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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Today's topic is really hard. I'm so sensitive to the conversation we're having today about divorce. Honestly, my team and I wrestled with how much we want to continue to talk about this topic, but I personally know many of you are struggling with the dynamics surrounding divorce. After reviewing previous episodes and receiving emails and comments and DMs from listeners who have so many questions, we realize there's still more to unpack. So today we're going to talk about some of the questions that really affect us when we're walking through divorce or the divorce effect on individuals, families and friendships. Now, before we get into the content, don't forget about the free listener guide that you can download using the link in the show notes. Now we've got several questions to talk through. So let's go. First question, how do I talk to my kids about divorce? How do I talk to my parents about divorce?
Jim Cress:
You want me to go first?
Joel Muddamalle:
For sure.
Jim Cress:
Well, mine's going to be, again, I think simple at one level. How old are your kids? I always want to start ... when people throw out questions, I'm going to say, “I've got to interview them.” Well, how old are your kids? For that matter, if you're talking about your parents, if you go there, how old are your parents? How much of the truth can they hold in almost a need-to-know basis? I'd look at with parents or kids: Could they turn and weaponize it on [inaudible]. "We told you not to marry him or her, or that this was going to happen." I think that assessment of oneself, of reading the room, knowing your audience: How much can they handle around this? With your kids, how much do your kids already know about the current situation? Was there infidelity involved?
Some kids say, "We know all this." Usually we find out kids know a whole lot more going on than we think they do. So how much do they always already know? I think if they're minor kids, I'm always big on, you know what? As a professional counselor, you need to get legal consultation because it could involve other things. And if you're talking behind the back or the kids end up as a conduit, taking it to your soon-to-be-ex or your ex knowing what that is about. And even yes, professional counseling to say, "The kids are here. We are a system. What level am I going to share?" And you cannot — that I'm aware of — you cannot control your ex or soon to be ex's narrative of what they tell the kids.
And I think just answer your kids in an age-appropriate way. And my last thing on this is, I would want you to give your kids at least the permission to ask you any question they want to ask and give yourself permission, as the parent who's going through divorce or who's gone through divorce, give yourself the permission that you answer only the questions you want to answer and how you want to answer them.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I do think it's really important to try to do a little bit of assessment of what do the kids already know? And they may or may not be honest with you around that, but sometimes it's not so much that the kids want to know all the facts, but rather they just want to know what this weird feeling is that's been in their home. And so I do think that if they ask a certain question and you're not able to answer it, you can be honest with them, but don't lie to them because the lying is going to form secrets. And secrets within a family really are destructive. Joel, do you have any thoughts about this?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I'm empathetic. Well, I would say my primary experience with this has been as a youth pastor in years past. And so I'll speak from that perspective. The majority of the conversations that I had with students, junior high and high school, the interesting thing is the perception of the conversation was so much about themselves as the active agents, as the cause of the divorce. And so one of the things just pragmatically that I would say is reinforce. If you think that you're saying it too much, say it a little bit more: your value and your love for these children, that they don't take ownership for the things that they should not take ownership for. And you verbalizing and saying that to them will be the track record of repetition that they're going to need as they consistently process this in other environments that are not the environment that is safe and contained like home. And children are talking.
My kids are 12, 10 [and] 8. And we've got Emmy who's going to turn 4. And the other day, Luki came in, and he had some conversations with some friends who were going through ... their parents were going through a divorce. And for him, this is a child of ... He came in, and he started asking some tough questions: "Mom and Dad, would you guys ever get divorced? What would happen? Would we get ..." So the conversations are happening in other environments, and that ability to consistently reinforce our love for our children, their value, their worth, their dignity, I think is super, super important.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think for me, when I was walking through the divorce, I had so many conflicting feelings because there was a part of me that ... I had been really hurt, and I wanted to protect my kids from being hurt in some of the same ways. Now I'm not talking about physically; I'm talking about emotionally. And so I had this great desire to protect them. And at the same time, because they were adults, I knew they needed to have their own journey. And so there was this great battle inside of my heart. I wanted to do good in the midst of what was really, really hard, but sometimes there just aren't good answers. I wish today that I could give you a script and I could say, “This is what to do, this is what to say, [and] this is what not to say.” But honestly in my experience, it was so organic; it just unfolded.
And my primary thing every day was: Lord, help me not to say the things that would be harmful or hurtful in this dynamic. Only let me say what is helpful. And where I mess up, please give me grace and protect my children. And where I get it right, will you give me some encouragement in my heart that was the right thing to do? And I just want to encourage you that it's hard. And if you have friends that you think have really walked this journey really well and they've had to communicate things with their kids, ask them about some of their experiences. Because I just don't think we're going to be able to give you a perfectly put-together script. I think it's going to be so much more organic. I will say that one of the most pivotal conversations for me was when my adult kids came to me and said that they needed to draw a boundary with some of our conversations.
And the boundary was that they didn't want me to bring up their dad. If they needed to talk about their dad, they would [inaudible] him up, but they didn't want me to bring it up. And at first I bristled with that because I thought, How is that going to work? But I quickly figured out the dynamics were already hurtful enough. I didn't need to reinforce that. What was much healthier for me is to continue to point them toward good things that we were going to walk toward in the future, even though we are experiencing this deep hardship as a family.
Joel Muddamalle:
I know we're talking about divorce particularly, but if I could take a step back and talk about [a] foundational principle. I remember, Lysa, one of the things that you had said to me very early on ... I asked you because I've always marveled at the closeness of your kids, your adult children. You guys like to have fun. One of your daughters ... we always joke, [but] I think she can just live with you guys all the time, bring her whole family and just play games. It's just a beautiful thing. And I remember asking you, “How did this happen?” I've got these little kids, and I'm trying to navigate this, my wife and I. And you said something that has stuck with me forever. You said, "Joel, you just keep them talking; keep them talking.”
And I just think about this conversation as it would relate to something as tragic as divorce and painful. But the principle of this is also true for something like death or loss or uncertainty that happens in your family. And it's like, how do we talk about any of these things? I think the investment early on — and it's never too late to start no matter how old your kids are — early on of just like: keep them talking; create environments of open communication so that when these things do happen, if they happen to the extent that they happen, there's an ability to have [an] honest, transparent conversation that's going to be healthy.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I think somewhere along the way, there became this universal statement that parents would say, and it was like, "Don't talk back to me." And I understand that, and we do want to raise respectful children, but I learned that when I would say things like that, the kids would shut down. And when they stopped talking, I stopped having an influence or an inroad into what they were experiencing. So early on in my parenting, I just said, “You know what? Keep them talking. And if they get disrespectful, address the disrespect, but don't shut down the conversation.”
Joel Muddamalle:
You also said something like, “If they say something that freaks you out, freak out on the inside.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, freak on the inside, but tell your face, “Just stay in that place where you're like, huh, that is really interesting.” Don't show it on your face because the minute you show it on your face, it’ll also shut down the conversation. Jim, I very much like what you said too. Sometimes you're not going to be able to answer the questions, so maybe you could say, "I can't answer that question, but I can answer this one," and then figure out how to keep the conversation going. OK, what about your parents? Or even how do I talk about divorce with my church community? Because both of those things can feel really scary.
Jim Cress:
I have a little thing I use ... if you were to call it a technique or something, you can. And I don't do this in a smart-aleck way or condescending way. If someone were to say, "Hey, I would like to know; so-and-so's going on with you right now." One fair answer at times is: If Joel asked me that, I could say, "Help me know how it would be helpful for you if I answered the question or gave you the data about what's going on in my relationship right now." I think a lot of people can feel that that's rude, but sometimes we can just blurt it out or feel obliged I need to answer that. So on the need-to-know basis, really feel if there's a line delineating between your kids or your kids and there was that soon-to-be ex, who was their parent, and your parents.
Or friends in churches. I almost feel like they keep moving out in these concentric circles, but with your parents is to say again, “Why do they need to know specifics?” And if they want to know, I want you to feel safe. He actually used the word earlier in here, and I thought, He's got that clinical language I use a lot. We talked about contained. We talked about that in counseling ... of the container. Safety and to have the container. So if I'm going to open this up here with my parents, I want frame it up, and I want to do that myself, or for you to do it yourself ... for you to do it yourself. Here are my boundaries around this conversation. You have to know your parents. Are they going to start investigating or [say] "Well, we told you this wouldn't work out." That whole idea there is to say, "What is it you need to know? And how much do they need to know?”
Again, a common one I work with is infidelity. How much do your parents need to know about that, and what are they going to do with that information? So I think the confidentiality or the privacy of it is important. How much do they need to know? And then for you to be prepared that once you release that data, once you say to anyone, “Here's what's going on,” you have lost control over that. The toothpaste is out of the tube. So I want a person to be willing to know once I say, "Well, here's some of the dynamics I may not share publicly, but I'll share with you," then what they do with that is important. I'm clear on — as you and I did in the Healthy Conversations contract — is that I want to be clear and say, "I'm asking for your complete confidentiality in what I'm about to share.”
Can I be honest [inaudible]? I don't think that works. Anecdotally, I don't think it works much. It works some because we're just wired for gossip and we're wired for, "Hey, don't tell anyone else." But I want to at least say, “I'm asking you” ... then get a receipt. Joel, if I'm saying that to you, “Are you willing to keep this confidential?” I need [you] to be careful, even with Brit at home; I don't want you to even tell her.
So I think getting that framed up and say, “Here's what I'm asking for” because you may have siblings, and your parents tell the siblings, and you can only control what you can. That's the old serenity prayer, right? Grant me the serenity ... I'm going to change it to a different version of it. Give me the serenity, God, to accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the person I can change, and the wisdom to know the only person I can change is myself. That's my thought around that. I think it's very dynamically unique to each person how close you are to Mom and Dad, what do you want to share; and again, once you share it, you don't get it back.
Lysa TerKeurst:
In one of our sessions early on, Jim, I was feeling a lot of pressure because I felt like I don't want to be the kind of person who keeps secrets. So I was feeling the pressure that if I don't say something, I'm being dishonest. Or if I just say a little bit but not the full truth, then I'm being dishonest. And there was just a lot of conflicting emotions around that. And we discussed in that counseling session that there's a big difference between privacy and secrecy. Privacy is withholding information for the sake of healing. Secrecy is withholding information for the sake of hiding, so that bad behavior can continue. And so when I broke it apart that way, I'm not keeping secrets, but I am choosing to hold some things private maybe for now, maybe forever. And I think that allows us the freedom not to feel obligated to tell people the full story.
And there's a big difference too; you can share the basic facts of what are going on. And facts are something that people can pray through, pray for, all of that. But going into detail ... it's like giving away so much information that people get distracted in all of the details. And that's where a lot of the debate comes in. And if you're going through this, you're going to be so emotionally exhausted you just don't want to set yourself up for a debate. So I think it's reading the audience. Who are you talking to — whether it's your parents, your friends, your church community — and do what is helpful for you but not harmful to other people involved.
Jim Cress:
I'm going to give you a practical one. You've heard me say it; we did it in this very series. You know what you get to do? Sit an empty chair down; put a 3-by-5 Kleenex; write Mom's name on it, Dad's name on it, siblings’ name on it, your children's name on it, friends in the church, whoever that might be. And just do a dress rehearsal and just practice it. You might even put your phone out and record it and say, "Let me go back and see how I said. Nervous or did I overtalk?" And you can practice that. We do that in many other arenas. Practice that before you kind of go on stage with these people and say, “I now know,” ... maybe like you used your phone to record and go, "I want to edit that out.”
And we have notes that we use here. And we're not just reading on a teleprompter here, but we have some notes to say: Here's what I want to say. And some people, I've coached to many and counseled to say, "No, I do actually want you to write." I call it a teleprompter script to say, "Mom and Dad, kids, whoever, friends, here's my statement. What I want to read, this much and no less. And I'm not open for comments or questions at the end of it yet. Not yet." But I think that's that containment so that you don't have this vulnerability hangover later: “I wish I wouldn't have said all that.”
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really good. And also I think if the point of the conversation is to inform them, you can inform them without explaining everything. But another point of the conversation may be because you need some help. You need some practical help; you need some emotional support, whatever. So I would be clear, not so much about the details but about what you need from them. Because immediately people are going to want to either lean in and know more, or they're going to want to lean in and help. And the people who lean in and want to help, those are the people that you can be honest with: “Hey, this would really help me in this season.”
Joel Muddamalle:
I think there's an important part of that with wisdom and discernment too. As you're navigating who you trust, how you trust them, what levels of communication you're going to have, Jim, you've said often trust requires time plus believable behavior. And I know that even in this discussion, this conversation, we're trying to identify people who will hold your highest good with a great amount of value. And so in that, is the goal to get more info? And then what is the purpose of just more information versus just goal: your health and your healing and finding you in a place where you're making progress every day toward ultimately Jesus and in moving on with your life in a positive way. And so I think discernment in those conversations is incredibly important.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And like we've talked about before: Words frame our reality. And because words frame our reality, I think it's important to, when we're talking about a divorce, to really express the fullness of what this really is. And for me, it was the deepest grief I've ever known. And so instead of calling it a divorce, I called it the death of my marriage. And I ask people, “Treat this as if I'm going through a death.” And that the process of grieving is sometimes going to be messy and unpredictable, and I need to let my grief take me where I need to go. And that doesn't mean that I'm always going to be completely vulnerable with everything that I'm feeling, but the assurance you can have is that I am talking to people who are trained to help me deal with this grief. And I think that that's really appropriate as well.
So as we wrap up, we're going to have to do this one really quickly. Is it possible not to pick sides in a divorce? I'm going to go first with this one. I really can't stand it when somebody says, "Well, there's two sides to every story." That statement, for whatever reason, was hugely triggering for me because my thought is, why are we picking sides? This isn't a spectator sport. This is a family being decimated. And so instead of picking a side, why not just step in and help wherever you can help? Be silent about things that you don't need to talk about. And if you use words, let them be words of great compassion and not judgment. Any other things that you guys would like to say as we wrap up?
Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I would just say ... yeah, you're going to be surprised, Lysa. I say, “Yeah, you are going to pick a side.” And the side is the greatest good of each image bearer in this discussion. And that greatest good might mean setting boundaries in a separation of relationship. Or it might be really diving deep into a relationship because there's so much hurt and there's so much pain and there's a vulnerability that needs to be tended for and cared for. But the filter is the greatest good of both image bearers. And like I said, sometimes it's going to take specific actions depending on the scenario.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really good, Joel.
Jim Cress:
I think ... just look in sports, certainly look in politics, and we are wired, especially in that lower limbic brain. Or if we're in trauma, like the death of a marriage known as a divorce, that we're wired to pick sides. And during that time, allow that person focusing more on picking [inaudible] and picking sides to say, "What's going on in me? Even the kids involved, where do they have a safe place to go grieve and process it?" And it sounds like bad news as we end here. I rarely see what I'm about to say, but oh, if we could see this more, and it is what I work with many couples who've gone through divorce: I've never told one person — [and] I won't — “You need a divorce.” That's not going to be my decision as a therapist.
I've said to them, "It's rare that people do an amicable divorce, or if something goes on, and what if your spouse even is out there trashing you or whatever else, then you can stay unilateral. And no matter what goes on, not to — for, yes, the sake of the kids — not to try to put them in the middle or you to try to get them campaigning for them to take sides." I will tell you I rarely see it. Hurt people hurt people, and so appreciative of people who would say, "I'm going to take this particular healthy, godly high road with what goes on." By the way, if you rip it and say, "I took a shot at my ex," repair it, at least with your kids. Say, "I don't want to treat you this way. That's still your father; that's still your mother," whatever else. But I think there's so much limbic trauma brain going on. Most people are going to pick sides, try to get people on their sides. I wish that could go differently.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I would just make the request: Don't use the statement, “There's two sides to every story.” While I understand the practical sentiment of that statement, it automatically sets the conversation up for a division that's going to be hurtful on both sides. So thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Therapy & Theology.