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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Mujaias, and I'm so excited to welcome back Doctor. Philip Mamalakis, author of this classic Orthodox parenting book, Parenting Toward the Kingdom. Doctor. Mamalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology in Boston, and he's been a longtime collaborator and friend with those of us over here at Faith Tree.
Michelle Moujaes:And most importantly, he's a father of seven children and now a grandfather of two. Today, we're digging deeper into our long term parenting goals because as Orthodox parents, we should ask, like, what does success look like for our kids? What does it look like for us? As always, we're gonna give you practical wisdom. We're gonna have some laughs, and we'll hope to leave you with some real tools to bring faith into your family life.
Michelle Moujaes:Welcome back, Philip.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:I love having you here. So today, we are talking about really success. What does the win look like? That's something we always talk about at Faith Tree. Like, what does a win look like with this project?
Michelle Moujaes:What does a win look like? For us as Orthodox parents, what's the win?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's a great question. And we can get really mixed messages.
Michelle Moujaes:So many mixed messages.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What is success? Yeah. We get it sometimes from the world and even from just people think, well, a win is highly educated kids that are highly successful. And by success, that means financially and you gotta go to the best high schools. You gotta play an instrument, no language.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You gotta be on a traveling sports team.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, with the traveling sports.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It is so hard because you know, you
Michelle Moujaes:So much.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Suddenly you feel guilty. Oh my gosh, we're not doing that. Can I can I just go to church on a Sunday morning, or is my child gonna be not gonna be competitive in soccer? There's also another area we get a lot of pressure. I had a dad tell me he was interviewing me actually for a podcast, and he said he brought his eight year old boy to his mom's house.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And they come in the house. And right when they open the door, the grandmother comes to the door, and the child is supposed to greet the grandmother. Uh-huh. Well, just in that moment, this little eight year old boy looked through the house and saw all the desserts Oh. On the table.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So guess what an eight year old boy did?
Michelle Moujaes:Went straight
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:for Ran right ignored grandma and went right for the dessert. Wow. What is what what what is success? Is success suddenly from grandparents and other people? Oh, your child should not be like that or misbehaving.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What is success? Yeah. Well, when we think what the church reveals to us, right, should we expect a six year old to what? Our goal our goal for that child is that he can see his grandmother and prioritize a person over his impulses and desires. So that's long term success.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Long term success is by the time they leave our home, they know what the important things in life are.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And when we think about the important things, we talk about salvation. We talk about life in Christ. We talk about knowing how to love and seeing people as icons of Christ and making decisions in life that value eternal things. Right? We think about because we know if you go out into the world and you have a clear sense about what these eternal things are, Christ, the values and the virtues of the kingdom of God.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You value people rather than use people for your purposes. You enter into adult life, you're able to control your impulses and desires, right, which allows you to have healthy relationships. Right? So success is this long term process of learning not my will, but God's will. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Learning to obey God, to follow God because God is the source of life. Success is knowing that my identity is wrapped up into being the body of Christ. Like, church is not somewhere I go. Church is who I am. Success is I don't have to be perfect, but I know that growing closer to God helps me to thrive as an individual.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So I'm gonna ask you then. You have now raised seven beautiful children. I've met all of them. Each one is better than the next.
Michelle Moujaes:And by the grace of God, they're all still engaged in the life of the church. They're close to you in Georgia. They're close to each other. Tell me when you look at those seven kids and now you have grandkids. When you if you could name the success of that, what what what does that look like in your house?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I will tell you what success looks like. So my daughter, Alexandra, when she was maybe 16, she started meeting other families and and realizing a lot of families really struggle. So she came home, and she said, dad, I'm so thankful for you and mom. We have such a nice family. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We have such a good family. And I said to her, this is what happens when your dad writes a parenting book. Because I answer her, Alexandra, there is no such thing as good or bad families. Right? There's only families that are repentant and live their family life connected to the life in Christ and families that don't.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because our formula for success now I don't wanna speak for Georgia also. We just fail, and it's not the end of the story. We fail with class. We fail with dignity. We make mistakes exceptionally.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I just know it's not a problem. And all our failures and all our mistakes, you know, when you get a Saturday when nothing has gone right, you know, you've either lost your cool a half a dozen times or you haven't gotten anything done. When you get this overwhelming sense of failure, we know that our failure is never the end of the story. So we were really committed to live our lives connected to the life of the church. So we would do things like learn to ask forgiveness, learn to go to confession.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We would struggle to go to liturgy and understand liturgy. We would struggle to bring liturgy into our home. Like, we'd struggle to do family prayers. And I would like to say I wish I could say that, oh, family prayers, we are all standing there quietly
Michelle Moujaes:In a moment.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:All quietly waiting turns. It looks nothing like that. Yeah. Yeah. Family prayers looks like a a dump truck rolling right through because George wanted to get a dump truck.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then, of course, it was Marcos' truck, so now they're fighting.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Family prayer looks like I, as a parent, pursuing peace in the midst of the chaos. And I told her because I don't want my kids to leave my home thinking, somehow, we have a perfect family. Right. Because then they're gonna compare their life Right. To that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And number two, it's not real. What I want what we want our kids to go away with is that only Christ is life giving, and it's in and through the life of the church. Because then they they will outgrow their parents, but they we don't want them to outgrow the church to realize, oh, everything good that came from our home is not because my mom and dad are great. It's because Christ is great, and my mom and dad would just repent when they do it. So when we think about success, success aren't these external markers that the world give us because some of our kids might actually thrive, you know, being a business person, thrive being an attorney, or god forbid, thrive being a professor, whatever.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But for the others, right, the goal is to find your particular vocation. Right? So people will tell me, you must be so proud of your child because they did x. I'm like, actually, my goal as a dad is, did you find your place? Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the church is gently gonna reject these things of the world. The the church is gonna remind us, seek first the kingdom of God. And so to nurture a home that is seeking first the kingdom of God. And what does that mean? Like, the types of things we talk about.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Are we gonna praise other kids because they got an award or they're doing this, or are we gonna focus our family life on these virtues?
Michelle Moujaes:So tell me what that looks like though because we live in a society where there are lots of awards and lots of accomplishments and accolades and all the things. Right. Right? So if people can use that for the glory of God, amazing. Use it all for the glory of God.
Michelle Moujaes:But as we're raising our kids, help me to put words around that. So is it that we aren't in pursuit of certain things? Like, for example, I'm gonna use one of your kids. One of your kids is a phenomenal ballerina. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:So that's really exciting that she has achieved such heights as a ballerina. Right? So it's okay to go after those things.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So it's a great example because people would tell me, she your daughter made a professional ballet company in The United States and actually in Europe. Aren't you so proud that your daughter is a professional ballerina? And I said, not really. Really? Really?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'm actually happy if she finds her path. And and that daughter, she did ballet, and she recognized this is not what I wanna do with my life.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And she comes to me and says, is it okay? Like, I don't really love this. And I told her, yes. Because all her teachers are saying, oh my gosh. You could dance in Europe.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is the most important thing. And as a as a as a young woman, she was like, well, is there something wrong with me that I'm not dying to do that? And I told her, no. There is nothing wrong. Achieving ballet success is not what the church reveals as actual success.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So then
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So guess what? She quit ballet.
Michelle Moujaes:She did quit ballet.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:She quit ballet. I said, she loves ballet, but she did not wanna be a professional ballerina because it so consumed her. It took her away from what she thought was meaningful. Now some people the church is not against professional ballet. I think the church might be against, you know, 42 nutcrackers that she had to dance in a season.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But but, you know, if that's your vocation but we want and so in the home, how are we talking about success? Are we praising other children because they're on the travel soccer team? Mhmm. Or are we saying we go to church on Sundays? That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. We actually don't do sports Sunday morning because there's something higher than success in the world.
Michelle Moujaes:So tell me then how do we get out of that loop, which, you know, congrats to you in Georgia for not allowing that to be the marker of success for your daughter. But how do we, I mean, you really are swimming upstream when you talk about
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:All the things our kids must do in order for them to thrive in, you know, American culture. Beautiful. So how do you get away from that? What are the practical tangible skills where you can say, you know what? Right.
Michelle Moujaes:That's awesome. You're doing great. But for our family, this is what the wind looks like. How do you do that?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Swimming upstream is exactly what Christ did. That Christ comes into the world and teaches that I am king, but my kingdom is not of this world. He he people expected him to be a worldly king, you know, to to conquer and Yes. To be successful in a worldly sense. And he reveals to us success in a worldly sense is actually not success.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So he teaches us and reveals to us that to thrive as a human being is to recognize worldly success is a temptation, but fullness of life, I would say, thriving families come when we are intentionally pursuing what Christ reveals as success. So recognizing, number one, it is a temptation, and it's a personal temptation for parents, which means
Michelle Moujaes:I think for parents, especially these days, there's a lot of pressure to have winter, winter chicken dinner kids.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And not just from each other, but from our parents Mhmm. Sometimes. And it's really hard to tell the grandparents that, actually, my child doesn't want to do that. Yeah. And but what are we aiming for?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. We are aiming for hard work.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're aiming for discipline. We're aiming for finding your particular vocation.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Offering your talents, working hard. God gave us in intellect. We are we are pro education.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? This is not about sitting and doing nothing.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But it's about recognizing that these are gifts from God, and we're gonna offer them back. So the way we speak in the home about how we how we use our family time. Right? Connecting with persons, recognizing persons as central. All this happening in the life of the church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So when our kids, you know, they're gonna struggle with this. Why can't I play sports?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:My kids say, if I wanna do well, I have to play soccer fourteen months a year. We say, well, if if it conflicts with church, we have to we have to say no. So what I noticed with Georgia and I, it was the church that enabled us to stay strong with all this pressure. Because we saw other families that could see that this seems crazy, but it's really hard to resist.
Michelle Moujaes:It's so hard to resist.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We stay connected to the church and have other families who are doing that. During Lent, we take specific time out. They're like, why are we doing this? Because this is the source of life. This is how we know God.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is who we are. So we don't know how to resist all the pressures without staying in the life of the church and then personal repentance. Actually, going as parents living that life of repentance because we're gonna be tempted, and we're gonna be scared.
Michelle Moujaes:I wanna get a little granular here with you. Are you saying then when you say staying engaged in the life of church, you're talking about the liturgical calendar. So for our family, the win, I hate to use that terminology, but success looks like we are really pursuing an active life with the services. We are fasting with the church calendar. So it's almost like the church calendar is the first lens through which we see the world.
Michelle Moujaes:Would you say that's fair?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yes. The church calendar, the church cycle is the cycle of the family.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Which means we are in church a lot. It's not a twice a year, and it's not actually even just a Sunday. Like, there are other things going on in the church during the week, weekday services, activities that this is our kids are raised with the sense that this family belongs to this community, and this community is our home.
Michelle Moujaes:And that is success when we are a part and in relationship with these people.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:With these and the second part is the church comes into our home.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So we're learning how to say a prayer before meals. Right? We're learning how to do evening prayers. Mhmm. We we might bring in a hymn of this.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We have icons on our walls. When it's our feast day, we have a celebration for the feast day. We bring in the values and the virtues of the kingdom of God.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, we we're trying to be patient. We are trying to be kind. We say forgive me. When we have a struggle, we learn to ask for forgiveness. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is in sense. This is religious education in the home. It doesn't have to be something formal. We're gonna sit down now and do a bible study. Sort of like family prayer doesn't have to be something formal.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's it's set, but it's a little bit messier than that. But, really, what it is is the parents taking their faith seriously in daily life. So I would also add the church the priest comes once a year to bless the home.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? But our kids need to see us living these values and virtues even when we're not in church. Right. Right? So if if if they see a conflict between mom and dad, they see mom and dad asking for forgiveness.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They see mom and dad listening to each other, not in power struggles.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because they listen, and they see mom and dad listening to the priest. Mhmm. Because when a mom and a dad who are in charge of the house, we are king and queen of our home, we teach our kids we're a different type of king. We're not a worldly king.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Remember, the worldly way is power and control. Oh, when you're king and queen of your home, you are a servant king, and you're also obedient to the priest, to the church, and to God. And so our kids get a sense that success is this is a family learning and growing in Christ. And from there, we realize we don't have to control their behavior. Because remember, the other temptation is success is my eight year old doesn't run to the table for dessert.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, actually not. Success is not a compliant child. Success is not a perfect child. Success is a child who's learning. So imagine that situation with the kid who runs in, and the the the grandma's gonna be like, what kind of child do you have?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, for the parent, it's, oh, there is nothing wrong. My child is learning, and I'm teaching. So what it might look like is you take a deep breath. It's always the first step. You might go to him and say, Johnny, before we go dessert, we go say hi to grandma.
Michelle Moujaes:Great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You redirect. You move him back. You're not mad. You're not angry. You're a little embarrassed, but
Michelle Moujaes:you're Sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Kind of distracting yourself, and you're realizing that is success.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He is learning. He goes back, and he says, sorry. He says, hi, yaya. He gets a hug. When can we have dessert?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And Yaya's grandma says, after dinner. Success is that ongoing process of learning.
Michelle Moujaes:So how can parents free themselves from this idea that that should happen really thoroughly and early on? Because Immediately. Yeah. I mean, we want to kinda skip the investment in those lessons because we do get embarrassed or we do feel like we wanna have kids that actually present themselves as others focused, right, who know to greet their grandmother.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Why do we want all that? Once we reflect for a minute on we want kids to be a certain way, they become a thing
Michelle Moujaes:Fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:For us. Parenting is about discovering that I have that instinct and repenting. A good parent is responsive to a child no matter how they misbehave or behave. We are gonna be because we're always teaching. So I know that's a pressure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So where I go to church, when my kids were young and my kid would misbehave, I would actually be secretly happy. Because I know when a child misbehaves if you're a parent in church and some kid does something, our first instinct is, is it my child? Right? Oh my gosh. And once it's not your child, you're like, oh, thank god.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. Yeah. Right? So I realized if my child is the one behaving, I just gave peace to every other parent in the church. And then the second thing is we all have this pressure that we should know what to do.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We should our kids should be compliant, and that's horrible. Horrible. Horrible. How can I teach every parent that that's not our goal is when the guy who wrote the parenting book has a kid who's melting down?
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I wanna show him, actually, a parent is responsive to a kid who's melting down. So my job is to stay peaceful, go to my melting down child, and just engage them and maybe remove them, maybe, you know, usually remove them if it's in church right away, but to stay peaceful as if there's no problem. Because our children are not problems to fix or tasks to accomplish. But they're persons who, for some reason, is having a meltdown in church, which when you're four is entirely appropriate. Now when you're 40, we should probably talk to you.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But yeah. So this is how we engage as a Christian community. One of the reasons that we wrote a companion guide to the to the book
Michelle Moujaes:have it. Hold on. I'll show everybody.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because there is so much pressure This is the we go to church to behave, and then we're so embarrassed when our children, who aren't poisoned by this kind of toxic pride, are just interacting. And that undermines the very heart of the Christian community.
Michelle Moujaes:How can we teach our children that this is the expected behavior when you walk into grandma's house? This is the expected behavior in the church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:And kind of
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is our role is to teach that, which means, like you said earlier, we don't expect mastery. We expect learning.
Michelle Moujaes:Learning.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because they do need to learn how to behave at the church. And you know what? That boy needs to learn. You do not run to the table of desserts. You greet him.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, because there's a deeper principle. Right? I want him to grow up to see persons.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? So we want to teach, and we do that in every interaction. So how do we do it? We are we prepare them beforehand. On the way to church, we have a conversation.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How we behave in church? Right? Because if we expect learning, we wanna invite our children to reflect, to start paying attention. Where am I going, and how am I called to behave? Because kids can learn really well.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is a gym. This is how you play in a gym, and this is a library. This is how you behave in a library. Mhmm. They they do fine.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:This is grandparents' house. This is our house. This is church. This is a park. They really can learn that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I love it. Some of the strategies are prepare beforehand. And we don't just lecture them. Here's what I want you to do in church. You ask a question.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Alright. Reminders. How do we behave in church? Because, you know, they it's every Sunday. They hear it all the time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then invariably, you nurture a culture of reflecting.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we're strict because that we don't say.
Michelle Moujaes:You nurture a culture of reflecting even in your young ones.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Even in your three or four year olds. Because if they have an older six year old sibling, they know the answer, but it it communicates to your child, you are perfectly capable to think about this. I even don't need to repeat myself because we talked about it last Sunday. And then it they feel respected, like they're being talked to like a human being. Now will that get us compliance in church?
Michelle Moujaes:No. Not every time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Not every time. So when they fail, we step in, we escort them, and then on the way home, we talk about it after. So preparing beforehand and then talking about
Michelle Moujaes:it after. I like it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Same thing with going to a grocery store. Same thing with going to a restaurant. Same thing with going to grandparents' house. That nurtures a culture of learning. Success for us as Orthodox means that ongoing learning.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because a disciple, remember, disciple, the translation is student. And for us as Orthodox, when we talk about learning, we talk about you're gonna make a mistake, but we're gonna do something different again.
Michelle Moujaes:I remember we worked together on Lionheart sessions, which is Faith Tree's study for Christian manhood. And one of the things you taught me as we were creating that, if you can believe it, over a decade ago, was the idea of becoming. I love this idea that, you know, we're not just born and it's all set up, but we are constantly becoming. In that case, it was becoming Christian men, but this is really becoming a family that learns. I like that.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then What's beautiful is when do we stop doing that? Like, this this beautiful series on parenting is us learning how to be parents. And if if if people learn one thing, it's parenting is a process of ongoing learning. Mhmm. We're we're becoming more patient, more kind, more gentle.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're becoming holy. Mhmm. We're we're becoming closer to God. Right? So that takes away this expectation that I should already know.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I have to be perfect. My kids should already know. My kids should already be perfect. Yeah. And that's really hard, but that's alright.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because in the life of the church, when we continue to nurture communities of people who we are not perfect, but we worship a perfect god, we are invited to love and to repent, not to try harder to be perfect.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That frees us up that when our kids fail, we are less likely to freak out.
Michelle Moujaes:Right. Right. Right. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Which means when our kids fail and we do freak out, that's about us as parents thinking, is that my perfectionism that's causing me to freak out?
Michelle Moujaes:I mean, perfectionism is a real thing. And in this culture, I think, you know, I have four kids. Two of them are off to college, and I still have one in middle school and one in high school. And the difference between the first two and what I'm seeing now with the eighth grader, it's so interesting to me how failure was kind of a possibility there, but god forbid now. I mean, failure, it feels like it comes with all sorts of crazy consequences.
Michelle Moujaes:They're never gonna go to college or they could have poor mental health or you wanna be sure. Like, it seems so extreme now that we've just gotta nail it. I wonder why is that?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, it's hard to discount the role of social media.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's true.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because think about where do we get our ideas? Well, by the places we go and the people we see. And how do we how do we raise our families as the places they go as church, and the people they see are other people on this journey. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But once we have such exposure to a distortion of reality Mhmm. Right, that cannot not have an effect like how we're supposed to live. So it's it's easy to be scared of social media and scared of these changes. But in fact, we worship a god who is stronger than all these forces.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really important for people to hear because we we have listen. Anybody who knows me knows I have pretty extreme feelings about social media. But I do think it's important to know that, like, it's gonna be okay, everyone.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We can all take a breath. Exactly. Is when we keep our lives centered in this, they taste what's good. They they're in the liturgy. The liturgy isn't our home.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's like a seamless union such that we are we don't go home and then forget everything we talk about in church. We go home, this is really a place where we're trying to listen, where we we can repent when we fail. It's not a church. It's a place where we dress nicely and act perfectly. It's a place where we struggle, but we say I'm sorry.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we actually are constantly we're being reminded of patience, kindness, gentleness. Right? That is so powerful that even when our kids go out of the world, they'll see this. They're like, oh, that doesn't seem right.
Michelle Moujaes:Off. Yeah. I actually think that the idea of having a constant family learning culture helpful because your kid's always changing. The world's always changing. You have grandkids.
Michelle Moujaes:It looks different then. So I think that only makes sense that that would be what we pursue as parents.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Think about that success is if I can communicate we can communicate as parents now at our age that we are still learning. Mhmm. Because the the temptation for me, the pressure on me as a guy is, oh, you're a dad. You're an authority figure. You should know.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You should know. Yeah. And that's a lie. So if I pretend that I know things and I have my act together, you know, that feels good. But when my son gets to be my age, he's gonna realize, I don't really know everything.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How does that prepare him? So I think it's important for me to Great. Disclose to you know, I really don't know what to do.
Michelle Moujaes:No clue.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. I actually think I screwed up. You know, that was really a mistake I made.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And and then he sees, what do I do when I don't know what to do? Actually, I take a deep breath. I say a prayer. I go ask for help. I ask for guidance.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What do I do when I make a mistake? Mhmm. I feel bad. I say, forgive me. I make a plan to make it right, and I try again.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then I involve my priest. So now we are preparing our kids for that. We are preparing our kids to know when they leave our homes, what to do when they make a mistake. Got it. And the way to only way to do that is allowing them to make mistakes and teaching them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then by modeling, like, we're gonna teach them what it means to be an adult who makes mistakes. Because the second lie is once they leave our home, then they will never make mistakes.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Successful parents have kids when their young adults never make mistakes. How is that even possible?
Michelle Moujaes:It's totally not possible.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And but we believe this. So then when our young adult kids make mistakes, we go ballistic. Like, how could this happen?
Michelle Moujaes:And we forget that we make mistakes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like Of course, we do.
Michelle Moujaes:I say to my kids all the time, listen. I'm totally comfortable with my sins, but I hate yours. Right? I don't but, I mean, it's important to know. Like, of course, they're gonna mess up.
Michelle Moujaes:I mess up every single day.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So what is success? Success is raising children who know what to do when they make mistakes. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things we want them to do is come to us and say, I have no idea.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think I screwed up. So how do we teach that? In the interactions, in their mistakes during when they're young and as they grow up. And then by modeling for them, what do we do when we fail? So it creates a culture of learning
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That actually prepares them for a lifetime of learning.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. I love it. One of the things that I know the church, teaches so beautifully is always on kind of being in the balance or the middle way. Like, we don't wanna be on the extremes of, you being really overzealous or being really, you know, apathetic to either thing. You know, I know Paul and Cindy Caros talk about this a lot in their work on parenting.
Michelle Moujaes:What what do you have as way as far as advice goes for parents to kind of keep themselves? Like, well, yeah, you wanna pursue excellence, but you don't wanna be controlled by the pursuit of excellence. Right? Because when the world, and the messaging and the media that we get is you have to have all the things. Like Right.
Michelle Moujaes:To get into kindergarten is what most of us did to get into, like
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:Grad school.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:It's so different now. So how do we how do we keep ourselves in balance in the pursuit of that middle way? Any thoughts on that?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:One of the big things I think is parents often don't realize the power of modeling.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, our kids are really watching how we live, and they're they can they know what we value. Right? And if we focus on living a life that is focused on the kingdom of God, we're still working hard. So they will see us working hard, actually working long hours, but that's not really our primary identity. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They'll see us, you know, doing our best. Right? They'll see us doing we model for them how to both pursue excellence but not get caught up in these worldly values. And the way we do that is under consultation with a priest spiritual father, in conversations with our spouse, with our inner circle to help us pursue excellence, do good things. We need to earn money.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? We need to if you have talent, we wanna be good stewards of that. Right. I think at the heart of it is doing that ourselves. And then having a relationship with them, so they're coming in and they're saying, like my daughter who did ballet, everyone around me is doing this.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I asked her, well, what do you think? And she had a sense, and I said, that's good.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Modeling and relationship under guidance.
Michelle Moujaes:That's all. That. So is there an order to how you would or how you have, I should say, kinda coached your children? So we know that we are part of a church community first. We know that modeling is a really big part.
Michelle Moujaes:Being repentant is a really big part. Is there some sort of discovery process that you went through with all seven? Like, okay. Let's see what God called you to do, and then how are we gonna steward that? And for you, it's, like, really extreme, and you may go to Europe to do this thing and 42 nutcrackers.
Michelle Moujaes:But for you, maybe it's that you do this other thing. Like, how do you make those decisions in the moment? Is there a preplanning? Like, what did you and Georgia do? What were your conversations?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I'll tell you my strategy. Okay. I love it. Okay. Because my strategy is I have no idea.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. There he goes. Yeah. Good. Like, who knows?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Good.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, you come at it with, how am I supposed to know?
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And you don't know if you're doing it too much or too little. So I'm just really good at accepting that. I think I shouldn't know.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I've gotten so good at saying, if I don't know you know, if god wants me to know, he would tell me. Which means I have to stay in close relationship with my kids because we're gonna figure it out together.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And so you you walk with your child. Right? And if you're free to not know and you're free to make mistakes, then you're free to say this seems to be working and this seems to not be.
Michelle Moujaes:With no judgment or shame or guilt or drama.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I love kids, you no. You have to sit down and study for this. This is and it is important to practice piano.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's not really a worldly value. It's just a it's hard, and I'm gonna force you how to do that. Good. Right? And so we're constantly kind of calibrating.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? It's like we don't want laziness Mm-mm. But you don't want obsession.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the answer is relationship. Lots of touch points as I navigate that path. And so we've trial and error. From there, it's trial and error because what's there's another little factor here. One of your children might be really driven and intense and kinda like all that.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I have a daughter who, when she was 12 years old, she says, I wanna throw my own birthday party for my friends. I'm like, okay. And she's laid off.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you also. Because you didn't really know how
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:to do that. Got the until we got the the bill.
Michelle Moujaes:The bill. There you go.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How much is this gonna cost us? But you kinda let her go, and she had the whole planche. And I didn't know. Was I too indulgent? Should I put a stop to it?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. And then another child be like, man, I don't really want a crazy birthday party. I kinda wanna just this. Because each child is different.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so being free to not know but to stay in relationship
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Within that I find it interesting. Navigate.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. When you have kids that have such different I mean, I have four, and each one of them have such different inclinations and such different ideas about what is good or how they would be, you know Right. Give value in the world. But it really does bring up different conversations for my husband, Walid, and I because for that one, we might, you know, be saying, you know what? Let's take a breath.
Michelle Moujaes:We're we're hustling a little too hard over here. And this one, we might be saying, you know what? We need to get a little fire in there. Right. Gotta pursue success.
Michelle Moujaes:But it is interesting how each
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:one Yeah. So I think we need to be growing as parents. Mhmm. Because we have blind spots. We have our own things that we need to heal from.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then we just stay in relationship, and we're, like, constantly correcting.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Remember, the goal is to be responsive, and that is success. Responsive to our children, responsive to God, responsive to our spouse. Yeah. And that responsive relationship allows us allows the holy spirit to do the working in our kids.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. My favorite thing so far that we've talked about is that if we are free from that, you know, perfection and we're free to make mistakes and free to repent Right. Then that's a sweet spot.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we're free to stay close and stay in relationships.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Let me look at some questions. Oh, here's a good one. We got a bunch of questions from our audience. This one, Debbie asks, how do I get my kids to tell the truth and to understand the importance of doing so?
Michelle Moujaes:Kinda goes with what we're saying.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It does. It does. Because if we're talking about learning, that one of the things they need to learn is to tell the truth. And in my situation, not every child struggled with this, but some some really do.
Michelle Moujaes:I had a kid who's a total liar.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It was awesome. And it's and so the first step is to be curious about why. Why? What's going on with them? Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because oftentimes, if if I'm really intense and I notice if a child is really sensitive, it's scary to tell the truth. And not all my kids have the same level of sensitivity.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Some don't really care if they get in trouble. Others are like, dead.
Michelle Moujaes:Please don't. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so sometimes if they're really sensitive, they might be fearful. So one of the things we do is we recognize this is my kid's struggle, and we tend to back out. I tend to back off, and you the idea is to come alongside. When you notice there's something, you kinda just gently check-in, and you let it ride a little bit.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the other thing that happens in parenting is we don't need to do everything overnight. Wanna learn to tell the truth over time.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so when that's another thing that takes the pressure off of us. And so if we notice it, we can reflect, we can draw, we can have good touch points, we can teach the value of telling the truth.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then when we have a situation where they are actually caught in a lie, we we can say very little and just gently draw close. So we never ask a child, did you say that? Did you tell the truth? Because someone who's having a hard time telling the truth, that's you're just kinda tempting them to lie again. We say things like, I know this happened.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? I know it. I'm not asking if you did it, and then we give a discipline of some sort.
Michelle Moujaes:You know what we used to do when we did? So our son was two or three at the time. He's hilarious, but he I mean, he would like we we couldn't quite figure out why he was, like, stretching the truth on things because we didn't feel like he had the need. Like, we felt like we made it pretty safe for him to tell the truth. But okay.
Michelle Moujaes:Did you eat that? Or did you whatever the And thing when he would come and say, mommy, I ate that. We'd say, you told the truth. And we would celebrate because
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:See that? And now you're reinforcing
Michelle Moujaes:little bit of encouragement.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Reinforcing that. Yeah. So will that fix it overnight? Nope. No.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But it forms him over time.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And there was I think for for I I mean, he's older now. I won't tell you which son he is, but he actually probably values the truth more than anyone in our household. Like, he is just an extreme truth teller. Not in, a weird, creepy way that's always hurtful, although sometimes.
Michelle Moujaes:But, yeah, he very much he very much appreciates it, and I think he had to go through that process to figure out
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:what was. So what is success and what is failure? Because you see our kids will struggle with things Yeah. That are actually beautiful. That's the learning process.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. And our kids are different. And so you end up with something beautiful, which means we have to redefine, like, good and bad.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's right. That's an important thing for our
Michelle Moujaes:child to
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:go through. And that changes our attitude so we're more likely just to be peaceful and join them.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Alright. So let's oh, this is a good one. This is from Suheyo. My daughter's mother and I are divorced.
Michelle Moujaes:We are not on the same page about almost anything, certainly not about participating in church life. Do you have any advice on how I could find peace with someone and keep my daughter in church even if it's inconsistent and even if my ex is speaking so poorly about it? That's so interesting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's a great question. I'm so glad you have that because we wanna really think parenting isn't just about two parents in the home parenting. Right. It's about single parenting Yeah. Which is a unique kind of path, and this is coparenting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And so in general, husbands and wives in a home are gonna have differences.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's just a lot more complicated when they are in separate homes. Right? So number one, we have to rec remind ourselves, like we said, that the truth is the strongest force in the universe.
Michelle Moujaes:Nice.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That Christ's love is what we're all created for. So the goal of parenting is to give our kids a taste of that truth rather than attacking and condemning and speaking out against untruth. And I say that because it's most important how this dad lives in his home in relationship to his daughter connected to the church than it is what the other parent is doing. Meaning, you should create a space in your home where this child is free, from some of the real challenges of growing up in a situation like that. So do things like never inquire into the other parent where it looks like you're investigating.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Never say anything negative about the other parent. Never compare. If the child has a struggle, never criticize the other parent. If he can create a home where this child is free to love the mom and is free to struggle, and he can take his own feelings about the other parent out of the equation and focus on just this child, how we're all learning patience. And if if if this parent can learn to forgive and to pray for the other parent, you suddenly, this this this home will be a place where this child is now free just like we were talking about to grow and to grow in love.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And when that home is connected to the church, it's actually okay if they don't come every week. Like, how much time does God need to transform a child? Right? God works miracles, and the darker it gets, the more powerful the light. So the temptation in situations like this is to fear.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The temptation is to fear what the other person's doing. The temptation is to hate. Right? The temptation is to think about good versus evil. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Those are all temptations because we can get sucked into we think it's our job to fight evil or to speak out to evil. No. It's our job to love. And so there are ways that a community can support single parents and affirm them and to and, you know, assist them. Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:To live in that love so that in this home, the child will taste something different. Mhmm. And what that child will taste is what their souls are created for. I love it. That's how we help them.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. I love it. And a special invitation to churches to really Right. Be invested in and walk that path with
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:single ways. Welcome Yes. These families that have more need. Because, again, the temptation is suddenly if I have a broken home, I can't go to church anymore.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Which flies in the face of what Christ teaches us and our true identity. Church is not for intact families who pretend they have together.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Church is for all of us.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We need to recognize our brokenness to be as healed in Christ and community.
Michelle Moujaes:Philip, it's like drinking from a fire hose. Thank you so much for your wisdom and time and for sharing your, vast knowledge and experience with us. We
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:really appreciate it. Having me here, and thanks for what you do.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you. And thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. Every week, we're here to help you raise children who know Christ, who love him, and who spend their whole life trying to be like him. And, hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you do us a favor?
Michelle Moujaes:Consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend, and here's why. When you do, it helps more families just like yours find the show. And one last thing, if you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes or by going to faithtree.orgbackslashparenting. This guide is a free gift to you and your family, and it's just a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we talked about today with your spouse, with your friends, or your community at church. Check it out, and we will see you the next time.