The Transaction

Wow, Season Two is kicking off strong with this incredible episode with Dave Gerhardt, the Founder & CEO of Exit Five. Dave joins Craig Rosenberg and Matt Amundson to share how he approaches AI for B2B marketers, why influencers present a huge opportunity for B2B, and the outsized impact that building a Founder Brand can have for companies. Also, Matt shares his innermost feelings about Dave and Craig examines his own facial hair.

Critical Takeaways
  • Social media should be treated as the primary marketing channel, not just a supplementary piece of your strategy.
  • AI is best used as an “idea starter” to get your writing going, rather than relying on AI to do the actual writing itself.
  • Working with micro-influencers who have a strong, niche following can be highly effective in B2B. To see good results, it's important to create offers and content that align with what their audience wants to see. 
  • Narrowing down your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) is crucial. Starting with a more specific market allows for easier traction and learning which you can later apply more broadly. 

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Chapters
00:00 Matt provides a safe space for Dave
02:06 Discussing Founder Brand and Marketing Strategies
04:45 The Power of Personal Branding and Social Media
09:42 AI in Marketing: Opportunities and Misconceptions
20:00 Influencers and LinkedIn Strategies for B2B
26:19 Understanding the Full Funnel in Marketing
27:26 The Power of LinkedIn and Social Media
31:18 Narrowing Down Your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)
37:03 The Drift Success Story
40:00 Building a Strong Brand and Content Strategy
46:56 An In-depth Review of Craig’s Facial Hair


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Epic Quotes
  • “Social media is the way marketing happens in our lives today.” - Dave Gerhardt
  • “I use [AI] a lot as my writing partner, you can't really have writer's block anymore because you kind of always have something to get going” - Dave Gerhardt
  • “I love you.” - Matt Amundson

Connect with Dave

Shoutouts

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Creators & Guests

Producer
Sam Guertin
Podcast Producer & Marketer at Ringmaster Conversational Marketing

What is The Transaction?

Welcome to The Transaction.

From ABM to PLG, from MEDDIC to MEDDPICC, the world of business is constantly evolving. We’ll cover the who, what, where, when, why and most importantly how you get… The Transaction.

Hosted by Craig Rosenberg and Matt Amundson.

Presented by Ringmaster Conversational Marketing, the go-to branded podcast team. To discover how your company can leverage B2B podcasts to deliver outsized ROI, visit ringmaster.com.

TT - 031 - Dave Gerhardt - Full Episode
===

Introduction and Setting the Tone
---

[00:00:00]

Craig Rosenberg: Let's lead with that incredible, uh, and what, what do you mean a safe place? Like Dave's been in these like really acrimonious interviews, like, like Leslie Stahl was grilling him on, you know, what's going on in the world of marketing type of work.

Well,

Matt Amundson: listen, you don't get to where Dave's gotten to without somebody, you know, just nailing you with some tough questions. I was just going to say, I'm a, uh, I was letting Dave know that he's in a safe space because I'm a giant fan of his work, both, uh, both a drift and with exit five.

Uh, and so I was just trying to prime him for that because I know he and I don't know each other all that well. Uh, so. Yeah, he's, uh, he's great and I'm thrilled to have him on the show.

Dave Gerhardt: That's super kind of you. I've had people come on my podcast and I, I kind of say a similar thing. I don't tell them all that I love them in the way that you told me. Thank you. But, um,

Matt Amundson: uh, I love you.

Dave Gerhardt: thank you. I love you too. I love you too. in all seriousness, I do feel like some people when they go on interviews, they're in this like, [00:01:00] kind of like interview mode.

And like, I have to tell people like, look, I'm not trying to, there's no gotchas in my, I'm not trying to get you on anything. I'm trying to have a conversation I think saying something like that is like, okay, this is nice. It'll be a free flowing conversation. Cause I hate, I hate when I have somebody come on my podcast and it's like, They're in interview mode and it's like, I asked Craig a question and he answers it and then he's like, just wait, next question.

It's like, no, discussion is, is better. So I appreciate that.

Matt Amundson: In your face, Craig.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. Take that, pal.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I mean, I, you know, and what I really liked about starting that at that point was Matt. Yeah. [00:02:00] Moved essentially the loving intro up front. I can appreciate that.

Discussing Founder Brand and Marketing Strategies
---

Craig Rosenberg: So full announcement, Dave Gerhart, welcome to the transaction. By the way, I had your book. So on, on my shelf and meant to read it. You know how this goes.

We had Adam Robinson on the show and like, you know, the guy's just been destroying it with the founder brand thing. And like, Matt and I had to go back to the transcripts because he had mentioned these things that were like part of his like, how he figured this thing out. He's like, Oh, and you got to read Founder Brand.

I'm like, Oh my God, it's right here. I read it in one plane flight.

Dave Gerhardt: I mean, it's like a blog post.

Craig Rosenberg: It was so good. I mean, you know that, right? That was a great.

Dave Gerhardt: Thank you. Yeah. Adam's become, Adam's become this huge advocate and he's literally huge. He's in, if you've never met him in person, he's like three, if you stack three of me on, on stools, I would maybe be [00:03:00] able to. to dunk on Adam, but he's been advocating this founder brand thing. And, um, like I, I wrote the book and I just kind of wanted to put something down and, I really just wanted to try to write a book.

And so it was like more of just like a personal project. Um, I didn't have any big expectations for it. And then a couple people like Adam is one who's just like taken on. And I think it's like anything in marketing or business, it's like, once you name it, It becomes so much easier to spread. And so I think founders have been doing this type of marketing forever, but then we started calling it founder brand.

And Adam was the first one that I really was saw advocating like, Oh, you got to do this founder brand thing. You got to do this. And he's just, he's next level. I don't know if he, he comes up the most insane hooks for his content. It'll be like, it'll lead you to like sign up for some webinar. And he's like, so.

The other day a 100, 000 pound tree fell on me and I was alone in the forest and but guess what you'll never guess and I didn't have any tools or knives or anybody to help me and I had no cell phone service but guess what I did and then he like leads into this like amazing hook for like sign up for his webinar he's so sure you can write the book and I'm just giving Adam [00:04:00] some shit because I know him and he's great.

He has that sauce. Like he has that, like, love him or hate him. He has the thing that was like the premise of founder brand. It's like, Oh, we're looking for so many ways to differentiate our companies. And I'm like the founder can be one because usually the founder is some crazy person who started this company.

You know, out of some passion or some, you know, prior success or some failure. And so they naturally have all these stories. They're oftentimes like their personalities can be all over the place. Cause you gotta be a little bit crazy to go start a company and be an entrepreneur. And so those ingredients and you have Adam, who's like a natural storyteller.

He's, he's perfect at it. I don't think anybody could just pick it up and do that, but he's kind of put his own POV on there and that's why it's working. It's pretty cool.

Craig Rosenberg: It's amazing.

The Power of Personal Branding and Social Media
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Craig Rosenberg: I've been, uh, I know we should start the interview in a sec, but, uh, so I've been, I, you know, I'm doing, um, uh, I'm at scale venture partners, primarily series a, but even with everyone I've been saying, [00:05:00] you know, you gotta read founder brand, You said, well, look, I put a name on something that the founders are doing already, but there's a rubric for how you tell your story.

There's a way to think about, you know, what you could do with this thing inside of you. They all have the story inside of now. Can they execute like Adam now, man?

Dave Gerhardt: I'll give you an example of, a founder friend of mine is about to announce a new company. And he asked me to just give some advice on, you know, launch strategy and everything. And I said, yes, cause I think he's great. And it's also fun to just My business is so different now.

It's fun to like get back in the weeds a little bit. And so I'm watching him and he's working with a PR team and they're trying to do this announcement and very well known founder, super successful, has a bunch of hits, raised money from top VCs. None of the, none of the presses cares to write about him because it's another AI startup and there's already been a hundred of them.

And, and so. I'm like, who cares? Who? Honestly, who cares? What does it matter? What does an article in TechCrunch [00:06:00] matter? What does that matter? Because you have a following on LinkedIn. He's been posting like a bunch of teasers, like about launching his company. And they've all been going like nuts, like seven, 800 likes, you know, hundreds of comments.

And I'm like, when you The launch strategy is literally going to be, you're going to go to LinkedIn and you're going to say, we're now open, right? Like you're going to write your post on LinkedIn and you're going to drive that to your website. And that is going to drive quite literally thousands of people relevant to you in your niche, to your website on the day of you launch.

I know why we want the vanity of the tech crunch, but I can guarantee you that the tech crunch article isn't going to drive traffic like that would. And so that's, that's why you do this. And so now he has that brand. And so like, It's why we've been able to build exit five. It's like, if you can build an audience online and go direct to your audience, like that is the goal.

I'm not saying don't get press. I love marketing. I think marketing is a game of perception. I think press absolutely matters and it looks nice to have that headline and send it around. But come on, if you have a direct relationship of your audience, you launch something new, you send an email to your list and you post about it.

There's, there's nothing [00:07:00] more, more powerful than having that. And so that is like what founder brand is now. Founders are like, well, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be out there. I don't want to be in front of it. Okay. Then that's fine. Then that means you just have to go and look at the other like 15 marketing tactics.

It's just, it's one strategy. I think you can choose to try to, to try to build.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I love it. By the way, fun fact, and then I promise I'll ask the big question, Matt.

Matt Amundson: No, no, it's okay. He's like, he's already going.

Craig Rosenberg: Just so you know, Dave, it's like, I could just be sitting here going.

Thank you for, uh, we'll send you the check. No, uh, but Matt, it is important to Matt that planes get landed on the show, certain things that we're supposed to get done. We have to get that, but per your point, we have a company bland. ai. I don't know if you've seen them. They do voice AI. So they were not getting picked up on the press for their series a announcement, but it was funny because they have this young [00:08:00] growth hacker marketing lead, Michael guy's amazing.

He just kind of, yeah, yeah. I'm going to, I have this launch plan I'm going to do. Dude, they launched via video and social. He did it just like consumer marketers did. He reached out to the influencers. He played this game so well. They have over 7. 2 million views on Twitter or X or whatever. That's amazing.

Amazing. Yeah. That's guess what? That's how I found out about their announcement. I work with them. It was in my feed because one of these guys that, you know, big, big influencer type wrote, this was funny. He wrote. We're all effed, right? Because I sound so good now. I'm like, what a retweet.

Dave Gerhardt: I love that. I love the non traditional stuff. It's great.

Craig Rosenberg: so here's the big question that we start every show with. Plain, about to land, Matt. Is, um, you know, what is something or somethings that the Market thinks they're doing right. It could be approach, best practices, [00:09:00] tactics, tactics, methodologies, et cetera. They're actually wrong and they should be doing something different.

You know, what is it and what should they go do about it? All right. Now we will nod our heads the rest of the time. Please take it away, Dave.

Dave Gerhardt: All right. I just had to jot down some notes. I'm not always. Great on the spot, but I can't, if I, you know, it's like dance monkey. What, what kind of joke do you have?

Matt Amundson: Say something funny.

Dave Gerhardt: Something funny. Actually, this is like the, the thing that like, I think my strength in marketing is like, uh, creativity and storytelling and writing.

And I would hate to be in meetings when they'd be like, bring Dave into this meeting. Dave, Dave, what do you got? What do you got? I'm like, the process doesn't work like that. Like I'll, I might have it like, Tonight on a run or in the shower.

AI in Marketing: Opportunities and Misconceptions
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Dave Gerhardt: So anyway, um, I think so maybe there's, we can see how much you want to talk about, but, um, I think AI is the big one for me and I don't have any like new hot takes.

Like I hate to come on your podcast and be like AI, but I see a lot of marketers that [00:10:00] kind of rolled their eyes at it. Right. Rightfully so. I think there is some like, uh, this kind of sucks like to, to the point about the, you just mentioned like the guy saying we're all aft. Like it kind of sucks. Like, Content used to be such a thing is now all this content going to be like generated by a machine.

And like, even if, even if it's good, even if it's good, I think there's something as humans where like if the sales, if the email was sent from a human, a human genuinely craft that, like that got opened, that got the meeting, that feels a little bit better. There's just something like we, we created that.

And so I think a lot of people are caught up in the content and they're like, this sucks. And so I don't want to like it. And then they go on the fact that You know, chat GPT or any of these copywriting tools. Like everybody thinks AI for marketing is like the writing side. They think of it as like a way to generate content at scale.

And yeah, you're going to get a bunch of shitty blog posts, like from chat GPT, if that's all you do, but on the other side. I see so many things that are going to be possible for the role of a marketer. And I think of like myself as a full stack [00:11:00] marketer where I've always kind of done a little bit of everything.

Like I could get a website going, get a landing page going, video done ads. I can do all that stuff. I'm not the most technical person, but I can do that. Now picture a world where I can generate scripts. I could use like something like, Hey Jen, to make a video avatar. And, uh, I can make a product demo. I could, I could, um, fix a landing page on, on my own.

Danielle on our team at Exit5 the other day, she, she was like, Oh, I was stuck. I don't really know CSS. And I was trying to mess around with the formatting on this like website page. So I went to ChatGPT. I asked it to tell me I got the code from ChatGPT and I paste it into the landing page builder. It's like things like that, that I think we're sleeping on.

It's not the like, Is this going to replace my job, right? Shitty content thing. It's like the workflows, the tools, the technology. Um, I was on a call yesterday with a friend of mine who was like a head of Rev Ops and he was like, what's possible because of AI and like the marketing ops stack and like data analysis.

That whole world, I think those things are all super positive. And so [00:12:00] I think that's something that I think everybody's like, Oh, AI, whatever. I just think they're thinking about it wrong. I see it as like the next wave of technology that you're going to, that's going to, you know, sit side by side with you as a marketer.

Just like back in the day, they didn't have the tools that we have now. It's just going to be one of those new, new pieces of, um, you know, things that work alongside us. And so I'm super excited about it.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, your reaction?

Dave Gerhardt: You guys are supposed to say something.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I know we'll sometimes we look at each other. Well, I'm not sure if he's looking at me, by the way, Dave, because of the video. Matt, are you looking at me, or was I looking at you?

Matt Amundson: I mean, I try to look at both of you guys at the same time. You use both eyes, but, uh, I say, I mean, listen, it's not controversial to say, like, I agree with Dave here. I mean, the reality is, is like, I think a lot of people have poo pooed chat GPT or AI in general, just because like, you know, it's very easy to understand, like, Or very easy to perceive, I should say, what is being written by AI and what is not.

But I think to Dave's point, [00:13:00] it's the idea that like you're going to get assistance in other workflows. You're going to get assistance in building. Uh, it's not just the copy that you're putting out. And I think if you are trying to use AI to write the copy for you, you're probably in a rough spot. Now that's not to say that you can't use it to get ideas started because sometimes the best way to start ideas is to say, Hey, I'd like to, You know, I'd like to write a white paper on this topic.

Like, give me a couple of controversial takes. Uh, that stuff works really well. Uh, or, you know, Hey, um, I really like this article. Can you pull out the three best things about it? Um, that's a good way to get things started, but, you know, uh, as an end to end solution for copywriting, it's, it's not great, but I think your, your

Dave Gerhardt: use cases, your use cases that that's actually been my number one. I don't really often use the, the content that comes from it, but I use it a lot as like my writing partner, especially when I'm talking about something that I might not have deep [00:14:00] expertise in, or I can't. generate topics easily.

And so I'll be like, Hey, you know, how in, you know, I'm just thinking about marketing, like, you know, how in cybersecurity this thing happens and this thing happens. Well, what would be the reasons for that? And I could use chat GP to then do the research and explain to me a topic that I'm not an expert.

And I'm like, Oh, interesting. Okay. Now if I'm writing an article for a cybersecurity company, I can have this amazing research partner. Like I know I'm a good writer. I know I'm a good storyteller, but I might not have the deep, Subject matter expertise of that industry. That's a perfect use case that I think a lot of marketers can take.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, look, I, we have a lot, you know, that this gets brought up a lot on the show and like when, you know, we're talking to go to market folks. So I get like, there's a whole bunch of people out there who are not resistant, but you know, it's, And I don't know about like full negativity, but like, you know, folks are saying like it's an ant, it's an oar, which is like, well, you know, now we're going to [00:15:00] be uniquely human.

And that's going to be the differentiator, um, versus all the AI products that are going to produce all this, you know, content, et cetera. And, and that shouldn't be an or, like that's an and. Like that's how you, that's frankly, by using those tools, you can be even more, you have the speed and the tools at your fingertips to be more uniquely human.

Dave Gerhardt: absolutely. And think of the, think of the use cases as a marketer. Like I, that's what I think of, or somebody in sales or inside of a company. It's like, Hey, take me, um, get a list of all the custom, all the new customers that we've won over the last 90 days. Take the, all the transcripts from those calls, take all the notes from the reps in the CRM, take all the marketing activity.

Right. And help me come. Find some trends and summarize, you know, how these people are finding us like, boom, there you go. You have a one pager of something to give you an, you know, insight into your strategy or like we take all the churn, all the reasons people churn from exit five. We just use chat [00:16:00] GPT to summarize that data every month.

And it's like, it's just saved us three hours right there. We got the, we got the report. It's. Stuff like that. We're not wasting time on, on silly things anymore.

Craig Rosenberg: You know, it's really interesting, you guys. We did like a quick survey. We do these things called councils, Dave, in the portfolio where it's like we'll have, actually Matt helped start them, we have demand gen folks, we have product marketing, we have SDR, we have RevOps, and we polled them about their use of AI.

And I assume that RevOps and SDR would be Um, significantly more aggressive, but actually product marketing was really the number one sort of AI user. But here's the thing. It was like 70 percent of those product marketers, well, roughly like call it 68%. It was all individuals using it in an ad hoc manner.

And then overall, if you put all the different functions together in the polling, it was [00:17:00] like 58, 59%. Of everyone was individuals are using it in an ad hoc matter manner. We saw less of like department wide formalized AI,

Matt Amundson: Mm

Craig Rosenberg: even the use cases we're talking about today. What we're seeing is like, you know, this new AI power user, um, being really good.

And, and, and we'll continue to see that at least now as people get used to it. I think, you know, when people ask me what's like the, the, uh, gateway drug, I'm like, dude, just go use chat GPT or whatever, you know, and like, just start to play with it in terms of some of the things you do. I, but I, I don't know about you guys.

I was surprised that product marketing. Had the highest sort of usage. I wasn't surprised that it was all ad hoc stuff, but it's exactly the use cases Dave has brought up

here. They're just, they're just plagiarizing all the copy and putting it on the website. It's fine.

That's not, yeah, come on now. [00:18:00] But they taught, I mean, we talked to him, it's like market research, you know, some of the things that they need to go do in the past, I mean, I've been doing like initial takes on buyer personas for folks, just using, Perplexity and whatnot. It's just been fast.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. I mean, you could, you could be like, Hey, we sell to, it's like a thought, it could be a thought partner, right. In, in like personas and research. It's like, Hey, we sell to fortune 1000 CFOs. Um, what are the, what are the, some of Take me inside the mind of a fortune, you know, 500 CFO. What are some of the things they care about?

And that's not to take that verbatim, but it's like, Oh, interesting. Now I got some things going. Okay. All right, cool. So maybe we could, Oh yeah, we hear this topic a lot. Number three, boom. Whatever. All right. Let's start writing about that. Like it's such an idea starter. Like you should never, uh, you, you can't really have writer's block anymore because you kind of always have always something to get, to get going.

I love that use case.

Craig Rosenberg: idea starter. I love that. Actually, Matt's was telling me about the sales team at his last gig. You know, [00:19:00] they were using one of the AI tools, right? And you're saying, how do I talk to this company and this guy at this company? And it was coming with ideas.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: PrEP, that's a very specific question for PrEP. That's amazing that we can get that. And it's as an idea starter. I love that.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, you can do great things with it. You can write custom GPTs so that it understands your brand and it understands the products that you sell. And so you can just, you know, once you build that for your sales team, the sales team can utilize it to say things like, Hey, I'm about to sell to Dave Gerhart, you know, uh, his company looks like this.

Can you tell me, you know, what are, what are some of the most, to a business at that stage in that region, in that vertical, et cetera, et cetera. And it can just, you know, it just gives you a headstart.

Craig Rosenberg: It's just, uh, it's a, we're going, Matt, we're going with idea starter. It's created here and we're going with that.

Dave, I have one that I want to lead you with, but before I do that, Uh, any others on, on your list of topics where we should be thinking [00:20:00] differently?

Influencers and LinkedIn Strategies for B2B
---

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you two more. I can do quicker ones of these. So one of them is influencers. Um, I think that, I think that there's a big potential for B2B companies to work with influencers. And there's a couple of things in there. Number one, the reason why is because that. Economics actually are way better in B2B because if I work with a, you know, consumer influencer, I start a golf brand and I sell hats and hoodies and shirts, right?

I got to sell a lot of damn product through that influencer to try to make the money back, right? Versus in B2B, Um, just using like a, it's kind of a similar thing, but like one of our sponsors from Exit5, they got, they did a big sponsorship with us. They got nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.

This is not working. This is not working. Oh, 150k, uh, dream account closed. They're like, can we do more with you? Right. And so you just need one customer. And there's also other reasons to do it beyond customers. [00:21:00] And then I also think what's interesting about. B2B is

Craig Rosenberg: You

Dave Gerhardt: thing is, um, they've probably already done a bunch of stuff already, so it's not new or unique. I like the idea of, um, so this, this woman, Natalie Taylor, she runs marketing at Capsule.

They're like a enterprise video AI editor. They did a launch and she said, I'm going to take, 10 grand, I'm going to find 10 like micro influencers, like people who talk about marketing and talk about video, but have like three to 5, 000 followers on LinkedIn, which is a lot of people. And I'm going to pay them each 500 to do a post for launch.

And so you end up spending, you spend 10 grand, you get this micro influencer campaign. You have all these people spreading your word. I think. That's a cool example that I've been talking about a lot. Cause I think more people are starting to come on to that. It's why we get sponsors for [00:22:00] exit five, but I think anybody that's talking about a topic online, we, we go to social media like LinkedIn and we write about marketing and sales, find those people.

But then people listen to this and say, well, how do I find those people? Is there like a database? No, you have to. Be there, participating, watching the space, getting really close, then you can know, okay, here's the 10 people that I think will be good. I see a lot of people asking for some magic database of influencers.

They're going to give you all the big ones anyway. You need to like, pay attention to your space, see who's posting, and then reach out. Um, And then just LinkedIn. So influencers one and LinkedIn in general. I think I would be, I think the old school, the old PR strategy of just pitching and trying to get press and trying to get people to write about you is, is doesn't work the same way as it used to.

I would be laser focused on trying to build our own audience through the, through the founder's page and the key employees pages, not the company page, talking about what we're doing every day. It's not a new strategy, but I would just, Stop trying to set a goal around it for [00:23:00] let's see what results is produces in three months and just like commit to like, we're going to go to the gym for a year and we're going to measure progress in a year and we're going to all write and share.

And, and as you go, you start to understand how to measure it. You start to understand how to think about it differently. But if you obsess with measurement, And success of it out of the gate. You're never going to get going. So AI influencers and LinkedIn and

Craig Rosenberg: All right, let's talk influencers One sec. I like this one. Um, so, um, I love what you said. You got to do the work and you got to be there to see who these folks are. That I, I get, this is, you know, you want to create your list of the people that, you know, move your market or move your function or wherever.

Um, and then, so you, you gave that example. So they, they paid, like if you were giving other advice on how you approach the influencers, what would you say to that? [00:24:00] Guertin.

Dave Gerhardt: Uh, I work for XYZ SEO company. We're launching a new product in a couple of weeks, and we'd love to have you be a part of that launch.

We're interested in working with you on a partnership where you would, you would try out our product or, or learn about it and write about it. And we would pay you to post that on LinkedIn on this certain date. If this is something you'd be interested in, let me know. You could literally, you know what you could do if somebody's listening to this?

You could take out ChatGPT on your phone, you could hold it up to the speaker, play it on your computer, you could, you could take exactly what I said, ChatGPT will listen to it, transcribe it, and then you can say, generate me three versions of that email based on Dave's script to make it better. So you could also, it's a little, there's a little, a fun build on that.

So I would say that. And then the key here though is the offer. So what you have them post really matters. And so if you line up a bunch of people, if you line up a [00:25:00] influencer and you're like, we're going to have them post our blog post. Not great. Right. What Natalie didn't capsule did was she had each one of them make a video using their product and talk about why they think, why they believe in, you know, why they're bullish on video marketing or something.

Right. You can come up with a topic that's like related so that they're going to write about it in their own way. And then you have to have an offer in that. It should be like, I did one, one with a company when they launched a new product. It was like, sign up now. It's free. You know, this is a free tool you can use on your website right now.

Right. Or, um, we're working right now with this company called Planful and their sponsored content is they're driving everybody to a resource that they wrote on how to build your marketing plan. And that's perfect for this time of year because People are trying to build their budgets and do planning for marketing right now.

And so if they work with influencers to promote that, they're now widening, they're widening the reach of that. I think you really got to think about what is the thing like the, what is that audience's. What does [00:26:00] that influencer's audience, what do they want and how can you know that? And try to, Hey, we, we know they love cheese pizza.

We're, how do we serve up our version of cheese pizza that day? So they're gonna go actually wanna go try it. I think a lot of people don't think through all of the steps. It's like, we got influencers, they're gonna post about it. Okay, but you, then you gotta put yourself in the audience issues.

Understanding the Full Funnel in Marketing
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Dave Gerhardt: It's like, what's in it for me?

Am I really gonna click on this? Do I have to put in my credit card? You know, all, all of the things. I think you gotta think about the full funnel of that campaign. And that thing, that last thing I just mentioned is true for all marketing. It's why people in B2B think webinars stink or are boring is because they don't think about the actual offer, the delivery.

It matters so much.

Craig Rosenberg: I, uh, I totally, I love that. I, you know, we had a guy on Mac Redden, I don't know if you've

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. He was just at, um, he came from Denmark to Vermont for our first annual event. Yeah. We just, we just hung out with him. He's a great guy.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, similar play. He didn't have to pay. Uh, [00:27:00] but you know, he went to, uh, you know, he used a, a consumer like influencer strategy, um, he talked about a lot, I mean, he's done a lot of really creative things, but, um, you know, uh, was able to sort of, uh, loop influencers in and, um, you know, have them go help, uh, amplify them on LinkedIn where, where he's definitely sort of locked in, which is your number three.

The Power of LinkedIn and Social Media
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Craig Rosenberg: On number three on LinkedIn. So, uh, we've been big on this here cause we've seen it. I mean, Adam Robinson is a great example, but we've seen lots of examples. Where frankly, I'm not surprised you brought up LinkedIn as number three, because if you took founder brand methodology from the book and LinkedIn, I mean, this is where this, these things come together, right?

You take this, this sort of founder brand play and you've got to, uh, I'm not going to dominate on LinkedIn. I mean, I tell people, I make it really hyperbolic when I talk to people about it, but like, [00:28:00] if you're, you know, the likelihood of your market being on LinkedIn is high. If it's not, I get it. We're going to do something else.

But if it is like, we've got to take this founder brand founder persona and start to really work it on LinkedIn. And, um, so I'm, I'm not surprised you brought it up, but like.

Dave Gerhardt: I like how you said that, by the way. People, like, the way you answer that is such a pro, like, nonchalantly. Like, yeah, if your audience isn't there, then we'll do something else. I think I often, when I talk about LinkedIn, there's always, you know, one out of 50 comments, well, hey, hey, hey, bald tech bro, man, like, uh, our audience isn't on LinkedIn.

I'm like, I'm just going to answer like you did next time. It's like, okay, then do something else. Like, Mark, it's just like this set of decisions. Like, where are we going to play? Like, what are we going to do? Where are we going to play? Okay. If your audience isn't there, but to your point, there's, I think there's like a billion users or something like that.

So they're, they, they, they probably are on, on LinkedIn for sure. Um, I think the, the, the, this, this, if I like zoomed all the way out, the met, the bigger category for me is I just think [00:29:00] social media is the way to go. Marketing happens in our lives today. Everything is social media, right? It's all the content we get as people is from X.

LinkedIn, Twitter, maybe you're on Facebook, maybe you're on YouTube, right? Just because we're in B2B doesn't mean that changes. You just have to change the approach and like think about what people care about in that world. And so I think for a lot of B2B SaaS companies, for whatever reason, social media is not treated like the main thing.

To me, it's always the main marketing channel. I think social media is always like, well, we, we hired a social media intern to like post updates on our LinkedIn company page. When like, when I want to grab the screen and what I'm trying to say with you all now is like, no, this is the marketing strategy.

It's not like, oh, this little social media thing, we're going to post these cute updates about our company. No, like this is the way I would do marketing at a, you know, series A, series B, It's social media marketing. You just got to figure out what works in your industry.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah. I think the old [00:30:00] playbook was that is that social media was the sort of amplification of everything else that you were doing. And I think what you're advocating for now is like, that's where it starts and you can use other channels to amplify that. But like where the real meat is, is in social media.

And like, you can, you know, do some emails, you can do some, some, you know, some direct mail pieces that sort of spin off of that, but it starts there. And that's, what's really different.

Dave Gerhardt: It's, it's also insane. You get, it goes so much deeper than just marketing. Like you get company and product level ideas from writing on LinkedIn, right? You talk about Adam. Adam writes about something related to his like our B2B product and it goes nuts on LinkedIn. That's a signal to him that, oh, people are interested in this stuff.

Or he could write about a new feature or thing that they're doing. So it's not perfect data, but now they have a signal that like, Oh, if we built something like this, people would come. I think it's very underrated as like a company positioning product roadmap feedback tool that you can get this direct feedback for [00:31:00] nothing.

You don't have to go out and do market research and you can use those signals to inform the rest of your business.

Craig Rosenberg: That's awesome, yeah, I mean, I totally, I have nothing to add to that except thank you for bringing that up. That that's really important. All right.

Narrowing Down Your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)
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Craig Rosenberg: So, you know, I would bring up one that I take a picture of this one section of your book, which is the minimum viable market, you know, like the, the, the, um, because what I, the, and we just had a guy named David Politis on, who was like, we asked them again, we had them on like a year ago and we're like, okay, again, what's the thing, the market's missing.

He's like, dude, like a tight. ICP. Like a tight, like there's, you can solve real business problems by doing that. And like, when I read your book, I was like, holy crap, I'm going to try it. I don't have it in front of me, but it was like product marketers. Cause you knew that was your wedge [00:32:00] in the Massachusetts area.

Like you guys like isolated this because you knew you could get to them. Right. And you know, you, you had access to them.

Dave Gerhardt: And people, people hear that and they're like, what does that mean? How did you like write blog posts for product marketers in Massachusetts? Like, well, we, we didn't do that. We, the network that we had was. Okay, we have a strong network here in Boston. Let's go find a product marketer at every single company.

Okay, we're going to start to write content now. We want to do content through experts. We're going to be the curator. So I went and interviewed five, I cold emailed 20 product marketers. We got responses from like five different companies. I picked five. I said, Hey, can I do a 30 minute interview with you about the role of product marketing?

Um, boom. Then we go and create that content. And now those people become the stars of our content. We make them look amazing. They start to spread our word. They don't, we're not trying to sell them anything, right? They, You have to start somewhere. And I think Craig, the reason people don't start with that narrow ICP is because [00:33:00] how, I mean, you talked to your, you're, you're in the venture world, right?

How many founders like, well, yeah, we sell to this one, but we, you know, we also have this use case and we can also do this and that, you know, we always want to show that our product can do more, even if that's true, but for the sake of marketing and getting going, the narrower the, the ICP, the better shrink down that audience to be product marketers in Boston, working in B2B SaaS companies, because when you start there.

You can always add more later. You're learning. Now you're growing. Now we have momentum. Okay. We have momentum among product. Just to build on this example, we have momentum among product marketers in Boston. Well, you know, who's pretty damn similar to product marketers in Boston, like product marketers. on in New York, in San Francisco.

Okay, now we have some, some social proof and some credibility to move off of. And so you can sell your product to multiple personas, which we did at Drift. We started with product marketing and eventually worked all the way through the whole organization, but you have to start somewhere. And I think not being narrow enough is usually the thing that gets in the way from getting initial [00:34:00] traction.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I, I, I mean, that is like a, it's such a key point. I definitely think the market doesn't think that way for the reasons you just mentioned, I forget who it was. It was just telling me, they went in and said, went through a, uh, a narrowing exercise and the C not in my portfolio, FYI, but the CEO flipped out.

Well, we can tell everyone, this is a waste of time and it's like exactly what you just, you know, yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: like the obstacle is the way there. It's like, yes, you could. Now, if everything was selling great and think business was going crazy, then keep doing what you're doing. But usually it's not. And so it's like, Hey, we need to revisit our ICP. It doesn't have to be forever, but why wouldn't you at least try to like make progress?

Cause I also think there's so much to like learning how to win customers in one segment that you can then apply to different segments in different markets. And so start, start there, get some initial traction. And like at [00:35:00] Drift, we didn't do that for eternity. It was like three months, one quarter, we're going to focus on this.

And then it's like juggling. We're going to start with one ball. Okay, now we're gonna add, now we've proven we can do that. Can we add in two? Yep, now we got two. We've proven we can do that. Can we add in a third? Oh, shoot. When we get to three, things start to fall down. It's the same, the same with that.

Craig Rosenberg: And once you guys got wins, cause I remember I was an analyst in space and like the stories were like, well, the CRO came in and said, no, we're getting drift. Yeah. It's not like they were mark, you know, Nessus like quote unquote marketed to in the traditional CRO way. There were use cases out there. That were successful that their, their CRO peer who experienced that was like, you need to get this.

And it was like, because you focused in and got, you know, you, you got success in a place where, you know, I mean, just even the logic behind starting in product marketing, um, was like, I don't know, I'm not sure that's the [00:36:00] first place I would have started with drift, but it was your wedge right in. And then you guys, you know, uh, created that success.

Dave Gerhardt: No, it was really, it was the genius of David, who's the founder. He was like, he was obsessed with, um, Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. And they kind of, their way of thinking is like, you always invert the problem. And so the problem that the company was trying to solve was like, we are making this chat bot and we need to get it installed on the company's website. Okay. So how do we do that? Well, demand gen is not going to do it. Sales doesn't have the key to the website. Engineering doesn't really do it. You know who owns a website at a lot of these companies? The product marketing team. And so the bet was that if we can get product marketers to know us, like us and trust us, when we have a product for them, they actually have the keys to like go in and install this.

And then we can try to expand within the org. But that was like such a lesson for me. And like, damn, that is, that's how you build a strategy right there

Matt Amundson: [00:37:00] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, for sure.

Diving into the Success of Drift's MarketingThe Drift Success Story
---

Matt Amundson: Can we talk about drift for a minute? Just because

Craig Rosenberg: Actually, what you would say is, can we continue this conversation?

Dave Gerhardt: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's right. Cause next, next question. Yeah. Let's talk about it.

Matt Amundson: so I have, I mean, I have a theory on drift and first of all, I have nothing but respect for the business. I think it, you know, I was a customer multiple places, but my theory on drift is it's one of the companies that and there's a few others that I feel the same way. It was driven so largely by the marketing, uh, that, um, It's, it's almost hard to quantify.

And what I mean by that is, sure, the product was great, but was the product really revolutionary? Like I, you know, I bought it and I was like, Oh, okay. It's simple. We installed it. We set it up. It wasn't all that complicated. Like, and so I guess the product is good from that perspective. It's easy to use, but like, you know, I'd had live person before.

I've had other [00:38:00] chats, like they, bot aspect, but like, okay, okay, okay. Good product. Um, yeah. You know, is it a complete and total game changer? I think like it had a run where that space like was, you know, became a very important part of pipeline generation. But the thing about drift that I remember is not necessarily like the product itself or the process of purchasing it.

It is like, I can remember vividly. You know, the brand, the, the logo mark, the word mark. I can remember being at Serious Decisions in Austin, Texas, when the entire booth was pink, the whole thing, like the booth was pink. The text was pink. The carpet in front of it was pink. The people were in pink, like just such well executed brand design.

And it's like, sometimes I'm like, Oh yeah. I remember when I bought. Terminus, or I remember when I bought, you know, this product, Marketo or [00:39:00] whatever, and like, uh, yeah, it worked this way. And I don't really remember Drift as a product. I just remember the brand and it's been so, it's been so long since a brand really dominated a marketing, uh, the marketing site guys, the way Drift did.

So I just want to get into that. Like, I want to talk about the way you branded it. And it, it, it wasn't just a visual, obviously. Because for lack of, uh, well, I think the truth is, is that you and David invented this like, Hey, podcasts for companies. Cause that was such a big deal, right? Like you just, from the outside looking at it, it looked like you guys said, Hey, this is the way people are doing marketing and B2B.

It's boring. It's driven by email. It's driven maybe by like SEO and digital ads. What if we just flip that on its head by, by 90 degrees and just went a completely different way and just everybody's going left. We're going to go right. Like, was that the charge there? Because gosh, it certainly felt like it was.

Dave Gerhardt: [00:40:00] absolutely.

Building a Strong Brand and Content Strategy
---

Dave Gerhardt: I remember the very first conversation that I had with David, maybe like interviewing or early joining the company, he was like, we need to build a brand for this company. And the reason why we need to build a brand for this company is because no one's going to care that we exist because damn it.

There's this, who knows how many tools there are now, but this was like 2015, 2016. We're building a Martech tool. Go to Scott Brinker's landscape and there's 13, 000 other sales and marketing tools. So everyone's going to write out of the gate, be like, how are you different? How are you better? He's like, we're going to win by, we're going to win by building a brand.

And you know, his thing about brand was, he was obviously had a great eye for design and like the visual brand that, and he worked with many people over the years who helped shape that. But he also understood that brand is not just like the visuals and the identity. Now that plays a part in it because when you build, when you get people to know, like, and trust you and it looks sweet, that's like, I'm going to wear your hat, I'm going to wear your hoodie, right?

And [00:41:00] so, but he also understood that we needed to get people to know, like, and trust us through, The other side of brand, which is content, right? It's how we communicate with our market. And so he obsessed over copywriting. He was the one who saw me as a writer and pushed me. I was gonna, I was trying to become like a growth marketer.

He's like, dude, you're an amazing writer and storyteller for us to be successful and for you to be successful, triple down on that skill set. Don't worry about the growth. You can hire somebody else to do that part. And so he pushed me to like, really understand website, copy our email. We were the only company at the time that was like, to your point about standing out at the booth.

We just sent plain text emails for all of our marketing emails and the open rates and click rates were insane because at every other company it was a battle with the creative director because the emails from the company were not on brand. And it's like, well, our emails got opened and read the read them because they are conversational.

So brand was also a lot of little things like that or his idea to start Um, a podcast for the company, not talking about anything that has to do with the company. It was called Seeking Wisdom. He's a proven entrepreneur. He's going to talk to me about [00:42:00] books he's read, lessons he's learned, and that just kind of morphed into this like reality show where we ended up talking about the company.

It's things like that that built the brand. The visual identity is like a stamp on it to make it memorable, but the brand is built through that content and communication. That was his strategy from, from the beginning. Um, I know where you're going in the, in the beginning of that was like, did the, was the marketing better than the product?

And I think there was a time where they, they were both equal, but then I think just, They stopped innovating. The company got, got bigger. I think if it was like that same 50 to a hundred person and they had the hunger and the energy to do all that stuff, I think the product could have definitely kept up.

But yeah, there's probably, you know, probably the marketing was outpaced the product a little bit, just from a perception standpoint. And then the hard part about being in that space is maybe the product was better or maybe it's worse. I don't know. There's, the chatbot thing became such a commodity that like.

Everyone had, everyone had them and everyone was [00:43:00] doing them. And so it's really tough to like feature differentiate. And it's like, I remember we'd get so many questions on the sales side about like, how are you different than intercom? Or then later, how are you different than qualified? And all, all these other companies, it's just like this endless game of how are you different than X, which is also why.

The most important ingredient for a company is that differentiation and that positioning. And that was a part of it in the early days, but you know, things, things change, the market evolves. And now I think about what's, what would have been possible if we had the wave of chat GPT and AI that we have in 2024.

If we had that in 2017 at drift, man, I would have a lot bigger house.

Craig Rosenberg: the way, he didn't mention the incredible videos. I mean, that's how I knew Dave before I knew Dave.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, but there was nothing incredible as literally me on my iPhone talking into the the camera just to what we talked about social [00:44:00] media earlier Oh, look somebody in b2b understands how social media works and nobody else is doing this and LinkedIn just launched a new feature Which is video I would post a video like a regular postman would get like 5, 000 engagements I post a video and get 50, 000 hundred thousand

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: And so they were pushing this stuff early and I'm sending these screenshots to David and showing him the analytics.

He's like, you just got to go all in on this. Like just do a video every single day. That's what I did.

Craig Rosenberg: By the way, that's also a credit to Dave on the, um, the founder side, by the way, like, that's actually not, that's not always the instinct. Like, oftentimes, there's a, there's some kind of friction or fight around, This kind of creative stuff here. Now, granted you were showing the numbers, but like still like good, good on him.

Lots of really good moves that

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. But like what, what does, I guess though, but what does me recording a video on [00:45:00] my iPhone on my commute, walking to work and posting it costs, it costs nothing. There's no time of doing that. That's a false belief. I think.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. But there's a lot of really terrible video being created in particular, folks that aren't sort of natural and keeping it real, so to speak. I mean, yeah, you just be walking the streets and filming yourself. That's hard for folks. And they often, they over like, I don't like it. Overly produced video. I don't like stuff where it's like overly scripted.

Dave Gerhardt: No, but I think we, I think we knew, like, we knew that. And it's like, okay, I'm, I'm natural and comfortable on camera. Like, let's do that. Right. It wouldn't, what, where, what, what's like when you see a company who's trying to do it and it's super cringeworthy, it's like, okay, you have two options. Are you going to train that person and make them better on camera?

Or should maybe just video, maybe video is just not your thing. Like to your point about like Craig, you're the, the audience isn't just, isn't on LinkedIn. Okay. Maybe video is just not your thing. And so I think, okay. There's, this is, I'm just [00:46:00] riffing on this. It's like this meta lesson of the marketing.

Like, I think within a company, any marketing strategy, any, any marketing tactics can work, but you have to look at the ingredients of what you have as a team, personalities, funding, timeline, goals for the company, all those stuff matters. It's like, yeah, we all do it. I write very definitive takes about marketing on LinkedIn, but there's so much nuance inside of a company, right?

Whether they're bootstrapped or profitable or this and that venture backed, right? Maybe they just, you just got to understand where are you going to play with based on the ingredients we have. And I think that was one of the things that we did really well at Drift in the early days was turn those ingredients into an advantage.

David was a well known founder with a strong presence. I talked about it in the book, but that was like the first PR channel. When I started, it was like, where, how are we going to start to get attention in this company? It's like, Oh, founder has 60, 000 Twitter followers and everyone knows him on LinkedIn.

Let's just, let's start there. Cause the ingredients were like right in front of us. Right.

Craig Rosenberg: That's awesome.

An In-depth Review of Craig's Facial Hair
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Craig Rosenberg: By the way, speaking of video issues, um, [00:47:00] I'm noticing that, you know, I don't shave Dave, so like I like to keep a little bit of stubble because my mustache is getting so gray, it looks like I have, I'm watching on video, mustache. Do you agree with that take or?

Dave Gerhardt: Uh, yeah, it looks nice though. I think it works for you.

Craig Rosenberg: I appreciate it. Yeah. That's concerned.

Matt Amundson: Oh my God. Okay.

Dave Gerhardt: Matt land this plane. Matt, take the plane. Is the land the plane again? Matt,

Matt Amundson: Oh, man.

Craig Rosenberg: How to keep it natural here and have fun, Matt.

Matt Amundson: yeah,

Well, I've got my, I've, I've got, I've got my own mustache problems. Like,

Dave Gerhardt: Craig's, just during that whole, during that whole soliloquy I just gave, Craig was just staring at himself in the camera, looking at

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: That's funny. But yeah, no, I have been sort of glancing the grayness, like the, the, the chin music and the mustache is standing out. I'm gonna have to work on that. Um,

Matt Amundson: You're like my, my 12-year-old in the [00:48:00] mirror,

Craig Rosenberg: Um, so, so yeah, sorry guys. I mean, look, it's the, I mean, man, he landed multiple planes here, man. I figured I could ask for a little feedback on the mustache.

Matt Amundson: No, no, no, no, no. It's a fair question. It's a fair question. You should ask. Dave is, Dave is a well known mustache expert, and it's very rare that we have, you know, a person with that level of expertise on the pod. You're well within your rights.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I love it. Um, uh, in your, with your, um, uh, are you getting a lot of founders to subscribe to your stuff and come to your events? Cause it feels like they, I mean, there's so much on the founder side that we can learn from you and in, in your community.

Dave Gerhardt: um, not, not, not really. I think that's, I'm not really focused there. I think if I was like really turning up the vol, like I think I kind of wrote this book about founder brand and then ended up getting [00:49:00] really into and busy with exit five. And so that's the main thing is building that. I have thought about, Oh man, there's a business I could do more.

I could have the founder brand podcast and YouTube and newsletter and all that stuff. I'm just, I'm just not interested in doing that right now. And so I haven't. And so I think by nature of doing exit five, there's kind of, you know, one out of every 10 person is maybe a founder who's curious about B2B marketing, but I'm not really, I'm not really doing anything to attract an audience of people interested in the founder brand topic.

And then plus, since that book came out, the dime a dozen now have started founder brand agencies where they, You know, ghostwrite for the founder, listen to them, dot, and I almost got into that world. But, um, we have a really good thing going with exit five and I am worried about getting myself distracted.

And I think it's very, I'm very competitive and like, I always am kind of looking for the next thing. And I'm trying to force myself to like, just be patient and just work on this thing right now. And so that's kind of what has all my time and attention.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, you do. I mean, like, I, I'm [00:50:00] actually that answer didn't surprise me. I didn't know that wasn't a leading question. It just because Matt, I don't know if you remember, I was like, I'm going to go talk to Dave and see if I can get him to do a webinar with us. Yeah. I got on with him and we were catching up and I go, Hey, do you want to do a webinar?

Dave's like, no, he's like, I'm going to do what I want to do and be really successful at it. I mean, that was, that

Dave Gerhardt: I don't think that conversation was, was, was with you.

Craig Rosenberg: was that a, an AI bot conversation that we were, I know.

Dave Gerhardt: You did send me someone sometime and I was like, Why don't you just join exit five? I don't know if it was you or somebody else, but this one guy asked for a call and I got an intro from somebody. And then basically he just wanted to grill me about how I set up exit five and how we built the community and how many this and that we have.

And I'm like, this was a strange call. So I got out of that one quick, but I don't think that was you, but

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, no, that kid, that doesn't sound like me.

Dave Gerhardt: I'm going to find the paper [00:51:00] trail.

Craig Rosenberg: All right. Well, dude, this was awesome. I, I, uh, I mean, I honestly, like, it's been fun watching you do your thing from thrift to exit five. And,

Dave Gerhardt: why is the podcast called the transaction?

Matt Amundson: Cause we talk, we talk about all kinds of different GTM, uh, strategies that get you to land your next customer. Um, so, you know, we, we got kind of, I've covered everything from PLG to ABM here. And, um, we've actually had quite a few, uh, sales, uh, folks on here talking about, you know, how to be successful closing deals in the current landscape and like, you know, tips and tricks for, for selling as well.

So we just try to cover everything GTM related just with the idea of being, you know, Whatever it takes to get the next transaction.

Dave Gerhardt: Nice. That's cool. Well, yeah. Thanks for having me on. This was nice. Fun to chat, safe space, riff on some marketing ideas.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: I love the safe space. I mean, honestly, I know I was teasing. Oftentimes, Matt, just to let you [00:52:00] know, often when I'm teasing you, it's actually because I'm complimenting you.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah. Isn't that called gaslighting?

Craig Rosenberg: Is that? I, you know, I've heard so much. Oh, man. Anyway, Dave, thanks, man. And we really appreciate you being on. And that was amazing. And this is The

Dave Gerhardt: Yeah, thanks guys. Um, appreciate it. I'll talk to you later.

Matt Amundson: All right. See you, Dave.

[00:53:00]