Marketing UnLearned

In this episode of Marketing Unlearned, we dive into the transformative world of digital marketing strategies with a focus on retail media at John Lewis. Join Ian Jindal as he converses with Jemms, Kaitlin  and Vic, who share their insights on evolving retail media capabilities, the importance of a win-win-win approach, and the challenges of integrating new technologies. Discover how John Lewis is leading the charge in digital performance marketing and what it means for the future of retail media. Tune in for an engaging discussion on innovation, strategy, and the exciting opportunities in the retail media landscape.

Who, what, where?

- Jemma Haley, Retail Media Business & Proposition Strategy at The John Lewis Partnership
- Kaitlin Craig, Retail Media Proposition Manager (Digital Channels) at John Lewis and Waitrose
- Victoria Peopall, Client Success Director, Epsilon Retail Media
- Ian Jindal, Founder at RetailX

- RetailX (research and executive network at www.retailx.net; events and podcasting at www.retailx.events)
- Epsilon - www.epsilon.com
- Media partner, InternetRetailing, at www.internetretailing.net

Creators and Guests

Host
Ian Jindal
Founder of RetailX

What is Marketing UnLearned?

Marketing UnLearned explores the challenges the leading-edge digital marketing poses to established and received wisdom.

All new initiatives, until proven, are subject to scrutiny and challenge: the ‘waddabouts’, the statements of inertia, the “why bother?”, the deprioritising questions. Within these challenges there is often a grain of truth, but in this series we’ll take the challenges head on and learn how the exemplars deliver persuasively - perhaps changing our thinking along the way.

In partnership with Epsilon our first series will focus on innovation in the areas of retail media, digital advertising, CRM, and personalisation. We’ll speak with 10 expert practitioners who have moved beyond the optimised and well-know digital marketing processes. More than a simple ‘always sunny at 30,000ft’ case study, we’ll put the challenges to our guests and hear how they were overcome, how their thinking developed and learn about the ‘new state of the art’. While we may UnLearn some pieces of accepted wisdom, we’ll replace them with new, effective learning. Everyone wins with Marketing UnLearned.

## **Epsilon – Episode 2 – 2025-08-06 (Edited Minutes)**

**Ian:** The one thing to be aware of is knocking the table. If you want to be emphatic, hands are fine, but try to avoid rustling. No one's going to sue us, but we want that radio‑quality sound.

**Kaitlin:** We can't help ourselves.

**Ian:** Hello dear listener, welcome back to the studio for another episode of *Marketing and Learned*. I was going to say which number, but frankly I don’t know, so it’s just another episode. Squashed into the studio, full of the joys of life, I’m joined today by Jemma, Kaitlin, and Vic.

Rather than me introduce you, which is boring, why don’t you each tell us who you are. Kaitlin, you’re furthest away, so start us off. Then we’ll hear from Jemma and Vic.

**Kaitlin:** Hello listeners. I’m Kaitlin. My background is across digital marketing and e‑commerce. I started with two major UK retailers, Dunelm and Hotel Chocolat. I’ve been at the John Lewis Partnership for almost three years, working in the retail media space as Digital Proposition Manager. That’s predominantly across offsite, but I also lean into onsite media. Onsite is such a beast, and at the Partnership we’re trying to transform it, evolve it, and make it a really successful business. I’ll hand over to Jemma.

**Jemma:** Hi everyone. I head up the Proposition Strategy and Development team at the John Lewis Partnership. We’re a central team responsible for driving transformation in our retail media capabilities across both Waitrose and John Lewis. I’ve worked in retail media for about 15 years.

**Ian:** Fifteen years? For those who think retail media started 22 months ago…

**Jemma:** I started in media sales. One of my first jobs in London was with Redwood, who looked after *Boots Media Magazine* – and other titles like Virgin Media and Homebase. That was my first foray into retail media, working with Boots on things like the Baby Club and formats including e‑newsletters, with clients such as Unilever.

I then spent eight years at dunnhumby, a global leader in customer data science, in various retail media roles. I began in commercial media planning for brands like PepsiCo and Coca-Cola – planning, executing, and measuring multichannel campaigns. I then moved sideways into media product development.

A “media product” is a proposition created and monetised with suppliers, underpinned by the platform that powers it. Around 2018, dunnhumby acquired a DSP called Sociomantic. We ran the first trials using Tesco Clubcard first‑party data for offsite programmatic campaigns. I managed that partnership, scaling learnings, doing closed‑loop measurement, and building a lot of what Tesco offers today. I also managed their personalised offers platform – data‑science driven coupons – used by retailers worldwide. Later, I moved into a global consulting role, helping retailers assess their retail media capabilities, set up operating models, and take propositions to market. That led me to the Partnership.

**Ian:** So you’re bestriding programmatic, digital, and cutting‑edge marketing – then the phone rings about a job at John Lewis. What made you swap Pepsi and coupons for John Lewis?

**Jemma:** Three years ago, while still at dunnhumby, I spent six months consulting with the John Lewis customer team. I assessed their retail media business, identified challenges and opportunities, and created a “blueprint” for future development. During that project, I saw the scale of opportunity at John Lewis. At the end of the work, a role came up to work with my former colleague Tom Langley, now Head of Retail Media, to transform the business: set up a central function, build operating models and propositions, and drive capability forward.

**Ian:** And that’s when your blood started turning Partnership green. Vic – over to you.

**Victoria:** My three and a half years will be a funny follow to Jemma’s 15. I’m Client Success Director at Epsilon. I started my career at Just Eat, selling to brands and then managing promoted placement for them. Probably my first dip into retail media, though I didn’t know it then.

I later joined Epsilon in account management across multiple retailers. My role is to work with retailers and brands on transformations toward a retail media offering – making sure the tech can power the proposition. I work closely with Kaitlin and Jemma on turning ideas into deliverable tech‑powered solutions.

**Ian:** In a sentence, Epsilon?

**Victoria:** We have one of the UK’s largest core ID networks. We’re a data partner to retailers and brands – helping them activate first‑party data‑based strategies in line with business ambitions.

***

**Ian:** Let’s focus on John Lewis. Nearly everyone listening will be a John Lewis customer, but not many know about the internal journey. Picking up from your consulting period, Jemma: why did retail media merit its own team and focus rather than just being handled by PPC and display teams?

**Jemma:** Before we came along, both Waitrose and John Lewis had spent a decade monetising different aspects of the customer journey – coupons, in‑store media, magazines, onsite placements – plus the famous digital campaigns. Suppliers increasingly wanted to be involved, and teams naturally monetised more, growing steadily.

Meanwhile, retail media’s industry profile exploded. Competitors moved ahead – leveraging first‑party data better, developing closed‑loop measurement, structuring supplier servicing, and marketing more mature propositions. We were doing good things, but weren’t set up for success or strategically directed toward the next level. That’s why the consulting review happened: to assess current maturity and the potential if we invested.

**Victoria:** How do you balance the constant noise of industry announcements with your own North Star?

**Kaitlin:** Our brand is loved by UK consumers. When competitors announce advances, it could be easy to drop everything and copy them. As a proposition team, we always ask: is that right for our customers and for our brand? We want to move and evolve fast – but in ways that are right.

**Ian:** How do you turn “what’s right for the customer” into an operational framework everyone follows without endless meetings?

**Kaitlin:** In retail media, we focus on *win‑win‑win*: a win for the supplier, a win for the customer (e.g., a personalised experience onsite), and a win for our brand objectives. We also work with channels and must align with their goals. If an idea doesn’t meet all three wins, we question it.

**Ian:** How is that managed day to day?

**Jemma:** The right governance with the right teams. We work closely with customer marketing teams at both brands, keeping them aligned with our roadmap, involving stakeholders in processes like RFPs, and ensuring understanding of goals.

**Ian:** Aligning internally within John Lewis is one thing, but the Partnership has both John Lewis and Waitrose – very different businesses. How does that work?

**Kaitlin:** It’s not easy. We don’t just tick “win‑win‑win” in a room and agree instantly. There are challenging conversations. Sometimes one win outweighs another, and difficult decisions have to be made, especially across both brands in different sectors.

**Jemma:** That’s why we pick vendors who can work for both a premium grocer and a mid‑premium department store, understanding complex, different customer journeys.

**Victoria:** People often think complexity is all in the data and integration. But the underpinning processes – creative approval, audience strategy – require nuanced, specific approaches for each brand.

***

**Ian:** Let’s talk realities. From outside, retail media is the fashionable, well‑funded new discipline. What’s it really like settling in, and how has it affected the broader marketing setup?

**Kaitlin:** Both brands already ran digital marketing successfully. Retail media enhances the brand experience and gives suppliers new opportunities to show up, while reinforcing our own brand voice. We work alongside existing teams to enhance, not disrupt.

**Ian:** And under your remit you have…?

**Jemma:** Every monetised touchpoint across the customer journey:
- Onsite media (e‑commerce)
- Offsite media (paid social, programmatic)
- CRM and loyalty (monetised parts and personalised offers via dunnhumby)
- Store media (e.g., JCDecaux screens in Waitrose, in‑store POS, magazines).

We optimise existing propositions, engage long‑term partners like Epsilon, and raise maturity to meet supplier needs.

***

**Ian:** How do you work together with Epsilon?

**Victoria:** We aim to be embedded as an extension of the retailer’s brand – in‑person, in‑office, understanding specific goals. Without that, you get a generic approach.

***

**Ian:** Thinking back to 2022 when you started, what have you had to relearn or unlearn?

**Kaitlin:** Everything takes longer than you think. You need buffers in timelines – and you’re coordinating multiple internal teams, tech/data partners, and agencies while managing expectations and revenue targets. Launch is just the start; feedback from brands quickly builds the optimisation roadmap.

**Jemma:** As a consultant, it’s easier to tell people “best practice”; making it work in‑house is completely different, especially across two brands. Many ad‑tech integrations are sold as “plug and play” but aren’t. For example, we had 100% manual processes for planning, booking, activation, and billing. We’ve spent 18 months implementing an OMS system with Kevel – involving many teams. My learning: focus early on aligning internal processes with the tool’s design, rather than bending the tool to existing processes.

**Victoria:** In building a retail media team, are there particular mindsets you hire for?

**Kaitlin:** “Yes to the mess.” Rip up the job spec, muck in.

**Jemma:** Change is messy; you must be pragmatic, pick up whatever job needs doing, and work together.

**Kaitlin:** Education and over‑communication with stakeholders is also key, so the “mess” doesn’t spill into their day‑to‑day.

***

**Ian:** Looking ahead – what’s top of your list to get cracking on? And Kaitlin, also – what’s your pitch to a graduate to join retail media?

**Kaitlin:** There’s so much opportunity. For juniors, we invest in training for this new industry – skills you may not get in established sectors. Tech improvements are reducing the labour‑intensive admin, freeing people to be creative with big brands and innovative plans.

**Jemma:** Retail media offers richer data and insights than many marketing roles. At the Partnership, with dunnhumby’s Customer Insights Platform, we’re pivoting from transactional sales to insight‑led partnerships – creating more intelligent, impactful campaigns with closed‑loop measurement.

**Victoria:** For me, the priority is working closely with Kaitlin and Jemma to bring the offsite proposition to life. I’ll shed a tear of joy when the first campaign goes live.

**Jemma:** I’m excited to scale this partnership – we’re already getting bookings and strong sales team feedback. Plus, rolling out the new internal tool, and testing connected digital store propositions across both brands.

**Kaitlin:** I’m excited about both offsite and onsite capabilities – aiming for a unified, market‑leading retail media solution, with some big launches planned for our golden quarter.