Welcome back to The Inspired
Living with Autoimmunity podcast.
I'm your host, Julie Michelson,
and today we're joined by Dr.
Spencer Zimmerman, founder of the
Idaho Brain and Body Institute, where
they help patients struggling with
neurological, psychological, and
body-based symptoms and conditions.
In today's episode, we're talking
about the often missed impact of
concussions and traumatic brain injuries
on autoimmune symptoms and the body.
Dr.
Zimmerman, explains how the gut-brain
connection is a two-way street, and
how including a functional neurology
evaluation in your health plan may just be
the missing piece you've been looking for.
Dr.
Zimmerman, welcome to the podcast.
Hi.
Thank you for having me.
I am so excited to discuss our
brain , and the connection between
our brain and autoimmunity.
It sounds strange to even think there
might not be a connection because you
know, it is an important part of the body.
Um, but I first would love to
know, you know, how you came.
Into kind of the, the functional medicine,
anti-aging world, um, because I think most
of us don't dream of that when we're kids.
So share a little bit
of your journey with us.
Yeah, so whenever I was in schooling,
I was this really big y person.
It's like, well, what?
What's happening?
What's going on?
And I found a group that did what's
considered functional neurology or
chiropractic neurology, and they were
treating traumatic brain injuries.
You know, people from all over
the world would be flying in.
And you, I'd see these
results that I'm like, what?
Like there's no way someone could
be recovering this fast despite
being to so many different provider.
And it morphed into a, well, that's
cool that you understand the brain,
but you understand how the brain can
impact other things, but how also
those things could sabotage the brain.
And unknowingly, as we're going
through the process, I knew my wife
had been dealing with headaches and
stuff, which had improved a lot.
You know, once she got off gluten
stopped, you know, with a lot of
the caffeine and the those drinks.
But, Eventually, you know, as
I'm coming home every day and I'm
just like, wow, this happened,
this happened, this happened.
She's like, that's not normal.
Um, and turns out she had suffered
concussions previously in car accidents
at around the age of 13, again in
high school and after graduation.
And not one of these was diagnosed.
And so a lot of the things that were
common to her that she had accepted
as her normal were actually a result
brain injuries that were never diagnosed
or treated, which we can jump into
as much as you want on, you know,
some of the symptoms she had that
others may be experiencing as well.
Absolutely.
Let's start there because I, I,
I do think there's this kind of
epidemic of undiagnosed brain injury.
Um, especially I'm in my fifties.
I grew up riding horses.
I was a competitive equestrian.
Um, and unless you lost consciousness,
Or were vomiting or had really extreme,
you know, post-injury symptoms.
Nobody used the word concussion.
Nobody used the word injury, you know,
it was like, oh, I bumped my head.
Um, so let, let's kind of talk
like what, what is the, your
criteria for how do we know?
I mean, it sounds kind of silly to say
how do we know if we have a head injury
that could have impacted our health, but
I, I do think some of this normal growing.
I have boys like, you know, it is things
that we just discount and don't think of
as possibly impacting our health later on.
Yeah, and this has really
broken down into two categories.
It's the first category.
What are something that happens
to you that starts impacting
you at that moment and, and you
kinda keep dealing with, right?
So let's say you get in a car accident,
you're told you have a whiplash injury,
but yet you have brain fog, you've got
headaches, problems with word finding.
You notice some mood changes.
Well, at that point in time it's probably
more than just a whiplash injury.
Um, cuz your more severe whiplash injuries
have a lot of brain-based issues with it.
So it's really more of a combo,
like a whiplash and concussion.
But then the other side is
what is up happening with the
resiliency within the body?
So it's the same thing
with autoimmune, right?
So the things that impact you early on
may not, you know, may really destroy
you five, 10 years down the road.
And you're like, but I could
previously tolerate that.
Why?
What's happening?
And it's because your body
will do everything it can to
keep you functioning in this.
At the expense of your future.
And so there's really two
ways of looking at it.
You know, with that being said, and
ultimately that's what it comes down
to, not only symptoms, but don't
become beholden to the symptoms.
Testing really tells you.
It's same thing in the autoimmune world.
It's like, Hey, you
show autoimmune markers.
I don't care if you don't have pain yet.
I know where you're
This is the time to, yeah.
Yeah.
Amazing, amazing.
And, and I kind of alluded to it, but
I, I wanna throw out there, because I
think this is another thing that, that
really wasn't ever considered back in
my day, in my younger years, um, is this
the kind of cumulative effect, right?
So you maybe, you know, hit your
head and don't notice anything.
But if you're active, or like
you said, car accidents, what?
It doesn't really matter.
Um, this kind of, we now know that, you
know, shocker, the brain is delicate.
Um, and so I, I think sometimes
people don't, can, you know,
they're looking for that big.
Thing, and maybe it was a couple
of, of little bumps I shared with
you before, before we hit record.
Um, in hindsight, I, I know I, I
definitely suffered concussions, you know,
getting tossed off of horses for years.
I, I laugh my, my.
Helmet.
For those of those of you listening
on audio, those air quotes around
helmet as a, as a young kid was
literally cardboard wrapped in velvet.
It was, you know, a hunt cap
is what we used, call it.
I grew up showing hunter
jumpers and I, I still have it.
It's because it's so ridiculous that
that's what we, you know, it looked
pretty, that's what we wore on our head.
So I know I had, uh, sustained
con concussions as a, as a kid.
Um, and then I got hit, didn't get thrown
off a horse, but got hit front of the
head January of 2020 and I, I couldn't
even work for three months at all.
And it's, it's definitely something
that I can still, much like my
RA symptoms have been gone for
years because I do the things.
To keep my inflammation down.
And now that's on the list
probably before I would ever feel
joint pain if I were inflamed.
I, I feel it in my brain right away.
And so I know that, that I
don't have that resiliency.
Um, and, and I do, uh, you know, a lot
to continually improve brain health
and, and protect, protect my brain.
But let's connect this.
The, again, the brain body connection,
which sounds so funny to say cuz you
know, it is so clearly connected.
But I wanted to cover, I'm gonna throw, I
just threw two questions at the same time.
One are kind of some of what are
those symptoms and, and what is
that testing a and is it all?
Head related, you know,
is it all technician?
Is it all, or, you know, what's this
connection with the rest of, how
come when I get inflamed, you know,
I can feel my brain and my joints.
What's, what's going on there?
Yeah, so whenever we look at the
symptoms that many people can have for
not only months, but years following
a concussion or a traumatic brain
injury, fatigue is up there at like 70%.
Headaches are also up there at
about, you know, 60 70% with A D
H D focused concentration issues.
Those are like the top three leading
ones, but there's a lot that persists
even at the 50% rate, depression, anxiety.
Sleep issues, brain fog, problems with
word finding, um, you know, memory.
And really this list can go on and on.
Now when you're looking at testing for
a concussion and a brain injury, your
concussions, your imaging is going to be
normal because you're looking at smaller
damage that's not picked up on routine
imaging that can be readily accessible.
So you have to look at
the functionality of the.
Because when we look at
concussions, there's really
three big things that happen.
Um, is one, the brain
doesn't connect them.
Little it should.
Two is the brain goes
through an energy crisis.
It doesn't produce and use energy the
same way, which is critical to know.
Cause a lot of people I get who come
in with old brain injuries, they don't
even know it's that they come in,
you know, thinking like, I swear it's
gotta be my thyroid, it's gotta be my
hormones, it's gotta be my adrenals.
And it's.
Your brain uses 25 to 30%
of the entire body's energy.
It is the most energy
demanding organ you have.
So if your brain isn't healthy
and efficient, chronic in
fatigue is an expectation, not
a, oh, it's something else.
And then lastly is your
brain gets inflamed.
So, which we'll talk more about how that
ties in, but going back to how your brain.
When we're looking at how the
brain's connecting, some of the
best ways to look at this is
through balance and eye movements.
So your eyes are really a window
into the health of your brain.
Now, this can be tracking a target, you
know, such as something left and right,
up and down, doing it at different speeds.
Also, shifting your eyes between
like, you know, my thumbs.
Same thing up and down.
Keeping your eyes still on a stationary.
Now on the best level possible,
this testing's gonna be done using
computerized technology such as
Video O or video Niag, mamography.
This is gonna provide really good
information and data, and the
majority of the people that do
this test, they do substantially
worse than they believe they would.
So I'll ask people, I'm like, oh, how?
How do you, how'd you do?
I think I did really well.
And then I show them their
recording and I'm like, Ooh.
Like that was really.
And this goes back to the compensation
that we talked about initially, is your
brain is going to compensate for you.
And so you will think you're
doing okay, but then ultimately
down the road you, you break.
Now with balance, one of the
things we know with concussions
and traumatic brain injuries is you
become much more visually dominant.
And so doing your balance and only
considering it with your eyes open
is going to be very misleading
and it's gonna prevent you from
really knowing where you stand.
So you should be doing both eyes open
and eyes closed on a firm surface,
but also on a perturb surface.
So there's like balanced pad, yoga pads,
you know, that are a couple inches.
Also one foot in front of the other.
Eyes open, eyes closed.
One-legged stance should
be able to do that.
Eyes closed for 15
seconds on a firm surface.
Now really walking through the whole
balance side, you can spot check yourself
at home and see how you're doing.
Odds are many of you, as you do this,
are gonna be shocked at how you do.
Um, disclaimer, please have
someone buy you, you know, because
You may be surprised at your balance
issues, and I am already terrified
and you know, I'll be doing this
as soon as we stop recording and I
already know it's gonna be horrible.
It's or definitely not gonna be what
I would hope because I, I, I know.
Oh no, I compensate.
So I'm looking forward to seeing
just how disastrous it is.
You know, which is another level because
one of the mistakes we make in the
functional medicine space is we do so
much with nutritional supplements and labs
that it's like, well, what are you doing
to tell your brain to connect better?
Right?
Like, you wouldn't take
supplements to get stronger.
You understand?
You'd have to work out those muscles.
But with the brain, we overcomplicate
the brain cuz we're like, oh, well the
brain's super complex, but how are these
eye movements gonna strengthen my brain?
It's like, well if, I mean, if
you wanna see all the pathways and
what happens for that to occur?
It's just like going to the
internet and being like, I mean,
I just typed some, hit some keys.
It's like, yeah, but everything that
happens on the back end is super complex
Right.
Doesn't mean you don't
go hit the keys though.
Correct, and, and let's not take
for granted how something that
seems simple can have such a
profound impact on the backend.
So really, you know, balance
and eye movements are two
the most important things.
Um, also there's some different
stuff with cognition and even on the
other side there's even brainwave
testing saying what's happening with
the balance of your brain waves?
Do you have a normal range
or have you shifted out of.
Excessive or deficiencies in a
variety of different brain wave.
Wow, you this, you've already given my
brain's going a million miles an hour.
Oh my God.
I, I'm a data geek too, and I, I do firmly
believe because I know we compensate.
Um, And thank goodness we can, you know,
we, we are until we can't, we compensate.
Um, but I, I also love data and
I love to uncover weaknesses
that can be strengthened.
I'm assuming you're not just diagnosing
people and telling them, so sorry,
you have an old brain injury.
I'm, I'm guessing that there are
some steps people can take and,
and that your patients improve.
Correct.
Yep.
It's, you know, it's about going back to
always break down into just two things.
Um, one, how's your brain connecting?
And two, what would sabotage
the ability to connect it
Ah.
so we can take those issues that
we find in the balance in the eye
movements, and we can use that to
create a customized plan for you.
Right?
Like, let's say you go to the gym
and you're working out and you're
like, oh, here's my weakness.
You know what areas you need to
bias to bring balance back into
your workout and your strength.
We can do the same thing with your
testing to say, Based upon this, we know
these parts of the brain control it.
Let's use this to do it.
But then on the other side,
what's gonna sabotage it?
It's like, where are your labs at?
You know, like what hap,
where's your thyroid?
Where's your hormones?
Do you have anemia?
You know, if you have autoimmunity,
what are your triggers for autoimmunity?
What happens when you get stressed?
What happens if you lose
an hour or two of sleep?
Because.
We know it's really important with your
immune system is that your lymphatics, you
know, remove all these waste your brain.
Its lymphatic system is
known as the lymphatic.
It's most active when you're
in the proper stages of sleep.
But a lot of people with
concussions and old brain
injuries, they don't sleep as well.
So your brain basically stays as this
toxic soup, which is going to prevent
it from shifting to a reparative.
So, you know, mentioned a little bit
earlier about inflammation in the brain.
You've got two sides with
your immune cells in the brain
that are known as microglia.
I really think about
this like a hurricane.
Okay?
I grew up where there's hurricanes.
So when there's a hurricane,
it does a lot of damage.
Now it leaves.
So the first priority is let's
clean up the debris, let's remove
everything, destroy everything.
That just cannot be.
That is what should happen first.
Now, in a healthy brain that only is
persisting for about two weeks, and
then you shift into a reparative state,
what are things that may have damaged
but that we don't have to throw away?
Let's fix it.
Let's repair it.
That is what should happen.
But if you're not sleeping well, if you've
got autoimmune flares happening, right?
If your gut health such complete
train wreck, then now all of a
sudden your brain is going to be more
likely to stand that inflammatory.
And the thing is, the worse your
inflammation, the worse your energy
crisis, the worse your connectivity.
But it's each and every
one impacts the other one.
So it's about figuring out with your
testing and a proper evaluation,
what lever should be pulled
when, which is really important.
Cuz I did mention gut health, um
right, because cuz everyone's really
big on the gut brain access and
it's like, But, but they're only
talking about it from like the
One direction, right.
versus the instant you have
a traumatic brain injury.
The instant you have a stroke,
you not only have a breach in
your blood-brain barrier, but you
have a leaky gut at that moment.
You no longer can fire down from
your brain through the vagus nerve
and control the lining of your gut.
I want you to repeat that and, and
because, and this is so important.
This is exactly what
happened to me actually.
You know, you can do all the work, right?
And understand your flares and
triggers and get your, your
systemic inflammation down.
Get to a point where I was,
where you're totally symptom free
for years, have a brain injury.
And yes, I was immediately dealing
with, um, and actually that's, that's
what obviously I knew this, I knew
was a significant brain injury.
But it was about two days later when
I realized, like this was unlike any
brain injury I've ever experienced.
I'm in trouble.
Like I am really in trouble here.
Um, and it did, and I You just thank you.
I did.
I had no idea how that worked.
But all of a sudden, you know, I, I had
to, uh, food sensitivities I had, and now
I get it, that, oh my gosh, if that injury
triggered leaky gut, that's where now I'm,
I'm not starting at ground zero, but I'm
have to readdress now all of those things.
And from gut healing,
I'm still working on it.
It's been over two years,
so, Um, oh, over three.
See my math skills I that I can't
believe it's been three years since 2020.
Um, but that is like, if listeners get
one takeaway, that's amazing to learn.
Um, just that impact of what
that brain injury can do.
Especially when we're talking to a
community that has this sensitive balance.
Right?
And we know the gut health is driving
all of that, so that's incredible.
Yeah, and it's, you know, if, if you're
doing gut-based protocols and you feel
you're like trapped, and that's like the
second you start pulling back, you start
getting all these symptoms, you're, you're
missing the other part of the picture.
Once again, the brain,
you know, the brain.
Tells the gut, Hey, I want you
to produce stomach acid under
the appropriate stomach acid.
You can now activate your
digestive enzymes, which is now
gonna let you break down food.
You also need your brain to signal the
gallbladder to let's excrete bile to
help further with digestion, right?
Let's help with motility.
Let's help maintain the intestinal lining.
You also get a lot of anti-inflammatory
output as the brain signals down, so, You
know, it's, once again, it's both routes.
Like yes, alterations in your gut can
ultimately wreak havoc on your brain.
But don't forget that alterations in
brain health from concussions, traumatic
brain injuries, strokes, whatever it
is, can really do a number to your.
So for people listening that are in that
space where they're, you know, very aware,
like you said, of the significance of
gut health and, and you know, perhaps
have done or doing protocols to heal gut.
And repair and kind of clo close that all
back up don't necessarily have the things
we were talking about before the bra.
I mean, they may, after this podcast
list do some of the, the balance and and
eye movement things and see, um, but if
they're not aware like, oh, I have this,
you know, maybe they are now, they're
like, Ooh, how about that time I hit
my head or got in that car accident and
didn't hit my head, but got whiplash.
But if they're not having
what they think of as brain
symptoms, how do they check in?
Or is it back to that same testing
you were talking about before?
Like how do they know if, if
brain is playing a part of
their autoimmune symptoms?
Yeah, you can go back to not
only the testing, but you can
say what makes you tired, right?
Like, 30 minutes of physical
activity or 30 minutes of being
on a computer or reading a book,
which one wears you out more?
If like, I know for a fact whenever I do
my eye movement testing, it's 30 minutes.
When people tell me they're
tired from that, I'm like, great.
I know for a fact I will not
fix your fatigue until we
get your brain to be more e.
Okay.
that's just a guaranteed thing.
The other thing which really
impacts our brain is stress, right?
So if you say, oh, when I get stressed, I
become foggy, or my concentration's off,
then we know your brain's being impacted
from it, and it's, you know, it's just
like we know in the gut realm, right?
Like you don't need digestive
issues to have a bad gut.
right?
So, Don't wait to have a lot of brain
issues to get your brain evaluated.
I mean, Alzheimer's is fastest,
one of the fastest growing things.
Parkinson's is the fastest growing
brain disease, and yet most people
are like, well, I mean, I was good.
I can't think of anything that
caused it, but yet I have it.
It's like, well, you understand it's
probably been in the works for at least
20 years, and so let's spot it early
on, even if you think you're okay.
Same thing in the rheumatoid
arthritis, any autoimmunity.
Let's spot it.
When you're in this silent phase where
we're sh, there's markers of your body
misbehaving, but you don't yet have
to feel it because your journey will
always be easier at that time point.
Then it will be when you're
further down the road.
I love that.
That is, that's amazing advice.
Um, so how do you, like,
what do people look for?
I, and maybe I'm wrong.
I, I think what you do is fascinating
and I also think you're pretty unique.
And so, um, How, how do people
find somebody that can even do the
assessments or find a practitioner that's
incorporating brain evaluation with
whole body, whole health evaluation?
Yeah, there's, there's not necessarily
a ton of people that do the full body
and so you may need to co-manage.
Right.
I'm one of those where it was through
the training I did, which is why I went
back even after chiropractic school
and got my nurse practitioner degree.
Cuz I really want to be able
to tie in all the loops for
the patients that I work with.
But you may need a great functional
provider on the functional medicine
side, but then you need a provider
that does functional neurology.
Because a lot of them, you know, some
of them have been trained through
the care institute and other places.
Um, now not everyone that does functional
neurology really focuses on like
traumatic brain injuries and concussions.
So you've, and you'll know when you
talk to them, you'll see stuff on their
website and you're like, Ooh, whoa.
They're using that, you know, video
Olo graph, the V N G, um, they're
using the balance platforms and
they're going to be able to go
from the rehab side of your brain.
And once again, when you marry the rehab
side of, you know, the, we call it the
functional neurology with functional
medicine, then you just do so much better
than if you only do one on its own.
Sure cuz it's a two-way street.
Mm-hmm.
That's incredible.
And.
Having the conversations I have and
doing the work that I do, and not ever
having had this conversation before,
I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't believe
these dots haven't been connected before.
Like it's, it makes so much that,
and obviously I have plenty of
experience living it and feeling it.
Um, and, and again, raising three kids
who were busy, athletic, you know,
Potentially danger seeking kind of humans.
It's brain health has been really
through the past, I would say 10 years
at least, forefront in our family.
Um, and I'm, I mentioned before,
before we hit record, I'm a Recode
2.0 Bren Protocol, Alzheimer's coach.
Um, so I, I like to think I'm pretty up
on brain health, but even I really hadn't.
Thought of it, you know, as a driver
of some of these other things.
I, I really only thought of it as like,
these are the symptoms for brain health.
Um, so you totally changed
my life so far today.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Um, and I know, I think I saw might
have been stalking you a little
bit and so I, I know you're not
just practicing locally, right.
You also do some virtual.
Is that accurate?
Yeah, so I'm mostly in Idaho.
I'm also able to work
with those in Florida.
But for those with the concussions
and traumatic brain injuries,
normally they are flying in to
see me from other states, um, now
And what are your thoughts on flying
post-concussion or brain injury?
I'm curious.
Um, if that's what you need to do to get
the proper care, it's worth the trade off.
But there are those with concussions
and traumatic drainages, when they do
it, there's gonna be this lag phase
of probably two to three days where
you feel like you just got recu.
But the same thing is true when people
go into higher elevation, right?
So where I'm at, we're like 2,400.
Elevation.
But if people go up and they're
like, oh, I went to 4,000.
I started getting more foggy.
I started getting a headache
and stuff like that.
I'm like, okay, we know oxygenation
is going to be a big player for you.
Interesting Fascinat.
It's just fascinating.
It's amazing.
So where does you know what is.
A step listeners can take.
I, you know, I warned you
before, I always ask for, for one
thing, anybody listening can do.
I already know some of the things I'm
gonna be doing, but I, I do tend to,
again, I like data and so I wanna know
all the things going on in my body.
But what do, what do you recommend?
Um, just even in general, it doesn't have
to be specific to identifying, you know,
a, a brain problem, but what's one step?
You mentioned earlier, and I,
I swear, I think listeners.
Must feel like I pay my guests to mention
gluten at some point in the podcast.
Um, because sometimes when we're having
conversations that people think is not
gonna come up, it still always comes up.
Um, so it could be anything in the
spectrum of, you know, protecting
overall health and, and emphasizing
this brain connection to way street.
Uh, what are, what does
a step listeners can.
Yeah.
And.
From more of an angle that you
probably haven't had before, you know?
Cause I understand where probably a
lot of people focus on the podcast is.
It really is just like,
check your balance.
Do one foot in front of the
other, eyes open, eyes closed.
Get a semi firm old
pillow, old couch cushion.
Do that, do it also
with your feet together.
Eyes open, eyes closed,
and see how you do.
And you know, if you're
like, oh wow, I was moving a.
You may want to get an evaluation
cuz there's a lot of research out
there on balance and cognitive health
Hmm.
we do preventative stuff, right?
It's like, oh, we're
worried about colon cancer.
Hey, let's get colon
Right.
Screening.
We screen all kinds of things.
Yeah.
And that's the hardest thing on the
concussion side is I get a lot of
people come in and they're like,
oh, well I was good before this.
I was like, where you, or
you just think you were
Right.
Were you able to
a baseline,
Yeah.
get a proper baseline.
So that way if something does
happen, you're going to, you
know where to get back to.
And you may find out during that
baseline that you actually have some
issues that need to be addressed.
And when you do.
You feel better?
Well, and like you said,
turn, turn the bus around now.
I mean, this is, this is the time.
Oh, whatever.
Wherever you are, whoever
you are, this is the time.
Like later is never a good
time to be addressing wellness.
And, and so, um, I love the idea of like
just checking in and checking balance.
It's not something we
don't tend to get up and.
Well, some people brush your teeth on
one foot, but, but we don't get it.
We're not checking in, right?
Like if joints hurt, we know joints hurt.
If your gut's upset, you know,
gut's upset if, if you have brain
fog, you know the days it's worse.
The days it's better, but you
may not think to check balance.
So, yeah, that's in incredible advice.
I have, you know, a million other
things I can ask you, but you, you gave
us such amazing gold, um, for people
that are listening on the go, which
is how I tend to listen to podcasts.
Where's the best place
for them to find you?
Yeah, the best place to find me
is at IdahoBrainandbody.com or
on really any social media, Dr.
S Zimmerman, z i a m m e r m e N.
That's gonna be TikTok Instagram.
Um, might even have some longer videos
on YouTube if you're like, Ooh, I
wanna see what your testing looks like.
I've got concussion videos on that
where I show you some of those
results, and so you can be like,
Ooh, that's what it looks like.
That's what the data looks like.
Amazing guys.
Check him out.
Like I said, I was, I was stalking
some of your social earlier and,
um, I, I learned so much from you
in this one short conversation.
Uh, I feel like I'm leaving with a
lot of homework, so I really, really
appreciate you taking the time.
To share what you're doing with us.
And, and I see huge up levels in,
in the future as more and more
people are connecting the, the dots
between brain health and, and health.
And um, I know when I say it, I kind of
chuckle cuz I'm like, that's so obvious.
Why, why are we not talking
about this all the time?
Um, so really thank you
so much for joining.
Yeah, thanks for having.
For everyone listening.
Remember, you can get the
show notes and transcripts by
visiting inspiredliving.show.
I hope you had a great time and
enjoyed this episode as much as I
did and learned as much as I did.
And if you're not already, follow
me on Instagram at julie dot
Michaelson and tune in next week
to listen to the next episode.
