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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
SHAE HILL:
Welcome to today's episode of Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited for our final episode in Season 13, where we've been journeying through the topic of control. In today's episode, Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel will help us stop co-signing onto others' chaos, and instead, by the power of the Holy Spirit, choose to live self-controlled.
SHAE:
Like I said earlier, this podcast has a clear mission to help you work through what you've walked through. While we often want to quickly get over things, sometimes we simply just have to walk through it. Going through is what will help us get to the other side with a greater understanding that God has always been and will always be with us.
SHAE:
We may experience heartbreak, rejection, crippling anxiety, and relational hardships on this side of eternity, but with the Lord's help, we will survive it and help others believe the same is possible for them. That's why I'm so grateful for the trauma-informed coaching certification from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University.
SHAE:
Taught by leading experts in mental health, trauma, and ministry, it equips you with practical, biblically grounded tools to walk alongside hurting people with wisdom, compassion, and maybe most importantly, hope. Right now, you can apply for a full-tuition scholarship to this $1,600 program, and if you're approved, you can get started for just $99. Visit lightuniversity.com/Lysa to apply today, or you can find the link below.
SHAE:
Friend, wherever you're listening from today, we'd love to hear what's resonating with you and also what questions you still have. So leave us a comment as you watch or listen to this episode. Okay, now let's hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel.
LYSA TERKEURST:
Here's what we cannot control: other people. We cannot control their actions. We cannot control their reactions. We cannot control the narrative. We cannot control what other people do or what they don't do. But here's where the Bible is crystal clear. There is a type of control that we are to exercise, and that, my friends, is self-control.
LYSA:
Have you ever been in a situation where there's someone who brings a lot of chaos into whatever environment they walk into? I don't know if you have this situation in your family or in your friend group or at your work, um, but I do. I have people in my life that I know that they almost get some kind of joy or thrill by stirring up chaos on the outside, and here's why.
LYSA:
Because they have chaos on the inside, and they're reaching a state of equilibrium, and they wanna invite you to participate in the chaos because that intensity helps them feel something that they want to feel. I'm joined today with, of course, Jim Cress and Dr. Joel Muddamalle for this episode three in this whole series on control.
LYSA:
So I have a little story from when I was a little girl that I walked out into my front yard, and I noticed an anthill. I became fascinated with this anthill. They were chaotic and, you know, just lots of life inside of this. And I thought, "Hmm, I wanna kick that anthill." So I kicked it and stepped back, and boy, the ants emerged, and they just became, like, really, really active.
LYSA:
And I can't really explain why I did this. But I thought that it would be kinda fun to stand in the anthill.
JIM CRESS:
For real?
LYSA:
I did.
DR. JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Were they red ants? So I don't know what kind of ants they were, but they, they, they stung, for sure.
JIM:
Like fire ants.
LYSA:
And ask me how I know. Because I stood in that, looking down and watching them crawl on my shoes, but the thing is they didn't just stay with my shoes. They started crawling up my legs. Right. And the sting and the chaos that ensued, it was terrible. And I instead of-
JIM:
I'm going into anaphylactic shock just listening to this right now ...
LYSA:
Okay. Well, thankfully, that was not part of the story. But I, I just remember as I look back on that situation, I remember this desire to participate in a chaos that I was never supposed to ever participate in.
LYSA:
And here's the thing, there's really no mystery about what will happen if you mess with an anthill and decide to stand right in the middle of it. No matter how much you hope this time will be different, ants are gonna do what ants do.
JOEL:
Lysa, you do realize- ... you not only participated in the chaos, but you set the chaos off. Like, you
LYSA:
Okay. They were, they were underneath. There, there was already chaos underneath, but then the chaos became part of my environment when I messed with-
JOEL:
You stepped into the chaos ...
LYSA:
yes, I messed with it. I, and, and not only did I mess with it, they, they messed with me.
JOEL:
Yeah, sure they, sure they did.
LYSA: And so you know what the ants did? The ants do what ants are gonna do.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
They bite-
JOEL:
They bite you
LYSA:
... when they feel threatened. And it's much wiser to acknowledge that the anthill is there, but not jump into it, obviously. That's such a good word picture-
JIM:
It is. Without doubt
LYSA:
... honestly, for self-control. Our job is not to fix the ants or to try to convince them to stop biting. Our job is to recognize the reality of the anthill, and then make wise choices in how we respond when we encounter an anthill.
JOEL:
You know, Lysa, in our household, we have a saying for what, what happened there. You know what it's called? It's called a self-
LYSA:
Self-whoopin'.
JIM:
A self-whoopin'?
LYSA:
I just c- I got little Lysa in my mind being-
JIM:
I love the picture
JOEL:
so inquisitive and like, "I'm gonna step in the anthill."
LYSA:
I know, Joel. It wasn't like I was having a lot of logical thoughts.
JOEL:
Right. Oh, yeah. I get it.
LYSA:
I was just, I saw something, and I was like, "Yeah, I need to jump right in that." You know?
JIM:
How do you know you are being very spiritual when the Bible says, "Consider the ant"?
LYSA:
Hey, maybe that's-
JIM:
It's in Proverbs .
LYSA:
.. what I was doing, Jimbo.
JIM:
Maybe, because that predates One Day-
JOEL:
I doubt that. I'm gonna have to put a theological correction to that. I cannot let that stand. Um, but I do think you point out something that's really, really important, something I've been thinking a lot, a- a lot about as well, is that chaos seems to have its own, like, gravitational pull.
LYSA:
It does.
JIM:
That’s good.
JOEL:
There, there is something about watching the chaos that almost, like, it's like a black hole and starts to draw you in until you're like, "Why did... Like, what could have possessed me to do something like that?" And then all of a sudden you're living in the context of that chaos.
LYSA:
That's so good, Joel, and when we participate in the chaos, we will ourselves become more chaotic.
JIM:
True.
LYSA:
So it is officially time for another Confession.
JIM:
Doesn’t it feel like you're on a game show, the last three episodes.
JOEL:
Yeah, it's like three out of three over here. Like, what is going on?
LYSA:
Okay. So today I wanna talk about how sometimes when we get drawn into the chaos of another person or the chaos of a situation, we will start adding to the chaos, and here's how we start adding to the chaos.
LYSA:
We do things that are on the list I'm about to, uh, reveal, and I wrote about this in Making Peace With What I Can't Control, but today, I want us to acknowledge how we can sometimes not only find ourselves in the midst of chaos, but participating in it. And trying to control the play, control the narrative, control what another person's perception of something is, when we're doing that, we are, we are running a high risk of participating-
JIM:
Sure.
LYSA: in the chaos, but also adding to it. So let's get right to the list.
JIM:
Let me guess, you're about to kick another ant hill with us right here, right?
LYSA:
Um, something like that.
JIM:
It's absolutely coming.
LYSA:
Okay.
JOEL:
I think she's gonna stand in the middle.
LYSA:
Old habits die hard. All right. Here we go.
LYSA:
Um, okay. The first one is personalizing, taking someone's negative statements as a personal attack against us.
JIM:
We're supposed to raise hands. Jim here. . Sure.
JOEL:
Yeah. Joel, for sure. I think the, the thing about the personalizing for me is, uh, I, I think about, I think, Jim, you said it before, just because somebody lays something down doesn't mean that you have to-
LYSA:
Pick it up
JOEL:
pick that thing up, right? Um, but the personalizing is taking someone's negative statements as a personal attack against us because the part of, for me, that's the control is, like, I can't believe they could think that about me. . I've got to figure out how to change their perception of me because it's so incongruent with who I am.
LYSA:
Or for me- I know ... sometimes it's when- Um, my oldest daughter, Hope, is very, very, very wise. And she'll be talking about something, and she never mentions that it's about me, but I start personalizing it, and it suddenly feels like attack against me. Yeah. And so I will get defensive, which we're gonna go to next.
LYSA:
I'll get defensive, and she'll say, "Mom, don't personalize this. We're just having a discussion about a, you know, an obstacle or about a tension point or whatever, but don't take this so personally." Because what will happen is it's not just something that she's pointing out that maybe we need to do better at or that I need to get better at.
LYSA:
Suddenly, I personalize it and I think, "Oh, she thinks I'm a bad mom." She never said that I'm a bad mom. She doesn't think I'm a bad mom. I mean, she, she really, really loves me as her mom. But I can personalize it and make it almost like a personal attack against me.
JIM:
What, what drives that for me, by the way, Hope is so, uh, such an amazing person, and her and Michael, what they do in, in leading us at Haven Place. I mean, lives are being... They're being changed there. Let's be honest about it. I sense, though, with the personalization on my part, we said if it's hysterical, it's historical. We'll just get past that, but mine goes to the shame part of me. S-H-A-M-E, self-hatred, as I've said, at my expense, that I'll feel like you're saying, which you've alluded to.
JIM:
They're not saying that at all, but I feel like they're saying, "You don't really know me" or, or that I'm a bad person, and it'll come on me that quickly back based into my life story. So I, I'm aware that it'll come into that, and I'll feel it, then self-regulation lets me get back with the brain back online and go, "That's not what they're saying."
JOEL:
That's right.
JIML
To be curious, not furious, right? Yeah. Be curious and say, "Okay, hang on there." But it'll come on me pretty quick, this one.
LYSA:
And we have to remember, too, that trauma is not just the facts of what happened. Trauma is often perpetuated in our life, the effects of it because we then develop a story we tell ourselves because of that trauma.
LYSA:
And if the story we tell ourselves is kind of- Someone else kicks that anthill, if you will You know, and gets a little close to something we already fear is true about ourselves. And it's only natural to personalize it, but when we do, we're gonna add to the chaos of that situation.
LYSA:
Okay, the second one is getting defensive.
JIM: Two hands up.
LYSA:
Yep, and that one is feeling the need to quickly justify our actions, and maybe even sometimes using a mean-spirited tone or resorting to yelling, which inadvertently legitimizes their actions or their, their accusations, um, of our bad intentions. And I have seen this play out before. I will think, "I'm gonna go into this situation with this person.
LYSA:
I already know there's gonna be chaos, and I will stay calm. I will stay calm." "I will stay calm." But the minute that they hint at misunderstanding or accusing me of having bad intentions when I know for sure I did not have bad intentions-
JOEL:
Yeah, you ain't calm no more
LYSA:
... it's so ... It just happens so quickly. Suddenly I'm participating and adding to the chaos because I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're misunderstanding me." And then if they escalate, then I can escalate. Like, "No, that's not true," you know? Right. And you can see how that chaos just grows and grows and grows in that dynamic.
JIM:
Here's a recent one that happened with me and with Jessica, my wife. Uh, I'm just working on ... I wanted to be very attuned to her in my life. Whether that comes out and appears to her or not, I'm working on it really behind the scenes. Uh, we were in a conversation literally about her, uh, scheduling, like, a doctor's appointment, and she had a date set. She's on the phone with the person and scheduling, and she turned and said, "Hey, they could do it earlier.
JIM:
It would be better in September.” My September is crazy right now with travel, other things, and there's two days I had off in August." And I said, "Can we leave it there?" And she said, "Well, the September one might work." And, and she ... And I just had ... My face was like, "I, I ... You don't know this." I couldn't say it to her.
JIM:
She's on the phone. Uh- I, I, I can't do that. Get off the phone, all like that, and I was actually almost in the next room, but within eye sh- eye shot and ear shot. And she said, "You know, this is ... I, I just am not okay with you making that face at me that looks like you're disgusted with me." It came on me so fast, and I thought, "I've been praying.
JIM: I
I'd just gotten back literally two hours before from a trip out of town. I wanna reconnect with you. We have a lot of good stuff we've got going." And in a moment ... And I got defensive so quickly. I couldn't even stop myself. And, and she said, with her voice a little bit raised, like, "You're right now not listening to me."
JIM:
And I'm like- I, I, you, yeah, uh, but, I mean, it's almost that non-verbal stuttering. We talked and worked through it. It got messy. In the end, I said, "You know, it really doesn't matter what was going on in my internal world. I wanna stop. I don't wanna give you a face that looks like, 'What are you doing?'"
JIM:
You know, "This is crazy." And I said, "May I at least..." I m- said I'm sorry, made the amends. So I get permission to still be human and messy. And inside what I realized was underlying me was I really wanna reconnect coming off this trip. Then it was- My face was, "Oh, I, my calendar in September, I can't tell the lady on the phone right now, 'Yeah, we can schedule this procedure.'
JIM:
I, I, I can't. I literally cannot do it." When I made my amends, I said, "I wish I would've just said, 'Honey, I can't do September.'" But my face before I knew it was like "Ah, I mean, I can't," and all like that. So I wanna say for all these, 'cause I relate to especially that one, getting defensive, I always say interview the defensiveness for me.
JIM:
I'll do it later often. I'll say, "What was I defending?" Versus, "You're being defensive." What was I defending? And inside was a perceived inadequacy and a sense that she doesn't think I'm caring primarily for her. And so inside, when we were able to circle back, 'cause we talk for every rip, there's a repair.
JIM:
So on all these is to recognize them, and then to give myself grace and to take ownership. See, my motive there I do not believe was bad. I'm going, "Ah, I can't," but the modus operandi was it looked like I was just like, "Get a grip," you know? "Fix this thing. Don't ask me to do this." So whether it's my intentional, intentionality to do something wrong or unhealthy, I just wanna keep circling back and saying, "I wish I would've handled that differently."
JIM:
The vulnerability hangover, remember after that, and Bessel van der Kolk, lead trauma researcher, finds this. When you have a moment of being trauma-triggered even a little bit, the number one thing in his research he found was shame. When you finally st- the brain starts coming back online, like, what just happened here?
JIM:
It's like emotional vertigo. What, what, what just happened here? You'll feel shame, like I blew it again, or I did something else.
LYSA:
One thing that's really helped me is to understand what I'm doing when I get defensive. And part of the driving force for me is I wanna control the narrative. So it does really come back to controlling.
LYSA:
And I think if they make a statement that's not true, and I don't immediately correct that statement, then my silence in those seconds-
JIM:
Come on
LYSA:
... is an affirmation that what they're saying is actually true. And that's not an excuse to get defensive. But one thing that I'm doing that is helping me is recognizing I don't have to correct it in the second that they say it.
JIM:
That is so good.
LYSA:
After they finish, I can take a pause, take a breath, and then respond with a very logical statement without getting defensive, elevated, and adding to the chaos. Again, our goal here is self-control. We cannot control the chaos of another person, but we can control how much we put ourselves in that kind of environment.
LYSA:
We can control the boundaries, the healthy boundaries we've put in place. . And we can control what we do, what we don't do, what we say, and what we don't say. Okay, let's go to the next one. So we've covered personalizing, getting defensive. The next is disconnecting, giving the other person the silent treatment to detach, avoid, or punish them with our disengagement.
LYSA:
I don't wanna acknowledge that I do this but sometimes, in... I'll jump from extremes. I'll go from being defensive to suddenly just saying, "It's just not worth it."
JOEL:
Right.
LYSA:
"They're not listening to what I'm saying, and I'm just gonna go quiet," because getting quiet is saying something without saying something.
JIM:
Okay, Vulcan mind meld here. That's from Star Wars. Star Trek, sorry. Um, what you are getting quiet externally, and I relate to, and I know you do, too, 'cause you talked about it earlier. Quiet externally, but I bet it's not quiet internally.
LYSA:
Oh, definitely not.
JIM:
What's, what are, what, like, what's going on internally?
LYSA:
Um-
JIM:
Same event
LYSA:
... anger.
JIM:
You have anger.
LYSA:
Anger.
JIM:
Yep.
LYSA:
Frustration. Like, "Oh, okay, so you're gonna treat me that way after I know my intentions were good?" This is what's happening in the script in my head. "Fine, then I won't talk to you."
JIM:
Quid pro quo.
LYSA:
Because the more I talk, the more I feel like you're using my words against me, and so I'm not gonna give you that kind of power.
JOEL:
Right.
LYSA:
And so-
JIM:
Very logical, isn't it, though, if you think about it. There's a real logic to that. Okay.
LYSA:
But it's not always healthy, and it is sometimes this lack of self-control. Instead of calmly responding or calmly exiting the situation, just to go radio silent, you know, it is... If I'm super honest, it is a little bit of a way to make a point without saying words.
JIM:
One of the things for me I try to apply, did you notice I said try, is in you're in th- when you're in this situation, we're all in them, been very vulnerable on this season, my goodness, uh, truly, if you want calm- Be calm. Watch, if you want calm, bring calm. And I think even Aristotle saying we are what we repeatedly do, there is a new, with neuroplasticity, wiring that goes on that I wanna be able to bring calm.
JIM:
Many of us need to shift from being peace keepers, not good, to being peace makers. And I have found in my own life, I do not always succeed at this, but there's some days I'm proud of myself. I went, "I wanted calm here, so I brought calm," and I learned to self-regulate, to, to calm myself down. And one of our great themes therapeutically is to co-regulate, which means I have a good friend, phone somewhere, or just sitting as we've done with each other, and I co-, which means with, co-regulate.
JIM:
That you help me get regulated without shaming me or I help you. That's the co-regulation. That's why we need each other.
LYSA:
And this is something we gotta practice, too.
JIM:
Totally.
LYSA:
It's not something that we hope is just gonna happen by natural-
JIM:
Yeah, good luck
LYSA:
... like, process. It, it really is something that we have to make an intentional choice to practice, not getting personal, like personalizing things, not getting defensive, not disconnecting.
LYSA:
Um, and I've heard you say this before, Joel. What we practice, we get better at. So if we wanna get better at personalizing getting defensive, disconnecting, then we practice that. But if we want to- Absolutely ... exercise self-control, then we have to practice self-control. Okay, let's go to the next one. Pouting.
JOEL:
Yep. That's me, 100%.
JIM:
Say more. Tell us more.
JOEL:
Uh, so pouting, bringing, uh, a doom and gloom attitude into the situation, sometimes without realizing we're putting an immature version of ourselves on display. Confession, I realize exactly what I'm doing. So-
JIM:
What?
JOEL:
That's a, that's a soft sell.
JIM:
You're intentional.
JOEL:
Yeah, that's a soft sell. Thank you for the soft sell. I'll just, you know, for sake of transparency, continue to be transparent. Um, the pouting and the disconnecting, to me, are kinda connected. Um, in that way. They're, they're, they're flowing from each other. The thing that I think about, uh, as well, this happened, uh, recently actually, just in our own family.
JOEL:
Uh, and the dynamics that are kinda happening. My daughter MJ is six. Um, and she's, like, the most perceptive little girl ever, you know? And something happened. I think I got upset, and I just went into, like, my pouting routine, you know? And so it's like, "I'm not gonna talk to anybody, and I'm just gonna grab my book, and go sit out by myself. And, and I'm gonna sit down, but I'm gonna plop down a little bit heavier than I normally would, and then I'll just-"
LYSA:
Shut the cabinet harder.
JOEL:
Yeah.
LYSA:
Slide the door a little more firmly.
JOEL:
100%.
JIM:
Sounds like real productive reading there.
JOEL:
Yeah, yeah. And, and li- And I gotta do the, the hard exhales a couple times, just so anybody who passes by, they know. And then, um, you know, Emmy ran over to me. And she, she goes Dada, you know when you do this it makes life hard for all of us, right?
JIM:
She did not.
JOEL:
Six years old.
JIM:
Out of the mouths of babes.
JOEL:
Six years old. Like, right, just, like, confronted me, like, right there, and I was like, "Oh." And to that idea of chaos is there are things that we do that brings chaos, that, um, stirs up an environment, that you think you're doing it for yourself to get what you want, but in the process you're actually, like, dysregulating everybody else that's in your environment. And so when you participate in things like that, it might make you feel better in the moment, um, but we also have to think, like, I keep thinking about, like, personalizing, getting defensive, disconnecting, pouting. And then I think the phrase for all of these that we go through is like, okay, but at what cost? At what cost is it going to, um, have on yourself and on others?
LYSA:
Such a good question. At what cost? Okay. The next one is getting critical or judgmental, and that's when we start fighting fire with fire, saying critical things about someone who has criticized us, accusing them of equal or worse things.
LYSA:
The next one is lying.
JIM:
Yes. I'm sorry, that one, 'cause it ties into being defensive. When you said that I'm like, "Haven't we done that one before? Under defensive-"
JOEL:
I thought you were about to do lying.
JIM:
No.
LYSA:
That's what I thought, too.
JOEL:
I said, "What?"
JIM:
I'm saving that one for you. No, I'm kidding.
JOEL:
Oh, thank you.
JIM:
See? Critical or judgmental. No, that one is... That's that quid pro quo, that tit for tat thing that I'll feel. It'll be on me before I know it. I'll go, "You're gonna go there, right? You wanna go that? You can't handle the truth." So I just wanted to... I thought we were raising our hands on which one we-
JOEL:
Oh, we are.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, that one." Yeah. Yeah.
LYSA:
All right. So then the next one is lying.
JOEL:
Yeah, yeah.
LYSA:
And this one is trying to make ourselves look better by inserting statements or pieces of evidence that are not fully true. Yeah. You know, what's interesting, uh, I don't know if you remember the episode that we did where we talked about how many lies the average person tells in a day. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a good day. Yeah. And how w- ... we're like, "No, we don't lie. We don't lie. We don't lie." And then when we dug underneath the surface and we did a confession moment and I listed out all these things we could potentially be either lying by, like, like, not quite telling the whole truth or lying-
JIM:
It's like the Taco Bell story
LYSA:
o- omission, you know. Or saying something just to avoid a hard conversation which, you know, could be lying. But, um, I-
JOEL:
Yeah, lies of omission, commission. Uh-huh. Just-
JIM:
Leaving the omission one's such a big one for me. That's what I was kidding you about. It's, it's overused, the Taco Bell stuff. But we were- We all, we all, we all failed that day, and yet we succeeded in the podcast, I guess. Because to look at the idiosyncratic ways that we're like, uh... And my big one would be omitting. I'm not tell- Well, you didn't exactly ask that, so I could leave that thing out. And I'm like- Yeah ... okay, that's part of it.
LYSA:
All right, then the next one is prideful thinking, touting that we would never act like them, or that we are more mature or more healed than they are. You know, uh, sometimes I see this one emerge when, uh, people have done a lot of counseling. And then they sometimes will get an attitude, "Well, I've done more counseling than you have.
LYSA:
I'm more healed than you are." And so they almost weaponize the phrases they pick up in counseling against someone else. So we put-
JIM:
Wonderful little Pharisee there, isn't that the-
LYSA:
Mm.
JIM:
Yeah, just a little Pharisee.
LYSA:
Yep. The next one is acting self-righteous, getting puffed up in our spiritual maturity because we believe we have special access to God's thoughts that may override anything others say. In other words, we, this one is like playing the God card. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like, okay, we talk about it, we talk about it, we escalate, we escalate. Now it's chaos, chaos, chaos, and then, "Well, God told me." And I mean-
JIM:
It's the ultimate trump card.
LYSA:
It is.
JIM:
What are you gonna do with that? God told me this. I'm like, well...
LYSA:
Yeah. And so again, all of these things are areas that we all need to practice self-control in so that we don't add to the chaos and try to control the play. Again, we're not supposed to control other people. We're supposed to control ourselves. Um, the next one is making assumptions, and that is unfairly assigning to this person Motives and agendas that have become part of our narrative from past hurtful experiences with them or with people.
JOEL:
Lysa, I see your name, uh, right next to this one.
LYSA:
I know.
JOEL:
I just was curious about that.
LYSA:
Yeah, you can do the finger point at me. It's fine. Yes, exactly. Um, I think he- and I won't make an excuse for it, but I think what happens to me is I will pull from other conversations I have had in the past or other events that I've experienced in the past, and if it feels similar to a time where I was betrayed, if it feels similar to a time where I was lied to, if it feels similar to a time where someone was setting me up for failure in some way, then I start making assumptions. Oh, I see what's happening here. I see... And I assign to this person conversations we've never had events that have never happened.
LYSA:
And so I have to exercise control and really have to stop those things in my mind, like don't make assumptions. Have the conversation that needs to be had, but don't interject all these past experiences with other people onto this person, 'cause that's really unfair. And again, it will add to the chaos of a situation.
LYSA:
So when we talk about all of these things, I wanna make sure that I'm giving space for you as the listener to participate in the conversation. So if you relate to any of these, we've got two more to go, but I'd love for you to jump into the comments and i-i-admit how much ever you wanna admit or acknowledge that you relate to something, um, because we don't wanna leave you out of the conversation.
LYSA:
Okay, here's the next one. Jumping to conclusions. My name is also beside that one Because I sometimes want to take something all the way. I play it out, and it almost happens instantaneously in my brain. It's a gift until it is not a gift.
JIM:
Yeah, that's good.
LYSA:
And so me trying to play something out, often I'll go to a worst-case scenario so that I can brace myself in case that's where something is going.
LYSA:
And the definition I put for this one is mentally going to worst-case scenarios before hearing this person out or giving them a chance to make it right. . There's a big difference between someone making a mistake and someone having a detrimental worst-case scenario pattern in their life.
JOEL:
That's right.
LYSA:
Do detrimental worst-case scenario patterns happen? Yes, they do, but not every time.
JOEL:
That's right.
LYSA:
Not every time.
JIM:
I'd like just to put a mark by hearing them out. That's one I really relate to, because I will jump to a conclusion. And one of the things Jessica, my wife's really tried to help me with faithfully, is you're not listening, and to sit there at that moment. Remember, listen and silent have the exact same letters. Just scrambled. . So the idea of a thank you for remi- ... I don't feel that in the moment, but later I'll circle back and go, "Thank you for reminding me that I'm jumping to a conclusion." And often I'm ... Even if my brain's taken off autonomically-
JIM:
I'm not listening. Sometimes I have to choose, like, "Jimbo, don't say that. Breathe." Literally, self-regulation. Just listen. One of the little keys that will help you with that, help all of us with that, is to mirror. Take a breath, make sure there's a pause, a rest, and then say, "Is this what I hear you saying?"
JIM:
That is an effective tool that can slow us down to have us respond and not react.
JOEL:
So good.
LYSA:
Yeah. And I think that will help us to not think, be thinking of our response so much so that we stop listening. They say. one trigger word, and we start thinking-
JOEL:
We're gone
LYSA:
... of the comeback. And we haven't listened to everything else, because our brain is so focused on, "This is what I'm gonna say. This is what will prove my point. This is how I will cut to the, the real issue here." You know? And so I think that's really important. The last one is reacting before thinking.
JOEL:
That's me.
LYSA:
Allowing the rush of emotions to take over and dictate what we do and say in that rush of emotions before allowing ourselves a chance to calm down and logically respond. And I'm so thankful that you admitted this because that's a hard one to admit. It really is, reacting before thinking, and honestly, I think all of us do that. . I think there are... There... Reacting before thinking, I think there are hints of it in every single one of these things.
LYSA:
So you were the only one brave enough to raise your hand with this one, so I applaud you for that. Yeah, I mean- But honestly, we're all guilty of it.
JOEL:
Yeah, I think for me, the reacting before thinking also is, like, there are these little certain pet peeves almost, like certain things that they will just take, like, send me AWOL, you know? Um, it's not everything, 'cause most of the times I'm actually a detacher or avoider, you know? Um, but certain things that will just almost automatically get me... And it, it's almost an out-of-body experience. I don't know if you guys have ever had that, where you're, like, almost watching yourself-
JIM:
Zero’d out.
JOEL:
like lose it. And, like, you're reacting or doing something and you're like, "What is wrong with you?" . "Why are you, why are you doing... You don't need to do that." And yet that is the, the automated, like, system of, of my body, and so, um, it's frustrating. But what's really important for me is to assess what are those triggers that cause that, and then before those things happen, almost pre-train myself to say, "If this happens, I'm not gonna do this. I'm gonna tr- I'm gonna train myself to do this," you know? Um-
LYSA:
And that's that act of self-control that we're talking about. Instead of focusing so much on controlling others, is to really work on controlling ourselves.
LYSA:
Jim, I've heard you say before, and I found this so fascinating, that sometimes we react in ways that it, it is very, um, much not in keeping with the age that we are right now. . And I remember one time you said to me, often we can chase it down, and there we become the age of some unhealed trauma that we experienced. So, you know, we become like a four-year-old. We become like a six-year-old or like a teenager again because there's some unhealed trauma. Talk about that a little bit.
JIM:
Yeah, the, uh... We've used the words biblically, of course, um, self-control, and I just believe that if we're wanna- going to really practice self-control, self-awareness has to precede that.
JIM:
So what can go, when you think of human growth and development, uh, if you're really bored, or ChatGPT, Piaget, Kohlberg, Erickson, the theorists who studied human growth and development. Anyone took psychology course in college, you know these, you went through those names. So developmentally, there are stages to complete, I won't take you through them, from birth go up to adulthood, rem- reminding us the prefrontal cortex of our brain doesn't even fully form till about tw- age 25.
JIM:
Now we have a thing called adultolescence, that now getting probably to about age 30 with a lot of the kids out there today, hitting adult... They, they're literally very developmentally delayed. So in that, I'll say to a person as they're doing some event, they've talked about something that went on, like a reaction, how old… Just, just pause for a second. How old did you feel when this event happened? A fight with your spouse, something at work, something anywhere, even in traffic. Anything. And often they'll say, "Well, let me think about it. You know, I'll, uh..." Four, seven. And I'll say, "What might have happened to you that was impactful at age four or seven?"
JIM:
And almost every time they'll say, "Well, now that you mention it." They'll go back, and what can be a developmental, you're not trapped there, a developmental delay and a stuckness there, is to take that part of us and to continue to grow that part of us up. But you have to have the self-awareness because it's like most of us here, children, children and grandchildren.
JIM:
When I have seven grandchildren, if one of them, which happens a lot, if they react or do something, you get pinched, they pinch someone back, or they're doing whatever else. I didn't need to go to Dallas Theological Seminary, which I did, to study hamartiology, the doctrine of sin, and anthropology, literally the doctrine of, of, uh, mankind and how men operate and women operate.
JIM:
I'll look, and those children and grandchildren have given me a lot of information. I'll go, "But I expect at one level them to do that." You know, when I'm the adult person, I'm like, I'll just ponder what age might you be developmentally, and almost every time they can find it out. Now, quickly, the importance of that is it's information to say, I have to continue to grow up.
JIM:
And we know the end, nearing the end or middle of, uh, ro- uh, 1 Corinthians 13. And brother, I know there's a context here, some say about prophecy and the gifts, but I love after Paul said everything he could about love, and even agape love, and love, it's used in weddings, verse 11. "See, when I was a child, of course, of course, I thought like, I reasoned like, I acted like a child. But when I became an adult," not the therapist, not the pastor, not the friend. I put away childish things. I borrow the context there and realize a lot of the growing up, the number one thing people say, "What do you do in therapy?" Helping people grow up. I mean, I guarantee that is the number one thing. I'm not making them grow up, but I'm help
JIM:
I can watch them developmentally, and I'll go, "They literally are getting older and older."
JOEL:
And isn't that... I mean, that's essentially what sanctification is.
JIM:
Oh, totally.
JOEL:
Like theologically, that's exactly what sanctification is. . Um, and then, you know, you have the, there's a famous saying, I don't even know who said it anymore, but, um, you can get the people out of Egypt, much harder to get Egypt out of them
JIM:
Out of the people. Yeah.
JOEL:
You know? And so you've got the wilderness wandering, and you've got, um, all of the Ten Commandments. You've got all of this, which was to remind the people of who they were, you know, uh, in God. And so, like, the stories that you tell or the place that you get stuck in, whether it's for a teenager or whatever was that kind of traumatic event, um, that has you living in almost a chaos of your own making, that has to be walked through and addressed and assessed that you can-
JIM:
Amen
JOEL:
get into the beauty that God has for you in the future.
LYSA:
Thank you so much. Well, guys, this has been a fascinating and very personal -
JOEL:
Once again
LYSA:
... episode.
JOEL:
Three out of three.
LYSA:
Here are some thoughts that I wanna leave you with. . I know that all we've been talking about in these three episodes on control, I know it's deeply personal.
LYSA:
I know that there are complications and nuances in the situations that you're facing right now. Give yourself a lot of grace. And when we're giving this information, it is not at all because we have perfected it. It's because we're on this journey with you. So my prayer for you today is that there's something that will help you, like Jim said, become a little more self-aware and continue in your maturing process, and that's my hope for Jim.
LYSA:
That's my hope for Joel. That's my hope for me as well. I love, Joel, how you tied it to the sanctification process. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is found, I think it's in Hebrews 5, where it says, "Jesus, through his suffering, learned obedience." Amen. And so, you know, Jesus in his perfect divinity was also had the need to mature in his humanity. He was sinless, but he certainly faced a lot of obstacles in his life that, you know, he too had to grow and mature in. So I know some of these situations, especially this one where we're talking about someone in your life who creates a lot of chaos, I know there's suffering that you have gone through.
LYSA:
And just recognize that that suffering is not a stop gate to you being able to grow through this and walk through this. We don't wanna go around it. We don't wanna avoid it, but we do need to go through it. And part of that is that we learn when someone else is out of control, how we can exercise self-control in the midst.
LYSA:
I hope this episode has been helpful. Thanks for joining us.
SHAE:
And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
SHAE:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministry study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/Lysa to choose a child to sponsor today.
SHAE:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, "How do you know if something bothering you warrants a conversation to have with another person? When is it okay to internally process, and when do I need to talk it out?" I'm gonna pass it off to Lysa TerKeurst to answer this question.
LYSA:
There's some wisdom in both of these options, talking it out or internally processing it on our own. Talking it out can be really, really wise sometimes because what we don't wanna have happen is contempt to be developed between us and the other person we're in the relationship with.
LYSA:
Simmering resentments…If you think that you're ... There's a chance that you could have some of those simmering resentments, um, that's a relationship killer. And so we really, really do wanna make sure that we're processing things with the other person so that we can keep a clean slate in the relationship. But there's also wisdom sometimes in internally processing it and then learning to let go.
LYSA:
Um, the wisdom there is that we don't wanna make a deal out of everything. And sometimes it's kind of like kicking an anthill. Um, if you kick an anthill and stand in the middle of it, the ants are gonna sting because that's what ants do. So what you really have to do is count the cost on both sides. You have to count the cost and figure out how can you best fight for this relationship, not fight in the relationship.
LYSA:
But what I mean by fighting for the relationship is, is this the kind of relationship and is this the kind of person that is willing to have a healthy, productive conversation? Or is this the person where you're just gonna need to draw some healthy boundaries and learn to internally process it? And only you can count that cost.
LYSA:
So ... And then even in healthy relationships, you know, there's a time to talk it out, and then there's a time to process it on our own. So I don't think there's any hard and fast rule of when you should do either of these. I think exercise wisdom, count the cost, know who you're relating with. Who is this person?
LYSA:
Are they open? Are they willing? Um, or are they tough and, um, kind of hard-headed? Um, but once you've kind of figured that out and figure out what the very best is, pray to the Lord. Ask the Lord to give you wisdom and discernment. Use that discernment and practice wisdom.