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For anyone who says they meat fish and don't practice catch and release, what do you do with your undersize or bycatch fish?
Everyone who fishes will benefit from the science Dr. Andy Danylchuk shares on this podcast.
How do fish breath?
Net vs tail grab?
How do you minimize the impact of handling a fish?
What are the physiological indicators that a fish is ready to be released?
How can everyone make an impact on future generations of fish?
Understanding Andy’s work and how fish respond to being caught will make you a better angler.
https://www.instagram.com/keep.fish.wet/
https://eco.umass.edu/people/faculty/danylchuk-andy-j/
https://www.instagram.com/fishmission/
https://www.instagram.com/patfish/
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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
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weeks ago as
fishing with.
So a few weeks ago, I was fishing
with my buddy and fishing guide.
Pat Beahen and he helped me hook into
my very first steelhead on the fly.
And it was amazing, had so much fun.
And the fishery there is catch and
release and that's completely foreign
to me, cuz I'm used to catching a fish.
If it's legal size, you Bon
and you go home and eat it.
And that's, that's what
fishing has always been to me.
So I had a whole bunch of questions
about catch and release and what's
happening with these fish afterwards
and the effects of, of the catch.
And, and he says, you know, I got
some answers Trav, but what you should
do, there's this really cool guy.
I've done some fishing
with him in the past.
He's done a lot of work on the subject.
He's a biologist and he's a researcher
outta the university of Massachusetts
and you really should reach out to him.
So without further ado, welcome
to this Silvercore Podcast.
Dr.
Andy Danylchuk.
Hey, thanks, Travis.
Wonderful to be here.
Yeah.
So
pat was giving me some insight and.
Amazing guy, by the way, he's got so
much energy, so full of life and I,
uh, absolutely love fishing with him.
And as a fishing guide, I'm gonna put
in the plug since he is a fishing guide.
If you ever had the opportunity
to go out with pat, absolutely.
Take that up.
He's uh, he will make your day.
That's a guarantee.
Absolutely.
He's a, he is a kind soul too.
He's got like a heart of gold and,
uh, yeah, I could not agree more.
He's
just awesome to be totally.
So he was, uh, he was telling me a little
bit about your history and what you do,
but maybe it's better coming from you
than from me third hand through path.
so how did, how do you, what is it that
you do and how did you get into it?
All right.
Well, uh, so right now I'm a professor
of fish conservation at the university
of Massachusetts in Amherst.
Uh, I've been here since 20 2009.
Um, and it was kind of a, you know,
it's never a straight path, right.
So like, it was a very long
circuitous route to get here.
But my origins, I grew up in Southern
Ontario, uh, just outside of Toronto.
Nice.
Uh, and, uh, yeah, and in the suburbs, not
nice, you know, good Canadian boy, you got
that going for you.
Yeah, exactly.
Uh, but growing in this, growing up in
the suburbs, uh, was interesting for sure.
Um, but, um, you know, back, uh, I
guess my, my connection really to,
to Phish and nature and what got me
really going, um, on, on this path was
back when I was five years old, you
know, I was I'm the, um, the fourth
in line in, in kids, in my family.
And, uh, I'm the youngest.
Yeah.
Um, you know, maybe I was a mistake
who knows . Um, but, uh, but, but
when I, when I came along, you know,
my parents were, um, excited to, you
know, they saved up their money total.
Suburb blue collar family.
Um, and my dad was pretty adventurous and
he put us on a plane and, uh, we went to
Andrews island in The Bahamas, and that
was in, uh, 19, 19 73, like super remote.
You know, it was my first trip anywhere.
I was five mm-hmm . Um, and, uh,
my dad stuck a mask on my face and
kind of shoved me in the water.
And I was just like, oh my God, look at,
this is like, the diversity is beautiful.
Check out all these fish they're
Barracuda mm-hmm , they're
not actually going to eat me.
you know, it's really cool.
Um, and that, you know, and that,
that kind of planted that, that
initial seed, um, in terms of this
connection to the water and fish.
And then, uh, when I got back to
Southern Ontario, um, you know,
that there were opportunities for
me to, to start to go fishing.
And, um, I went to, uh,
a relatives, trout pond.
And, uh, had this like cobbled
together, fishing rod with like an
elastic band around the real seat.
It was like, I think it was
seven or something like that.
And, um, and, and I, you know, these,
these fish were like fed, right?
Mm-hmm like, like the relative went
to like the local bakery and got all
the Dale breads and like throw 'em in
these cookie dough, throwing really fat.
Yeah.
They were, they were, yeah, they were
really plum and I didn't know that mm-hmm
um, and so, you know, I casted out this
lure and the thing just like ripped the
reel off the real seat and it exploded.
And, um, and that sort of
opened my eyes up to like how
powerful fish are and how cool.
And we landed it and I got to see it.
And I was just like, wow, this
thing is like pretty amazing.
Um, and you know, it, it made me realize
that that there's this really neat
connection to fish that we can have.
Mm.
Um, and you know, and then growing
up again in the, in the suburbs as
a teen, um, I wouldn't say that I
was perfect uh, but, um, Certainly,
um, you know, and my family was, was
pretty, um, turbulent at the time.
Sure.
And I found a, a really, a really
good friend and his family who
had a cottage, uh, in, um, in, uh,
near George or just a, um, just,
uh, not too far from Georgia bay.
Okay.
Okay.
And, and so we started bass fishing
and fishing for pike and spending
a lot of time on the water.
And, you know, that's when I really
started to, you know, fishing
became like a therapy, right.
Mm-hmm and getting in the water and,
and even seeing what you're fishing for
first then and going fishing for them.
That is so cool.
Um, you know, and, and then I, and
then I got to, um, you know, my, my
undergraduate and started to learn, you
know, and I fell in love with Phish,
fell in love with the environment, and
then started to learn about how poorly.
Humans are handling fish, dealing
with fish in the aquatic environment.
You know, I grew growing up around the
great lakes in the seventies and eighties.
It's like, that's the peak of, you
know, super fun sites, mm-hmm and
pollution and PCBs and all that stuff.
And, and I remember starting to
go fishing to some of the, uh,
other lakes in Southern Ontario.
And, um, you know, the, the ministry gives
you this, this handbook that's this there
mm-hmm and you have to flip through it,
you find the lake and it shows you all the
different color codes of like, whether you
should eat the fish outta this lake, which
species, what size, if you're pregnant,
don't eat any of them gross, you know?
And I was like, how could we, how
could we love fish so much and, and
get so much out of fish yet, be kicking
the crap out of their environment.
Mm.
And so that kind of really, really started
to, you know, because I fell in love
with fish in the environment, you know,
I wanted to kind of use my energy and
interest to kind of protect what I love.
Right.
Sure.
And so that, that was kind of that path
that I went on for my undergraduate and.
My graduate degrees.
Um, and I, I did my undergraduate
at Trent in Ontario and my
PhD at university of Alberta.
Nice.
Um, and all looking at like impacts of
different things on fish populations.
Okay.
Um, and after, you know, after freezing
my, my ass off in, uh, Alberta, you
know, in Edmonton for five years, um,
then I had a, um, a job posting put
past me and it was for a position in the
Turks and CAOs islands in The Bahamas.
And I'm like, can't say, no, I'll
try it.
Why not?
You
can't say no to that.
Can't say no.
Yeah.
So, so I ended up, you know, uh,
I, I didn't think I'd get the job.
I got the job and, and then landed
in the Turks and CACO islands.
And that's when I really started
to focus on recreational fisheries.
Prior, prior to that, it was
in 2000 prior to that move.
A lot of the fish species that I worked
on were like Fathead, minnows and
pumpkin seed sunfish and things that
you could sample a lot of things that
were still important to the ecosystem.
Um, but that weren't really,
um, you know, targeted by
recreational anglers to any great.
Right.
Um, and, but then when I landed
in the church and CAO islands, I
had a friend there exposed me to
bonefish and I was like, holy crap.
Like, this is like, it was the,
the environment was amazing.
The, um, the, the fish was
like the power of that fish.
Um, and I, and I completely fell in love
with the flats and then as a scientist.
Right.
Cause I, my progression as a
scientist sort of, uh, increased in
my knowledge and I started to think
about like, okay, so I'm watching
this bone fish that I'm releasing,
it's a catch and release fishery.
And I'm seeing all these sharks around
and I'm seeing sometimes a shark eats
one and sometimes a shark doesn't.
And I started to look into
the scientific literature in
terms of like, what do we know.
Handling practices on bonefish and back
then, I think that was in 2001 or 2002.
We didn't know anything.
Um, okay.
And so that, just, and, and that just,
I started to dig into the literature
more and started to recognize that, um,
this whole idea of, um, the recreational
fisheries as one, a very important
economic engine mm-hmm , uh, is, is I
think is, is understated and two that,
um, there was then just a, uh, the
beginnings of science that was used to
allow anglers to understand how to better
handle and release fish for those fish.
They, they want to release with,
because the outcome of that event
is like, we want the fish to swim
away, to, to be caught another day
to go back to spawn and do whatever.
Right.
Sure.
And.
Um, and then when you start looking into
the numbers a little bit more, um, more
fish are actually released in recreational
fisheries than caught, uh, than, and
then, then landed than harvested.
Um, and then that kind of opened my eyes
up more to the, to the magnitude and the
importance of this development of best
practices for catch and release, and also
to make sure that they're science based.
So since that time, you know, for the
past 20, some odd years now, uh, my
research has a good part of it has focused
on sort of using science to, and the
scientific method to, um, figure out how
fish are responding to different handling
techniques and then how we can use.
The science to, um, to develop
these best practices that we
can put back into the hands of
anglers.
Right.
So we always, you know, talk about
and hear about the effects of
commercial fishing on fish populations.
Uh, what effect mind you, there's
always regulations being put in around,
uh, recreational fishing and their
recreational fishers say, absolutely.
You know, we're not, we're not
even making a dent on this.
Look at all the commercial people
look at what they're doing.
Is that true?
Like, what is the impact of recreational
fishing on fish populations?
There there's a lot of push pull there
and, and it really depends on the
species and it depends on the location.
Um, there was a, a paper that came
out in, I think it was the early two
thousands by a colleague John post
at, at, um, university of Calgary
called the invisible collapse.
Um, and that to me was also a very
pivotal paper, uh, in terms of
my evolution of as a scientist.
Um, they had a lot of these case
studies where, um, because we weren't
monitoring these recreational fisheries
to any great extent, we couldn't
actually see the fact that they were
declining, uh, because anglers are
so passionate about what they do.
Uh, participation rates are increasing
mm-hmm , you know, even if our, even
if our catch rate goes down a little
bit, you know, we've invested a lot
in our, in our rods and the trip, and
we're still gonna go out and fish and
you know, it, it might take five years
or six years to realize that, wow, you
know, like when I first started coming
to this lake, I was catching, you know,
10 lake trout in a week, and now I'm
catching two there's something going on.
Mm.
Um, and, and I think that, you know,
that, um, that time was pivotal in
terms of a, an awareness, an increase
in awareness that recreational fisheries
can have an impact, um, in, uh, and that
it's, it's also something though that
we don't necessarily need regulations.
To get a handle on when it comes to the
best practices for catch and release.
Right.
Um, and, and I, and, and I often also,
um, you know, when I, I often give
presentations at angling clubs and
there's, there's one that I remember.
So distinctly it was, uh, on the
coast of, um, uh, Connecticut and,
uh, it was at a surf casting club and
most, and, you know, I put up my big,
you know, PowerPoint presentation.
First slide is like best
practices for catch and release.
And I could see, and these
are all like meat fishers.
Right.
Right.
And I could see them all, as soon
as I put that up, I could see them
all kind of slump and be like, I'm
not gonna listen to this hippie.
Right.
Yeah.
Like I don't do that.
I, I, so I, I, I broke the ice right
away and I said, okay, I, I, so how
many people here, you know, you know, go
fishing for Stripe bass to catch, to keep.
And they all like put their hands up.
That's me.
And I said, great.
That's cool.
And then I said, okay, so, and then how
many people voluntarily practice catch and
release just from a conservation ethic.
And there's like a few people that
put their hands up and I said, cool.
So for those people that, um, that try to
harvest strip bass, it was a regulation.
So what happens when you
catch an undersized fish?
They're like, oh wow.
We, we put it back.
Mm-hmm I'm like, okay.
And so what, what do you hope
happens to that undersized fish?
Oh, I hope it like grows to be
a keeper and all that stuff.
I'm like, okay.
So one you practice
catch and release yes.
And two obvi obviously the, the
way that you handle that Stripe
path bass or whatever fish it
is, is gonna affect its fate.
Right.
And, and it, and it
doesn't take a regulation.
It takes subtle changes in
behavior and maybe just, uh,
more personal responsibility in
terms of making those changes.
And, and I think that goes back to
that, the, uh, the question you had
about this push pull between commercial
fisheries and, and recreational
fisheries, you know, there's a lot of
species that, that recreational angle.
Fish for that.
Aren't commercially fished.
Mm.
Right.
And so, you know, when you look
at the, the status of those
populations, no, you, yes.
There's other big impacts happening
there's climate change and there's
habitat and all these other things that
are affecting our fish populations.
But, you know, if, if you're focusing
on a species that, where there is no
commercial fishery, um, you know, then
those recreational anglers that are
interacting with those fish me, we gotta
start, you know, increasing our, operating
our game in terms of the, our looking
at our role in terms of taking care of
those, those, um, those fish populations.
So
as a scientist, how do you go about yep.
Measuring and looking at the
effects of, of recreational angling.
Now, I know you were, you were up in
the bulky a few years ago and, uh, yep.
A friend of mine, April Vokey.
I think, uh, you guys did a couple of
podcasts together on some of this and.
I, I heard some pretty cool stories as
well about this, but I I'd love to hear,
uh, the process of how you go about sure.
Actually gathering that research.
Yeah.
And, and, and actually that, that,
um, project we did on the bulky
river on, on steelhead is actually
a great example because, uh, the
process begins with the questions
and the questions for that project.
Didn't come for me like scientists.
We can, uh, yes, I'm an angler too.
and I could dream up all these great.
I could dream up all these great questions
to try to address that I think would
be beneficial to the fishery, but it
was actually, it, it was actually the
folks in the bulky river lodge, uh,
that approached me and also some folks
from different, different parts of the
community up there started to ask, um,
questions about if, if these steelhead
are that important and that Val valuable.
How can we potentially change our, um,
handling behaviors to increase the chances
that they're gonna swim away mm-hmm to,
to spawn, to be caught another day.
Um, and so I, I went up to
do a, uh, a scouting mission.
I, I went up and, and, um, first met
actually with the, the first nations
with the wetsuit and Wetton mm-hmm , uh,
because it was all on their land.
So it was great to have that,
um, connection and, and to
basically, um, get their permission
mm-hmm for the, for the study.
Um, and then I met with, uh, I,
they kept changing the acronym
for the BC fisheries forest.
Oh, they they're still changing it.
So confusing.
Yeah.
Flin RO or whatever
it's now . Yeah, I know.
Um, so I, I met with, so I went around and
I basically talked to people and, and, uh,
well, I, I didn't, I did less listening
or less talking and more listening.
Right.
I asked questions, um, to understand.
The importance of steelhead to that
community, to the larger community.
Um, and to start to, um, uh, think
about the, the, uh, dial into some
of the questions that were, um, that
were coming from the guides that
were coming from the community about,
you know, post-release mortality.
Uh, is it, is it better to, uh,
one of the questions that came
up, is it better to net a fish or
is it to better to, to tail grab?
Sure.
Um, in, in terms of the handling
mm-hmm , um, and then what happens
to those fish after you release them?
Mm-hmm and so, based on, based on that,
um, uh, that initial, um, trip, um, I was
able to then, you know, get a whole bunch
of different non-government organizations,
industry partners to sign on and say,
listen, we're we put, you know, had some
colleagues from Carleton university.
I collaborate a lot with, um, a
friend from there, uh, a great friend.
And, uh, we, we basically created a, a,
a team of scientists and, uh, government
agencies and, and non-government agencies,
um, and industry partners to, to do this,
to do this study and to actually fund it.
Um, right.
And, and because, and, and because
everybody had an investment in it, um,
they felt that the project was theirs.
You know, they, they
had a stake in the game.
Um, and then following that in terms
of our experimental design, uh, what
we did is we worked with anglers.
We, we, we put, luckily we had some
great graduate students that spent a
lot of time up on the bulky river, um,
basically following around people, fishing
for steelhead, um, and sounds rough.
We, uh, sounds rough.
And, uh, and you know, again, for
as much as we all like to fish for
as much as we'd like to catch all
these fish, it doesn't make sense.
We're, we're there as scientists, right?
And also that engagement with
the anglers is super important
because we can start to tell the
story mm-hmm, behind the science.
We can start to share our knowledge and
we can also get more questions from them.
Mm-hmm that can shape future studies.
And so, uh, we started to do, uh, work
where we looked at, um, blood physiology.
So a lot of, um, the science that we
do look at how this is not a steel.
Sure.
It's a tr um, you know, and, and so we,
we, um, we take some non-lethal blood
samples to look at how physiologically
stressed the fish is, um, to, uh,
to being angled, uh, and handle.
So you catch a
fish and you, yeah.
Uh, you stick a needle in and
you take some blood or yeah,
quick, quickly, exactly.
Quickly turn it over.
Uh, we use a, a, um, it's
a non-lethal blood sample.
Uh, we basically.
Put the needle into the Kole
podunkle we, we, uh, or the wrist.
Yep.
Sometimes you call it, uh, and,
uh, take a small blood sample.
And then we have meters, uh, in
the field where we can actually
look at, uh, blood lactate.
Right.
Um, and blood glucose, which are
kind of the main things that we
look at as indicators of that stress
response related to, to the fight.
So,
so that's, that's basically just sugar
and lactic acid are the, the big ones.
Yeah, yeah.
Ex exactly.
And so blood and blood lactate
is, um, a, uh, byproduct of
anaerobic muscle activities.
Your muscles are working and, and then,
uh, you get the buildup of blood lactate,
um, which is, uh, eventually a trigger for
sort of that muscle fatigue, that cramping
mm-hmm . Um, and then blood glucose is
that, that fight or flight reaction.
Right.
So our, what happens is.
Um, and it happens to fish.
It happens to us in a scary event.
Um, you know, your, your liver,
um, releases, uh, sugar, and
that you're on a sugar high.
Yeah.
And that fuels that it,
it fuels that fight.
And so, and we can look at those, um,
physiological parameters and tie that back
into the elements of the angling event.
And so, and, and what the anglers,
I think eventually realize is that
we're watching them really carefully.
We have a stopwatch.
We know when the fish has been hooked
up, we know how long it's fought for.
We know that we take a recording
of the water temperature.
We look at where it's hooked.
We look at how it's, if it's
bleeding or not, we are also
using at more and more, um, these
things called reflex impairments.
Um, and so, uh, as, as, as sort
of global metrics in terms of
how well the fish is doing, mm.
And some of the reflex impairments,
I'm not sure if you've noticed it.
Um, one, one big one is if, you
know, if you turn the fish upside
down, mm-hmm, . You know, how long
does it take to roll back over?
Right.
And that's sort of the coordination, the
coordination of all its its fin movements.
Okay.
Um, and another one is if, um, so it's
it, I'm not sure if you've noticed it,
but if you, if you take a fish that's
used to swimming like this and you kind
of put it on its side it's I tries to
track the horizon and, and tries to track.
And, and if, if that, uh, reflex is lost
that fish, we've seen shown some other
studies that that fish is like not in
good shape, but there's a whole series of
different reflexes that we measure that
are linked back to the blood physiology.
So this is like an
app guard cast for
fish.
It, yeah, it is.
It is.
There you go.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, and you know, and those, those
reflex impairments are neat because we
can tie them back into the physiology.
We can tie them into the Postle fate
when we track fish and I'll get to
that in a second, but then those
reflexes are important because.
You don't have to be a
rocket scientist to use them.
We can put those reflexes back out into
the hands of anglers and say, listen,
if you, you know, if you're, if you're
questioning whether your fish is ready
to go or not, mm-hmm , if you look for
reflexes, X, Y, and Z, and they're all
there, then, then the fish is ready to go.
Um, interesting.
And so it gives, it gives us clues
in terms of how we can adjust our
behavior, um, to ensure that that
fish, uh, when it does swim away
is, has the best chance of survival.
Um, and then, and then going back to
the bulk Lee river study, often what
we do for a subset of fish is we, uh,
will then put transmitters on them.
Okay.
Um, and, and so on the bulky river,
we used, um, radio telemetry.
Um, so a, a subset of fish had
radio transmitters put on them,
and then we were able to track
their, their short term positions.
Um, and then also track.
Long term, like into months after
they've been released and to see
how far they've gone, did they make
it up to their spawning grounds?
Uh, were there any, um, sort of acute
effects early on and then ultimately,
were there any, any longer term effects?
Um, so we have all these different
tools in the toolbox that we use for
our catch and release studies, whether
it's, you know, it's, um, steelhead,
uh, on the bulky river or bonefish in
The Bahamas or, um, you know, we've just
finished up a, um, going back to blood
lactate mm-hmm , uh, we just finished
up a great study, a very short study on,
um, on milk fish, uh, in the seashells.
Um, and because it, and, and, and that,
um, study was based on a question that
came from, um, some guides at the Alfons
fishing company, and also something that
shows up in the, in social media, like
every six months where it's like milk
fish can fight so long because they don't.
Blood lactate, which when we
went, that was the hypothesis.
That's what comes up in social media.
Yeah.
And then as biologists we're
like, I can't absolutely not.
They can't, there's no
vertebrate that does that.
Right.
Uh, unless they're like some alien
species , uh, like not, not, not invasive
alien, but like from another planet.
Right.
Um, and so, and we thought, okay, well
we have the tools, let's go test it.
Um, and so we use SA the same blood
physiology, um, uh, techniques, um, and
we were able to demonstrate that milk
fish do indeed P produce blood lactate.
Um sure.
But there's something, there's
something different in terms of how
they can recover, which I think leads
to some of the longer fight times.
So, um, it, it's nice cuz of these,
these tools are, are quite universal.
Um, you know, we've, we've, we can
use 'em on lots of different species.
And if we continue to look at how.
Um, different elements of the angling
event lead to different fats for fish.
Mm.
Then we can feed it back
into those best practices.
Mm-hmm and this is where really,
and this is where, you know, kind
of keep fish wet comes in, right.
Where, um, you know, as scientists,
we end up writing these scientific, I
wanted to see if I had a printed copier
in here, you know, we end up because
of our expectations of, of academia.
Mm.
You know, we, we publish in
scientific journals that are
usually the journal articles are
usually really long and boring.
No, no anglers is gonna
read 'em to be behind.
No.
And they're, and they tend
to be behind paywalls.
Oh, right.
Um, so it's not, they're not even,
they're not even free to access.
And so, you know, the, the, the,
the niche that, that keep fish wet
is filling and squarely filling
across, um, all different species is.
Basically taking that science because
we're all, you know, science scientists
as part of Keith fish wet the core.
And when we're translating that science
to make it more accessible and, and
to use the science to, um, basically
develop these science based principles
and tips that anglers can use to
essentially, you know, improve the
outcome for each fish, they, they try
to release or they plan to release.
So I'm, there's a number of things
you brought up and I'll, I'll see if I
can, uh, recall in somewhat in, in the
same order, but the one that really,
and feel free to feel free
to cut me off anytime too.
I know I can get, I can start to ramble.
So just like,
oh, you got a ton of information
that, that I, I get it.
I get it.
Um, so the, those telemetry devices
that you'll insert into the fish.
That's interesting for a couple of
reasons, like number one, uh, from your
perspective as a scientist, it it'll
show kind of, if they're staying alive,
if they're going out, if they're getting
eaten, if, uh, kind of where they're
moving and from an angler perspective,
you can probably get some real insight
into, um, maybe, uh, best places and best
way to start handling for these fish too.
yeah.
Well, that's a challenge too, that, um,
uh, sometimes we have to be careful about
where we, when we're publishing, right.
Uh, information in the scientific
literature about where these fish are
migrating and moving to, right there is,
there is sometimes in those scientific
publications and especially if we're,
if the questions that were, um, the
foundation for the research came from
from rights holders and stakeholders
and user groups, we don't wanna be
giving all this information away.
Um, so, you know, sometimes our,
at least the positions and stuff.
Right.
So that sometimes in our scientific
studies, you know, the bubbles that
we show in the figures and stuff
like that are a little bigger.
So you can't quite figure out where yeah.
Cause that's sort of
the, the best spot is the
fish work, the dilemma and the
dichotomy of, of what you're doing.
You're, you're trying to help the fish.
Absolutely.
But in the same breath, somebody
could look at that whole research.
And if you are very specific in what
you're doing, they could very specifically
target what they're looking for.
A
absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and especially if we're, if
you're the science is showing that,
you know, a certain size fish, bigger
fish are earlier in a run or, um, you
know, seasonality related to movement.
Um, yeah, we, we, uh, we definitely
acknowledge that and are we try
to be as careful as possible
mm-hmm because we don't want to.
We don't wanna alienate anglers we're
again, going back to this fact, like
the, most of the people that do the
catch and release science, like we
all start, we all grew up fishing.
Right.
And we, you know, we, we all ha
we all have pictures of us back
in the day, like with our bass out
and with, with our pike, with our
pike, with our fingers up the gills.
Yes.
That we're not eating
that we're putting back.
Right.
But we're like, The big one where
you've got your, your you're
holding your pike by the eyeballs.
Oh yeah.
and they're like, oh, I'm gonna let it go.
they're like, okay.
well,
you're talking about the different
groups that are involved here and
if bulky river lodge was involved
in bringing you in that's uh, yep.
Both really smart.
And I would say probably really brave.
Right.
Really smart, because they're trying
to get in front of any regulations that
come through by having solid science
behind it and really brave mm-hmm in
so far as the science might not match
up with their expectation or outcome
Yeah.
Well, and, and, you know, and I, I, I
actually, when we are having initial
conversations with, uh, whether it's
the folks from Buckley river lodge
or the same, the same scenarios
sort of happened with the Alfons
fishing company in, in the seashells.
You know, I, I, Fred I load
it and I say our site, our
science may show something that.
You may not like, or you may have to
adapt to, are you, are you okay with that?
Mm.
And, um, you know, I haven't, I
haven't come across a group yet.
Maybe I will one day that that said,
no, we're, we're not okay with that.
We don't want to do the science anymore
because you know, there, the, the business
model for the bulkier river lodge is
like, the steelhead need to be there.
Right.
Right.
The business Mo the business model
for Alfons fishing company is that
the, the giant Tali and the milk fish
and the bone fish need to be there.
Mm-hmm and, and for a long time.
Right.
And you know, when you start talking to
a lot of folks, uh, I start to hear a
sentiment more and more that, you know,
yes, the anglers are clients, but you
know, the fish are like clients too.
I've heard that.
Right.
Like the fish, right.
So like, I gotta take care of
that, that client in the water.
If, if I don't have fish to target,
then I'm not gonna have anglers
wanting to come and fish with me.
You know, and so that's, I think
that's where I've seen, um, a lot
of it, uh, more attention come
even outside the fly fishing world.
Yes.
A lot of the stuff that we've been
doing, um, or that we've been talking
about today is fly fishing focus.
But, you know, there's, we've
done a lot of work on species that
aren't targeted by fly anglers.
And, and I think because, uh, there's
a greater awareness these days.
I, I hope, I think there is about
the fate of, of the, the long
term fate of fish populations.
And I think there's a growing awareness
as well in that for as much as we,
we hope that there can be policy
changes and changes in regulations.
We've, we're realizing that that like,
to help protect SP stocks, whatever the
species is, you know, that's, that's
moving a big rock up a steep hill, right.
And, and sometimes you're
pushing a lot to change those
regulations and that could be.
Five years, 10 years, those regulations
may not ever change the way we
want them to because there's also
political lobby that comes in, right.
That could potentially influence the
changes and steer us away from science
based or evidence based, uh, knowledge
that could guide those regulations.
And I think that's where
more and more people are.
And, and this is again where, uh, key
fish wet comes from is that like, as
we're waiting for those policy changes
that can, and management changes and,
and regulation changes that can take
a long time, um, why not take better
care of each fish that you're handling.
Right.
Right.
And there's, there's no,
there's no downside, right?
Like if you're gonna, if you're gonna,
if you're gonna release a fish, whether
it's under, whether it's, you're targeting
to catch and keep, and whether it's
undersized or the wrong species, it
still plays a role in the ecosystem.
It still may grow and you might
catch it and harvest it later.
Or if you're practicing catch a release.
Every fish that you handle, that,
that you're gonna release, um,
you know, has value and, um, you
know, and, and that, uh, intrinsic
value to everybody that likes steel
fishing, but also economic value.
And, you know, if, if we ignore that
personal responsibility, maybe this is
me in a bit more of a soapbox, but if
we ignore that personal responsibility
and keep pointing fingers at, you know,
the, the regulators, the regulators gotta
change, but I don't have to change that.
We, we can kiss our
fisheries to goodbye, right.
Too often, people
co-opt all of their responsibilities
onto a third party like that.
And that's, it just seems
to be the trend as of late.
And you were saying earlier that it
doesn't necessarily need a regulation
change in order to be effective,
but more, a general adoption of
best practices is that where keep
fish wet is trying to make that.
a absolutely.
And, and the fact too that, you know, um,
a lot of the principles and tips that,
that have come out of the science, uh,
of catch and release, mm-hmm, really
hard, difficult things to enforce.
Like if a, a regulator's not gonna, yes.
Maybe like in, for Stripe bass circle
hooks, if you're fishing for bait,
that's easy to enforce for certain
species like Tarpin in Florida, um,
you know, above a certain size, you
can't take Tarpin outta the water
because it causes physical damage.
You know, those things are,
are relatively easy to enforce.
I'm not saying they were forced all the
time, but if, if, um, if it's really
hard to think about all the different
tips, like minimize air exposer, reduce
handling time, uh, you know, avoid
rough surfaces, those are the three
main principles that keep fish wet uses.
You know, it's really hard to think
about those as something that a
regulator, uh, as a, a state agency
or federal agency can put in regulat.
And then actually enforce, right?
Because there's so many people
out fishing, there's so many
people doing different things.
There's not enough conservation
agency or agents on the water
to, to actually do that.
So it's, it's kind of, it, it, it really
goes back to changing social norms, right.
And how we, as an angling community,
regardless of whether you're a fly angler
or a gear person, or you're harvesting
or practicing catchment release from
a, a conservation ethos, how we look
at our collective responsibility,
mm-hmm , um, for those, those fish
that we're gonna be releasing and
how we can make subtle changes in our
behavior, um, to, to basically say,
listen, we're doing the best we can.
It's not our we're, we're, we're
contributing to the solution.
Right.
Um, and, and we'll continue to have a
large voice when it comes to changing
regulations and we'll have a large
voice when it comes to other things
that are happening, whether it's
habitat or climate change, but at least.
We're providing, uh, we're helping those
fish populations be more resilient.
Mm-hmm by practicing science-based
best practices for catch and release.
So, um, so it's,
you're going out and you are
sampling different you're, you're
targeting specific types of fish
in particular areas and looking for
similar kind of outcomes on there.
Is there sort of like a blanket rule that
you can just sort of apply to them all?
Or like, did, is it very important
that you take a look at all of
these different species and, and,
uh, look at the subtle differences?
No, that's an awesome question.
Um, you know, I think there are,
uh, species specific differences.
Okay.
Um, and, and the science is getting there.
We're, we're working away at addressing
more and more species specific
differences, but if you distill
it all down, um, the, the, um, a
big rule of thumb for air exposure
is 10 seconds or less is best.
Okay.
Um, if you look at all the different, if
you look at all the different studies.
Uh, that have, uh, quantified the impacts
of air exposure on, uh, Postle behavior
and survival, 10 seconds or less is best.
The gold standard is you don't take
the fish outta the water at all, and
you can still get a wonderful shot.
You know, if you're, and, and
this is where, you know, it
involves creative photography.
You don't need a dome lens.
you can have your fish in the water.
Do you always have to have
your face in the picture?
Could you have your hands mm-hmm you
know, I think there's some, we, we
actually key fish wet provides a
lot of information about, you know,
creative ways to, to take a photo
when the fish is still submerged.
But if you do, if you, if you are going
to say you're, you're really, you've
caught that prize steelhead, and you
wanna take it out for, you know, a
couple sec to get that photo, um, let
the, let the, uh, the person with the
camera call the shots and it's like,
get, let the person get the camera ready.
It's 3, 2, 1 lift click, and it's in
the water and it's 10 seconds or less.
Um, And, and that's I think
an important guideline.
Yes.
There are some species that you can
leave out air exposed for longer.
Yes.
There are other species that,
um, are way more sensitive.
And, and the, the, the complexity
there though, is that some species
are more sensitive at certain
times a year than other times.
You, depending on water temperature,
depending on water flow.
And so if we, if we actually had some
sort of matrix of all these different
species and when they're more susceptible
to air exposure, and when they're
more susceptible to this, it'd be
way too hard for anglers to follow.
We, it would be hard
for us to follow mm-hmm
So it's, it's best from, from a
precautionary standpoint, um, in, in
terms of our, our, um, our way, the way
that we think about, uh, conservation
that, you know, 10 seconds or less
for air exposure, Um, is, is, is best.
Okay.
Um, and I think that is something we
can use, whether it's, um, you know,
whether it's steelhead or Stripe
bass or larva bass or whatever.
Um, the, the second, um, kind of, uh, main
principle is sort of avoid hard surfaces.
Okay.
Right.
Phish have, you know,
a slime coat on them.
They have scales, they have
slime on them to prevent disease.
Mm-hmm , they have slime on them
to make them more hydrodynamic.
Um, and you know, anytime that you're
dragging 'em across the rocks or you're
using, uh, you know, dry hands or, or a
glove that has like, that's super grippy,
mm-hmm, , you're taking that slime off.
And not only that can that, um, cause
disease and, um, infection later on.
But it also takes energy
to rebuild that slime.
Okay.
Right.
I always think about, think about a
fish as like, you know, their daily
energy budget is, you know, they're out
there fishing they're or feeding, you
know, and they're swimming upstream.
And anytime that we exercise them, anytime
we take them outta the water, anytime
that we, you know, remove some slime, they
have to use energy to rebuild that slime.
Right.
They have to produce energy to rebuild
the energetic resources, um, that,
that they use to fight against us.
So the more that we can, you know,
limit fight time, the more that we
can reduce our exposure, the more
that we can, um, uh, avoid, you know,
destroying some of their fins or right.
Wiping off the slime, you
know, that, that, that there's
better chances that they have.
Uh, to recoup those costs.
Once, once we release them,
can, can that slime get in their gills?
Cause I've seen some
people say, oh, it's okay.
If you just leave one Gill in
the water and you have one Gill
out and then it's just breathing.
I don't, I, I get that.
They cycle water through their gills in
some fashion and they can extract oxygen.
Yep.
Um, I, I guess it's a two part
question from a scientific perspective.
How do they breathe?
And is there any truth to that to
keeping the, uh, the one Gill in the
water?
okay.
So that's a different question
from the slide, but how, how
about I pose the question to you?
Travis?
Can I put you on the spot by means?
Can I put it the spot?
How do I, I, I, I do this.
I, when I, uh, I, uh, I gave a
presentation in Smithers, uh, and
I stood up on a ladder, um, and
uh, in a, in an angling shop and.
Okay.
I'm giving a talk about best
practice and for catching release.
I have a question for you.
How do fish breathe?
Aha.
So for, for, and all the egos are like,
whoa.
So for me, how do fish breathe?
I don't know.
Um, yeah, they suck water in
through their mouth and out through
their gills or in, through their
gills and out through their mouth.
And they somehow have, uh, little
things that can pick up the, uh,
uh, oxygen or extract it that's
that's the best from my perspective.
yeah.
But, but that's, and you're,
and you're partway there.
Okay.
Right.
So the, the, um, that the, the
little Mella, the, the Gill
filaments that are in there right.
Are super fine.
And there's a lot of blood.
Right.
It's like the alvioli in our lung.
Right, right.
There's a lot of blood close to
the surface where it allows for
that, that exchange of gases.
Okay.
But the dis the oxygen is
dissolved in the water.
Right.
We don't see.
Right.
Um, and so.
What happens is, and this is, this is
actually tied into, um, some of the
reflex impairments that we spoke about.
You know, one reflex that we look
for is the coordinated movement.
I can't do it well on my plastic
chart, but the coordinated movement
of when the fish's mouth is open, what
they do is they CLO they are Perla.
The Gill flaps they cover yet are closed.
Yeah, they're closed.
Okay.
And what happens is then they CLO close
their mouth and they open their percolate
and it pushes water in one direction
from the mouth through the gills.
And, and that directional that, uh,
that movement of water, directional
water movement through the mouth and
out the, and out the gills is important
because that works in opposite direction
of the blood flow in the gills.
Ah, and it's that, it's that
difference in flow rate that allows
that dissolved auction to come outta
solution, to get into the blood anding.
That that's, that's a
really important thing.
And the other.
Interesting thing about, and so going
to your point about having one guilt out
and you know, the other guilt in, right.
It's okay.
It's okay.
They're still, respiring a little
bit, but they're probably not aspiring
to the same extent, uh, that they
were when they were fully submerged.
And we can't forget, usually after you've
landed that fish, it has just fought its
metabolism is way up high because it's
got that blood glucose it's that sugar
high, that fight or flight response.
And just like, when we exercise,
we're, respiring more right.
And so what do we need, what do
we need to do when we respir more?
We more yeah.
Yeah.
Like, you know, we're we need, we we're,
respiring more we need that, you know?
Yeah.
Uh, because of that exercise
and so, and so do fish, right?
So that's the importance of keeping them
in the water and trying to keep that
those, that water flow over their gills.
We also can't forget, um, similar to.
Us in a way.
I mean, our lungs remove
carbon dioxide, right.
Um, and the same, same thing for, for
gills, but gills are also important
for things like salt excretion, the ion
excretion mm-hmm , the gills of fish
are, are, are a little bit more complex
than our lungs in terms of gas exchanges,
in terms of the, the, the services that
this, the, the Gill organs provide.
Right.
And so that's, you know, from an
auction standpoint, that's great.
It's also why we like, we, we kind
of cringe when we see pictures,
even when somebody's holding a nice
little tr like this and their fingers
are slipped under the Gill, under
the AUM, and they're in the gills.
Like those are super delicate organs
and, you know, keep your, keep your
fingers away from the gills, you know,
support the fish, you know, under the
belly and, and around the, the sort
of the, the co podunkle, the wrist.
Um, you know, we have to be very
protective of the gills for sure.
And, and that's where, um, you know,
that I think the, the 10 seconds or less
in terms of air exposure is important,
um, because the, uh, the, the fish are
recovering from that stressful event.
Mm-hmm, being angled and we often are
asked, you know, can I, can I do like,
like eight seconds and then two seconds
and then go back and like, like, no,
it's, it's cumulative because we also
can't forget that fish are wild animals.
Right.
Mm-hmm like, they don't, they
don't want to be held for as much
as we think we, they, they want us
to hold them and appreciate them.
They, they wanna get back
to doing what they're doing.
Mm-hmm , they're, you're
actually restraining that.
Um, and so, you know, the more that we,
um, and that's, you know, one of the
principles, the, the third principle
for the main principle for that key fish
wet uses is, is minimize handling time.
Okay.
And it's not, and ha handling time is
like, from the time it's not the time
that it's in your hands, it's the time
that you've scooped it up in your net.
Even if it's in a net, you're still
handling it, you've restrained it.
Right.
Um, and it's, it's in a place
where it doesn't want to be.
Um, and so the more that we can do
when we're, when you've got fish in
your net, or you have efficient hand.
You know, it, it goes back
to, uh, basic angler behavior.
And, and just thinking ahead and making
sure that you've got your PLIs ready.
Mm you've got, you know, you've, you're
prepared to, to, you know, turn the hook.
It's also why some of the tips that we
include is one like using barbless hooks.
Right.
You know, if, if you have, if you use
barbless hooks, you know, there's,
uh, there's some anglers that argue
like, oh, I'm gonna catch fewer fish.
Not really.
I mean, if you, if you fight a fish,
well, you're not gonna lose it.
Right.
Um, and, but what it does is
it allows you to, to minimize
handling time, it minimizes
physical, um, injury to the fish.
It also minimizes the chances of
you getting a hook with a Barb and
having to dig it outta your face.
Yeah.
Been there.
Yeah.
Been there.
Um, but, but it's, it's all those things
coupled together and thinking about
the principles and tips and about how
anglers can start to use those to, to.
Minimize air exposure, keep it
under 10 seconds, reduce handling,
uh, keep, keep it, keep your fish
away from rough surfaces and,
uh, and reduce handling time.
And collectively all those things will,
you know, the science is showing that it,
it increases the, the, uh, the likelihood
of that fish is gonna swim away, healthy.
Um, it's gonna, the fish is gonna go
back to, you know, contributing to the
population and that population will be
more resilient to all these other things
that are impacting fish populations.
Now, you said you had a question asked
of you about, uh, net or tail grab.
Did you come up, uh, did your
research so, uh, preferred method?
Yep.
It actually it's.
It was a, it was a great, um, question
and it was one that sh we, we showed that
it, uh, it took less time to actually
land the fish when you're using a net.
but the handling time tended to,
excuse me, tended to be longer.
Ah, um, hang on.
I gotta get a sip.
Yeah.
So you can think about it.
You get, you get your fish in the
net, um, and you feel that you have a
chance to pause, which you kind of do.
Um, and that increases the
restraint time of that fish.
Mm-hmm and often too, what happens is
like, even if you're using a barbless
hook, sometimes the hook falls out.
Or sometimes if you're using a,
a, a fly with a trailing hook, it
gets caught in the net as well.
So you're trying to navigate all the net
stuff mm-hmm um, and what that results
in is that fish being restrained longer.
Right?
So, um, so, and then the, the opposite of
that was true for the tail grab that it
took a little bit longer to land the fish.
But it was it the re the, the handling
time was so much less where you could, you
know, grab onto the, to the wrist of the,
the, the tail or the co put uncle mm-hmm
. If the, if it was a barbless hook, you
run your hand down the line, you turn the
hook and you're already in the position.
If, you know, if you want that picture
or whatever, and then you let it go.
Um, and, and the outcome though, that
even though there were differences
in, um, handling time, um, the
outcome, the scientific outcome showed
there was, there was no difference.
Interesting.
Um, one had a, one had a little bit
more of a physiological response
of being, being held longer.
Um, but the overall outcome related to
the fish that we put transmitters in,
it, it really didn't make a difference.
Um, and we, and we kind of like that,
I guess, as an outcome, uh, it's
important to reflect on it because.
You know, there's some situations where
it might be impossible to use a net.
Mm.
Or there might be some situations
where it's, it's hard to, to tail grab
a big fish and you have to use a net
mm-hmm . And, and so when we, when key
fish wet, you know, conveys all these
principles and tips, we know that there
are nuances, uh, depending on the species,
depending on where you're fishing.
And we also recognize that it's an
evolution, it's a personal evolution.
That the one thing that we, um, we
really advocate for is constructive
feedback, positive feedback being,
you know, we, we, as an organization,
as, as group of scientists and, and
educators and everybody else involved,
like we don't wanna shame other people.
Sure.
Like, because we were,
we were all there once.
Mm.
Right.
Like we were all, you know, and,
and I think that if we can use, keep
fish wet as a vehicle to provide a,
a consistent and persistent message.
Related to these best practices
for catch and release across all
fisheries, um, that, uh, then, and
we do it in a constructive way.
Then more people are going to adopt those
best practices and that's gonna change the
social norm when it comes to the images
that are posted on a social media, when
it comes to, you know, the, the images we
see in film tours and all sorts of stuff
that, you know, that, and, and also the
images that we see on the catalogs of
some of the gear manufacturers, right?
Like it's, it's a, there's there's
this, this change that's needed.
It doesn't necessarily
re require regulations.
Mm-hmm , but it, it requires all
of us recognizing that we play a
role in the fate of these fish.
Every time we handle one and
understanding that subtle changes in
our behavior can make a big difference.
And if we all do it, then,
you know, we're, we're, we're
contributing to the, to the greater
good.
I, I have a, um, I, I would think that
as a researcher and being very passionate
about keep fish wet and what it does
and, and trying to affect a social
change, you'll probably find you end up
in a bit of an echo chamber where the
people around you, you start naturally
surrounding yourself with other people
who are, are like-minded like values.
Do you have a way of being able to
measure whether they keep fish wet
movement is being adopted and be
able to kind of tweak it or not?
Cause that that's a,
that's a, uh, an interest.
That's a question from a, um,
maybe a selfish point of view.
Is there a scientific way to see what
effect that you're making through
your efforts, either through social
media or through your website, because
that, that could also be applied
to so many other things, whether
it be business or, or anything.
Right.
Absolutely.
And, and luckily, um, we, uh,
through my connection at UMass.
There was a graduate student here who I
managed to, uh, convince to do some work.
She's a social scientist
and a really good one.
Okay.
Um, that looks at social signaling.
And, um, and how, um, differences in
terms of like the injunctive norms
that, that, that, that are, uh, that
are portrayed in the community, how
that ultimately is, is influenced by
messaging or influences messaging.
Ah, and, and, uh, she is now on the board.
She is now on the board of directors
for keep fish wet and, uh, very cool.
We, uh, we were actually, um, have done
some studies, um, that actually are still,
uh, in review, uh, where we're looking
at, how anglers perceive different images
in social media and how they're, how
they're linked to the best practices.
And if there's a disconnect and
how we can ultimately change,
whether it's the, the messaging or
the images or the, the, the tone.
To allow that message to be more
inviting, um, to also see, are
there ways that we can accelerate
change just by, um, the, the way
that we communicate the information.
Um, and so that the one thing
that I can say, and this, this
happened, uh, a little bit before the
transition, uh, from keep 'em wet,
which was a kind of a nebulous sure.
Wasn't really a thing.
It was kind of a movement to keep fish
wet, which was a formal not-for-profit,
um, that, uh, we had some students
in my lab actually do a survey that
looked at the, the number of times.
That the hashtag keep
and wet was being used.
Mm.
And, and how it aligned to images.
And, you know, since we started the
movement and especially as keep fish wet,
started to become more established as
a, not for profit and as a, as, as the
entity for these best practices that,
that use of the hashtag has gone up.
And there's more alignment in
when somebody uses the hashtag,
it's not a fish that's bleeding
and all that sort of stuff.
There's yes.
We still see that, but we're starting
to see more alignment between.
Um, the, the use of the hashtag and,
um, and also how our information is
being shared by other organizations.
Mm.
Um, and, and how we're partnering.
So I think we're getting to the point,
um, where I think we're, we've, we've
thought of a few other additional
studies to try to address that question.
Yeah.
But, um, that's something that,
that's something that we will,
we'll continue to explore because
it is a changing landscape, um,
that depending on what happens.
Um, so there's a campaign, uh, that
keep fish wet did last year, uh,
that started it, or they started a
campaign called no fish, dry July.
Okay.
Um, and it, uh, the Genesis behind
that was a fact that man, like July,
August, that's when all these big
heat waves were happening out west.
Uh it's when there were
super huge droughts.
And, you know, fish are ecto thes.
And so their, you know, their body
temperature is related to their mm-hmm
to the environmental temperature.
And then also what happens
is water, temperature goes
up, their metabolism goes up.
Mm.
So if their metabolism's going through
the roof, and then we fish them, you know,
that there's a greater likelihood of,
of fish dying because of being caught.
Right.
Um, at high water temperatures.
So we, we, um, this campaign was started
to basically change social norms and
say, and, and, and change the narrative.
And like, we know this is a factor, you
know, from a social media perspective,
let's show us pictures in July that
don't have to do with the fish, show us
pictures in July about the environment
or your fishing buddy, or something
about that, that captures that the
essence of why you go fishing apart
from the, getting the hero shot and
having to take the picture and, and
hand gripping grin, and that, and that.
The gripper green and, and that took
off, we had, we had such great engagement
tied to no fish, dry July, um, and just
as a hint, that will be happening again.
um, and, and, and it'll
actually be bigger and greater.
And, um, and I think that, that, um,
you know, I, I think there's more
and more evidence that, um, many more
organizations and clubs and, um, different
groups and, and industry partners are
coming to us to, um, to ask advice
and to partner, to, to, to basically,
um, have to build that community,
the broader community that that does.
It's not just the anglers, it's
everybody that's involved in the
angling industry that that needs
to, um, you know, basically, um,
recognize that collectively we can
be agents of change as an individual.
You can be an agent of change positive.
But then collectively, uh, if we all
start following these same patterns that
we can have a, a much greater effect on
the future of our recreational fisheries.
That is amazing.
And I, and I really love the empowerment
of the individual, cuz so many people
think that you need a government
organization or an NGO or some group
just to that they can, they can,
co-opt all of the responsibilities
to, and that's not how it works.
It just, that's a, a suck for money
and you, at some point you'll be
looking at the easy answer and the
easy answer is just shut it all down.
Yeah.
And, and it's, and it's, and it's,
it's not one or the other, right?
Like we need both.
Right.
It's, it's all part of the puzzle.
Um, and sort of the top down, uh,
you know, um, policy change, approach
management change, that's all needed,
but that's not, that's not gonna save it.
All right.
There has to be the grassroots.
There has to be the
individual responsibilities.
There has to be, um, that connection
with the fish and the passion and, and
that, you know, and we need to look
at, look at ourselves in the mirror
a little bit more and be like, yep.
I, I know that if I handle a fish,
you know, outta the water for too
long, or if I'm jamming my fish
up, the gills that, you know, what
science is showing, what key fish wet
is demonstrating is that's not good.
Um, that a behavioral change is not
gonna cost me any more money, but
guess what, I'm gonna be part of the
solution instead of part of the problem.
And, and we also start in and more
broadly, we're also starting to
see, and this is just an anecdote.
I think more and more anglers that
have got, that have really sort of,
um, wrapped around, wrapped their
arms around these ideas about best
practices for catch and release.
And their personal responsibility
are also becoming more receptive
of their responsibility for like
habitat loss mm-hmm and recycling
and, and their, and their role
in climate change and their role.
And so it's kind of like a gateway,
not a drug, but it's a gateway
into the minds of anglers and, and,
um, that, you know, their personal
action does influence things right.
Both negatively and positively.
Sure.
And, and if we, if we, if we so
cherish our recreational fisheries
and we so cherish the watersheds
that they're in, um, and you know,
both for our wellbeing and for, you
know, the economy and other things.
Then, you know, then we needs to start
with individual actions, um, with
those fish that we're encountering.
Every time you go fishing, it also
still means you have to, you know,
be an activist and an advocate.
You know, when you see something
that's wrong in, and, or you're looking
for change in, uh, policy, you get
out and vote and you get out and,
um, you know, voice your concerns,
but you don't just leave it there.
You, you can't forget that
there's personal responsibility
that's, that's also needed.
Mm.
Um, and so it's, it's, uh, I think
that, and, and I out of, I don't know,
and, and maybe somebody convince,
can convince me otherwise, but I
think, um, with, with recreational
fisheries, it's the one activity where
we engage with nature, where we have
that, um, really acute responsibility
with those fish that we're handling.
Where we can like choose to catch it
and release it or choose to catch it
and keep it if it's of a harvestable
species and then based on our behavior,
we can affect the outcome of that fish.
Mm.
When you release it, you know, if, think
about bird watching or hiking, you know,
like there's, there's different ways.
We engage with nature
where we're maybe not.
And, and if you go hunting, you're hunting
usually to like harvest the animal.
Right.
You know, unless, unless, unless
you, you know, there's some
other I've seen, there's also
people anyway, we won't get that.
But, um, you know, but it's the,
the Mo the motivations behind
recreational angling are pretty diverse.
Mm-hmm . Um, but they, but they do involve
the fact that there has to be fish in
the water, otherwise the sport goes away.
Um, and, and there is that connection
back to personal responsibility and,
and that's where key fish wet comes in.
And, and I think that's also where
key fish wet, uh, based on the
traction that we've been getting.
Throughout the broader
global angling community.
Mm-hmm , um, that, uh, we are we're
recognizing and other people are
recognizing that, um, that the scientific
based best practices are the best ones,
because you know, there's been a lot
of investment and, and that this, the
science is, is done objectively mm-hmm
, um, and feeds back into, uh, the best
practices that sh that a hundred percent
demonstrate that where we know with some
confidence that it has a positive effect,
if you do, this has a positive effect.
Mm-hmm um, and, and I think that
that's where, um, you know, there's,
there's lots of other groups and lots
of other government agencies, NGOs
that are putting out best practices.
But if you look at the Genesis
behind those best practices,
they're anecdotes, they're maybe not
based on science they're, they're,
they're developed in other ways.
Mm-hmm it doesn't mean they're all wrong.
But it, I, I think what I've experienced
over the last 20 years is that what
the angling community really needs
is that consistent and persistent
message mm-hmm um, because it makes
it easier to remember the information.
It makes it easier to remember
the principles and tips.
It makes it easier when you're
going from trout to, to bass, to
Stripe bass, to whatever mm-hmm . If
the, if the principles are all
sort of unified, it just makes
it easier to employ them as ANR.
Um, and you're not, and you're not getting
mixed messages from different groups.
And, and I think that's where, uh, key
fish wet is, is, is really accelerated
and, and being that, that, uh, filling
that niche of being that, providing
that consistent and persistent
message, um, for the angling community.
So.
What about detractors out there?
Are there any people out there that take
a look at the work that keep fish wet?
Is I, I was in my research in here.
There was a, um, Idaho, I think it was,
there was a group that put something
out that had some contrary opinions, but
that was an older sort of, uh, uh, paper.
Has that one been, uh, refuted
or should we talk about
that one?
Well, so, so no, that's fine.
And, and we don't, you know, I, I don't
wanna knock the science, um, and you
know, that, that, that paper made it
through peer review and, and that's,
you know, that's part of the process.
Um, but I, and, and there is,
there are some studies that show
for certain species, it isn't
as much of an impact, right.
But there's so many different species
that we target and there's so many
different environmental variables that
are to be taken into consideration.
Right.
And so, you know, and, and if you,
you know, there's been probably now,
if you do the math, there's probably
maybe close to 500 studies that
have been done on catch and release.
Right.
If one shows that it's not an impact,
are you gonna trust the one or the 499?
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
So, and that's, I think that's the
approach that I take like that, you
know, there's so we just did a, um,
a study on, uh, giant Travali yep.
In the sea shells.
And we use some cool, uh,
accelerometer, loggers.
They're kind of like the
Fitbits on your, that you wear.
You'll look at tail frequencies.
It's a really cool technology.
And that science showed that even 30
seconds of air exposure, uh, didn't
really impact the poster lease fate
of GTS and the fly fishing fishery.
And Alfons, it doesn't mean.
Um, we should still go to that 30 seconds
because, um, you know, if you're fishing
in another location where there may be
more predators, um, mm-hmm, , it just
showed that, that in that context,
um, zero seconds of air exposure, 10
seconds of air exposure, and 30 seconds
of air exposure, all kind of showed
the same stuff and, and it demonstrated
that GTS are pretty resilient.
Um, and, and there's been some other
studies that are, have been done
on, uh, fish outta the same family
permit, um, are also, um, from,
from a physiological standpoint, um,
they're, they're pretty hearty okay.
Of, of a species when it comes
to being caught and handled.
But with permit, if you're catching
'em out of a spawning aggregation and
that spawning aggregation has attracted
a whole bunch of sharks, right.
It doesn't really, it doesn't really
matter if that fish is like, Super
resilient to being caught and handled.
It's gotta now swim through this
gauntlet of, of predators, right?
So the context is important.
And I think that's also where a lot of,
um, a lot of the science is going where
thinking about the context dependent,
um, lyses like, you know, looking
at the same species during low water
times of year, low flow, high water
temperature, high flow, cold temperatures,
you know, trying to find those
species specific, um, best practices.
So we can, we can hone things a
little bit more beyond, beyond just
the general principles and tips.
Um, and we're getting there.
So like, um, keep fish wet, um,
based on the Stripe bass fishery,
uh, put out a separate campaign
related to best practices.
For, um, for strip bass, um, because
there has been some science and so there's
a, there's a species specific campaign.
It's still, we still fall back on
the, the general principles and tips,
but there's some additional things
we need to consider when it comes to
Stripe bass and we're getting there for
more and more, more and more species.
Um, but you, I'm glad you're
brought up that study.
And, and yes, we also do like when,
when we, um, I, so , it's maybe too
much information , I'm BA I I'm BA
I'm basically the, uh, unpaid social
media intern for keep fish wet.
Uh, and, uh, but it's fun.
Yeah.
And, um, but last year when we, when
we launched, uh, no fish, dry July, um,
there was a lot of interesting comments.
They're like, yeah, I
don't keep my fish dry.
I put it on the grill.
Sure.
You know, just like, okay,
that's then you're not, you
don't have you read the post?
No.
You just looked at no fish, dry
July, and there's always, there's,
there's always going to be.
Um, people that I think, um, don't
quite relate with the, the fact
that even you hear for catching
fish and you're harvesting fish, if
there's a regulation mm-hmm , um,
that you're gonna be releasing fish.
Um, there's, there's always a lot
of people that I find that like to
point fingers at other people sure.
As being the problem.
Um, but I think collectively over
time, if there's this evolution
of enough of us, uh, that, you
know, the social norms will change.
And, and, and as we're fighting the
big fights about policy change and
other things that at least we know
that, uh, we can feel good about each
individual angler taking care of fish,
um, that, uh, that they plan to release.
Um, and, and I think, and I
think that makes it, I, I.
The approach that keep fish wet takes
is much more accessible, um, than if
it were, that is the same information
coming from a government agency.
Because, you know, for instance, cuz a
government agency is, is also the agency.
You pay your fish license fee to that.
That could also give you a, a
ticket or take your stuff away.
Um, and so, you know, keeping it out as
a, as a non-government organization is a
separate entity that, that, and we've had
other government agencies or government
agencies come to us for guidance in terms
of best practices to partner with us.
We've had other groups
coming to us more and more.
Um, and that's where like we're actually,
we have, we have, we have more people
coming to us than we can keep up or
we're trying to keep up, which is great.
I mean, to me, that's a reflection
that it's working key fish wet
is, is working it's on the mark.
Um, and you know, you know, during no
fish, dry July trout unlimited picked
it up and said, this is awesome.
They wrote pieces about no fish, dry July,
um, you know, fly fishing international.
Like, yeah, there's all these bigger
groups that are recognizing that what keep
fish wet is doing has incredible value.
And, uh, and actually the, the
engagement, um, and the opportunities
for engagement are increasing.
And that the, the, the distance between
suggesting behavioral change and making
behavioral change is really short.
Right.
You just need that sort of recognition
by the individual, but like, wow, I've,
I, these scientists have shown that,
you know, by minimizing air exposure and
keeping less than 10 seconds, I'm gonna
be doing a better part for each fish.
I'm gonna go ahead and do it.
And if you, and you embody
that, um, then you know, that.
You have confidence in that
behavioral change and you're
more likely going to do it.
Totally.
Um, if we're able to demonstrate that.
So, um, I think collectively,
there's a, I think, I think there's
a strong future for keeping awesome.
I, I've got a couple easy questions.
Uh, so you go into the fishing store.
Sure.
And they've got a couple
different types of nets.
One's gonna be your fabric
net, and one's gonna be kind of
your rubbery net, uh, rubber.
Net's gonna cost you more
money than the fabric net.
And people look at this and
say, do I spend the more money?
Does it make a big difference?
What should I do?
What's what's your perspective?
AB luckily we've done some, there's
been some science done on different
nets and, uh, the, the flat rubberized
net makes a huge difference.
Yeah.
Um, you know, the, the, uh, the
Walmart Kmart Canadian tire special,
uh, that, uh, is the noded nylon.
You know, the, that, that results
in, uh, more fin frying, it can
actually get behind the gills.
Mm-hmm it can do Gill damage.
Um, it is much more impactful
than, uh, a flat rubberized net.
Um, that is relatively
slick when it gets wet.
Um, there's less opportunities for,
uh, fins to get through the holes.
Mm-hmm , um, there's, there's enough
science, if you can, if you can afford
it, uh, or you save up for it, um,
then, um, you know, a, a rubberized net
is, uh, is, uh, will result in fewer
injuries here.
Here's another easier one.
Uh, let's say for, let's say for steel
ed, what, uh, I'm looking at, um,
you were talking about physiological
responses that the fish will have,
and you named a couple of 'em like
through the eyes tracking their horizon.
And are you able to yeah, yeah, kinda give
a, uh, a quick point form of the, uh, of
a few of these physiological responses
that people should be looking for.
the reflex improvement reflex.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know?
Uh, yeah.
So the reflex impairments, um,
the, the, uh, the big one for us
that I think is the easiest is,
uh, at the end, when you're ready.
If, if you say you've got it, um,
close to you, and if, if you can
start to roll it and it rolls over
on its own, that writing reflex.
Yeah.
Relatively quickly.
It's, it's, that's, it's it's, it's
got enough coordinated movement.
It's got enough of its faculties
to recognize that it's upside down
and it can do that coordinated
movement to bring itself back.
Okay.
Um, the other one is that
they, um, that we call it the
head complex and that's that?
Oops.
Um, that's the, the coordinated
movement between the, the, the
mouth moving and the gills movement.
Okay.
Right.
So that, that, so if, if the mouth is
going like this and you have coordinated
movement with the gills, that means
it's trying to move more water over
its gills mouth closed, gills over.
. Yeah.
And, and in sort of that combination,
that, that sequence, right.
Um, ideally with the steelhead, right.
You're in moving water, um, to help
with that recovery, you wanna, you know,
put the, put the head of the fish into
the water flow mm-hmm um, so that you
have the water going in the mouth and
out the gills, not the other way around
Um, sure.
And, um, so we've got, um, the other
one that the, uh, so we've got, um,
the, oh, the, the other ones that we
do, and it really depends on the species
is, uh, one called, um, uh, body flex.
So if you start to take your weight,
so, so you have the fish in the
water and you start to, um, uh, use
your arms to reduce the weight, the
gravity that the fish is feeling.
Yeah.
Does it flex its body or
is it just like, right?
Is it just lift.
So body flex is, is one that,
that, um, anglers can also use.
Um, and then also it, depending.
So pretend you have your fish, uh,
and it is kind of harder with, with,
uh, steelhead, because you also
don't want 'em to start to run again.
Sure.
But this, we, we do this for smaller
species where you can actually, if you
start to like pinch their tail a little
bit, are they trying to kick away?
Right.
If, if you start pinching their
tail and, and you have that, that
tail reflex, um, so we've got loss
of equilibrium or, or how quickly
it can take the regain equilibrium.
We've got the, the mouth and gills.
So the head complex, um, we've got
body flex, we've got tail grab.
And then the other one I talked about
is that the, um, the eye rolling
mm-hmm , um, that one we've shown in,
in some studies that if that eye does
not roll and it does, and there's some
species where the eye will never roll.
Sure.
Depends on the species.
Um, but, and I, I had a great photo
come in today from the person that
does social media for fulling mill.
Okay.
And, uh, um, he's actual also a guide
in, uh, in New Hampshire and he sent
a picture of this fish and, and, and
it's a close up, but you can see that
the fish, the fish is on an angle,
but it's eye is tracking the horizon.
So you know, that, that fish, that, that
fish's brain and it's physiologically,
it's like dialed in and it's like,
I don't wanna be rolled over.
I wanna go back that way.
Mm-hmm, , um, you know, that's
another really good indicator and,
and it's, you know, and some of these
indicators, um, depending on water
temperature, depending on the size
of the fish, they might be harder
to, to measure or harder to look at.
But I think anglers need to do the
best they can with some of these,
some of these reflex impairments,
because it'll tell you if the fish
is ready to go, or if it's not.
So say you say you like, you know,
you, you roll your, we, we hear.
We see so many examples of, um, the,
uh, people that are holding on for fish
for a long time and thinking I'm gonna
hold onto for another five minutes,
because the more I hold it, the better
it gets and the fish is like this
and are like, I'm trying to hold it.
I'm gonna do this fish better
by holding on this drives.
So my, my, my wife, Sasha is the
executive director for key fish wet.
Yeah.
And, um, and, and that, that's
one thing that, uh, is, is
a really pet peeve of hers.
And it actually is pet peeve of mine, but
more hers in, in that, like this whole
idea, like holding onto a fish longer
is going to be better for that fish.
It's not always the case.
If it's, if, if it's got, you know, good
a curricular movement, um, if you go like
this and in two seconds, it's like this,
you know, like, get it, get it on its way.
Sure.
As long as there's no predators
around, you're not in the salt,
like do yourself, do the fish
a favor and get its on its way.
It's way it doesn't need
to be recovered more.
Um, certain species, like, I mean, you
know, bill fish, Tarpon, big things
that are like fight to exhaustion.
Sometimes they need more recovery mm-hmm
. Um, but this is also when, like, if
you're fishing with a guide or you're on
a chat with, uh, a chat group on social
media, Facebook, or whatever, you know,
try to, before you even go fishing for
a new species, look at the different
techniques that people are using to
recover fish, re compare those, to compare
those, to the best practices, that key
fish wet conveys, and be like, okay,
now I know for when I'm gonna go off for
sale fish, you know, it's actually in
the Southern part of the United States,
it's illegal to take 'em outta the water.
Um, yeah, but you know, if, if that fish
needs to be recovered longer, you know,
I'm gonna probably be working with that
boat captain to basically be keeping
that fish's head into the current.
We're gonna run the boat until
it's, you know, got its reflexes
and then we can let it go.
What do you see as the
future for catch and release?
Yeah, I think, I think the future in
the short term is that, um, I think, and
this seems kind of, uh, maybe a little
bit, um, I, I don't, it's not jaded.
I, and, and it's not, I, I think
that there's based on the uptake
and the ease of uptake for these
scientifically generated best
practices for catch and release.
You know, I think there's a strong future
for keep fish wet in terms of being
that persistent and consistent message
across all these different fisheries.
I think that there's a
greater growing awareness.
That individual responsibility
is important, especially with
all these other impacts that are
happening to fish populations.
Mm.
I keep going back to the big
elephant in the room, climate change.
Sure.
You know, last year, last year
it was droughts this year.
We've got massive floods that
are closing out Yellowstone.
Uh, right.
And I think those floods are also
hitting, um, Alberta, Saskatchewan, right?
Like, um, mm-hmm, that, uh, you know,
that, that understand given that our
watersheds and our global ecosystem
are under all these other pressures.
Um, I think that more and more people are
asking, you know, how can I play a role?
How can I, uh, help be a, be
a, um, uh, an agent of change.
And, and I think that that's, and, and
I'd also see that more and more people
are maybe being, becoming a bit more
disheartened about like policy change,
the rate at which those changes happen,
taking down the dams in the snake river.
Mm.
Right.
We're fighting for that pebble mind.
Mm-hmm, , it's all important to fight for.
Right.
We're all important to do
that, but it takes time.
It takes a lot of time and a lot of.
And I think that more and more
groups and people within this sort
of com recreational fishing community
are recognizing the value of each
fish that are in their hands.
And that through those basic changes in
behavior that we can, we can actually,
um, have a great benefit on the future
of, of that individual fish and that
contributes to greater resiliency in
the face of all these other threats.
Um, so I, you know, and, and yes, there
are places where, um, you know, and,
and a concern that gets into this.
And again, this could be a
topic for even another podcast.
, um, when you get in sort of animal
welfare and do fish feel pain, we
haven't really touched on that.
Um, and, um, you know, I'm gonna
say, yes, I, I think that there.
Well, they, they, they, well,
again, another podcast, cuz
there's so much to go into that.
Um, but there's some places like in
Germany catching release is illegal.
Um, because they feel that there's, uh,
not law was put in place because, uh, it
was felt that if you're catching a fish,
um, you've caused enough distress in it
that it it's inhumane to put it back.
So you have to dispatch the fish.
Um, but when you, but I've, I've
had casual conversations with a lot
of people that fish in Germany and
they, they call it the ops factor
and they basically, they, they know
that the fish is better in the water.
They don't, they don't
wanna dispatch the fish.
So they dropped it as they're handling
the, oh, I dropped it and yeah.
You know, and um, and I've actually
heard some anecdotes from people
that, um, for, that were actually.
Caught for practicing catchment
release and they took it to court.
Don't just, don't don't anybody quote me.
I, I heard it from, I
heard it from somebody.
Yeah.
I read it on the internet, but that,
but even, yeah, but even, but even
the judge kind of threw it out.
And like, if you could argue that, that
the value of that fish is so much more
important in the water contributing to
a healthy ecosystem, you know, that,
and if you're using best practices for
catch and release and you're minimizing
stress on that fish, you know, then,
um, you know, maybe, you know, catch and
release does have an important place.
And, and, and I think it does.
And, and going full circle back to
like, you know, the, the, uh, the
conversation that I've at the beginning
of a presentation in, in Connecticut
here about like talking to the meat
fishers versus the people that practice
catch and release, we all do it.
Mm-hmm, , we all, we all do it, you know?
And, and I think we all do it.
And, and, um, and if, and if you're, if
you're practicing to catch to keep and.
You're not putting back an
undersized fish, that's what's
gonna get you in trouble.
Mm.
Um, that's where, you know, that's
why the laws are, are put in place
and the regulations are put in place.
Um, and I, I think what I'm also seeing
is that, you know, since, uh, keep
fish wet, rebranded, uh, or keep fish
as a no for profit, that I'm actually
seeing more and more, uh, angler groups
that are predominantly meat fishers.
Mm.
Um, basically starting to say that,
wow, we are playing a role and
these best practices are important.
And of course, you know, we're, we're
gonna be a part of the solution.
Um, it doesn't mean, and, and
we we're, we're quite open about
this on, on the, on the website.
Like we like to eat fish and
we harvest fish sometimes too.
Sure.
Like when it's legal to,
when it's legal to do so.
You know, we, we like to harvest fish.
We're not, we're not taking a, a, a
very super hard stand and say, you
gotta release everything you catch.
Otherwise you're a bad person, right?
It's like, wow.
If you know, it's, if for, for those
fish that you intend to release,
if you use these scientifically
based best practices, those fish
have a better chance of survival.
And we're just, and then you're part
of the solution to helping to keep
those populations healthy and safe.
So,
Andy, I am so glad you're able to
make the time to be on the Silvercore
Podcast and very thankful to pat
for making the recommendation and
point to me in your direction.
Thank you.
Oh, Travis.
No problem.
It was a great being here and,
uh, and I enjoyed passing on
what I know and, uh, yeah.
And I look forward to being back on.
Oh, you.