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Slip into something more comfortable and delve into personal finance with Josh Sheluk and Colin White, experienced portfolio managers at Verecan Capital Management. Each episode demystifies complex financial topics, stripping them to their bare essentials. From investment strategies and financial planning to economic headlines and philanthropic giving, delivered with a blend of insight, transparency, and a touch of humour. Perfect for anyone looking to understand and navigate their financial future with confidence. Subscribe now to stay informed, empowered, and entertained.
Verecan Capital Management Inc. is registered as a Portfolio Manager in all provinces in Canada except Manitoba.
Welcome to Barenaked Money, the podcast where we strip down the complex world of finance to its bare essentials with your host, Josh Sheluk, portfolio manager with Verecan Capital Management Inc, and this week's guest host, Amanda McKenna, associate portfolio manager with Verecan Capital Management Inc.
Josh Sheluk:Welcome to the next episode of Bare Naked Money. We have a very special guest host here today, Amanda McKenna from our Halifax Dartmouth offices. Amanda is a portfolio manager with the team. And, Amanda, you recently did an interview with the Financial Post on intergenerational wealth transfer and more specifically gifting money to adult children. So that's what we're talking about here today.
Amanda McKenna:Hi, Josh. Yeah. I did talk, about this recently. It's been called the great the great wealth transfer, the greatest wealth transfer of all time in Canadian history. So, a lot of people are talking about it, and, I think it's a good conversation to have.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. It's funny. We call this the great wealth transfer or the greatest wealth transfer. But, basically, ever since I've been in this business, I've been hearing about the greatest wealth transfer of all time. So I think, naturally, as societies, as countries, as people get more wealthy, there's going to be a greater wealth transfer.
Josh Sheluk:Now it might be particularly acute over the next 10 or 20 years because we have, a big sort of surplus of the population, the baby boomers kinda entering that that stage of their lives. But, I think there's always gonna be a significant amount of wealth to transfer, quite frankly. So, I just wanna start with one question for you right off the
Amanda McKenna:bat. Sure.
Josh Sheluk:What is the number one thing to think about when gifting money to adult children?
Amanda McKenna:I think the number one thing before you decide to even go ahead with this is just to make sure that if you're doing this, that it doesn't derail your own, financial plan. So I've seen with clients where they they wanna help their kids out, especially while they're still alive to see the impact, and, it's put them in a worse, case than they had hoped for. So I think making sure that's already in place before you decide to do it is the key factor before going ahead with it.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. So it's I think it's probably fair to say that there's no possible way you can be in a better spot yourself by gifting money financially. Yeah. Right? So Absolutely.
Josh Sheluk:But but that doesn't mean you're compromising any of your your goals or objectives Exactly. By giving money. So there's a bit of a balancing act, and there might be opportunity to give away tons of money without compromising your goals whatsoever. Or there might be some considerations, and this is where a financial adviser could help often is, okay. You can gift this amount if you want to, but you also it's gonna impact you in this way.
Amanda McKenna:Keeping in mind too that, people are living a lot longer. And so maybe in your head, you had, you know, expected that you'd have this money for this period of time, but, you know, maybe you live ten extra years. And what are you gonna do in that case if you run out of money? You're gonna have to go back to your kids and say, hey. Remember that gift I gave you?
Josh Sheluk:Thank you. Can I
Amanda McKenna:have it back now?
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Yeah. You're in the situation where you supported your kids all those years, and now all of a sudden they're supporting you right back. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh Sheluk:And and this is one thing from a financial planning perspective. I often will struggle with it, and that based on somebody's life expectancy or even, a higher than average life expectancy and based on their current spending, everything could look just fine for them to gift a significant amount of money. But the variable is, k, now you're 90, you're still healthy, but you have dementia, and you're gonna be in a long term care facility with round the clock care, and it's gonna be 5 to $10,000 a month. And all of a sudden, what looked like a very rosy financial situation, maybe not so much. So, again, it's a hard balancing act to try to find what the right amount is that you can comfortably give because situations can change pretty fast, especially later in life.
Amanda McKenna:Absolutely. Yeah. My question for you is, are you seeing this conversation with your clients and and having conversations about wanting to gift to them earlier, rather than waiting till they pass away? Is that something that you're kind of seeing a trend in?
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. I I think so. And, honestly, I think a lot of this comes from the point of view of it's so hard for younger people to get into the housing market. Yep. And rightly or wrongly, I think that's a big focus of a lot of parents and especially, parents that are in their sixties or seventies or eighties, maybe that have generated a lot of wealth throughout their lifetime by owning real estate.
Josh Sheluk:They really want their children to have that same opportunity to build wealth through real estate. So I think that is that's a a bit of a kick in the pants, if you wanna call it that, for people with wealth to transfer it to their kids is their kids are now in that age where they're trying to get into the real estate market, but it's very, very difficult without a significant down payment or some some type of support from their parents, depending on the market that you are in Canada. Now I I come from the sort of, GTA Centric and Ontario Centric real estate market. Your real estate market there is a little bit different, but are you finding the similar trend?
Amanda McKenna:I think we're definitely seeing a similar trend, but, I agree. It's definitely harder for millennials living in Toronto. I've got family that live in Toronto, and we have talked about, you know, them wanting to build buy a home and just how expensive it is for a down payment. And it's it's significantly less on on the East Coast, but, you know, income levels are are less here as well. So it's all kind of proportional as well.
Amanda McKenna:So it's definitely something that we're I'm seeing with, with clients wanting to help them out get get started. And, yeah, I agree with you. The boomer generation kind of sees a lot of value in buying the house and building that equity in your house, is something that, you know, they want to see for their kids. So that's how they're they're helping. I also read an article, which was kind of interesting about, the difference between the relationship between the baby boomers and the millennial kids, and that they kinda have, like, a closer bond.
Amanda McKenna:They're more in emotional or impacted by wanting to help their kids rather than maybe, like, the next Gen Xers where their relationship with their parents was a little bit more independent, and they graduated high school, graduated university, and then they were set free, and they were on their own to to buy their house. Whereas now it's like yeah. The the relationship, I think, is a little different. So I don't know if that's just one person's point of view or or, it it's more common, but I can see I can see the different points for that as well.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. It does seem to speak to there there may be some type of generational attitude Mhmm. Broadly speaking. Obviously, this is a very individual sitch situation and and, decision at the end of the day, but there there could be generational type attitudes. And and this kind of speaks to maybe the parents want one thing for their kids, but the kids don't want that thing for themselves.
Amanda McKenna:Absolutely.
Josh Sheluk:So there's a bit of a risk here of the parents imprinting their values on their children or or or as to what what their children should value. I know, again, thematically, generally speaking, the millennials or younger generations seem to be more focused on experiences and things like that than the material things and, maybe being more mobile, not being tied down by Yeah. House or real estate or something like that. So if the gift is specific to I want you to buy a house, maybe that that child, maybe they're not at a point where they wanna buy a house or that's something that they wanna spend that money on. So I guess the the broader thing is, and this is a point that you brought up when we were talking about this couple days ago, is parents sometimes or the gifters sometimes think that the kids should spend the money one way and the kids maybe have a different point of view.
Josh Sheluk:So so so how do you how do parents ensure that the kids are spending the money that they gift to them in the the quote, unquote right way?
Amanda McKenna:I don't know if there's any way you can actually ensure that they do it. Because for the parents' perspective, you kinda have to be from the mindset that once you gift this money to their kids, it's out of your hands. It's out of your control. You can have conversations with them, kind of set them up with introducing them to your financial adviser, to kinda help transfer, the wealth to them in the way you want. But, ultimately, it's it's gonna be, what they decide to do.
Amanda McKenna:So that's kind of one of the cons of gifting while still alive is it may cause some family drama, maybe a little awkward around, the the table at Christmas time if they spend the money on, you know, a trip rather than, you know, a down payment on a home. So I think the key though is communication, with the parents and the children to say, you know, this is what we wanna do. This is the reason why we wanna do it. And, but you have to be okay with knowing that it might not turn out the way you want.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Open and honest two way communication is never, I don't think, a bad thing when it comes to to money and these types of decisions. It's gonna maybe not solve every problem, but help things along the way and at least, hopefully, avoid any surprises, which is kinda what we're trying to avoid here. So Yeah. But, yeah, it's it's important for the parents to understand, like, your values.
Josh Sheluk:So just like we as financial advisers, we try not to impose our values on our clients. Right? Yeah. We try to be open to what their values are. And as a parent gifting money to a family member, you should try your best to do the same thing.
Josh Sheluk:Don't impose your values on that person who's receiving the money. If you wanna support them financially, support them financially, in a way that hopefully makes sense for them.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. Absolutely.
Josh Sheluk:So just coming back to your question about or or your comment about family drama. Yes. It it it might not only be a situation where the money is being spent in a different way than is expected. There could be also family drama if there's some point of view or perspective of inequality or unfairness. Yes.
Josh Sheluk:Have you seen that play out in family dynamics as well?
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it could be one child is in a better spot financially. They'd make good financial decisions. They don't need the help from the the parents, but then another child, they're seeing them suffer.
Amanda McKenna:They wanna help out. So it it is a tough balancing act just to figure out how to make it all equal. And, again, that's something, you know, us as advisors, we can talk about and provide the the numbers, the math on it, but it's really it's gonna come down to them and how they decide to do it. It's their life, and they get to choose what they wanna do with their money.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. So what I've I see people kind of approaching this from 2 different directions. There's one of fairness and one of equality. Mhmm. And they sound similar, but they're slightly different.
Josh Sheluk:So the the the fairness approach is sort of along the lines of what you're talking about there. One child might need money more than another, in which case maybe you give them a little bit of extra support. The other perspective is equality. Like, I'm just gonna give you exactly the same amount. No matter what your financial circumstances are, we're gonna treat you both exactly equally or all 3 of you or all 4 of you or whatever it is exactly equally.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. And I think there's there's potentially, people could be slighted in either situation. Right? If you're the less well off sibling and you see the same amount being gifted to you and your other sibling, then you potentially have some gripes. If you're the better off sibling and you see more money going to the one that's less privileged than you are, then there could be gripes as well.
Josh Sheluk:So, it's another one of those things where communication, I think, is hugely important. Yeah. And it's maybe not gonna solve all the problems, maybe not gonna avoid all of the, feelings of of being slighted, but at least if if you as a parent can articulate what you're doing and why, then there's, I'd say, a greatly reduced likelihood of there being the the quote, unquote family drama as you call it.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. And I think too whether you you decide to gift early before you pass away or if you're you're leaving it to the estate to deal with. Communication and letting you know, that's something that I think a lot of people, don't wanna talk about. It's not a fun conversation to have to talk about how your estate's gonna be divided up. But I think if you can have those open conversations with your children and and they know and everybody's on the same page for whoever's the, executor that has to manage all this, it's gonna make their lives a lot easier, and it's gonna make the family dynamic a lot easier because everybody's on the same page.
Amanda McKenna:Everybody knows. So it could help reduce some of those conflicts.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. I've had clients say to me, my my kids have a good relationship. They'll figure it out. And I'm just like, no. Just don't don't do that.
Josh Sheluk:Like, do you want them to have a bad relationship? They might figure it out, but Yeah. There also is people when somebody passes away, especially a a loved family member like a parent, emotions are running high because Yeah. For obvious reasons. But there's also all kinds of stresses that come along with that as well, especially for the executors and the people that are managing the financial affairs and the the final wishes of that person.
Josh Sheluk:So you don't need to layer on extra stress or potential for a conflict or if extra stress or potential for conflict or issues by not having this conversation ahead of time, no matter how good the relationship is between your kids or beneficiaries.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. Another thing too is, having this communication because your your children could be thinking that they're getting this certain amount. And then when their parents pass away, it is significantly less than what they thought. And so if the the millennial kid is kinda banking on a certain amount, building that into their financial plan that they have in their head of how they can afford to do whatever, that can be a bit of a shock for them as well. So knowing how much they potentially could get, obviously, that's gonna change, but having that conversation could be helpful as well.
Josh Sheluk:Right. Right. So okay. Kids are getting money, whether it's at death or sometimes during the parents' lives. Here's a question for you.
Josh Sheluk:How how do you know how do these people know when is the right time to make a gift?
Amanda McKenna:I don't know if there is a right time to to make the gift. I guess it depends on the scenario with their children. I mean, one could put a make a point of helping out with a gift, for their children if they're looking to buy a home, setting them up for success earlier on so that they can build up their equity in their home and and and that sort of thing rather than, waiting until they pass away and they're in their, you know, fifties or sixties, looking to retire where they could have used the money earlier on. What are your thoughts?
Josh Sheluk:Well, let let let me flip the question for you. Is there a wrong time to make a gift?
Amanda McKenna:I don't know. I don't know if there is.
Josh Sheluk:It's it's probably very it's probably very situational as well. I I would think, like, gifting your 18 year old a $1,000,000
Amanda McKenna:Okay.
Josh Sheluk:Maybe not a good time. Right? Yes. Yeah. I I think, probably, if you're gifting a substantial amount of money to your child, you wanna see some degree of financial maturity Mhmm.
Josh Sheluk:For them. And I would also say if gifting a substantial amount, you probably wanna see just some stability, in what their priorities are as well. That that will probably give you some peace of mind as the gifter and help ensure that the money is used in maybe a more effective way if there's some stability in their lives. And and that stability, I use that term broadly intentionally because it could mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. Stability doesn't have to mean that you have a family and you're settled down.
Josh Sheluk:It could just mean that you have a, you know, a pretty clear track as to to where you wanna go. Because, again, like, when you're younger, I think there's maybe more paths, and they're they're they're more divergent than they would be if you're a little bit older, and a little bit more settled or focused on the direction. So it's not like 25 is the right age, because it could be very different for a lot of different people. Yeah. And and, again, for some people, their kids may not ever reach that financial maturity level.
Josh Sheluk:So That's true. That's something to consider as as well, because I know there's Absolutely. People in that situation where their kids might be in their forties, and they still don't trust them to make smart decisions with money. So
Amanda McKenna:Absolutely. And then another thing is too that, you know, if you have, an amount that you want to give to them, And maybe it's a larger amount, but you there's no reason why you can't do it in stages and maybe test out how how well they do. So rather than gifting them a $1,000,000, you gift them, like, I don't know, $10,000, see what they do with it, and kind of test it out. That could be a more of a parenting technique and and see how how mature they are and what they decide to do with it. But there's no reason why you have to do it all at one point in one lump sum.
Amanda McKenna:You could sprinkle it throughout their lives as well.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Very good point. Very good point. I and I I think for me, that's what I would see most often from our clients is that they do things gradually over time. It helps from a couple different perspectives because it helps, again, as as you said, kind of judge and make sure that it's being used relatively intelligently, but also helps from the parents' perspective.
Josh Sheluk:Because if they're a bit more gradual, it it gives them more time to ensure that their financial circumstances aren't gonna change in a very detrimental way. Yeah. Whereas if you gave a lump sum of a $1,000,000 away and, you know, 5 years later, you're in dire straits, that's problematic. Whereas if you're sprinkling it, as you said, then there's less of a chance of that that happening. Yeah.
Josh Sheluk:Definitely. Let's assume that there's money to give away. The the parents have money. Their parents have wealth. What are some of the financial things to think through that that that they should be thinking of that are maybe pros and cons of gifting money while they're still alive versus versus gifting money through their estate?
Amanda McKenna:I think the biggest thing financially speaking is that the the parents, if they're gifting while they're still alive, if they're depending on where they're drawing the money from, it could, offset some of the tax bill that would be built up, for the estate to deal with. So, the parents would be taking on that tax burden, lessening it for their kids to deal with. And especially if you're doing it earlier, rather than letting that tax bill be deferred and build up and build up, and it's taking away more of the the whole estate value. That's probably one of the biggest financial pros in terms of, you know, the the parents helping out the kids. It's not gonna be anything that will help them per se, the parents financially, but it will be better off for their kids.
Josh Sheluk:Right. Yeah. So if if one of your priorities is maximizing your after tax state value, which is Yeah. Priority for a lot of people Yeah. Quite frankly.
Josh Sheluk:Then you're exactly right. Sort of, again, sprinkling the gift over the course of one's life can help mitigate the tax impact rather than shaking the can down the road and having a big, big tax burden there for the estate, when when they pass. Now just to be clear, the there is no in Canada, there's no gift tax, and there's no inheritance tax. So Yeah. For a parent gifting money, the actual act of the gift is not taxed nor is it taxed for the recipient.
Josh Sheluk:There's no as a as a child or as an adult, anybody who's over the 18 age of 18, let's put it that way, receiving money as a gift or inheritance is not taxed to you. Yeah. Where there could be tax implications, though, is how is the parent getting that cash to give to their their their child or the beneficiary? If they're selling an asset, there's a potential of there being a capital gain that's realized. If they are drawing money from something like an RSP account or a RIF account, there is going to be tax, on the withdrawal.
Josh Sheluk:So this is something where you'd probably need some tax advice. Yeah. If you're going to do this, and thinking about both the short term and long term, financial implications of of making a gift is, there there can be some nuance tax circumstances to think through.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. Absolutely.
Josh Sheluk:Now the I guess the other financial aspect of things is not so much with your financial situation, but then looking at your kid's financial situation. So or whoever again, whoever you're gifting money to. We you we use children or your kids because that's most common, but it could be anybody. It could be a niece, could be a friend, whatever. So there can be ways you could you could argue that the children can use that money more efficiently or more effectively than the parents can at this point.
Josh Sheluk:So if you have let's say you have a $100,000 in a taxable investment account as a parent. Well, if you gift that that to your kids, maybe they can put that money into a TFSA or a first home savings account or an RSP or something like that, where there can be, a more tax advantage growing of wealth over time that Yeah. Isn't accessible to the parents based on their age or or point point in life.
Amanda McKenna:Yep. I think that's a key point that a lot of people are looking at too is gifting it now while the kids are younger and letting that wealth grow. They would have much longer time horizon than waiting till they pass away when they're maybe even closer to retirement. So that's something to consider as well.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Now what about not necessarily a monetary gift, but a gift of an asset, like a a house or a cottage or something like that? Are there the same considerations, or are there extra layers that need to be thought of?
Amanda McKenna:I think there's definitely extra layers when it comes to property, especially, looking at the dynamics of the children and their relationships. It can get a little messy if they're maybe they're married, and your intention were to only gift this to the child, and then they have, you know, a spouse involved. So who's to say that they don't both own that? So there's legal aspects that you'd have to make sure are in place, to avoid any, again, family drama.
Josh Sheluk:So it
Amanda McKenna:all comes back to that, making sure you're protected and that the, intentions of your gift are put in place properly.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. So I've come across specifically with with property a couple interesting, call them interesting situations over the years. One was putting their adult child on title of their home, Mhmm. And he was living with his spouse in a basement unit in that same home. And him and his spouse split.
Josh Sheluk:The child and and the spouse split. Now that was considered the matrimonial home.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah.
Josh Sheluk:So all of a sudden, the 2 parents are owners on the house. The son is an owner on the house, but also his ex partner who are now separated, she's also an owner on the house because it's considered matrimonial property. And, generally speaking, a matrimonial home is always subject to split on relationship breakdown on separation. So, that can be pretty hairy. I've also seen it where a cottage, the child was added as a co owner joint owner on a cottage, and the cottage for whatever reason was considered a matrimonial home when there's separation from, the child and his partner.
Josh Sheluk:And again, all excited, and now you have the ex spouse who's a part owner of a family asset like a cottage or a house, and they can be pretty hairy. I I can't imagine what the family drama would be like in such a situation, but, it would probably make for a good sitcom.
Amanda McKenna:Oh, absolutely. I think you're deciding to do this. Maybe this is just, like, a pessimistic viewpoint, but you you have to think, how could this go so very wrong before you decide to do it? Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda McKenna:And these are good examples of how it could go very, very wrong very quickly.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. You call it pessimistic. We would also call it realistic. Realistic? Yeah.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Like, you you have to, I think, take a bit of a cynical view on on some of these planning options because the if it goes right, great. But if it goes wrong, it goes so horribly and totally wrong that it's absolutely atrocious. So Yeah. This is another one where it gets some advice professionally if you're going through this this type of plan, legal advice, especially if you're gifting property or, putting somebody on title of a property would be definitely worthwhile.
Josh Sheluk:And the we can't really give any blanket advice here because the the legalities are slightly different in every province. So
Amanda McKenna:Absolutely.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Broad broadly speaking, inheritance and and gift is held outside of matrimonial property, but, again, there are nuances to that, like the matrimonial home and and other things that might come along from time to time that we're not thinking of. So definitely get some good advice on that side of things as well.
Amanda McKenna:Yeah. Absolutely. Any
Josh Sheluk:other things on the legal side of things that you think people should be thinking of as they go down this path?
Amanda McKenna:If you decide to gift this money, you earlier, then make sure that your your will is set up keeping that in mind. So, if you're changing your plan, but you still have your existing plan on how you were gonna divide up the state, you have to keep those, you know, in in in check to make sure it all kind of balances out in the end.
Josh Sheluk:Such a great point because I bet you if we pulled our audience right now, when's the last time you looked at your will? Yeah. Half of them haven't looked at it in 5 years. Probably a quarter of them don't have a will, and a quarter of them it's up to date. Right?
Josh Sheluk:So Exactly. It is something to make sure that you're revisiting because we have people come in all the time and say, well, I I gave a 100,000 to this child, and that'll be equalized in the will. Well, have you updated your will? No. Well, then how's it gonna be equalized?
Josh Sheluk:Because it's not gonna be equalized unless you put it in writing, put it on paper, and make sure that there there's a legal document that's going to support that. So that's an incredibly important point, and I'm glad you brought it up. So just as we kinda bring everything full circle here, is there anything, any couple of ideas, 1, 2, 3 points that you would you would leave people with as we as we kinda wrap up the topic of gifting?
Amanda McKenna:So I think, yeah, before you decide to do to embark on this great wealth transfer between with your kids is,
Josh Sheluk:huge. Like we're like the the herd of antelope crossing the great plains to find the the the pool of water.
Amanda McKenna:Very epic. Very epic. Is to look at your own financial situation first and make sure that it doesn't completely derail your plans. And then I think look at it in terms of, you know, are you going to be okay once this money leaves your hands that you will not have control over what your children decide to do with it? And then the third point is get professional help on and executing these transfers, whether from a financial adviser, planner, lawyer.
Amanda McKenna:Make sure, you know, everything is covered so that you can make sure this transfer happens in the way that you attend intended to do, from the best way that you can. It's not always gonna go exactly the way you want to, but if you can get those steps taken care of first before you decide to do it, I think you'll be in a better spot.
Josh Sheluk:Yeah. Great great summary of things that you should think of. And I coming back to that first point, it's very much put your own oxygen mask on before you put your child's oxygen mask on as Yeah. You know, we'll we'll use the plain analogy there. So so great, great to have you, Amanda.
Josh Sheluk:Some great insights. Thanks for thanks for joining us today.
Amanda McKenna:Sounds good. Thanks, Josh.
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