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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
209. Dean Broyles
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[00:00:00] Dean Broyles: What's happening in this context is very Orwellian. It's big brother of the [00:00:05] state saying, Hey, if you don't agree a hundred percent with our sexual orthodoxy, you're a [00:00:10] heretic and you need to be silenced and suppressed and really, [00:00:15] they bully you. Ironically, in the name of ending harassment and bullying.
[00:00:18] Dean Broyles: They're really bullying [00:00:20] and harassing a lot of religious folks. And I actually confronted a educator several [00:00:25] years ago and I said, you're trying to protect the L-G-B-T-Q identifying students from bullying [00:00:30] harassment. But what about all the other kids who have a different worldview? How do you think [00:00:35] they're feeling?
[00:00:35] Dean Broyles: Do they think they feel safe and welcome and accepted? Public schools, a [00:00:40] lot of 'em don't. It's a problem. It's a big problem that nobody's talking about. [00:00:45]
[00:00:45] Stephanie Winn: You must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:50]
[00:00:51] Stephanie Winn: Today my guest is Dean Broyles. He is a constitutional attorney [00:00:55] who serves as the president of the National Center for Law and Policy. He's an advocate for free [00:01:00] speech, religious freedom, and parental rights, with extensive experience involving sexual identity [00:01:05] issues in the courts culture and public schools.
[00:01:07] Stephanie Winn: Dean regularly files amicus briefs at the [00:01:10] US Supreme Court in landmark cases and has spearheaded the effort in California to protect religious [00:01:15] teachers from aggressive gender identity training. Dean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.
[00:01:19] Dean Broyles: It's great [00:01:20] to be with you, Stephanie.
[00:01:21] Stephanie Winn: So I had a recent episode, as you know, with Laura [00:01:25] Powell talking about, uh, Mirabel versus Bonta at the [00:01:30] Supreme Court, and we're going to pick up where that conversation left off, talk about Mirabelli [00:01:35] as well as other issues affecting teachers, public schools, parental [00:01:40] rights, the future of how we as a nation handle these issues.
[00:01:44] Stephanie Winn: I think [00:01:45] you wanted to give a summary of Mirabelli for those who might not have listened to that episode with Laura [00:01:50] or might otherwise not know what's going on.
[00:01:52] Dean Broyles: Sure. Yeah, it's great to be with you today. [00:01:55] Um, I just wanna kind of back up and. I think everybody's heard about [00:02:00] the Supreme Court ruling, but I wanna lay some of the groundwork for the ruling and, and how it [00:02:05] relates to both parental rights and teacher rights.
[00:02:08] Dean Broyles: So I wanna kind of back up [00:02:10] and, and talk about the underlying case. And it's been going on, um, [00:02:15] since it's late 2022, early 2023, and there's been a lot of litigation back and [00:02:20] forth. And so it's a multi-year case and it's only barely out of the district [00:02:25] court right now, but, um, it started in, uh, uh, [00:02:30] the Escondido Unified School District, which is North County San Diego.
[00:02:33] Dean Broyles: I actually happen to live [00:02:35] in Escondido, and I'm in following case very carefully and I know the [00:02:40] parties involved and I actually know the attorneys involved, and they're a great, great group of people. [00:02:45] But it started off really as two teachers objecting [00:02:50] to what we'll call the gender secrets policy. And that's been a policy that's been promoted here in [00:02:55] California through various.
[00:02:57] Dean Broyles: Legislations and interpretations and [00:03:00] misinterpretations of legislation that basically says that the [00:03:05] school's, uh, public edu education, um, school districts and schools and teachers, [00:03:10] um, should not share a child's, um, [00:03:15] self-expressed gender identity, um, at school unless they have the [00:03:20] consent of the student, um, the minor child.
[00:03:23] Dean Broyles: So what that [00:03:25] really has developed and is a lot of different policies and practices. One is, is the [00:03:30] statement that, um, teachers and educators don't have the ability to [00:03:35] share with parents what's happening with the their child as far as gender incongruence or gender dysphoria, [00:03:40] unless, like I said, they had the, uh, student's consent.
[00:03:44] Dean Broyles: [00:03:45] Also, it led to transition social transitioning, starting to happen to school. With [00:03:50] teachers instructed to use the student self-selected pronouns to use the self [00:03:55] student, self-selected alternative names that might not match their, uh, [00:04:00] sex, uh, biological sex, um, or the, the sex they're treated as is home [00:04:05] at home.
[00:04:06] Dean Broyles: And so, um, this, these policies have been kind of [00:04:10] codified, um, at local school districts and really pushed and promoted [00:04:15] aggressively from the California Department of Education. And so these [00:04:20] teachers just said, Hey, we're, they were Catholic, uh, Catholic, Christian [00:04:25] background. And they said, we, uh, don't feel comfortable keeping [00:04:30] secrets from parents and concealing information from parents and lying to parents, especially [00:04:35] when it comes to issues that deal with a child's health, safety and welfare.
[00:04:39] Dean Broyles: And [00:04:40] so they filed a lawsuit. Um, ultimately the lawsuit grew and expanded [00:04:45] as it was litigated over time and. Actually there, a class [00:04:50] action was developed, um, about, about a year ago, [00:04:55] and there was a class of parents that joined, uh, the lawsuit, a class of teachers [00:05:00] that joined the lawsuit, all who various, for various reasons objected to, [00:05:05] uh, the gender secrets policies and practices in public schools.
[00:05:08] Stephanie Winn: So that's the background [00:05:10] behind how Mirabelli ended up at the Supreme Court. And it's my [00:05:15] understanding that it's not settled, but that some sort of statement [00:05:20] has been made that, uh, we looking on our fighting, [00:05:25] encouraging, that's what I talked to Laura about last time. Can you summarize that? I'm, I'm not good at [00:05:30] legal terminology.
[00:05:30] Stephanie Winn: I never know how to put these things.
[00:05:32] Dean Broyles: Uh, yeah, absolutely. So [00:05:35] it, the good news, I guess. And people who are concerned with, [00:05:40] uh, the gender ideology agenda that's occurring, uh, nationwide and worldwide right [00:05:45] now, is that the judge really came down on the side of [00:05:50] parental rights very strongly and in his underlying, uh, opinion.[00:05:55]
[00:05:55] Dean Broyles: Um, and the motion for summary judgment, where the basically after [00:06:00] litigating the case, you know, both sides follow their evidence. And [00:06:05] Judge Bonita is here in San Diego County and the US District Court ruled against the state of [00:06:10] California. And I'll, I'll just read a critical sentence from Ms. Conclusion or a [00:06:15] couple sentences.
[00:06:16] Dean Broyles: He says, although parental involvement is essential to the [00:06:20] healthy maturation of school children, California's public school system, parental [00:06:25] exclusion policies place a communication barrier between parents. [00:06:30] Teachers, some parents who do not want such barriers may have the wherewithal to place [00:06:35] their children in private schools or homeschool, or to move them to a [00:06:40] different public school district.
[00:06:41] Dean Broyles: Families in the middle or lower socioeconomic [00:06:45] circumstances have no such options For these parents in new policy appears to [00:06:50] undermine their own constitutional rights while it conflicts with the knowledgeable medical [00:06:55] opinion. And I'll just say parenthetically, in that case, there were several expert [00:07:00] witnesses who said, when children are suffering or struggling or experiencing, [00:07:05] um, gender incongruence or gender dysphoria.
[00:07:09] Dean Broyles: In [00:07:10] almost every instance, it's best to have the parents engaged and involved in the [00:07:15] process and be consulting with the parents. So that was the, the testimony that was given that, [00:07:20] that the court relied on for that. The, the judge went on to say, the state defendants are, in [00:07:25] essence ask, asking this court to limit and restrict a common sense and [00:07:30] legally sound description by the United States Supreme Court of parental rights [00:07:35] that this court will not do.
[00:07:37] Dean Broyles: Although a state, as previously stated, the state's [00:07:40] desire to protect vulnerable children from harassment and discrimination is laudable [00:07:45] the parental exclusion policies create a t trifecta of harm. [00:07:50] They harm the child who needs parental guidance and possibly mental health intervention to, [00:07:55] to determine if the incongruence is organic or whether it is a result of [00:08:00] bullying, peer pressure or fleeting impulse.
[00:08:03] Dean Broyles: They harm the parents by [00:08:05] depriving them of the long recognized 14th Amendment right to care and make health decisions for their [00:08:10] children. And by substantially burdening many parents' First Amendment's rights to train their [00:08:15] children in their sincerely held religious beliefs. And finally, they harm [00:08:20] teachers who are compelled to violate the sincerely held beliefs of the parents [00:08:25] by forcing them to conceal information they feel is critical for the welfare of the students.[00:08:30]
[00:08:30] Dean Broyles: And that was signed on December 22nd, 2025 [00:08:35] by Judge Bonita, and I was in the hearing that was both sides argued [00:08:40] for over eight hours on, on both sides of that issue. And then what happened is it [00:08:45] as, as, uh, Ms. Powell, um, confirmed last week or, or [00:08:50] in your previous podcast, it went to the ninth Circuit and ninth Circuit.
[00:08:54] Dean Broyles: Um, [00:08:55] granted a temporary stay of a permanent statewide injunction. So Benitas [00:09:00] took that ruling and turned it into a permanent statewide injunction. And, [00:09:05] um, what happened was the, the Ninth Circuit, [00:09:10] um, went ahead and stated it, and it was a real, it was not a good opinion, it was just a [00:09:15] very negative, cursory opinion.
[00:09:17] Dean Broyles: And I was predicting after I read it [00:09:20] that it was gonna be overturned very quickly by the US Supreme Court, and I was surprised how quickly it was [00:09:25] overturned. The Supreme Court on March 2nd, overturned the Ninth Circuit's, [00:09:30] um, temporary stay and reinstated, um, the permanent [00:09:35] statewide injunction as to the gender secrets policies, um, as to [00:09:40] under the parental rights analysis, they didn't make a firm decision on [00:09:45] the teacher rights involved, but they did rule on parental rights.
[00:09:48] Dean Broyles: But, but in the [00:09:50] ruling, the statewide injunction. Uh, has some good language and good news for both [00:09:55] teachers and parents, but I'll share in a minute.
[00:09:57] Stephanie Winn: Well, what's the good news?
[00:09:58] Dean Broyles: The district [00:10:00] court issued a statewide injunction. Part of the language in that statewide injunction was [00:10:05] language that they needed to include in any training, any training they did of [00:10:10] parents, any training they did of students or even teachers when it came to gender [00:10:15] identity.
[00:10:15] Dean Broyles: And so, um, the judge specifically wrote, judge [00:10:20] Bonita wrote, defendant shall include in a prominent place in Prism training [00:10:25] materials and in any other state approved or created instructions on the gender related [00:10:30] rights of students and faculty. The following statement. This is a [00:10:35] quoting from the the language that's actually now on the California Department Education's [00:10:40] website.
[00:10:40] Dean Broyles: And in the Prism training and other trainings, it says, parents and [00:10:45] guardians have a federal constitutional right to be informed if their [00:10:50] public school student expresses gender incongruence. So number one, [00:10:55] parents have a right to be informed. And it goes on to say, teachers and schools have a federal [00:11:00] constitutional right to accurately inform the parent or guardian of their student [00:11:05] when the student expresses gender UNC incongruence.
[00:11:09] Dean Broyles: So [00:11:10] teachers have a right to inform parents, okay, so parents have a right to be informed and teachers have a [00:11:15] right to, and schools have a right to inform them. And then here's a key quote. These federal [00:11:20] constitutional rights are superior to any state or local laws, state or local [00:11:25] regulations, or state or local policies.
[00:11:28] Dean Broyles: To the contrary. [00:11:30] And that gets to something that, um, you know, we learned in first year [00:11:35] constitutional law. Uh, we, it talks about the, the federal supremacy clause that if [00:11:40] there's a federal constitutional right or a federal statute in [00:11:45] place, um, and that'll come into play with teacher rights in a minute, um, that actually [00:11:50] supersedes any state right to the contrary.
[00:11:52] Dean Broyles: And, and that, that's important here because the state of [00:11:55] California had been arguing that, um, their policy [00:12:00] protected the safety of students and it protected the privacy of students. [00:12:05] So the reason the state of California said it could keep secrets from parents is to [00:12:10] protect the safety and privacy of students.
[00:12:12] Dean Broyles: And what the judge was saying, there is [00:12:15] no parental rights protected by the First Amendment and by the 14th Amendment, which we'll talk about in [00:12:20] a minute, um, those actually supersede state law and any privacy [00:12:25] claims or. Or other claims to the contrary.
[00:12:28] Stephanie Winn: Yeah, the really bizarre thing I [00:12:30] talked about this with Laura as well, is that when it comes to the safety and privacy of students, that that's being [00:12:35] treated as if the parents are a threat to that rather, rather than the people the absolutely [00:12:40] most concerned with that.
[00:12:41] Stephanie Winn: Now, um, you mentioned both [00:12:45] parents and teachers having a right to. Um, be [00:12:50] informed and to inform respectively. Uh, but this raises the question of what [00:12:55] is the teacher's obligation? Um, because we have a broad variety of teachers in [00:13:00] California, I'm sure as a conservative lawyer, you help teachers [00:13:05] who might be looking for protection for their religious beliefs, which I think you have, [00:13:10] um, some expertise there to fill us in on.
[00:13:12] Stephanie Winn: Um, but then of course we also have. [00:13:15] Teachers who've drank the Kool-Aid, who, uh, maybe see themselves as, as I discussed [00:13:20] with Laura, as having some sort of, um, well, they wouldn't see themselves as having a savior complex. [00:13:25] That's how I would label it from the outside, you know? But they see themselves as a, a sort of righteous [00:13:30] rescuer of this poor, oppressed, trans child from their bigoted parents.
[00:13:34] Stephanie Winn: And, [00:13:35] and if that is their sincerely held belief, as much as you and I might [00:13:40] disagree with it, what do we know and what do we not know at this point in time about a teacher's [00:13:45] obligation to inform the parents rather than just the right of teachers who [00:13:50] choose to, to inform the parents?
[00:13:52] Dean Broyles: Yeah. So the court hasn't yet [00:13:55] said that, um, in every instance, the parents [00:14:00] have to be informed by a specific teacher.
[00:14:03] Dean Broyles: But, um, [00:14:05] if, if we kind of jump to the Supreme Court ruling, um, the Supreme [00:14:10] Court, both in the pro opinion that was issued on March 2nd. [00:14:15] In the concurrence and even in the dissent, they acknowledge that parents had rights [00:14:20] to know. And so, and that's that it's a healthcare issue, right? It's a mental [00:14:25] health issue.
[00:14:26] Dean Broyles: Right. So it would kind of [00:14:30] follow logically that if it really is a mental health issue and parents have right to [00:14:35] know that, that somebody who knows, has a, in a, [00:14:40] you know, a position of knowledge and authority in local apprentice in public schools, [00:14:45] that they would need at some point have an obligation to tell the parents.
[00:14:49] Dean Broyles: The [00:14:50] courts haven't really come out and, and said that yet, but it's kind of, [00:14:55] I think, where the case is going. Because if it is a mental health issue and the parents have [00:15:00] the right to know whether the parents affirm or don't affirm the child's identity, right? [00:15:05] Um, they, they're the ones who love the child, know the child best and are.
[00:15:09] Dean Broyles: [00:15:10] Most likely to get them mental health, uh, care, um, when they need it, right? And [00:15:15] so, um, if parents have a right to know and schools know, [00:15:20] then it's probably gonna be become an issue at some point that [00:15:25] somebody has an obligation to tell 'em whether it's an administrator or a counselor at the school or a [00:15:30] teacher.
[00:15:30] Dean Broyles: Uh, the court has not ruled yet. The individual teachers [00:15:35] have to tell parents if they know, but there is, there is [00:15:40] a broader statement that the, the school can't conceal it either. So, [00:15:45] um, where this is really. Come up is in rec school records, right? So [00:15:50] what schools in California have done is they've, they've got these shadow records, these [00:15:55] second set of records from the official records, the official records of the student would [00:16:00] have their name and biological sex that, that they're registered as, [00:16:05] um, by their parents.
[00:16:06] Dean Broyles: But the shadow records of the second file would be a [00:16:10] file that would have the students' gender identity and their personal pronouns [00:16:15] and what bathrooms they wanna use and, and, uh, those types of things in the file. [00:16:20] And that those files have been kept from parents intentionally by school [00:16:25] districts. And I've, I've heard about and seen copies of these files and it's pretty [00:16:30] outrageous.
[00:16:30] Dean Broyles: But, but what, kind of getting to what you were saying earlier, [00:16:35] that whole system assumes that, um, all [00:16:40] parents or most of the parents are unfit. That they're, and that, that you're [00:16:45] automatically unfit if you don't affirm, automatically. Affirm. Um, and [00:16:50] so that, that, and it assumes that the state knows better [00:16:55] and the state being, you know, teachers or school guidance counselors know better than the [00:17:00] parents do.
[00:17:00] Dean Broyles: Right? And so it's basically, um, you know, [00:17:05] stealing or, or stealing parental rights away from parents and, and giving them to the [00:17:10] state when the state doesn't necessarily love your child, the state doesn't necessarily know your child that does [00:17:15] state doesn't necessarily have your child's best interest in mind.
[00:17:18] Dean Broyles: They may have an ideological [00:17:20] agenda that, that, that conflicts with your, your parental rights and your family, uh, [00:17:25] your family's religious beliefs. So it's very disquieting and [00:17:30] unsettling to think in the Democratic or republic that we would have any system in [00:17:35] place that assumes parents are unfit automatically and starts.
[00:17:39] Dean Broyles: [00:17:40] Concealing, uh, information from them and starts, uh, socially transitioning a [00:17:45] child in a very touch and go, um, uh, you know, [00:17:50] issue, uh, for counseling and, and psychiatrists, which is gender dysphoria or gender [00:17:55] incongruence.
[00:17:55] Stephanie Winn: Let's talk about those shadow files. Um, so I know of [00:18:00] forms that students are asked to fill out with their personal [00:18:05] information and, you know, to check a box saying whether or not [00:18:10] you want the teacher to refer to you by the same pronouns [00:18:15] when they're talking to your parents as when they're calling your name in class.
[00:18:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:18:20] Um, is, is that the extent of it? Or, or is there more to these shadow files? [00:18:25]
[00:18:25] Dean Broyles: Yeah, there can be more. I mean, sometimes they're, they're thin and they just have, you know. [00:18:30] Check the box for name, check the box for pronoun, check the box for bathroom or [00:18:35] sports teams or things of that nature. But often, um, what what will [00:18:40] happen is, you know, teachers and the guidance counselor, maybe administrators will come [00:18:45] together and they'll create a, what, what's called a gender support plan, [00:18:50] right?
[00:18:51] Dean Broyles: Where it's not just a student saying, this is what I want, you know, [00:18:55] please oblige me. It's the school kind of cooperating without [00:19:00] student to socially transition them, um, [00:19:05] behind their parents' backs. And so it's, it's, it's a little bit more [00:19:10] nefarious and involved. And sometimes the, the school guidance counselors and [00:19:15] teachers are, are, are pushing the child in that direction and cheerleading the [00:19:20] child, um, in a way without looking at their.
[00:19:23] Dean Broyles: Potentially other [00:19:25] under underlying mental health problems that could be, uh, involved. So, [00:19:30] uh, it's very problematic
[00:19:32] Stephanie Winn: and you would think, uh, if [00:19:35] everyone were operating from common sense that [00:19:40] the teachers, administrators, counselors would [00:19:45] have some sense of what all else was going on with that kid that might [00:19:50] have led to the gender identity issue.
[00:19:52] Stephanie Winn: I mean, we've heard many stories of a [00:19:55] kid getting bullied until they came out as trans and then being popular or at [00:20:00] least protected. Um, you know, we've, we've seen many instances of things like that where you [00:20:05] would think any adult in the kid's life at school would see that. And [00:20:10] have their heckles go up in the same way that my heckles went up as a [00:20:15] therapist when I was seeing kids claiming to be trans after knowing what else they'd been through [00:20:20] in their lives.
[00:20:20] Stephanie Winn: Right? It was seeing that, putting the pieces together that got me questioning the whole [00:20:25] thing. But unfortunately, I think we, we do know that, [00:20:30] um, even when, okay, let's take a situation [00:20:35] where there is a known abusive parent and that has already been dealt with [00:20:40] legally, and that person has lost custody, uh, let's say the boy's [00:20:45] with mom because dad's in jail.
[00:20:47] Stephanie Winn: Okay? Like even in a situation [00:20:50] like that, right, where everyone at school knows about what happened to his [00:20:55] dad, you know, where, where common sense would go, oh, this boy doesn't [00:21:00] wanna be like his dad. Of course, he doesn't wanna be like his dad. You know, do you think that might have [00:21:05] anything to do with him saying he's a girl, you know?
[00:21:09] Stephanie Winn: Um, but we're [00:21:10] not seeing that common sense in teachers and counselors. [00:21:15] We're seeing common sense go out the window when gender identity [00:21:20] enters the picture,
[00:21:20] Dean Broyles: and that's the unfortunate price of locking parents [00:21:25] out of the conversation. Right. You don't have the history in the background and information [00:21:30] that may be helpful to explain what's [00:21:35] happening and that it's, you know, there, I mean, I'm not an expert on [00:21:40] social contagion and, and social movements, but, um, I'm, I know a [00:21:45] lot of people are starting to look at this spike that we, that occurred in the last decade or so [00:21:50] with trans identifying students as a real, it was, it became like pop a [00:21:55] popular thing to be and do.
[00:21:56] Dean Broyles: And so you were, and uh, there's a lot of, [00:22:00] um, peer pressure in that direction and so. Not just from, you know, fellow [00:22:05] students, but teachers and administrators and in, in popular culture. And [00:22:10] so, um, you know, I'm, I'm not saying that there aren't people who [00:22:15] really, genuinely struggle with, with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria, but I [00:22:20] think the numbers are much lower.
[00:22:22] Dean Broyles: If you, if you remove other factors and treat [00:22:25] other underlying issues, then, then people think they're,
[00:22:27] Stephanie Winn: so tell us about more the, uh, [00:22:30] religious accommodation angle.
[00:22:32] Dean Broyles: Before I jump into that, I just want to [00:22:35] talk about the Supreme Court ruling. 'cause it relates to that, it kind of sets the table for that. [00:22:40] Um, so let me, um, not, I won't, I won't beat a dead horse 'cause I know you went [00:22:45] over it already with another guest.
[00:22:46] Dean Broyles: But, uh, the Supreme Court's opinion was very [00:22:50] important. Um, not only because it's a Supreme Court, but because [00:22:55] there are, um, really important ideas that [00:23:00] are expressed here. And so. What the Supreme Court did is [00:23:05] they didn't rule on everything that had been ruled upon in, in the local [00:23:10] district court. What they did is they focused really on parental rights, but I'll talk about in a [00:23:15] minute how those parental rights affect teacher rights.
[00:23:16] Dean Broyles: So basically, you know, they were [00:23:20] addressing the, the gender secrets policy and the, and the names and pronouns, issues that we've been talking [00:23:25] about, and, and whether the district court got it right or [00:23:30] whether the ninth Circuit was right in, in reversing that, uh, permanent injunction. [00:23:35] And essentially what the US Supreme Court did is they, they said no, the district [00:23:40] court was right, uh, particularly on the issue of.
[00:23:43] Dean Broyles: Parental rights. They [00:23:45] didn't decide, uh, teacher rights. And that's important for, I'll talk about that [00:23:50] in a minute. But what the, what the Supreme Court did is they said, yeah, this, the [00:23:55] parents win or, or are likely to prevail, um, [00:24:00] because this is a preliminary injunction standard. So, uh, when, when they rule in [00:24:05] favor of someone, they say, what's a likelihood of success on the merits?
[00:24:07] Dean Broyles: And so because the case [00:24:10] was coming up on an emergency basis, they were basically saying, if the case comes back to [00:24:15] us, um, we think here's, here's why they would most likely [00:24:20] win. And so it's not a permanent decision on the merits, but [00:24:25] it's a, but this is a very detailed, uh, uh, decision. Um, and [00:24:30] the court said parents are likely to win for two reasons.
[00:24:33] Dean Broyles: Number one is [00:24:35] a first Amendment right, I'll talk about. And number two is a 14th amendment right. [00:24:40] The first Amendment right goes back to a case that was decided last summer [00:24:45] called Maud versus Taylor. And in that case, Marilyn [00:24:50] had a policy and practice of reading L-G-B-T-Q themed, [00:24:55] uh, story books and having different exercises and instruction and [00:25:00] sprinkled throughout the curriculum.
[00:25:02] Dean Broyles: And parents had asked for a right to be [00:25:05] notified. Religious parents had asked for a right to be notified and be able to opt out of [00:25:10] those lessons when they came up. And originally the school district said, yeah, we're [00:25:15] gonna, we'll do that. We'll notify you and allow you to opt out. Well, they got so many opt-out requests that, that they [00:25:20] actually shut it down and said, no, we're gonna take away that now that, right now that we gave it to you.[00:25:25]
[00:25:25] Dean Broyles: And so, um, ba so they got sued and went to the Supreme Court. [00:25:30] And Supreme Court said that, um, parents have a First [00:25:35] Amendment religious free exercise right. To instill [00:25:40] religion in their children, to pass on their faith to the next generation. [00:25:45] And the case they relied on was a case from 1973 involving the [00:25:50] Amish and, uh, back in 1973 in a case called versus Wisconsin [00:25:55] vs.
[00:25:55] Dean Broyles: Yoder, the Amish said, uh, American High [00:26:00] School is so, um, um, culturally [00:26:05] antithetical to our values as a community that we don't want our [00:26:10] kids to go to public schools after the eighth grade. We don't want compulsory education for [00:26:15] Amish children after the eighth grade. And you know what? The US Supreme Court agreed with them.
[00:26:19] Dean Broyles: They [00:26:20] said, yeah, you know, this, the values undermined or taught in, [00:26:25] uh, American high schools, um, undermine your religious Amish faith. So we're gonna [00:26:30] allow you to take your kids outta school after 14, uh, you know, when they're in eighth [00:26:35] grade if you want to. And so what the court said in the UD [00:26:40] case is, um, when lessons are taught [00:26:45] not just L-G-B-T-Q lessons, but when lessons are taught that substantially interfere, [00:26:50] undermine with the religious faith that a parent is trying to pass onto a child, [00:26:55] that parents have a right to notify the school, that they wanna be [00:27:00] told ahead of time that the lesson is occurring, number one and number two is the right to be able to [00:27:05] opt out from it.
[00:27:06] Dean Broyles: And the Supreme Court yeah, said yes, we could, we will protect the [00:27:10] religious beliefs of families by, uh, requiring notification opt out. And this is [00:27:15] really what the, the First Amendment requires. And so that was a big win, but it was [00:27:20] a big win, really only for religious parents in this area, right? There may [00:27:25] be non-religious parents, um, who object to gender ident identity [00:27:30] ideology and might wanna be notified and opt out of that, for example.
[00:27:33] Dean Broyles: So. [00:27:35] That the reason I give you that background is because now, [00:27:40] um, the Supreme Court in Maribel said, no, we're, we're not just ruling in [00:27:45] favor of religious parents and the right to pass on their faith. We're actually ruling under the [00:27:50] 14th amendment that all parents have a right to, [00:27:55] um, um, opt out of this or be excused from this kind of, um, [00:28:00] activity.
[00:28:00] Dean Broyles: And what they said is that parents have a right into the 14th [00:28:05] Amendment to direct the care and education of their children. Right. So that, that [00:28:10] was, those are cases dating back to a hundred years ago involving, you know, whether parents could [00:28:15] send their kids to Catholic schools, like a ca, a old case from 1923 called Pierce [00:28:20] Versus Society of Sisters.
[00:28:21] Dean Broyles: And fast forwarding to today, there's been other Supreme Court [00:28:25] cases that have said the parental right to direct the care and education of your children. [00:28:30] Um, extends to healthcare decisions and it also extends to mental healthcare [00:28:35] decisions in a state, a case called Parham. And so, um, the [00:28:40] court in Maribel said, you know, in addition to the religious parents having religious [00:28:45] objections, um, non-religious parents or any parent can [00:28:50] have an objection to these materials and can ask to, um, [00:28:55] not be a part of this.
[00:28:55] Dean Broyles: And what the, what the court said is, parents not the state have the [00:29:00] primary authority to, to, with respect to the upbringing and education of children. [00:29:05] The right protected by these precedents includes the [00:29:10] right not to be shut out of participation in decisions regarding their children's [00:29:15] mental health.
[00:29:16] Dean Broyles: And so, um, the court also [00:29:20] said. California's, uh, gender secrets policies likely violate [00:29:25] the parental rights to direct the, the healthcare and, um, mental [00:29:30] health decisions of their children. Right. So that makes sense also. So there's [00:29:35] a, there's a religious right under the first amendment of parents. There's the, the, what we'll call the [00:29:40] secular right under the 14th amendment of parents, um, to, to make decisions [00:29:45] about their healthcare.
[00:29:45] Dean Broyles: So, um, that, that is a real, real strong [00:29:50] affirmation by the US Supreme Court that parents not the state, should [00:29:55] be the primary ones making these decisions and not having their religious [00:30:00] beliefs or choices undermined by secrets
[00:30:02] Stephanie Winn: it seems like. Really good [00:30:05] news in theory and then in practice. I wonder how it [00:30:10] works when you think about how baked in the DEI [00:30:15] stuff is to curriculum.
[00:30:16] Stephanie Winn: I mean, it's one thing to know [00:30:20] that your kid is in a health class, which has a unit [00:30:25] at precisely six weeks into the first semester of seventh grade where [00:30:30] they talk about this and that, and you ask to review the curriculum and then you decide [00:30:35] to excuse your kid from that class. Like that's one thing when it's compartmentalized [00:30:40] like that.
[00:30:40] Stephanie Winn: But I think in real life it seems like the lines aren't so [00:30:45] neatly drawn. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:30:48] Dean Broyles: A lot of parents, [00:30:50] you know, are afraid to opt their kids out, um, because you [00:30:55] know, they don't wanna be seen as those parents, right? Or they don't want their [00:31:00] kid to be ostracized or bullied, or. And so, [00:31:05] um, there, there's that issue.
[00:31:07] Dean Broyles: Some parents are afraid to opt their kids out even if they can't. [00:31:10] Um, what we developed, and we'll be talking about this, [00:31:15] you know, at a statewide webinar coming up next month, um, on parental rights and [00:31:20] teacher rights is, um, what organizations like ours are encouraging parents [00:31:25] to do is, um, understand generally what's in the [00:31:30] curriculum.
[00:31:31] Dean Broyles: Figure out what their religious beliefs are. If it's a religious parent, for [00:31:35] example, and communicate at the beginning of the school year, Hey, [00:31:40] here are my sincerely have religious beliefs. Here are my, um, [00:31:45] um, here, here are things in the curriculum that you may be teaching [00:31:50] that will conflict with them, and I wanna be notified and, and have the right to [00:31:55] opt out.
[00:31:55] Dean Broyles: And that kind of puts the burden then after UD on the [00:32:00] district. To notify parents when they teach things that they know are gonna be on the [00:32:05] parents' checklist. And some parents could have very short checklists. It could be just L-G-B-T-Q [00:32:10] stuff. It could be, you know, some people are offended [00:32:15] by evolution being taught as a, a scientific fact versus a [00:32:20] scientific theory, things of that nature.
[00:32:21] Dean Broyles: But, you know, parents might be [00:32:25] object to, um, witchcraft being taught as coal and things of that, that [00:32:30] nature. So it's not just L-G-B-T-Q issues that parents can opt out of, [00:32:35] it's, it's other things too. And so we're developing resources where parents [00:32:40] can identify their beliefs and objections and ask to be opt out.
[00:32:44] Dean Broyles: And, [00:32:45] um, by law now after Mahmud, the school has to honor their rights. Um, [00:32:50] if, unless the school somehow can successfully argue, which would be hard for them [00:32:55] to do, that it doesn't substantially burden. Uh, the rights of parents to pass on their faith to their [00:33:00] child, which is gonna be as something the school doesn't want to get into.
[00:33:04] Dean Broyles: But, but [00:33:05] you're right. You know, practically will parents, a lot of parents use that, [00:33:10] right? Um, I'm hoping it they, because that's, that's one of the [00:33:15] problems I think in public education today and why so many people are fleeing public education [00:33:20] is it's become much more ide ideological, not just on transgender [00:33:25] issues, but on a number of issues and, and not respecting the rights of [00:33:30] different communities and different religious groups who, who are, are [00:33:35] undermined and offended by what's being taught.
[00:33:37] Dean Broyles: And so I think if we're gonna ha [00:33:40] public school as much as possible needs to be neutral and not, not be going [00:33:45] around throwing elbows and defending people. And I think public education can do a better [00:33:50] job of that. And I'm hoping that enough parents start opting out. So it kind of cleans [00:33:55] up things to where we're back to teaching.
[00:33:57] Dean Broyles: Reading, writing, math and science [00:34:00] rather than ideologies that not everybody agrees with.
[00:34:03] Stephanie Winn: In practice, [00:34:05] if a parent goes through those steps and [00:34:10] notifies the school, here are my objections to certain types of content, [00:34:15] um, and then they find out that their wishes have not been honored, what recourse do they have?
[00:34:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:34:20] What steps can they take? Is there a file? Like can they file a complaint? Who's [00:34:25] accountable?
[00:34:25] Dean Broyles: So, good question. Um, they do have legal rights and you know, it's [00:34:30] not necessarily to get money damages if their rights are violated. Typically these cases [00:34:35] involve mostly what we call injunctive and declaratory relief.
[00:34:38] Dean Broyles: Um, we [00:34:40] handled a case in Encinitas, for example, where the district, um, [00:34:45] not only taught gender ideology, but had these Catholic Christian students [00:34:50] participate in the mentoring of kindergartners and gender ideology and was very [00:34:55] coercive stuff and. Um, you know, we're, we filed a [00:35:00] lawsuit and we we're prevailing in that, but, um, typically what you would get is, [00:35:05] is an injunctive relief, like, like happened in Bare Belly, where the court [00:35:10] says, you know, stop doing this,
[00:35:12] Stephanie Winn: right?
[00:35:12] Dean Broyles: Knock it off. So in, in [00:35:15] our case, um, in Encinitas, the district adopted a policy [00:35:20] pursuant to Mahmud that says, we're gonna notify parents and allow you to opt out now, which is how [00:35:25] all the parents were asking for all along. They said, Hey, if we we're not telling you you can't [00:35:30] teach this stuff, even though we have ideological differences with you, what we are [00:35:35] telling you is just let us know and let, allow us to opt out to protect our kid and their [00:35:40] conscience.
[00:35:40] Dean Broyles: If, if, if you do it, and the district said, no, we're gonna, the district was [00:35:45] brazen. They said, we're, we're gonna keep teaching it. We're not gonna tell you when we're [00:35:50] teaching it, and we're not gonna allow you to opt out, be notified, or opt out. I mean, so. [00:35:55] That's very, in my, in my mind, that's un-American.
[00:35:57] Dean Broyles: That's very, that's very [00:36:00] anti parent. It's anti-family, it's anti-religion. It's not what we're supposed to be [00:36:05] about here in the United States. So
[00:36:06] Stephanie Winn: another place where I can see this running into some [00:36:10] problems in the execution is, um, how [00:36:15] schools handle student gender transitions [00:36:20] when, let's say, let's say that a school is in compliance.
[00:36:23] Stephanie Winn: So let's say [00:36:25] that a school is honoring the parent's right to being [00:36:30] notified, um, and the school and parent are in communication. [00:36:35] And let's say you have, uh, some affirming parents in a [00:36:40] school who think it's great that their kid. Uses some other [00:36:45] name and pronouns as and is getting on board this medical [00:36:50] conveyor belt.
[00:36:51] Stephanie Winn: And those are their sincerely held beliefs that, that this is a good [00:36:55] thing, right? And that tho those students with those gender identities [00:37:00] that are supported and encouraged by their parents, where the parents in the [00:37:05] school are communicating, are sharing a classroom with [00:37:10] students from conservative or religious households or [00:37:15] simply who do not, uh, believe in gender identity ideology.
[00:37:19] Stephanie Winn: So [00:37:20] there's a question of how the students are asked [00:37:25] to speak about their classmate, that they're asked to use the name and [00:37:30] pronouns, and furthermore that this is. Discussed [00:37:35] under the umbrella of anti-bullying. I'm trying to remember which experts I've had on this [00:37:40] podcast to talk about how that's been, that, that sort of slate of hand that they've done with the [00:37:45] anti-bullying stuff, um, and how they use that to slide a lot of [00:37:50] gender identity ideology by people.
[00:37:53] Stephanie Winn: So practically [00:37:55] speaking, when a student who, let's say, [00:38:00] shares their parents' religious beliefs and doesn't believe in gender identity ideology is sharing a [00:38:05] classroom with a student from a much different background, [00:38:10] how. You know, what the rules are in school in terms of, you know, [00:38:15] using preferred pronouns and everyone getting the lesson on [00:38:20] why you need to respect people and why respect needs to take the [00:38:25] form of lying about people's sex.
[00:38:27] Dean Broyles: And affirm always affirming no matter what. Yeah. [00:38:30]
[00:38:30] Stephanie Winn: Like, I'm wondering how that plays out for students.
[00:38:34] Dean Broyles: [00:38:35] So that's a great question. And you know, there's a great case, [00:38:40] um, called Tinker versus Des Moines that dealt with, um, high [00:38:45] school students protesting the Vietnam War by wearing black armbands. And [00:38:50] there's a great line from that case.
[00:38:52] Dean Broyles: It, it says that students do [00:38:55] not shed their constitutional rights at this schoolhouse gate. Okay. [00:39:00] So in that case, what I would argue, and I think we would prevail on it, [00:39:05] especially with this Supreme Court, is that, uh. [00:39:10] Whether it's under the guise of anti-bullying or harassment, [00:39:15] um, the state can, can cannot coerce student speech, [00:39:20] right?
[00:39:20] Dean Broyles: The state cannot tell that student, you have to use a name that doesn't [00:39:25] conform with gender or a pronoun that doesn't conform with their actual, I'm sorry, [00:39:30] actual sex. Um, let me correct that. Um, and so yeah, that, [00:39:35] that, that violates the conscience of that student to say things that they [00:39:40] believe are untrue, right?
[00:39:42] Dean Broyles: You're telling them, you know, for the sake of [00:39:45] peace and, and anti-harassment, anti bullying, to basically you have to [00:39:50] suppress your belief, right? And silence yourself and censor [00:39:55] yourself for what's, you know, what we'll call the L-G-B-T-Q greater good, right? And so [00:40:00] that's problematic, um, because at that point the [00:40:05] school is coercively trying to violate the free speech rights.[00:40:10]
[00:40:10] Dean Broyles: Of, of, in this case, a religious student who, [00:40:15] who do isn't on the, um, transgender bandwagon. So [00:40:20] we would, we would, we would sue the school for violating their, their first amendment rights. [00:40:25]
[00:40:25] Stephanie Winn: So that was a Supreme Court case back in the seventies.
[00:40:29] Dean Broyles: It [00:40:30] was, uh, the, the Tinker V versus Des Moines, I believe it was the late sixties.[00:40:35]
[00:40:35] Dean Broyles: Yeah. But they're, it's been reaffirmed over and over again. So students have, [00:40:40] teachers' rights are a little bit more murky in public schools, but student rights are definitely well [00:40:45] protected in public schools.
[00:40:47] Stephanie Winn: Your trans-identified kid won't listen to [00:40:50] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now.
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[00:41:27] Stephanie Winn: So tell us how this works in practice [00:41:30] then. Um, given that that is that the students' free speech rights are [00:41:35] protected, that feels intuitively to me, like it flies in the [00:41:40] face of stories I've heard, although I can't conjure any particular story, but I feel like I've heard stories [00:41:45] of students being called in the principal's office for their sincerely held beliefs.
[00:41:49] Stephanie Winn: [00:41:50] And I'm wondering, I mean, of course there's always, regardless of [00:41:55] law. Regardless of policy, there's always social incentives and disincentives. And that's what [00:42:00] students are gonna base their behavior on most of the time. I mean, most middle schoolers do not have strong faith in [00:42:05] their convictions so much as they have a, a great deal of social anxiety and, uh, [00:42:10] care for what the group thinks.
[00:42:11] Stephanie Winn: And, you know, even, even the boldest of sixth [00:42:15] graders are not, uh, particularly wired to go against the grain [00:42:20] and, and say unpopular things. But what I am hearing is that the protection is [00:42:25] there, even if it doesn't feel like it in the culture of the [00:42:30] learning environment. I'm just wondering how this plays out for a student.
[00:42:34] Stephanie Winn: You know, let's say [00:42:35] there's a parent listening. Who, okay, take. A recent friend of mine, [00:42:40] um, met a woman recently who has a 15-year-old daughter, and she said, my [00:42:45] daughter's an even bigger turf than I am. So suppose that my new friend is [00:42:50] listening and or her daughter, maybe she's listening with her daughter, [00:42:55] and, uh, the daughter wants to abstain from using [00:43:00] preferred pronouns in awoke, you know, Portland Public School.
[00:43:04] Stephanie Winn: [00:43:05] Um, what should that daughter and her mom know about [00:43:10] her rights and how that plays out in practice?
[00:43:12] Dean Broyles: Well, I mean, uh, these [00:43:15] cases are often fact sensitive, but I, I would say, you know, you [00:43:20] have to be brave and bold and courageous to stand up against the, the cultural wave, [00:43:25] uh, that we've all been kind of under, especially under transgender issue recently.
[00:43:29] Dean Broyles: But [00:43:30] I, you know, I, I love to represent people who. Not, they're [00:43:35] not hateful. They're not mean, they're not big. They're actually not bigoted. They actually love [00:43:40] people no matter how they identify, but they're just not willing [00:43:45] to lie. Um, it's like a, Alexander Sol Chen wrote that, [00:43:50] um, that that speech in that article on, uh, calls live not by [00:43:55] lies.
[00:43:55] Dean Broyles: We're just not willing to say things that aren't true and that aren't consistent with what they [00:44:00] believe about human sexuality. And so, um, [00:44:05] they, they could, you know, depending on the facts, um, we, or an [00:44:10] organization like ours would represent them if the school is [00:44:15] pressuring them to say things or do things that conflict with their sincerely held [00:44:20] religious beliefs.
[00:44:21] Dean Broyles: And so, typically, and we do these cases all the time, [00:44:25] we'd be making a, um, religious fear exercise claim on behalf of the student. But we'd [00:44:30] also, in that context, be making a. Free speech claim because [00:44:35] it's, it's, they're trying to coerce speech, not, and that's [00:44:40] not just speech. I mean by speech. They're trying to really coerce what they believe, [00:44:45] right?
[00:44:45] Dean Broyles: What the student believes or what they're able to express about their own belief, right? [00:44:50] So it's very, um, what's happening in this context [00:44:55] is very, um, Orwellian. I mean, it's, it's big brother of the [00:45:00] state saying, Hey, if you don't agree a hundred percent with our sexual [00:45:05] orthodoxy, you're a heretic and you need to be silenced and [00:45:10] suppressed.
[00:45:10] Dean Broyles: And bull, bull really, they bully you, ironically, [00:45:15] in the name of ending harassment and bullying. They're really bullying and harassing a lot of, [00:45:20] of, uh, religious folks. I mean, even here in liberal California, [00:45:25] approximately 70% of, um, the. [00:45:30] The, the public, uh, rep is representing a different religious beliefs, right?
[00:45:34] Dean Broyles: And [00:45:35] so in a high percentage of those probably have fairly traditional religious beliefs, [00:45:40] and a lot of them go to public schools and they're, they're feeling bullied and harassed and [00:45:45] silenced. And I actually confronted a educator several years ago, and I said, you know, I know [00:45:50] you're, you're trying to protect the L-G-B-T-Q identifying [00:45:55] students from bullying harassment.
[00:45:56] Dean Broyles: But what about all the other kids [00:46:00] who have a different worldview? How do you think they're feeling? Do they think they feel safe and [00:46:05] welcome and accepted in public schools? A lot of 'em don't. Um, so. [00:46:10] We've got, it's a problem. It's a big problem that nobody's talking about.
[00:46:14] Stephanie Winn: So you're [00:46:15] talking about the, uh, chilling effect on the student.
[00:46:19] Stephanie Winn: Not [00:46:20] only what they feel that they can say, but what they can [00:46:25] believe. Because so much of how we arrive at our beliefs is through [00:46:30] talking to other people. And that makes me think of a third factor, which [00:46:35] is what students signal to other students are acceptable thoughts [00:46:40] to entertain. Um, I, I. Suspect that [00:46:45] there's a lot of preference falsification going on, um, [00:46:50] especially in, uh, blue states.
[00:46:53] Stephanie Winn: Um, [00:46:55] because I, I know, and I've talked on this podcast and I've talked behind the scenes to [00:47:00] many people, um, in traditionally liberal areas, many of them still [00:47:05] quite liberal themselves personally, um, but who do not [00:47:10] agree with gender identity, ideology. And [00:47:15] it's really frightening how hard it is [00:47:20] for people to even find each other, to find other people in their own community [00:47:25] who share their beliefs, um, or who, who otherwise [00:47:30] have not bought in to this crazy set of beliefs.
[00:47:33] Stephanie Winn: So if students. [00:47:35] Feel, I mean, we're, we're talking about two different things because we're saying legally [00:47:40] students do have free speech rights. Um, no student in a public school can be [00:47:45] compelled to use, uh, speech that feels, um, [00:47:50] like it violates their sincerely held beliefs, whether those are religious beliefs or simply [00:47:55] beliefs in biological reality.
[00:47:57] Stephanie Winn: Um, but practically the culture of the [00:48:00] school is a different matter. And when it comes to the culture of the school, that's what [00:48:05] I'm concerned about is can students, uh, find other students who are, who are [00:48:10] questioning this? I mean, how many times have, have any of us looked around for someone [00:48:15] else in the same room to validate our perspective when it's something didn't.
[00:48:19] Stephanie Winn: [00:48:20] Seari seem right or smell right or, uh, something is off. You know, you hear something. Do you [00:48:25] hear that? Is that my tinnitus? Or is there a high pitched sound in the room? You, you look to other [00:48:30] people to, to see, am I crazy? Am I being [00:48:35] hypersensitive or is there something going on here? And students in, in [00:48:40] a developmental time in their life, uh, if they can't do that with each [00:48:45] other, if they can't, you know, say that's a boy.
[00:48:48] Stephanie Winn: Right? That's, [00:48:50] yeah, that's a boy. You know, if they can't do that then, and then they're just constantly [00:48:55] being gaslit and their natural instincts are being suppressed, and then you end up with this [00:49:00] broad scale preference falsification, where it's like the emperor's new close. Everyone thinks that [00:49:05] everyone else really sees the close and most people don't.
[00:49:08] Dean Broyles: Yeah. It's interesting to [00:49:10] use the term Emperors New Close. 'cause I've, when I've written about. Years [00:49:15] ago, I was writing about what, what I called the gender blender and gender confusion. And before it [00:49:20] was even, you know, right after it was pushed at the US after the Supreme Court ruled [00:49:25] and on behalf of same-sex marriage, right.
[00:49:26] Dean Broyles: In 2015, as soon as that, that, you know, [00:49:30] constitutional right was, was recognized, um, that's when gender [00:49:35] started being pushed right away. And I predicted then that, um, [00:49:40] that it, the, the t was gonna unfortunately [00:49:45] boomerang on the whole movement, um, be, and, and it's, it's unfortunately happened. I mean, [00:49:50] TT has now fallen quickly out of favor because of things like the cast report from England, [00:49:55] the HHS report recently last year, and know the science [00:50:00] scientific research is starting to really come out against.
[00:50:04] Dean Broyles: The idea [00:50:05] of pushing kids in, in this one one way direction. Um, it's very [00:50:10] harmful, but I, I use the same term. The emperor has no clothes. Why? And I felt like I was [00:50:15] alone in saying that out loud, you know, five to seven years ago. But now [00:50:20] it's, it's, it's becoming more popular. And I think for me, the issue [00:50:25] of gender ideology, um, until [00:50:30] people realize how people are being harmed by it, right?
[00:50:33] Dean Broyles: Like, like lobotomies, you [00:50:35] know, it used to be popular to, with people, with mental problems, to do lobotomies. [00:50:40] Thankfully we don't do that anymore because it's unthinkable, right? I think [00:50:45] we need to make butchering, uh, children's bodies with chemicals [00:50:50] and hormones and surgeries unthinkable. 'cause it really is causing a lot of [00:50:55] harm.
[00:50:55] Dean Broyles: Um, but, you know, they, the whole idea of, of peer [00:51:00] pressure. Kind of, um, it maybe is a good segue to talk about teachers, right? [00:51:05] Because it's not only students in the classroom being pressured to use pronouns [00:51:10] and names, it's teachers, right? And they've got the Damick Lee sword hanging over them [00:51:15] of maybe losing their job if they don't, if they're not with the program.
[00:51:19] Dean Broyles: And [00:51:20] so, um, what, what's happened is really in my [00:51:25] mind, almost diabolical here in California. Um, there was a law that was [00:51:30] passed in 2023. It was called AB five. [00:51:35] And um, the idea of AB five is, hey, you know, we've been [00:51:40] pushing this agenda for a decade now. We've been passing [00:51:45] laws and the CDEs has been pushing the lie that [00:51:50] legally schools had to keep gender secrets from parents, right?
[00:51:54] Dean Broyles: And so everybody [00:51:55] is kind of. They, they thought they had, everybody bought into it, but they're like, oh, we [00:52:00] need to make sure all of our teachers are on board. So they created what's [00:52:05] called, um, L-G-B-T-Q Cultural Competency Training, um, in [00:52:10] 2023. And there's, there's about 10 to 12 things that the statute [00:52:15] says, oh, when you go through the training, this is what you need to teach.
[00:52:17] Dean Broyles: And it's, it's a, it's a [00:52:20] five year, one hour a year, uh, training. [00:52:25] Um, and the California Department of Education was tasked to create [00:52:30] this model training, it's called PRISM Training. And it started this, they [00:52:35] started implementing it and putting into practice this year with the first year of training was this year.[00:52:40]
[00:52:40] Dean Broyles: And, um, we started getting calls from all our state, from [00:52:45] Christian teachers and, and even teachers of other faith who [00:52:50] said. This stuff is very coercive, it's very aggressive. I [00:52:55] can't in good conscience even take the training basically, is what these teachers were starting to say. And [00:53:00] we started looking into it.
[00:53:01] Dean Broyles: And um, [00:53:05] basically the training among other things said you were, you know, you're, you're [00:53:10] basically a bigot on the wrong side of history if you don't affirm [00:53:15] right. And at Affirm, I'm not just talking about, you know, all [00:53:20] the L-G-B-T-Q stuff, but they're really focused on gender in the training. [00:53:25] If you don't affirm that the child's chosen name pronouns and keep secrets from [00:53:30] parents and you don't create a safe space in your class with all the [00:53:35] L-G-B-T-Q banners and, and stuff, then you're not a good ally, you're not a good teacher and [00:53:40] you're not culturally competent.
[00:53:41] Dean Broyles: So it's trying to push all the teachers no matter what [00:53:45] their sincerely held religious beliefs are to. Um, [00:53:50] affirm and, and essentially, um, it, it, it's, so [00:53:55] it basically tells these teachers you need to suppress what you believe, [00:54:00] um, and, and, and self-censor yourself. [00:54:05] And if you don't, um, it's, the [00:54:10] best way to describe it is it's basically asking people with a, [00:54:15] uh, worldview of human unhuman sexuality that's traditional, biblical Christian, [00:54:20] Catholic, et cetera, to basically erase and replace their worldview.[00:54:25]
[00:54:25] Dean Broyles: You know, it's like, here's, here's the right belief, here's a wrong belief. You're believing [00:54:30] wrong, you know, believe this and do this and say this, right? So it's very, [00:54:35] and it tells 'em, here's what you need to do in the classroom. And so, um, [00:54:40] we got involved and I did a lot of work. Uh. On [00:54:45] religious accommodation.
[00:54:45] Dean Broyles: I'm, I'm, I'm actually an expert in religious accommodation. I've done a lot of cases, especially during [00:54:50] the pandemic. Um, and I'm actually been asked, I'm a constitutional [00:54:55] attorney primarily, but I do a lot of religious accommodation, employment cases [00:55:00] and I've had a lot of success in that. So I was, when uh, teachers started reaching [00:55:05] out with the concerns, nobody else stepped up to help 'em.
[00:55:08] Dean Broyles: I thought somebody needs to help these [00:55:10] teachers 'cause they should be even, have to be subjected to this [00:55:15] very aggressive, coercive, or willing and training. And so, uh, we [00:55:20] developed, um, a religious accommodation request letter that actually, [00:55:25] you know, argues that, um, these [00:55:30] policies and practices. They were pushed by Prism.
[00:55:32] Dean Broyles: And there's the policies, same policies and [00:55:35] practices we've been talking about all day today. Um, violate the First Amendment [00:55:40] rights of teachers to be free from course speech themselves, like the students we were talking about [00:55:45] earlier. And Al also violates their free exercise of religion. But the [00:55:50] main leverage we have is actually statutorily under Title vii, federal Title VII [00:55:55] and state, uh, similar state law called the Fair Employment Housing Act.
[00:55:59] Dean Broyles: Um, [00:56:00] basically what those statutes require is that an employer [00:56:05] must accommodate the sincerely held religious objections to an [00:56:10] employer mandate in the workplace, unless it imposes an undue hardship on [00:56:15] the employer. Um, and undue hardship was recently ruled in favor [00:56:20] of employees at the Supreme Court.
[00:56:22] Dean Broyles: Recently the standard was set. Back in the [00:56:25] case a couple years ago called CR versus DeJoy. And so we started [00:56:30] telling these teachers, Hey, guess what? You have a right to re request religious [00:56:35] accommodation and they have to accommodate you and, and, and, [00:56:40] and they really don't have a defense that it impose an undue hardship on the, um, [00:56:45] school because, uh, undue hardship is a significant burden or expense and [00:56:50] the school just can't meet that defensive test.
[00:56:53] Dean Broyles: And so, [00:56:55] um, we, we started writing these letters and started submitting 'em in [00:57:00] November. And over time, um, school districts have actually pulled back on Prism. [00:57:05] Prism was, was created by the California, um, [00:57:10] department of Education. They subcontracted with the, uh, Los Angeles [00:57:15] Department, county Department of Education.
[00:57:17] Dean Broyles: Who brought in a [00:57:20] coalition of very far left groups like the Trevor Project, um, [00:57:25] ACL Youth, Southern California, um, advocates for youth that does cartoon [00:57:30] pornography for kids in schools. I mean, just who all these really woke [00:57:35] groups, um, who are really pushing the trans agenda in a very radical [00:57:40] way and all spheres of their influence to create this, this curriculum.[00:57:45]
[00:57:45] Dean Broyles: And I said earlier there was 10 to 12 kind of more vanilla type things that the [00:57:50] training was supposed to include on a scale of one to 10. I would describe [00:57:55] the statutory requirements in the training, maybe about a five of being bad [00:58:00] as far as ideology. But, but what they did is [00:58:05] they supercharged it in the form of this prism training, which was the model for everything else [00:58:10] that was probably a 10 or 11 on a scale of one to 10 of being really [00:58:15] ideological and aggressive.
[00:58:15] Dean Broyles: And so. These teachers saw this training, they're like, we can't do it. We [00:58:20] can't take the training. And so we developed this resource and started pushing back. [00:58:25] And thankfully, um, some districts have created [00:58:30] alternative training that's a little bit more watered down, not as aggressive, but it [00:58:35] still statutorily has to be similar or substantially similar to Prism.
[00:58:39] Dean Broyles: So [00:58:40] all the training's bad, it's just the question of how bad is it? How coer some is it? [00:58:45] And um, recently since the Mirabelli decision at the US Supreme Court, [00:58:50] um, the, all of our clients have been getting, [00:58:55] uh, not just offered alternative training that's still bad. They're now [00:59:00] being told they don't even have to take the training at all.
[00:59:03] Dean Broyles: Not just for this year, but [00:59:05] some of them for all five years. And so, um, and the [00:59:10] context of protecting teachers rights, we're being able to do that successfully. [00:59:15] What's sad to me though is, um, that kind of fear factor that we [00:59:20] talked about amongst students. It's very prominent amongst teachers too. Teachers don't wanna be [00:59:25] looked down off, uh, uh, as, you know, homophobic or, you know, [00:59:30] transphobic bigots or whatever.
[00:59:31] Dean Broyles: So they're afraid to reach up, [00:59:35] you know, reach out and, and, and make a stand. And some of the teachers [00:59:40] have have kind of bit the bullet and gone through the training anyway, but then come back to other [00:59:45] Christian and Catholic teachers and said in tears and said, I really feel like I [00:59:50] sold my soul. I really feel like I violated my conscience to take this training and I wish I [00:59:55] hadn't done it.
[00:59:56] Dean Broyles: And so, even though we're helping hundreds of teachers across the state, [01:00:00] in the state, the sizes of California, um, we should be getting [01:00:05] thousands if not tens of thousands of assistance requests. And we're only getting a few [01:00:10] in part because, um, as we've been talking about. [01:00:15] We live kind of in a post-Christian culture, in a post-truth culture, in a [01:00:20] post-traditional culture where if you maintain a, a biblical view or a a [01:00:25] Christian view or a Catholic view on human sexuality, you're seen as backwards and kind of cast [01:00:30] aside.
[01:00:30] Dean Broyles: So even though, like we said, you're legally protected, a lot of people are [01:00:35] afraid to stand up. And, um, the problem is, [01:00:40] you know, whether you're a Christian or not, if, if you can't stand up and speak the [01:00:45] truth and, and speak at boldly, and clearly we don't live in a free [01:00:50] nation anymore. And there's, there's this kind of sociological theory that was [01:00:55] developed after pre-World War ii, Nazi Germany to explain why did so many Germans go [01:01:00] along with what Hitler and the Nazis did, right?
[01:01:03] Dean Broyles: Not just to the Jews, [01:01:05] but to, to, to everyone. Um, and the idea is as more pressure [01:01:10] comes against. The more, uh, people wanting to save their [01:01:15] skins and their livelihood and their families, they, they become more and more quiet in [01:01:20] silence. And it's called the spiral of silence. But that spiral can be reversed.[01:01:25]
[01:01:25] Dean Broyles: And I think we're seeing that happen in this transgender space, right? Where more [01:01:30] people are willing to speak the truth of love and speak up and, and [01:01:35] say, this is insanity. We've gotta rethink this. Um, we're [01:01:40] seeing, um, uh, more of a movement against it, and we're [01:01:45] making, um, I think it's becoming, starting to become unthinkable.
[01:01:48] Dean Broyles: And so I'm, I'm [01:01:50] hopeful that the truth will prevail, um, whether from a Christian [01:01:55] perspective or from a secular perspective in this whole ID ideology. I just wanted to [01:02:00] affirm that, that teachers and students have rights. It's not, even though we were [01:02:05] focused on parental rights of mirabelli and Mahmud, it's actually spilling over into the [01:02:10] teachers and.
[01:02:11] Dean Broyles: Um, you know, one of the things that the, the, the court [01:02:15] has said is that the teacher's right to inform parents, [01:02:20] um, is their religious right too. That's what the Judge Bonita said. [01:02:25] If they believe, if their religion teaches them that parents should [01:02:30] be the ones in control of their child's life and not the state, then that [01:02:35] the, the, the teacher actually has a legal constitutional right to inform parents.
[01:02:39] Dean Broyles: [01:02:40] And that, that's kind of boosted by the parental right to know, right. The [01:02:45] parental right to know that information. And so, um, I think the [01:02:50] rights of teachers and parents are, are very well intertwined and [01:02:55] aligned here. And some, some teachers won't wanna tell parents, um. [01:03:00] But I think it's a mistake to assume that all parents are [01:03:05] unfit, therefore, all parents must be kept in the dark.
[01:03:07] Dean Broyles: I think that's a very dangerous [01:03:10] proposition.
[01:03:10] Stephanie Winn: Are you a freethinking therapist looking for like-minded community? The [01:03:15] Association for Mental Health Professionals is a sanctuary for holistic critical thinking [01:03:20] counselors and therapists who want to stand firm in our values and reclaim our profession. From [01:03:25] ideologues, A MHP offers its members a blog and podcast, [01:03:30] monthly webinars, and an annual conference each fall in Texas.
[01:03:33] Stephanie Winn: Visit [01:03:35] Association for mental health professionals.org to join a growing number of [01:03:40] like-minded therapists who want our profession back. Alright, now back to the show. We've [01:03:45] been talking about this from the angle of teachers' rights to inform parents [01:03:50] and parents' rights to be informed. I feel silly for not [01:03:55] covering this earlier, but what does all of that have to do with policies [01:04:00] on using preferred names and pronouns when parents don't [01:04:05] approve?
[01:04:05] Stephanie Winn: 'cause it's, I mean, our parents in California essentially being [01:04:10] informed, Hey, your kid is going by this other name and pronoun in school. And if the parents, [01:04:15] if the parent objects to that, it's, is it, well we check the [01:04:20] box, we informed you and we're gonna keep calling them what they wanna be called in school or [01:04:25] does it go beyond information?
[01:04:27] Stephanie Winn: Do the parents have a right to [01:04:30] decide if that name and pronoun can be used or [01:04:35] not?
[01:04:36] Dean Broyles: Yes. So, um, [01:04:40] some of this needs to be worked out in the courts [01:04:45] exactly what the parameters are, but I think that's where [01:04:50] it's going. Because if parents has the right to direct care and education of their [01:04:55] child, and you know, that includes knowing about de gender dysphoria.
[01:04:58] Dean Broyles: It's not just knowing about de [01:05:00] gender dysphoria. It's, it's, um, it's, [01:05:05] it's kind of being in charge and, and where that goes. Right. This, in other words, the [01:05:10] state shouldn't be in charge of what happens with that. It's the parents who are in charge of what happens with that and their [01:05:15] mental healthcare providers.
[01:05:16] Dean Broyles: Right. So, um, [01:05:20] I, I believe ultimately the courts are gonna say, and, and this is, and the state's [01:05:25] kind of interpreting it this way so far, is that, hey, if a parent tells [01:05:30] you, um, tell me if my client is expressing gender [01:05:35] incongruence, then we need to tell them, right? If the parent says, [01:05:40] I don't want you to use preferred names or pronouns, then we probably need to respect that.[01:05:45]
[01:05:45] Dean Broyles: 'cause that seems to be where the Supreme Court is going with all of this. That, that [01:05:50] parents have a superior right, to make those decisions over the state. [01:05:55] So the state can't undermine not only [01:06:00] the religious parental rights involved, but the healthcare parental rights that are involved for everyone, [01:06:05] even if they're not religious.
[01:06:06] Dean Broyles: So I think, I think that's where it's going. But, [01:06:10] um, we're still kind of early in the litigation. There's, there's actually, besides the [01:06:15] Mirabelli case, there's I think up to several dozen other [01:06:20] cases, including the foot case that are pending before the Supreme Court are working [01:06:25] their way up towards the Supreme Court.
[01:06:27] Dean Broyles: So, um, I think the [01:06:30] court in the procuring decision that they issued on March 2nd [01:06:35] was signaling that, Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna side [01:06:40] strongly with the parents on this issue. Um, and, and you [01:06:45] can't keep secrets anymore, especially if the parents tell you they wanna know. And especially if they tell you not to [01:06:50] socially transition the kid behind their back.
[01:06:53] Dean Broyles: And I think that's gonna spill over [01:06:55] and benefit teachers too. Even though this current Supreme Court ruling didn't really address [01:07:00] the teacher arguments, they were primarily address at the lower court level by Judge Beez. [01:07:05] I think ultimately the arguments and facts that were provided [01:07:10] there will, uh, also occur in favor of teachers who wanna notify [01:07:15] parents.
[01:07:15] Stephanie Winn: So it is moving in the direction of parents having the [01:07:20] right to say no, you may not call my child by a different name and pronoun in [01:07:25] school. And that's not set in stone yet. It is [01:07:30] being framed, however, at least by you here as a healthcare decision, which I would agree with. And that was [01:07:35] something I discussed with Laura Powell in our episode on this topic.
[01:07:39] Stephanie Winn: You know, [01:07:40] she raised the question of is social transition a medical intervention? [01:07:45] And, uh, she and I both said, and I'm sure you agree that it is [01:07:50] and therefore should not be made by people without a medical [01:07:55] background or without, um, a counseling background. But of course, you [01:08:00] know, I have my objections with, uh, the way that a lot of my [01:08:05] colleagues think on this issue.
[01:08:06] Stephanie Winn: And, uh, part of the issue that I see [01:08:10] is therapists wanting to see themselves [01:08:15] as good people who are just following their client's lead, taking it one step at a [01:08:20] time, exploring gender identity and not [01:08:25] acknowledging that. For one thing, as a [01:08:30] professional and as an adult other than a child's parent, we have a certain degree of authority [01:08:35] with our patients who are adolescents and young adults.
[01:08:38] Stephanie Winn: And that that authority [01:08:40] means something. And that our stance, even if we think of it [01:08:45] as exploratory, can be interpreted as a [01:08:50] validation of the identity. And that things like, uh, going [01:08:55] along with using names and pronouns are not neutral. And I [01:09:00] cannot tell you how many stories I hear in my unique role as a coach for these [01:09:05] parents.
[01:09:06] Stephanie Winn: Of them finding a therapist they thought was well vetted. [01:09:10] Um, you know, typically not someone with a high profile like myself. In fact, I [01:09:15] specifically advise them not to do that. I say, if, if your child's therapist [01:09:20] can be found on the transgender map website, then that's not gonna work. [01:09:25] 'cause your kid's gonna Google them and they're gonna say, oh, this person's a terrible Nazi.
[01:09:29] Stephanie Winn: Right? Like, [01:09:30] so you want someone your child will trust and establish rapport with, but you also wanna make sure [01:09:35] that person's well vetted. I cannot tell you how many stories I hear of parents taking their [01:09:40] kids to these people they think are going to explore the issue, not just take [01:09:45] a declaration of identity, at face value as some sort of demographic label.[01:09:50]
[01:09:50] Stephanie Winn: And then so much of the time these therapists [01:09:55] end up affirming the identity or, you know, talking to the parents often in front [01:10:00] of the child about the importance of just giving them that inch. [01:10:05] Saying, oh, well, you know, if you just compromise. And, and these, the therapists are [01:10:10] so terribly informed. I can tell I've never met them, but I can tell that they don't [01:10:15] know what they're doing.
[01:10:16] Stephanie Winn: When parents talk to me about how they're proceeding [01:10:20] because they are naively assuming that the child [01:10:25] will be satisfied, right? So the child puts it forth like some sort of compromise, [01:10:30] like a position that they can settle on, right? Well, if my parents will only call me this, or [01:10:35] they'll only do this for me, and then I'll be okay.
[01:10:37] Stephanie Winn: Right? And then the therapist naively believe that [01:10:40] collude with the child, argue that position to the parents. [01:10:45] And I think these therapists really think that, that that'll make the [01:10:50] kids stop, resenting the parent, be more open with them, start collaborating and [01:10:55] working with therapy in a more productive and holistic manner, and that eventually they'll be [01:11:00] able to.
[01:11:01] Stephanie Winn: Get them to a better place. That I really think that's what a lot of these therapists [01:11:05] think. And they're so wrong about that because if, if you've been studying this [01:11:10] issue intensively for a while, like I have, you see that, that, that the goalposts are [01:11:15] constantly shifting with these kids. You know, they might believe, they might sincerely believe [01:11:20] that they will be satisfied by their parents' compromising on [01:11:25] the name or pronoun issue, but they'll, their so-called [01:11:30] euphoria in reaction to that is going to be short-lived, and then they're gonna up the ante again.
[01:11:34] Stephanie Winn: [01:11:35] And every time a young person reinforces the belief through their [01:11:40] actions, their words. Their counseling relationship reinforces the belief that they [01:11:45] have to be seen and treated a certain way in order to be themselves, in order to be okay. They're strengthening the neural pathways [01:11:50] associated with gender obsession and digging themselves further into that hole.
[01:11:53] Stephanie Winn: So I am so frustrated with [01:11:55] my colleagues on this issue. I, um, have this conversation every single week and [01:12:00] my coaching work. Um, you know, I tell parents, uh, it sounds [01:12:05] paranoid until you've seen what I've seen. Then you understand why I say that therapists are guilty [01:12:10] until proven innocent on this issue. So all of that is my little soapbox rant in [01:12:15] reaction to the topic of healthcare because yes, that is a healthcare [01:12:20] decision, right?
[01:12:21] Stephanie Winn: The, the decision to participate in social transition in any way [01:12:25] to affirm the identity, to use the name and pronoun is endorsing it and [01:12:30] is having a, an impact on what's happening with that developing [01:12:35] child's brain.
[01:12:36] Dean Broyles: It's a stepping stone off into the. The [01:12:40] next thing on the conveyor belt you mentioned earlier, which is medicalization and, you know, [01:12:45] hormone therapies and chemicals and surgeries and, and, um, [01:12:50] the, you know, I don't know if you've heard these statistics, but [01:12:55] the desistance I, I heard from these social scientists who study this a lot.
[01:12:59] Dean Broyles: [01:13:00] They said the de desistence rate of, of, of people who [01:13:05] once identify as transgender is over 85%. [01:13:10] Okay. If, and, and if it, it may, you know, I don't, I don't know if those [01:13:15] numbers are correct or not, but if it's anything close to that, we've gotta be very [01:13:20] careful pushing kids to make decisions that they may [01:13:25] regret for the rest of their life.
[01:13:26] Dean Broyles: I mean, this is one thing where you can really do a lot of [01:13:30] damage before you realize what's happened. And, um, we're [01:13:35] talking about kids here. You know, this whole idea of autonomy [01:13:40] has made us insane, right? We're gonna make young people who don't have [01:13:45] their prefrontal cortex fully developed. They're not 24 or 25 or older yet.[01:13:50]
[01:13:50] Dean Broyles: We're gonna seed autonomy and authority to them to direct the [01:13:55] counselor and the parents as to what happens that may affect the rest of their life. Um, in [01:14:00] any other context, this would be insane, you know, if our kid came to us and said, Hey, [01:14:05] you know, I feel like I'm a crocodile today, right? What, what, what, what would we do with that [01:14:10] information?
[01:14:10] Dean Broyles: What we just say? Yeah, I, you know, whatever you wanna be, you can be a crocodile. [01:14:15] And I'm not, I'm not trying to minimize the issue, but what I am saying [01:14:20] is this whole bandwagon effect is, you know, peer pressure and bandwagon has not [01:14:25] just affected kids and, and what they're experiencing. It's affected. [01:14:30] Or infected.
[01:14:31] Dean Broyles: It's like, I don't, I don't wanna call it the woke mind virus, but [01:14:35] maybe I will. It's just, it's made people stupid to, [01:14:40] to, to actually put aside normal safeguards and, uh, [01:14:45] commitments to truth that we would have in every other context in, in, in [01:14:50] professional, uh, society. We've just kind of gone insane collectively together on this [01:14:55] issue.
[01:14:55] Dean Broyles: And I think thankfully we're starting to wake up from our slumber.
[01:14:59] Stephanie Winn: [01:15:00] Yes. And we don't know what the desistance rates really will be with this cohort, because we [01:15:05] never run this experiment before. You know, the desistence rates we know more about, [01:15:10] have to do with an older cohort of people who are mostly, mostly turned out to [01:15:15] be gay and lesbian.
[01:15:16] Stephanie Winn: Um, and, and we're talking about, you know, [01:15:20] gender atypical behaviors and gender dysphoria and young children. Well now [01:15:25] we have a social contagion. Where we have girls who were [01:15:30] very girly and feminine until last week, and then the [01:15:35] perfect storm hit between her social influences, her [01:15:40] online influences, her normal frustrations with things like [01:15:45] menstruation, you know, the, all these things hit.
[01:15:47] Stephanie Winn: And then [01:15:50] unfortunately the, uh, pansexual to non-binary to trans. Pipeline in [01:15:55] middle school girls is still alive and well. As much as there is speculation and, and [01:16:00] anecdotal reports, and I see them too, that it seems to be, uh, no longer [01:16:05] trendy or that, you know, there's a younger generation that's had this, uh, propaganda s shoved down [01:16:10] their throats so much that they're growing up sick of it and rejecting it as much as that's happening.[01:16:15]
[01:16:15] Stephanie Winn: Still that pansexual to non-binary, to trans pipeline in adolescent [01:16:20] girls in the schools, and a lot of other sources of indoctrination. We also see it at later ages [01:16:25] with the males. Uh, that's anecdotally what I see is the males tend to be later ages, and that's [01:16:30] also, um, when Lisa Lipman, uh, presented at Gen SPECT [01:16:35] in Albuquerque in September, some preliminary research that's not published yet.
[01:16:39] Stephanie Winn: That was what [01:16:40] her data was showing as well. Also, if you go to deran.ai, I've had Peter, James, Steven, the creator of [01:16:45] Deran Det Trans AI on this podcast. We've talked about how the data [01:16:50] from his Reddit forum scrape also matches up with sort of younger [01:16:55] females, the older males, right? So we have like an increasing picture of who these kids are, what their [01:17:00] demographics are, you know, and those girly girls, the [01:17:05] ones who are repressing their femininity to hide behind the shield of masculinity [01:17:10] because of what that represents to them.
[01:17:12] Stephanie Winn: Um. I mean, what are their desistance rates [01:17:15] gonna be like sky high. Right? But, but we're medicalizing it, [01:17:20] we're affirming it. So we, we've never run this experiment before where all of society [01:17:25] is on board where a, a temporary state is being taken to mean something [01:17:30] else and medicalized. So it's just gonna be a big crazy mess for many [01:17:35] decades to come.
[01:17:35] Stephanie Winn: I mean, I think probably the rest of my life, you know, I'm, I'm about [01:17:40] halfway through, about halfway through life, and I feel like this is gonna, um, [01:17:45] I, I don't know. I'm gonna be in the retirement home and hopefully I'll be [01:17:50] respected. I'll be like, yeah, I was one of the first, you know, I was one of the first calling [01:17:55] BS on that, you know, but I mean, we're gonna have a lot of, um, [01:18:00] a lot of regretful, sterile [01:18:05] 30 and 40 somethings with a lot of health problems.
[01:18:08] Stephanie Winn: I, I say this as someone who. [01:18:10] Has struggled with my health a little earlier in life than I was hoping to have had to do [01:18:15] so, and I just really feel for where these kids are gonna end up. [01:18:20]
[01:18:20] Dean Broyles: I would just, one thing I would add to that, what we're starting to see in [01:18:25] my, in my former life as an attorney, I was, I did medical malpractice cases, right?
[01:18:29] Dean Broyles: [01:18:30] And so we're starting to see detransition win [01:18:35] malpractice cases, and not only against doctors, but I think who, [01:18:40] who did the surgeries and procedures. I think it's gonna be against some of the counselors who pushed 'em in that direction too. [01:18:45] So I think I'm, I, you know, we, we talk about being on the [01:18:50] wrong side of history or the right side of history.
[01:18:52] Dean Broyles: We also could be talking about, [01:18:55] um, hurting people and being held accountable for hurting people. And so,
[01:18:59] Stephanie Winn: yeah, [01:19:00]
[01:19:00] Dean Broyles: I think that's, I think we're gonna see that conversation grow and [01:19:05] actually that the same firm that, um. Is [01:19:10] litigating the Bare Belly case is, is suing Kaiser for Chloe Cole. [01:19:15] So, um,
[01:19:16] Stephanie Winn: so I did have, um, Benjamin Ryan on this podcast to discuss [01:19:20] the Arian v Einhorn verdict.
[01:19:22] Stephanie Winn: As soon as that happened, and I, I've been [01:19:25] in the gender Cris scene long enough. I remember when we were all like, what about when there's [01:19:30] finally a verdict? You know, like it, it was years of like, we need one of these [01:19:35] cases to succeed. And then, and then it happened, right? And it was very in the Einhorn and it feels so [01:19:40] significant to me as a therapist who's speaking out against this issue and who's [01:19:45] completely pivoted my career to focus on this issue in a much different way than I ever [01:19:50] imagined possible.
[01:19:51] Stephanie Winn: Um, that the very first [01:19:55] Detransition lawsuit to succeed found the psychologist, [01:20:00] 70% liable for the harm. That is huge [01:20:05] and. I mentioned it on that episode, and I'm gonna mention it again here, [01:20:10] that the psychologist in that case worked [01:20:15] for the company that essentially, [01:20:20] what's the word? When a company buys out, another company?
[01:20:23] Stephanie Winn: Acquired, [01:20:25] yeah. Acquired, um, uh, the company that acquired the company I [01:20:30] used to work for, in other words, I worked for one little company over here that was regional. He worked for [01:20:35] one little company over here that was regional. The same company bought out both of those [01:20:40] nationwide. Right. So I would've been colleagues with this guy.
[01:20:44] Stephanie Winn: I mean, we're [01:20:45] basically professional cousins. The guy, the guy who's found [01:20:50] 70% liable. And of course the company doesn't want the spotlight on them. Nobody knows that life [01:20:55] stands health is, um, Einhorn's employer. But [01:21:00] I'll say it 'cause I don't mind. I don't mind [01:21:05] saying that, uh, you know, that there, there are individuals.
[01:21:09] Stephanie Winn: I mean, [01:21:10] the, the whole way that this was handled in the case, um, you know, [01:21:15] there, there must have been some agreements behind closed doors that they were gonna keep the focus on the individual [01:21:20] psychologist and not the environment that he worked in. But I think at some [01:21:25] point we have to deal with the environment because as a therapist who worked in a group [01:21:30] setting, probably quite similar to the group setting that he worked in, there is a [01:21:35] standard of care established in that environment where if you don't, [01:21:40] um.
[01:21:40] Stephanie Winn: Have the proper expertise for a certain presenting problem, you'd go and [01:21:45] talk to a colleague, or you get more training, or you bring it up at a clinical [01:21:50] meeting with your colleagues and you say, Hey, does anybody, can I consult with you about this [01:21:55] gender dysphoria case? Or whatever? Right. And gender dysphoria, by the way, was like never in her [01:22:00] record even.
[01:22:01] Stephanie Winn: Um, so as, [01:22:05] as the heat gets turned toward therapists for their [01:22:10] role in this, right, everyone's gonna wanna pass the buck. Oh, I was just following orders. I was [01:22:15] just doing what I was told. But as you know, people like Einhorn got found [01:22:20] liable, uh, for the harm that they've done in, you know, detransition our [01:22:25] cases or other forms of malpractice.
[01:22:27] Stephanie Winn: At some point we have to look at what are company [01:22:30] policies, what's being taught at trainings. Um. [01:22:35] Like the culture of, uh, psychotherapy. And so on that [01:22:40] note, I know that you, uh, advise therapists, um, mostly in [01:22:45] California. Um, and some of that has to do [01:22:50] with, um, religious therapists who want to offer, [01:22:55] um, voluntary talk therapy, uh, for people with [01:23:00] unwanted same sex attraction.
[01:23:01] Stephanie Winn: That's not something we're gonna get into here because I am Switzerland on that [01:23:05] issue. But, um, I'm curious, uh, because that's, that's kind of the more [01:23:10] extreme manifestation. I know a lot of therapists who, um, just wanna be [01:23:15] able to speak more freely about gender identity. Um, what can you say to the [01:23:20] therapist in the audience, particularly the therapist in California or any [01:23:25] other blue states that you might know of?
[01:23:27] Stephanie Winn: Um. About [01:23:30] their freedom of speech and their freedom to, uh, [01:23:35] adhere to their conscience and their sincerely held beliefs in counseling [01:23:40] relationships with young people presenting with gender distress. What can you say to those therapists who are [01:23:45] listening?
[01:23:46] Dean Broyles: Yeah, so there's a case pending before the Supreme Court.
[01:23:48] Dean Broyles: Right now. It's a [01:23:50] child's case outta Colorado. And, um, I was asked to [01:23:55] file an amicus brief in that case, but I was too busy to do it at the time. But, um, a lot of [01:24:00] the counselors and therapists I work with filed briefs in that case. And [01:24:05] it's pretty clear that the US Supreme Court is [01:24:10] going to uphold the right of people in talk therapy [01:24:15] to not have compelled speech.
[01:24:17] Dean Broyles: Right? And in, in this [01:24:20] case, Charles happens to be a Christian. Um, but [01:24:25] um, her. It's not, it's not just her religious liberty. [01:24:30] It's at stake. It's, it's whether counseling, you know, [01:24:35] uh, licensing bodies and, and state officials can, can coerce speech as [01:24:40] far as talk therapy and talk therapy, um, [01:24:45] is classic free speech.
[01:24:47] Dean Broyles: And, and, and, and we believe that [01:24:50] the US Supreme Court's gonna affirm that principle. So [01:24:55] whatever side you're on of, of the, um, same sex attraction issue or the [01:25:00] transgender issue, um, what we advocate and what we think the [01:25:05] Supreme Court's gonna, uh, affirm is, is the right to speak as [01:25:10] freely as possible without being constrained or coerced or pressured.
[01:25:13] Dean Broyles: And, you know, [01:25:15] jumping back to the malpractice issue, I think that, [01:25:20] um. One of the things, one of the fallouts of this whole, uh, transgender [01:25:25] agenda is that the adults in the room and the professionals in, in the room, by adults, [01:25:30] I mean teachers, parents, therapists, uh, surgeons, [01:25:35] did not behave like adults. And they were not objective and they didn't look at [01:25:40] the truth, and they gave way too much autonomy to the child whose prefrontal [01:25:45] cortex, as I said earlier, wasn't developed.
[01:25:46] Dean Broyles: And so we, the adults failed. Kids have [01:25:50] failed kids, and we need to apologize for that, repent of that, and, [01:25:55] and never do it again. So that's my soapbox for today.
[01:25:58] Stephanie Winn: That's a great [01:26:00] soapbox. Well, where can people find you?
[01:26:02] Dean Broyles: I have a website, it's [01:26:05] nclp law.org. It stands for National Center for Law and [01:26:10] Policy and uh, law.org.
[01:26:12] Dean Broyles: And I do a little bit on [01:26:15] Twitter and some on Facebook, but. The main place to find us is probably on our [01:26:20] website or, or, or check us out on Facebook, but we're, [01:26:25] I've been involved in the whole, um, uh, identity, [01:26:30] sexual identity movement probably for the last 25 years in various [01:26:35] legal and public policy aspects.
[01:26:36] Dean Broyles: So, um, very familiar with it and very, [01:26:40] very pleased that, um, on, on this issue, we seem to be [01:26:45] pushing, uh, telling the truth and pushing back evil and winning. So I'm [01:26:50] really encouraged right now.
[01:26:52] Stephanie Winn: Well, thank you so much, Dean Broyles, for all [01:26:55] of your advocacy, all the work that you're doing to, um, [01:27:00] help our movement succeed and for sharing your expertise with us on the podcast today.[01:27:05]
[01:27:05] Stephanie Winn: It's been a pleasure.
[01:27:06] Dean Broyles: Thank you so much, Stephanie. Good to meet with you. [01:27:10]
[01:27:10] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you [01:27:15] enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment [01:27:20] on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, [01:27:25] podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist.
[01:27:28] Stephanie Winn: Special thanks to [01:27:30] Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick [01:27:35] for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your [01:27:40] family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD, [01:27:45] repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to [01:27:50] get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below.[01:27:55]
[01:27:55] Stephanie Winn: Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today [01:28:00] in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken [01:28:05] dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:28:10] [01:28:15] [01:28:20] [01:28:25] [01:28:30] [01:28:35] [01:28:40] world.