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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Jeremy: Alright, I'm gonna jump
into this in just a second and
finish making fun of, No, I'm not,
not even close to finish making fun
of Keanu Reeves accents in this.
alright.
Ben: It's Keanu's accents.
Emily: Accents, plural, very important.
Ha ha
Heath: ha.
Jeremy: Whatever one
seems to fit at the time.
Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified, the podcast
where we hold horror to progressive
standards it never agreed to.
Tonight, we're talking about the 90s
thriller about Law of the Devil and
the many accents of Keanu Reeves.
It's the Devil's Advocate.
I am your host Jeremy Whitley and
with me tonight I have a panel
of cinephiles and Cenobites.
First they're here to challenge
the sexy werewolf sexy vampire
binary my co host Ben Kahn.
Ben How are you tonight?
Ben: Sure is weird.
We're doing two devil
incest movies in a row.
Jeremy: Yeah two devil's incest
movies and then weirdly we're gonna
be doing two Keanu Reeves Doing
unaccented movies this month as well.
Ben: Well that I knew we were doing
but Devil incest is one of those,
it's weird it happened twice moments.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co host Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: I'm good.
I'm thinking about the
relationship between Angel
Heart and the Devil's Advocate.
I feel like there's an
essay to be written there.
but I'll just have to be satisfied with
the essay that I wrote as the recap of
this movie, this two hour, 30 minute long
movie.
Jeremy: It is a, quite a length of film.
and our first time guest tonight, a
friend of mine, fellow comics writer
and writer of TV shows like Animal
Kingdom, Justice League Action,
Scream, and many DC animated films.
And very importantly to us.
The Scary Godmother
Halloween Spooktacular.
It's Heath Gorshin!
Heath, welcome to the show!
Heath: Hi!
Thank you, Jeremy, this is spooktacular!
And I will weigh in right away and
say yes, this movie is too long.
This movie is way too long.
It feels like Scorsese
directed this movie.
It's
Emily: fun, but Well,
I wish it was Scorsese.
Ben: I have to admit, I
found it pretty breezy.
like, for as long as this movie is,
it took me way less time to watch it
than a lot of 90 minute movies take me.
Heath: Interesting.
Interesting.
This movie
Jeremy: realized, seems to realize
at about 90 minutes that it's gonna
go long, so it's like, let's throw
in a lot of boobs right now, like,
Ben: let's, let's get the boobs in here.
There's a
Heath: lot, there's a lot
of everything in this movie.
Oh yeah.
There's a lot of everything.
Emily: Incest, Vodon well, not quite.
I mean, it's allusions to the
thing that they think is Vodon.
Ben: This movie loves porn.
Both.
Sexual, wealth, and New York.
Heath: Yeah, yeah.
Al Pacino jumps on a table
and dances with a dancer.
And just is having the time of his life.
And it feels like nobody
gave him choreography.
It looks like, it really looks
like nobody gave him a step.
He was just like, I'm just gonna do this.
Jeremy: Taylor Hackford just came up and
was like, you're gonna do this and then
Al Pacino was like, no, no, no, I got it.
I'm fine.
Yeah.
Heath: Yeah.
You just, just, just keep rolling.
Ben: Pacino is having an 11 this
whole film and it's incredible.
Yeah.
Jeremy: It's like a Pacino 7,
but an 11 for everybody else.
Ben: And then Keanu's accent game.
is so inconsistent and weird
to a level we would not see
until Tom Hardy played Venom.
Jeremy: It has a lot in common
with Tom Hardy's Venom, if I'm
honest, because sometimes he
really tries to do the Southern
accent, especially if he's yelling.
He's like, listen, this is the
part where I'm going to put my
accent in, it's going to come out.
And then like, there are a lot of points,
Like Tom Hardy's accent, like any accent
that's not Benedict Cumberbatch's accent
that Benedict Cumberbatch does, where
he's like, What if I just growled?
Like, what if I just talked low?
Ben: He seems to come from the
deep Georgia part of Florida.
Heath: I agree.
I was like, what is going on?
Then they're like, oh,
it's, it's Gainesborough.
I was like, what is this?
Where are they from?
Yeah, I had an issue with it.
Jeremy: They're from Gainesville,
it's a bit in the country.
It's not as country as you could be
in Florida, but he does also, when Al
Pacino is reading to him, like what
he's done, they said that he spent four
years in the Jacksonville DA's office,
which has to be A whole other movie.
That's a wild fucking film.
Jacksonville is the craziest place.
Ben: I would love to see a movie that's
just like Keanu and Jacksonville.
Can we reflect on the sheer fucking
absurdity that we actually got a movie
starring Keanu Reeves and Charlize
Theron and it's not an action film?
Right?
Yeah!
And that's how you know it's a 20th
century movie, because yeah, like two
of the biggest action icons of the 21st
century in a religious horror drama.
Heath: I do believe, now, correct me if
I'm wrong, is this Charlize's first fill?
Jeremy: it's her fifth credit overall.
Like, oh, it's much before this.
Ben: She's great in this movie.
Yeah, yeah.
Heath: This is 97, so we are
actually, like what, three
years after Keanu did Speed.
So he is off of Speed as one of the
Biggest action film character, actors
on the planet and he is riding high.
I mean, I will say after that,
he does Johnny Mnemonic, which
makes it falter, but we're, we're
two years from Matrix, right?
Ben: This is very much in that era where
Hollywood, which an era, which included
the Matrix, if we're being honest,
where Hollywood really didn't know
what the fuck, how to use Keanu Reeves.
Emily: Right?
They were just using it for everything.
They were just like, stick Keanu in there.
People love Keanu.
Jeremy: And we've talked about,
we've talked about Coppola's.
Dracula on this and
Ben: that's, um, Oh, that was
the Keanu accent, that's alright.
Emily: That movie, like, I always forget
that Keanu Reeves is in that movie.
Jeremy: There's so much in that movie that
it's easy to forget some of the things.
Emily: Why isn't that movie two
hours and thirty minutes long?
Heath: Yeah.
Jeremy: I mean, there's two
hours and thirty minutes worth of
stuff that goes on in that movie.
They just really pack it in.
Ben: Like, there's some actors
who really do, like, Develop and
grow over the decades and, like,
become more versatile actors.
Keanu never stopped being Keanu.
Hollywood just figured out how
to, like, just work around that.
Heath: Yeah.
Yeah,
Jeremy: he has some very solid roles
in there and I think he has gotten
better at figuring out just sort of like
some acting stuff in non action roles.
Ben: I mean, I will say, accent
craziness aside, I actually do think
Keanu Reeves is very good in this movie.
Emily: I do too, like, he has some
really great scenes, it's just, he's,
like, if you just take the accent
out, like, if he just was like,
okay, I'm not gonna do an accent,
I'm just gonna be Keanu, saying shit.
Jeremy: Here's the wild thing for
me, is I had this thought as I was
watching it, which is like, It's weird
to suggest replacing an actor that I
really like, both as an actor and as
a person, with somebody that I'm not
crazy about as a person, but if this
was Matthew McConaughey in this role,
how much more sense would that make?
Ben: Well, at least the
accent would have made sense.
Also, what's your beef
with Matthew McConaughey?
Emily: Yeah, I'm curious now.
Jeremy: I mean, let's not go into that.
Okay.
Too long.
He's a strange man.
Heath: I believe that it was
originally supposed to be Brad Pitt.
And you buy Brad Pitt as a Florida bohawk.
Like, you get that.
You go, oh yeah.
Ben: If we had this with Brad Pitt,
you could have had a whole month
of just Brad Pitt devil movies.
Emily: What are the devil movies?
Ben: I can actually only ever
think of the one other devil
movie, if I'm being honest.
But maybe there's a few others.
There's the one where, like, he gets hit
by all the cars and then the devil takes
over his body so he can fall in love.
Oh, that's death.
Oh, right.
Emily: Okay, cause I'm like, there's
an interview of the vampire, but that's
not like the literal devil doesn't show
up, it's just like some devilish shit.
Jeremy: There are a few places in this
Where when you watch it, it sounds
like the script is wrong, but then,
like, if you just take the line out
and you re pronounce it in your head
in Matthew McConaughey's accent,
you're like, oh, no, I, I get it.
There's one where, like, I think it's
Oh Baby that he says, like, in the
hallway, Charlize Theron says something
to him, that, like, she's flirting with
him, and, you know, suggesting that
they should go have sex, and, like,
his, His read of it is like, oh baby!
where it's like, it should
be, oh baby, like, and he just
doesn't have that register in his
acting.
Emily: Like, we should
do an alternate dub.
It's like a phantom edit, but
it's a phantom dub of The Devil's
Advocate where all of Keanu
Jeremy: Me dubbing him
as Matthew McConaughey?
Emily: Or get Matthew McConaughey to do
it, which I don't know if we, I don't know
if we want to get you guys in the same
Ben: project.
Keanu delivers.
So much of his dialogue like he ad libbed
it, but it's like, too good, too well
constructed to actually be ad libbed.
Like, when they go to his fuckin like,
office, which is a literal circle on fire,
a literal circle of hell for an office.
Yeah.
Because there's no bedroom.
And they're doing, where does he sleep?
Who says he sleeps?
Where does he fuck?
And then Pacino just, he just shouts
everywhere from across the room.
Yeah.
Heath: Yeah.
I just,
Jeremy: I feel like this is what it's
like to spend time without Pacino,
is like, just a normal person.
Heath: this movie is a visceral
reaction to Jack Nicholson's
Witches of Eastwick, which was 10
years ago when this movie came out.
Ben: Which we also
covered a few months ago.
Heath: And I feel like Pacino, in
this movie, And De Niro in Angel Heart
sort of said, Hold my fucking beer.
If Jack can do this part,
I get to do this part.
And I'm gonna do it bigger,
louder, more me than anybody else.
And, and that's kind of
what this feels like.
Is, is Pacino's like, All right,
watch me do Jack Nicholson now.
Ooh, ah, here we go.
Let's fire it up.
Ben: I agree with you entirely.
I do feel like between De Niro and Pacino,
like Oh, I hate to do this, Robbie,
but like, no disrespect to De Niro, I
kind of feel like Pacino ate his lunch,
in terms of like, devil performances.
Oh,
Emily: absolutely!
Heath: He eats everybody's lunch.
He eats everybody's lunch in this
literally, I heard Pacino ate
people's lunch in this movie.
He just went around and just stuck his
finger in people's lunches and ate it.
He goes, what are you gonna do?
He ate all the scenery.
He ate everything.
It's
Jeremy: very different, though.
It's very different devils, because,
like, every time Al Pacino is on
screen in this, my reaction is, more.
I want more of this.
Yeah, sure.
Every time De Niro is on screen in Angel
Heart, I'm like, oh, fuck this guy.
Ben: I feel like the sexuality of
how the characters are presented
are different, because I feel like
in Witches of Eastwick, it's more
of, like, a character choice of,
like, isn't it funny seeing Jack
Nicholson play this, Silly, horny guy.
Whereas I feel like one of the
explicit goals of Devil's Advocate
is convincing the audience, like,
Hey, Al Pacino, the actor, he fucks.
Yeah.
We're worried you don't know that
Al Pacino fucks, and we really want
you to know that Al Pacino fucks.
Heath: He has a whole monologue
about how, yeah, you might
not think I fuck, but I fuck.
Yeah!
You're like Well, no one asked.
Ben: No one cares.
It feels very personal.
Heath: Very personal.
He's like, you don't get it.
I sneak up on you and I fuck.
And you're like, what?
What?
The question was, how is your bagel?
Jeremy: Well, my bagel reminded
me a little bit of an asshole,
which is, yeah, that I also fuck.
Ben: Can we talk about the most
logical part of the whole movie?
Which is Don King being
friends with the devil.
Heath: Sure.
That's shit.
I did
Jeremy: wonder if everybody told Don
King that he was playing the devil in
this movie before they had him do that.
Cause like, if Don King just
thought he was shaking hands
with an Al Pacino character.
Ben: Did Don King even know they were
filming a movie or did they just show up
at a fight and then Don King was like,
Oh shit, Al Pacino, I'm gonna go say hi.
Al Pacino's here.
Yeah.
Al
Heath: Pacino is
Emily: from Keanu Reeves.
Hot, hot new star Keanu Reeves
are here to like, yell and shit.
And they're
gonna say, hi.
Jeremy: My other thing that's wild that
I feel like if you were to pitch somebody
on this now, instead of in 1997, if you
were like, all right, it's this movie,
and Keanu Reeves is married to Charlize
Theron, but there's this other hot
woman that's trying to break up their
marriage, played by Connie Nielsen.
People would be like, are you sure
Heath: you don't have.
Ben: Oh yeah, yeah, very much
Jeremy: so.
Connie Nielsen, very
attractive in this movie.
But also, I was like, Connie
Ben: Nielsen It's like if Marco Robbie
was the first wife in Wolf of Wall Street.
Right, right.
Like, you're already with Charlize Theron.
Like, you can't go up from here.
Jeremy: Charlize Theron's accent
in this is not perfect, but it does
sound like somebody from Florida.
She is from somewhere in Florida.
I buy it, especially when she yells,
she leans into it in a way that really
works, in a way that Keanu's doesn't.
but like, she's incredibly good in this.
And this is also the rare horror movie
where I'm just like, If I'm Keanu
Reeves in this, take away all the evil
stuff I've done, but really just like
the way she is acting and the things
she's doing, and the things I'm seeing,
might be a little hard to believe.
Ben: Charlize is great.
She is fucking, she is honestly outacting
Keanu and keeping up with Pacino.
Yeah.
But unfortunately, not even Charlize
Theron can pull off the screaming bloody
murder line, They took my ovaries.
Heath: Right.
I mean,
Ben: that's a tough line
for any actress to pull off.
Emily: Yeah, like, that's a way to put it.
That is definitely, someone in the
writer's room being like, so how do
we make this subtext text you guys?
Heath: And since we are talking about
the writers, I mean, I just want to call
out this movie is credited to Jonathan
Lemkin and the great Tony Gilroy, who
rewrote this movie for Taylor Hackford.
Yeah, it's pretty astounding because
Out of context, any single scene of
this movie is written kind of well.
Like, there's some parts that
you go like, oh, that's a good
Ben: scene.
Heath: Once you realize it
connects to absolutely nothing,
it becomes a huge failure.
Like, they're not, none of the scenes
add to anything, and none of them
have any sort of character arc.
But like, you see a scene and you go,
That was a kind of an interesting scene.
Those people said stuff to each
other and and they're talking
about some interesting things.
It feels like they're talking about
Milton and Paradise Lost and the
notion of desire and you go, well
this this might be a deep movie.
It is not.
Spoiler.
Jeremy: It is a base level
religious Christian parable.
I feel like, yeah, I feel like even more.
From somebody that really knows
very little about Christianity, it
feels like, I don't, I don't know, I
don't know Tony Gilroy, I don't know
Jonathan Lempkin, or Andrew Niederman,
who's, you know, wrote the book.
The book,
Ben: yeah.
I mean, honestly, you look at, especially
like, the plot of the movie with like,
You know, the charismatic corrupting
mentor, the, uh, Hodge pod protagonist.
Urban.
Yeah.
The inspiration for this movie, far
more than Paradise Lost, is Wall Street.
Heath: Uh huh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And Faust.
Emily: And Faust.
And a weird, like, it's, it's interesting
because the supernatural element
of this is, feels really tacked on.
The more, like, The more times I
watched it, it felt super tectonic.
You
Ben: don't like it when Predator
takes out, when like, the invisible
homeless people take out pedophile
vice principal from Ferris Bueller?
I mean I mean, I like that
part, I'm not gonna lie.
We don't have to have that.
I really like seeing that particular
actor get pummeled to death.
Yeah,
Emily: like, that's fun.
I mean, we don't have to make any comment
about class, but like, I also kind
Jeremy: of Jeffrey punchable
Heath: face.
I don't know what
Emily: it is.
Oh my god.
There's a, there's a punchability to that.
It's the
Ben: cri it's the crimes.
The crimes, yeah.
The, the, the
Emily: putteracity and all that shit.
Maybe you had Keanu Reeves defend him.
That not him.
Ben: I mean, I think you hit the
nail on the head with like, every
individual CSF, cause like, I had
so much fun, I found this to be
like, honestly a really entertaining
watch, I like this movie a lot.
The idea is that like, we are going to
show the gradual corruption, of Keanu.
It's hard to have it be an arc when
the starting point is he's getting off,
like, ahead of, like, sexual molesting
teachers that he knows is guilty.
Yeah, that's right.
Like, that's point, that's point A.
Where's point B even go from there?
Jeremy: Right.
That not only is guilty, but, like,
is Miming under the table, molesting
a child as she's discussing it.
So
Ben: gross.
In the courtroom.
And the smile he gives the mirror.
He's fucking like, well, time
to get a pedophile off smile.
And I
Heath: for one was hugely distracted
by the casting of Heather, uh,
I'm going to say her name wrong.
Mattrezzaro from Welcome to the Dollhouse.
This is like two years after
Welcome to the Dollhouse.
I'm very distracted by the fact that
she's so good and she's got this awful
Ben: part.
Yeah, and I recognize there's
Martha Meeks from the Scream movies.
Oh yeah, he's in the Scream movie too.
Other moments that were really
weirdly distracting Delroy Lindo is
in this movie and they don't cut him.
Play
Heath: a
Jeremy: voodoo priest for
Heath: two scenes.
Ben: Am I not supposed to
realize that that's Delroy Lindo?
And
Heath: a very wealthy voodoo
priest, by the way, who's got like
tons of money for some reason.
Emily: I want to know the movie
Heath: about that guy.
No, that was a studio note.
You could, like, that is such a studio
note, which was like, wait a minute.
How did the guy who lives in a basement
with tongues in his refrigerator
have this money to hire them?
And they're like, oh, we'll fix it.
Don't worry.
So they, they, they throw in that
line like, oh, he is got $15 million.
Ben: Like, what?
Emily: Yeah, which is interesting
'cause like you have Al Pacino
say it and you know, you're right.
Like the, this movie is basically
like a bunch of little one act plays.
Yes.
Yeah.
And then, you know, and each
play is nice, but like, yeah,
there's no arc, Keanu has no arc.
Like, he starts at, you know, he,
he basically has to have someone be
like, you're the, you know, spoilers,
your dad is the actual devil.
And, like, killed your wife or something.
No, wait!
It's
Ben: like two hours into the movie
does Keanu realize that his boss is
the That his boss named John Milton
whose office is a flaming circle
and has been corrupting everything.
Heath: And, to make matters worse,
that guy was pretending to be a
waiter in 66 when his mom was in town?
Like, I don't buy that this
guy was a waiter on any level.
There's no level that I see.
Emily: Doing like something on the
side, like, you know, he's like, I'm
going, this is my grand master plan.
Right.
I'm gonna fuck this Baptist, like, Bible
thumper kid, and then make the Antichrist.
With her kid and like, I mean,
I guess if you look at it,
Heath: it takes a week, he
waits on her for a week and
sleeps with her on the last day.
Now, if you're the fucking devil, you
could sleep with her right off the bat,
but no, he's like, you know what I need?
I
Ben: need a week.
You're right.
That's the most unrealistic part of
this movie is that Pacino waited a week.
Waited
Heath: a week!
Ben: Also, I was looking up some
trivia about this movie, and it
turns out that the pedophile teacher
at the beginning now runs the State
Department of Education under DeSantis.
That's true.
Heath: That's not true.
Ben: Come on.
That's Chris Bauer.
That's Chris Bauer.
I'm just taking DeSantis because
he's an evil fascist fuckface.
Okay, okay, okay.
Heath: Yeah, and
Jeremy: I do want to say We
talked a little bit of shit about
how this movie comes together.
Uh, it is directed by Taylor Hackford,
who is also responsible for An Officer
and Gentleman, Against All Odds Bound by
Honor Dolores Claiborne, Ray, which, uh,
I believe he won an Oscar for as well.
So like, he's, you know,
he's, he's got Bound by Honor.
Heath: Yeah, current president
of the DGA since 2009.
Ben: It's a well directed movie.
I mean, I said, I really like this movie.
I had a lot of fun watching it.
I really enjoyed this one.
It's well made.
I mean, there's, it feels 90s in
that it's a movie where it's like,
yeah, we're a big budget movie.
We're in adult drama.
We don't give a fuck about
appealing to anyone but adults.
We're gonna be horny.
We do not care about franchises or IPs.
True.
And also we're gonna say the biggest
evil in the world is lawyers.
Like the whole thing just felt
really like late 90s in that regard.
Heath: And I guess just to put
it into a historical perspective,
this movie got put into turnaround
and got fast tracked after what?
Ben: The O.
J.
trial.
Yeah, yeah.
Heath: Lawyers are the
worst thing on the planet.
So they thought, Oh,
what if they were demons?
Ben: Tell me that, like, uh, Pacino's,
like, right hand man who recruits
Keanu, like, tell me that guy isn't
just meant to be Johnny Cochran.
Heath: Of
Emily: course he is!
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then the comment, there's like a
weird comment that Keanu makes in the
beginning about, like, oh, you're black.
Oh, he goes, yeah, he goes
Ben: like, oh, he's like, oh, what
a good prank, you being black.
It's like, what the fuck?
It's That
Jeremy: field is accurate to Florida.
to Gainesville as possible.
I, I heard him say that and
I was like yeah, actually.
Ben: At that club.
Now I know this is a movie about
the devil, but when the mom refers
to New York, when the incredibly
religious rural Florida lady calls
New York a dwelling place of demons.
We all know what she means, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
We know what that's fuckin
the dog whistle for.
Yeah.
Heath: That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a, that's a you people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben: I know what I'm fuckin That's
a lot of different you people, too.
I know what I'm bein
fuckin targeted, and hi.
Heath: Oh, yeah.
Ben: Oh, she
Jeremy: means Craig T.
Nelson.
Ben: Craig T.
Nelson.
When I realized that Craig T.
Nelson was Up in New York.
Craig T.
Nelson, the like, What if Donald
Trump did a triple murder?
Yeah.
Like, that fucking apartment.
That crazy ass, like, Fucking New Jersey
meets Versailles Gold as fuck apartment.
It's straight out of, that's
Heath: straight out of Trump Tower.
Ben: Oh, Trump does get a
name drop in this movie.
He does!
Heath: He does!
Emily: He was supposed to be at
the party, but he had a business
emergency, so he couldn't be there.
Business
Ben: emergency!
Yeah.
Jeremy: He had some people to
go kick out of their houses.
Yeah, also, the, the character in Craig T.
Nelson, who is ultimately sleeping
with his stepdaughter in this story,
or at least implied to be sleeping
with his stepdaughter in this story.
Yep.
Who has been very mad about the
fact that he can't have unsupervised
visits with his stepdaughter, who he
really loves throughout the movie.
And then, like, gets to get back near
her once he gets exonerated, and then
is, like, creepily rubbing her back.
And Keanu's like, oh, I've
done something wrong now.
It's like
Heath: Yeah, that's
the moment Again, like,
Emily: now?
This is your Your wife just killed
herself, or your wife is, you know Yeah,
like this I can't remember where that
Ben: was.
Yeah, that's the thing,
like, that should work.
As a very effective step on his
road of corruption, but where it
is in the movie, you're like, but
the events I just read it again.
It's like, why is this so how much worse
is this than where you started in Florida?
Heath: Right?
Emily: Right?
Honestly, like, I'm kind of with
him in the point where I'm hanging
out with Al Pacino, like, so far,
nothing really objectionable.
I mean, there's a few objectionable
things that have been going
on that are like explicit.
But like, the dude, like,
I'll get into it, the recap.
The wildest
Ben: part of this movie is when the
Al Pacino, the devil, is being More
emotionally healthy and mature?
Like, there's that wild scene where
he's like, Hey, maybe quit this
case, and like, go help your wife?
Like, maybe don't defend this clear
murderer, and instead help your
wife not have a psychotic breakdown?
that's the responsible thing to do, and
Keanu, again, we get in the last scene
of his own free will, he goes, Nah.
Emily: Yeah, and that's the, that's one
of the very interesting things about the
devil situation in this movie is that the
interpretation of the devil as an enabler.
Is always really interesting to me,
like, that being, like, you can't,
he can't make you do anything.
He gives you the choice.
And the conversation that
Keanu has with him at the end.
Where he's talking about, well, this was
entrapment and all this kind of stuff.
And he's like, no, if you remember.
You said Yes and to all
of these things, right?
Like I just was here giving
you money and you could've, you
know, not, you could've said no.
Anytime.
Now that's more
Ben: complicated.
You could've painted the apartment green.
Emily: Yeah.
And that's more complicated, of
course, because like, he's been, he's,
he's offering all this temptation
and all this kind of stuff, but at
the, at the bottom line, you know,
he did give Kevin Lomax choices.
Now, if this movie had
more to do with like.
Who the devil is and all this kind of
shit, like, I think it might have been a
little bit more interesting, like, I feel
like there's, there was a point where, you
know, the fact that he was like in there
boiling fucking holy water with his finger
and I'm like, you know, he was trying to,
Ben: I mean, I love it.
Yeah, that fucking works for me.
I, I, I, I dug
Emily: that.
I love it.
I just feel like it's a different movie.
Like, that's the prophecy.
Like, that's the movie the
price was supposed to be.
And then.
You know, and the prophecy had a
more like involved supernatural plot.
It just didn't do it very well.
And then we had like, we have a
very interesting discussion to make
about law and capitalism and choice.
And, you know, and all these
things, and also, we're gonna pick
the Antichrist on a fuckin altar
in my apartment, like, you know,
something's Rosemary's Baby, and, yeah,
Ben: like, the devil's
want comes really late in
Heath: this movie, like, his
want comes super late, and we're
just like, wait, that's it?
Like, that's the thing
you've been pushing?
And by the way, it's a piss poor plan.
It's a bad plan that you've got one guy,
and you've got one shot at this, and you
thought this whole buildup was gonna work?
Like, this is a
Ben: bad plan, dude.
Like, no, it's such a bad plan, like,
his only plan, like, I've seen Secession.
His plan is to, like, engineer a fail son.
Emily: Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, and like just
Ben: get any random fucking
fascist that came that comes
out of a British boarding school
Emily: Trump's right there like that's the
real story and Donald Trump by the way.
Ben: They're speaking of this
Heath: Emily.
Yes Everything about this movie seems
sort of quaint, like all the horrible
things everybody does, I just go, oh, I'd
like to go back to a time when we were
all horrified by these things, like, this
feels so fucking tame, and we have people
that are theoretically not the devil.
doing things that are a
thousand times worse right now.
So this, I wish I could go back to
the time that this movie is talking
about because everyone is so horrified.
I think
Ben: the only thing in this movie
that's as offensive now as it
was then is Pacino's hair dye.
Sure.
I
Emily: mean, let him have it.
Let him have that one.
Of all of the murder and genocide, one
Ben: thing I'll let him have is hair dye.
You know what, that's gender
affirming care in its own right.
That's right, sure.
Jeremy: So, here's the thing for me, and
I think as writers you guys will feel
this, and part of the reason that, like,
You, you, there are so many scenes in this
that you're like, ah, yeah, great scene.
Didn't belong in this movie.
It's just like, this feels like
there were zero darlings harmed
in the making of this movie.
Yeah.
No,
Ben: no darlings were killed.
Yeah.
Every idea you
Heath: had
Jeremy: made it in there.
Not all of them work.
Ben: Screenplay, editor,
camera, how do I know?
You want to know how
Heath: Al Pacino sticks his finger in
Jeremy: the holy water?
Fuckin cool.
Doesn't belong there.
Ben: The ultimate darling that was not
killed in this movie, and the ultimate
example of, I really can't tell how
much Al Pacino ad libbed, is the entire
scene that's just Al Pacino talking
about this awesome chicken he knows
that plays tic tac toe and never loses.
That they don't show!
They don't show the chicken!
It's the biggest I kept waiting!
I'm like, I kept expecting it to be
like Chekhov's tic tac toe chicken.
Yeah, like, they had the
Emily: whole fucking CGI, like,
hellscape, like, of people making
out behind fucking Al Pacino, but
they can't give us one tic tac toe
Ben: chicken?
I honestly thought it was gonna be
like, Devil, it's gonna, it was gonna
be like fucking, uh, 7th, whatever,
like, with Death, or the other Keanu
Reeves movie where they I'm with you.
That was such a missed opportunity.
Yeah, I thought it was gonna be like
I was expecting like, hey, hey, Al
Pacino, devil, I challenge you to a
game, and he's like, yeah, sure, and
he's like, Well, I have tic tac toe,
and my standard, the chicken, who knows?
Oh, that's good.
That's really good.
And like, no, the chicken never
Heath: loses, I'm fucked!
That's good, my version would be beat
one, they talk about the chicken, beat
two, they go see the chicken, right?
And he's got that line where
he's like, you're like that
chicken, and I'm like, okay.
And then beat three is they have dinner
and Pacino gives a little smile and
he's like, guess what you're eating?
The tic tac toe chicken.
And then I'm like, Oh shit!
I'm just eating
Ben: you.
That Pacino is also the chicken's dad.
He's also the chicken's dad.
And that's why the chicken never loses.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Turn into
Ben: a chicken.
He's like, he's like shit.
Well, I guess I got to go back to
the, like the chicken antichrist plan.
That's a good idea.
Heath: The one other,
Jeremy: before we just like, drop
into the recap here, because we
do need to get that eventually.
Is the, the one scene that really bothered
me as it was happening, is the scene
where he is having sex with his wife.
And she keeps turning into Connie
Nielsen's character throughout the
thing, and he has very little reaction.
If anything, he's like, yeah, cool.
there's
no point where he's like, I was
definitely just fucking a different woman.
Hold on, like, this is
not, this is not okay.
Even if, like, even if he's pretty
okay with cheating on her, which really
just makes the last scene a lot harder
to swallow, that he's, like, seeing
somebody else, like, he's seeing this
woman he clearly wants to fuck while
fucking his wife, and he's cool with
that, and then, like, at the end, when
he's, like, the devil's like, actually,
my plan is for you to fuck this woman
you already wanted to fuck, it's, like,
Heath: Huh,
Ben: that scene has to be a
point where at least it'd be,
Jeremy: like, a little
unnerved by the situation.
Ben: If he hadn't mentioned that
they were siblings, Pacino's
whole plan would have worked.
Heath: Right?
Yeah!
By the way, tell
Ben: him later!
Yeah,
Heath: yeah, I wrote I wrote down during
that scene This is the most belabored
sex scene with beautiful people that
I've ever seen in my life Like it is
so awkward with like the most beautiful
people that you're excited to see them
having sex and it's so Belabored and
he sucks on her toe in this awkward
Ben: way Oh, just like, I know,
just like, hey, just throwing
a bone to the feet people
Heath: I was like, what is happening?
Emily: You don't suck
show until the devil shows
Heath: up, right?
And then she's like, where are you?
And I was like, if her, if his seeing
the other woman takes him out of what
he's doing, then isn't that a bad plan?
Like, aren't you doing the wrong thing?
Ben: The sex thing that worried me the
most of the movie was the scene where
Keanu bites Charlize's earring off.
I agree with them.
I'm not sure what the mechanics
of that word, but I'm worried.
I was worried about that as well.
Emily: I think it was kind of like, it
was some sort of like, tying the cherry
stem in a knot kind of trick that he did.
And it's very like, a throwaway
thing and their whole like, a
relationship is very passionate.
You know, and I feel like it's a little
overboard in a couple ways where I'm
like, why are you're, you just walked
out of this church and I know you're
supposed to be like this flashy lawyer
that just fucking, you know, defended
a pedophile in one you know, and then
now the fact that you guys are all like,
you know, making out in front of the
church is like, oh, isn't that cute?
And I'm like, which
one's the devil in this
Heath: one?
Yeah, right?
Right?
Also,
Jeremy: the fact that the mom seems
to hate Shirley's Theron when they
first go to the church to see her.
And the next time we will see the
mom, she loves Shirley's Theron.
That's the best thing that's
ever happened to her son.
Everything's great, and because she's
now, I guess, I guess because she's seen
the man that she had sex with 40 years
ago and hasn't changed a day since then.
Now she's like, well, at least
she's, at least she's got this.
Ben: Wait, wait a
Heath: minute.
I want to, I want to jump in on this.
Talk more about that, Jeremy.
Are you picturing in 1966 that
Pacino looks exactly the same?
Ben: Yes.
That's incredible.
I like this way better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's incredible.
It's not godfather one Pacino.
It's.
Devil's Advocate Pacino still.
That's
Heath: incredible.
Jeremy: If you had seen this guy, and he
didn't act like Al Pacino, he just acted
like a waiter, who, you know, quoted
verses of the Bible to you, and like, 30
years later, you came to New York and you
saw this Pacino in the elevator, would you
immediately pick him out as the same guy?
Would you be like, hmm.
I mean, maybe if it's If this
is, like, her trauma, I guess,
maybe, but, like I think
Emily: maybe, like, I
mean, he could've been
Jeremy: a had the attitude
of a waiter at a restaurant?
Because that's the hardest
part to imagine for me.
Bartender, maybe.
I mean, that's
Ben: right, but I imagine that he was
just, like, pretending to be a waiter.
Yeah, it was part of his career.
For a week!
Like, I'm the owner of this.
Heath: Right.
Emily: He really had to convince
her, cause she's like fucking
pure as fuck and he had to
Ben: convince her.
He
Heath: really needed to
nail this 16 year old.
Like, what is this about
teenagers that everyone in this
movie wants to fuck teenagers?
Yeah, it's a real, it's a
real pedo movie, you guys.
Listen, I don't know what to tell you.
It's a big pedo movie.
It's so pedo, it's practically Democrat.
Yeah, it's practically Democrat.
Yeah.
The
Ben: movie, like, definitely
starts with, like, Charlize being,
like, she's all aboard this, like,
hedonistic New York lifestyle, and
she's gonna further push Keanu.
Into the arms of the devil, and
then it just fucking turns on a 180.
Yeah!
Heath: Yeah.
By the way, can we also agree that
it's like, three years later this
movie is two two thirds of The Firm.
It's basically the plot of
The Firm, and then at the end
they're like, but Supernatural.
We're not, we're bad because
it's because the devil,
Emily: like, but we just
shoved Lucifer in there.
It's like, that's
Heath: right.
Do we get Lucifer
Ben: Pacino, nagging
people into hair advice,
Emily: TM, TM, TM, TM,
TM, um, can I do that?
Can I do the recap recap?
Jeremy: Let's do the recap.
Emily: Let's do talk about the nagging
and a lot of the things to talk about.
I'll go for them really quickly.
Okay.
We didn't talk about the stars.
We talked about a few of the stars, you
know, Al Pacino, Keanu Reeves, Charlize
Theron, Jeffrey Jones, Judith Lee Bay.
Okay.
Connie Nielsen, Craig T.
Nelson, Tamara Tunier, and as Jeremy has
written here by special permission the
various accents of Keanu Reeves, which
are characters in and of themselves.
where do we begin?
But the South.
It's Florida.
Not Louisiana this time,
like in Angel Heart.
Um, we find defense attorney Kevin
Lomax, who's Keanu Reeves character.
He's facing a small moral conflict before
bullying a teenage rape victim in court.
Yikes.
So he wins that case, and we've
mentioned the details of that.
Another one for Kev's record, his wife,
Mary Ann, played by Charlize Theron,
and shady reporter Harry, played by
Neil Jones and other peers celebrate the
victory defending the serial rapist and
pedophile at a very white Florida club.
And here is where a remarkably black man,
as Kevin remarks heavily on the fact that
he's black demon Is it Lehman or lemon?
Lehman, I suppose.
Yeah, I like lemon, but that's different.
Okay, Lehman Heath played by Ruben
Santiago Hudson, offers him an
offer he can't refuse, in that he,
uh, offers him a job in the big
city, which is New York, of course.
Kev's mom, a careworn career Christian,
apparently reveals that New York was
mentioned in Revelations, specifically.
. I know it was Babylon, but she says,
she basically is like, you should read
Revelations so you don't go to New York.
All right.
Kev assures her that he loves his
mom, just like he loves his wife.
Yeah, that's a word.
Those are words that he said, No
wonder he can't get his wife pregnant.
Anyway, so, and I make a remark about
Jeremy: how they should at least
He's doing it wrong, he has to love
his wife like he loves his sister.
Ben: Eww.
Emily: Eww, yeah, I mean Hot take.
Hot Per per per!
We have some Kind of confusing
makeup choices for Charlize
Theron, but let's move past that.
Anyway, Kevin earns his new spot at Dewey,
Cheat, Benhow by helping pick a jury.
The firm is fancy and international
and has hot Italian ladies.
On top of it all, Al Pacino playing John
Milton, probably the least obvious double
alias we've gotten so far in these movies.
There is a, an incredible
non OSHA compliant balcony.
In his office at this firm that is never
Ben: That balcony fucking rules.
Emily: Never referred to.
Like, I was expecting somebody to
fall like an angel perhaps from
Ben: heaven.
Yes!
From his balcony.
The New York porn in this
movie is just, oh, my.
Emily: Yeah, like, there's some New
York porn that is obviously, like,
blue screened in, but, like, this
thing, uh, yeah, there's, like,
Ben: anyway, Same with him
and, uh, Connie Nielsen outside
the party, very blue screened.
Yeah,
Emily: yeah, so, this, this balcony, which
is basically a death trap which they make
a comment about, or visually, at least,
Jeremy: it's, it's, You mean
the infinity pool to hell?
Yeah, the infinity
Emily: hell pool But at least Alex
Pacino can do his old razzle dazzle
and now Kev and Marianne have a
fancy apartment so she can have all
the 4, 000 babies that she wants.
We then need a Broads gallery of
presumably corrupt as hell department
heads, including one who leads the
quote unquote Islamic subdivision,
which we never unpack that, but the
fact that it's there we're gonna have
to unpack that at least a little bit.
Sure, sure.
But hey the hot Italian lady Krista
Bella She is, uh, also there.
Keanna's first case is with this
enormous fancy international firm is
defending a Creole immigrant who lives
in a basement doing animal sacrifice
but it's cool because he cast a spell
thethe the quiet, cast a spell against
Kef's competion which apparently
works And this brings nothing to the
film, but there's, there's voodoo now.
We
Heath: can't
Jeremy: The fact that he does
voodoo undercuts the fact that Keanu
Reeves is like Doing a whole, like a
whole bit using religion to defend.
Heath: I absolutely have that note.
It is a thorough vote of no
confidence to Keanu's work.
He's basically saying, Oh, you're
not going to be able to win.
So I'm going to cheat.
And then he wins.
And I was like, but did he win
because the guy did his thing?
That seems like a real issue.
That seems like a problem.
Ben: Yeah, this is Lindo just wanted
to show off, like, his big crazy
tongue and his cool nail collection.
He doesn't want to show
Heath: off the big
Emily: crazy tongue.
Like, I want to know
the story about Philippe
Ben: Moyet and, like, I mean, the
fact that Voodoo is real doesn't
impact the plot ever again.
No, and
Emily: this like guy that lives in a
basement, I guess they just wanted to
show someone sacrificing a goat and have
Keanu Reeves talk about goats a lot.
anD then he appeals to a Jewish
judge in Jewish ways, which is.
Another one that maybe we're gonna
have to unpack, but so, anyway,
so the spell works, we don't know
if it's Keanu or what it's weird.
That's what we get out of
this bit, is that it's, it's
Ben: weird.
I mean, it's implied that like,
Delroy Lindos is like, yeah, I knew
that shit would work, you're welcome.
Yeah, so, um And he's buddies with
The devil, which you'd think a voodoo
priest and the devil being buddies
would be plot relevant, but it's
Emily: not.
No, no.
And that's also not how it works.
From what I know about the you know.
Ben: It's less offensive
Jeremy: than the Norse version
Ben: of voodoo, I gotta say.
Whether you're talking about voodoo
or the law, correct, that's not how it
Emily: works.
Yes, exactly.
So now we get a scene between Al Pacino
and Keanu, they're walking through the
NYC streets with a lot of unintentional
question mark symbolism in the background.
buT Al Pacino does make fun of
Keanu's accent, which is why
I included it in our recap.
It's very important.
And then, you know, they don't
show the tic tac toe chicken.
That's a crime.
Instead we watched Shirley's Throne
agonizing over interior decoration.
Why she doesn't just hire somebody
with their millions of dollars?
I guess she just needs
to be frustrated about
Heath: it.
By the way, I, I, I'm gonna
weigh in and say she blows it.
Like, the walls are horrific
colors when they cut back to it.
There's a yellow against the,
like, a terrible burnt sienna.
I'm just like, what are you?
It's, it's horrific.
I go, you fuck this,
girl, girl, you fuck this
Ben: up.
Is the most insane green
color like possible.
She's a Florida
Heath: trash hole and you're
letting her design this entire
apartment and it's the wrong thing.
Yeah, I mean it is.
You let her do the wrong
Jeremy: thing.
That feels realistic to me.
Justin, like, she doesn't
hire somebody to do it.
She should.
But being a poor kid from Florida,
you're like, I can do this.
I will
Heath: go ahead and do it.
And she buys the smallest Couch
for the biggest room and you're
just going, what were you doing?
Emily: She's she's just listening
to her gal pals who are fucking with
her, which I think that's the that's
the whole point of a lot of this is
that her gal pals are fucking with her
because they're rich and she's boring.
She's, you know, not used to the big city.
This
Ben: is also like she's in this as
well and isolated, which I don't know.
It's.
Kind of hard in New York
when you're that rich.
There's a lot of shit to do.
Jeremy: The thing that drives me a
little crazy in this section is they,
her gal pal does actually suggest to
her that one of the things you can
do The two are like being bored and
breeding but that you could get a
Heath: job.
She never
Ben: attempts it.
She never even attempts to get a job.
It's like, you're
Heath: really rich, you don't
Jeremy: have to find a job
where you can make money.
You can be a comic book writer.
Heath: That's right.
Well, she's coming off of this spectacular
job repoing cars over the phone.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah, it's like, she doesn't
have a passion in life, aside
from, I guess, have a kid.
Which, I guess, wouldn't be
happening anyway, regardless.
I don't know, get a dog!
Yeah!
Get him through that
board, get a fucking dog!
Get a
Emily: dog!
I'm sure the devil has
really cool dogs that you
Ben: can get.
Like, I hate to say how much of this,
like, the conflict in this movie could
have been avoided with a golden retriever.
Yeah.
Or like, in vitro
Emily: fertilization.
Which I'm sure they could
afford at that point.
Like,
Ben: I don't know.
Or like, I don't know, just fucking
like Adopt, like, adopt a foreign baby.
It was the 90s.
You could just get him on the way,
Heath: being on that HOA, it would suck.
The devil's HOA, I mean,
that's a whole story.
They're going to be like,
there's no dogs in that building.
Yeah.
The devil is not going to let you
have a dog in his fucking building.
Only goats.
Only goats.
Only goats.
Yes, only goats
Ben: in the building.
Like the goat from Vivids.
I love that show.
Black Phillip, Black Peter.
Philip.
Yeah.
Black.
Philips got a fucking
apartment on the 15th floor.
Emily: Speaking of the HOA Kev and
Marianne go to a fancy ass party.
For networking and shit, Donald
Trump, that's where Donald Trump
was supposed to be there, but,
um, Mort Zuckerman got in the way.
Despite promising not to leave Marianne
alone, Kev goes and flirts with
Christabella, lots of vagina, and then Al
nigs Marianne as the prophecy has told us.
Angels are Italian.
bUt John Milton's apartment?
Sick as fuck.
New quest is unblocked.
Kev now has to defend coach Alex
Cullen, real estate developer, who
may have murdered, he definitely
murdered, his wife, son, and maid.
Marianne, meanwhile, has proceeded
with a new makeover and is
hanging out with the gal pals.
She starts seeing them turn into
demons and then she runs away.
And on a dime, she has now
started flipping on the whole
big city apartment thing.
Kev is like, well, why
don't we just bang it out?
And then Marianne turns into
Christabella, and he sucks on her big toe.
And that's when Marianne is like,
Wait, what the fuck are you doing?
And then they stop.
sO Kev's mom comes to
visit and meets John.
Then she freaks out too.
She stays just long enough to henpeck
Kev while things get capitalized
complicated with the case in the firm.
But that's
Heath: okay.
Jeremy: Can we, can we go back to
the shopping scene for just a second?
Yeah, let's talk about that.
It does bother me a little bit.
One that, that Marianne is apparently
mortally afraid of, of boobs.
Of touching boobs?
Yeah, of boobs and touching them.
Like.
Heath: Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily: There's a little bit of homo there.
The whole
Heath: thing became this very
weird, like, all of a sudden
Ben: she's this
Heath: just this backwoods Florida
character who got real uncomfortable
with all of the nudity and all,
and, and the, and the talk.
And I was like.
We have never seen this
color of this character
Ben: anywhere.
She goes from like, I'm like feeling
constrained and trapped to wanting to
get free and expand in the big city.
Since I've been like, I'm just a country
girl who doesn't belong in this big city.
Right?
It's
Heath: a weird turn.
It's a sharp turn.
Yeah.
The character of
Jeremy: Marianne that we meet in
the first 10 minutes of this movie.
loves to touch other people's tits.
She just will do it without being asked.
She needs two shots and she's
touching other people's boobs.
Like, that's it.
Right.
Like, right.
I, I know lots of those people.
Several of them have lived in Florida.
I am related to some of them.
Those people from, from Florida, Southern
Georgia, Louisiana, no problem with boobs.
But like they keep sort of mixing up.
The characters of Marianne and Keanu's
mom, who is like a hyper religious,
like, very conservative Christian, which
like, they do live in the same state,
Floridians and hyper religious right wing
people but like, they're not the same
Heath: people.
Yeah.
Emily: Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, if, if I was Marianne, maybe
that reaction would make sense
after the demon face, but Yeah,
yeah, and she was already like, even
Ben: then, who doesn't like demon boobs?
I
Emily: mean, that's another thing is
like, at that point, I'd be like, huh?
But yeah, she, she flips on a dime
and she becomes plot, just a plot
device, like the rest of the movie,
she's plot device, even though she's
doing a really great job acting.
She's, she's being
creating conflict to create
Jeremy: conflict.
Also, I have to say, like in Marianne's
case, there's a lot of horror movies
where like, people ignore weird things
happening until too late in the story.
And Marianne, it's like, If I saw, like,
if I thought I saw somebody's face and
or body do that, I'd be like, oh, I
must've, I must've eaten something bad.
Like yeah, the first time
Emily: I'd be like, I freaked out,
but I'll be like, Hey, it's a weird
Jeremy: thing.
And it was gone.
And I would be like, Ooh,
that, that was weird.
I, yeah, I would definitely
be like, didn't really
Ben: happen.
Like I would definitely be like, did, did
I take shrooms and forget I took shrooms?
Right?
Because I've seen faces turn into
those demon faces when I've been
on shrooms and I've been like,
damn, these are good shrooms.
I'm having a good time.
Heath: Yeah, I actually found this beat a
little, I find these beats muddy because
I can't tell if the movie is supposed
to be indicating that Marianne is, is in
her head having these breaks with reality
or are these actual succumb by that have
married these lawyers or what is going on?
Like everyone has this moment and I
was like, it happens with Pam later.
It happens.
And I was like.
Are they demons?
Have they given up their soul?
Were they people at one part?
Are Did he just hire a bunch
of succumbi from fucking hell?
Yeah, like it's just I mean, I was so
in the weeds on some of this, I was just
like, what are you trying to tell us?
Emily: It's kind of, I mean It's, it's
metaphorical, like, it's, it works as a
metaphor, like, if it's something, like,
right before death, I can see this sort
of metaphorical thing, like, you see this
in, like, Jacob's Ladder, and in, like,
Nashvore and Killers, which is, like, a
fucking whack movie, too, but, like, it
also, you know, that is always happening
because, it's, It's metaphorical.
Well, that's
Jeremy: what happens to women once
you take their ability to reproduce,
is they become demon creatures,
Emily: like.
Oh, yeah.
Once they stop caring
about making families.
Yeah, once you,
Jeremy: once they stay in the devil's
apartment long enough that they, you know,
get their ovaries taken out, then they
Heath: become demons.
That's right.
And oddly, the same thing happens
to older homeless guys in the park.
They also lose their, their souls.
Emily: Yeah, so, anyway, so, Kev is
having trouble his mom is handpacking
him, he's but she's not telling him
anything she waits several weeks
until everything gets a lot worse to
tell him this important information
Ben: Yeah, oh wait, she spends so long
being like, Kev, I need to tell you, and
he goes like, I can, I can, and she's
like, okay, and instead of just telling
him, she keeps going like, I need to tell
you, it's like, just fucking tell him.
Your dad's the devil.
Emily: That's your dad.
You're working for your dad.
I met your dad in the elevator.
That's your dad.
But the
Ben: amount of time we waste by her just
like, insisting that she needs to tell
him this instead of just telling him this.
Yeah,
Emily: but okay.
So now things are getting complicated.
The firm, there's some shit
going on, but John is here.
He's razzling.
He's dazzling.
He's starting fights and parting
tights, and he's also going to
introduce Kev to Don King and Roy
Jones Jr., who are playing themselves.
Maryanne meanwhile wakes up in
a slasher movie to discover,
discover that the slasher is a
child who is playing with her.
Quote, her ovaries, I guess it looked like
Ben: pulled pork.
Emily: Yeah.
It was a lot of just messy stuff.
Did not look like, you
know, ovaries had a uterus.
It, yeah, it just looked
like some, some, it looked
Ben: like it would cover a golf ball.
Sloppy Joe.
It looks more like,
Emily: yeah, it looked like Sloppy Joe.
You know, ovaries sometimes feel
like sloppy joe, but I, I can't
say that they look like that.
As creeped out
Jeremy: as she is, she is not
worried enough about this baby
that has ended up in her house.
Yeah, She drops the knife.
I was like, no, finding a baby
in your locked house has more
reason to hold on to the knife.
Like, yeah, like,
Emily: who put it there?
Who, you know?
How did that baby get there?
Ben: It seems like it had dream logic
where she's like, oh, this is my baby
and I now exist in a world three years
in the future where I have a baby.
You know how you have
a dream and it's just.
You just go into the dream just
knowing things, even though the
dream doesn't actually explain it.
You just have a certain level of context.
But she
Jeremy: does ask how he got there
and whose baby he is, though, like.
Yeah.
And then, and he's like, check
out this cool ovaries I got.
Ben: I gotta say, I definitely
had that experience too, like.
Man, I was walking home, like, one night,
like, through New York, and there was
just a baby in a car seat on the sidewalk.
And eventually, like, the parent came out
from, like, the other side of the car.
But for about ten seconds, I'm
just staring at this baby being
like, Oh no, my night has just
gotten way more complicated.
Yeah, that's right.
Heath: That's right.
Emily: Well, Marianne has a
psychotic break over this.
She also got news that her,
uh, from her doctor that she
has some random ovary failure.
So we're not sure if the ovary failure
announcement was before the vision.
Or what?
Which also makes it a good scene.
In a
Heath: scene that for
some reason we don't see.
We're not privy to this scene.
So now we're supposed to trust the
character who is having the psychotic
break about a piece of, of exposition
that apparently is important.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
It's also like, oh by the way, you
know, maybe someone would have like
fucked up dreams and have some, maybe
a psychotic break if they're, one of
their big goals in life is to have kids.
Yeah.
Ben: You're right, like, at that point,
what's more likely, that the devil is
fucking with her, or she had a nightmare
after Being given traumatic news, right?
Emily: We don't know
how, like, who's they?
Who took her ovaries?
Did this little kid, like,
reach up and grab them?
Like, no?
Maybe?
I don't know?
Ben: Yeah, who's
Heath: they?
Just to dig into this, just
for one more second, The devil,
Ben: who makes a
Heath: point of saying that he doesn't
micromanage, Tells Marianne how to do
her hair and then is really involved
on like a perfect dream that you're
gonna have that's absolutely the right
thing and I'm like, huh, feels like
micromanaging to me, motherfucker.
Emily: Yeah, well, he's also the
devil and he lies, but I, you
know, that doesn't really do much.
Heath: Oh, how about that
Jeremy: scene on the It's fascinating to
me because like, I mean, one, he's right,
except for the like cutting part, but like
putting the hair up and everything like
Ben: it, it does work though.
She's Charlize, she can pull it all off.
She even pulls off those, well no, she
doesn't pull off the white girl dreads
they give her in Fast and Furious 8.
She's not, no one can pull off that
Jeremy: though.
Only Angelina Jolie has ever managed that.
But like, the, the
Ben: like,
Jeremy: that scene is interesting from
like a character point for him, but like.
What does it do that she cuts her hair?
Like, they never come back to that
Heath: point.
No!
I mean, is it supposed to mean
that she's falling into his
web or that he's abusing her?
It's
Ben: very confusing that she's being
both influenced by him and yet also
Blaming him for the psychotic breakdown.
Heath: Some might say being
micromanaged by him, but you
Ben: know, not the devil.
It's very scene to scene.
Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Well, I mean, we don't
have her journey at all.
Did
Ben: we talk about the scene on the subway
on the way to the fight where just like
the angry Hispanic man, like getting
into an argument and Al Pacino, like.
What was that scene?
It was not, I'm
Heath: just gonna say,
Jeremy: from like a writing and
racism perspective, It's not
necessary to tell that man that
his wife is at home doing crack.
Heath: That's
Ben: our spin off, like, they
were good with the cheating.
Like, the crack was a whole extra
layer, like, Also, is that our spin
off podcast on writing and racism?
Emily: On writing and racism, yeah, that's
That one might, we might have to R's,
Ben: writing, racism, and arithmetic.
Jeremy: Yeah, we can skip the
your wife is at home doing crack.
And just go to your
wife is cheating on you.
Like, that man is definitely generally
angry enough for that to be enough.
Emily: Yeah, so yeah, that's what I mean.
I do like
Jeremy: the detail of his special
bedspread though, like, she's
fucking him on your special
Ben: bedspread.
Yeah,
Emily: special green because the
important things are green because it's
fucking Great Gatsby now, apparently
Ben: I do feel like this.
I really do feel like this movie kind
of captured, you know, in hindsight,
this feeling of like the 90s is
almost like this second roaring 20s.
Uh huh.
It's
Heath: got a real like, because
they even, they even name drop
like the masters of the universe.
Like it's all that Tom Wolf, you
know, look at us in New York.
We can do whatever we want.
Uh,
Ben: sensibility.
Yeah, there's a real like, end of
history, we are the lone superpower,
everything, neoliberal capitalism
is great, and we'll, every, and,
why, number will go up forever.
That's right.
I,
Emily: There's, the hair scene, real
quick, Keith says that whole thing about
how the woman's shoulders are the fore,
the, the front lines of her mystique.
Is that a reference to something?
Ben: Now that I believe
Machino fucking ad libbed.
Emily: Yeah, that's like
some Pablo Neruda shit.
Like, I don't even know what's going on
there, but like the whole bit where it's
like the, the, the battleground between
her mind and her body is her neck, and
I'm like, okay, you know, I think that
There's something that we can do with the
scene if we had more of Charlize Theron,
like, feeling conflict about a thing.
That's not like, oh, he told me
I should cut my hair, so I'll
cut my hair, and am I succumbing?
You know, there's no,
there's just no attention.
Ben: Well, also, we don't get
the Pacino Theron sex scene.
That happens offscreen.
Jeremy: I, I do have to say, like, even as
a person who's not, I don't particularly
find Al Pacino, like, sexually attractive,
but still, like, there's any of those
conversations that I can, like, believe
because of Al Pacino's, like, charisma.
Like, the way
Heath: he talks,
Jeremy: I'm like, Al Pacino
could tell me anything.
Heath: In terms of Al Pacino's
attractiveness, though, what
about Godfather 1 Al Pacino?
They're all
Emily: fuckable, except
for the current one.
The current one is a bit.
I don't know what's going on.
Well, he's not
Heath: out.
He's dunk.
Dunk a cino.
What?
Oh, you never saw the Al Pacino
Dunkin Donuts commercials?
Emily: Yeah, okay, so.
What?
Yeah.
Heath: Yeah, look that shit up some time.
Al
Emily: Pacino, I remember
you as I, as you lived.
Rest in pepperonis.
My dude.
Heath: There he goes around with
donuts, calling himself Duncancino.
Emily: I'm, I'm, I'm also like part
Italian, I'm just gonna fucking.
Heath: I hope they gave him
just trucks of money for that.
Like, he was like, he's like,
I'm doing this for the twins.
Yeah.
We'll give you a, we'll give you
a, we'll give you a dollar for
every Dunkin Donuts in Boston.
And he was like, great,
another million dollars.
Love it.
That's good.
With this movie.
And I really enjoyed this movie and so
much it does feel like of its time in
that like this is when you can get like,
yeah, like a 50 million like, you know,
like a horny drama made and it could
be a big blockbuster, but also in the
way where it seems like, hey, the most
important thing we have to talk about is
just, it's just how successful America is.
And are things now so
good that they're bad?
That I feel like reminds, it feels
like, of this era, like this late 90s
era where you get movies like, you get
this, and American Beauty, and Fight
Club, and it all just kind of feels like
it's coming from like, what in hindsight
now just feels like adorable naivete.
I know, I
Emily: know, like, oh, don't you feel
sorry for these guys that have everything
and now they have to destroy the fucking
establishment because they're bored?
Like, anyway, that was Fight Club.
This, alright, let me, okay, so, Marianne
is upset and then John Milton straight
up goes to Keanu Reeves and he's like,
You should take care of your wife.
No, really, like, you should
really take care of your wife.
Like, no, seriously.
And then, Kev is like,
Heath: That's what's cra that's
the craziest fucking scene is
when the devil is literally
the angel on Keanu's shoulder.
Yeah,
Emily: yeah, and that's another bit
where it's like, where the devil is, it,
there's this, It's an interesting and
complex take on the idea of Satan and
there's a lot of other stuff that goes
on in the dialogue and, you know, the,
one acts plays in the, in the, uh, I
Heath: totally buy it.
It's like in this.
Like Pacino's mindset of being like,
sure, I can just keep corrupting
at every turn, but isn't it so much
funnier and better if I actually give
him good advice and he just doesn't
listen on his road to corruption?
I
Emily: mean, it's a, it's a very like,
Hades you know, Orpheus coming out
of the underworld situation, right?
Like, all you have to
do is this one thing.
Inverse
Heath: or not Do one thing verse Yeah.
Inverse.
I cannot do the, I cannot
do the Orpheus story.
No, I, I get that.
Hades town is great.
I can't do it.
I'm sorry.
I'm not, I won't see it.
I can't do That's fine.
I can't do the fucking
Orpheus story again.
Yeah, well, I
Emily: mean, it's what it is.
I haven't seen Hades Town.
I haven't seen, I, I've,
I've watched people play gay.
I
Heath: played Hades, but that Yeah.
You know, that was like happy.
What if everything had happy endings?
Orpheus
Emily: was a really great Femme Robert
Smith and I really appreciated that.
Oh,
Heath: I love the Femme
Robert Smith design.
Emily: Okay, okay, but let me
finish this movie and then we can
talk more about Femme Robert Smith.
Like the Sandman.
The, so Kevin does some fast talking.
By the way, yeah, he decides,
like, I'm gonna win the trial and
then I'll take care of my wife.
See?
Both.
Heath: Oh, the rationality has, is
because He's worried that if he quits
the case and takes care of her and she
gets better, he'll resent her for it.
Emily: Yeah, talk about,
like, baroque theories.
Yeah, like, you know, I get it.
I have OCD.
Like, I get it.
But at the same time, like, there
are, there are strata of this.
Anyway, so, anyway, he's being dumb.
And so he does some fast talking
and things look good for the case.
Suddenly he's a partner.
Eddie Barzun our Jeffrey Jones, gross,
pedophile guy is all, oh my god, what
the fuck, I'm jealous, derogatory,
Heath: not like Whose character
also makes no goddamn sense.
Emily: Yeah, he's randomly
there to be beat up during a
monologue, which we will now get.
Heath: What is Eddie Barzun's motivation?
Emily: He's there to, to kowtow
to the devil, and then, when he's,
he thinks he has an angle on him,
by like, shredding documents,
but he's might leak, we'll get to
Heath: it.
He's
Jeremy: the devil's old bitch,
and Keanu is his new bitch, so.
Right,
Heath: right.
Yeah, by the way, again, seeing
that sidesteps all drama, like, why
wouldn't we have John Milton trying
to make Keanu, trying to make Kevin a
partner as part of the conversation.
So everyone goes, Oh, I don't,
he hasn't been here long enough.
He hasn't earned it yet.
Well, I think he did.
He blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like that's a scene.
That's drama.
That's interesting.
Now it's like, no, no, we
snuck your name into paperwork.
Like, what?
That makes no sense.
I think it's supposed to be a
plant that John Milton has been
watching his son for years.
But, like, why would you put
a guy's name in your charter
years before he even shows up?
Like, why does I'm so in
the weeds on this idea.
Yeah, that's also, like, he wants to
be, like, in he wants to be in on he,
like, he wants to be made partner.
But also, he's working with the Justice
Department to take Milton down, like,
Emily: Yeah, he's got like, he's, he's
juggling some things to see who wins.
Like he's, you know, he's in that first
circle of hell of people that won't, you
Heath: know, commit.
I will say, Pacino speech about Eddie
Barzun and how he represents what
the 21st century person is going to
be has unfortunately aged very well.
Yeah, well, so we have
Jeremy: Also, I do want to say
Eddie Barzun runs like somebody
who's only just heard of jogging.
Yeah,
Heath: I think he just took it up.
I think he just took it up now.
Eddie Barzun runs like somebody who
only got the scenes in the script
that said his character would run
after he had signed and tried to
see if he could get out of it.
Emily: Yeah.
Ah, man.
So, um, yeah, so Kev tells Milton
that Eddie was mean to him and then
through a monologue about capitalism
John tells, uh, John uses his
diabolical acting powers to summon some
invisible demon people experiencing
homelessness to be Eddie to death.
There's a weird there's a weird, like,
red herring in this whole sequence,
because he starts, like, not seeing
people, and then seeing people, and
then the first people that he's afraid
of are a bunch of joggers of color.
Heath: It's just the predator effect.
It's just invisible, like, predator.
Emily: Yeah, they don't
really, like, do a lot.
I
Heath: know it's not the most original
observation, but I do love just the sense
of, like, the focus on individualism
and following your dreams of if everyone
being the most special center of
their own universe, then there's just
destroying any sense of actual community.
Emily: Yeah, and like, I mean, I'd
listen to Al Pacino yell about that.
I'd rather just see him do it rather
than watching like this, this sort
of coinciding murder happened.
That is I mean, I think it's
Heath: weird messaging.
Why at a certain point, the movie just
drops the pretense and says, fuck it.
We're just going to end with 15
minutes of Pacino going crazy.
Yeah,
Emily: right.
I mean, again, 2 hours and
30 minutes or 90 minutes.
Heath: was I the only one who did
not believe that where this guy
was running, Charlize Theron would
be able to see him get attacked?
I was like, that didn't work in the least.
I was like, I'm not buying that.
That geography does not make sense.
Nope.
I don't think
Emily: she saw it.
I think she just was
like feeling it happen.
But
Jeremy: she's feeling it happen while
looking out the window, which And
Heath: banging on the window, like, hey!
Like, and that, by the way, what
you just pitched, Emily, would
have been more interesting.
If that was happening, I would
have been like, oh, that's cool.
Emily: Yeah, well, and that's
what I thought was going on.
I have I will admit now that I have
had the advantage of seeing this movie
so many times because it was on like
regular rotation on like Cinemax or
something like when I was in 1988.
Jeremy: I mean, the middle of this
movie is basically a Cinemax movie.
Emily: It's all Cinemax.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, so like it was a very big Cinemaxx
one and it was one of the cable channels
that I guess we had or, you know,
Heath: I
Jeremy: gotta say some, there's a lot
of things in this movie that feel like
a, that feel like a TV show, including
the Eddie Barzun plot, which feels like
the, like the third season of a show
about like Lomax where like, there's
this whole thing where he's got this
other, you know, he's the rival guy and
over the course of like eight episodes,
you know, this thing unfolds and.
He gets killed by, you know, by Milton.
It's like, I mean, it's like the
introduction of the idea that there
is a guy from the State Department,
the murdering of Eddie Barzun, the
introduction of the guy from State
Department, the State Department, and
the subsequent murder of the guy from
the State Department takes place of
like 10 minutes in the middle of this
Heath: movie, right?
For a movie, this really does
have an episode of the week feel.
Emily: Yeah, I think that's
also This one act play situation
that we've got going on.
I
Heath: do not believe that the devil has
any role whatsoever in Weaver's death.
That man all on his own just fucking
walks straight into a busy road
without looking in either direction.
Oh yeah.
And then just gets nailed.
Like that's not like, that feels
like, they're like, why blame
the devil that when this man,
that's couldn't be bothered?
That's, do you know how
I know you're right?
Because the devil doesn't micromanage.
Because he doesn't do that.
He was too busy going like,
hey God, pull my finger.
Yeah.
Jeremy: He's just used to
walking through DC traffic.
You see, he's from the state
department, so New York just murders him
Emily: right away.
Coach Cullen is absolutely guilty.
We now, we now know because the woman he
was allegedly fucking during the murder
can't say whether or not he's circumcised.
Which gives Kev pause, but
he pulls through and decides
to go with it, wins the case.
Hurrah.
But Marianne.
Heath: This is why the
movie was on Cinemaths.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, it's plot points like this
that really show you why this
b And that, and the fact that
everybody gets naked in this movie.
We get Charlize, Charlize
gets Full frontal.
Yeah.
Emily: Yeah, she does.
But not in a scene with where
she's having sex with Keanu Reeves.
No,
Heath: it's very uncomfortable.
Yeah.
Emily: So,
Heath: if Charlize's full
frontal scene gets you off
get therapy, work on yourself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Marianne is in a church covered in wounds.
She's claiming that she was
raped and beaten by Milton.
This is all while Keanu was in a
courtroom with Milton all day, but
she does take off of her, take her,
her duvet off that she's wearing and
reveal her body covered in scratches.
and cuts and things.
It's not great.
She's immediately institutionalized.
Yeah, it's not great.
Heath: And I will just say, side
note, the duvet is a terrible color.
So you can just imagine what
their bedroom looks like.
You know, it's an awful
color that she chose.
I would like to think
that's why she picked it.
Whereas she, before she went out, she
was looking at the duvet option and
was like, all right, which is the best?
One to like which do they,
will I not need again?
I don't think she knows.
I don't think she knows.
I think guys, I think she thinks that
she made good choices in terms of the
Emily: decoration.
She doesn't.
She was just like, I don't know.
That one's, that's a weird thing.
I'll do that.
It's like, you know, when you're hanging
out with your art, like your super fancy
art student friends and they're like,
whoa, how, that's so fucking weird.
You're like, yeah.
I don't know Fika philia,
that's She's like, it's
Heath: the Martha Stewart
collection, it was really expensive.
And it's
Emily: like, ugh.
And that's another thing is that when the
scene is that she's like choosing the, um,
Heath: The greens?
Or the oh, yeah, yeah.
Emily: Where she's choosing the
panels, and then Kev comes in
and he's like, we'll take it.
And I was like, but let her
fuckin let her fuckin choose.
Yeah, bro.
Maybe she, yeah,
Heath: anyway.
Maybe she stopped because they're ugly,
not because they were too expensive.
Emily: Yeah, so she's institutionalized.
Kev, immediately after she's
institutionalized, Kevin immediately
goes to Eddie Barzun's funeral.
Ollie's out when he really starts
thinking about morality and shit,
and then he also sees Coach, like,
you know, molesting his stepdaughter.
Amid Ollie, Mitch Weaver of the Weaver
Commission that was mentioned once or
twice earlier in this two hour long film.
Shows up, and he dumps all sorts of
exposition on Kev about how Milton is
involved with every bad thing ever,
is like Tony Stark but worse, etc.
But then Weaver is immediately struck
dead by a BMW whilst Milton boils
some holy water with his fingers.
So, great.
I'm glad that we spent
some time with that.
Meanwhile, Mama
Heath: Lomax is I like how you What?
I like how you said Tony Stark but worse.
Not Tony Stark but bad.
Tony Stark but worse.
You know where I'm at.
I know where you're at, which is
why I am, I, I am applauding your
choice of like, it was a, it was a
carefully chosen word and I wanna
make sure the audience picks up on it.
Thank you.
Wherever
Jeremy: we are is the year 2023?
Yeah.
Heath: aLl billionaires are bad,
I guess, except Green Arrow.
Who knows?
He is bad.
I kind of always saw Green Arrow
as the deconstruction parody
of the billionaire superhero.
But anyway, whatever.
Sorry.
Emily: I'm sorry.
I'm now I'm thinking about that.
Okay.
Anyway meanwhile, Mama Lomax has come
to take care of Marianna in the hospital
and she does her own bit of arms dealing.
Oh, hello.
She's dropping a bomb.
What's that?
Milton is Kev's real dad, as we've talked
about in previous to this, but this is
the first time that Kev knows about it.
And then, while they're talking about
that, Marianne kills herself with a piece
of broken mirror in the hospital room.
And Pam is like, okay.
SO now it's time for the final showdown.
Jeremy: uh, Alicia was watching this
with me and she was very surprised that
she didn't just slit her wrist, she went
full, like, seppuku with this thing, just
Heath: drove it into her throat.
Yeah, she slit her own throat,
fuckin and you know what?
And that's the level of hardcoreness
that would serve Charli so
well throughout her career.
Yeah.
Emily: Alright, so Kevin walks down the
very surreal, empty streets of New York.
To go meet up with dad and talk
about humanity and morality.
Apparently the endgame is Kev has
gotta fuck Christabella on the altar
of Milton's apartment in front of his
awesome kinetic art on a scale of 1 to 10.
Al Pacino's rockin a 666.
Ha ha, that's funny.
But rather than sire the Antichrist,
uh, with his half sister, which is what
is revealed here as well, and I have
to mention, he says that it's his half
sister, and he still, like, makes out with
her, and I don't know if this is, like,
part of his game to, like, get them to,
like, think that he's gonna do it before
he shoots himself in the fucking head.
And that's where everyone's like,
and then, you know, Al Pacino's
like, he's on fire, he takes off
his fire jacket, he's shirtless.
I
Jeremy: don't understand why
Christabella turns into a mummy
when, when Milton shoots himself.
Or not when Milton shoots himself,
when Lomax shoots himself.
Because like, presumably, and I
guess this is maybe, A general
story note women do exist when men
are not on screen or still alive.
Heath: I'm genuinely worried, though,
that the movie does not know that.
Emily: Well, there was a lot of things
that they did off screen, like get
doctor's appointments and fuck Al Pacino.
Heath: Right, kick ugly duvets.
Yeah.
Pick up just the most hideous,
multiple hideous shapes of Reeve.
Maybe
Jeremy: we should get the duvet at
Heath: the doctor's office.
That's why it's so
Emily: Oh, that would be good.
Um,
Heath: yeah.
Um And, and, and, what's more, John Milton
reverts back into fallen angel form,
Lucifer, fallen angel, which is Keanu.
Yeah, he looks like
Emily: young Ke He looks like
Keanu Reeves when he's young.
So, apparently, like, Keanu Reeves
Looks that way because he, his dad
was a devil, but then Christabella
just is hot because she's a woman.
Heath: Right.
I will say though.
Yeah.
He met her mother at the same
restaurant, so he was pulling a lot
of tail at that restaurant that week.
He really did very well.
Do you know how much ass you can pick
up at the Times Square Applebee's?
SO MUCH ASS!
Oh my
Jeremy: god, that's absolutely where
Patina, where John Milton works.
Yeah, I've been to the
Times Square Applebee's.
Yeah, oh yeah.
Apple is definitely employed
Heath: there.
SO MUCH ASS!
It's
Emily: that, you know that, that
anime, it doubles a part timer?
Yeah.
That's where it is.
Okay, I haven't actually ever
seen one episode of that.
Okay, so, um, Kevin destroys himself.
And, uh, take that, Dad.
Oh, but it was all just a
Heath: dream!
Oh, I love Someone's I love
that Geno going, Call me Dad.
Yeah.
Emily: And this is absolutely an
ending that was tacked on because
test audiences were pissed off.
Heath: It feels EXTREMELY
test audience mandated.
Oh my god.
Emily: So, yeah, all of it was just a
dream where now Kevin wakes up while
he's looking in the mirror at the
beginning of the movie and then he
decides to stop defending the pedophile.
Huzzah!
But who's this reporter?
Harry, I mean Larry, he's Larry now.
He was Harry before, but now he's Larry.
I don't know what's up with that.
Heath: Wait, is that true?
Is that true?
That they totally fucked that up?
That he's Larry by the end and he was
Emily: Harry in the beginning?
Harry in the beginning.
Fucking Charlize Theron calls him Harry.
Multiverse.
Heath: And it says Harry.
They drop him into another
Emily: multiverse.
Fucking multiverse.
And you know, and, they got
the time stone, they got
Heath: the Fucking hell.
Fucking hell.
Jesus.
Oh.
That's egregious.
Emily: So Larry is also Satan,
but with a different spin.
Will he get his man in the end?
And here's where I will gesture vaguely
around everything around us today.
And the year of our banana
2023 and say, yeah, he probably
Heath: did.
I feel like
Jeremy: the implication is that
this is the 1st in an incredibly
long series of movies where he
tempts his son in different ways.
Heath: But
Emily: you know what?
Here's the Rolling Stones, so shut up.
And that's what I did, I was like, yeah!
I painted black!
Yeah!
Heath: Diabolical!
Jeremy: The thing that Keanu Reeves accent
reminds me most of is a Rolling Stone.
It never stays in one place.
It never gathers any moss.
It's just always moving.
Emily: And Al Pacino was
always doing weird tongue shit.
Like, the whole time, I
Heath: think that was just him.
I really loved the moving statues.
I guarantee you that he's
glad you noticed that.
Like, when the statue was
slowly shifting, it was so cool.
I loved that.
You could tell that, like,
someone was like, Oh, you were
the snake in the Garden of Eden.
So he was like, I'm
gonna do some tug shit.
Here we go.
Yeah.
The mummy statues felt like someone
went like, Hey, I really like
fucking Bram Stoker's Dracula.
But you know how they, like,
had to work really hard to,
like, get everything in camera?
Can we not work hard?
Yeah.
Emily: Uh, yeah.
That statue's based on,
like, some real ass shit.
Which I graduated from art school
way too long ago for me to remember,
but I remember being like, hey,
what's the devil's advocate thing?
And, um, you know, it's that, and then
like there's some weird like Dead Sea
Scrolls shit on the wall in there, I
mean it's the sickest fuck apartment,
if I could just make my whole house one
big ass altar actually no, just kidding,
I want to use the bathroom and sleep.
Heath: That's a studio!
You've turned a penthouse into a studio.
I don't know, I'm I guess
if it's just you, it's fine.
That is the,
Emily: the, the sprocket devil.
That's the original
bedazzled devil at work.
Well, so
Heath: the gimmick
Jeremy: is gonna be, I don't have
a bedroom, I just fuck anywhere, I
think, get some more furniture, like.
Yeah.
Right?
It's a boring place to fuck.
There's no furniture.
Yeah.
Heath: On the ground.
Emily: On the floor.
Where do you fuck?
He's got like a The fold out bed,
Heath: Applebee's Jack Nicholson's
devil had a bed in every room
with mirrors on the ceiling.
Yeah, Jack
Jeremy: Nicholson's bedroom had
another bed on top of the bed.
Like,
Emily: yeah, like he's got the bed
from fucking like Manifeld to earth.
Like that's a devil's bedroom
with a bed descending from chains.
Yeah, like, fuck yeah.
Then fucking, you know, Al Pacino,
he just fucks everywhere but at home.
I guess he doesn't I mean, I guess
he doesn't go to Applebee's, so
he doesn't shit where he eats, but
Heath: Oh, I don't eat the food here.
It's terrible.
Emily: Yeah, I wouldn't.
If I'm at like, the Flamenco
Heath: place.
Like, I want the 2023 version of it
where it's like, Pacino taking Keanu
on the corrupting tour of New York,
but now it's like at the M& M's store.
Totally.
I would pitch that they
never leave Florida.
There's no reason for this
movie to leave Florida.
Like, I think if he's, if he's
tempted to go to the big city,
it's like Tampa or Orlando.
And it's like, that's the movie.
the devil lives in Florida, no way
you will have, like, any second
Jeremy: questions.
I mean, two things.
Orlando already is hell.
But the other one is Uh, Charlize
Florida choices, er, color choices
make perfect sense in Miami.
Heath: That's right!
Miami
Emily: would be great.
Yeah.
That's what it's, like, just,
it's Miami Vice but with a double.
It's Miami
Jeremy: comma Vice instead of colon.
Emily: I like Miami colon
Heath: Vice.
Alright, we're remaking
this movie in Miami.
It's Jeno Ortega, and it's
gonna be J Lo, as the devil.
J Lo as the devil, Jeno Ortega.
Let's get the mean boy from
Euphoria and the Charlize Theron.
I mean, that actually,
that might be kinda fun.
I would watch that movie.
Yeah, actually, this
Emily: is, this is kinda legit.
Like, yeah.
Heath: Let J Lo play the, the Pacino
part as over the top as she can.
Either J Lo or Rosie Perez.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
Good.
We need more Lady
Jeremy: Devils.
Who is 2023 female Eddie Barzun, though?
That's what I want to know.
Oh, good one.
Heath: Will Forte.
Oh man, who's our modern Johnny Cochran?
Oh, I don't
Emily: know.
I think it's going to have
to be an updated reference,
Heath: though.
I'm going to say it's Sam Robinson.
Oh, that's good.
I was going to say DJ Khaled.
Well,
Jeremy: if we set this movie in 2023, it
absolutely has all I do is win, win, win.
Yeah, yeah.
Or it's a DJ Khaled,
Heath: Show that they go to.
And that's instead of the fight.
That's where they go to.
say we don't need the devil's advocate.
Franchise, though, like, this is from an
era where people, like, again, that is
something that just feels like pleasant
and quaint, where someone's just like,
yeah, let's just drop, like, a one
off drama, and that'll be a big hit.
Can we talk about that the title
doesn't 100 percent make sense?
Like, who's the devil's advocate?
Is it supposed to be Keanu?
Because the devil is already an advocate.
He's already the lawyer.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, I guess, I
mean, the devil's Second part.
I mean, yeah, I don't know.
He
Emily: is advocating the devil
by agreeing to work with him.
Heath: But you're right.
The title implies that it's about someone
who becomes a, like, who represents
the devil as the devil's lawyer.
And we don't, we don't see
who Pacino's lawyer is.
Presumably Johnny Cochran.
Honestly, like, I
Jeremy: feel like that's probably
a better movie if, like, he
represents The devil, who is a
criminal, like, who is doing devil
Heath: stuff.
It's like the hitman's bodyguard.
Like, it's about a bodyguard for a hitman.
Right.
Yeah.
Emily: So, there is a movie where
this kind of sort of happens,
except the devil's advocate is not
so much a lawyer, but a therapist.
And the devil is played by Jeff Goldblum.
It's a movie called What is that movie?
It's called Mr.
Frost.
It's very bad.
But Sounds amazing.
Yeah, it sounds amazing.
There's some amazing parts of it.
But basically, the devil The whole
conceit of the movie is that the devil
is trying to convince this therapist
that he is so evil that he needs to die.
And that he cannot be saved.
It's And that there is no such, like,
there's no psychological science that
will help him, uh, you know, if he's
basically, like, proving the existence
of evil, like, pure evil by trying
to push this therapist to her limit.
it's, it's odd and there's a lot of,
it's like this weird British movie.
From 1980 and it is Jeff
Goldblum is great in it.
Like, he's, he's doing, you know,
as much as he can with what he has.
And then there's some very mediocre
performances around him, but, you know,
it's, if you want to like, look at
different, like This is not exactly my
recommendation for this movie, but you
know, for this episode of Progressively
Horrified, but I will say, if you want
to look at all the different devils
in cinema, it's an interesting one.
Jeremy: Let me, let me ask you guys, I
mean, I feel like we've come up with a
lot of them as we've been doing this.
What's your pitch for a better
piece of media coming off of this?
Like, what's, what's the
thing you're going to pitch?
Is it the adaptation or what else you got?
The,
Emily: I just, when I play, just when I
play is it the final scene of this movie?
Heath: Sure.
Yeah.
I want to see the crossover with Ally
McBeal where it's Calista Flockhart
has to be Al Pacino's lawyer.
Emily: Oh my god.
Oh my god.
It's a crossover with a prophecy, right?
And, um, Kevin Lomax now is
Trying to represent Gabriel in
court, who is being sued by the
devil for trying to make another
Heath: hell.
I would love to see Christopher Walken.
Is it Viggo Mortensen's
devil that's suing him?
Have we ever gotten a movie
where Christopher Walken and
Al Pacino got to act together?
Probably.
Emily: There's gotta be,
it's gotta be out there.
Alright,
Heath: I'm gonna pitch I'm sure they've
been in the same movie together, but
I don't know if they've ever, like,
been in the same scene together.
That's a good question.
I'm gonna pitch that my version of
this would be that, that Pacino's
firm gets bought out by Boston Legal.
He's now represented by Denny Crane.
So now it's Shatner and Pacino.
Just fighting over who's going
to eat the most scenery and James
Spader and they're just gonna
Emily: Spader where's my just Spader
Heath: devil.
They're all going to just fight over
who gets to go over the top Okay update.
Uh, yes walk in and Pacino to do
a movie together along with Alan
Arkin, which sounds exciting, but
unfortunately, the movie they did
together was in 2012 and not the 1970s.
And it's called the Standup Guys.
It has a 36% on Rotten Tomatoes and
made $5 million on a $15 million budget.
How?
It's not good.
It's not good.
How?
Yeah.
How.
Jeremy: Well, you've never heard of it.
That's probably part of it.
Heath: Also directed by Fisher
Stevens, which is just a whole
other level of disappointment.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I think my, my pitch coming off of
this is a podcast and it's just like
half hour conversations that you're
supposed to walk around the city to,
which is just 30 minutes of Al Pacino
talking to you about a random subject.
I
Heath: like this.
I like this a lot.
Emily: Yeah, I like that a lot better.
Like, just Al Pacino yelling at
you about the chicken that does
Heath: tic tac toe.
I like this.
I like this as, like, Al Pacino is the
official, like, AR augmented reality
assistant who just talks to you about
whatever neighborhood you're about.
You're in in New York.
Can it be called fan of man?
I'm a fan of man!
That last line, the humanist line,
like, there is a real college level
nihilism that, like, Yeah, it doesn't
really hold up when you think about it
super hard, but on the surface, it's
down to the fact that the only way
Jeremy: out is for both of them to
commit suicide at the end, like, that's
the only way to get out of this system
is for both of them to kill themselves.
Emily: Yeah, and that's, I mean,
like, when I, 1998, 1997, when this
movie came out and I was watching
it in high school, I was like, give
me that, mmm, that's, aw, look at,
aw, fucking English class, let's go.
The crow is playing
Jeremy: on the next screen.
Yeah, that's right.
Emily: The crow is like my dessert
from the movie, like this hamburger of
a movie, like this, this movie with,
like, the most delectable vegetables.
that you've ever had in this hamburger
covered in like crazy sauce or whatever.
Heath: Yeah, no, but she knows performance
is like, hey, we made vegetables,
but we fried them in bacon grease.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Black bean patty with two pounds
of American cheese melted on top of it.
Totally.
Heath: Yeah, we gave you a veggie burger,
but also put regular bacon on top.
Jeremy: It's like that, it's like
that millionaire's bacon that's got
like the hot sauce and everything
baked into it too, like, yeah.
Heath: We feed the pigs so
much gold leaf that the meat
just comes out naturally gold.
Jeremy: Oh, okay, let's get into
a really nuanced conversation.
Is the movie feminist?
Heath: No!
I'm gonna say no.
Emily: I'm gonna say LOL.
That's an acronym for Let's
Opt Wait, no, it's not.
Heath: I spent two hours going,
Wow, what a pretty thankless
role for Connie Nielsen.
And then they're like, what if incest?
Emily: Yeah, not only is she is a woman.
In charge of her sexuality,
but she is also his sister?
Okay, put she in the That was unnecessary.
Maybe, maybe keep
Heath: that card in the deck.
Maybe wait till the deal has been
sealed before you flip that one over.
Yeah, talk about my family.
He was
Jeremy: ready to sleep with her
before his wife went insane.
Like, before.
Yes!
Heath: Yeah.
Emily: He was
Heath: ready
Jeremy: to sleep with Connie Nielsen
when they were talking in front of fake
New York ten minutes into the movie.
Heath: Yeah, that is something is like,
and I think we mentioned before, but yeah,
given how much of the movie he spends
clearly lusting after Connie Nielsen,
and the only thing that really stops him
is Oh, it's the devil's plot and it's
incest, it really does make it hard to
believe that there's been a real arc
where he goes, Oh, I actually love my
wife, who I ignored and had committed.
Right.
He doesn't, he doesn't
Jeremy: say that he's bothered
by the incest part, really.
That never actually comes
up in his No, he never,
Emily: I never reacts
really to the incest at all.
There's,
Heath: there's
Jeremy: no moment where it's revealed
that she's actually his half sister
and he's like, I wanted to have sex
Heath: with her.
I'd like to believe it's because the AD,
the ADR dimension of the sister because
Testaian just came back and we're like,
we feel like there should be more incest.
Happier ending, more incest.
Emily: We'll only check on this
extra ending if there's incest.
Heath: Right.
The test audience was George R.
R.
Martin just sending in a hundred cards.
I think Ben is right, but I don't
know that that's the reason.
I think that literally the writing
was like, what's a real reason
that Keanu wouldn't have sex with
this woman that he's dreamt about
having sex with the entire movie?
They're like, well, let's
just make it his sister.
Honestly, no, what it probably was, was
like A producer or an executive at the
studio was like, Well, I don't get it.
Why does it have to be her?
Why couldn't he just have Keanu
sleep with any random person?
And they're like, Fine.
It's, she's also the devil's kid,
so it's like, half devil plus
half devil equals full devil.
Does that make sense?
And then the executive was like, yes, once
it became incest, I understood the plot.
Jeremy: In fairness, he has been trying,
but Keanu was not interested in sleeping
with the only Asian representation
in this movie, his Asian prostitute.
Right.
There's just in from France.
Oh, and there's obviously the chicken guy.
Right.
Yeah, the chicken also Asian.
Yes,
Emily: whose line whose line
in English is tic tac toe.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So I guess it's a natural transition
into, uh, how do we feel about
how race is handled in this film?
Emily: I mean, some of it is
less bad than other parts.
But
Heath: bad, like, uh, to quote
Keanu, the whole you being black.
We're right out of the gate with,
right out of the gate with that.
And that made me go, whoa.
Emily: Yeah, I mean that, that, like, in
a different context might have, if there
was a little bit more context around
that, might have been, like, funny.
Of just, like, Keanu
Reeves being like, The
Heath: context of we're in
Gainesville, Florida didn't help.
Emily: No, it didn't.
It did not.
Jeremy: I mean, it helped, just maybe
not in the way the movie meant for it to.
It made that sentiment more believable.
Yes,
Heath: exactly.
Yes.
Emily: Yeah.
Like, there are layers to that that may
have worked in a different situation, but,
you know, it's not as isolated as it was.
It did not.
Jeremy: Yeah, and we talked
about Latino gangster whose
wife is doing crack at home.
Yeah.
Creole
Emily: immigrant whose whole
thing is he is a voodoo priest.
Jeremy: Played by Delroy
Heath: Lindo.
These are all really good actors
who give like, even Craig T.
Nelson give like decent
performances to things that you
go, this doesn't deserve as good a
performance as you are giving it.
Yeah.
There's some roles where it's just
like, it definitely takes it out
to recognize the person in it.
And that was definitely a case where
you're watching the movie and then
just going like, That's Delroy Lindo!
Yeah.
Yeah.
I forget what's going on or who
he's even playing now, cause I'm now
distracted that Delroy Lindo is in this
Jeremy: movie.
For about two and a half minutes.
Heath: In an uncredited
Emily: role.
And it's fucked up that he's
not credited either, cause he's
Yeah, as in what, we're just
Heath: gonna forget
that it's Delroy Lindo?
No!
Well, he's not credited in I mean,
that's literally, that had to be like,
between seven to nine days of shooting.
Like, he's in that movie.
Emily: Yeah, it's like Ethan Hawke
in fuckin Last Onion or whatever.
Like, this is Right, right.
Yeah, maybe he didn't want to be credited
because he's like, what do you do?
Oh, I Do some tongue thing with the
tongue and some nails and kill a goat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The real, uh, angel heart
conundrum of representation there.
Still not as bad as angel heart, but yeah.
Anyway, so.
Jeremy: Yeah, mystifying.
Uh, yeah.
So, representation on
race stuff, not good.
Heath: No, also not great.
LGBT issues.
We get one lady licking another
lady's neck and Charlie's
not wanting to touch boobs.
Emily: Yeah, one might be licking
another lady's neck, which is a
display of lascivious temptation, not
like, you know, some people being in
love with each other or interacting
with each other in a natural way.
That's correct.
Yeah, the very, like, bad 90s college
poster of two chicks making out and,
you know, a dude saying that he's, like,
so cool with that, because, you know.
He watches a lot of girl on girl porn.
I'd like
Jeremy: to imagine that these
two women and John are just like
Going in and out of the building
behind every group that comes in.
They're just like, all right,
we're gonna Attempt these guys now.
We're gonna tempt these guys.
All right, girl.
We're gonna tempt the girl now.
Let's come on We're gonna get
somebody with this Paid for an hour
Emily: Come on Another person involved
Jeremy: It's a mice on those nipples.
Let's try it again.
Yeah Yeah
Heath: He's got no refrigerator.
Where's he gonna get ice?
Emily: He's got There's
Heath: nothing up there.
Emily: Freeway.
He wants Keanu Reeves to bite them.
That's why he wanted Keanu Reeves.
He wants him to bite them.
Heath: Bite their Head on up to
the penthouse and bring some ice.
Yeah, yeah.
Emily: That's why he has all those people
living with him in his giant penthouse.
He's like, Oh, shit.
Hey, Eddie.
Bring me
Heath: some ice.
Bring me some ice.
It keeps melting.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Do we want to talk at all about the,
uh, depiction of, mental illness and
how it's dealt with in this movie?
It's not
Emily: much.
I mean, yeah, we, we can talk about it.
It's bad.
It's basically like mental illness was
a curse from the devil, which is what
people have thought mental illness is.
In days of yore, which was a big
Heath: problem.
And if you get harmed in a way that you
clearly could not have done to yourself.
So it really depends on
the society, uh, you're in.
Yeah, if you
Jeremy: get harmed in ways that you
clearly could have not done to yourself,
cause she's got like a bite mark in the
middle of her back, which is not possible
for her to have done for herself, but
you can be committed within half an hour.
It's a speedy turnaround on this thing.
I
Heath: mean, he's very rich,
and he And she is a woman.
I'm pretty sure she got the rose.
I'm pretty sure he just like, signed
her up for the Rose Kennedy fast pass.
Jeremy: She's a woman who
decided to cut her long hair.
Of course she needs to go to the insane
Heath: asylum.
She gets 5150'd real quick.
Hey listeners, if you don't get that joke,
Google Rose Kennedy and see some fucked up
Emily: shit.
Oh yeah, that's a story.
I've listened to enough podcasts to know
Heath: about that one.
Yeah
Jeremy: the only other question we have on
here is, is how does it deal with class?
And, uh, again, poorly.
Yeah.
I
Heath: mean, there I'm not sure if the
Jeremy: demons are supposed to be
pretending to be homeless people, or they
have possessed homeless people, or what.
They start out as what seem to be
joggers, and then he is beaten to death
by some people experiencing homelessness
in the park who, um, move immediately
from asking, like, from trying to steal
from him to beating him with pipes.
Um, so.
Heath: Leafily.
Yeah.
Emily: I mean, if he was beaten to death
by his tenants I mean, I guess that would
be bad reflect badly on the devil, um,
but like, it's still, like, watching
these people beat up this asshole is
nice, and it could be better in another
movie, in another horror movie, but again.
Mixed messages.
Mixed
Heath: messages.
Let's talk about the fact that the, the
good the people of substance are the rural
Bible loving people that really would
never go to the horrific city, which is
full of urban people and terrible things.
Jeremy: Except for that one time that they
did and accidentally fucked the devil.
Heath: And accidentally fucked
the devil, but I got my kid out of
Emily: it.
They're not the people
of substance, though.
Like, there's no substance
to those characters.
Their position, only the context
of their position makes them, like,
the, the, gives them the moral,
Heath: like, Right, and, and,
and the people who are supposedly
have the moral high ground, he
just got a, a pedophile off.
Like, that's the guy who,
who you're worried about?
Yeah, the guy we're looking for.
That we're rooting for?
You're worried about him in, in New York?
Yeah, like, he's a
Jeremy: dad?
That should have been
what he said to his mom.
He should have just said, Mom,
I just got a pedophile off.
I'll be fine in New York.
Heath: I'm gonna be fine in New York.
Emily: Hmm.
Sorry, I was, I was
thinking about freezing.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, same.
I mean,
Heath: I, I mean, honestly,
the only surprise is that a 90s
movie about the devil in New York
doesn't involve Rudy Giuliani.
They probably tried certainly one of
the lesser demons that roam hard plane.
Yeah, I
Emily: Mean, he's he's definitely
one of those he fucked his sister to
create the Antichrist and it probably
just like the antichrist is out there
somewhere, like, Crushed in a cellar.
That's how you
Jeremy: get at Rudy Giuliani,
is demonic inbreeding.
Yeah, yeah,
Emily: yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think there's a
lot of, a lot of anti Christ.
That's what I'm
Heath: saying, the devil's plan is flawed,
like, What kind of fucking, just absolute
fail kid of an anti Christ are we gonna
end up with, like, You know what, maybe
that's it, where it's just like, Hey, we
made an amalgamation of all the Roy kids,
and it's just gonna wreck the planet.
And do you buy that for hundreds of
years you've been having sex with
as many women as you can to have
children and you couldn't get any
of those two kids to have sex with
each other to make the antichrist?
I'd like to imagine it was like, it
was like Guardian to the Galaxy 2
where Ico's just having a bunch of kids
trying to find one that's got the power.
But Pacino's just going around
like, I had so many kids and just
waiting for one to become a lawyer.
Right.
Then went to law school.
Emily: I guess, yeah, that's also,
but there's, there are more people
in law school now that there are
lawyers that are, or whatever the
fuck is the statistics that he quoted.
Heath: I don't think
that statistic was real.
I think, I think he made that up.
Emily: I think that's, well, most
statistics are made up, sorry.
90%?
Heath: I heard that 67 percent of
statistics are made up, on the spot.
Yeah, yeah, I read
Emily: that.
I read that too, on the
internet, which never lies.
Yes.
Heath: I read that 17% of the
internet is actually lies.
Yeah.
But, but that was in an article that was
claimed to be a hundred percent true.
Emily: Yeah.
That was in a completely unbiased article.
Yes.
So yeah.
I mean, there's some cool
devil stuff in this movie.
I think most of it is the, the
most of the, if we're, if we're
moving on to our recommendations.
section here.
The reason I would recommend this movie
is just to watch Al Pacino jump around.
Like this is 100.
It's just like when the prophecy watching
fucking Christopher Walken jump around
and like Viggo Mortensen be like,
Heath: Oh, Pacino.
Is that like his full power in this movie?
Emily: Yeah.
And the way they have like the, the
low lighting on him on his face and
like the raking light on his face and
they do such a good job with that.
And you know, Keanu Reeves does
a good, I mean, he does his best.
The scene where, I gotta say, like,
it's difficult to tell where Keanu
Reeves is being, he's acting at times,
and he's just not, but that bit in
the beginning where he smiles in the
mirror, and the smile, like, does not
reach his eyes at all, almost, like,
is so fucking weird that it works.
Like if he's just, he
just grimaces at himself.
Jeremy: Looks like he's convincing
himself to put a smile on even though
he is not happy about what's going on.
Yeah.
Emily: And that, that almost works for me.
But yeah, anyway, it's a lot
of really good small when
Jeremy: I place.
That you hate.
Do you feel like this
is worth people seeing?
Should they go check it out?
Heath: I agree with Emily that I
think the Pacino performance in
this is special and worth watching.
I do not think it's worth slogging through
a two and a half hour film just for those,
that, that 25 minutes worth of high point.
It's, it, it, I, I found
this to be a bit of a slog.
I had a good time doing it, but I,
it didn't, it, it was a slog for me.
Yeah, I I had a really
fun time with this movie.
I definitely recommend it I got it didn't
feel like two and a half hours for me.
I found it a pretty nice watch
but No, this is, this is one I
definitely, uh, I definitely recommend.
Cool.
Yeah,
Jeremy: I, I would say, like, it is
two and a half hours, but you don't
have to watch it particularly closely.
It's not very deep.
It's not, it is definitely something
you can put on in the background
and zoom, zoom in and out.
Like, if you're sitting down to watch
it, to talk about it on a podcast, you
might have to pay a little more attention.
But I think, like.
This is a movie that you can easily,
like, put on in the background
while you're doing something else.
If you don't mind seeing nudity,
there's a lot of nudity in this movie
in a way that there aren't often in,
in modern movies or modern thrillers.
The, the 90s just, uh, there's
Heath: This is surprising.
There's a horniness in this
movie that just feels quaint?
Yeah.
Emily: I think everything, after like
we've talked about it, it does make sense
that I watched this movie so many times
on like Cinemax or cable movie channel.
Especially because I was
always like catching it in a
different part of the movie.
There's a couple times where I
watched it all the way through.
But I've seen it so many times
in the various parts and I'm
like, oh, this is a good part.
Oh, that's a good part.
So it's like.
You know, you don't need
to watch the full movie.
Heath: Right.
I also think the movie, it
doesn't 100 percent know what it
wants, what it's striving to be.
Like, it's not horror enough to be
a great horror movie, and it's not
thrilling enough to be a great thriller,
so it's, if it sort of picked one of
those columns and dove into it hard,
I think it would be a better film.
Like, if this film was, 30 percent
more of either of those two
things, I think I would, I would
Jeremy: enjoy it more.
Yeah, it ultimately is a morality play.
Um, like, in a very, like, decided
way at the end that they're just like,
yeah, this is the only way out of it
is not do any of that fucked up shit.
Although I do think it's funny to
like, think of this movie as, uh,
like, now to think of this movie as,
like, An exercise in like white guilt
and just finding out that you're like
a nepo, baby at the end of the day.
Yeah That you got this job because you're
actually the devil's kid And that's why
Heath: you never lost like like that
sort of realization They think they
glide through it but I think we could
have stayed with that realization of
Keanu that like you didn't ever lose
because you're good at what you do.
You did it because you're the devil's kid.
Yeah.
And I think that's
Emily: interesting.
Attractive.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: That you didn't actually
earn any of this stuff that you
did have the boost that you never
felt like you had is very like.
It's a very interesting message from the
perspective of, like, 2023 white guilt
kind of thing, but it is, like, the
fourth most, the thing they're, like,
fourth or fifth most interested in in
this last scene the first one being,
could you please fuck your sister?
so, like, it's, it's kind of wild.
So, yeah, I, I don't I think it is
ultimately, like, worse than the
sum of its parts, if that makes
sense, like, all of the parts,
there's a lot of good parts, but the
movie doesn't really come together.
Heath: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah.
So it's, it's like ultimately like
it does not stick the landing at all.
But like there's a lot of fun things
to, to look at and watch in there.
It's an interesting, like it's a well
filmed film and there's some good
acting and there's some other acting.
Heath: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
Emily: a really good way of putting it.
Jeremy: And, you know, God bless
him, Keanu like accepted a pay cut
on this movie so that they could
afford Al Pacino's acting price, like
And that, like literally he was
like, yeah, I'll take a pay cut
just so you could pay Al Pacino.
And then Al Pacino like, found out
about that and donated the difference in
the, the salaries, which is like, cool.
They, they both seem like great guys.
Um, yeah.
Fan
Heath: of guys.
Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah ultimately, yeah, the,
the movie doesn't, doesn't quite work,
Heath: I feel like.
Keanu, as far as I can tell, there's
never been a negative Hollywood
story about Keanu in the, like,
30 years he has been active.
Emily: Or outside of Hollywood, we've,
apparently he was in town here in
the Bay Area, well, a few weeks ago.
And he, of all the places he visited,
he visited the fucking comic book store.
Hell
Heath: yeah.
Inside comics.
I can't promise that nobody has a
bad story about Al Pacino, though.
Oh, absolutely not.
Emily: Yeah, there's a long time.
He's been alive a long time
and standards have changed.
Jeremy: Yeah, so, uh, I guess that
just leaves, uh, recommendations.
Heath, did you have anything you wanted
to recommend coming off of this movie,
anything people should go check out?
Heath: Oh my gosh, this is
a, this is a great question.
I am looking for the name of the
book that I'm reading right now.
It is a fantastic examination of the
history of Siskel and Ebert which were
two critics that I grew up with and
it sort of tells the story of their
lives, their relationship together how
they got put together and growing up
in Chicago I was a big fan about this.
Hold on one second, I'm
pulling up the book.
Uh, Opposable Thumbs is the
name of the book, and it's How
Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies.
And it's written by Matt Singer, and I'm
having a great time reading it right now.
It is a really lovely nonfiction
book about their relationship.
Emily: That's awesome.
That sounds really good.
Heath: Yeah, it's fun.
It's really cool.
Because if you know anything about
Siskel and Ebert, you'll know, like,
they were not fans of each other.
They did not like being paired up.
And, and that sort of,
they were super competitive
throughout their entire careers.
And also, they were the first people to
sort of bring Movie criticism into the the
television age and it was it's very cool.
Nice.
Jeremy: That's great Yeah, Ben,
did you have anything you wanted
Heath: to recommend?
Yeah, I think if you want to see more, you
know Show that kind of isn't exploring the
nuances of the law You know, the morality
of that and how it can corrupt people.
I would definitely check out
Harvey Birdman, attorney at law.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
Emily, what have you got?
Emily: Well, I was going to say true
detective because, and it was weird.
Are you talking about
fucking Matthew McConaughey?
Cause I'm just like
starting true detective now.
And I'm like, yeah, this is,
these are the characters that.
You know, are being depicted here, but
in this movie, we're like, supposed
to be like, oh, isn't Keanu cute?
But he's, you know, anyway, I'd like to
see how these characters interact with
Al Pacino's Devil, and I gotta recommend,
I do this a lot, but any Devil movie,
and we're not talking about this movie
this time, because it's not a horror
movie, and we're probably not going to
talk about it, is the 1967 Bedazzled.
With Peter cook and Dudley Moore.
It's one of my favorite movies.
The devil and him just fucking with
people and the, the Peter cook the
devil has a grand scheme that is
ridiculous, but it's supposed to be and
then just the, the comedy of errors.
Which actually plays out a little bit
better and a little bit more comfortably
than the comedy, most, for the most
part, the, the comedy of errors in this
film the tragedy of errors, perhaps,
but yeah, so, that's a fun one.
Another dessert for after watching
a movie that's about lawyers,
Heath: lawyers,
Jeremy: not lawyers, the worst.
Yeah, so, so many things to recommend.
We did this is not my ultimate
recommendation, but we did go
see the Marvels this weekend,
my daughters and my wife and I,
uh, which was really fantastic.
I feel like it's gotten a lot
of maligning from people who I
don't think have seen the movie.
Because it is, like, ultimately the
sort of fun and enjoyable movie that got
people into the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
It is fun and exciting and representative
in a way that a lot of movies aren't.
And, you know, having talked about
the new Candyman remake from a couple
years ago on here I love Nia DaCosta
as a director, and she does a great
job in this of making, like, things
that are often incomprehensible in,
action films, especially in superhero
films, like feel weighty and important.
A lot of the fight scenes in particular
are well directed and well put together.
And the way I think it's great.
Cosign.
Heath: Yeah.
I cosigned that.
It was charming fun.
It's not perfect, but it
is super charming fun.
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
I think Completely unrelated to
anything we've talked about here.
The thing I want to talk about,
or I do want to recommend, which I
also checked out this, this weekend.
So I went to a, uh, local pro
wrestling show with my friend, Dave.
There's a, uh, a East coast
wrestling association.
That's known as deadlock pro
wrestling, which I saw here in Durham.
And it's sort of like.
It's the sort of wrestling that I love
that, like, reminds me why I enjoy
wrestling because, like, there's a lot
of people that are, like, going out
there and, and just, like, putting on
an incredible show, doing a lot of,
like, fun character stuff, and, like,
my, my favorite thing is when wrestling
doesn't take itself too seriously, like,
it can be important and serious in the
moment, but, like, my favorite character
that, that I, I, I met watching this
stuff this weekend, because this is the
first one of those shows I've been to
There's this guy named Andrew Everett,
and his thing is that he's a giant.
And if you've watched, like, Guys in
wrestling that are giants like Andre
the Giant and the Big Show, they have a
certain way that they like approach it.
They are the guys who, you know,
they walk up and they step over the
top rope instead of ducking between
the ropes and they chokeslam people.
They do big feeling moves and, um,
you know, they will occasionally do
something that requires them to run.
People be like, Oh,
he's great for his size.
Look at, look at how he moves.
And you know, they do all
the stuff and they wear like
the singlets and everything.
So this guy, Andrew Everett,
does all of that stuff.
The thing is, he's 5'5 and like, his
whole thing is that he's a giant.
So like, he's out here at 5'5
stepping over the top rope, wearing
a, you know, single strap thing,
and like, chokeslamming people.
from 5 foot 5 and it's the most,
it's the most wonderful thing.
Um, and that, you know, he's coming out
and giving these intimidating speeches
and people reacting to him like he's
7 feet tall and I fucking adore that.
Like, it's so good.
Emily: Can I ask a question?
Was this recommendation, perhaps
related to the, the huge size
difference between Keanu Reeves and
Al Pacino in this movie and their
respective, like, opposite presence
on the camera, like, on the screen.
Jeremy: I mean, it, it feels like that.
Like, that's, you know, he's, Al
Pacino is absolutely joke slamming
Keanu Reeves in this movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it's really great because there's, they've
got a lot of, like, younger wrestlers,
guys who are really enthusiastic, who are
excited to be there, and they put on like
a great show for, I think it was probably
about 60, 70 people, but they were just
like, going full tilt, super excited to
be there, um, and they've, you can see
some of their stuff online, they have
like highlight videos on their, their
website, but also they have like a, You
know, subscription model thing where you
can buy their videos individually or you
can get one every time they do a thing.
But, um, yeah, they're great.
Deadlock Pro Wrestling.
I'd absolutely recommend them to
anybody who enjoys pro wrestling or
just likes, you know, a good show.
They're a lot of fun.
Yeah.
So, uh, let's go ahead
and wrap this thing up.
Before we go, Heath, I would love for
you to let people know where they can
find, uh, Find you online and find
out more about what you're working on.
Heath: Absolutely!
The best way to stay in touch with
me is currently on Instagram, where
my handle is at hcorson, that is me.
Alternately, you can find me on Blue
Sky that is where I'm taking up since
Twitter is, becomes such a hellscape.
So, you can find me there!
Nice!
Nice!
Jeremy: And, uh, do you have
anything, uh, coming out
Heath: soon, or?
You know what?
Get in touch with me on Instagram,
and, and I will be promoting some
stuff coming very, very soon.
Uh, I've got some comic book work that
I'm excited to talk about that I can't
talk about just yet, but I hopefully will
be able to announce it very, very soon.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
And, uh, Ben, what about you?
Where can people find you online?
Heath: Yeah.
You can find me at BenConComics.
com, social media, BenConComics, and
check out my novel, El Campo Wednesday
Weekend, and my, manga from Tokyo
Pop, Captain Lazerhawk, a Blood Dragon
remix, a tie in to the Netflix series.
Jeremy: Nice.
And, uh, Emily, what about you?
I'm
Emily: lurking.
I'm lurking on, uh, Instagram,
Mega underscore Moth, pretty much
everything else at Mega Moth, Blue
Sky the corpse of Twitter, I dance
upon as Mega Moth, and, uh, Patreon.
Megamoth on Patreon.
thEy have free tiers now,
so, you know, might as well.
And megamoth.
net, which is basically a
link to all of those things.
Jeremy: And, uh, me, you can find
me at my website at JeremyWhitley.
com.
On Blue Sky and on Tumblr,
I'm just JeremyWhitley.
Uh, on Twitter and
Instagram, I'm jrome58 still.
Uh, I think the way Twitter is right now
is put very succinctly this weekend when I
tweeted about how I liked the Marvels and
like 30 people, uh, showed up to tell me.
how much they hated me.
My wife's like, when did
you get so many haters?
And I was like, these
people don't follow me.
They don't follow any
of the people I follow.
They're literally out here term searching
the marbles just so they can tell people
how wrong they are for enjoying it.
That's a
Heath: great use of time.
That's a sign of a life being well lived.
Right.
Jeremy: Yeah, so that's, that's
the state of Twitter at the moment.
And, uh, yeah, you can, uh, go pre
order my, my upcoming book from Titan.
It'll be out in February.
It's called The Cold Ever After.
It's, uh, queer Arthurian noir.
It's gonna be, it's wild.
It's, it's the first, uh, first
real grown up book I've written.
So, uh, I hope people enjoy that.
As for the podcast, you can find
us on Patreon at Progressively
Horrified and Progressivelyhorrified.
transistor.
fm and on Twitter at ProgHorrorPod,
as well as wherever you're
listening to this right now.
And we would love, wherever you're
listening to this right now, for you
to rate and review the podcast so
other people can find it and so that
it can be easier for them to find
so you can keep making this stuff so
that you can listen to more of it.
It's really a self serving thing.
Just get out there and do it.
Thank you so much to all
of you for joining us.
And thank you so much to,
uh, Heath for coming out.
Yeah,
Heath: this was huge fun.
Thanks for hosting.
Thanks for having me.
Jeremy: And, thanks as always to
Ben and Emily for joining us and
until next time, stay horrified.