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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Happy July 5th, Tom.
Happy July 5th.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you doing?
Doing well.
We have a lot of each other.
These, I guess these, yesterday and today.
And it's wonderful.
Yeah.
I'm really happy about it.
Yeah, me too.
It's been a pleasure.
Yeah.
We went over to your house last night
and you grilled for us on the 4th of July
and we listened to fireworks and saw a
remarkable amount of them, by the way.
I didn't tell you.
Up on the hill at the top of your street,
there were lots of people just standing
there on the corner and looking out, and
the fireworks from the top of that hill
are really cool, so in future, future July
4th, just wander halfway up the block,
you have a solid fireworks display there.
Fantastic.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
Yeah, we we played a little game for
variants of chess that we like to play
with a friend who's moving out of town.
Yep.
And so it was a little
bit of a going away.
Get together for us.
And I think at the end there was
this poignant comment from from
our friend David who said, Oh, we
should have done this more often.
Yeah.
It's one of those things where
we used to do this all the time
before we lived in the same city.
And then we all moved to the same
city and we stopped doing it, which
I think was maybe predictable, but
yes, I think we all felt that way,
that this thing that we lost by being
all in the same city, ironically.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a bummer that
we stopped doing it.
Maybe, I guess the silver lining is maybe
now that we aren't all in the same city,
Yeah, we can pick it up online again.
Maybe there's room for
us to pick it up again.
That's true, actually.
But, yeah, it was a little bit
funny to all agree at the end that
we should have done it more often.
July 4th also had me thinking a little
bit about this text, actually, about
meditations, because America and the...
Military in particular, which is
sometimes associated with being
celebrated on the 4th, is also famously
in America the biggest fans of this
particular book that we're reading.
And I was thinking a little bit more
about that, I think in our first episode
we talked about what we knew about this.
Text before we were starting it and one
of the very few things that I knew about
it was oh, yeah Marines or whatever
seemed to love this book and we listened
to this guy who said oh, it's because
it's really It's a useful philosophy
if you're in the foxhole or whatever
because it's like just focus on your
own duty and Etc and that sort of made
sense to me at the time Yeah, but now
that we've read some more of the book.
I wanted to revisit that thought.
Is this a good?
Philosophy for military folks or soldiers
or whatever, because the more I was
thinking about it, the less sure I was
that this is good, easy philosophy for
somebody to, who's executing difficult
military missions to, to work with.
Okay, at a glance.
Yeah.
My, my knee jerk reaction is still
yes, because it's like a lot of
it is live by your principles and
control the things you can control and
everything else, will fall into place.
The, I guess if you're in the military,
your principles are being cohesive is more
important than, being right or whatever.
So you just do as you're commanded
and you do a good job and that's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Here's what was coming to mind for me.
Yeah.
I feel like.
Even in our last episode, the last
chapter we were reading, there was a lot
about, making sure that your actions are
aligned with the gods and morality, and
that's the sort of guiding as long as
you're true to yourself and the universe,
then what other people tell you, who
cares, and so it seems to me like,
sure, it's very much about in some ways
like figuring out what the moral thing
to do is, and then doing it regardless
of what everybody else is telling you.
And that seems like exactly like very
tricky advice for soldiers to follow,
especially modern American soldiers.
I can see how for.
For Marcus's armies, it might have
felt like the worst, they were
fending off barbarian invasions.
That feels clear cut, morally good.
Yeah.
For a US soldier deployed abroad right
now, boy, seems a little blurrier.
We're here because of some WMDs?
Question mark?
Yeah.
That makes sense.
I think this is a text more
intended for the commanders.
Yeah.
Because it's for people
who have to make decisions.
And they need to set principles on how
they're going to make those decisions.
Yeah.
There are people like that
in the military, right?
If you go high enough up.
I think there are probably some people
who make decisions somewhere up the chain.
Yeah.
You have to go pretty
high, I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think that makes sense.
Yeah, obviously it's being written
by a guy who is at that level.
But if you're a grunt, then, what
is your philosophy as a grunt?
It's execute.
Yeah, it's execute and, don't worry
about, just, yeah, just execute,
is that not a form of stoicism?
If you would have asked me before
we started reading the book, I would
have said that is what stoicism is.
Yeah, I think I agree, and now
I'm thinking, oh, it's a little
more complicated than that.
That's a good point.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I'm not sure that, if anything, it
almost feels like this text might be,
if it got into the hands of too many...
Grunts.
It could be trouble, because
they might say, wait a minute.
All my commanders running
around yeah, exactly.
Why am I listening to this guy?
He's not aligned with what's in my spirit.
Or whatever.
That's true, yeah, Marcus is
getting more philosophical on us.
Yeah.
In book three.
I wonder if soldiers could
read in Marcus's era.
Like the grunts.
I'm guessing no.
Yeah, so maybe that answers the question.
He's writing for the people who can read.
He's writing for nobody.
He's writing for himself.
Yeah, he's writing for no one, but
he really didn't think it was going
to end up in the hands of, yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay, so as we transition to Book
4, what would we like to bring
personally to today's session?
Something that I think it's pretty easy to
just start with something that's bothering
me that I would like Marcus's wisdom on.
Yeah.
Do you want to go first?
I'm happy to go first.
It sounds like you have something in mind.
Yeah, I'm happy to go first
since I sprung the question.
Yeah.
So this is one of those, half formed,
it's not going to be particularly
eloquent, but I have this this classic
concoction especially recently at work of.
Some version of like restlessness, fear
and guilt, those three yeah, we're in
this kind of off season time where I can
feel the energy of the company reduced.
And I feel, I know that there was this
journey we were on that is on a, it's
not entirely attainable right now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel a personal responsibility to
be the cheerleader, but at the same time
I've I'm somewhere in between basically.
And what I think is, what I think
is happening is, it's that last
chapter that really spoke to me.
It's the lack of principles.
I don't, this doesn't fit this
period of time where I'll just go
ahead and say it since I guess I'm
going to go ahead and say it and
we'll see if we cut it out later.
But we're trying to.
We the company which means we have
to operate in a mode that's very
different than if we were to try
to raise more venture capital.
We're not hiring, we're, we're less
focused on growth, we're more focused
on synergies with these potential
acquirers and all these things.
And so it's this misalignment.
There's this the lowest of the
low days feel like, okay, I'm
like backstabbing the team.
It's really the highest, the sort of.
They're really like if I really sit
down and think consciously and force
my mind to be principled It's this is
I'm making the best of the situation at
hand But I think what makes it tricky
and what I'd like why I'd like to see
it through meditations today is because
It doesn't feel principled, right?
In that last chapter he talks about
you decide, either you're gonna have
these principles, or you're gonna live
like an animal, but if you're gonna
live like an animal be an animal.
And I feel like I, I've had these,
for the past four years, I've had
these set of principles that don't
align with what's happening now.
For me personally.
Interesting.
Can you elaborate a little bit
on, does it feel like you have
principles that are being violated
by what you're doing right now?
So one of the big principles is
work hard, good things come later.
Yeah, I see.
I've delegated everything, and I'm doing
a job that doesn't require it's not, I
can't just pour more time into this thing.
Like I'm, basically it's a lot of
finessing, it's a lot of patience,
instead of being a lot of Okay, I just
need to accomplish this task and do it
well and then move on to the next task.
And so I think that's one big principle I
just have a really hard time with is Yeah.
My, me being productive and just
putting in full work days is not, First
of all, I don't, it's not actually
the right thing for the business.
But it still feels like I'm doing
something wrong by not having it.
So that's one principle.
Yeah.
I think there is an element of I
feel very, I've always believed
that money doesn't matter.
And it's about the
experience about the journey.
It's about the relationships you build.
And so that's also goes against this.
Part of an acquisition is like
that, a part of that is money.
Yeah.
And And if it was just about the
experience, then we would, buckle
down and just just, cockroach and
just keep on building great product.
And, but I, I guess there, I guess I'm
reaching a stage of my life where maybe
that principle is changing a little bit,
not that like I, I don't need all the
money in the world but I do feel like.
Boy, have I have a lot of all
of us and me included been like
sacrificing money for a long time.
Yep.
Yep.
And it wouldn't hurt to just, yeah.
So I think these are principles
that are being violated.
I don't quite have a new set of
principles yet because I've relied
on those old ones for my whole life.
Yeah.
And so I'm adjusting.
Yeah, I see.
Yep.
That sounds hard.
It does seem like.
Knowing that I think you said at the
beginning of this you weren't going to
be able to articulate this very clearly.
Yeah.
That did feel pretty
clearly articulated to me.
I'm at stage one, which is say it.
No, there's a problem.
Yeah, no, there's a problem.
This feels like one of those
things maybe to me where knowing
there's a problem Is all it is.
And being able to put it into words is
a, maybe not all it is, but is a big
part of What you need especially the
first bit about feeling dissatisfied
about not being able to just dump
your productivity yet into the
success of the business or whatever.
Yeah, I get that.
That feels dissatisfying.
But on some level, if you know that you're
doing what's right for all of us, that
does seem to me like you are still living.
There's tension between these principles,
of work really hard all the time and
be super productive and do what's
right for everybody who's here.
And it seems like you're
implicitly choosing do what's
right for everyone who's here.
But yeah I...
It's been going on for,
probably eight months now.
And it, I know consciously
that I'm supposed to feel...
Proud of myself for doing this
thing that's hard that that is
the right thing for the business.
But I just, I can't, I am having such
a hard time getting over the hump and
I don't know what it's, Marcus would
probably just say, dig into your soul,
set your principles, be clear about them.
Yeah.
Did Marcus ever have, maybe
he had Trajan who was like,
you're doing a good job, buddy.
Good job, buddy.
Keep it up.
He probably had lots of people
saying you're like the greatest
emperor of all time, right?
There's something different about
having supplicants versus having
someone who's opinion you care about.
Opinion you care about.
Or not even a, it's not that I don't
care, like my, I care about my wife's
opinion, but I just, I want someone who's
I don't know, just like an authority
figure in this space, in this particular
to tell me I'm doing a great job.
Yeah.
No, it's fine.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So I think that connects to, this is
also only half baked, but it connects
to the thing that came to mind for me
about how I'm relating to this text so
far over the course of the first three
books, which is that I'm more interested
by it than I thought I would be.
I was very unsure when we set
out to do this podcast whether or
not I would be interested at all.
In part because I thought it was going
to be more military ish than it turns
out to be, which is not very much so far.
But there is this thing that is always,
every time we read it, is bugging me with
every sentence we read, which is this
presumption that Marcus seems to have
about knowing how to resolve conflicts of
morality or principles or whatever else.
It's exactly what you're
articulating, I think.
Where he seems to assume that we all
have this sense of morality and we know
it's right and you just have to choose
to just listen and choose to do it.
It's exactly like what you've just
described, where two principles that
you've long held that have served
you well have come into conflict
with one another in your life.
And that creates an unpleasant...
Feeling and some uncertainty about what to
do next and he is always all around Things
like that he skips over that part and
it's always just yeah It's and he doesn't
even seem to think of it as a question.
It's just well, of course like
you'll just resolve that by what's
in alignment with nature and the
way of the world or whatever, right?
And that I think it stops me from really
using this text that much in my everyday
Life, because it just feels like that
is the kind of issue you're articulating
is most of the stuff that is hard in
life and he doesn't answer me, or at
least I haven't figured out how to
use him to answer the question there.
What do you have an
application of that problem?
Is there yeah, let me, cause I'm trying
to think of one too and the areas
that I'm thinking of, I'm all like.
All of them I'm like, okay, I
think I know the right answer.
I think I know the principle I'm
supposed to do here okay, I don't I
Wonder if there's something about the
framing where it's like He's actually
talking about things that are obvious.
Yeah Like even to us Okay, but do you
think all of life is like that though?
I mean if the principles are if you
go down to like atomic principles of I
Golden rule and, just maybe you can boil
it down to a level where the principles
you use are obvious enough where,
yeah, maybe all of life is like that.
But I, maybe we can find an
example and that can help us.
Yeah, okay.
Boy, maybe that's a homework
for me for next episode.
I don't have, right off the
top of my head, I don't I don't
have a good example of that.
But I can work on that.
So we're trying to find a
morally ambiguous problem.
Or, it doesn't even, a truly
morally ambiguous problem probably
doesn't happen that much in my life.
But I think, I wouldn't describe
the thing that you're going
through as morally ambiguous.
It's more just you're feeling
some tension between your
principles, or something like that.
Oh, you're changing principles, basically.
Or just you have encountered a situation
where multiple principles you, you
hold seem to apply and they tell you to
do different stuff and it's now what?
I think that is, and it, in your case,
it seems like you still know what you
want to do, but it creates this really
unpleasant feeling that you're going
against your principles in order to do it.
I guess that's true.
He never talks about that.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess life viewed through
Marcus's eyes is just, it doesn't
seem like his principles ever changed.
There's just a static set of
principles applied to life every day.
Yeah, and maybe a sort of benefit
of the doubt reading would say.
Marcus was how old when he started writing
these texts, he was already a man who
had been through a lot and probably felt
you know what, I have got my principles
figured out, and I am moving on to other
questions about how to administer those
principles in my life or whatever, and
so that's what we read in this text, but
it's hard for me not to feel like, yeah,
that question of Principles have tension.
He does this thing all the time about
listing like six different virtues in a
list being like live just with honesty
and justice and virtue and patience
and it's yeah, of course we'd all
like to do that all the time, right?
But sometimes, yeah, those, that's true.
They don't, they conflict or
it's at least not clear, like
which one should win or whatever.
Anyway, that's a great point.
This is my point about Marcus.
Yeah.
Let's keep an eye on that and see, yeah.
Yeah.
See, yeah, if we can find
examples where that doesn't work.
Yeah.
Tom, what personal thing would you
like to bring to today's reading?
The thing we talked about last episode
that is still probably the thing that's
mostly on my mind these days is being
single and not super happy with that and
feeling a little unsure, certainly wanting
to date and stuff, but also dreading it.
So feeling that there's tension there too,
but is that a tension of principles or
is that just a tension of ex execution?
It's not really a tension of principles.
I agree.
Perfect application of stoicism.
. Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's fair.
I think you might be right.
That I could probably use a little more
stoicism in my approach to I wonder if
there is actually, you know what, I wonder
if it is actually underneath the surface.
The reason it feels difficult is because
there is a tension of principles.
There's some principle of
yours which is authenticity.
And there's some principle of yours which
is you believe that partnership is good.
Yeah.
And then it's hard to be authentic
and date and find, yeah, I think
that's perceptive actually.
I think there is, there's
definitely truth to that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's hot.
Okay, so Marcus would say,
Justice, patience, honesty.
And it's what do you do with those things?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's...
I guess patience.
You just say...
You pick one.
Okay.
Seems like a hack.
I guess I just meant just, your job is
to date, and I'm gonna do it, and I'm
gonna be patient, and it's not gonna
work out, or it's not gonna be good
initially, and I'm just gonna do it.
Yep.
Yep.
I agree.
I think.
That is the correct perspective.
Yeah.
And that, like you intellectually
knowing the thing that I'm
supposed to be doing Yeah.
Doesn't necessarily make it
feel good while I'm doing
it, or make me not dread it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think that's par for
the course for stoicism.
Yeah.
I, it threads everything.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
I wish I, yeah, I know.
I wish we knew.
Yeah.
I was looking, yeah.
I was.
Trying to find like movies about Marcus
Aurelius and there's dreadfully few
there's a couple gladiator Like, that
he's actually shown on the big screen,
thinking through difficult decisions.
I see.
You can understand, with a text
like this, how it would be hard
to bring it to the silver screen.
That's true.
That's true.
But I'd love to just get some visual
representations of this guy in my head.
Historical depictions of him.
The only one I have is is from
Gladiator, where he's just a
silver maned can do no wrong.
I see.
Gets suffocated by, with a pillow by...
Oh.
I haven't seen Gladiator since
I was a little very young,
too young to understand it.
We should watch it.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's great.
He gets suffocated with
a pillow by his son?
Yep.
Is that historically accurate?
It's unclear how he died so it could be.
But it includes possible...
Yeah, murder.
patricide, yeah.
Okay.
Wow.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, I like that approach since we're so
committed to not really learning history.
Let's just learn some fiction
about Marcus and fold it into it.
Apparently Gladiator is decent.
Is it?
Okay, I have no idea.
But it does seem like a funny thing to do.
We could just go read history books.
But nah, let's use the, let's
use entertainment instead as
our way of learning about him.
Yeah.
Nice.
Cool.
Should we start book four here?
Let's do it, book four.
Okay.
So this one, strangely
doesn't have a title, right?
Yeah, just book four.
How did they decide these
were different books?
Did he run out of pages in his journal?
I wonder if they were literally different
books, like different whole journals.
I guess he does start from
number one again, so yeah.
Yeah, he must have just run
out of pages in his journal.
I wonder if they were even
able, are these chronological?
Did they just find 12 journals
or whatever and be like, Okay,
I guess this is number two.
And some of them he scrolled on
the cover incarnuntum or whatever.
Yeah.
And some of them were
just unlabeled journal.
Yeah.
Interesting.
It feels, if he was just, if it was just
a journal that he essentially he just
needed different pieces of paper to write
it on and he was running out of paper,
then he wouldn't start from one again.
Yeah, that's a good point.
So I feel like these must be
somehow connected thoughts.
Yeah.
I could not tell you what...
Yeah, what the book three was what?
Animal Jaws?
How to act?
And then...
Number one was different.
Book number one...
Book number one was definitely different.
was a gratitude journal.
Yeah.
Book number two was epic with when you
wake up in the morning, tell yourself...
Yes, book number two but book
number two and book number three
are pretty similar to my ear.
It's a lot of the same kind.
The format is the same.
I'd be hard pressed to find a difference.
Yeah, and it looks to me just at
my first glance of book number four
here, that it is generally the same
format anyway as books two and three.
So let's see, I think that is
something we'll certainly have
our eye on here is he changing?
Is book four different?
Why didn't he give this a title?
Meditation.
She doesn't need to.
It's certainly not as if the titles
of the previous books added to
our understanding of them at all.
So maybe he just parsimony here.
Okay.
Book four, number one.
Our inward power, when it obeys
nature, reacts to events by
accommodating itself to what it faces.
To what is possible.
It needs no specific material.
It pursues its own aims
as circumstances allow.
It turns obstacles into fuel,
as a fire overwhelms what
would have quenched a lamp.
What's thrown on top of the
conflagration is absorbed, consumed
by it, and makes it burn still higher.
. Wow.
Okay.
Okay.
This feels new.
Yeah.
So on our inward power,
when it obeys nature.
So what does that mean?
Yeah.
Our inward power feels
like a new phrase for him.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.
I'm interpreting that.
When you're basically
following your principles.
Yeah.
When it obeys, nature
is a familiar phrase.
So it seems yeah, we have these
capabilities when we live the way
I'm prescribing that we live and.
And it's very powerful.
And I think what he's also saying
here is it's very flexible.
That it responds.
And it, we are limitlessly able to
respond to our circumstances and build
this huge fire of our former problems.
And this bit about it
turns obstacles into fuel.
Is very epic sounding.
Like a flame.
Yeah.
It seems almost a little bit like cliche
or something to be like problems are
just opportunities type, like every
challenge is good for you and it is a nice
metaphor of the way fires work though.
You know how yeah, basically if you
like a log on the outside, bark is
actually fire retardant and it's very
hard to light a log on the outside,
but if it's in a flame already.
Then it's fuel, I say, and the flame
is your power is your inner power.
When it obeys nature in word power.
In word power.
Tom, how does this supply
your dating life real quick?
boy I mean it.
If you date in a principled
way, while being authentic.
If your process is right.
Obstacles will be consumed in flame.
Yeah, everybody just gets thrown on the
fire, and it makes it burn still higher.
A little intense.
The fire overwhelms what
would have quenched a lamp.
I say, okay.
Yeah, wow very intense
phrasing here, Marcus.
This is interesting, I think, that he
is talking now about human capability
or something like that in a way that
he, I don't really, this feels like
a slightly novel sentiment for him.
That's true, yeah, I yeah, it's a
little bit more here's the upside,
as opposed to don't do this.
Yep, that's nice, yeah, that's
a good way of looking at it.
The pros of living stoically.
Okay, cool.
Alright, let's see if this is
the beginning of a new, more
intense Marcus, hard to imagine
it being more intense, but...
Here we go.
Here we are.
Okay, number two.
No random actions.
None not based on underlying principles.
Period.
The end.
Yeah.
This we have, if you had told me that
we'd already read this bullet point in a
previous book, I would have believed you.
Okay.
So book four, he's still
on his principles thing.
And I wonder who he's scolding.
Is he scolding himself or is
he scolding somebody else?
In his own mind, he's worried
that he committed a random action.
Or he saw somebody else do
something that he felt was a random
action and said that was dumb.
I feel like when he talks about other
people, it's just a whole different tone.
It's just that he's he's supposed to
be kind to other people, remember?
Yeah.
He's supposed to be
patient and kind with them.
This one does feel self reflective.
Yeah.
But boy.
The only person he's not patient
and kind with is himself.
Yeah, no random actions is
such an intense standard.
You made any random actions today?
Yes, thousands already, and
it's only 8am or whatever.
Yeah.
It sounds like a paralyzing way to
live, like to have to think about every
action and be like, was that random?
Okay, that was based on this principle.
Okay, good.
Yeah.
Moving on.
Yes, I agree, it seems impossible.
And it seems also what we now know
about human decision making and
our neurology and stuff says that
there's a lot of, we make a lot
of, we make a lot of our choices
like immediately and instinctively.
And we don't really, we're not
quite as rational decision makers
as we think we are basically.
And yeah, this seems like very
difficult to even do aspire to.
I feel like yeah, he loses me
here a little bit, I think.
Yeah.
There's okay, I'm gonna go ahead
and reference something weird.
There's this, when Obama was in power,
towards the end, he was like, oh, he was
just like, alright, I'm, I did it I spent,
did my eight years, he invited who's
that comedian, the famous White House
Correspondence Center, Michelle Wolfe.
No, anyway, he invited some comedian who
does stand up and he's David has a book
of him Jerry Seinfeld to the White House.
And they like did a little interview
with Jerry Seinfeld and in one
section, he's Do you brush your
teeth before or after eating?
Okay.
Or something like that.
Wait, sorry.
Who's asking who this question?
Jerry is asking Obama.
It's supposed to be like an
expose, getting to know, the most
powerful person in the world.
Yeah.
And and, Obama goes, yeah, before.
And Jerry's oh, why is that?
And Obama's yeah it's how I do
it and I don't need a reason.
Okay.
And.
Interesting.
I just think that was funny
because it could have, I can see.
From, frankly, both of their standpoints
being like, okay, this is probably not
a super interesting conversation to have
on screen and Obama's I don't have a
principle right now behind this, so I
don't I have nothing interesting to say,
so he just went with a thing that actually
turned out to be an interesting response.
Yeah, that is remarkably,
yeah, honest feeling.
Yeah and I guess this coming back
to Marcus, it's like, the underlying
principle is, There are things I just
do and I don't need a reason for.
When I brush my teeth, it's an action.
I'm just like, I don't,
it's just what I do.
Yeah, so maybe another way of saying
that, I think I'm agreeing with you,
is that what he means by action here
is a little bit different maybe than
what we mean by action because some,
brushing your teeth is barely an action.
It's a thing you have to do, but
it's, in some sense, it's not active.
It's just passive.
And it's writ doing it before
or after you read, or whatever,
is not what he's talking about.
Here.
Marcus.
Marcus, yeah.
It doesn't rise to the level of an action.
And therefore, it doesn't need to
be, whether you do it before or after
you read, does not need to be guided.
That's a reading, yeah.
That's like a topicality
on the word actions.
I meant it more as maybe all of
us need a principle that's just
okay, these things don't matter.
I say.
Like one example of that, of a version of
that principle is I just, I make plenty
of decisions day to day, I don't need to
be, I don't care about little decisions.
So you just, you're just you
order what the person next to
you orders at the restaurant.
You just, you don't think very much about
what kind of underwear you're buying.
You wear the same thing every day.
You wear the same thing every day.
Stuff like that.
That's a principled way of...
Yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
I like that.
Otherwise, brushing your teeth
before food is a random action.
Yeah.
It's terrifying.
Yeah.
So we can either play with the
word principles or with the word
actions here basically, I think.
Yeah, that's right.
Those are our only options
because it's a nine word sentence.
Yeah, that's right.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yes, I think those
amount to the same thing.
That he would either, yeah, he
would look at this and say, the
small stuff doesn't matter and
it's not what he's talking about.
Yeah.
Or very likely he has a principle
or a concept of action that
doesn't include the small stuff.
Because it's hard to imagine applying
justice, honesty, patience to when
you brush your teeth in the morning.
Yes.
Exactly.
So I think he just
wouldn't worry about it.
Okay.
Yeah.
And if that's true, then this
feels like a trite observation to
me.
Yeah.
With yeah.
Easy to agree with you there, Marcus.
For sure.
Yeah that's why I'm reading it
as the word principles has the
underline, not the word actions.
Yeah, I think that's a good argument.
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Okay, number three.
People try to get away from it all.
To the country, to the
beach, to the mountains.
You always wish that you could too.
Boom.
Which is idiotic.
You can get away from it anytime you like.
By going within.
Yeah.
Nowhere you can go is more peaceful, more
free of interruptions, than your own soul.
Especially if you have
other things to rely on.
An instant's recollection and there it is.
Complete tranquility.
And by tranquility a kind of harmony.
So keep getting away from it all.
Like that.
Renew yourself.
But keep it brief and basic.
A quick visit should be enough to ward
off all And here we have a word that
seems like it was maybe lost to history.
I'm gonna guess, ward off all worries
or demons or something like that.
And send you back, ready
to face what awaits you.
What's there to complain about?
People's misbehavior?
But take into consideration, and
here we have a bulleted list.
Number one, that rational
beings exist for one another.
That doing what's right
sometimes requires patience.
That no one does the
wrong thing deliberately.
And the number of people who have
feuded, and envied, and hated, and
fought, and died, and been buried.
And then ellipsis.
And keep your mouth shut.
Nice.
Okay, so shut up, basically,
is Marcus's advice here.
Everyone's trying their
best, it's a nice sentiment.
Yeah.
It's like halfway nice.
Roughly delivered, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or are you complaining about the things
the world assigns you, but consider
the two options, providence or atoms.
Whoa.
And all the arguments for
seeing the world as a city.
Let's just pause there for a second.
This is a long entry.
Whoa.
, providence or atoms?
I think I know what he means by that.
But how are you parsing the, that
phrase the providence or Adams?
Are you complaining about the thing
the world assigns you consider the
two options, Providence or Adams?
So atoms, presumably, is just this is
physics you can't do anything about this.
I interpret it as also randomness.
Oh, randomness versus
fate versus randomness.
Yeah, either, yeah.
Yeah, okay, I could see it as
randomness, although that is a very,
there were no atoms in Marcus day.
This seems like a translator's license
to And what a weird word to translate to.
I agree, I wonder, yeah.
Providence or randomness, yeah.
There must have been some sort of
sense of physical randomness that
this is implying, interesting.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
So while we're stopped, sorry, was
there more on Providence or Atoms?
No, I think I agree with
your parsing of that.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
Yeah.
Really relevant idea, like the
grass is greener thing, you can
move somewhere in the mountains.
It's funny that's, Just like
for 2, 000 years, that's
just been a consistent theme.
Everyone just wants to move
to the mountains and...
Yes, the first couple paragraphs
here sound like the beginning
of a mindfulness book written
in 2020 or something like that.
Yeah.
Just, yes, it seems extremely
relevant, very popular idea.
Yeah.
So you mentioned the thing at the
beginning of the episode about
what you're struggling with within
meditations, which is this, like,
how to decide between principles.
For me...
My gripe with it is essentially
what he's saying here, which
is don't scratch the itch.
Just focus and, and go within
and solve your own problems.
Yeah.
And I think, I guess my personal
principle, my principles around this
are like, it's okay to scratch the
itch sometimes, and even if it's
silly, or whatever, or even if it
turns out wrong it's just important
to scratch itches in life sometimes.
Because it's so much more expensive to...
Live without if you if it's a
consistent itch and if if it crosses
some threshold, then it's just
really expensive to keep ignoring it.
It's just yeah, you can go with
it every time and have infinite
patience and all these things,
or you can just go and scratch it
and then find out and come back.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah, I see this all the time with
people in, Oh, people have, I think
a lot of people who are, who go to
big corporations and have great jobs,
but also were like very ambitious.
They over time, they feel this urge to
like, but I need to express my energy in
some pointed way, instead of being a cog.
And it's just like the only solution
is that they should just do it.
I just, I don't think it's one
of those things where they'll
always tell themselves like maybe
later at this point, I'll do this.
It's it's just so expensive.
Like they end up getting frustrated,
more frustrated in their regular
job because they don't let
themselves scratch that itch.
Yeah.
And so my take is just, it's not
that expensive to scratch it for two
years and then come back and then
you'll be happier when you come back.
And you think that's against
what Marcus would counsel?
He, Marcus is framing it as people
try to get away from it all and
think that's going to solve their
problems, but it doesn't I say.
I guess that's how I read it.
Did you read it differently?
I hadn't thought about that example.
Is expressing themselves more
individually or like shedding what
feels like their role as a cog, I
don't know if I equate that with
getting away from it all, exactly.
To me, getting away from it all reads
a little bit differently than that.
I'm not sure what Marcus would think
about the people you're describing right
now, but it's not clear cut to me that
he would say no, continue being a cog.
You'll be, that's, it sounds, like
another reading would be those people feel
something in themselves that is misaligned
with the organization that they're a
part of and they're in a principled
way and they're listening to that.
He might agree with.
Okay.
Okay.
But so how are you reading it?
The getting away from it all?
Disengaging?
Okay.
I read it, I guess pretty literally.
I understand the feeling he's describing,
and I think we all have this fantasy.
Yeah.
I think literally, he uses like geographic
examples, but I think there's also,
in the modern world, there's lots of
other forms of this kind of escape.
Yeah.
Like video games and social media are
all also this kind of escape basically.
Yeah.
And we all just want to do
this like zone out thing.
But instead you should
go deep on your soul.
Yeah.
There is.
So some connective tissue I think with
what we were talking about earlier
here where he's describing this like
He makes it sound so easy, where it's
just Yeah, just go within your soul
and there's deep harmony in there.
It's like a little trick.
Yeah.
Mom discovers one cheap trick.
Yeah.
Everyone hates her or whatever, yeah.
Yeah.
But he's describing the what
and not the how, somehow.
Where it's just oh yeah, just go inside.
That's a good point.
And blissful harmony is there, and I
think most people find, I mean what he's
describing is something like meditation,
and most people I know who have done
meditation find it very hard at first.
It's not, the how is the whole process.
And not even at first.
It's always hard.
Yeah.
It's just.
Just continues to be hard.
Yeah.
And it's a process of yeah, dealing with
that hardness is the thing basically.
And for him, it just sounds like
it's the snap of the fingers.
Oh yeah.
Just like these idiots going to the beach.
Just go inside yourself for one
second and you'll get the same effect.
But I guess, interesting.
So do you agree that you should just
cultivate your ability to go inside
yourself as the solution to these
problems or that it's okay to get
away from it all to the country,
to the beach, to the mountains?
I I think it's okay to go to
the beach or the mountains.
Yeah.
But I think it's probably possible
to think that and agree with him
here that you also have other forms
of retreat or escape or whatever
else that you can cultivate that
are available to you at a moment's
notice and don't require any planning.
Yeah, I part ways with him.
I'm looking down upon people
who travel or whatever.
I guess he says a quick visit
should be enough to ward off all
missing word and send you back
ready to face what awaits you.
That...
So he's advocating for long
weekend and on the beach.
Oh, you think so?
That's how I read it.
I read this as...
Oh, a quick visit to your inner self.
Yes.
That's how I read it.
Certainly.
Oh my gosh, you're right.
So keep getting away from
it all like dash like that.
Okay.
You're right.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
So he's saying, the language he
uses he uses the word idiotic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
To describe these people.
I think what he's implying
though, too, that we're not
really engaging with is that.
That these people who go to the
beach or the mountains fail to
actually get away from it all.
Even though they've relocated
themselves geographically, their
problems follow them there or whatever.
And so it's, it doesn't work, which
is why he's calling it idiotic.
And he says what you actually
need to do to deal with your
real problems is meditate.
Or whatever.
Yeah.
I mean it seems like there's truth there.
Seems like a more nuanced issue.
Yeah.
I disagree with the notion
that it's one or the other.
Yeah.
But, I think it's a valid point to
say, geographic relocation is not
the same thing as solving problems.
Solving your problems.
Yeah.
I think that's fair.
Yeah.
Marcus.
Idiotic feels harsh.
Okay let's pick up with this entry
where he is still listing the
possibilities about what you might
be complaining about, basically.
Or is it your body?
Yeah.
Okay.
Keep in mind that when the mind detaches
itself and realizes its own nature, it no
longer has anything to do with ordinary
life, the rough and the smooth either one.
And remember all you've been taught
and accepted about pain and pleasure.
Or is it your reputation
that's bothering you?
But look at how soon we're all forgotten.
The abyss of endless time
that swallows it all.
The emptiness of all
those applauding hands.
The people who praise us, how
capricious they are, how arbitrary.
And the tiny region in
which it all takes place.
The whole Earth is a point in
space, and most of it uninhabited.
How many people there will be
to admire you, and who they are.
So keep this refuge in mind.
The back roads of yourself.
Above all, no strain and no stress.
There you go.
Be straightforward.
Look at things like a man, like a human
being, like a citizen, like a mortal.
And among the things
you turn to, these two.
One, that things have no hold on the soul.
They stand there unmoving outside it.
Disturbance comes only from
within, from our own perceptions.
Two, that everything you will
soon Everything will soon
alter and cease to exist.
Think of how many changes
you've already seen.
And this is in quotes.
The world is nothing but change.
Our life is only perception.
Okay, we're back to what strikes me as
slightly nihilistic Marcus here, where
sometimes in service of his point, he goes
so far as to basically say, Life's stupid
and short and pointless, so who cares?
The whole earth is a point in space.
Yep.
Yeah.
Most of it uninhabited.
How did he, he didn't know that?
This is all just did Marcus write this?
Does he know that most of
the earth is uninhabited?
Yeah.
How does he even know what the earth is?
Or I guess he thinks it's a
flat thing held up by turtles.
I actually don't know how
it's embarrassing how little
world history I know that the
earth was round at this point?
I think they might have.
Didn't like Greek
geometers figure that out?
I agree that they can't have known
that the earth was mostly uninhabited.
But I think they knew that the
earth was round and maybe mostly
covered with oceans, there's a decent
guess that it's mostly uninhabited.
I guess we could have done this
thing where we knew it and then
forgot it, and then learned it again.
I think that is the claim, actually.
I see.
As soon as you master trigonometry,
you can figure out the earth is
round and how big it is, basically.
So advanced.
Yeah, they're clever guys.
So I don't, whether or not Mark is a,
how much of that Mark is really new, IDK.
Yeah.
No, but you're right, so he
goes back to nihilism, but
it's in service of his, yeah.
He deploys nihilism as like
a, since everything is short
and pointless and stupid.
Yeah.
And you are just a speck of dust.
Live according to.
What's in your spirit and quit worrying
about all your complaints because In
the scheme of things they don't matter.
These are just strategies to help you with
meditation, basically Yeah so the thought
is The answer isn't to isolate yourself.
It's to go within and Keep your mouth
shut and Determine what's bothering you.
Yeah, I think he's implying that
Whatever's bothering you isn't actually
a problem because your soul is immovable.
Probably one of the, whatever's
bothering you can be boiled down to
one of the things I have just listed.
And none of those are really things
to worry about because they're all
the normal workings of the world.
And if you just, yeah, adhere to
what's in your soul, then none
of them should really worry you.
Yeah.
This is good for, if your job is to...
Senior, is a senior military
position where you need to stay
in your post and do the work.
This is a good chapter to read,
like you can't have all these like
commanders in the military going
to their beach houses in Hawaii.
That's true.
Although it is scary, I think, to
have them in such close proximity to
this much what feels like nihilism.
Eh, it doesn't really matter.
It's all just, yeah.
Everything passes.
Yeah.
You kill a couple of people
who shouldn't have died, things
that have no hold on the soul.
It seems like, in some ways, the
reverence for life here is pretty low.
That might be a good thing, if
you're a general in the military.
Yeah.
That's the point.
If you're tasked to drop
the bomb on Nagasaki...
Remember that things
have no hold on the soul.
Boy, I don't know.
I wish those people would.
Yeah.
Yeah, I yeah.
I guess this feels like earlier
in the book where I have some
distance from Marcus a little bit
because I'm so sensitive to the,
what feels like uncaringness.
Yeah.
That he has at times.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number four.
If thought is something we share, then so
is reason, what makes us reasoning beings.
If so, then the reason that tells us what
to do and what not to do is also shared.
And if so, we share a common law.
And thus are fellow citizens.
And fellow citizens of...
something.
What?
And in that case, our
state must be the world.
What other entity could
all of humanity belong to?
And from it, from this state that we
share, come thought and reason and law.
Where else could they come from?
The earth that composes me derives from
earth, the water from some other element,
the air from its own source, the heat
and fire from theirs, since nothing
comes from nothing or returns to it.
So thought must derive from
somewhere else as well.
Wow.
Very metaphysical.
Marcus here, all of a
sudden doing pH like yeah.
Doing philosophy in the
sense of logical statement.
Logical statement, syllogism,
follow up corollary.
Yeah.
So what do mean, I don't know
if I follow, is . I, okay.
I think I can understand the beginning.
We all seem to think.
And reason is this UN thing that underpins
how we all think and we all share.
Yep.
So logic.
Okay.
And reason what it is something
that tells us what to do.
Yeah.
And another way of articulating a
common shared thing that we have
that tells us all what to do is law.
Sure.
So we share law, but if we share
law, that means we're citizens,
. Because we live under a shared law.
So logic unites us all, yeah.
Reason unites us all.
Reason is like the shared citizenship
of humanity, or something like that.
That it makes us all the same.
And part of the same thing.
And everything comes from something.
Yes, the part at the end about
the elements is where I get lost.
So thought must also come from something.
Yeah, here I have to, I mean
that everything comes from
something as an assumption here.
We I guess we just have that.
I think that's pretty sound.
Nothing comes from nothing.
That's very, isn't that I guess
that's Newtonian except for the
theory about how the universe
came into existence to begin with.
We think that we don't, we
can't answer that question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, this is, this, he's got this whole,
he did the an all the arguments of seeing
the world as a city in the last section.
So he seems to be circling this concept
of is it, is this barbarian stuff?
Is he like dealing with how to...
Oh, that's interesting.
How to think about the
people he's fighting?
Why else would he be writing about this?
For the first couple paragraphs,
yes, I think that makes sense.
That oh, we should view all other
thinking beings as our fellow citizens.
And then the end.
I still, that last sentence.
Usually I feel like he arrives at
a point by the end of these things.
And he says, so thought must
derive from somewhere else as well.
I don't know what.
Moving on.
Yeah, okay huh.
Yeah.
But I can't tell if he thinks he's
figured out where it's derived from, or
if he's saying, but IDK what that is.
I can follow him, as far as
thought must come from somewhere.
Comes from reason?
Okay.
And reason is what unites us all?
But he starts with, if
thought is something we share.
Then so is reason.
That sentence also makes no sense.
It feels circular to me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Weird one.
You're he's dipping his toes in what
feels like it's a humanitarianism or
something and more straight up like
philosophy, recognizable philosophy as
we would think of it in the modern day.
That's true.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number five, death, something
like birth, a natural mystery
elements that split and recombine.
Not an embarrassing thing.
Not an offense to reason or our nature.
Period.
Cool.
Yeah.
He's describing death.
As a normal thing.
It's not, I like that not
an embarrassing thing.
It's like one of those classic
Say, you say a thing that makes
it obvious what you really think.
I would be so embarrassed to die.
He's telling on himself.
Yeah.
Okay, yeah, he's Another way of again,
but he's definitely thinking about death.
Yeah, and he needs some comfort that
it's yeah It's gonna be fine and not too
bad if he dies not an offense to reason.
Yeah, it's interesting that he's worried
about Embarrassment like it's usually
the last thing on his mind in general.
He doesn't sure like
that's true Embarrassed?
Yeah, who would he be
embarrassed in front of to die?
Would you be?
Yeah.
Oh, I guess if he gets killed
in battle I say okay, then that
would be like an embarrassment and
insufficiently noble end for him.
Yeah It would be funny just i'd be so
embarrassed to just die right now Yeah,
it matters a little once you're dead.
Yeah, exactly Yeah.
Yeah.
That is funny.
That is a funny idea.
It feels almost, yeah, like he's
a teenager, or yes, very worried
all of a sudden about what everyone
thinks about him in a way that he
usually seems to give less of a shit
than anyone I've ever thought of.
Yeah.
Huh.
I follow contradictions, this guy.
Number six.
That sort of person is bound to do that.
You might as well resent a
fig tree for secreting juice.
Anyway, before very long
you'll both be dead.
Dead and soon forgotten.
. Wow.
Who was he referring to?
That sort of person.
I love it.
The whole book.
The whole book just boiled
down and did three sentence
You must have very helpful, Marcus.
Yes.
That sort person you must of fix.
Okay, , you might as well as he said, yes,
people are the way they are or whatever.
What dying all the time.
Or no, I think he's just saying that
you can get mad at people just okay.
Yeah, just full stop.
New concept.
There's a person that you're upset
at and they're bound to do that.
Yes.
You might as well resent.
A fig tree.
Yes, because it's just what they do.
And they'll be dead anyways.
Yeah, who gives a shit?
You're both gonna be dead so soon.
Okay, great.
Quit being petty.
People are just like that.
They're dumbasses.
They're just, the things they do
are secreting juice, essentially.
Alright, thanks Marcus.
This one again is very much
feels like nihilism to me.
Okay.
Okay.
Number seven.
Choose not to be harmed,
and you won't feel harmed.
Classic Marcus.
Don't feel harmed, and you haven't been.
Yeah, okay.
This one is hard to live with too, Marcus.
Sometimes people are harmed.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's not, I guess maybe there's
something you can choose to...
It's so annoying to,
to complain to Marcus.
Yeah, imagine something bad actually
happens to you and he says just
choose not to be harmed by this.
Yeah.
This one doesn't work for me.
I may, to meet him more than halfway.
There's a way to don't play the
victim is what he's saying here.
Yeah.
Okay, number eight.
We're on a string of very short
bullet points from Marcus.
Maybe he was busy.
Eight.
It can ruin your life only
if it ruins your character.
Otherwise it cannot
harm you inside or out.
Yeah.
Classic.
Same sentiment as before, I think.
You are your own master.
Number nine.
It was for the best.
So nature had no choice but to do it.
Boy, what is Marcus going through?
Something is happening.
Something's going on, yeah.
Something that he really cannot
commit even a single detail about.
It just has to be it and that.
Okay, so starting at six,
someone did something to him
that could have harmed him.
Could have ruined his life,
but it was for the best.
Yeah, it's all extremely abstract.
Yeah, and it all feels like
Reflexive comfort for something that
happened that he didn't really like.
Yeah.
But What exactly that was, hard to say.
Wait, book four.
Book four, a little tougher.
I, yeah, I'm...
You know there's nine books on this?
I think it's more than that, you'll find.
Oh yeah?
I think it's like...
There's twelve, oh
there's twelve books, wow.
Yes, we are just over a quarter of
the way now through this exercise.
Okay.
I, I think the thing that
we're learning is that this is,
it's not a traditional text.
No, it's not.
It doesn't change.
It doesn't have a narrative.
It doesn't change.
It doesn't have a narrative arc the
way we're all accustomed to with books.
And so this podcast is very much about
what we bring to this text every week.
So we'll have something new
to bring to it next week.
Thanks, Tom.
All right.
Bye.
Bye.