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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Brian (00:01.143)
Hello and welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. I'm your host Brian Mavis and I usually have my co-host with me today but I'm soloing it because we have two guests today. One is Dr. John DiGarmo who's been on the podcast before. John is a founder of the Foster Care Initiative and he and his wife have fostered more than 65 kids, slacker, and provided a...
training for foster agencies and legal teams and foster families around the world. And our new guest today is Jen Lilly. And Jen is an award-winning actress, singer, producer, and longtime advocate for children in foster care. She has starred in numerous films and television series, including Days of Our Lives, The Artist, and dozens of family-friendly movies. And beyond the screen, and that's why she's here today,
Gin has fostered and adopted children through the Los Angeles County system. You too? Welcome. Love having you. So, okay, so you two are long time friends. So let's just start there. Like, how'd you guys meet?
Jen Lilley (01:03.505)
Yeah, thank you so much.
Dr. John DeGarmo (01:03.608)
Thank you so much.
Jen Lilley (01:10.687)
Well, long time because we met during the pandemic. know, the pandemic years, I think, equal like a thousand years.
Brian (01:16.183)
Oh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, that 10 years, that was 2020.
Jen Lilley (01:23.519)
The years of 2020 and then five years. So we have known each other 15 years now. We've known each other six years. And we met because we were both on a CNN interview together about how the pandemic was going to impact children in foster care. know, that was one of the biggest concerns that these children would be at home with their abusers and what would the impact of that be. And so I thought Dr. John DeGarmo.
Brian (01:26.913)
Uh-huh.
Dr. John DeGarmo (01:28.526)
Ha
Brian (01:40.823)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (01:51.995)
was as impressive as he is. And at the time I had a podcast called Fostering Hope with Jen Lilly. And I own the episodes and I'm currently trying to figure out how to get it back up, not to resume it, but just it was such a wealth of knowledge, all of the episodes. So I trepidatiously reached out to Dr. John DiGarmo because I was like, this guy is so intimidating and he's such a pro. And he said yes. And he became one of my favorite guests on the show. And then we ended up
Brian (02:05.559)
Hmm
Brian (02:20.587)
Jen Lilley (02:21.887)
lobbying Congress together across political aisle. We had a lot of wonderful feedback from both parties to stop premature reunification, which is the problem that happens. So broad strokes of that is in California, when you're going to reunite the child with their family, which obviously is the goal of foster care, California does that one thing right.
don't just hand the child back to the parents immediately. There's a gradual process of, you know, the child does, from monitored visits to unmonitored visits to one overnight visit to maybe weekends. And I and Dr. John agrees, we think that's very good model because parenting is stressful, even if you have the tools and your tool belt is good, extremely stressful. And so,
Brian (03:11.541)
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah
Jen Lilley (03:17.331)
You know, these are parents that have already struggled with parenting effectively and parenting in a safe way. And so when you throw the child back into the home immediately and the parent maybe hasn't fully gotten their bearings back, it's extremely difficult. So we had a lot of success doing that. And then we quickly realized, however, that while passing laws is wonderful, there are a lot of things that happen when you write bills and laws, and there are a lot of things slipped into your bills that you do not want there that you are not for.
Brian (03:28.203)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (03:43.532)
Thank
Brian (03:43.797)
Hmm
Jen Lilley (03:47.103)
And so we decided instead to try to replicate ourselves and Dr. John asked me for about two years to write a book with him. He's an author. He's written what 16 books, Dr. John.
Dr. John DeGarmo (04:01.614)
13. 13.
Jen Lilley (04:02.847)
13, 16 in my mind. So he's written 13 books. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully the next year not all with me, but yeah. So he asked me to write a book with him and I was like, why would you want to do that? And here we are.
Brian (04:05.975)
The three of them are pretty thick, so yeah.
Brian (04:16.855)
All right, okay. So we're to talk about that book in a little bit. But before we do, I love for both of you to share your personal, your own fostering and adoption journey. like, how'd that happen?
Jen Lilley (04:34.397)
Dr. John, you go first.
Dr. John DeGarmo (04:35.822)
Sure, sure. Thanks for asking. Thanks, Jen. You know, I never wanted to be a foster parent. I believe the myths and misconceptions that were associated with foster care that the kids are bad kids and foster parents are weird people. And one of those is true. Foster parents are weird people. It's a very different, unique lifestyle. It's not a job, a lifestyle. A lifestyle full of sacrifices that most don't understand or appreciate. So I didn't want to do it, but, you know, it was 30 years ago this year.
Brian (04:51.83)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (05:02.99)
that our first child died of a condition called antisephilia, or something else, an anacathletic condition where the brain or skull doesn't truly form. And my wife was in labor for 92 hours. And at that point, I turned my back on a lot of things, including my faith. I was just filled with lot of anger. And then we were living in Australia at the time. And then years later, a few years later, we moved to Georgia, Atlanta. We had never been to Georgia, but we flew into Atlanta with three-week-old baby.
Brian (05:12.919)
Hmm.
Brian (05:17.239)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (05:30.208)
At that time, I started teaching in a very, very rural high school setting in middle Georgia. And two things happened that led my wife and I become foster parents. The first was I had so many kids coming into my classroom who had issues of attendance, behavior, academics. And I kept asking, why? Why in this rural town? And I met a lot of their birth parents and I recognized, know what starts in the home? And at that time, I had a senior who was pregnant with triplets. And I recognized that neither her nor the father figure were any shape.
And the second thing, and he shaped Take Care of the Kids. And the second thing that happened was in the late 90s and the early 2000s in this small rural town called Putnam County, there was at that time the largest child sex trafficking ring in America happening. was led by a gentleman who called himself Dr. Malik High York. He had this Nawabian nation. Imagine driving down a dirt road and seeing these large pyramids out of nowhere. Well, he was eventually arrested in early 2000s.
for bringing over a thousand children over state lines for trafficking. And a lot of those kids were in my classroom, victims of my classroom. So I said to my wife, hey, you we lost our first child. We have three healthy children at this point. How come, and I got this child in the classroom who was pregnant with triplets. What can we do? What can we do to help these, help more children? So that led to fostering over 50 plus kids. That led to adopting three of them. And we've actually experienced four failed adoptions at the same time. And, you know, again, I never planned on doing this, but God's,
by the grace of God, I have been blessed. Every child that's come through my home has made me a better person in some way. And while it's been the most challenging thing I've done, it's also been the most rewarding thing I've done.
Brian (07:06.207)
Yeah, that's for sure. Jen, tell us your story.
Jen Lilley (07:11.615)
well, growing up, my parents were kind of unofficial foster parents, so they weren't licensed because my dad was a judge and my mom was a worked at a nonprofit for women and children. And so they didn't want to appear biased. but that didn't stop them from wanting to help people. So there were often people living in our home who were not, you know, relatives. And so the idea of, and the seeds of empathy were planted in me from a very young age. And then, and so
Brian (07:17.579)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (07:41.361)
We had even some kids that lived in the house that I would call them like my foster siblings. Once I was in The Artist in 2011, which was a movie that was nominated for 10 Academy Awards and won five, including Best Picture and General Hospital, I got a publicist. So was like, now you're an up and coming actor and you need to hire a publicist. I was really praying about to the Lord, was like,
what subjects do you want me to talk about, Father? And I was really into the water crisis at the time, which is a really wonderful cause. mean, there's a solution. The basic premise is that unclean drinking water kills more people every year than AIDS, worm, and malaria combined. So it's an important issue, but it's an issue that has a ton of celebrities already talking about it. So I was in prayer, and I was like, Lord, what do you want to talk about? And he was like, well, you need to...
Brian (08:18.379)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (08:24.94)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (08:32.683)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (08:37.567)
do something that's in your own neighborhood. And eventually I found out about human trafficking and child sexually explicit material. And I was horrified by it. I my mom, is what I want to talk about. And she was like, you cannot talk about this in Hollywood. Now, of course, at the time I didn't understand why. was like, why not? Like nobody's talking about it. Like we've got to talk about this. So I started talking about, yeah, human trafficking. And, you know, at the time it was called Charlie pornography, but now we call
Brian (08:53.973)
enough cheese
Brian (09:03.255)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (09:07.531)
at child sexually explicit material because that implies consent otherwise and these children are not consenting. And I was reached out to my publicist was Child Help reached out to my publicist. Child Help is one of the longest and largest running nonprofits for child abuse prevention, neglect and the aftermath. And they just do a tremendous job. mean, they're 1-800-4-A-CHILD hotline. They've been around for
over 60 years, they've rescued 14 million US children. I became an advocate, a celebrity ambassador for them. And they have a program called Special Friends, which is kind of like Big Brothers, Big Sisters. And my husband and I mentored several children and there was one in particular we fell in love with. actually, we're going to her high school graduation next week. She's doing very well. She finally got reunited with her grandmother and she's making straight A's and we're so proud of her.
Brian (09:45.473)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (10:02.071)
but at the time she was facing reunification with her mother, which would have been death. I mean, her, her mom made it very clear. If I get you back, I'm going to drop you off in the desert. And you know, that's it. She went missing for three years. I mean, it was this whole saga and we got licensed very rapidly to try to foster and adopt her. That did not work out. I talk about it in the book, but then we got my son, Caden. So that's kind of my trajectory in a nutshell.
Brian (10:21.387)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (10:29.321)
Okay, so has you have obviously more of a public persona than most people and would you say, like said, you shared a little bit about you thought you were going to be talking about this, you know, don't know why it's an issue. When you find yourself advocating for kids in foster care, are you, what kind of reception are you getting on that? Or people are like,
Jen Lilley (10:39.038)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (10:39.82)
you
Brian (10:58.795)
you know, like Dr. John said, like how those are bad kids or are that people, you know, intrigued. Yeah. The reason I ask it, it tends like when you think about like, if you were just going man on the street and interview and just said, tell me what comes to mind when you think about social wounds, people would say homelessness, addiction, mental health, trafficking. They won't say foster care. So.
Jen Lilley (11:20.627)
Yes. Right.
Brian (11:24.824)
Tell me what it's been like when you guys advocate. Like what kind of reception are you getting?
Jen Lilley (11:30.205)
I think people are very receptive to it. They just don't know. They're just ignorant. And I think that once you bring sunlight to this issue, people do care. Because I think no matter what religious background you come from or socioeconomic background you come from or political aisle you come from, most people, most Americans, and most people on the globe, but like most people.
value children. I don't think that most people think that children should be trafficked or think that, you know, child abuse is a good thing. They just have myths and misconceptions surrounding it. And so I think that when you shed light on the issue, it does open people up to thinking of the possibility of, well, maybe I could get involved. And, you know, something that Dr. John and I talk about a lot in the book is not everyone's called to foster.
Brian (11:56.631)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (12:18.551)
and
Jen Lilley (12:23.357)
but everyone's called to foster care. So there are practical ways that we can use our God-given gifts and talents in order to make a lasting impact on these children's lives. For example, Brian, you're having us on your show. By doing that, you're using your God-given gift of hosting.
to spread sunlight on the issue. That's huge. That's makes a bigger impact than you realize. And then we talk about, you know, if you're a mechanic, you might think, well, what does that have to do with foster care? Well, maybe you could teach children foster care how to change a tire. Maybe you could do free oil changes for, you know, teens in foster care or parents who are in foster care or.
you know, if you're a hairdresser, what does it look like if you open your salon in the spring or in the fall for homecoming and prom to, you know, give these girls the updo that they can't afford and, you know, that they've never, that's never been afforded to them. You know, these are small ways that we can practically get involved. And so I think that when you make it accessible and you make it relatable, people are very receptive to it.
Brian (13:25.387)
Yeah, okay. Let's.
Dr. John DeGarmo (13:26.478)
I believe the phrase awareness equals advocacy. As Jen said, and we all know not everybody can be a foster parent, but everybody can help in some way. And so when we share these stories about being foster parents or when we bring awareness to these children, many people say, I had no idea. How can I help? What can I do to a foster parent? That's what I've experienced over the years.
Jen Lilley (13:30.291)
Mm.
Jen Lilley (13:42.835)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (13:42.891)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (13:48.96)
All right, so let's camp out a little bit more on your guys' book. So it's set to release May 5th. it was, Dr. John, it was your idea to... You're like, I didn't want to write a book. Okay. So tell us the title. Tell us kind of what's the promise of the book. And you guys walk through it for us.
Jen Lilley (14:00.767)
Absolutely.
Dr. John DeGarmo (14:06.019)
you
Dr. John DeGarmo (14:17.334)
Well, it is called called to foster and I you know, I when I finished my 12th book a couple years ago
Brian (14:21.323)
But with a question mark, right? Call to foster?
Jen Lilley (14:22.247)
Yeah, called to foster an honest guy.
Dr. John DeGarmo (14:30.798)
Yeah, yeah. I, you know, when I finished my 12th book, I thought, okay, I'm done. I don't want to, I was burned out a little bit. 12 books in maybe eight years. So I thought, you I'm done. But then I, but then the more I got to know Jen, I thought, you know what? I love working with Jen. She's a dear friend. She's got the same heart as I do. She's got the same work commitment that I do, we're workaholics. This is, there's no better person to write a book about foster parenting
Jen Lilley (14:54.81)
I'm sorry.
Dr. John DeGarmo (15:00.418)
than Jen and I thought, well, this can come in from two different perspectives. But from two different perspectives, from a foster mother, from a mother aspect and from a father aspect and somebody who was an expert, if you will, and somebody who was in the...
Jen Lilley (15:04.317)
I thought he was crazy. Keep going.
Brian (15:12.439)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (15:19.461)
Not an expert.
Brian (15:20.695)
So here's what somebody has to say who doesn't know much. Here we go.
Jen Lilley (15:27.071)
Yeah, it's like Dr. John's so amazing and brings all the clinical and of course the experience too, but like he brings the PhD to it and then I bring the relatability that's like, I'm a kid, I love myself.
Dr. John DeGarmo (15:27.63)
And it's
Brian (15:34.027)
Uh-huh.
Brian (15:38.463)
Yeah, bring the heart. Well, no, that, mean, and again, that, I mean, that just, yeah, that obviously is needed. People need to feel it. I mean, I talk about like, it's not just about turning heads towards this issue. It's turning, turning hearts towards it.
Jen Lilley (15:46.183)
I'm in, yeah.
Jen Lilley (15:51.805)
If this were a Shakespearean, go ahead.
Dr. John DeGarmo (15:51.95)
two different voices, two different perspectives.
Brian (15:53.887)
Yeah.
Jen Lilley (15:57.213)
Yeah, I was gonna say, this is a Shakespearean play. I'm the Mercutio character. I bring the comedic relief, I think.
Brian (16:03.947)
Thanks for explaining your cultural reference because I was like, I don't know what that means. So your reference dumb and dumber, I'm tracking with you. So tell me who should read this book?
Jen Lilley (16:10.138)
Hello. Sorry.
Dr. John DeGarmo (16:11.256)
He should make
Jen Lilley (16:14.355)
Yeah, great.
Dr. John DeGarmo (16:14.584)
Romeo Jr.
Jen Lilley (16:22.443)
I think anybody that's interested in foster care and isn't sure if they want to do it should read the book. And I also really think that maybe social workers should read the book because they experience as much burnout as foster parents. And we really honor social workers. And I also think anybody that's already in foster care should read the book because burnout is a real thing. And I think that
Brian (16:33.289)
really?
Dr. John DeGarmo (16:34.648)
Yes.
Jen Lilley (16:47.813)
it will make them feel like they can keep going, you know, that they're not alone because it, foster care is such a process. And then we talk about that in the book. mean, but the truth is, it's so different than normal parenting. say normal. It's just like,
If you have not experienced a baby or a child that has had experienced severe trauma or drug, what am I trying to say? Was introduced to drugs or was impacted by drugs in the uterus? I'm trying to think like while the mom was pregnant, my words are not coming. So sorry. Again, this what you can expect from me in the book. I'm just kidding.
Brian (17:22.601)
Mm-hmm. Exposed. Mm-hmm.
Brian (17:32.951)
Mhmm.
Jen Lilley (17:34.811)
If you haven't experienced that and then you want to apply normal parenting, it's very isolating. It's very lonely. It makes you feel like you're failing all the time. It's like, honestly, your parenting style might work for a child who's never experienced trauma. But if I try to do X, like this is how they react. So it's a hard road to go at if you don't have community. If you have community,
Brian (17:40.599)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (18:01.875)
Then it's like, can laugh, you know, you can laugh instead of cry. And so I think it's for people who are already fostering. think it's for people who maybe have a relative who's fostering because hopefully they'll feel convicted. say that with the most kindness, but I think it'll teach you how to support your relative or friend who's in foster care. Cause it is hard.
Brian (18:14.081)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (18:27.95)
Absolutely. Juvenile judges, CASAs, social workers, foster parents, old and new, people considering being foster parents. love what Jen said, the relatives or friends to have a better understanding. You know, I believe truly that the real pandemic has not been a virus, it's mental health. And we're in a mental health crisis and our children are at the forefront of that. And so many of today's foster parents are experiencing what we call
Jen Lilley (18:50.623)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (18:58.158)
compassion fatigue or secondary traumatic stress. And I love that term compassion fatigue, fatigue, exhaustion from compassion, from caring, exhaustion from caring. So this is a book that will, you know, I think really help encourage, inspire and educate those who are caring for children in crisis in some fashion.
Jen Lilley (19:18.591)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (19:19.807)
Okay, so Jen, you admittedly said brought more of kind of the heart to this. Can you think of a story from the book that kind of exemplifies what you brought to this project?
Jen Lilley (19:39.271)
Sure, I can think of two different ones. First, I talk about a term that I have heard before. So it's not a Jen Lilly original, but it's called, I call it middle mom. And so I talk about how to navigate middle mom. And then I do it in a comedic way, right? Where I'll just say like middle mom as defined by the very official Jen Lilly dictionary, you know, proper noun, a mom who's navigating.
Brian (19:42.496)
Okay.
Brian (19:51.329)
Okay.
Jen Lilley (20:05.981)
you know, how to parent and care for a child that's been placed in her home who has no parental rights, who must expertly navigate, you know, the fine line of, you know, caring for the child in their need, rooting for the birth mother at the same time, having to protect the child from that bioparent's poor decisions. And then I go into examples about how I used to cry. I mean, every time,
Brian (20:13.355)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (20:22.741)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (20:27.371)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (20:32.895)
on the way home from the visitations, having to, you know, have that lump in your throat where you're driving home and, you're trying to make sure the child's not perceiving like how upset you are. it's like navigating that. And then also I can think of another story of, mean, have gut wrenching stories in there. I, I lay myself bare in there. And then like another comical moment was, you know, there was a time when my son Caden
Brian (20:43.147)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (20:58.591)
For anybody who's a believer, in the Bible there's this passage that says you're earning crowns in heaven when you do good things. And there was a really funny and horrific moment in my early foster care journey where my son, Caden, was very sick. I ended up having to take him to the ER, but he was, like every 30 minutes, just like four bouts of vomit, and they would land.
Brian (21:21.141)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (21:21.947)
all over me and then at the very end it was just like diarrhea like all over my hand all down my arm I slipped in it and fell in it and I remember sitting on my bathroom tile covered in vomit and diarrhea as a celebrity right knowing I'm gonna have to take my son into the ER like like looking like this you know with people being like are you the girl from yeah it's me and I remember sitting in in the fluids on my floor and
Brian (21:28.681)
You
Brian (21:37.109)
Yeah.
Brian (21:44.609)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (21:50.629)
started, I just started laughing like maniacally and my husband was like, what? And I said, you know, when the Bible says earning crowns in heaven, this is beyond what I signed up for. It's like, I have moments that are like, look, you know, I've been there, you'll go there. It's totally worth it. It is hard. So it's an honest guide to getting started. You know, it's hard.
Dr. John DeGarmo (22:02.926)
you
Brian (22:03.221)
Yeah.
Brian (22:16.511)
Yeah, think, yeah, that's the subtitle, An Honest Guide. Yeah. And even when you tell people it's going to be hard, it's always harder than they thought it was going to be.
Jen Lilley (22:20.656)
We really don't hold back.
Dr. John DeGarmo (22:28.042)
Oh, 100%, 100%. You know, when I went through training, just like all of us, my wife had a degree in psychology at the time. I was a high school teacher. had three kids lost their first child, traveled the world. I thought I was ready. I thought I was so ready for this. How hard can this be? And our first placement was a 1030 at night for two little girls. And by 1050 at night, 20 minutes later, I recognized, oh my gosh, what is going on? My training did not prepare me for this whatsoever.
Brian (22:39.893)
Mmm. Yeah.
Jen Lilley (22:53.737)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (22:54.959)
It is, it is again, the most challenging thing I've done, but the most rewarding thing.
Jen Lilley (22:58.91)
Yes.
Brian (22:59.947)
Yeah. So let's talk about the person right now who they are saying, you know what? I do think I'm called a foster. What would you tell them if they came up to you today and just said, you know what? I think I'm called a foster. What would you hope they would do next?
Dr. John DeGarmo (23:21.102)
Well, I often tell people who ask me that question all the time. say, the first thing you need to do is you need to talk about it with your spouse, your partner, and then with your family, because it's a full commitment. You know, I know Jen echoes the same thing. When I say I couldn't do without my wife, it is 50-50. And at the same time, my wife and I rely on our children as well. It's a very much effort. So if one person wants to do it and the other person doesn't want to do it, you just can't do it.
Brian (23:32.94)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (23:38.609)
I think.
Brian (23:44.683)
Right.
Dr. John DeGarmo (23:50.626)
And the next thing you do is just, you know, when the family agrees to it, then you approach your child welfare agency and you sign up for training and then you get ready for a wild roller coaster of adventure and emotion.
Jen Lilley (24:03.941)
Yeah, and I would say, I completely echo that. And I would say, take a foster care orientation class. No one's going to force you to foster. There's no harm in taking one of those classes. But I write about this in the book, too. I I said to my husband when he didn't want to foster originally, and then he came around, which is very common. Like, there's usually one person that wants to do it, one person that doesn't. And that's OK. Like, we were there for sure. I mean, it took years for my husband to come on board.
Brian (24:14.327)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (24:24.268)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (24:29.217)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (24:34.043)
But I always said to him, like, I have a problem with you saying no to something when you don't know what you're saying no to. So you have to at least go to a class, get the information, and then decide. And it might be, hey, not for right now. Hey, I'm interested in this, not for right now. I think take an orientation class and just know that no one's pressuring you. But get more information after you get your spouse or family on board. And yeah, just get more information.
Brian (24:41.823)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (25:03.319)
Okay, so let's get real practical. Someone's saying, that's me. How do I find an orientation class?
Dr. John DeGarmo (25:10.914)
Well, can contact, you go online or do a search for your local foster parent agency, whether it's a state or private or a faith based organization. You just call up and you make that ask. And then when you go through that training and you finish and you become licensed, the next thing you need to do is join a local foster parent support group or associate of some kind. Because as Jen said earlier, it can be a very, very lonely road. The only person.
who truly understand what it's like being a foster parent is another foster parent. You know, you've got to have that support group to surround yourself and you can vent, can laugh, you can cry, you can share stories, but I think most importantly, you can learn from other people who have walked this very, very challenging, unique lifestyle.
Brian (25:44.533)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (25:59.399)
Yeah, and we have like in our book, I was double checking before I said this, we have charities in the back. We have every single DCFS, Department of Children and Family Services. Some states call it DHS, Department of Human Services, but agencies, you know, in all 50 states where you can get the information, like we have it all in here.
And yeah, I do completely agree with Dr. Don. That's something we really, we have a whole chapter dedicated to finding community and other like-minded foster parents. And I would imagine it's very similar to being a military spouse. know, people probably.
Brian (26:34.389)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (26:36.003)
It's like I pray to God I've never said something to my sister-in-law who's a military spouse that is well-meaning and hurt her feelings, you because people say things that are well-meaning and really hurt your feelings as a foster parent. But I can't comment on what it would be like to be a military wife or a military spouse. And I imagine they need other military families to relate to. I think it's the same thing in foster care.
Brian (26:42.337)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (26:47.799)
Yes.
Dr. John DeGarmo (26:59.406)
All
Brian (26:59.499)
Yeah, yeah, super important advice. So.
You know, there are a lot of people who, and Gin, you mentioned it, either they're in a family and they've got a spouse and kids, possibly kids, and they are feeling like they want to do it, but everybody else is not on board yet. And what would you guys say is like the most common expressed fears maybe that people have?
to say yes to this?
Jen Lilley (27:38.705)
I would say the most common myth I hear that drives me crazy is, I could never do foster care. I'd get too attached. And I always say, well, then that would make you an excellent foster parent. And that's what I talk about right from the get-go that's in my introduction, because it's like the truth is, children need your attachment more than you need to protect your heart.
Brian (27:47.777)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (27:48.056)
Yes.
Dr. John DeGarmo (28:02.094)
couldn't agree more. I was talking about this past weekend at a foster care event, I was saying, I hear all the time, Dr. John, I couldn't do what you do. It hurt too much to get the kids back. And my response is, that's exactly how it's supposed to be. These kids need us to love them so much. The kids in foster care, think need three things, stability, structure, and unconditional love. And so when they, and we need to, they need us to love them with so much, with all of our hearts, so that when they leave, for whatever reason it might be, and it could be a wonderful reason, for whatever reason it might be,
When they leave, our hearts break for these children. But we could be that first person who's ever had their heart break. We could be the first person who's ever cried over that child's heart. Give them that child a gift. So I tell people, well, that's what they need. They need us to have hearts. know, a foster parent's heart's like a quilt with patches all over it.
Jen Lilley (28:34.271)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (28:46.311)
Yeah.
Brian (28:50.849)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (28:51.551)
I will say I've heard of, but it's very rare. I've never met anyone personally who has regretted doing foster care. I know that that exists in some cases, but I would say that that is the exception and not the norm.
Even though it is painful, my heart has grown so much. I would not trade the experience for the world of the empathy and the, I mean, just the life education that I garnered from doing foster care. I'm a more empathetic person. I'm a more emotionally aware person. And I like that. Like I...
Brian (29:32.983)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (29:33.635)
I love being able to view people with a lens of love and empathy and not judgment or misunderstanding. I think it's worth it in every single way.
Brian (29:38.187)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (29:44.769)
So what would you guys say though? So we're, yeah, go ahead.
Dr. John DeGarmo (29:45.038)
you know.
I want to add to that. have, since I became a foster parent like Jen, I've become such an emotional cripple since I became a foster parent. My wife knows that I cannot, she cannot take me to a movie that has the name Nicholas Sparks Attack. I start crying immediately. You know, I watched one of Jen's movies recently and I was bawling. Yeah, bawling, absolutely. Yeah, I have learned to love so much more than I could ever imagine.
Brian (30:01.675)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (30:07.229)
Really?
Jen Lilley (30:10.963)
Yeah.
Dr. John DeGarmo (30:17.282)
being a foster parent. Greatest gift.
Brian (30:19.915)
Yeah. Well, so here's where I want to like also say, okay, what we're saying, I believe in too. We, I said, yes, we said yes to it too, but we're, the grownups. We're the adults. What happens when you have your own kids and you're saying, now we're asking our kids to have their hearts broken. Let's talk about that a little bit. What do you guys think about that?
Jen Lilley (30:32.765)
Yeah.
Dr. John DeGarmo (30:43.118)
Sure. So my oldest, my oldest is 28. I've got six kids of my own. And I would suggest to you that while none of them might become a foster parent, every single one of them has become so much more compassionate towards others. I believe that all of them will lead a life of serving others in some way. And I'm seeing it now with my three oldest, 28, 26, 25. They are quick.
Brian (31:09.975)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (31:12.056)
to stand up to bullying. They are quick to help someone who's in pain. And they have seen things, living with children in crisis in their home, they have seen things that most of their peers do not. So they have a very different perspective on the world, if you will. And as result, they are much more aware of pain and suffering and children in crisis. And again, they are so much more compassionate, I think, because of it.
Brian (31:14.156)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (31:40.671)
That was what I heard overwhelmingly on my podcast. We have not done that. We want to foster again. I have four kids and they're all under 10. So once they get a little older, we've talked about fostering a child who's maybe in elementary school. And my kids ask me all the time, like, when are we going to do that? I'm like, well, mommy feels like she's failing you for, so just give me a second. But every guest that I ever had on my podcast where they would talk about that, because that was something I was really interested in. Cause was like, you know, I don't have this experience. What is it like if you have siblings and all of them echoed exactly
Brian (31:40.726)
Yeah.
Brian (31:58.422)
Hehehehehe
Jen Lilley (32:10.645)
what Dr. John just said. And I'm a bro, I am a byproduct of somebody who grew up with other people outside of my house. It gave me huge seeds of empathy for other people and compassion. So I think it's great.
Brian (32:12.385)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (32:16.17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. John DeGarmo (32:25.71)
Now that's not to say that my kids have struggled. Sure, there have been times where they have struggled themselves. There have been times they've said, dad, know, this kid's driving me crazy. Or dad, I need a break. Or dad, my heart's broken. You know, when we get that call for a placement, one of the things I had to determine very, quickly is, is this a good fit for my family today? And is my family a good fit for this child today?
Brian (32:25.931)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Brian (32:35.617)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (32:50.988)
And sometimes my own family might be struggling. You know, we took quite a while off after we had a child in our home for two years that we were going to adopt, but that was ripped from our home within 22 hours. So we needed time to circle those problems and heal, if you will.
Brian (33:03.5)
Yeah.
Brian (33:08.833)
Yeah, when we were fostering our daughters were always the ones who, because my wife and I were like, every time we're like, okay, that's, we need a break or that's it. And our daughters would say, we're ready to dip go again. And then now one of my daughters, he's adopted three kids from foster care. So three of my grandchildren. Yeah. And they, and, both my daughters are amazing, super, like you said, compassionate, they're fighters, you know, for the kids. so, I think, you know, that.
impulse as a parent is to protect your children. And that's the right impulse. But also it's the right impulse to say, my kids need to know that there are kids who need us. And you have to be willing to have your kids experience some heartbreak so that their heart can get bigger. so I'm not saying it's easy. It isn't easy.
but it is valuable.
Jen Lilley (34:13.565)
Yeah, I want to say two things. One, in the book, we also talk about respite parents. know, respite is just an amazing thing that's available, theoretically available to foster parents, where it's a home that is licensed to foster, but they do not full-time foster. They are a break, so they will take the child for a weekend. Or if you have to go to a funeral or something, you don't get the court sign off to bring
Brian (34:18.827)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (34:27.55)
Right, right, right.
Jen Lilley (34:43.455)
the child who's in your care, they need to go to another home temporarily and respite homes are wonderful. And so something we say in the book is like, look, you think you want to foster, but you're not sure what I would do. What I think I would do. I think the next move that my family is going to make is becoming a respite home because we don't have nearly enough and they save other foster parents from burning out and be, um, I think I said a, so on that, you know, if I said one, then two.
Brian (35:02.177)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:06.039)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:11.293)
A,
Jen Lilley (35:13.44)
I do know how to speak grammatically correct, hopefully sometimes. But B,
Your home is the fun home, if you're respite. You're usually gonna get, and this is what I say in the book, like you're usually gonna get that kid in with their honeymoon period. You kinda get to be the cool aunt or uncle that like doesn't really have to do much consequence. You can take them to the restaurant or the trampoline park or ice cream or get pizza on a movie night. And then you place the child back with their other foster home. However, if you fall in love with a child or you fall in love with the process, guess what? You're already licensed. You can just move.
Brian (35:23.489)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (35:31.127)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (35:49.753)
into fostering and that is something that we have very few respite homes and we need them desperately. And the other thing that I wanted to say is, know, not that you have to be a Christian or a person of faith to foster and we talk about that in the book too, but Dr. John and I both are people of faith and so we can't really divorce ourselves from that perspective. And I will say that for me personally,
foster care grew my faith and my dependency and true surrendering to the Lord in a way that nothing else ever could because I had to surrender the idea that as much as I love these children God loves them more and when it's so painful, it's like forcing you to just live your life surrendered and that's what God wants of all of us. Whether we foster or not, if you're a believer in Jesus Christ, the call is
Dr. John DeGarmo (36:32.91)
Hmm.
Brian (36:34.103)
Mm.
Brian (36:40.723)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (36:45.481)
Take up your cross daily and die to yourself. It's actually much easier to do that if you've walked through foster care because it forces you to surrender your control because you don't have control, which was a wonderful experience for me. And that's something I write about a lot in the book. I mean, I'm a control freak. So foster care was very stretching. Yes. And I'm so grateful. Yeah.
Brian (36:57.451)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (37:03.921)
Yeah, that'll break that. let's share with our audience a time when you guys, like think of a moment when you said, you thought to yourself, I'm so glad I said yes to this.
Dr. John DeGarmo (37:21.4)
How many times? How many times? Three adoptions. I it over and over again. Four failed adoptions. Watching a child come into our home, a four-year-old girl. It's our fourth failed adoption, actually. She couldn't read. She couldn't speak a single word. that's all she could do. And no smiles, no laughter. And watching her learn how to smile or learn how to laugh the very first time. Magic. Watching a child.
Brian (37:25.143)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (37:50.138)
We had a sibling group of 10 year old, 9 year old, 7 year old, and the 10 year old and 7 year old clung to us the first day. But the 9 year old was very distant, very rough, tremendous issues of trust, and never said anything positive about my wife or I, ever. In he always complained. The day the three of them left, the 10 year old and 7 year old went up to my wife and give big hugs, and the 9 year old was off to the side. And then afterwards, a 9 year old went to my wife, and I thought, what's he going to say?
And he looked on the ground and he said, I love you, mommy. you know, I'm going to say what Jen said. My faith has grown so much since becoming a foster parent. You know, there have been when she said, up the cross. That's the last page of my book, Fostering Love, picking up that cross.
Brian (38:24.183)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (38:42.974)
I have learned again to learn to love so much more, including those birth parents who've done heinous crimes against their children. These are children of God and God loves them just as much as he loves us. Our sins are no bigger than theirs. And so I've learned to love these people who have committed heinous crimes against these children because these, many of them are suffering from their own pain, their own trauma, their own abuse. Two of the three have adopted a third generation foster. Their birth mom was prostituted at age nine who's, know. So,
Jen Lilley (38:48.989)
Yes. So, I'm excited to
Dr. John DeGarmo (39:13.01)
every child has been rewarded. Now, not to say there have been times I thought this child drive me crazy, you know, I have.
Jen Lilley (39:22.163)
But don't we say that for our own children? They're a different family. Can I send you somewhere?
Brian (39:22.347)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (39:25.474)
Yes, yes, You know, I'm wearing a weave right now. I pulled my hair out a long time ago. We had seven diapers at one time, which I think should be illegal in all 50 states. but, you know, there have been moments through every child where I thought, I'm so glad I've done this.
Brian (39:29.943)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (39:36.119)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (39:43.987)
Yeah.
Brian (39:46.165)
Yeah. Jen, how about you? A time when you thought, yeah, I'm so glad I said yes.
Jen Lilley (39:52.039)
I mean, many times as well. Of course, the first thing I thought of was adoption day. Adoption days are so wonderful. I think loving the boys, both my boys are half brothers. They have the same biological mom. And I think even loving her, even though it's a closed adoption, I'm in touch with her and seeing some...
Brian (39:55.979)
Hmm.
Jen Lilley (40:17.479)
positive decisions she's made because she encountered my family, you know, has been very rewarding.
We had a teen who was placed with us who we were not official foster parents to because she was aging out she was gonna be homeless and Now she ended up going to UCLA and she got a nursing degree and she's doing great or like You know my special friend that we didn't foster but we were her respite home For every spring break every birthday every holiday because her foster mom didn't want to care for her on holidays You know, she's graduating with straight A's and she's gonna go to college. These are moments where you're like, okay
Brian (40:32.983)
Mm-hmm.
Brian (40:55.787)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Lilley (40:55.839)
I am having a positive impact and that I think is, and just again, how tender hearted I am as well. I'm just so grateful because it's easy to be jaded.
Brian (40:59.436)
Ahem.
Brian (41:09.587)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I want you guys now to imagine like reaching through someone's phone who's listening right now and they're thinking I I'm feeling the nudge like I need I need to take the next step But I've got this not my stomach and I'm afraid to do it just Speak directly to them. What would you want to say?
Dr. John DeGarmo (41:37.612)
Well, I would say two things. You know, if you choose to become a foster parent and walk this road, know, years, if that child comes and live in your home years from now, they might not remember your name and years from now, they might not be your face. But years from now, they'll remember this that for a time in their life and maybe the only time in their life, somebody loved them.
And I would say that I can't change the world and none of us can change the world, Jen, or you, we can't change the world. But for these children that come to our home, their lives, their world has changed. Their world has changed by making these sacrifices to care for these children. know, at this very moment, right as the three of us are having this discussion, most likely within a mile of each of our homes, there's a child right now saying, somebody please help me.
Brian (42:32.631)
Hmm.
Jen, how about you, the person right now who's listening, who's feeling the nudge to do something, but has also got this knot in their stomach, what do you want to say to them?
Jen Lilley (42:45.047)
I would say I dare you to take an orientation class. You're allowed to say no, but I dare you to take an orientation class. Or sign up to be a mentor. You want to dip your foot in the pool, sign up to be a mentor. Do Big Brothers, Big Sisters. Do something where you're getting involved and you're having a touch point with children who are actually in foster care.
Brian (42:50.06)
Yeah.
Brian (43:10.207)
Yeah, just take the next step. You don't have to take the next 10 steps. Just take the next one. All right. So I always like to finish our podcast asking a question of our guests. And John, you actually anticipated this. question is, or it's to finish this sentence, what kids in foster care really need is, and you said already that they need structure, stability, and unconditional love.
Dr. John DeGarmo (43:38.595)
Yes.
Brian (43:38.685)
So Jen, you get to finish this off here. Finish this sentence. What kids in foster care really need is...
Jen Lilley (43:48.593)
love, stability, and what was the other one? Dr. John? Like I say in the book, Dr. John, can give us some real wisdom. Yeah, so that's what you can expect from the book is it's labeled Dr. John and then Jen. And so you'll get the good and then you'll get the relatable or make you feel better about yourself. Not that Dr. John's not relatable, but I got to grasp for something.
Brian (43:50.199)
Structure. Way not to contradict him.
Brian (44:02.657)
Hahahaha
Brian (44:11.287)
Yes.
And the kids do need that. And all those things are, know, when people think about structure and stability, sometimes they don't view it around the lens. That is love. You know, these kids, they're craving that because it feels safe to them. And many of them have never felt that before.
Jen Lilley (44:36.361)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (44:39.464)
That's what happened in 2020 when we locked children home at home. When you have 5 million kids experiencing domestic violence in the house every single day and they're going to school for reasons to escape, and one of them is escape abuse. Many of these kids are going online looking for love, looking for love. And there are those predators out there who are going to lure them in though with false hopes and false promises and they run away to trafficking. So you're right, these children are looking for someone to love them.
Brian (44:49.413)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. John DeGarmo (45:08.558)
I'm just going to say this about the book. This is a fun, fun book. It was fun to write. There are a lot of fun stories in there. provides some just incredible, fun, heartwarming stories. At the same time, I think it's a book that people are going to learn a lot about as well.
Brian (45:25.815)
Okay, so those of you who are interested in the book, you can find it on Amazon. You can pre-order it or it's released on May 5th. It's called, Call to Foster, An Honest Guy to Getting Started, Dr. John DiGarmo and Jen Lilly. All right, you too. Thank you so much. God bless you. Thanks for asking Jesus what he wants and then being brave in doing it.
Jen Lilley (45:52.081)
Absolutely.
Dr. John DeGarmo (45:53.302)
Amen, thank you. You too, thank you.
Brian (45:53.825)
God bless.