From Video Games to Healthcare Tech with Cyrus Greenall - Co-Founder of Firstline

Welcome to the Small Tech Podcast! In this episode, we sit down with Cyrus Greenall, co-founder of Firstline. Explore the evolution of healthcare tech and how Firstline is revolutionizing clinical guidance for healthcare providers. Learn about Cyrus's transition from game development to healthcare innovation. Join us for an in-depth discussion on the impact of Firstline on global health and the future of clinical decision-making.

Cyrus's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cyrusg/
Firstline - https://firstline.org/

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Creators & Guests

Host

Raphaël Titsworth-Morin

Trying to do good in the world with tech and design. I also take the occasional photograph. Co-founder of Éphémère Creative. He/him.

Guest

Cyrus Greenall

Co-Founder of Firstline

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Raphael: /Hey folks, and welcome
to this latest episode of

the Small Tech Podcast by EC.

And today we have another amazing guest.

He is the co founder and director of
Firstline, a platform used by over

150, 000 healthcare providers in over
400 hospitals around the world to make

clinical guidance on infectious diseases
easily accessible at the point of care.

He is Cyrus Greenall.

Hi, Cyrus.

Cyrus Greenall: Hi, Raphael.

How are you?

Raphael: I'm doing well.

How are you?

Cyrus Greenall: I'm good.

Thank you.

Raphael: Well, yeah, welcome to the
podcast and I would love to learn more

about how you got to where you are.

So what was your journey?

How did you get to Firstline?

I know you did some stuff in game
development before, so I'm just

curious to poke around at that.

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I can share
like I, yeah, my dream when I

was a kid, probably from the age
12, was to work in video games.

And when I was 13, I wrote a letter
to the president of Electronic Arts,

Raphael: I love it

Cyrus Greenall: Making a claim of what I
thought about the future of video games.

And, why I thought they should give me a
job, which, of course, they could never

do it But what was amazing is that they
that fellow, Don Matrick, invited me to

their office in Vancouver, gave me a tour,
and just showed me, exposed me to, video

games and software development and it was
so exciting to me and it was amazing that

he took time out of his busy schedule
to, entertain a 13 year old, but that

really started my path and everything was
really focused on software development

and video games, so that's what I learned
throughout high school and university

ended up starting my own video game
company and worked at Electronic Arts.

And and other video game companies.

But after some time there, as, you get
older, became, I say my goals shifted and

I realized there's a lot more to life and
my career than just video games alone.

It's a difficult industry and it has a
lot of value, but at the same time, like

I was looking for something a little
bit more and started building apps and

doing different kind of projects and
I collaborated with a friend of mine

who's brilliant self taught programmer
who was also a teacher and had taught

himself to code and had ended up
publishing several apps on his own.

And this is This is like early
in the days of the App Store.

So when it was less
accessible than it is today.

And I was just amazed that someone,
it's very rare actually for people

to, at the A later stage in life to
teach themselves software development

and actually self publish apps
themselves again at that stage.

So I, I feel like I have
to work with this guy.

Like he was just brilliant.

And and so, his brother and sister in
law were infectious disease physicians

and and he was beginning to develop
a prototype pilot at their hospitals.

And and this is really to try
to tackle this global health

issue of antibiotic resistance.

So that's where this story starts.

Raphael: Okay.

And so from how did you
fit into this picture?

What was your role when you
first started working together?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.

Well, I mean, it was really just
a, like a pilot and an idea.

And it wasn't really a business.

So the idea was to come in With my
business acumen, if you can call it

that and really help turn it into
something that would, that take it

from a pile into something that we
could scale and actually, create

a business around it and grow it.

And it was so exciting to me to
work on something that had such a

potentially tangible benefit on people.

And again, as much as I love
video games and there's a role

for entertainment in this role.

It's, it doesn't have the same direct
effect on people's lives as, software

and something like healthcare can.

So yeah, so my role was really, I mean,
as in a startup, it's like wearing every

hat, but it was a big part of was just
building the business, even doing some

Android development but and sales and
really anything and everything that

was needed, including building content
for hospitals when we first began.

Raphael: Oh, wow.

How was that?

I feel like that must be like,
hospitals must have a special

kind of way of operating.

I feel like anything medical
and anything tied to government

always feels a little onerous.

So yeah.

How's that?

I mean, both in content and,
the rest of the work that you've

been doing over the years.

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.

I mean, it's different from business,
of course, because the business is

primarily governed by profit, and
if they see, if a business sees

something that will, show a return
on investment, they'll likely invest.

But with healthcare, of course, there's
so many different factors to consider.

And it's not always just about the money.

It's also about the quality.

And it's also about the time, too, that
physicians and pharmacists and nurses

and administrators are all burned out.

So there's a limited ability to
take on, new technologies, new

innovations, even if it's something
that may, might make a difference.

Raphael: So are the people who would be
using the technologies, are they resistant

or is it the structure that's resistant?

Cyrus Greenall: So the folks that we
work with the closest are are experts

in infectious diseases and antibiotics.

And they're physicians, they're
pharmacists, they're nurses, and they have

their daily work, their clinical work.

So.

When it comes to adopting new
technology to really start to try

to transform their work, of course,
it's very exciting, but it comes

at the expense of their daily work.

So, that's always a challenge
for us is, working within

their kind of priority matrix.

Raphael: Actually, so I realized that,
I had my little blurb at the beginning

about Firstline, but maybe you can
tell us what's your 30 second pitch?

What is Firstline?

Cyrus Greenall: Taking a huge step
back, the big challenge is that,

medicine is really difficult and
no, person, no provider alone has

all the knowledge necessary to
make the best possible decisions.

Just impossible.

And I think there's more and more
recognition that it's just not reasonable

to expect everyone to be up to date on all
evidence on all specialties in healthcare.

So with that recognition, the realization
that we need adjunct tools to help us,

either people or technology or both.

So the idea of our tool is, a decision
support tool that a physician or

pharmacist or nurse can reference when
they're making a treatment decision.

And so when it comes to infectious
diseases and the treatment the treatment

of them in Canada and the United States
and elsewhere in the world, up to 50

percent of treatment decisions are
considered inappropriate or unnecessary.

So, almost half of the time when
antibiotics are are prescribed, there may

not be needed or it's the wrong drug or
the wrong duration of therapy and so on.

And that's a relatively
high rate of error.

And the consequences you
can imagine are enormous.

There's an impact on the patient.

There's an impact on the organization
because they're spending more money.

And there's an effect
on the globe because.

The excess use of antibiotics is leading
towards the resistance to antibiotics.

So, so our tool is really helping
guide the providers, the physicians

and pharmacists and so on, make
more appropriate decisions.

So we've had, studies where
you know people using our tool

have seen a 90 percent level.

of appropriateness of prescribing.

So far above that benchmark of, 50 to 70%.

Raphael: Yeah.

That's a huge Delta.

Also like the 50 percent
number was stunning to hear.

I didn't realize it was that high.

Wild.

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah it's extraordinary
and I think we're really just at the

beginning of this like new age of clinical
guidance and really development of

standardizing care across an organization
where you move away from like individuals

making decisions, based on their own
personal knowledge and preferences, and

moving towards a standardization of care.

And to do that, of course,
you need a clear standard.

You need to express it and you
need to make it easy for people

to adhere to that standard.

That's essentially what our tool does.

And of course We do that
through mobile and desktop.

So, a physician can download Firstline
on their phones or access it on

the web through their organization
to access, trusted guidance.

Raphael: And mechanically
how does it work?

I guess from a user perspective,
like what is it that they're doing

when they interact with the app?

But I'm also curious in part because
of the whole, the explosion of LLMs,

and I feel like this is one of those
things that comes up in the discussion

about LLMs oh no, like the doctor can
just ask the AI here's some symptoms,

here's some things give me a diagnosis.

Yeah, how does all of that
fit into your product?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, I mean,
so first of all, We're different from

most apps because of course most apps,
most software is trying to keep you in

the tool as long as possible, right?

You want as much attention as you can.

Ours is the opposite.

We want to get you out as quickly
as possible because if we create too

much friction, people won't use it.

So there's a lot of aversion
to technology in healthcare.

And that's largely because
most technology is not really

designed with the user in mind.

It's I would never just, I would
rarely describe it as user friendly.

So our tool, the average someone
spends is about 60 seconds.

And that's a reasonable amount of time for
someone to, turn their attention towards

the app to help them make a decision.

So the way that it works is we customize.

The tool for every
organization that we work with.

The old state was generic
resources that were nationally

or internationally applicable.

Raphael: Yeah.

Cyrus Greenall: With the, again, the
nature of medicine and particularly

infectious diseases, there's a high degree
of local, variation So, what you prescribe

in Vancouver may be very different from
Toronto or Los angeles or New Delhi.

And even in Vancouver, there
are differences in what

a hospital may recommend.

So our software allows an organization to
tailor it specific to their local context.

So we have a, kinda proprietary
backend that essentially is a no code

platform for creating clinical guidance
that is standardized but at the same

time it's you know locally specific

Raphael: interesting.

So you have this no code tool.

Which also very cool.

I always find like platforms that
offer that kind of flexibility are

really interesting to poke around at.

And yeah, I feel like
they're interesting systems.

But I'm curious, like from a technology
perspective, is it doing anything machine

learning or is it all is it rules based?

Like you put in X, you can
guarantee you're going to get Y out.

Just sorting system or
do you use anything?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah so thing with a tool
like our is we want to be as discrete

and black and white as possible, at
least at this stage, so there is there

is the ability to incorporate like
calculators can become more complex

decision support, but it's all very
transparent parent to the end user.

These are things that they
would be calculating already.

But you can imagine, I don't even know how
they are doing it at the moment on paper.

So using the app, it makes
it far more efficient.

In fact, I mean, most cases are
probably not calculating it.

But there are things
that they likely should.

As far as like large language models and
so on, yeah, there's enormous opportunity

but in healthcare, of course, there's
a lot of, a lot of risks involved.

We now have one of the largest
databases of clinical guidance for

infectious diseases in the world.

We have one of the largest
databases of resistance data in

the world, among other things.

So in this kind of new chapter of
like technology where, everyone

is thinking about Gen AI data
is a huge part of that moat.

And so we're fortunate that There is a
lot of, content but it's being mindful

of how it can be used in a way that's
really bringing value to the community.

Our customers and not ever compromising
the quality of the service.

Raphael: Yeah.

It makes sense.

Is there a way for you to track outcomes
from the decisions made using your system?

Cyrus Greenall: Like use in terms
of how the platform is used.

We don't track the actual
like healthcare outcomes.

So we get that from the organizations
that we work with, that we partner with.

They're always interested
in really understanding the

impact of a tool like ours.

And so they do that, they publish studies
and posters and so on in presentations.

That talk about the impact of
Firstline in their organization.

Raphael: Cool.

Yeah, no, I was curious.

I was thinking like, if you have these
complex decision trees that give you

some, like some tangible output that
you can then apply to like a medical

decision, like it'd be really neat to
then correlate that back and see like

where they could like tweak, tweak their
own inputs to improve it over time or

something like that, I think that would be

Cyrus Greenall: Absolutely.

And it's really it's an area that there's
a lot of opportunity, I think, to learn

because no one really knows exactly
what type of guidelines work the best.

A lot of it is based on subjective
preferences, which is fine,

but I think there's an enormous
opportunity to incorporate data into

how we develop clinical guidance.

Raphael: That's fascinating.

So just a thought that I had was,
I imagine there's all of these

kind of structures around how you
build for this medical system.

That is significantly different
from the game development.

And I'm curious, like even just
like learning the language of the

medical system and how they operate,
like even just those things, like

how, what has that learning been
like for you in that transition?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, it's
really interesting, actually.

And it's so different in many ways.

First of all, I find it way easier.

I don't, I mean, I've been, involved
in quite a few different areas of

software development, and video games
is by far the most difficult that I've

experienced, because it touches on almost
every area of software engineering from

AI to rendering to physics and so on
you have to have someone that's good

at almost everything on your team not
to mention the incorporation of arts.

but just from a software engineering
perspective it's incredibly complex and

the team size and the most difficult
thing is that the goal is entertainment

and fun is very difficult to predict.

As I became more experienced in
the industry, I started to realize

that, even the best designers that
I'd ever worked with, there was a

high degree of unpredictability.

There was things that we thought would
be amazing and fun, and they weren't.

And they just didn't work, and we'd have
to scrap it and start all over again.

So there's that prototyping aspect
in video games that's so crucial,

and the best designers in the
world lean on that methodology.

In this world it's much better because
I find, because it's intuitive.

There's not, I mean, there's a degree of
prototyping, but the goal is very clear.

It's make the experience better
for the end user, which is usually,

I mean, we can follow like best
industry, best practices for that.

And it's really all for
these clinical issues.

So we're constantly listening to
our customers and particularly

those infectious disease experts to
understand what are the problems that

they're experiencing in the hospital.

We really try to dive into the
specific clinical issues because often

when people come to us, they say,
oh, no one looks at our guidelines.

We'd love to use an app.

And that's great.

But there's a deeper level of challenges,
and the problem space is much more

complex when you dive into, well, why is
it that you want people to use guidance?

Where are they, where are their
opportunities for improvement

in terms of clinical care.

So we try to drive at those
issues and then think about

what's the best way to solve it.

So I find that process much more intuitive
because there's always an answer.

It's just about, really finding
the, most efficient way.

And of course, making sure that problem
is actually a problem worth solving.

Yeah.

And then in terms of yeah, obviously
space that I have no background in and

many of my colleagues were, yeah, we're
blessed like the folks that we work with,

they're so happy to share and teach us.

So, from the day that I started, It was
really immersing myself in this world.

And I love doing that.

Love getting into a space
that I know nothing about.

And I still know very little, but
we talk to our customers constantly.

I would say we have really
great relationships.

Many of them I've now called my
friends because we chat so often and

and it's a lot of learning from them.

And in fact I think the fact that we
don't have a background in healthcare

has actually benefited us because we
come at it from a different perspective.

Our competency is really
in technology and design.

I mean, we have some competency in
healthcare and in, some clinical

expertise, but really we bring software
and design, which is, like I said,

is often lacking in the industry.

Raphael: Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense.

I feel like that's a thing that I also
enjoy with the type of work that we do

is just being able to dig into a whole
new problem set, a whole new industry.

Yeah, it's really rewarding.

I'm curious also, again, from this
transition from games, was there

anything that you found was perhaps
oddly useful knowledge to transfer

from game development into this field?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

I think, gamification is, I mean, it's
a term that's overused and I think

misunderstood, but I think understanding
the importance of engagement, right?

And the user experience, obviously that's
paramount in games and it's no different

in any, software that's user centered.

And like I said before, we've really come
at it with this approach of, how do we

create a tool that providers want to use?

That they'll go out of their way to
use, even if it's just 60 seconds.

So there's a lot of those concepts,
I think, brought into the tool

that really lean on user experience
design that that we would often

leverage, of course, in video games.

Raphael: I feel like that gives
you such a step up when you find

people who don't care about that.

They think, well, no,
here's the functionality.

The functionality exists.

It should take off.

People should use this, right?

But they forget that if it's not
pleasant to use, if it's not fun

to use, if it's not smooth to
use, then people won't use it.

Cyrus Greenall: Yes.

Raphael: Yeah.

Cool.

Well, I last sort of question that
I've got is do you have any things

that like, if you would, if you could
go back, do I understand correctly

that you started this in 2014?

Is that what you said?

Or what I read?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, 2015 is
when the company was incorporated.

Oh

Raphael: cool.

Yeah.

If if you had to tell yourself
a couple pieces of advice you

back in 2015 what would it be?

Cyrus Greenall: My gosh.

I, yeah, that's, that, that
would be a whole other episode, I

Raphael: Okay.

Then just one thing, one thing,

Cyrus Greenall: just one thing

Raphael: change.

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, actually, I
think, I would say the biggest thing was

really understanding what a sales led
versus product led business looks like.

I'm a product person.

I think about product led,
and we have the best product.

In the marketplace, which is amazing but
I've really more and more understood the

power of sales and how product alone is
not going to, especially in a complex

organization a health care system.

The product alone is not going to
necessarily move people when you're

talking to the CEO of a very large
health care organization they don't care.

about your app and its cool features.

Now the physicians and pharmacists
that use the tool, they may, but those

who are actually paying for it don't.

So you really have to
understand what matters to them.

And we've gotten a lot of coaching and
I think it's had a huge effect because

we've really shifted our orientation to
really helping the teams that we work

with, the clinical teams and ourselves to
learn how to sell this to an organization.

So how do we position our tool
as a product that solves problems

that the administration of a
hospital organization cares about?

So that may be saving money, it might
be improving their hospital acquired

infection rates things like that.

So, so we're doing that now.

I wish we had done that earlier.

When we started it took us, it, I think
it took a long time of really trying

to like hitting walls in in terms of
getting approval at an administrative

level to really understand like,
what's the right way to sell this.

Raphael: That makes sense.

Well, this is the small tech podcast.

So do you have a small tech
product to share with us?

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.

I was thinking a lot.

Well, Oh yeah, there it's hard to choose,
but one that just came to mind, cause you

mentioned that's had a positive experience
and I was thinking about Kiva and I

don't know if you're familiar with Kiva.

Raphael: Yeah.

Kiva.org

Cyrus Greenall: And they have a mobile
app now, which, and I was asking them

for 10 years ago and they finally made
one and it's really well designed.

And I just, yeah, it's such a great
concept and I just, I love it.

And I've done it with different
kids that I've worked with and such.

We, my wife has done it in her classroom
and it's a micro financing platform that

It helps you give it makes it easy to
give small loans, interest free loans,

to people around the world, and and so
you can fund projects like building a

home, or a farm, or some educational So,
structure and you choose the projects and

people that you want to give the loan to,
and then they pay it back over time and

then you can relend it to other projects.

So and it's, it has a bit of
gamification to it, which is fun.

And so I'm always like, I'm obsessed
with trying to have as many countries as

possible that I've connected with, but
it's really nice because you actually

feel a small amount of connection.

You get to see the story of the
folks that you're giving a loan to.

And it's a very small amount.

Often it's like 25 dollars
nothing special but it's cool

to see the effects that it has.

Raphael: Amazing.

I love that.

That is such a good suggestion.

It's, I think Kiva is a wonderful platform
I also, I love like the updates that

you get from people when you give some
money to a project . Well, Cyrus, thank

you so much for coming on the podcast.

Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure.

Raphael: yeah, I really appreciate it.

It was, Wonderful to learn about
your journey and everything you've

learned and that you've been
putting together with Firstline.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure.

Raphael: Cool.

All right.

Raphaël: After Cyrus and I stopped
recording, he told me about a couple

more stories that made a lot of
sense to bring back into the podcast.

So we started recording again.

Here are those stories.

Enjoy.

Raphael: And in my past startups,

Yeah,

Cyrus Greenall: there, we have
some, when we did video games,

we have some crazy stories.

And, I was thinking, I was like, what like
crazy stories we have from our company?

Things where it's like taking that bold,
leap as an entrepreneur, like doing things

that are a little bit crazy sometimes.

And so, I don't know, I was I find those,
there's those moments where I'm like,

that they're real, a big test for me.

And it's so cool when it actually
comes out and you actually survive.

So anyway, I can share a
little bit about that, but.

Raphael: yeah, go for

Cyrus Greenall: There's actually two.

yeah the first one was, so we as I
mentioned, like we're really steeped in

this world of antimicrobial stewardship
and in late 2019, early 2020, we

started, hearing about this Wuhan
virus that was, later called COVID.

It hadn't reached North America yet.

And honestly I did not anticipate, I think
few did, but I really did not anticipate

the effect it would have on the globe
and on the Western world and our business

while it was focused on antimicrobials
or antibiotics the folks that we work

with are infectious disease experts.

So they were affected and they essentially
became preoccupied with Covid and I was

on a trip to New York and I was visiting.

The New York City Department of
Health is a customer of ours and we

were potentially gonna be working
with some hospitals in New York.

So I went on a trip to, try to
strengthen that relationship and

meet new hospitals and I was.

I was alarmed when I saw how much had,
it was affecting their attention even.

So at the, at a department of health,
they were, activated, which meant like

every single person in the department
of health had shifted their energy

towards the preparation, this was
before any cases had reached New York

but they were anticipating the arrival
of cases and how to respond to it.

And so much so that no one
was able to meet with me.

I met with one person.

And and then I went to go visit
hospitals again, I could see how much

it was occupying their attention.

And, um, and so I, I got on the
phone with my partners and I said

this is this is a huge thing.

And if not, forget the global
health impact, but just the impact

on our business like we are.

We're going to lose like the attention
of every single person we work with if we

don't find a way to somehow support them.

And at this stage, remember
there was no treatment.

There was little knowledge about the
disease and and we had absolutely no idea.

We're still, I would say, pretty ignorant
to like what, how we could support

outside of antibiotic prescribing.

So we got on the phone and talked to
as many people as we could talk to

our customers and really trying to
understand like, how could Firstline,

we were called Spectrum at that point.

How could we help with this?

Cause we had people were talking
to potential customers who were

basically saying, hey, we can't talk
anymore because I'm focused on COVID.

So we ended up really trying to understand
how we could solve that problem.

We found like, Hey, maybe
this is something we could do.

In terms of helping hospitals
identify, does a patient have COVID,

If they have COVID, what
do you do with them?

Where do you admit them to?

What tests do you give them?

Right?

There was all these questions that
our customers were dealing with.

We said, well, Hey, we have a platform
that helps people make decisions.

Can't we help?

With this problem too.

And sure enough, like a few
people said yeah, I think

actually this might be helpful.

Let me see if we can get funding for it.

And they did.

And and so what became potentially
like a perilous moment for the

company, honestly, like it might have
it might have destroyed the company.

I don't know what effect it
would have had we not pivoted.

It ended up becoming one of our biggest
years and an incredible inflection point.

We ended up getting support
from the Canadian federal

government to expand our platform.

We signed up provinces across Canada.

We became one of the most widely used
clinical decision support tools in Canada.

We were helping hospitals across the
country share the first protocols

for the treatment of COVID.

And honestly had it not been for
that conversation in New York, and

we would have been much slower to
respond, maybe too slow, to be honest.

Raphael: Wild.

I feel like that's also such a good
story to highlight these moments where

you're just got to figure something out.

This feels

Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, honestly,

Raphael: break.

Cyrus Greenall: It really felt like that
it was like 24 hours around the clock.

We were working on prototypes, if you
will, to show people like, hey, is

this something that would be helpful?

With no idea if it actually
was something of value.

And I can share briefly as a shorter
story, but this is a continuation.

So we were doing a pilot in a
number of countries in Europe.

And And it was during COVID, and it
really disrupted that pilot, but we

were launching at a major university
teaching center in the Netherlands,

and we were launching on a Saturday.

In hindsight, I don't know why they
chose a Saturday to launch, but this

was shortly after we had pivoted
and expanded the app to support all

infectious diseases, including COVID.

And on Friday at 5 p.

m.

Google took down our app off the Play
Store as I can't remember under their

policy because there were so many
fraudulent apps around on the app

store and Play Store at that time.

And so they basically anything
that I think mentioned COVID in

its description was taken offline.

Thankfully Apple didn't do that but
Google did and so our app couldn't be

download or accessed, and we were going
to be launching in the hospital the

next day with a mission critical tool
that their providers wanted to use for

the treatment and management of COVID,
and they couldn't access the app.

Raphael: No.

Oh

Cyrus Greenall: this was horrifying.

And of course with Google, it was just
an automated email with no support.

The moment I responded and
received the email was already

close of business for them.

Raphael: man.

Cyrus Greenall: I'm in a panic.

And with.

with really no idea of what to do.

And I start calling every single
phone number I can think of.

I called Google Cloud and who
had an office in Philippines and

had nothing to do with we were
Please connect me with someone,

someone's got to be able to help me.

And I was just, shouting, critical
that this is a critical, access tool.

For like healthcare
and for patient safety,

Raphael: Yeah.

and none of these numbers I
called, I left messages, I tweeted,

At Google, of course, nobody is
responding, and I am like in a full on

panic, and I start Emailing people and
then scouring LinkedIn, and I was just

starting to put my I started to think, I
got to think outside the box here because

this is a disaster if we launch and
half the people can't download the app.

So I start going on LinkedIn and I
start searching people who maybe have

some, say in like turning our app back
online and I realized, of course, like

now it's like Friday at 9 PM, who is
going to be checking their LinkedIn.

So I think, okay, I need to contact
people who are based in Europe.

So I found VPs and product managers
of the Google Play, of Google Play in

Europe, and ended up and sent probably
about, I don't know, 50 connection

requests the same, similar message.

And finally, the VP of the Play Store
of Google Europe responded and said,

And connected me with someone and
said, okay, we're going to fix this.

And within an hour it was fixed.

This was now Saturday,
like four in the morning.

So I had been going, I think for
12 hours trying to figure this out.

I finally fell asleep
at five in the morning.

The app was back online and then the
crisis was averted, but it was yeah,

it's like these kinds of moments.

There's that happened once, once in
a while in the business where You,

yeah, as an entrepreneur, you have
to think outside the box and kind of

do anything to keep things running.

Yep.

That is wild.

Both that they just automatically
shut down everything related to

COVID with the word COVID is,

Cyrus Greenall: a very Google approach.

I'm sorry to say, I love Google, but
it's a very Google approach to just,

automatically turn off everything.

Raphael: but also amazing that
you actually, that you managed

to connect with someone who,

Cyrus Greenall: yeah.

Credit to them that someone
actually responded onto a

LinkedIn connection request.

Raphael: Yeah.

Amazing.

Folks that was my interview
with the awesome Cyrus Greenall

co-founder of Firstline.

I hope you enjoy the
conversation as much as I did.

I thought it was amazing.

You can go find Cyrus and
Firstline at firstline.org.

You can find the small tech
podcast at smalltechpodcast.com.

And if you happen to need help building
digital products, you can go find

us at goec.io that is G O E C .io.

We are a small team and we can
take all the help we can get.

So if you can liken subscribe on
YouTube give us a five-star rating

on your podcast app of choice.

Tell all your friends about us.

Tell your pet about us.

Tell your plants about
us that would be amazing.

Preferably people with podcast
apps, though, that would be better.

In the meantime.

We all want to do something
good in the world.

So go out there and build
something good folks.

I will see you in the next one.

See ya.