deep end of conversations on Facebook if I disagree with somebody, but I happened to.
And what I had said to this one woman who was cri- was that exact criticism, and it is-- it's just something that somebody handed it to one person, and that person, they just keep... I- it's like a game of Operator, right? They just keep passing it down, because it, it, it has no legs. But what I said to her was, what she did was she elevated the voices of the top educational researchers like, like Matt Burns, and she reported on it.
She did the research, and she interviewed them, and then she, you know, and then, and then she presented them. And I was like, "That's the literal definition of what a journalist does." I mean, there's no journalist that you only write about. I mean, if there's, if there's a garbage strike, is it just gonna be sanitation collectors that write about the garbage?
I mean, it doesn't matter. Whatever the story is, the person is never in that profession, because their profession is a journalist. So she stayed in her lane, and she reported on education And that's her, that is her actual job, and she does it better than most I think that's a very good, uh, very good explanation of that.
Speaker 3: And, um, uh, oh, by the way, you had other good answers. I just didn't say that they were good answers- ... but they were, they were good answers. But- Gene, I don't need the affirmation. I don- I mean, if you want it, I take it back. Toss 'em in. Yeah. I, I really do. I, I do Well, so, uh, so, um, so 2022, Sold a Story, you feel, you feel affirmation for what you had, what you had, uh, known, what you had been had, having to do in the dark.
You get involved with a Facebook group that's, that's has over 300,000 folks. You're doing these, you're doing these happy hours. You're getting people involved. You've got all of these teachers from all over the country. So, um, and, and you're sharing the word. You're spreading the word. So what is it that you're doing, um, uh, so what kind of things were happening in your own district with regards to, uh, Sold a Story and, and making that move towards the science of reading?
Speaker 4: Uh, number one, I was pissing peace- pissing people off, uh, not meaning to. But, so like other states, I, I'm in Connecticut, and there's legislation, and it's coming down the pike, and I know it's coming. So, uh, so when I ... During the podcast, it actually, um, it had just, like, a natural evolution of change from the first happy hour as we were getting towards the end.
And I noticed, like, the very first happy hour, it ... There was, like, 500 people that came on, and it was predominantly teachers, and it was highly emotionally charged, as I knew it needed to be. Like, I just, I, I just knew. I, I knew how we were all feeling. There was tears. Like, it was tough. But then as one episode led to the next, when there was still
And I, I'm not criticizing them e- even a little bit, but when there were still teachers who still wanted to talk about how they felt, I just remember thinking, "That's not getting us anywhere." Like, we have talked about how we felt. And I am a, a, you know, I am more of a- You know, l- let's get to the product.
Like, l- what's the point? You know, what's the point of, of this podcast if we're not gonna start to make change? So I started... I, I would say every week, like, the power of one. Like, what's the one thing we're all gonna do this week before we come back next week? And I would say, and, and, and I would always tell them what my one was, and my one usually was if I had a meeting, I would just say S- science of reading.
Like, I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't have a long paragraph 'cause I knew nobody was listening to me, but I was like it was incumbent upon me to just always elevate science of reading. So I would just say... And then it was sort of like, you know, testing the flame to see how close I could get to the flame. You know?
And it was like, okay, I said science of reading. Now I'm gonna say... You know, and I would just, each time I would, I would say a little bit more. Um, but there was definitely times where I knew that I said too much, because I would get the, like, freeze out or the, you know, the polite nod. I'm like, "I understand," but it just...
And I, and I, and I s- said all the time at that time like, "Listen, we've looked in the rear view. We've talked about the rear view. We're sad about the rear view. We can't change the rear view. Now we're gonna look at the road ahead. And as a community of teachers, what are we all gonna do to get us to the road ahead?"
So one of the other things I started doing with the Facebook page is I would just, um, every Friday I would just load, upload a video of a quick little part of a lesson that was direct instruction. You know, that was s- something very explicit and something very, uh, reading rope driven or a simple view of re- you know, whichever way, which- whichever model you wanna look at.
Because I just kept thinking, "Okay, done. We've all, you know, we've all licked our wounds. We feel terrible, but now it's time to move on," and I thought since I have this- Since I have this platform, now it wasn't mine but I was a part of it, you know, since, since I- Right ... definitely knew that I had people listening and watching, what was I gonna do to make sure that we are just always perpetual motion moving forward?
Like, you know, we- we're done. We're done. Wah, wah. So- It was wrong. Let's go ... so as you were almost touching this flame, at, at what point did you get involved with the Goian Foundation? Uh, so I was pretty much jumped in the frying pan at that point. But I, uh, I, I had applied to become a fellow, and so with... I appli- I had applied to become a fellow, and I was accepted.
And I had talked to, again, Dinah Heitmanek, and I was like, "I, I feel like, I feel like the virtual happy hour has served its purpose." And I was very proud of it, and I'm still really proud of it. Um, and like, and, and the virtual happy hour after Sold a Story ended. I then went on to, um, I, I would then have on guests who were changing reading, you know, one research at a time or one book at a time.
And I, and I was really fortunate to learn from them and have them on, but I would always have y- you know, it was always open registration, and whoever wanted to come could come and ask these people questions. So, like Jan Hasbrouck had come on, Kareem Weaver came on. Um, r- there's more, but y- you know, I, I was so, so fortunate to learn from these people.
But I just felt like there were so many podcasts out there, um, and thankfully they were speaking other places, and I thought, I'm always about the teachers, I'm always about the classroom, I'm always about the instruction and the students, and I'm like, "We don't know what to do." And one of my closest friends at work says all the time, and I, and I...
She always says, "We, teachers, w- we're ready. We wanna do the right thing. What is it?" And I thought even now, you know, like we know science of reading. And again, this is several years ago. We've, we've evolved thankfully since then. But I was like, so I have spent a lot of my own man hours and I've spent a lot of time reading and learning and listening to podcasts and talking to people that I'm fortunate.
You know, uh, being a moderator also, I read everything that comes on and I, you know, I either post it or I politely decline it with a reason why, but it's like, it, it brought like the latest of everything into my world. So my learning, you know, lifelong learner to me was always like a, something that you put on a resume and you make sure you drop it in the interview.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I like that. But I literally was. Yeah. Um, so I thought, let me... What good does it do if it's just me? So I had said to Donna, "What I'd like to do now is I'd like to take the happy hour, and I'd like to turn that into teacher training, but I wanna show. Like I, you know, I wanna bring people into my classroom and show them how I'm applying all my new learning."
Speaker 4: And it was right around that same time that I became a Goian Fellow, and we all have to come with an expertise. Um, and of course, I kept missing the deadlines and everything. I was like, "Well, I can do UFLAI." And Kate Esolo, who runs Goian, she's like, "Nah, somebody already did that." I'm like, "All right. Well, I can do fluency."
She's like, "Nah." So it actually sort of came out of my lack of, uh, you know, being on time, that I was like, well, I wonder if... I had this idea and- Can we do that? Like, can we merge my two worlds, the Goian and the Facebook page? And she was like, "Oh my gosh, I love that." And that was three years ago. And actually, um, Faith Howard was a Goian, and she has-- she'll be presenting, uh, this year.
So they've done a fantastic job of vetting really successful educators. Um, so we get to literally sit back and enter into the classrooms or the, uh, you know, we have, we have had some interventionists. Like, so we-- teachers really literally, it's like, "Here you go. Do this. There you go." You know, that's-- Yeah.
And we see it all the time. What does it look like? Well, and I think that's one of the reasons that I asked you about the Goian, uh, fellowship, 'cause I, I knew nothing about them. Uh, somebody recommended that somebody be on the podcast, and, and oh, they're a Goian fellow. And you may have, uh, I don't know, I may have had seven or eight before you, and they're all fantastic.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh, and if, and if anybody is-- saw your name and was hoping that you were gonna give them tips about teaching today and instruction, there are none. But, but I wanted to talk about something else. But they can go and find you- Wait, I want to get back to the fact that you've had seven or eight before me.
Speaker 4: What the heck? Well, it's interesting you say that. It's interesting you say that. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. Well, I, I was just kidding, but I'll talk about whatever you want. No, no, no, it's, it's, it's, it's serious. Uh, this is a-- I mean, it, it's a serious thing, because we met at, um- In Wyoming.
Speaker 3: It wasn't a research ed, but it was a very similar, very similar thing. It was a science, science of learning, science of reading type conference, and there were people there for the first time, had never, "Uh, what do you mean science of learning? What do you mean science of reading?" Had never heard anything about it.
And so, uh, you know, we think, you know, oh, sold a story. We've got 300,000 to... It's a drop in the bucket. The, it, it, it's not out there. And but before I go on, you can go online if you google, uh, if you google, uh, Virginia's name, and we'll have some links in, in the show notes, you can find some teaching. You can find people teaching, actually doing the things that you talk about, which I think is, which I think is so important, which to me right now is that's what's missing.
You know, we talk about going into schools and, and, and working with, uh, with the faculty and that we have to have a, uh, uh, you know, a common vocabulary. W- there is nothing, we have nothing in common. I mean, p- you know, to be able to talk about effective instruction, uh, 'cause we need to see it. We need to see it.
Right, right. Somebody to mediate it. Right. Somebody, you know. And so, and so folks, uh, don't miss a chance because there's a lot of great, a lot of great videos about these things, and they're, uh, many of them are, are shorter clips, isolated, isolated and fixed upon strategies, specific strategies. Well, um, and truthfully, tell me if I'm going too, um, off course with this, but- Uh, e- uh, what's really been striking me, like, uh, uh, uh, I'm sure we'll talk about season two of Sold a Story, and, uh, at some point, but s- you know, season two, again, it's about, like, the direct instruction and the explicit instruction.
Speaker 4: And now, I'm starting to think about my math instruction with my first graders as, as well. But what really I, I, I keep coming back to, and I, and I use this example a lot, but my mom crocheted. She crocheted, sh- she crocheted every night, and she'd plop me on her lap, and she crocheted with me on her lap. So I, I, you know, and I watched her every night, and I loved it.
I had a love of crocheting when my mom crocheted. I can't crochet. My mom never taught me. You can't do anything if you're not actually taught. Uh, what, like, boggles my mind is we know that about every other thing on God's green Earth, but we've stopped applying it to reading and math. Like when you just said about the video, so if I...
Like, legit, any example. Y- you and I talked recently about golf, right? And you, you- Mm-hmm ... you know, that was your example. If somebody's gonna teach me to golf, they're going to model golfing for me, and they're gonna tell me exactly where to put my, my hands on the cl- you know? There's literally no example of any type of learning that there's not direct instruction, and if somebody's not...
You know, if, if you sign up for an online course for, I, y- you know, for, for, for cooking, there's gonna be a video of somebody cooking. So where's all the videos? You're like, why are we not providing videos for how to teach a- anything? But oddly enough, like, those are the two big things that we just don't take that approach.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting. I haven't talked about me for a second on this, uh, podcast, so I'm gonna tell you, we used to t- we used to, uh, use videos in our training, and we stopped doing it. Oh. And I'll give you, I'll give you t- two examples of, of why, two things that happened. The first one was, uh, uh... And we had teachers, teachers who we had trained, and, uh, they were...
We knew them. We knew the lessons were quality, and we'd show the lesson, and I swear to God, this is, would be some of the comments. "I can't believe she wore that for that video." Oh yeah. Well, if I only had 20 students, I could do that too. Yes. Yeah. But the, but the big one, the, the, the one that, uh, the, that did it for me, this was the capper, when they said, "You faked it."
Speaker 4: Yes, uh, yeah. There, there, there is no way those kids could be able to do that. And I, and, and so I just stopped doing it, and I modeled a lesson. And, uh, and, and I would model a lesson that teachers either forgot or never knew the content. Mm-hmm. Because you can't, you can't participate in a lesson and pretend you don't know something.
Right. So, uh, and so what happens in those instances when I do that, there's a moment when they realize I learned it because he taught me. Right. Right. That's true. And- That's what- You know, you know. And so, and so thank goodness for y- you know, the, all the, all the videos that are available for folks to show, to show those things.
Speaker 3: But I don't think those videos convince anybody. They're there already. You know, they're, uh, they've already made the, the decision, this is where I'm going. This is, this is, this is what I wanna do. But it- one of the things that is, is hard for me, and getting back to this, these folks in, in, uh, at the conference in Wyoming, that there's, this is their first time there.
I talked to many of the people who were presenting, and most of the people who were presenting were teachers, you know? Right. And, uh, uh, some of them, you know, uh, well-known within the community, like yourself, like Faith, like Laura. I mean, you know- Mm-hmm ... uh, Alana, uh, Sean, Sean Morrissey. I mean, you know, people, people who, uh, we think are well-known Right
but they're only known in our, in our community. Right. And then I'd ask them, I said, "Okay, so when you present this in your district, what's the reaction?" And, and their faces are kind of like yours right now, that people can't see it. It's like- ... "I don't. I don't. Nobody knows. Nobody knows I do." They're traveling all over the country.
They're, you know, they're half-ass celebrities. But in their district- One of those that you mentioned has written a curriculum. An incredibly well-thought-out, going to be successful curriculum. Yeah. You can't know yourself much more than writing your curriculum. Yeah. So how do we get over that, or do we?
You know, the whole idea of, uh, you know, when Jesus was home he was just a carpenter type of thing. Uh, honestly, that question is way above my, above my pay scale. I, I, um, I have chosen to just, um- Keep doing what I'm doing, and whoever is receptive to it, I am c- I am 100% availed to them, and if you are not receptive to it, then there's nothing I can do.
Speaker 4: I, I, you know, I can't ... I tried, um, and I, I, I have to say, like that, on a very selfish level because I, well, I had two reactions. I was so sad for them because I knew how it felt. Um, but the selfish part of it, I was like, "Oh, wow, I thought it was just me." Yeah. I mean, like, you know, the, the ... Again, the people that you just named, they are so highly accomplished in what they're doing, and it's not because
They have great personalities, right? They're very funny, fun people, but they are presenting because they have put in hours upon hours upon hours of their own time because they are passionate about literacy instruction. So if somebody doesn't want to embrace that, uh, y- you know, y- y- you, you kinda can't make them, but, but knowing how smart and accomplished they are, I'm like, wow, y- you don't wanna be heard either?
Like, I, I just, I was floored. I'm like, how could you have this person in your district and not wanna learn from them? So I- I was proud to be in the club, and I was sorry that the club existed- I- ... at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. No. I, I get it. You know, I have this vision of you, you know, you know, every time you, uh, you're
Speaker 3: One thing you're gonna do with science, you know, science of reading. I, uh, I don't know if you remember that Seinfeld episode where somebody sneezed, and they say, "Oh, you're so good-looking." I have this vision- ... of Virginia, somebody sneezes, you say, "Science of reading. Science of reading." Uh, but I don't know if that would've- But can I tell you this, Ray?
I don't know if that would've helped you to- I've always said, you know, the whole thing with like, with the swear jar, and you gotta put a dollar in the swear jar. I'm like, well, my swear jar is like, you know, within 20 minutes of being awake my sq- swear jar- ... is already overflowing. But I, I used to joke if I had a science of reading jar, I'm not sure which one would fill up first.
Speaker 4: Like, to the point ... And, and I'm sorry when I do it. Truly, I am sorry when I do it. Like, I have said like, "Look, I'm sorry. I get it." And then as soon as I do, I'm like, "No, I'm not. I, I'm not." None of this ... Listen, m- my ego is fine. You know? My sense of self is fine. I- I'm fine. I'm not doing this for me. None e- nothing I've ever said, and alienating myself within my own confines- I, you know, I've done all of this because kids weren't...
because we weren't teaching reading correctly. Yeah. And I have, I have absolutely, um, you know, I, I know that, that people's opinions of me have changed for the better, and I know that people's opinions of me have changed in other ways because they just, uh, I, I think they truly think that it's, like, me.
Like, "Well, everybody listen to how much I know." It's like, nope, it's never been about that. It has never been about that. It's about what's happening is not what they need. Um, so be as pissed off at me as you want, but can we just move in the direction that science and research is telling us to move in?
Speaker 3: You know, I have, uh, uh, you know, you, we were conjecturing, you know, why this hasn't moved, uh, uh, faster, uh, faster and been accepted, you know, more rad- more readily than it has been. Uh, and again, how disappointing it is to talk to people at conferences. And, "Oh, so you're so excited. How long you been... Oh, this is a couple years, and you know, I keep coming back.
I've always learned something." And I said, "Oh, and so how many folks in your district are doing this?" "Oh, just me." Yeah. And that, that's, that's, that, that's heartbreaking because many people think, many, many people think, administrators or other folks think, "Oh, well, it'll just be word of mouth. It'll grow." Mm.
And, and, and you know what? By taking a look at the math of how slowly it goes, we're gonna lose another generation of kids. Right. And it just, it just goes s- so fast. Well, uh, we talked about, okay, we talked about season one of, uh, of, uh, Sold a Story, and now we've got season two, and we've had, what, three episodes.
So we don't exactly know what's going on unless you're one of the, one of the insiders. I don't know. But they've started out, they started out talking about math, and, and I have a theory about why math instruction is in the way it is. Uh, and one of them is just the, our culture in the United States, and that is, you know, it's not okay not to be able to read.
Speaker 4: Right. But there are two things you could say as an adult in the United States that people will say and not be embarrassed. "I only know one language, and I can't do math." Mm. It's okay. Yeah. You know, pe- pe- people say that. So, so I think that's part of the reason is that, oh, we think that it's a, a very specialized, you have to be a special person to be a math person.
Speaker 3: And, uh, so that's my, that's my thought, and now we've got season two, Sold a Story. Looks like it's gonna be about math. What do you, what do you think about, um, since you and Emily are like this- Mm ... what do you think, what do you think of when you- We're twins. We're not twins. We're twins. People think we are.
So tell, so tell me, so s- tell me what are, what are your hopes and, and thoughts about season two? So, um, it's very, it's really funny what you just said about math because, um- I was hoping that it, it would be about math, and I, I had a happy hour last night for seasons one through three. And, uh, Brent Conway is a really smart guy in our community, and he came on.
Speaker 4: He was on the, uh, Knowledge Matters Campaign podcast, and I was talking about math and, like, the new thing that I'm sort of gunning for that I don't... You know, my, my, my philosophy of instruction doesn't really align with productive struggle, and I feel like productive struggle is like the Book Nook of math.
You know? It just sounds like, woo-hoo. It's, like, so sexy, and who wouldn't- Yeah ... you know. Um, but it just feels like an oxymoron to me. And I talked to him about that last night, and he said almost just what you said, and he's a really smart guy, Gene, so that's, like, good on you, good for you that, you know, you had same thought.
Speaker 3: Maybe, maybe that's the wood laugh. Maybe that's the wood laugh. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That you're a really smart guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know that. Yes. Um, but he said exactly that, and, and he also added to that and he said, "We can catch you up in math." Right? "If you get to fourth grade and you're not great at addition and multiplication, we can get you there.
Speaker 4: Like, hope is not gone." He's like, "But as we all know, if you get to third and fourth grade and you're still struggling with literacy..." And I was like, "Right, right, right. I, uh... Yes." And, and the truth is I am one of those people that, um, I tutored fifth graders years ago, um, in an elementary school, and it was, like, fifth grade math, and they would write the answer and they'd look at me.
I'm like, "Mm-hmm, that's right." I, I didn't know. Yeah. I just lied. I lied to these poor... You know? And I would quickly be doing it, and then I would have... But they were able to get to the answers faster than I could because if you could, like... My thought bubble when there's math, I'm, like, screaming. Like, duh, I, I just don't know.
Um, and I've, I have lived successfully. I could not have lived as successfully if I was unable to read. Like, I can read the check, I just really can't figure out the tip, right? And, and I can survive. Right. But I, you know, I need to read the menu. But, um, so I'm not actually positive that it's gonna focus on math.
I was hoping it would, but now after I've been straightened out by two very intelligent gentlemen, um, I, I do hope that it does stay more in the literacy lane, 'cause I think you're both insightful and correct that literacy is so really important. I do know that just because I, I listened to the end of the podcast of season three, uh, episode three.
But- And I'm hope- you know, it seems like episode four is gonna be talking about how the different communities are receiving literacy instruction. Um, she ended season three with talking about there was a community of predominantly Black students that with the direct instruction had great results, and they were accused of cheating You know, it's sort of like the, um, the Mississippi Miracle.
You know, this highly Black community had great results, must be a miracle. Yeah. It can't be the hard work of an extremely intelligent Black woman that took this community on, put it on her shoulders, and got them to the great reading scores. It was just, "It's a miracle. Praise God." Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I am concerned, again, I'm just like you, I've only listened to three episodes, but again, because of the attitude of, that we just described about, you know, math maybe not being seen as important, I, I think a subtext for me as I listen, uh, very similar to season one, if you were a teacher and you were doing, uh, the balanced literacy and you were doing that stuff, it was okay.
Speaker 3: I mean, it, it, it was okay 'cause you didn't know any better. Now it feels like, no, you're bad. You're a bad person. It, it, it, it... and, and, and it feels like we're pitting, there's gonna be, well, it's, it's on social media right now. You know, I mean, you know, uh, oh, you're in favor of direct instruction? Oh, you're a fascist.
You believe that, you know, you just wanna control kids. This is all, this is all we're doing, and it is, uh... And that's what, that's what I worry about. I mean, we are so siloed right now. I don't usually use the word siloed because it sounds, uh, like a cliché. I think we're more in cults- Mm ... uh, because we do have, we do have our, our heroes in, in the thing.
So, so when you talk to Emily, ask her about that. Ask her about that. Ask her about the- Hold on ... ask her about the tone. I'll be right back. I'll just jump off and- But anyway, that's, that's my concern after, you know, uh, like, like we started, uh, I started the, you know, working in, in my consulting group in 2006, and 2006 we were just, they were just starting to talk about Common Core and, uh, and, uh, getting away from instruction per se.
You know, it was more like the arguments that we're seeing, uh, now about inquiry-based learning and project-based learning and that sort of thing. And so my partner and I at the time, uh, we were explicit instruction folks, but we said, "We can't say we're doing that." You know? Right. We, we, we can't say we do explicit instruction.
We can't say we do direct instruction. We c- we can't say... So we came up with another name, but once the teachers saw what we were doing, it's like you said, "Of course I have to model. Of course I have to do this. Of course we're gonna practice." And they got it. And so the point of this story is that- Again, we have to let people be open enough.
We can't piss them off before we have a chance to let them see what's on the inside, and that's always-- that's, that's my concern with regards to implementing, and it's not only in a podcast who-- I, I, I don't care if a million people listen to it. I've got people that I talk to all the time involved in education, never heard of it, never heard of science of learning, never heard of anything.
So that part doesn't bother me. But the people who are paying attention, we can't get more implementation within a single site. We can't get our next-door neighbor to do it. And so, and so anytime we are, uh Oh, saying somebody is ignorant or s- or worse than that. They're not ignorant, they're stupid. You know?
That, that can't you see what we're doing to our kids? That's what I get concerned about, about, uh, in- Yeah, um, yes. A couple of thoughts. Um, so to go back, you know, um, and I sh- uh, when you asked me how I was received early on, um, not well initially, but like I said, I, I just, I made a commitment to the kids that people can be as mad as me at the
Speaker 4: Like, I, I don't care. It's not about ... I can take it, right? Yeah. And, and I have the voice, and they don't, so I didn't stop, and there was this one meeting that I knew I really ticked off someone, but then I was approached in my district if I would run the district-wide PD introducing science of reading. I was like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "It would be my pleasure."
And I, I worked very, very hard on it, and I've actually presented it since to several districts, and I've, I've given it to people like, "Here, take it." Um, but as I was giving it, it was not ... It was right, right after COVID, so everything was still, you know, uh, Google Meets in education, and I'm looking at all the little boxes of all these colleagues that I adore, and, and these colleagues that I adore as human beings, and I know that they love their book nooks.
I know that they love their, you know, um, balanced literacy and, and the feel-good stuff. And, and I'm looking at all their faces, and I started to, like, sweat, and I was like, "I respect them so much." So what I said was, before I m- you know, went on, I was like, "I need to stop, and I need to just acknowledge and thank you all for what you've done in teaching our kids to read.
So thank you for that, and thank you for how, how hard you've worked to master your craft with what we were given to teach them to read. What I'm, why I'm here today is that now we're gonna, we're gonna cast a wider net, and we're gonna get everybody. We haven't been getting everybody, and if we all truly think about it, we, we know that we haven't gotten everybody."
And, you know, when you were saying before about, you know, there's two camps, um- I, I guess I don't necessarily give a shit about the camp that's not, y- you know, doing it, and w- we can't have the conversation if we're not coming from the kids. If the kid- if the students' results, and if this generation, if we're not leading every single conversation with what our kids need, then the conversation is incomplete.
And I think the other side that's still not here, they just can't be seeing it from the kids' perspective because you can't justify 40% of your kids leaving you not being able to totally read. So I'm unwilling to have a conversation that starts with, like, the teachers or the administrators or anybody.
Like, we cannot take our eyes off the kids. Virginia, I can't think of a better place to leave this than that, except for- Do you have a- do, do you have any questions for me? Yes. How do you make a Big Mac? Just kidding.
Um, you know, it's funny. Uh, I do, and you sort of asked it of yourself at one point, but- You know, those of us who are as old as you and I, RG, and like we have seen ... One expression that I can't stand is like the pendulum swing. I understand- Oh, okay. Okay ... but I'm not a fan. I, I really can't stand that. We're gonna
W- okay. We, we won't edit it out because it's a cliche, but you have- Oh ... presented it as a cliche But I don't like it. You've presented it as a cliche. Right. I don't like it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Delete it. Okay. Okay. Don't have my permission to edit. I'm kidding. Um, so not using that 'cause I don't like it, but in, in the experience that you've had in literacy to this point, and it's, and it's very expansive You've seen different shifts, you've seen different things come, you've seen different things go.
Do you think that we are actually at a precipice for change now? Or do you think this is yet another conversation that may not lead where we need to go? Oh, you know, uh, talk about above my pay grade, but I'll just tell you, you know, s- some of my experiences, not necessarily in literacy, but just in working with districts in general.
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, we, we'll be in a district and we're in a district of, I think it was like 18,000 kids, so there were- Right ... at least, at least half a dozen s- schools and, and we-- uh, it was at the time when, when my-- I had a-- I actually had people working for me. This was before COVID, long before COVID. I actually had folks working for me, and we were in this district and, uh, we did initial training.
We did, um, uh, coaching cycles with every teacher. We had coaches we were training, and the coaches would be, um, shadowing, not me, but all of us to see that, you know, it's not personality driven. It is, it is content driven. And, uh, I mean, we were on the precipice, you know, after three years of just going and, and, and doing something really good in this district.
And not me, but the district. Right. Superintendent retired, came in, "We're not doing that anymore." You know- I knew the ending before you got to the ending. And, and, and it is so common. It-- that story is as common as the teachers presenting being lone wolves at their, at their schools- Right ... school sites. And, and that's what's so bad about, um
It, it is, it is bad about putting in the work and then thinking you're, you're right there, uh-
And then there's one other thing that I was gonna say, but I wanna g- uh, call back on what you said about how old I am that, you know, that I forgot, I forgot what it w- what it was gonna be. But, uh- Way to prove it.
But, but that's what, that's what I see. It's, it's not even, uh... It's not even a pendulum swing. I mean, it, it, it's with- it's within, you know, just a few degrees of plumb, you know, where- Right ... where, that, that it moves, and it just takes, it just takes one person. And, uh, it's, it's really, it's really disheartening.
And so what happens? The teachers who have embraced it, the teachers who realize, "God, this stuff works," now they have to go into hiding. Yeah. You know, they have, they have to, uh, to justify what they're doing. It's, it's a mess. You know, it, it's, it's a mess. I know that's why, um, when people talk about... Well, like you mentioned, you know, uh, there's gonna be legislation in, in Connecticut.
Well, that's wonderful, you know? It, it, we have lots of legislation in California and I tell people, "Don't worry about it. We're not gonna do it anyway." You know? Yeah. Unless, unless you are, are a, uh, uh, you know, at a sanctioned school, and that you have people walking through checking, it just, stuff just, stuff just doesn't happen, or it happens at such a surface level.
Speaker 4: Right. Um, so, so I, I don't know. Uh, it, it's where I, uh, uh... You caught me, y- you know, I was pretty hopeful talking to you for, for 45 minutes, and now I'm down again, you know? Uh- Oh. I j- I just, uh, I just don't know how it's gonna happen. I just, I just don't, uh, you know, that, that we're gonna, that we're gonna make these changes.
Speaker 3: And i- and it's just, you know, that I hope a kid gets into a classroom like yours. Yeah. I have a little more hope. I do f- I do feel like, um, like I say, I think Sold a Story started something. Um, but you're right. I mean, I... It might just be the community that I'm in.
It's, uh- But I, I hope, I hope, uh- Yeah, I, I hope I'm wrong. Yeah. I, I mean, it has to. We can't, we, we can't do this to the kids, you know? We need to do better. Well, you know, the, um, the difference is when I was growing up, uh, it was obviously last century, and, uh, you know, we had ... The things that were going on are the things that they teach in the, the history books now for, you know, sociology of education.
Like, we had, uh, you know, we had a special ed. This was before IDEA. There was one special ed classroom, was literally 200 yards away from the school, the rest of the school. Yeah. Nobody ever saw the kids. Yeah. They just knew th- they just knew they were in, they just knew where they were in that class. And I lived in a farming community, and each grade level had three classes, a high class, medium, and a low cl- and, and low performing.
High class was all white, the low class was all brown- Right ... and the middle was, was mixed, and nobody cared. Right. And nobody ... And, and, and the reason that they didn't care is because, uh, if they didn't make it to high school, which was literally across the street, they would find a job working. You know, they could go work.
And so, uh, things that we used to think were okay and that people reminisce about the good old days, that's ... The good old- Right ... days weren't that great. You know, it's just that- Right, right ... it's just that, um- Good for some. Yeah, yeah. We had a different perspective about things. Right. So there, there's ... And that's another thing that I worry about.
Instead of worrying about, you know, science of learning, science of instruction, science of reading, we said, "Oh, here are all these other things that we could be doing that successful places do," and neglect the one thing that we have a, uh, a real impact on. Well, I will tell you that, um, since we've met, every day in my classroom I model twice.
Oh, listen. Okay. Look at you. Every day. You're the best. You're the best. Virginia, this has been, this has been so fun, so wonderful, and, uh, I hope we get to talk soon. I think we will. Thank you for being on. You bet.
Speaker 5: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. Also, please leave a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can follow me on BlueSky @gtavarnetti, on Twitter/X @gtavarnetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website tesscg.com. That's T-E-S-S-C-G.com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast: Focused, Adaptable, Structured Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles