Alienation of Affection and Criminal Conversation in North Carolina

We unpack the complex and often controversial legal topics of Alienation of Affection and Criminal Conversation. They discuss the nuances, historical context, and practical implications of these laws, which are still recognized in a few states, including North Carolina. The conversation includes real-life cases, the pros and cons of pursuing such lawsuits, and the potential impacts on all parties involved.

00:00 Introduction and Team Introduction
01:01 Introducing the Topic: Alienation and Criminal Conversation
01:33 Matt's Experience with Alienation Cases
02:16 Legal Nuances and Publicity of Cases
04:43 Breaking Down Alienation and Criminal Conversation
05:50 Defenses and Legal Strategies
07:20 Damages and Case Examples
08:49 Challenges and Considerations in Pursuing Cases
12:53 Mother-in-Law Drama
13:34 Alienation of Affection Law
13:54 Constitutional Concerns
15:41 Jurisdiction Issues
18:18 Office Affairs
21:12 Connivance and Framing

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Creators and Guests

Host

Cameron Heinsohn

Marketing & Business Development Manager

Host

Matt Jackson

Associate Attorney - Focus Areas: Family Law, Divorce, Child Custody, Equitable Distribution, Alimony, and Alienation of Affection. Experience: Over 15 years Practice Areas: Wake, Harnett, Johnston, Chatham, Lee, Durham, and Orange counties

Host

Sarah J. Hink

Attorney/Partner at New Direction Family Law

Producer

Joe Woolworth

Owner of Podcast Cary in Cary, NC. Your friendly neighborhood podcast studio.

What is Ex-it Strategy?

Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.

77 Exit Strategy - Alienation
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Joe: Hello, everybody out there listening. My name is Sarah Hink. I'm one of the, lawyers, partners of New Direction Family Law. We do not have Elizabeth with us today. We are missing her, but she is busy with all sorts of trial stuff and being a great attorney. We do have our lovely cam. Hi. Joining us once again of course, to keep us on track, keep us on topic, keep us flowing, and then we have a man, Matt Jackson, attorney from New Direction Attorney at law.

Attorney at Law, new Direction, family Law. He joined our firm back in July and we are so happy to have him. He has how much experience? Practicing

Matt Johnson: 17 years. 17 years. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: It's a really long time.

Matt Johnson: It is a long time. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: So we're happy to have his [00:01:00] knowledge, his brain with us. And today we have a great topic that we've slightly covered before, I think.

But it's always something that comes up with a lot of our new cases. We're one of the few states that still recognize it. Alienation, affection, and criminal conversation. Yeah. So, and

Cameron Heinsohn: with Matt's experience too, I realized I was like, you know, updating some stuff on the website. With your 17 years, that makes us collectively at a hundred.

Sarah Hink: Oh, a centurion.

Cameron Heinsohn: Uhhuh.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. Great.

Cameron Heinsohn: So you like really, that's really pushed us over the edge. Well, good. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Yes. But so talk about experience I have had. Been on both sides of alienation cases as an attorney, not as a party. Just make clarify, just to clarify. But I've never actually gone all the way to trial, so I've always settled all those.

But Matt, you've actually had a jury trial.

Matt Johnson: I did, yeah. How did that, how did that go? I didn't expect it to go that far either. You know, you usually don't. You usually don't. Um, for us, they're [00:02:00] usually filed as kind of like a side action or something that's going on the side. Um, I don't wanna say for leverage, but a lot of times it's for leverage.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. A

Matt Johnson: lot of times you may not have any intent of going all the way through with it. Mm-hmm. But it's to put, um, you know, if you're representing one spouse, the other spouse has a, a significant other or a mm-hmm. More that they obviously like a lot, you know, in their married for Yeah. Not see their kids for,

Sarah Hink: yeah.

Matt Johnson: Um, then if you start, you know. Pushing that button or putting pressure on them, they may be more willing to settle.

Sarah Hink: Right. And these days, since we move to electronic filing is so easy to find court documents out there, which even myself, I have to stop in some cases and be like, oh, oh, before we filed this just FYI people Google your name in your court documents are gonna pop up now.

Mm-hmm. That wasn't the case in the past. Like you would have, everything was still public record, but you had to like walk your, you had to go

Cameron Heinsohn: [00:03:00] get it. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Go down to the clerks. Office, check out the paper file. Like it was a whole process, but now people can just Google and see it.

Cameron Heinsohn: Mm-hmm. Right. So the dirty laundry is getting out there a little bit.

Sarah Hink: Oh, it's, yes, it's real bad. And, and not just in these kind of cases, but like custody cases. Like, dude, your, your kid's gonna read that eventually one day, or if they're in high school, you know, they're gonna. Their friends are gonna see it.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Sarah Hink: But I digress. But it's, it's bigger leverage now because it's gonna be so public.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah. I didn't really think about like, the publicity part of it as being the leverage. I'm more meant like, you know, I think I assumed, I didn't assumed either. Assumed it was more just like pressure or stress, you know? Yeah. I think for the other party. So I think

Matt Johnson: that's where, you know, when we're doing it, you know, that's what we have in mind is if we're gonna go to court, we're gonna go to court there.

Mm-hmm. We don't, I don't wanna sound like it's, um. Not a good faith lawsuit 'cause it is, but you know, everything's part of a deal or you know. Mm-hmm. Um, but it does come out fast. If there was, uh, one filed against the Panthers receiver a couple months ago. Oh, I miss that. [00:04:00] Steve Smith, y'all, y'all know Steve Smith?

I remember I Ms. Smith. I miss Ty. So he had one filed against him a few months ago in Mecklenburg County. Mm-hmm. And it was, I mean, you could get it just like that. Yeah. Off the internet.

Sarah Hink: What happened to it? Was it dismissed?

Matt Johnson: I don't know what's happened to it. There was that big. It was very detailed though, I can tell you that.

Yeah.

Sarah Hink: There was that one with the politicians. Yeah. I forgot about that one. That was,

Matt Johnson: that was the speaker. No, I don't wanna miss it was a Republican politician. I messed around with a woman and Lasseter was the guy's name. Yeah. That filed it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: We were really vague on the on that one, but that was big when it came out.

I don't remember it so much has happened since this whatever months, you know? Yeah. But for the listeners, let's break down the difference here. We have alienation affection, which is one claim and criminal conversation. Yeah. And typically you file them together. But they're different in essence of what you have to prove.

So like what's

Matt Johnson: the difference?

Sarah Hink: What's the difference, Matt?

Matt Johnson: All right. So criminal conversation is just the [00:05:00] act of having sex with someone else's spouse. Um, so it's just that, um. Alienation's a little more romantic. It's okay. You know, that you're saying the theory is, is that some third parties alienated a person from their spouse.

It could also be their child, it could be any kind of family relationship. It just doesn't have to be spouses, um, that somebody's, you know, done something wrong and as a result has alienated, um, you know, a relationship, one person from the other.

Sarah Hink: Mm-hmm.

Matt Johnson: Yep. So, you know,

Sarah Hink: and, but for that alienation, they would still be in love and happy and married.

Ah, I see. So it's like this third party, like influenced. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So criminal conversation is just like, you know, banging, so you have sex. What about if you're a, what about if you're a swinger and maybe other things, criminal conversations is still a thing. Well, there's defenses to both. Uh, one of them is.

Condemnation. So [00:06:00] like you condone it, you're okay with it, it's chill. So it's a nice swinger situation. Okay. Um, then forgiveness, like you found out you stayed in the marriage, you went to marriage counseling. Mm-hmm. And you stayed married for another five years. So in that case you, you know, people come in, they see us, well, they stepped out, had an affair like five years ago.

I'm like, oh, okay. Well you've been together since then. Yeah.

Matt Johnson: That's forgiveness. Yeah. Can't use that. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Um,

Matt Johnson: con is that one con? Don't think so. Did I make that word up?

Sarah Hink: Yes.

Matt Johnson: Can we cuss on here? Yes. Yes. Alright, good. I guess you wouldn't have had me on here if we couldn't cus

Sarah Hink: but like alienation is just, there's just more involved, so obviously criminal conversation.

I don't even think you have to show that you separated. It's just you had sex. I, these are,

Matt Johnson: that's right.

Sarah Hink: Not the same in these other states. Like I said, we're one of five states that still has it. Okay. And they're more expensive lawsuits. 'cause you hear Matt talk about how you had to go to trial. You have a jury, so the select jury, you had to go through the whole thing.

Yeah, [00:07:00] it's very costly, very expensive. Yeah. There's usually depositions and when you talk about, okay, well what are you gonna, what's gonna, what are you gonna gain from this? Mm-hmm. So if you're the one pursuing it, like my husband left me, Judy is the one to blame, and I go and sue Judy, does Judy have any money for me to get.

I don't know. So like what are you gonna recover? Yeah. Then as far as quantifying what you're gonna recover possibly from the jury, look at your damages. Yeah. So damages could be, you know, loss of income from your spouse. Think about that you're separated and now you don't have them supplementing your income, paying your bills, loss of property.

You know, then there's the like therapy bills. Mm-hmm. So the actual like damages, emotional damage. Mm-hmm. And then like the punitive, you can go what, three times as much as actual damages?

Matt Johnson: Yeah. It goes up to two 50. It's either three times. Actual Or two 50 whichever's greater. Yeah.

Cameron Heinsohn: 2 2 200 50 million

Matt Johnson: [00:08:00] thousand thousand.

Yeah. Oh,

Sarah Hink: okay. So there, there have been some big cases in North Carolina. People got millions in award. You, you had a big case, right?

Matt Johnson: I thought it was pretty decent. I was pretty happy. It wasn't like these ones you see in the newspaper, um, there. I mean, I remember, you see, I saw one. I think the last name was per year.

This guy owned. Mm-hmm. A bunch of like truck or gas or trucking or something.

Cameron Heinsohn: Uhhuh

Matt Johnson: and the, the Paramore was sued and it was like $50 million. A lot of those you see though, is where the Paramore just doesn't show up or d defend it, and so they just rubber stamp and give em what number they want and those people don't have money.

Yeah. So at all

Sarah Hink: Oh, might not have 50 billion. Yeah.

Matt Johnson: It's just. Therapeutic, I think for some people to, uh, you know, hey, you got this judgment hanging over you for 10 or 20 years.

Sarah Hink: Yep. I'm good luck when people come in to have a consult with me about these claims. I usually take the position of, you know, it's expensive to pursue it, what are you gonna gain from it?

Let's look at this person's like, she's

Cameron Heinsohn: [00:09:00] worth the squeeze.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. Like, do you wanna take this money and like, go on a fabulous vacation and like heal that way? Most people. No, fuck 'em. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And they're just like living in this, this state of just, you know, poison and anger and I get it.

Matt Johnson: Or the people that come in that are plaintiffs, and, and I'm not trying to be one way about it, but a lot of 'em in this circumstance are men.

They've done probably some fucked up shit, like during their marriage or done something that they weren't great, you know? Mm-hmm. And you have to tell 'em, like everything you've done as a spouse. Is gonna come into play here. 'cause they're gonna say he did this and that and he was a horrible person. Right.

And then, you know, yeah. You know, to weigh that as well.

Sarah Hink: That's not like a true defense to it. It does persuade the jury. Mm-hmm. And there's been plenty of cases too, on the opposite side of these million dollar awards where the jury says, yeah, I do find that, you know, Judy alienated Sarah from her husband, but Sarah's [00:10:00] kind of a bitch.

And I think that. This was coming down the line and like you could see it, so Judy has to pay Sarah a dollar. You know,

Cameron Heinsohn: like we recognize that she was at fault, but we're not gonna award like Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Hmm. That's right. You have to make sure you put on your damages too, so you can try to get money. If you don't put on damages, then you might just get a dollar.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Sarah Hink: So there's a whole, make sure you get a good attorney, but it, it's messy. It's long. I mean, it takes years typically,

Matt Johnson: and I mean, damages can be just, you know, very. Um, it could just be what you would call pain and suffering, you know, um, just this was a really tough thing for someone to go through. Um, so,

Cameron Heinsohn: and it has to be like it, I mean, in the

Matt Johnson: circumstances, uh, you know, certainly could be.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. But you're, you know, remember you're su suing the third party. You're not suing your ex. Who are you really mad at? Right. Um, but if there's money to be had out there, I don't know. I think it's, it just, I [00:11:00] think it's honestly for wealthy people on both sides, like the one pursuing it. Um, and then I've represented plenty of defendants too mm-hmm.

In these cases. And that's always, you know, I always have their back too. You're your attorney, you're gonna have your clients back on either side and looking at the actual, like, facts of the case and how, what's shaken out since then. Mm-hmm.

Cameron Heinsohn: [00:12:00] you said earlier, it's not always spouses, right?

It can be like, about, it can be like a, you know, mother-in-law. Right. How do you, how are you calculating damages on something like that? Or like, what are, what kind of things are you

Sarah Hink: looking at? It's still the, you know, if you actually, you have to separate for the alienation affection, like your marriage has to end.

Oh, okay. And you have to show, another thing you have to show is that there was love existing mm-hmm. At the time of the alienation. So that's a defense to it too, is like we were in a loveless marriage, we didn't have sex, so. If you're have sex for a year, how are you gonna blame Judy for coming in and, you know, ruining it.

Right. You know, satisfying some needs. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, with a, with a mother-in-law, same kind of situation to show that you're happy and maybe the mother-in-law keeps telling [00:13:00] her son, like, oh, you gotta leave Sarah. Like, she's terrible. Your dad would never approve of this. Go meet my friend Judy. Like really just coming down hard on the relationship.

Right. And then it'd be the same like loss of income. Loss of,

Cameron Heinsohn: okay, I see.

Sarah Hink: Whatever. Okay. Yeah, there's some good dynamics to it. Yeah. And juicy details. Of course. I love it when those, those ones get filed and I just read it. I'm like, oh,

Matt Johnson: scandalous read. Go read the Steve Smith one.

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah, I'm gonna definitely go be nosy and check that out.

Yes. One of the first consults I like, you know, as like I was learning about family law was alienation of affection and I, I thought it was very interesting when I said it, like heard. Mm-hmm. Like kind of how we go about, yeah. Figuring out if this is a thing. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Hink: Now it's not really a law that I support.

Personally. Mm-hmm. I think it's unconstitutional. I I think it stems from like a Matt giggling over here. But you'll, it stems from, like, they'll take

Matt Johnson: that case though if they, [00:14:00] well, yes, but I, I

Sarah Hink: have, as a, for the defendant gone and argued constitutional protections. In, um, trial court and they just kinda like laughed at me.

But that's okay. You gotta be there. You gotta preserve it for appeal. Mm-hmm. Because one day, I mean, there's the reason why there's only five states that have this, and it used to be on the books at almost all of them. Mm-hmm. Because it was taken off, the books were being unconstitutional and it stems from back in the day, women being like, chattel.

So if a man comes and steals your wife, he needs to pay you for her. So think about it that way. Mm-hmm. Im very not big fan. Mm-hmm. No, no. People are not property. And also it's like involuntary servitude. Like, you cannot take my husband 'cause he has to serve me. And so you need to return him kind of Yeah.

Thinking, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways you can come at it. Right. But so far the courts in North Carolina keep upholding it. What

Matt Johnson: it's probably cause women file so many of them, you know, so it kind of undercuts the history. I mean, men

Sarah Hink: file them clearly too. I think they

Matt Johnson: do. I know.

Sarah Hink: Yes.

There's some, there's, I'm UNE Equal, it's, it very, yeah. Women [00:15:00] paras. It's a

Matt Johnson: very two-way street these days. Yeah. Mm-hmm. As far as who gets to file and who gets to collect and, um, yeah, I definitely

Sarah Hink: had men and women equally on these.

Matt Johnson: And I, I wanna say when I was in law school, we were told that there was maybe three states that had alienation.

And so I feel like. There's five now, or maybe even seven. I thought maybe there's four, like I feel like maybe they're coming back. In some states. This is usually when

Sarah Hink: Joe starts googling for us and he just chime in with the right answer. We don't know the law in every

Matt Johnson: state. No, Joe.

Sarah Hink: Damn. This is when we talk about our, um, what's it called?

Notice to people listening that only are licensed to practice in North Carolina. Yes. Only North Carolina is

Cameron Heinsohn: what we're talking about. That's right. We do know there's other states that have it. We don't know what they are. Yeah,

Sarah Hink: and there's been some interesting cases about. Jurisdiction issues. So if someone lives outta state, it's tricky where, you know, and, but they alienated a relationship here in North Carolina, can you sue them?

Well there has to be contact with the state somehow. And there's been some cases where I think that like phone calls mm-hmm. Are enough [00:16:00] sex. Yeah. Just one sex act in North Carolina is enough. Okay. It's that long arm statute. Okay. To take jurisdiction. It's

Matt Johnson: tricky. So like you really have to sit down with it.

Um. And a judge can say a trip to the beach in North Carolina, not good enough. And another judge may, I had a motion to dismiss, say, that is good enough. I don't. Mm-hmm. It's really tricky. It's really something you have to look at. Did this really happen here? In the view of the court, did the tort happen in North Carolina?

Um, certainly if you had sex in the state, criminal conversation should be boom.

Sarah Hink: Yeah.

Matt Johnson: On there. But the alienation, if you're meeting in California and somebody lives here and somebody lives in Texas or something, I, it's really facts specific. You have to really get what evidence you can out, which is the tricky part of the prosecuting the case is getting the evidence before they do a motion to dismiss.

Mm-hmm. Um. Because if you can't prove it happened here, um, or you can't prove, you [00:17:00] know, you know, they wanna claim like a, it's marital communication, so it's privileged. So she confessed, you know, I've seen it go both ways on that. There's a, there's a lot of. Ways it can turn. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. Like nuances and Yeah, for sure.

None of

Matt Johnson: them are slam dunks

Sarah Hink: regardless. This is not an estate to run away and have an affair from other states.

Matt Johnson: No, it is not. It's like the North, North Carolina is not for

Sarah Hink: lovers. I don't know about Virginia, but I think Virginia might be safe. Not

Matt Johnson: for illicit lovers. For illicit love lovers.

Cameron Heinsohn: I'll keep

Sarah Hink: that in mind.

Yeah, please do. Yeah, so I mean, I, I still do counsel on the, on the plaintiff side, just, you know, the downfall to pursuing these claims that they are expensive and stressful, time consuming, and if you have children, like maybe just focus on them. I try to give them just advice from

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Being in it and seeing it from an attorney standpoint, how it can affect people.

Yeah.

Cameron Heinsohn: You guys have seen all the ways this plays out and it. Seems tricky at best.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. Then once you even like the cases that [00:18:00] I settle for the plaintiff and you get some money, like do you really feel vindicated?

Cameron Heinsohn: Yeah.

Sarah Hink: To some degree maybe. Yeah. But only time can tell, I guess. Yeah. And for the defendants who end up settling, oof.

I mean, it's just rough day. Yes. Tough day at the office. Mistakes were made. A lot of them at the office, a lot of cases stem from inner office, uh, you know, relationships developing and. Progressing and ruining marriages, I guess. Yeah, I, yeah,

Cameron Heinsohn: that's a, a topic for a totally different podcast, I think. But why is it always the office or somebody and their client work?

Well, you, it's like, where are you gonna meet a third person?

Matt Johnson: Yeah. It's just,

Cameron Heinsohn: yeah. And then do you wanna, yeah. That's a good point. A lot of my time.

Matt Johnson: Yeah. It's just about being around the other person. I sound like

Cameron Heinsohn: online proximity stuff. Just getting into, you know,

Matt Johnson: most people get in accidents like five miles from their house 'cause that's where they're at most of the time.

So. So you're gonna bang [00:19:00] somebody from your work 'cause that's who you're around all the time. Same exact same situation.

Sarah Hink: Yeah. Get real comfortable.

Cameron Heinsohn: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Good for thought.

Sarah Hink: So, I mean they're very nuanced. Like Matt said, you can get some money. You can just end up losing a ton of money by pursuing it.

You lose money by being on the other side of it. There's the leverage. You can put something in a separation agreement or a contract waiving your right to sue third parties. So like that's kinda what you're buying in those situations where you're settling and like, okay. You want more than 50% of the assets?

No. Oh, but you'll sign a waiver so you won't see my new boyfriend. Okay, fine.

Matt Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Hink: A lot of times people are like, no, I don't care.

Matt Johnson: Let 'em, so adults I care. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Some people do care about their new, their new girlfriend or boyfriend. Oh, it's such,

Sarah Hink: it's such pure love.

Matt Johnson: It is. Yeah.

Sarah Hink: Until you're doing pure.

Until you're doing that worst and then you're conflicted out and you're like, okay, we have to go get a different attorney now. Yeah. [00:20:00] Done this more than once. Yeah, for sure.

Cameron Heinsohn: Oh well.

Sarah Hink: Well, yeah, if you have questions out there, I don't know if Joe ever found the answer. I would look, he's 6, 6, 6 states. Name them in alphabetical order.

Joe: Hawaii, North Carolina, Mississippi, New Mexico, South Dakota, Utah.

Sarah Hink: Boom. Perfect.

Cameron Heinsohn: Thanks Joe. And wait, Utah. Utah. That one is the most surprising, I think. Is it because don't they have polygamy there?

Sarah Hink: I don't think the polygamy is legal. No,

Matt Johnson: I I bet it's there. It's certainly there. It's probably not legal, but you, if you had polygamy though, then you'd definitely need that law place.

What state is

Sarah Hink: the sister wives thing happening? It's

Matt Johnson: Utah. You're thinking of Utah.

Sarah Hink: But yeah, I think that they just kind of turned their head at it.

Matt Johnson: But you would definitely want these causes of action in place. If you got five wives. It's

Sarah Hink: lot to keep anyone up with. Yeah, so like five tops, the damages.

Oh, Utah's interesting state. They're also the biggest receiver of like Medicaid and Medicare. Oh yeah. 'cause think of all those children that [00:21:00] the wives don't work. There's so many of them. So the government supports them.

Matt Johnson: I didn't know that. That's a different topic. I was looking, the Ivans is a defense.

Sarah Hink: Tell me more. And

Matt Johnson: this is, uh, I don't know if you watch, it's always sunny in Philadelphia. Yes, yes. Uh, there's, you know, there's something called a frame bank where you frame, you frame somebody having sex, that would be a connivance

Sarah Hink: Oh. Issue

Matt Johnson: where they somehow, the person suing for, for alien alienation has played some part in setting this up or something.

What, you know, what have you. I don't know. I bet that does happen. Um, like, you know, I've heard, I don't, I've never seen this, but I've heard like some guys hiring these like male model types to like go after their wife to like get 'em to do something so they can divorce 'em with no alimony, don't

Sarah Hink: have any alimony,

Matt Johnson: never seen it in person or anything, but

Sarah Hink: sneaky.

What do we look for? I guess payments to the third hot body,

Matt Johnson: I guess. So how about an unrealistic, [00:22:00] you know, situation that happens to you? I don't know. I don't know.

Cameron Heinsohn: Interesting. Oh, I think she was asking like, what are we looking for as attorneys? Oh,

Matt Johnson: I was talking like, you, you're at the bar. What, like, how could you tell if their interest is legitimate or not?

I,

Sarah Hink: I was trying to think like, how do I find this paid off person? Yeah. Movement of money maybe. I don't know.

Matt Johnson: Because it's, it's sketchy. You know, I had a. Um, consult at some point in the past where, you know, the lady's like, this guy's sending me Facebook messages about how we met up, or whatever. And she's never heard from the guy.

So I mean, there, it would not put, I would not put it past. Mm-hmm. There's people out there doing, you know, connives

Sarah Hink: Yeah.

Matt Johnson: That are framing people.

Sarah Hink: I mean, we've had a case with fake phone calls using ai. Yep. And you wouldn't catch it. An attorney wouldn't catch it.

Matt Johnson: Yeah.

Sarah Hink: It's really difficult. Stuff scary that people can scary.

Manipulate out there. Scary. Yeah, it is

Matt Johnson: so

Sarah Hink: well, ain't that some shit? It's, ain't that some [00:23:00] shit?