S3: E36: Creating Visibility in C-Suite with Terri McDowell

Show Notes

“I thought I'm pretty good at what I do. Am I prepared to sacrifice all of that? And why should I have to?“

In this episode, Terri McDowell (She/Her), a Saskatchewan-born, C-Suite business leader gets vulnerable about what is was like transitioning in and on the job, in a profession that's male, cisgender dominant; and she shows us how she is inspiring transgender people professionally, through ‘the art of the possible.’

A Partner & Principal at financial advisory firm Ernst and Young (EY), Terri vulnerably shares, as a transgender woman, challenges and triumphs of her own personal gender transition on the job in a male and cisgender dominated profession, and provides tips on being allies on-the-job and how to avoid corporate pink-washing in an historically challenging period for transgender human rights worldwide.

Show links:

- Hey, Cis! TD Connected Community Moment: https://www.menti.com/alkb4uo5chb8 to participate. Then click here for results.

- Terri’s CGLCC Business Leader of the Year award: 

- https://www.simplygoodform.ca/blog/peak-inside-the-Black-and-White-Gala 

- https://www.cglcc.ca/2022/11/16/business-leadership-award-winners-2022/ 

- Vulnerability of transgender human rights and anti-trans legislation: 

• https://19thnews.org/2023/01/trans-health-care-bills-2023-legislative-session-lgbtq/
• https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights

Produced and edited in-house.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/simply-good-form/ 

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/SimplyGoodForm 

Hey, Cis! Season 3 is proudly partnered with TD Bank Group.

MUSIC: 

Hey, Cis! thanks musical artist Craymo for our intro/extro song: Be Myself

Written by: Craig Stephen Raymo/Brandon Jarrett/Joshua Daniel Hershfield (c) (p) 2015 Craymo Music, BMI/Moho Music, ASCAP

Website: http://www.Craymo.com

For more beyond binary conversations on being better humans, tips for being an inclusive leader in your field and connecting with trans folks from coast-to-coast, subscribe to Hey, Cis! on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Creators and Guests

Host

Cyn Sweeney

Co-Host Hey, Cis! Long-clawed mama bear. Curious social explorer with rose-coloured glasses. Storyteller and accidental entrepreneur. Champion for equity, inclusion and belonging. Not neutral.

Host

Isaac Cook

Co-Host Hey, Cis! Linguistic fact-finder, digitally-inspired. Trans, non-binary, queer person with a passion for making change. Elevated home-chef and 'Best in Show'

What is Simply Beyond?

A Simply Good Form podcast exploring transgender inclusion, gender diversity, and inclusive leadership — one bold conversation at a time.

Hosted by award-winning advocate and proud mama bear Cyndi Sweeney (she/her), Simply Beyond amplifies the lived experiences of trans, non-binary, and 2SLGBTQIA+ voices across Canada and beyond.

Through real stories, candid conversations, and practical insights, we go beyond the binary to build connection, foster belonging, and inspire allyship at home, at work, and in our communities.

Whether you're a curious ally, a parent of a trans kid, or a leader working to create safer, more inclusive spaces — you're in the right place.

Because every voice matters. And every story counts.

Isaac Cook: 00:04

Hey, Cis! From coast to coast, we're bridging the gap between the cisgender and transgender community, creating meaningful dialogue and space to learn and grow.

Cyn Sweeney: 00:11

Join us as we connect with our community, break down tough conversations, and get comfortable being better humans. Happy 2023 and welcome to Hey Sis. Thank you so much for joining us for another incredible year. We would have never thought back in October of twenty twenty when we first kicked it off that this journey would bring us to where we are today, halfway through season three.

Isaac Cook: 00:44

And this time of the year, everyone is talking about New Year's resolutions. But however, here at Simply Good Form, we're big fans of the phrase evolution instead, because as we all know, growing is always a journey and not a one and done situation. So this month, we wanna take a quick second to highlight some up and coming and interesting LGBTQ plus news. Stranger Things star Noah Schnapp says he's, quote, unquote, more similar to his on screen character than he thought. CNN Entertainment reports that Noah shared a TikTok video on January 5 in which he identifies self as gay.

Isaac Cook: 01:22

The text on screen in the video reads, when I finally told my friends and family I was gay after being scared in the closet for eighteen years, they all said, we know.

Cyn Sweeney: 01:30

I love that. I love that so much because it really does give representation, doesn't it, to those that are living maybe in a rural area that don't have a lot of representation. I know I've watched all of Stranger Things and I loved it, but the only reason I had gotten into it was because of my kids. So I know it's huge with younger generations. More visibility is and representation is awesome.

Isaac Cook: 01:53

Well, yeah, and as you said, that's the biggest thing, especially for individuals in rural or smaller communities where they don't have anyone around them that identifies as to as LGBTQ plus. So it's nice to see folks on the big screen who also identify and that we can. Represent ourselves and relate to

Cyn Sweeney: 02:09

in other news. Just looking at what's been going on around the world, I think just before just before the Christmas break there, Scotland had introduced some new legislation that could help, I guess, simplify the gender marker and name change, making it more accessible. It looked like the headline I saw was that trans activists are blasting the Tory government in England because they're looking at maybe doing some reform, which might mean that they're not going to recognise and help to support in England and Wales the great moves that Scotland is looking at trying to make accessibility of gender affirming social transition, like changing your name and your gender marker, more accessible. So it's something that is worth watching that space and seeing what's happening, especially as we look to help simplify name changes and gender markers here with the new program we're going to be developing with the Mental Health Foundation of Nova Scotia in 2023, just to help help people make it a little bit simpler to get the paperwork that you need and and then to actually get someone to help sign it at not an exuberant cost.

Isaac Cook: 03:17

Yeah, and so many folks don't realize how strenuous that process was. You know, it's been, oh, almost a decade now since I changed my name, and the process has changed some for the good, some for the worse. So, you know, learning to to navigate that system is never the easiest, especially in in these types of areas. Now today, Cyndi and I are joined by a very special Terri McDowell. Terri, sheher, is an active advocate for LGBTQ plus rights in North America and around the globe.

Isaac Cook: 03:58

She has spoken in a variety of forums on her business rationale and societal importance of DEI initiatives in the workplace. Terri is a strong believer that visibility matters. As a trans woman herself and a highly regarded professional in the financial community, Teri believes in the importance of recognizing that transgender individuals exist across the globe, careers, and across society. Welcome to Hey Cis, Terri.

Terri McDowell: 04:21

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Isaac Cook: 04:24

Thank you so much for joining us today. It's great pleasure to have you here. So let's kick things first off with a kind of, hey, sis classic icebreaker. Where are you from? Where do you call home?

Isaac Cook: 04:37

And perhaps can you share a little bit about your coming out story?

Terri McDowell: 04:40

Sure. I'm happy to dive into that personal history. So my name's Terri McDowell, pronouns are she and her. I'm actually born and raised in Saskatchewan. So I'm Canadian by birth and born and raised out West.

Terri McDowell: 04:55

I have lived in a number of places over the course of a very long professional career. I am a partner with a firm here called Ernst and Young, which is a financial advisory firm principally. I'm a tax partner. I principally work in the area of mergers and acquisitions, international finance, that type of thing. I've been with the firm for a very long time, so well over thirty five years now.

Terri McDowell: 05:25

Kind of pains me to say that. I currently reside and call Toronto home. This is actually the third time that I've lived in Toronto. I lived here in the nineties. I went abroad and came back in the February, went abroad again, and came back to Toronto in 2019.

Terri McDowell: 05:42

I have also had the opportunity to work in New York City, for a total of fifteen years. I was there twice. I have lived and worked out of Miami, and I've lived and worked around Western Canada earlier in my career. I am also a transgender woman, and I did go through my own personal gender transition on the job here here at I have been with ever since I graduated from the University of Saskatchewan back in the nineteen eighties. So that's the the quick bio on on who I am and how I ended up in Toronto and a little bit of what it's like to to transition in your job and on the job and with the same organization.

Terri McDowell: 06:28

So I'm happy to share my own experience because it's quite a good one, to be honest.

Cyn Sweeney: 06:33

Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your background. And I love like how vast it is geographically. I met Teri at the CGLCC Awards in November, and it was just such a pleasure to talk to you there and see you up on stage and be recognized as the CGLCC LGBTQ plus Business Leader of the Year. That must have felt pretty exciting for you.

Terri McDowell: 07:03

Yeah, it definitely was, As you would have heard, because you were there in person, I would suggest there's a lot more active advocates in the public forum than perhaps myself. My personal advocacy approach has been more by living visibly and making it clear where the transgender community fits in the broader society, trying to be as visible as possible. I think visibility truly matters to our community. So that was a big part of it. My history with the CGLCC goes back a couple of years now.

Terri McDowell: 07:41

As I said, I moved back to Toronto in 2019, and that's when I really kind of got exposed to the organization, learned who they were and the tremendous work that they actually do in connecting the community. And I had the opportunity to work with them a couple of times, one of the more recent ones being in 2021, when they in conjunction with the UN, in conjunction with the World Economic Forum, they did a symposium and a panel on the UN's anti discrimination standards and in particular engaged me to work on a panel for anti discrimination in the workplace. And I would suggest for from an advocacy viewpoint, that was perhaps a breakthrough moment for me in terms of just the importance to it. I, you know, I've never downplayed the importance of advocacy, but I think that really resonated with me, what we can all kind of do on a personal individual front. And, you know, the the quick anecdote that I would give there is the the session we did, of which I was part of the panel, it was an in camera session, so people were anonymous, if you will.

Terri McDowell: 08:54

But we had 70 c suite leaders from around the world, and these were CEOs or top executives, and the tech companies were well represented, the banks were well represented, but there's only 70 there. And I know after the panel was done, I was speaking with one of my fellow panelists. And I said, said, yeah, that, you know, I really enjoyed that. That was good. And there was only 70.

Terri McDowell: 09:14

But her comment to me, which really resonated is she said, Terri, to a degree, you're missing the point. There were 70 people in the room. But when you think about the constituency that they represent, they represented hundreds of thousands, in fact, of employees. And we had the right level of person to hear the message and take the message forward. So that really did kind of resonate with me.

Terri McDowell: 09:39

And as I say, that's pretty recent. That just kind of hit me in the last couple of years of the impact you can have when you're given the honor and privilege of having a platform to speak to. Much like these webcasts, you never know who's listening. You never know who it's going to resonate the most with and and what good can come out of it.

Isaac Cook: 09:56

Yeah. Absolutely. I think for me too, like one of the most underappreciated forms of advocacy is first and foremost living your true authentic self. And, you know, just because you're not using social media every single day and being in those spaces, that doesn't mean you aren't advocating. But second thing is that advocacy and inclusion for me at least, it's a very top down when it comes to the workplace and that if the individuals who are at the C Suite don't get it, then those underneath them won't also follow suit.

Isaac Cook: 10:27

To your point exactly, you know, those 70 folks that were in the room, yes, there was only 70, but you know, there's real, real power to that. And the individuals underneath them who might need that support.

Cyn Sweeney: 10:38

Takes me back to the Vidal Sassoon, you know, they told two friends and they told two friends and so on and so on. And you know, I think like every conversation is so important because it creates that space and that narrative to have someone take that forward and continue the conversation and find the words to be having these important conversations. And so whether you're reaching 70 that exponentially goes out or you're reaching one person that could have an influence on one other person, it's keeping that momentum going. If we're not talking about it, we're not changing. We're not breaking down barriers.

Cyn Sweeney: 11:16

Yeah. What an honor.

Isaac Cook: 11:23

So you described yourself I know you mentioned before you don't use social media too much, but on LinkedIn, you did describe yourself as a numbers person. So I was just really curious if there's any significant numbers when it comes to trans and non binary inclusion in Canada that stand out to you the most. Or perhaps maybe on the flip side, are there any numbers or statistics or metrics that we don't have that you wish we did?

Terri McDowell: 11:47

Yeah. So most of the most of the statistics that I and and, again, statistics vary, of course, Isaac. I mean, it depends on the source. It depends on the bias of the sample. It depends upon the purpose of the census taker, if you will, and all the rest of it.

Terri McDowell: 12:02

So I'm very sensitive to that. Take the numbers for what they are. It would be the caveat I would put around anything that I say in this regard. I'd also say that I find the statistics on a Canada only basis to be kind of wanting. It's very difficult to find a lot of Canada only statistics on transgender community in particular, where we're represented, what it looks like across the country, urban rural splits, etcetera.

Terri McDowell: 12:31

It kind of goes without saying, as a member of the constituency, we are everywhere. I mean, we always have been, we always will be. And unfortunately, when I think about statistics and when I think about numbers, they're kind of on the horrific side that come to mind. I mean, we've just seen this tremendous explosion in anti LGBTQ legislation across North America. I first started talking about this maybe just three years ago, and at that point, you know, you could say that at various levels of government, there was maybe a 100 bills that were progressing.

Terri McDowell: 13:06

We're just into the start of 2023, and that number is triple. It's it's now almost 300 anti LGBTQ pieces of legislation that are advancing through various levels of government, whether that's local government at the school board levels, whether that's state level in in The US, or whether it's it's, in some cases, even federal that's starting to be talked about or advanced. You know, that that number is truly scary, particularly when you look at the disproportionate number of those bills overall to legislative agendas. And then when you look at the number of those bills that are specifically targeted at the transgender community, it's truly horrifying. Again, statistics vary, of course, but the statistic I see published the most or suggested the most is, you know, the transgender communities, maybe three percent of the general population at most.

Terri McDowell: 14:00

And when you then look at the disproportionate cost, the disproportionate effort, the disproportionate legislative push that is going on right now, you know that there's more at stake here. It is human rights at its core. It's basic human rights. The motivation to strip affirming health care away from the community, the inability for people to get proper educations as a result of segregations in the schools that are being enforced. And, you know, that cascades into suicidal ideation.

Terri McDowell: 14:34

Let's be completely harsh with where it leads, particularly for vulnerable personalities that are, you know, just coming to grips with their own sense of self in their teens, preteens, or, you know, throughout throughout their their journey, whenever that is. So it is a scary time. It is an inflection point. Just last week, Oklahoma introduced anti trans legislation at their state senate level, which is going to deny gender affirming care to anyone under the age of 26. So we're not talking minors, we're not talking children, know, we're now talking adults.

Terri McDowell: 15:15

So individuals who can serve in the military, individuals who can vote, individuals who can do most things you would expect of adults. And now they're saying you cannot go to a doctor to discuss your gender. And I mean, that's as scary as it comes. It is being advanced at the state legislature. Only, that's Oklahoma.

Terri McDowell: 15:37

You you could say, well, that's a long ways from here. It's not, it spills over very rapidly. We've already seen that. It just takes one to kind of put it out there. And so that legislation needs to be stopped.

Terri McDowell: 15:49

It needs to be called out. And a lot of the legislation has been around. We need to protect kids. That's been the message that they wrapped it up into. Now the curtain is down.

Terri McDowell: 16:01

This has never been about kids. This is about hate. This is about discrimination. And this is about a far right agenda to try to stop out a trans existence. And that will never happen.

Terri McDowell: 16:12

We've always been here. We always will be here. That's just not going to go away. It's historically proven. It's scientifically proven.

Terri McDowell: 16:21

So it shocks me that in this day and age, people can set aside science so easily.

Cyn Sweeney: 16:26

It's scary, like, when you think about that not in my backyard as well, because like you said, there is that idea of a trickling north over the border. I think there was recently some rollback even in Ontario around a clinic that was providing gender affirming care. I believe it's had to close its doors, but there was lot of things happening around that. And what I see through emails from hard right organizations that are kind of disguising themselves as sharing information but really driving that fear. In a podcast recently that I had heard, I think Isaac and I were chatting about it, when they talk about trying to build a narrative around detransitioning.

Cyn Sweeney: 17:08

And we had a long conversation around that in the idea of talking about detransitioning and not really recognizing that we're kind of all, everybody is transitioning all of the time. So you're never really detransitioning. You're evolving and you're moving forward. And maybe somebody might have transitioned in a very binary in the beginning and then found that comfort space to sit somewhere in non binary gender fluid later on as well, which is certainly not detransitioning. It's a it's a continued growth of self.

Cyn Sweeney: 17:40

And so that is it's a really scary rhetoric that, you know, people that aren't informed when they hear that they think, you know, some of this is is factual and it's really it's propaganda.

Terri McDowell: 17:51

Yeah. Mean, the detransitioning aspect is an interesting one, of course, and it's been very high in the press in the last month or so as well with some high profile individuals in the community, you know, stating their intent to detransition, etcetera. But again, because Isaac led me to numbers, I mean, I do think you have to talk math a little bit around this. There's maybe three percent of the population of that, probably fifty percent or so choose to medically transition one way or another. So now you're talking one and a half percent of the population.

Terri McDowell: 18:26

And when you really start to talk about de transitioning for whatever reasons and under whatever definitions, it falls to something like 5% of that one and a half percent that perhaps entertain the idea of, hey, I want something different once I've chosen a gender affirming care. So it becomes a very, very small sliver of the population. And again, not to dismiss it at all for all the reasons that you said, everybody's an individual. I Everybody has their own motivations for how they perceive, how they go through life, who they are. But again, the disproportionate glomming on to those relatively rare stories of true detransition post medical transition.

Terri McDowell: 19:09

Let's put it in its proper place and time. Those are pretty isolated incidents that occur. Again, not to denigrate them, not to dismiss them, they certainly happen. And most of us that have been in community for as long as I have, for example, you're going to become aware of that. But, you know, both from more scientific basis and my own personal experience, it's extremely rare.

Isaac Cook: 19:33

Yeah. In my experiences, like also as a trans person, I think a lot of folks even within the community, they get very hung up on the definition of it. And I won't harbor too long on it, but for instance, to to one person detransitioning could just be I'm no longer taking hormone therapy or going through the medical side of it. For other people, it could be that social part that they're, you know, maybe going by a name or pronouns that more align with their sexes assignment at birth. Like, there's so many different aspects to it that we don't think about.

Isaac Cook: 20:02

And to your point exactly, Terri, that it is very a very small portion of the community that fall under that that category and doesn't dismiss the experience whatsoever. But it's still it's it's always a thing that the very right ideologies like to grab onto and utilize as, fuel for the fire.

Terri McDowell: 20:23

They choose not to want to hear the success stories.

Cyn Sweeney: 20:26

It's so true. Can I just I was going to add just as a parent, I've had the pleasure of supporting like we're wholeheartedly support our child who who transitioned at the age of 10, but they weren't in an inclusive school, say in an environment? They transitioned, but it was interesting for them, watching at the very beginning when being assigned female at birth and transitioning and changing their name and their hair and using their name and masculine hehim pronouns. They went sort of very, very masculine. And there was a lot of, you know, we witnessed sort of a lot of behaviors of performing self in a way that was going to be acceptable to the community that they were in.

Cyn Sweeney: 21:10

And when they finally moved into a school that was more accepting and had representation from within the community, we saw this amazing blossoming of them just really celebrating their own sense of self and going more fluid. Now, they wear what they want. They experiment with makeup sometimes. They don't feel like they have to fit into a box that is to be approved by somebody else. They are themselves.

Cyn Sweeney: 21:36

That's just one other example of the culture that you're in and the space that you're in can really define how one is able to kind of show themselves to the world and where they sit. And so around transitioning, I would never say that they've de transitioned. They've continued their transition to become more free, which is beautiful to see as a parent. If you don't give your children the opportunity to show themselves to the world, then you're really limiting their opportunities. I'd be curious, Teri, about yourself then transitioning.

Cyn Sweeney: 22:16

So you graduated university, you went straight to which I have to say at the very beginning at the CDLCC Awards, was like, What is I didn't know the acronym and I didn't know if I was one of the only ones, but of course I know Ernst Young and going to a business like that. Did you go to Toronto right away and begin there with And what point were you in your career when you decided to transition while being employed there?

Terri McDowell: 22:48

Yeah, so there's a lot wrapped up in that because it is almost, as I say, it's over a thirty five year career, including a period of open transition at work. So my personal story, and again, this is just my story, of course. I mean, everyone has their own individual footprint of their life history, but I've always known I was transgender. I mean, like your child, since you just inherently knew, being of the age that I am and the age that I grew up in, I didn't have the language around it. I didn't really know what that meant.

Terri McDowell: 23:22

And I also grew up in a very rural area. I grew up in rural Saskatchewan on a farm, so I didn't have a lot of exposure to it. My exposure to the trans community probably became more formalized in my twenties, my mid twenties, I would suggest. So I graduated from the University of Saskatchewan and I went to work for We were under a different name at that point. Ernst and Young is the name now.

Terri McDowell: 23:49

And I went to work for them right out of the university. So that was 1985. And again, really didn't know the trans community. I've been really fortunate in my life that I've always had a few people that understood me and got me and were there for me. And that goes all the way back to my twenties for sure.

Terri McDowell: 24:09

So by my twenties, was able to kind of socially transition with deep personal relationships to a degree with family, to a degree with social relationships. But my professional environment was different. Fairly conservative environment, you know, financial community, the Bay Street crowd, call it what you will. At that point, was still in Western Canada, smaller offices. And, you know, I can even put it in the context of grander gender parity, if you will.

Terri McDowell: 24:37

I, it was a very male dominated culture at the time. I started in Saskatchewan. I spent some time in Calgary. My first office that I was in, there was eight partners, all white men. Moved to a slightly larger office, maybe 20 partners, still all white men.

Terri McDowell: 24:56

I didn't know a female partner in the firm until I moved to Toronto in the 1990s. And at that point it was maybe 5% of the general population of the firm. And I certainly didn't know anyone who was knowingly and visibly trans. So I had the opportunity, as I said earlier, to move a lot with firm. And that actually helped me on a gender transition journey in the workplace as well, because each time that I would show up at a new office, I would be coming with the skill set that got me to the table, got me to the office, made me valuable to that office.

Terri McDowell: 25:32

I was allowed to present a little differently. I was allowed to explore a little more aggressively. And so I think by the time I was in my thirties and had become a close to partner than made partner sort of thing, I was already perceived as pretty gender fluid. I think that was also a time when just gay rights overall in the workplace started to become more common. More people on, you know, again, mostly gay men in the profession that I worked with, a few lesbians that had come out, again, very few trans people that I knew of.

Terri McDowell: 26:07

I knew of them in other forums at that point, so I started to realize, hey, this is actually possible. As early as the early 1990s, the intent had been get a little bit financially established and transition. And back in the day, and it still happens today, although I think it's increasingly difficult today. Back then, the more common route was to go what we call going stealth. And so someone would abandon their past history as much as they could, leave their job, oftentimes lose their families, lose that prior identity, if you will, and then transition socially, personally, sometimes medically, and emerge in a new persona.

Terri McDowell: 26:47

I did entertain that. I knew people who'd done it and I thought about it, but I, it was probably career helped me back as much as anything. I thought I'm pretty good at what I do. Do I, you know, am I prepared to sacrifice all of that and why should I have to? So that was, that was a little bit of a moment, I think in the late nineties.

Terri McDowell: 27:08

Was just a reevaluation of self worth, to be honest, and thinking I can do this differently now. Definitely respect why people do that, how they do it. I would also suggest, I think that's next to impossible to do in today's day and age. If you think back to the 80s and 90s, we were in the pre digital age. I think given where we are now, everyone has a digital footprint from the day that they're born.

Terri McDowell: 27:30

And so to truly go stealth, people are going find out your history if they truly want to know your history for whatever reason. So I'm not sure it's a bad thing. At the end of the day, nobody should have to do that in my mind. But that's a very long winded answer to a very specific question. I'm happy to talk more about the on the workplace experience, if you like.

Terri McDowell: 27:54

I think that context is important.

Cyn Sweeney: 27:56

No, it's so important. And I think it must have felt like in the beginning, isolating for you, not seeing any other trans people or even broader members of the 2SLGBTQ plus community working in finance and numbers, as you say, on Bay Street.

Terri McDowell: 28:13

So now, I'm not alone anymore. Are other members of the community who are quite visible and have chosen to be quite visible. And that's really comforting. You know, my own experience, as I say, was probably perceived as gender fluid for a very long period of time leading up to just fully adopting my gender in the workplace. That was fairly recent, 1738 is when I changed pronouns, for example, officially at work, I'd already changed legal IDs, etcetera.

Terri McDowell: 28:47

But I grew up with a lot of these people professionally, both partners, colleagues, but also clients. And with due respect to other members of the community, I do think it's different for a transgender individual than others. We are extremely visible as we adopt, as we choose to embrace ourselves. I think members of the gay community, members of the lesbian community, they can choose a little more in terms of how much of themselves they wish to disclose in any given environment. For those of us that openly adopt transition, it's not quite so easy.

Terri McDowell: 29:24

You present differently, you dress differently, you are addressed differently, etcetera. So that was a big personal challenge, I would say, but professionally it felt like the right thing to do.

Cyn Sweeney: 29:35

What were your biggest challenges then in transitioning in the workplace at that time, like with regards to maybe policies or practices that were there? I'm thinking maybe like with your transition, you probably really helped to shape policies that might now be in place at Yeah,

Terri McDowell: 29:50

it was a little bit chicken and egg, to be honest. Our organization, like a lot of organizations, have evolved so quickly on this front in the last ten to fifteen years that a lot of policies were already in place. Things like gender neutral bathrooms, for example, had been instituted. The ability to state your chosen pronouns goes back quite a number of years. And I have been told, I don't know this empirically, that I'm the most senior person in the firm to have openly transitioned on the job.

Terri McDowell: 30:21

We have others, of course, but I'm a partner and a fairly senior partner. So definitely I've had opportunities to get more of an audience on certain things, but also to help shape what future policy should look like. But one of the things that we already had in place is our pathways to transition medical assistance programs. So depending where you are in North America in particular, I am not as well versed outside of North America on government programs necessarily, but in a lot of places in North America, gender affirming care is not supported, it's not insured, etcetera. And so we do do that as an organization.

Terri McDowell: 31:03

Now we have enhanced those benefits considerably in the last couple of years. And when I say we, I'm speaking but I call it the broader community. A lot of similar firms have done the same thing. You know, if you go around the major financial institutions here in the country, you go to our direct competitors in the financial advisory firm. Virtually everyone has those programs now.

Terri McDowell: 31:25

To think of that fifteen years ago, probably even ten years ago, really was hardly on anyone's radar, let alone thinking that, you know, we want to be seen as leaders and that this is important to our people. So let's get on board. And despite all of my negativity earlier about anti trans legislation, etcetera, there's a lot of good things happening in the broader community, including the corporate world. And those strides are tremendous.

Isaac Cook: 31:55

Is all about connecting communities and thanks to support from TD Bank Group,

Cyn Sweeney: 31:59

here is this episode's Connected Community Moment.

Isaac Cook: 32:02

It's a new year and a new Menti word cloud. Hey Hey Sis is all about shifting binary barriers to inclusion and building better humans one conversation at a time. What is an evolution, not a resolution, that you're aiming to do more or shift in 2023 regarding being a better human? Check out the link in the show notes to share your thoughts. Here's what Terri had to say.

Terri McDowell: 32:23

This sounds incredibly pedantic, but I'll say it anyway. I think recognizing the importance of basic kindness and living that value is just so critical. Kindness matters. And once you open with kindness, lot of things fall away very quickly. It's hard to confront.

Terri McDowell: 32:40

It's hard to be aggressive. It's hard to be antagonistic when you've got a receptive audience as your counterparty and someone who's an active listener, someone who's listening to you. In a very broad sense, I would say lead with kindness is my goal.

Isaac Cook: 32:58

This has been a Jesus and TD Bank Group Connected Communities moment because inclusion matters.

Cyn Sweeney: 33:03

It's inspiring when you're saying, Terri, that there's so many different financial institutions and businesses that are implementing. But I don't know whether it's here on the East Coast or not, but we still find that there's still a lot of catch up. There's still organizations where there's still, well, pronouns and having an issue around pronouns and the idea of, well, it shouldn't mandatory and where's the fine line? How do you invite people to share the pronouns, not making it absolutely a must do? And so I'd love to ask you a little bit about that.

Cyn Sweeney: 33:36

I'd also, while I have the thought in my mind, because I have ADHD and if I don't say it when I think it, it'll just disappear. The idea of, for new hires that are coming into your business, because I find it so inspiring to know if you're getting into this industry and you're potentially thinking about maybe your home isn't supportive or accepting, are employers that can support your transition along the way. How do new hires find that information? Because they might not think to ask or they might like, is other, is it readily available? Is that something that's part of the onboarding process and the orientation for new hires?

Terri McDowell: 34:16

Yeah, hesitate to say that it's front and center in the hiring process. I think a little bit of it is due diligence on behalf of candidates as well. You don't have to look very hard to find the policies that our organization and most organizations embrace. So I certainly have a recommendation to any hire coming off campus, for example, whether whether they're in community or not, you know, do your homework, know who you're interviewing with as much as the interviewer wants to know who you are. And that will inform to a degree because I'm also not naive.

Terri McDowell: 34:53

There's definitely businesses out there that all you have to do is look at their website and go, I am not going to fit here. You know, the ideals are pretty clear. I won't name any of them on this call, but, you know, I think in community they become known very quickly. So, you know, you look on a website, for example, and you will find it now. There's a big difference between words and actions, definitely.

Terri McDowell: 35:17

And, you know, I'm going to personalize for a second. I think that in part is what prompted me to become more of an advocate, more visible in community. I think visibility matters. I go back to my own experience coming through the system and again, in the context of broader gender parity, it took me a long time to find women in the border. Part of that is where I started.

Terri McDowell: 35:43

Part of that was the communities I grew up in. Part of that was the profession that I chose. It was all of the above. So I knew once I started to see more gender parity being embraced in the workplace, I started to see more of a glimmer that there is a future here. Then I saw it in horizontally.

Terri McDowell: 36:02

Saw other organizations where not just women, but in some cases trans individuals were being elevated, were on a good career path. You start to realize the art of the possible. You start to realize this is possible. And so looking for pioneers, if you will, looking for people who have carved the course before was really important to me. Part of the reason I choose to do things like this and make it known that yes, I am a trans woman.

Terri McDowell: 36:29

Yes, I work on Bay Street. Yes, this is the career that I've had. Ideally in today's society, particularly with the younger generation, you know, you don't have to be so glacial about who you are and disclosing all of that. It's encouraged. It's in the workplace these days.

Terri McDowell: 36:46

Employers want it as much as the individual needs it. So I do think there's a change there, in particular, I go to the younger generation. They've been a huge inspiration for my journey in terms of just pointing out, anyone who's kind of in community already would have the lack of a better word read me very easily for the last twenty five years. Those who aren't looking don't know what they're looking for, maybe not kind of thing. But as a result of that, I would increasingly have, you know, younger people in particular embracing the ideal of having a senior partner at the firm that would be fully authentic themselves, allowing them to be fully authentic.

Terri McDowell: 37:30

So I do think that's really important. In terms of the onboarding, the on campus recruiting, I mean, you're not going to get to that level unless you've done your own level of diligence to who the organization is that you're talking to, including our own. Just go on for another minute here because it leads to another topic that we touched on earlier, is this whole concept of corporate rainbow washing. It's very real. I mean, it's out there.

Terri McDowell: 37:58

I did a LinkedIn post on this for what it's worth back in June and I didn't specifically reference it as a rainbow washing post, but that was the intent of it. And in its own way, I think that speaks to progress. I mean, if you go back thirty five years, in my case, corporations were not embracing the queer community at all. So put the trans community aside, they were not embracing it. That started to shift in the 90s into the 2000s when we saw pride become more of a corporate recognized event, etcetera.

Terri McDowell: 38:35

And then, you know, did it go too far? Did everybody think that they could plant the flag and claim inclusion? Absolutely. But what it's done now is it's held organizations accountable. And I think that by itself is huge progress.

Terri McDowell: 38:49

You're going to plant the flag in June, you better live the values the other eleven months of the year. It's not a one week of the year opportunity to capitalize. It's a commitment that you make to the community. And if you're not making that community, the community has a right to call you out. Just like I think the community has the responsibility to recognize those that are truly living the values.

Terri McDowell: 39:10

I think it, you know, we have to have it both ways. We can't always be the defiant ones. We can't always be screaming injustice because there's a lot of good things happening out there too, and those need to be applauded.

Isaac Cook: 39:22

I love that. I'm sitting here clapping on mute and everything like that because I think so many folks don't recognize that, you know, yes, you can celebrate pride that one month or one week, one day of the year, but it's exactly to your point. It is a twelve month, 03/1965, seven days a week commitment that you are going to provide individuals within your community the most inclusive, equitable, and diverse environment that they can possibly live in so that they can thrive. And everyone's gonna make mistakes, and I and I think, you know, it's it's realistic to understand that, yes, people are going to make mistakes, but as you said, we need to hold each other accountable to those mistakes. And if they're, you know, severe, that we need to be able to have open dialogue around that.

Isaac Cook: 40:10

So I I I appreciate that comment immensely.

Terri McDowell: 40:13

Yeah. Wonderful. I mean, I will, again, step into personal experience for a moment here in my own kind of, for lack of better word, coming out story at the firm. And when I made the wholehearted decision to be my full self each and every day as I came through the doors, you know, that was a scary moment regardless of seniority, regardless of career, etcetera. The way it came about is, as I say, I've always been really fortunate that I've always had a couple of people close to me that knew me, read me, whatever you want, and just got it.

Terri McDowell: 40:49

And here in Toronto, one of my colleagues was, who was fairly new to me. There's a lot of people I now work with that I hadn't known earlier in my career. And this individual invited me out, we were having coffee and they said to me, you're a transgender woman, but you don't really fully embrace that when you come into work, although most people read you as either a transgender woman or genderfluid. And she said, why is that? And when I left that conversation, I thought, I can't answer that.

Terri McDowell: 41:19

I don't have an answer for that at this point. And so that made me immediately realize, Hey, there's steps I can take here. So I had the opportunity. Again, I recognized my point of privilege, recognized where I was, I'm fairly senior in the organization, so I was able to immediately secure meetings with our top executives, including our chairperson. And every one of them without any prompting, they didn't know what the meeting was necessarily about when I got on their calendar, each and every one of them to a person said, how can we help?

Terri McDowell: 41:53

And you know, that was an amazing relief for me. It was really telling and I mean that's my story. I know that there's some that don't go that way. There's probably an unfortunate number that don't go that way. But now talking to others, I know that others have had that experience in their own organizations.

Terri McDowell: 42:14

So I like to be a glass half full kind of person and the world has shifted so much over, you know, my thirty five plus year working career.

Cyn Sweeney: 42:24

That statement, how can we help? How can we help? It just sets up the platform. We're ready to listen. We're here.

Cyn Sweeney: 42:32

We want to support. For organizations out there that might be like, Okay, well, pride is easy. It's easy. We know what to do. We can put a float in or we can raise the flag.

Cyn Sweeney: 42:49

Maybe it's just not knowing where to start. What are some tips that you might recommend on how organizations can be inclusive or embracing the community the other eleven months of the year?

Terri McDowell: 43:04

Yeah, I think there's and this is not necessarily limited to the workplace. Think there's some very basic things about, you know, lack of assumption is always a good place to start. If you meet a relatively, I'll use the term, a feminine male, I was perceived as one for many, many years kind of thing. You know, don't necessarily assume who that individual is. You've got to get to know them.

Terri McDowell: 43:31

Similarly, if you meet a more masculine, cisgendered female kind of thing, don't make those assumptions. So the use of gender neutral pronouns is important. They reference to partners as opposed to what did you and your husband slash wife do this weekend? That type of thing. I think people are a lot more averse in that than they once were.

Terri McDowell: 43:53

But again, I go back to my time and that was the common question, you know, what did you and your girlfriend? What did you and your wife do in the moment? And then you're tap dancing around, you know, how you describe yourself to others and, you know, who your partner is and and things of that nature. And again, that that's shared across the queer community. I'm I'm I'm well aware.

Terri McDowell: 44:14

So but again, I think wearing the pin doesn't hurt either. You know, that it's just wearing the pin or putting it in your email address, rainbow flag, it signals to people this is a safe space. That's incredibly important to people. And it's not that hard. You know, anyone can slap on a pin, anyone can put it in their can put it in their label.

Terri McDowell: 44:38

Now, flip side of that is, if you're going to identify as an ally or an advocate, or if you are an ally or an advocate, it goes back to, don't advocate when we're in the room, we need you more when we're not in the room. You know, we need to know what's being said and you need to stand up for us when we're not there to do it for ourselves. It's easy to be a hero in the moment kind of thing that, you know, heroes are the heroes that do it when no one's looking kind of thing. Just instilling that from the top down is, is so critical and can't enforce it. You know, people would have to get it into their own DNA.

Terri McDowell: 45:16

That's the thing. But boy, you can certainly set corporate culture in a heartbeat by what comes out of the c suite.

Isaac Cook: 45:22

I'm still over here clapping, and it is so true, though, that that whole trickle down effect really can help change an organization. And I know we only have a couple minutes left here, but I did just want to quickly ask, kind of on the flip side of of Cyndi's questions, but I guess a little bit more personal. You know, as someone in a position of authority in an organization, when there is someone in the workplace struggling train to transition or struggling to come out, Can you maybe provide some examples of either ways that you've done it or ways that you've seen that support kind of in the professional or business environment?

Terri McDowell: 45:56

I'll I'll try, Isaac, again, as anyone listening to this and as you undoubtedly know, this is such a personal journey for everyone, right? So how they choose to embrace it, what they're necessarily seeking for validation, confirmation, affirmation, differs very widely across, we're all individuals. Of course, we differ from one another, right? But there's a couple of things that we've done as an organization that I think have helped. One is we have a team's network.

Terri McDowell: 46:31

Have a gender identity. Now we're a big organization, I realize that. It's not like one size fits all here.

Cyn Sweeney: 46:37

Is it like an ERG, like an employee resource group?

Terri McDowell: 46:39

Yeah. So we have an ERG, but we then even have a more specific one for the trans community, which is just a trans channel. And this is available for employees, it's available to parents, or it's available to allies to a degree. And, you know, I've connected with a lot of people, a lot, it's still a small community within our organization, like most organizations, but that channel has served very well where people get to know who is in community and they can reach out. And frankly, mostly who I've talked to through that channel, there's been a couple of employees that have either come out and are facing specific issues or alternatively are coming out in their journey.

Terri McDowell: 47:23

But more often, it's parents. It's parents that are employees of ours or partners of ours or working with us. And I've met, one experience I had was a partner that I had worked very closely with for years and unbeknownst to me had a trans child. And, I, you know, I did a webcast years later after we were no longer physically in the same location. And I did a webcast internally and he called afterwards and said, I just want you to know, I watched this with my daughter and, you know, she's 14, she's going through it.

Terri McDowell: 47:59

And I did this as a result of, I wanted her to know what possibilities that, you know, it's not about survival, it's about thriving. And you can probably tell, I mean, that one brought tears. That was a hard moment of the importance of being visible. All of those things to the extent you're in an organization that can facilitate it, that you have the critical mass to do it, etcetera, are important. Other ways, again, my experience is my experience and mine alone, but to the extent you are in the privileged position that I am and have the ability to be visible, it allows people to know the art of the possible again.

Cyn Sweeney: 48:42

You're a role model. I mean, really, you are a role model. And I wonder then at this, you know, who would you look to? Who would you say is a role model of yours? Do you have anyone off the top of your mind that you might be able to?

Terri McDowell: 48:56

Yeah, there's definitely a few out there. It was very difficult because of my age and my generation to find trans role models in the professional community, for example. Certainly, there was individuals in the public eye that would come forth, mostly you would find them in communities that I didn't necessarily directly relate to, performing arts, theater, it was on screen, etcetera, valuable in terms of just seeing the visibility of the trans community. But the one individual who I won't go by name, because it would probably be lost to most people, but we had a senior gay woman executive who came out in the firm during her career, and she was a huge influence on me recognizing this is possible. And as she learned more of my story and the fact that I wasn't totally out, but I was largely out kind of thing, she made the comment to me that if I was ready, she said to me, she said this could save lives.

Terri McDowell: 50:02

And I dismissed it, to be honest. I said, I'm a tax partner. I mean, what do you mean? And she instilled in me the visibility matters. And she talked about, as you were going through the system, Terri, you didn't have role models.

Terri McDowell: 50:19

How many times were you close to quitting? How many times did you think I can do this easier? And so to the extent I have heroes, she would be one of them. That was an amazing discussion to have. The fact that the senior person took the time to invest in me and point out what my potential could potentially be in this regard.

Terri McDowell: 50:41

That was a moment of truth for me, think. Thought I'd always been open to a point, had always been truly supportive of the community in various ways, etcetera, but I was starting to feel increasingly hypocritical by not being myself on a daily basis.

Cyn Sweeney: 50:58

Well, thank you so much, Terri. I've literally had shivers for some of the things that you've said. It's so important and valuable, and it's been a great conversation. We hope that we can have you back on the show sometime.

Terri McDowell: 51:09

I'd be pleased to do it. Thanks for having me, Cyn, and likewise, you've been a huge inspiration getting to know you. I mean, parents like yourself are absolutely invaluable. Thank you for having me.

Cyn Sweeney: 51:21

Okay. Well, you.

Terri McDowell: 51:23

Okay. Take care.

Cyn Sweeney: 51:24

That's all the time we have today, folks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Hey Sis.

Isaac Cook: 51:30

The conversation doesn't have to stop here though. If you would like to get in touch with us to ask us a question or share your story on a future episode, you can email us at connectsimplygoodform dot com or visit us on our website at www.haces.com.