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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Negative attention is also attention. Like, that also gives you eyeballs on your brand. But I really think that's an overestimation again of what branding can do because it will not for for a brand as well known as Jaguar, like, having more people see it will not necessarily mean that more people will buy a car, that car in particular.
Tyler:Yeah. And I think like I mean, the definition of branding, right, it's like We are
Nick:kind of live now. This is what I always want to say. We are live. And we're officially live. We are officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's talk about branding today.
Nick:Perhaps one of the most under underestimated, overestimated, and misunderstood thing in the design world, and we've seen that happen recently in the whole liquid glass discussion. You know, is it something you see too, like branding being misunderstood?
Tyler:Yes. I think branding has become, I think, more important these days. And because of its importance, I think people deploy it well and oftentimes not so well just because they don't
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Truly understand what branding is.
Nick:Mhmm. Feels like in today's AI age that branding is the one thing for you to stand out above the general AI slob, I would say, and to make full use of it while we at least have to understand what it is.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, because AI facilitates, like, the creation of all these new products. So someone with low technical skill can create anything they want, but creating a product requires creating a company, and along with that is having a strong brand. Mhmm. But if you don't have that diff I think design at the end of the day is, like, the big differentiator.
Tyler:So if you don't have properly executed brand, it doesn't separate you from the line of other products. Better your competitors.
Nick:Yeah. True. So that's that's the power of branding, but at the same time, I also think people can overestimate branding, you know, like we've seen with the the earlier this year or end of last year item. Not really sure, but with the whole Jaguar rebranding. Remember the the colorful videos?
Nick:And I do. I do. The the logo, and it's really been a divider within the design community and outside of the design community with some people saying, oh, this is great. This is perfect. They're looking at a younger audience.
Nick:It's much better than it used to be. And then some people were like, look at one of those letters, the a or the u. Like, it's not aligned properly. You know? So some people were like, you know, this is way too much, and some people were like, yes.
Nick:This is perfect, which makes me think, like, on the overestimation part of it. Like, do you think a new logo and different colors will sell more or less or equal luxury expensive luxury cars?
Tyler:Yeah. That one's a tough one because I don't know if they well, in Jaguar in generally is in general, it's, like, an expensive car. Like, I don't think it's accessible to everyone. So I don't know who they were targeting, but, like, I think they were targeting the younger generation. But I don't know if they can afford their car, so that was a mismatch there, I think, from my perspective.
Tyler:But I think it could have gone well if they executed the product better regardless of what side you are in, like, their campaign, whether it's done well or not. If you don't have a great product, I don't think I don't think it's gonna land. That's like table stakes. I think you should like, we're in a space where products have a have a, like, a a a barrier to entry when it comes to, like, quality. So if you're not so the product isn't solid.
Tyler:Doesn't matter what your Mhmm. Your your brand name has to match, has to push you above and beyond. So I don't I think, yes, the logo had these weird characters that that were uneven. It got everyone excited. So, like, the purpose of that marketing push was to get everyone to have looked towards when the new release of that electric car was coming.
Tyler:But Mhmm. When they saw it, I don't know about you, but I wasn't too impressed. No. Me neither.
Nick:Yeah. Well well, that's that's taste, I guess, and that's that's fine. There's no good or bad there, I guess. But I you know, what you're saying, I think, if I if I can say, you know, my version of what you're saying is is that it doesn't really matter for something as expensive as a luxury car and that it's a little bit overestimated. Like, people think too much of a redesign of branding redesign.
Tyler:Yeah. I think I forgot. I've heard this like, I think we've all heard this. Like, things that are expensive, they don't promote. Like, do they do we promote in magazines anymore?
Tyler:There's no commercials for, like, Ferraris. Like Mhmm. If you want a Ferrari, you'll buy a Ferrari. And I think Jaguar is in that same bucket. Yeah.
Tyler:But if you wanna buy like, there's some nostalgia in in Ferrari because we used to, like when we were kids, we used to have, like, the the Jaguar cars, and they're, like, very nice looking cars. So, like, this you don't really have to sell a Jaguar. It's just like, if you
Nick:want one, you'll get one. Though, I mean, it's a bit of a sidetrack here. Do you think participation of these brands in, like, motorsports is their, you know, their way of being in a commercial, quote, unquote, you know, with them winning races and trophies and championships, and then that's like, wow. That's a Ferrari.
Tyler:Yeah. That's true. That's true. They probably I probably don't have as much visibility on Jaguar and what they do in terms of racing. So they put the the brand probably extends beyond what I see.
Tyler:I just see, like, a couple vehicles, like, around the city. But that's true. That's true.
Nick:Yeah. Well, for Jaguar, all I I know about Jaguar is, you know, Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear slash Grand Tour being a huge fan of of it, which is also branding, I guess. Like, if your your brand is associated with a certain person or a type of person that can make people go like, oh, I want I want to be a car like that as well. You know? And and that's something you've seen with the Jaguar.
Nick:They they were really aiming for young people. I think the the currently, think like Jaguar, that that's that's from a a rich, older person, and they wanted to perhaps go away from it. One thing I also found interesting was, like, when there's let let's say a scandal happens. You know, I don't want to say the branding rebranding of Jaguar was a scandal per se, but there was discussion and the negative response in addition to a positive response. The negative response, people thought that was like a stroke of brilliance from the branding agency because, like, negative attention is also attention.
Nick:Like, that also gives you eyeballs on your brand. But I really think that's an overestimation again of what branding can do because it will not for a brand as well known as Jaguar, like, having more people see it will not necessarily mean that more people will buy a car, that car in particular.
Tyler:Yeah. And I think, like I mean, the definition of branding. Right? It's like it's not like, there's vehicles to, like, communicate, but also, like, branding is what people think about your company, not the reverse, not what you put out there. So it's like when you think when you say Jaguar, what do you what do you imagine?
Tyler:And I guess what they were trying to do was change what this Yeah. Like, the history of the company, which is the tough thing that's a tough thing to do. So I guess that's why they go so bold, for that separation. But, like, to your point, like, they they they went back, and they washed that one out.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. True. True. I mean, that's interesting.
Nick:Maybe something for us to to talk about now. Like, you mentioned the, like, the definition of branding. It's how people see you, what people think of you. It's it's it's also association. Do you work with certain people or other brands?
Nick:I've seen podcasts getting a sponsorship where I feel like, hey. They're sponsoring, but it's not meant to sell something. Like, there's no affiliate link in the episode description. And then I asked the podcast owner, like, hey. Why why are they sponsoring you?
Nick:Like, it doesn't make sense for them to sponsor you, you know, in a very friendly way, of course, because I imagine this could be misunderstood, like a question like that. But they said, like, well, they are sponsoring me for association. They want just want to see that that person want quite a big show, well known, well respected within its its field. And for the brand to be associated and mentioned by that person was just a massive increase in their trustworthiness and their perceived value and quality, you know, because that one person talks about it. I think that's a very powerful thing for for branding, and that's something I've seen in my my personal branding as well.
Nick:Like, oh, you've worked with that person. Well, that person is very strict and he has high quality work because of it. I I'm more likely to hire you as well just because you've worked with that other person before. Yeah. So I think branding or personal branding, again, I'm mostly talking about overestimation now, like, underestimated how powerful it can be for your career as a designer.
Tyler:Yeah. I was gonna challenge you there for a second because I but that totally makes sense. Yeah. Especially if you're if you're a freelancer and you use you've worked at your your case site or here here are your case studies. I've worked with this person and kinda led us to, like, your credibility.
Tyler:Mhmm. But I always found it hard like, without attribution, I find it hard to put a dollar value on that type of marketing. So, like, in your first example, sponsoring the podcast with no affiliate link. Like, how do you how do you measure the success or failure of of that of that partnership that based on, like, the person's follower count, how many views a a video gets. So it was hard for me to kind of mix make that tangible.
Tyler:It's almost very similar to at least in Montreal, if you go to downtown in any city, it is expensive. Mhmm. So you see, like, bunch of clothing or expensive jewelry kind of companies, like, on the main street. But if you actually dig into the numbers and look at the rent, they probably lose money. They probably lose money having their establishment there, but the play's visibility.
Tyler:Regardless of the if the the brand like Gucci or whatever the brand is that has their store downtown on, like, the main street, they're losing money, but at least they're you can see them.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's the main goal of that that that podcast example I gave. And maybe they should add add an affiliate link, you know, just to track more clicks and that kind of stuff. I think the the deal mostly was based on the average number of views a video gets.
Nick:If that's x amount of thousands of views each time, two or three times a week for whatever number of episodes the deal runs, like, that's more people getting to know you, that you exist. Maybe that's very, like, early on in the customer journey of perhaps using that product at some time. Yeah. But I agree with the the the main street thing you're saying. I'm personally, I'm always a bit hesitant to do something similar for for my career, but more in a digital way.
Nick:I'm not sure how what the ROI is.
Tyler:Like, you know,
Nick:you're the ROI designer. You know? So maybe you have a good insight there. Like, having a let's say you're a freelancer and you want a you want more more leads, like, would you get a salesperson to, like Mhmm. Equivalent of the the being in Main Street?
Nick:Like, do do you want to have someone with lots of connections that, you have to pay money for leads? Like, is that worth it? Yes or no? Like, what do you think?
Tyler:That's a tough one. Maybe when you're start maybe that makes sense when you're starting. Right? So you don't have any generally, if you're doing your work, working with clients, the strength of word-of-mouth is very powerful. So, at the end of, like, a contract, you should follow-up with, hey.
Tyler:If anyone else in your network needs my services, please send them my way, and that usually works pretty well. But I guess at least when you're starting or you don't have that many contacts, a salesperson might make sense. I'm not sure how much they would charge. Like, that that would probably eat into your to your like, I don't know what the margin on that is.
Nick:Perhaps it's commission based or it's a percentage on top of your hourly rate. In that case, it wouldn't cost you any money if it's on top of your your payout instead of them needing a, like, fixed price. But I'm not familiar enough with it, but I don't know I don't know why, But your example of being on Main Street made me think of, you know, sales and that kind of stuff for a individual career. How about liquid glass? You know, we we talked about it last time, and you mentioned that you wouldn't have mentioned it at all during your keynote.
Nick:Like, if you were Apple, if you were in charge of the keynote, you would not mention it at all. Like Yeah. Exactly. I feel like there's a bit of branding choice there as well, you know, that that I think not or or to show it.
Tyler:There yeah. It's almost similar to I think I saw this clip. It came up recently, and it it made me think about our our session about the liquid glass episode. But, essentially, there's a marketing agency that was working with Heinz Ketchup. Mhmm.
Tyler:And then they're working on their promotional ad campaigns, like old school billboards. And what they pitched was, like, three photos, basically, a photo of fries
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Photo of, like, a hamburger, and then another piece of food that needs ketchup. And then they overlaid on top of it, passed me the Heinz. And then the owners of the company is like, Heinz ketchup. Right? It's like, no.
Tyler:You don't need to mention ketchup. It's some third what else would it be? It's Heinz. It's ketchup.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Not featured in the ad itself was the actual product. It was just the word Heinz, which was an interesting play because it's banking on the credibility of the brand that Yeah. They're not you're not associated with the product. You you are the you are the product. It's like all the other products that are not the main it's not they're it's the brand name, not the actual product itself.
Tyler:So Heinz is ketchup. You think of that immediately. There's some Yeah. Other ones out there too where where you think of where you it's not the actual product name itself. It's just like the brand name has, like the branding so well that it's overtaking the actual name.
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. I wasn't aware of this, but now that you mentioned Heinz, I think it's true. Like, for me, it's the default to go to that bottle, like, the red bottle upside down with the white label on it. Like, I I don't even know if there's another brand. Like, I would always go for for Heinz even though I've never been on their website.
Nick:I've never seen a commercial. It's just they are catch up, which is, I think, a wonderful example of, like, really top 0.1% of the pyramid in terms of branding power. Like, if you are the the number one or the only one, I think you're
Tyler:in a very strong and maybe even unique position. Exactly. So if you're like Swiffer, for example, like Yeah. You when we went from mop to this thing that's not a mop, but, like, that that cleans that cleans the floor with the bristles, like, you think of Swiffer. It's it's the default, which is so strong.
Nick:Isn't that the same with with a Jacuzzi? Like
Tyler:Yep. Yes. That's the brand name.
Nick:Yeah. It's a brand name, but every bath you bubble bath you have on the on the porch somewhere, people are like, hey. That's a Jacuzzi. Well, even though it might be a Whirlpool or some other brand.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. And, like, to your ketchup example, there's an emotional feeling. Like, the other ketchups are probably still as good, but, like, whenever I Yeah. Whenever, like, I look at it, like, oh, I don't know.
Tyler:There's, an emotional, like, disgust feeling even though it's Yeah. The end of day, it's the same recipe, probably.
Nick:Yeah. Well, yeah, perhaps. Well, that's that's the power of branding for sure. Just like a label can do something. And also the if you you look at it from a design perspective, like, if you for example, Coca Cola, if you remove everything, but you only have the fonts, like, really like, the the looping fonts, people still order m from McDonald's.
Nick:Like, people still know what it is just because they've been exposed to it for so long.
Tyler:Exactly. Like, when you think of McDonald's, do you think the best burger when you think of, like, all the burgers you've had in the world, you think McDonald's
Nick:is good. The best burger. I think of the Happy Meal as a child. And Oh, interesting. You know?
Nick:It's more memories and family time because I enjoy McDonald's, but they're they're not like, if you would do a blind test, like, they they will not come out on top, but they do have the emotional part. Like, I don't feel like, if you if you have, like, a commercial for one of these brands, they're they're not likely to have a commercial where the the big payoff is, like, we now have a smaller bottle that's, like, 20% more efficient, and it saves a bit of money, and it's good for the environment. It's always a close-up of the burger or, like, the the can that opens, like, with the with the sound. You know? It's always the emotion.
Nick:Mhmm. While a supermarket is about their, discounts, like next week, soda cans, two for the price of one. You know? It's a different type of commercial, different type of branding. Exactly.
Nick:You could get
Tyler:the coupon discount. Like, oh Yeah. Yeah. Why not?
Nick:Yeah. And not nothing wrong with either one of those, but it's it's interesting to see that there are different types of like, you can feel emotionally connected to a brand, but it can also be, you know, very I'm I'm not sure what the right word is, but let's say, like, logistically attached to a brand. Like, I go there for all my sales shopping. Like, for all the discounts, I always go to that shop. But if I want to have a family moment, I go to to the other shop, and you have to really lean into that.
Nick:Like, I think it would be very strange if Coca Cola would make a or let's say, go back to Jaguar if they select, we dropped our prices by 2%. Now it's only $158,000
Tyler:for a
Nick:car. You know, that that's not the type of commercial they will they will make. It's it will have probably have a like, an actual Jaguar in you know, walking across the street or whatever, like, you know, just to show speed and whatever.
Tyler:Yeah. Of course. It's like what's that lemon lemonade example? It's just two lemonade stands. One says cold water cold sugar water Yeah.
Tyler:Versus another one that has a board that says freshly squeezed lemons, which which one you which one you're gonna go to, not the cold sugar lemony water.
Nick:No. No. That's true. Refreshing on a warm summer day in Canada. Like, that's that's the thing you want.
Nick:Refreshing.
Tyler:Yes. Exactly.
Nick:Circling back to to Apple, I think Apple is the victim of their own branding with liquid glass because, you know and regardless of the whether or not this is true, you know, some people are, like, super fans of Apple. Some people are quite the opposite. But I think it's safe to say that Apple is known, at least in their image and in their branding, as a company that innovates and comes with, like, high quality products, and they do things differently and blah blah blah. And that's not always true, and they they've had their their product failures. But I think because of the brand that type of branding that sticks to Apple, people expect it, you know, maybe too much from from liquid glass.
Nick:And, you know, every September when they announce new iPhones and and new new watches and all these things, people are always like, well, it's just a refresh. When are they going to innovate again? But then at the same time, like, you know, we we know what the mobile phone is. Like, you know, it's slightly quicker. Battery is slightly better.
Nick:MRI is a bit better. You know, we're not making big leaps anymore with phones, but still people are disappointed, and then they will still buy it. You know? So then That's a good point. That's the, you know, that's the double edged sword of branding for Apple, I think.
Nick:The the the innovation, like, champion they they are or they were perhaps in in the nineties or early two thousands. Like, that's that's following them around, and I'm not sure people really get that. So I I think that's on the emotional level also. They they expect Apple to do something more than just show the beta like they did earlier in in June.
Tyler:That's fair. I but I also think they've they've built up enough brand equity to fail. Like like Mhmm. Let's be realistic. If they do another failed launch phase, anyone are gonna switch to Android?
Tyler:Let's let's be real. I don't think so. Like, they've done a really good job of their of creating their ecosystem where everything kind of connects to each other. Like, we have the the the computer connects to the phone. Yeah.
Tyler:I played with my mother's Android phone. I'd rather not. So I think I think they have, to your point, the opportunity to experiment and and fail a couple times. They have a pretty, like, loyal community that's obviously very vocal, which is like a like a product designer's dream. Right?
Tyler:Imagine having a million voices tell you what they didn't like and what you did wrong. What are the different edge cases that you've missed? Liquid glasses and work on this screen or that screen. Mhmm. It's a better.
Tyler:Right? So they're gonna I imagine they're gonna fix it by the time it launches. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Can I say something about that? Yeah.
Nick:It's a bit of a concern that I'm having. You know, we're we're recording this, you know, towards the June, and Apple has currently you know, they they are giving or launching, I think it's a better word. They're launching a public beta versions of, like, all the OSs they're working on for your phone and for for the Mac. And a new one came out recently, and it has a ton of improvements compared to the version that they've shown during WWDC. Now the, you know, the WWDC version is the one that got all the attention, all the hate.
Nick:You know, the screenshots of readability issues and all these these these things. It's much better based on, you know, feedback, because the public beta is there for you to try not only to be a smart kid on social media, but they do it to, you know, get a feedback. And Mhmm. You know, I I was like, well, just just wait. Just let them improve the beta.
Nick:It's a beta. It's not the final release. And I did a bit of research. They do about six to eight public betas before they launch in September, you know, usually. So I'm a bit concerned, like, is that something we as designers are not aware of?
Nick:Like because it feels to me fairly standard in software releases and and software developments that you have, like, an iterative approach. You have a a test version. You get a feedback. You improve, and that's the circle that keeps going for a while. If designers were more aware of the software development cycle, maybe they would have been less vocal or less angry on social media because they knew it would be okay in the end.
Nick:Or do you think I'm too harsh now towards our fellow designers?
Tyler:Yeah. I think we lose I think that's true. Like, if they're a software company or they're a product company, they're they're releasing iterations. It's gonna get better. And, like, we we all know.
Tyler:We've all been there for well, I've never been there at that scale where we're launching Mhmm. Where we're launching, the big reveals. Like, you can imagine that they had that date booked for when they were gonna do that conference, and they wanted to squeeze as many cool features on the deadline as as fast as possible. And there's probably things that were cut, like QA passes here. There's like, oh, there's this cool thing, and there's there's pushing from the executives.
Tyler:So we have to launch with with it has to look this so things get missed because it's a it's a release, and it's not gonna be perfect. The designers at Apple probably were under the under pressure. Just, they did a great job. Again, I think we just picture Apple as this, like, image of perfection when they go through the same process that we're all very familiar with. They launched their beta, and they called it that.
Tyler:And to your point, the newest releases are are much better. Yeah. I feel like
Nick:yeah. So it's it's I feel like it's going to be okay. You know? And and I I think branding wise, very interesting is there's a lot of cheer about the reversal of the finder icon changes that they were going to do. Like, you have that that blue and white face, like the Apple finder icon.
Nick:It has the blue face on the left and the white face on the right. And then in the first announcement, it was flipped. So white face on the left, blue on the right. Yeah. I I I can I can was that sarcasm?
Nick:Because it was only very obvious. But that's that's something people are associated with. They feel connected to, like, it's the Macintosh icon, the logo. It's the thing, and then they changed this. I don't know the reason why they changed it, but now they changed it back, and I feel like that's a small but important move.
Nick:And if I can please cue your oh no in in a sarcastic voice as you can, but they changed the Mickey Mouse finger icon. Like, when you hover something that's clickable, they changed it to a generic finger, and that's something I'm very annoyed by. I'm very attached to the Mickey Mouse finger. I can't help it. It feels it feels like it's, like, default apple.
Nick:It's when you when you hover something, you see, like, the little white glove with the the black lines on top of the hand? That's very apple. Like, it's that's just what they have, and they're removing it. I'm trying not to cry here.
Tyler:Say again. Oh, no. Oh, no.
Nick:Yeah. But that that, like, that's I think your reaction is very interesting. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, it's not like people will stop buying Apple products, but there's I'm not alone. There are quite a few people very disappointed by it, and it's, you know, those were little touches that make you stand out compared to whatever other operating system you you can use, you know, Windows and Linux and and Chrome and whatever.
Nick:I I think it's important for both of those to stay.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, it's fair. I mean, I had to look at my docs just now to realize that the white was on the right hand side, and the blue was on the left hand side. And mine but it I think it's all part of like, with branding, it's like the journey. Right?
Tyler:So it has to be consistency is, like, the name of the game. So Yeah. There's like, through every step, there's these, like, little magical moments. Mhmm. The glove being one of them.
Tyler:So it all kind of adds up to your experience with the with Apple as the brand.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's yeah. You know, what I think is very important also is it doesn't matter. That's my sad realistic approach that I think we also should highlight now is it's also outside of the design bubble.
Nick:Like, in in politics, in world news, something crazy happens. The whole world is like, oh, no. You know? Just like you were like, oh, no. And then next week, we forget and we continue with our lives.
Nick:We're noticing this with liquid glass already. I'm currently seeing more examples, more posts on social media of people creating a tutorial how to recreate liquid glass. Mhmm. Or here's my portfolio in liquid glass. You know?
Nick:So we're already moving away from it's bad to here's how I made it myself.
Tyler:Well, I mean, at the end of the day, it's it's cool. Yeah. Regardless of the accessibility, think it's a cool new effect. It's
Nick:very cool. Yeah. For sure. But but my point being is whenever something silly happens, people are angry for a few days, and then they accept and move on. Another example here is, like, the hamburger menu, like, three lines.
Nick:People are like, well, it's not good for accessibility, and it's a bad design pattern because you don't know the menu items hidden behind that icon. You should show them all the time just so people can scan it better. And the iPhone 10 came out, no home button, so you had to swipe from outside your screen up just to Okay. Open your phone, like, there's no indication of it except for that little bar. And now people are used to it to a level that it's second nature.
Nick:Nobody's complaining anymore about the hamburger menu and, you know, the the the swipe gesture. And the same will happen to a liquid glass. Like, we will accept it, and we will forget the accessibility issues because that's just how the news works. There will be a new, quote, unquote, scandal that people will bite themselves into, and they will forget it as well. So that's the the I also think the sad reality.
Nick:Like, if we were very strict and we kept pushing on being better, which is very exhausting, then we, as a design community, I think we would would, you know, increase a few levels, I guess.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. I think it's it it it mirrors the Jaguar. I think Jaguar is gonna be fine. I think Yeah.
Tyler:Apple's gonna be fine. Yeah. The other brands that try to bail, it's just, like, a a dip in their profit margin for a little bit, and then everything's back to normal.
Nick:Everything's back to normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed it in within myself.
Nick:I noticed it within myself as well. I at first, I was like, I'm not going to update. Now I'm like, I'm probably going to update.
Tyler:Yeah. Or or else, you're gonna be locked out of your favorite apps. So you and
Nick:you I just I just have to admit it. Like, this is a podcast with two authentic people, so I want to be honest.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm gonna be though, to be fair, I've been looking at that update on my phone, and I I've yet to hit update.
Nick:Well, it's a public beta. I wouldn't put a public beta on your main phone anyway.
Tyler:Yeah. Well, I have the the beta unlocked. So I have, like or the beta switch, so I get the beta updates instead of just, like, the official releases. So Alright. I just have issues with it does leak the updates at night.
Tyler:It often fails for some reason. Like like, you click auto update when I'm sleeping, but it just never does it.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:So which is an odd one for me, but I think Yeah. It's
Nick:Well, I have my old iPhone lying around. It has a special version of liquid glass on it called a broken glass, but it's still functioning, so I might Get it? So I might put the the the iOS 26 on that phone just to see how it works. But let's let's go back to the the main topic, branding. One thing I think important, like, for designers to also talk about is personal branding.
Nick:So far, we've been talking about a few examples and what is branding and, you know, big brands and what it all means. But for your career, I think personal branding is also super important. And I think it applies to people in your situation, you know, in house designers, as well as people in my situation, like freelancers, you know, in similar ways, I guess. Like, you are associated with something. Like, you might might have a specialty, but also how you speak online and how you present yourself all really tie into I'm not going to hire this person or I am going to hire this person.
Tyler:I think personal branding is super important. I think it's, like, the first thing that you should kinda define for yourself. I've been doing a lot of, like, mentorship rate lately, and branding is, like, the first exercise we do. It's like Interesting. There's a there's a line that I have people kinda try to figure out.
Tyler:So, like, part of the process is kind of understanding who they are as as a person, as a designer, what types of companies that they wanna work for, and defining just defining that that like, who who you are and then how you show up. So it's Yeah. It's something like I help insert type of company, whether that's like a startup or a larger company. So then she's like, I help this type of company improve this business metric through my design differentiator. Mhmm.
Tyler:Putting people through that exercise, first of all, brings clarity, and, also, it's used everywhere. So it's used as, like, your hero statement in your portfolio. When when Yeah. You're you send your CV or your resume, they go to your website first as the first, like, line they see instead of See a lot of, like, students where they they put, hello. I'm Yeah.
Tyler:I'm Jimmy. I'm this. Like, I don't care. But what what do you what do you do? Like, what's your what's your what's your personal brand?
Tyler:And then that travels to your case studies. Does that line translate to the type of work you do? So, like, if your line is, for example, I help early stage startups find product market fit through my through my exploratory analysis, which is my differentiator, I wanna see that in your case studies. I also want you to speak about it during your entry during the interview process, whether that's, like, regardless who that is, like, hiring manager, HR, and then also how you show up on that first day. Like, this is who I am.
Tyler:When this type of work comes down the lane, I'm the best to tackle it so that when future work comes out and I go, hey. Nick's really good at that. I've branded myself as this type of designer that tackles this type of work through my special set of skills.
Nick:Right. Right. Maybe it's interesting to make this more tangible for people. Like, what's your your your main line? Like, if you if you would apply what you just said to yourself, like, what's your what's your deal?
Tyler:It's probably something along the lines of I help early stage startups. I I probably say, I help early stage startups increase their increase retention and grow revenue through my analytical and data driven design approach or some better version of that. But Mhmm. It's essentially,
Nick:like, why Of course. You know, I I I kinda put you on the spot there, so I don't expect you to have the the perfect line there. But it's good because, you know, lots of advice is very generic. Like, find your specialty. Yeah.
Nick:Okay. But people don't really know what it is yet, and a few examples would help. So that's why I asked. But you also mentioned the ROI of design, like ROI designer. Like, that's also something you talk about quite often.
Nick:So Yeah. Shouldn't that be part of your your main headline?
Tyler:Yeah. I think it it probably should. It's just yeah. Because I've been doing design for a while, and I've noticed that and we've just been focusing on, like, how pixels look, but not necessarily, like, the impact that you have. I think it's just important to have be aware of that when you're working at a company, like, especially in house when you're, like, you you're kind of disconnected sometimes.
Tyler:So it's like, I do this work, and it goes out the door, but what impact have I had? But I think measuring maybe just the individual yourself as a designer and also the design team, what your impact is, which brings us back to that that seat at the table conversation.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. You know, what I would say for myself is that I'm also focused on the on startups, SaaS. I would say that I help nondesigners go from a to z on the full projects.
Nick:So it's everything from that first idea to branding and designing and developing. Like, my my my favorite type of project is just someone who comes to me like, hey. I need a website. I don't have anything except for a few thoughts in my head, and this is my problem. Then I I do everything for for them, You know, the logos, branding, colors, text, designing the actual website, and then building it in in Webflow or WordPress or whatever.
Nick:And to make it even more a to z, it also includes, like, SEO, you know, thinking. Like, it's the technical SEO is also on point. Like, it's not just a random, cloggy website. You know, the performance is there too. Yeah.
Nick:So then we have, you know, you have your version, you have my version. I think a few more examples would help too for our listeners. One I've seen there are two which I think are valid, but probably a bit overused currently. But if it if it's if one of those two is who you are and all that, then that's fine. Like, not a problem.
Nick:But just to point out, I think I'm seeing them quite a bit. They are a designer with a focus on accessibility. It's mostly something I see in the EU because of of new legislation. Like, there are four government agencies and government websites. It's somewhere this year, I guess, or early last year.
Nick:It's it's now mandatory to follow a certain level of accessibility of the guy of the main guidelines. Like, you're required to follow it. Otherwise, you can get fines. So it's a bit business driven as well. Like, people want to be seen as accessibility experts for so they can get hired to fix websites before the deadline, or it's from a more a a principle standpoint.
Nick:Like, accessibility is good because you're open to more people, more people can make use of your services. So one of those two reasons for accessibility. And then the second one is being a design partner. That's something I see lots of agencies talk about. Like, we're more than just making it pretty.
Nick:We're also your design partner. We think along. We do more than just what you say. We want you to go further and blah blah blah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Nick:So accessibility and design partner. Those two, I think, are also examples of how you can brand yourself as a designer.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the accessibility one is super powerful just because well, it's it's a specific niche, but it's a niche that's in high demand. Like, to your point, all the legislation and law updates in EU, they're looking for by law, you have to do a certain thing. So if you're at next rate in that field, then you're you're gonna be in high demand.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I did a I did a few projects for government agencies, like, you know, Dutch ministries, and it it's very interesting. They are very you know, the the the range in website quality, like, it's very broad.
Nick:Like, some websites are really top notch and really accessible, and some websites are quite outdated, but they're working very hard on making it better. So that's that's a good thing. Like you should, I think, as a government, you should be accessible for all people within your country. Like, everyone should be able to read about laws and how you can get some help if you need it. You know?
Nick:Well, let's not make it too politic heavy this episode, but do do you do you have any other examples of how to position yourself branding wise as a designer on top of the four that we have now?
Tyler:Yeah. I think I think at the end of the day, it's like, back to the point about, like, what branding is, what your customers think about you when, like, you pop up to your mind. I think if you execute your work solidly, it's about how like, if you were to ask any of your your your past clients when they think, Nick, what do they think of? I imagine it'd be, like, high quality of execution of work. I think that's the more most important part of branding, like, doing excellent work.
Tyler:Yeah. Showing up on time, being consistent. Yep. Communication. Communication.
Tyler:Exactly. You I think consistency is underrated. Mhmm. So, like, showing up for meetings, replying to emails quickly Yeah. Those small little things are, like, big differentiator between you and, like, the back.
Nick:Yeah. I agree. I agree. It's hard to show that in a portfolio, by the way. Don't you think if it's most of what you're saying is soft skills, you know, being a kind communicator, replying to emails, being on time.
Nick:Like, I've never seen a portfolio where someone said, like, hey. I finished this project. Conversion rate is up by 2%, and I've been on time 99% of my meetings.
Tyler:That's a weird one. It's a weird question to push.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. But but well, that's what I mean. I, like, I I joke a little bit, but I'm I've been thinking about this recently. Like, let's say your main skill is, you know, you can take a nondesigner, nontechnical person, and you can help them understand websites and the design process.
Nick:You really guide them to the finish line of a project, and they feel at ease and not confused like they were before the projects. Like, it's that's very tough to show in a portfolio except, guess, like, my answer to my own question would be, you need a testimonial from that person. Yeah. But there must be a bigger way unless you think, like, the testimonial is enough because then I then I can let go of my question.
Tyler:I I was gonna say, because I was gonna bring up testimonials. I think testimonials is enough because it speaks well, number one, I think testimonials are are underutilized in people's portfolios. Just it's another layer of social proof that Yeah. Yes. I did this case study, but here is what the stakeholders or the clients thought of the final delivery.
Tyler:Yeah. So it just it adds to that credibility. So Mhmm. We executed on these KPIs, and the customer was super, super happy with with the result, which is probably the most important.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And then enter a testimonial. And then, you know, as a little bit of a side note again, but then for a testimonial, I would always link to the person's website or LinkedIn profile just to make it even more real. Sometimes people want to check, like, if their testimonial is real, maybe ask a person like, hey.
Nick:Did you work with Tyler? Like, is this what you said about him? And they can say yes. Or even, like, one of my testimonials is a tweet by someone. So I'm linking to the actual tweet Ah.
Nick:So people can actually see it in in context.
Tyler:Exactly. And also, like, on a micro level, like, if you did a website project linked to the actual website.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. Well, you've you've been posting on on LinkedIn for a while every day. I imagine there's some branding involved there as well.
Nick:Like, you have the same payoff every time, or you talk about similar topics, I I guess, within design. Is there any branding thinking going on or any advice you would have for people wanting to build a personal brand on social media?
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's just about picking your your lane or your niche that's different. Like, there's, I was asked this question recently. It's like, how do I how do I set up my what I wanna post about? It's like, well, there's I think there's an abundant amount of, like, Figma tutorials.
Tyler:This is how you do this drop shadow, this and that. But there's there's a gap. There's, like, other opportunities to speak about things that are not oversaturated. Accessibility could be what. Mine just happens to be the ROI of design.
Tyler:So I I generally post about, like, problems or features that you wanna kind of tackle and then the the cost of not fixing it or the the revenue generated by fixing a a specific thing or launching a specific feature. Nice. Which which is, like, under, I think, undervalued or under talked about. So it's just about picking, what's the term, two levels of two layers of niche. So you have, like, design, and then we have product design, and then we have accessibility.
Tyler:So, like I see. You're you're niching down to a specific level that's just like, you're talking about something unique that not a lot of people talk about, which Mhmm. Differentiate you differentiates you in the market.
Nick:Yeah. Well, maybe one one thing that came up based on what you just said is you're I mean, you're posting every day. Right? Like, a day, seven days a week. And if you're very niched down, like ROI of design and you do this for three months, Like, can you think of nine topics to write about when you're really niched down, or are you doing some sort of recycling?
Nick:And how do you come up with your ideas?
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's it's at the beginning, it's very easy because you have you just look back at your experience. And, basically, you're essentially just teaching what I usually do is kind of I'm speaking to the the Tyler of ten years ago and and things that I wish I knew. Right. Which which there's a lot of things that I wish I knew.
Tyler:So I just said there's a there. But, also, people comment on your posts. So they have questions. They have comments. Mhmm.
Tyler:And that's an opportunity to look out for idea generation. It's just like people are have questions. People are leaving comments. There's your new post. Yeah.
Tyler:Just answering their questions. True.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to have two weeks of content ready in advance. You just have to be in the comment section.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. So Yeah. Like, you have your mini audience, and they're hungry. If you're doing a decent job, they're hungry to learn more, so answer their questions.
Nick:Yeah. Alright. So for personal branding, just to summarize, you know, you have to present yourself in a certain direction and then, you know, a niche design niche in particular and write about it and basically become it, that type of designer. Everywhere you go, be consistent about it, your case studies, in your posts everywhere. Then before you know it, you will be known as, you know, that type of designer.
Nick:If I need ROI, if I need accessibility, if I need a to z, like, design development projects, I need to go to, you know, fill in the name. Right? So I think that's probably the very simple summary of a more complex process.
Tyler:And, also, to your to answer your own question, is frightening overrated or underrated?
Nick:I think I think in general, it's underrated. It's more often underrated than it is overrated. Well, that's nice that we agree. Perhaps a bit boring for our listeners. Like, oh, they agree again, but, that's fine.
Nick:But that's everything on my list in regards to to branding. I think we we had a good talk. Do you have any any closing remarks on branding?
Tyler:I think I think just, like, just to double down on personal branding. I think that's gonna be very that's gonna be as to not to harp on the AI thing. As tools get better at automation and things, what becomes what's becoming more and more important is the designer's mind. So I think it's important to flex your intellectual skills and then also Yeah. Brand yourself accordingly
Nick:Right.
Tyler:Which is gonna be your main differentiator.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. Do not be the obvious AI slop poster on social media. We can tell.
Nick:Take it very seriously. Branding is super important. Alright? Well, that's it, I guess. What's what's the topic of next time?
Nick:What is the topic of next time? I I think we're going to talk about how is it smart to, or is it worth it, I think is a better word, to study and get into UX and product design today, you know, with all the AI developments coming up? Like, should you? Is it worth it? Will you even be able to get a job when you graduate in three or four years or in six months when you do a shorter program.
Nick:I know you have some thoughts there. I think that's why. Being a very pro AI and a user of AI prototyping tools. So I know you have something to say there.
Tyler:I think the main question is, it depends on what UX design looks like during that time period. I think it's evolving fast, so tease that for the next episode. I think it Like, it depends on what UX kind of evolves into Mhmm. As it's evolved in the past.
Nick:I wanted to interrupt you. Like, don't don't answer it yet. Don't answer it yet, but you you stopped that teaser and cliffhanger, so that's nice. Alright. Well, I think that's a that's a very important question to have an answer for.
Nick:So I will see you all next time.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.