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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
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🎤 PROUD MEMBER OF THE FEMINIST PODCASTERS COLLECTIVE 🎤 http://feministpodcastcollective.com/
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.97)
Hi, Tyena. It's so funny to record a podcast with you that's not messy liberation.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02.444)
Hi!
Taina Brown she/hers (00:08.436)
It is, it is. I'm like trying to make the mental swap in my head.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:14.694)
it probably won't be that big of a swap because it's very similar, but we're just talking about something very focused this time. And in this case, it's a speech, not an essay, but it's been, you know, transcribed into basically an essay, which I will link to in the show notes called Bitch on Wheels by Sylvia Rivera, which was one of a few that you had selected as ones you'd be interested in reading, I think, and or maybe we just went through them and you chose this one.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:17.151)
I yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:26.702)
transcribe. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:42.164)
Um, maybe. I don't remember.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:42.76)
I that's right. Well, I think that's correct. And I would love to know since that I think is the case. What about this one sort of appeal to you? What was your interest in reading it?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:54.239)
Okay, so the list first of all, the list that you had, I had already read some of the, I probably, maybe I have read a third, have probably been assigned at least half in for undergrad and in grad school. So I was trying to find something that I had either been assigned but didn't get a chance to read or something that was completely new to me. And so this was one that
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00.415)
A lot of them.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:24.385)
I remember it being either assigned or supplementary material that I didn't get a chance to read, that I really wanted to read. Also, it was by Sylvia Rivera. I was going say Herrera, Rivera. And I know that she is or was, I don't know if she's still alive, was a trans activist at Stonewall.
and I wanted to just learn more about her and see what she had to say. So that's why I picked this one.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:04.37)
And your bona fides, not that you need them to be on the show because the only qualification is that I like talking to you. But you are, you do have some background in feminist studies with your collegiate level studying, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:10.435)
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (02:15.146)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have a BA in Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies and a ton of graduate level coursework in the same. So, so I was also just I was trying to like, I didn't want to like completely take out my academic mind, but I was also trying to just like, come at it from a completely new place, not solely an academic place. And so
Becky Mollenkamp (02:22.122)
for your.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:42.879)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:48.317)
That was hard to do, honestly.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:51.294)
Well, and you can put on your academic hat as much as you like. Don't worry. I will be here fully to represent the non-academic folks in the audience because I'm about to step up and say, not only had I not read this, not only had I not heard of it, I didn't even know who Sylvia Rivera was. And I'm sad to admit that. And also I think it speaks to some of what she talks about in here, frankly, but also I consider myself a 50 year old baby queer. Like I am still really
Taina Brown she/hers (02:53.717)
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (02:59.294)
Ha
Taina Brown she/hers (03:08.14)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:17.7)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (03:19.342)
new to coming into this part of my identity in a more like fully embracing sort of way in just the last few years. And so there's so much around that part of my identity I don't know. And that's one of the reasons I was really glad to have read this because it led me down. She mentions a lot of different people and groups and things in this that each one of those, I'm opening a new tab and learning a little more about this person and that event and this thing. I mean, I knew about Stonewall and I knew Marcia.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:21.439)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:43.852)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:46.122)
That's the extent of my understanding of that, right? And then there was even more to it. So for me, I was excited, but I will be the person in the room then who's like, nope, didn't know that, didn't know that. So don't worry. And this was from 2001 and she died a year later. I don't even think a full year later from, I think it was liver cancer or something like that. So she, this was shortly actually before her death. So she's been gone for 24 years, 23 years.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:49.112)
Love.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:59.896)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:07.295)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:16.09)
so it's interesting to read it knowing, cause she mentions in there, I've, I've lucky to make it to 50 and like hell I'm going to die before I'm a hundred. And sadly she died at 50. So she didn't even another full year. but anyway, yeah. So, okay. Let's start at just your like high level overview. Like what you thought of it.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:27.154)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:35.7)
thoughts.
Yeah, it was interesting. It was interesting because I think the one thing that stood out to me for sure was like you could tell how angry she was from reading it. And she says it. She says it somewhere along the, you know, somewhere in the speech. You know, she's like, I am angry and I have every right to be angry.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:54.666)
For sure. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:00.906)
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:06.213)
And that anger was coming from, one, a place of passion for justice for her community. But also at the time that she gave this speech, a lot of trans histories were being erased and were being left out of the conversation when it came to LGBTQ plus rights. so she gives a few examples of that. And so it's...
It's very clear from just the first paragraph as you're reading that she is like unhappy with how things have turned out, which I think is a fair response given her history and her experiences and also just in general, like what's happening with the trans community. And so I think it's a really relevant piece right now since like,
Becky Mollenkamp (06:05.055)
Still.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:06.418)
Yes, I mean, just trans rights in general, but then the whole legacy of Stonewall being erased because of this new administration here in the US, it's incredibly relevant. It's incredibly relevant. And it's a speech. So when you're reading a speech that has been transcribed versus something that has written, there's a different feel and vibe to it that if you're not used to it, it takes a lot to get used to. It can take you a minute to adjust.
your expectations and so that I kept having to remind myself, this is a speech, this is a speech, this is a speech, you know, because it can feel incoherent at times when you're reading it. Mm hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:45.566)
Yeah, a little meandering a little like, yeah, and all those are some of the speeches a little more like casual like you would do when you're talking, you know, for instance, if I'm transcribing something and then turning this into a blog, I would probably take out all of our likes in our you know, you know, and things like that. They stay in for this, which I there's a part of me that likes it too, because it you know, they use the use because she uses use, which would normally probably get taken out and just be you or all of you or whatever.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:52.829)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:00.243)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:08.691)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:13.023)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:14.228)
But I like that that sort of vernacular and that like, gives you more of a feeling of who she was, I feel like. Which I do appreciate it, but you're right, it does take a little, like, it is a little jarring, think.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:18.984)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And that's a very New York thing to say use, know, like, use guys or use over there. And so it, like you said, it gives you a really good feel for who she is as a person and like her cadence, you know, like what her cadence might've been like if you were having a conversation with her and what.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:26.11)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:46.282)
kind of energy she brings to the room and to a conversation. So I really appreciated that. What did you think? High level thoughts.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:49.268)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:53.96)
Well, I really loved it. But again, I was going in with very little knowledge. I no idea who she was, really, other than I. So I was searching. wanted to make sure the season included something from a trans activist in the lineup of the essays or things that we're reading. And so originally, I started searching for Marsha P. Johnson. And what can I find? And I really didn't find anything that she had written, any essays or anything, because, again, I'm sticking with publicly available things that I want the audience to be able to read these without having to buy a book every time. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15.273)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:22.09)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:22.794)
So I had a hard time and then as I'm searching for like trans activists and important essays and things, this came up and I was like, that's interesting. Don't know who she is, but I'm excited to read it. Let's read it. So then I, you know, only in reading this that I find out she was involved in Stonewall. And so like this, for me, it was a really important read because again, I feel like I'm a baby queer who's got a lot to learn and it was so good for me to read something from her and do some of the...
additional research that that led me into, which I'll just share quickly for anyone who doesn't end up reading it, or even if you do, if you lack some of the knowledge I do. Silvia Rivera was one of the people sort of on the front line at the Stonewall riots, which happened in 1969. So this was written 30 years after that, which really were sort of marked this sort of beginning and turning point for LGBTQ rights. It was in New York City.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:56.228)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:14.442)
And it was, she talks about what happened in there in the essay. So if you read it, you'll see more of the details, but basically it's these police raids of LGBTQ bars. And at that time, for whatever reason, it just that night sort of sparked this rebellion of sorts of no, we're sick of this. We're not taking anymore quit raiding our spaces, allow us to exist. Right. And Sylvia said that she fired, she threw the second Molotov cocktail that night, which was an interesting little tale that I've
Taina Brown she/hers (09:16.183)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:43.114)
have since reading other articles. like, oh, that's a interesting little piece of folklore. Um, but she was only 17 also, which is amazing in with like a fake ID. Yeah. She said she wasn't even 18. She was 17 in with. Yeah. With a fake ID. And so Marsha P Johnson was sort of her mom. She had been like a, an adopted mama bear to her because Sylvia, learned she mentioned in here, she'd been on streets since she was 10. I learned a little more of her family didn't accept her. was
Taina Brown she/hers (09:50.68)
my god, I didn't know that.
I remember reading that, but it didn't click. It didn't click. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:07.88)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:09.93)
kicked out, she'd been on the streets since she was 10, ended up in sex work. Because that was something that happened a lot in that community where it was like, you've got to survive. Right? right. And again, nothing again, like there are also people who choose sex work because they want to, but in this case, it wasn't necessarily a choice of like, out of pride and excitement, but like out of just I have to survive. Yeah. But so Marsha P Johnson kind of took her under her wings and sort of served as like a second mom to her or really a
Taina Brown she/hers (10:18.804)
And that's the only option, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24.594)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:31.538)
Necessity, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:38.538)
only mom, a chosen mom to her. so Marsha P. Johnson was also there the night of Stonewall riots. the trans community was really, from everything I understand, was Stonewall in particular, really at the forefront of being there saying, we're done, we're fighting, we're pushing back. And this whole essay is really about how, while they were at the forefront of this time in 1969 that led to this massive shift in how the world view the LGBTQ community, the
LGBT part of that community or especially the LG part of that community then really sort of pushed the T part of the community out of like, it was the same thing that we see amongst feminists, early feminists, right? Where the white women basically those with more power basically told those with less, wait your turn.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:14.767)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:20.05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:27.85)
And that's sort of what happened here. And I know a lot of that, but just reading that from Sylvia's perspective, especially like you said, with the anger in it and knowing this wasn't written in 1969 or 1980, but in 2000 or delivered in 2001 and that that anger remains. And what made it poignant at the time of this piece was the death of a trans woman, a trans woman of color that was getting that no one was paying attention to.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:39.784)
Yeah, this was years later.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:44.967)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:54.67)
No attention, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:56.298)
Meanwhile, Matthew Shepard got all of the, you know, all the trans folks showed up too for that. Like, yes, we're here to support our community. It felt like once again, this, trans movement saying like, hey, we're showing up for the LGBTQ community, but when it's the T part, we don't see the LGB part showing up for us. And that anger still in 2001 and then thinking, 2001 doesn't feel that long ago, but now I'm like, oh my God, it's almost 25 years ago. So that was already more than 25 years after Stonewall.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:09.703)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:13.829)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:25.706)
And now here we are almost 25 years again later.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:28.187)
and it's still the same fight.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:30.204)
And we have the Joanne Rowling of the world and all of these radical, know, feminists, quote unquote feminists who are still saying the same things that have we not learned 25, 50 years later? And no, in a lot of ways we haven't. that's like that it is very sad, I think in that way.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:37.176)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:44.944)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:49.575)
It is, it is. think, you know, something that stood out to me reading the piece, there were a couple things or three main things, right, that have just kind of stuck with me that I've been chewing on. And so the first is she says that usually when there were raids, the people would leave the Stonewall Inn and then go somewhere else and we just waited out. And then they'd come back like maybe 15, 20 minutes later.
because the cops were there, one, to just disrupt, but also to get their payout, right? Like they were getting paid off by these places that were creating space for people. And that night, most of the people, if not all the people, decided not to go somewhere else, not to go to a coffee shop, not to go to another bar. Like they just decided to just wait.
and witness what the cops were doing as opposed to just letting it happen and not really seeing what was going on. The second thing was that there was some malicious compliance that happened. Like she says, they started throwing their coins at the police officers because they knew. Yeah, yeah, because the cops were there to collect money.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:07.988)
Yeah, they said pins and then nickels and then dying.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:15.022)
in order to be like, well, if you give us money, we won't arrest anyone or we won't hurt anyone. And they're like, you want money? Here's your fucking money. And they started throwing these coins at them. And so there was that level of malicious compliance. And then the third was, and this is the first time I'd ever heard about this in regard to the Stonewall riots was that there were also, she calls them radical straight.
men and women who lived in the village at the time who joined in. so, and not to obviously not to take attention away from the trans community and just the queer community in general who were there and were a part of it. But that part gets left out usually when you talk about Stonewall or at least in what I've heard and what I remember hearing and reading about Stonewall.
And I think it's interesting that that part gets left out because it's such a great example of solidarity that I don't know if it gets left out for fear of centering straightness, which I think is a fair fear to have. But then what's the cost of leaving that part out of the story? Right. You lose that that sense of solidarity that
comes across when you read something like Bitch on Wheels where it was like, she was proud of the fact. Like you could tell that she was proud of the fact that these like straight people who lived in the village came out and like just joined arms with them basically to participate in these riots. And so she was angry, right? That like she was still having to fight for trans rights and for trans visibility, but
She didn't deny that part of the story. I think storytelling, accurate storytelling, right, is such an important part of making sure that people understand what their role is in any kind of fight. And so those were the main three things that just really, really resonated with me after reading that.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:36.976)
like to mention that last one because I hadn't thought of it specifically. Like I noticed it as well, but I didn't think about it. Now I'm looking at like, it wasn't even just sort of an in passing. It feels like she specifically is calling out this because she said, but we also have to remember one thing. Like that's really calling that out. It was not a community in the street Queens that escalated this riot. It was also the help of the many radical straight men and women that lived in the village at the time that knew the struggle of the gay and trans communities. And I think it's
Taina Brown she/hers (16:54.937)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:06.73)
That to me says, you're right. This is important to know. Let's talk about solidarity. And I think the reason for that too is because this speech is a call to solidarity. It is that call to say, wait a minute. We had, don't forget that this started in 1969 because of that solidarity, because the trans and the gay community both were saying this has to stop. And because we had all these other folks who just were saying, we want to be those allies. We understand the struggle and we're here to support it.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:18.336)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:36.34)
that that was happening. And now here we are in 2001 at the time of the speech saying, here we are again. We're creating our factions. We're siloing ourselves off. We're not showing that solidarity. We're back to this like, you get yours when we say you do sort of thing. Yeah, I love that you pointed that out because I didn't notice that. I mean, again, I registered, but it wasn't like a, wow, look at this way that there's this call to arms in a way here. this stop making this moment or any moment about one
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41.752)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:50.22)
yeah yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (17:59.448)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06.398)
group, we need to have the solidarity because that's where the change happens, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (18:10.176)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's also important to note things like that because it's people who have straight privilege putting their visibility and their bodies on the line for people who are dealing with more marginalization than they are, right? And so it's this act of being a co-conspirator. And it makes me think of like,
how sometimes Black Lives Matter protests or things, how there is sometimes an intentional group of white people who put themselves on the line in front of Black people in order to protect them, right? And we need to see more of that, whether it's in a Black Lives Matter protest, whether it's in an LGBTQ plus protest or march or whatever, like we need to see people.
who have the privilege that that specific marginalized group at that specific point in time doesn't have, put themselves on the line. Like there needs to be a risk that needs to be taken in order to act out that solidarity. Like you can't just say you're living in solidarity without putting something on the line. And I think she's drawing attention to that. She's being super intentional about letting people know, look, they put something on the line for us.
and we appreciate it. And now as we move forward, even though it's been 20 something years later, like what are we all putting on the line for solidarity? What are we all putting on the line to make sure that we all have the right to live and to thrive the way that we want to be able to see our lives pan out?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:01.202)
And it's funny because I hear from people, white folks in particular, where it is this, you want the people who want to do better. So I'm talking about a specific type of white person, right? Not all white people. And there's often this fear that happens as white folks begin to learn more about all of these issues. And they learn things like white saviorism and in centering of your own experience inside of someone else's experience. And some of these things where they then become some of these fears of doing it wrong. Right. And like that idea of
Taina Brown she/hers (20:11.809)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:29.197)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:31.354)
is me, I've heard this example from people, like if I see somebody, a server treating a black person really poorly at a restaurant, right? Do I step in and say something because I know like it's a white person serving this black person, I'm a white person that that skin, that, you my privilege comes into that by sharing that privilege with that person that I have that ability to intercede and perhaps say that what you're doing isn't okay, right? So like there's that option.
But then there are people who will say, if I do that, does that then look like I'm either trying to be a white savior? Does it look like I'm centering myself in this whole experience, whatever? And, you know, when I understand that is a real thing that we have to grapple with. When is that? When are we to use our privilege? How do we use our privilege? How do we do that in a way that is careful to not fall into some of those other things? But I would also say, like, make the mistake.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:06.435)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:11.628)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:20.149)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (21:25.417)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (21:26.024)
think it's better to err on the side of overstepping than not, right? Because I think that that fear keeps people out of the fight, as in like, maybe it's not my fight to have, maybe that's not the way I should be fighting, I shouldn't engage in this way, all of that. So then they take that step back and don't. I would rather that you, and I'd love to hear what you think, but I would say I'd rather see you step in and maybe muck it up a bit and maybe not do it perfectly and maybe you were...
Taina Brown she/hers (21:30.602)
And not to do anything at all, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:52.702)
things were a little off, your intentions weren't exactly perfect, whatever, and have to ask for forgiveness, then to have not done it and have to ask for forgiveness.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:53.612)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:58.752)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with you there. I'll take it one step further because this is something that I've been asked as a DEI facilitator sometimes when I'm doing a workshop. You know, people who are sometimes not of a marginalized group or if it's like a Black History Month workshop, they might, it might be a white person or a Latino person of like, how do we?
Like if we see something happening, how do we? Because I always tell people, disrupt the moment, right? Like the point is to disrupt the moment so that the person making the offense knows that their behavior is not okay. And so they're like, how do you do that? Like, how do you actually do that? And the one thing that I always tell people is like, ask the person who's being offended, like,
do they need anything, right? So like, let's say you and me were out and we were at a restaurant and there was a server who was, you know, being like rude to me or whatever because of my skin color or whatever. Like in that moment, right? Preferably with the server presence so they can see what's happening and feel ashamed for their behavior, right? Like the...
I won't say the appropriate way, but one way to disrupt is for you in that moment to tell the server, can you hang on a second? Hey, this person's and then address me and say, hey, this person's being kind of rude to you. Are you okay? Do you need anything? Right? And then that takes away that feeling of, what if I center myself? Because now you're speaking directly to me and you're asking me what I need. And you're showing the server that like,
well, your behavior is not okay, and I'm gonna step in here if I need to, right? And so, then, know, and then from there, like, whatever happens happens, but I think if you are uncomfortable with that, the first step is just to do something, right? Maybe if you see it happening to someone you don't know, maybe you wait until after the server leaves and you say, hey, I noticed this interaction, are you okay, like.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:18.335)
I just wanted to come over and check on you and let you know I witnessed what happened. Because I think for people who come from or who experience marginalization, especially in the Black community and trans people, I think those are probably the two groups of people who experience the most marginalization, especially in the US.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:37.992)
I was like, I throw in the visibly disabled as well?
Taina Brown she/hers (24:41.055)
Yeah, the visibly disabled for sure. And so I think a lot of the hurt and the anger and the frustration is with like, did anybody just see what happened and nobody did anything, right? It's with that sense of like, who has seen this? Who has witnessed my struggle in this, right? And so just.
Being able to communicate, see you, I saw what happened, I witnessed it. Is there anything I can do? That goes a long way to building solidarity.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:17.748)
Well, you know, because Sylvia doesn't mention this in this piece, but it does make me think the question of those folks who showed up, those straight folks that were showing up that night. I wonder if they would if there was like a do you can we help? Can we be involved sort of moment or if it was just we see this and we're going to step in and say, here, if I either way, I think it's beautiful that it happened. And I do think like, again, I think I love what you shared and it's so helpful. So thank you. And don't let
Taina Brown she/hers (25:30.464)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:34.421)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:47.25)
not having the perfect words or the perfect thing stop you from getting involved in, you know, being part of change, whatever it looks like, you know, and that, you know, again, like I reach out to you not long ago by the time this airs, this event will be over. But for the Feminist Podcasters Collective that I run, we're going to do a pitch fest. And I wanted the first pitch fest because it was going to the timing worked out really well with Juneteenth that I was like, would it be how about having this be solely focused on having Black women have this opportunity?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:56.426)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:16.49)
to come in and get themselves in front of 35 podcasts to pitch themselves. And I love the idea. And then I had that moment of like, is that my, it okay? Like, you know, again, there's just, this in my white body that comes up of like, am I overstepping here? Is this like some sort of white saviorism thing coming out of me? Or is it what I really intended to be, which is using this platform to elevate and amplify voices that are often under recognized.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:28.199)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:43.752)
And, know, I didn't reach out to you as the like the black expert in my life, but because I know you're an expert on a lot of these issues. And so like, sometimes I just like getting that approval, but I was, I felt like my initial feeling was this feels right. And I think this is okay. But sometimes it is a little scary because you're like, this thing I think feels right. Is it going to be perceived the way I want it to be perceived and all that? And some of it is you also have to let it go and just be like, maybe it won't be. And maybe I'll step in it. And then I say, I'm sorry, but that I know in call out cancel culture, that gets scary for people.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:46.874)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (26:57.29)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:03.413)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:07.198)
yeah. yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:13.275)
It does, it does. And I think at the end of the day, like we really can't control how people perceive our intentions, right? Like we can be as clear as we want about our intentions and we should be, right? We should definitely clarity is kindness. So you should always be super clear about your intentions as much as you can. But at the end of the day, like someone...
Our biases control our perceptions most of the time, or they influence our perceptions. I won't say they control our perceptions. And so how people respond to how we behave or what we say is completely out of our control. so making a decision based on how people might respond to it, I think is not the most effective way to make decisions.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:05.098)
For sure it's not. It's grounded in all of these fears that we have, right? And it's, you do we let our fears get in the way? I'm gonna shift gears if that's okay, just a little. So I looked right at the beginning of this. She says, we're all involved in different struggles, including myself and many other transgender people. But in these struggles, in the civil rights movement, in the war movement, in the women's movement, we are still outcasts. The only reason they tolerated the transgender community in some of these movements was because we were go-
Taina Brown she/hers (28:05.855)
hahahahah
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:13.512)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:32.97)
gung-ho, we were frontliners, we didn't take no shit from nobody, we had nothing to lose. You all had rights, we had nothing to lose. I'll be the first one to step on any organizations, or any politician's toes if I have to to get the rights for my community. But it just, it's this like, the thing that we still see. So I just want to talk about it more because it's so aggravating, this like, separation of.
of who gets rights and why intersectional feminism is so important in understanding intersectional feminism. And I wonder, you you know a lot about intersectional feminism and I don't want to speak this whole time. So can you just that that piece about like you had rights, but we didn't and we kept being excluded. Like what what that how that plays in with this idea of intersectional feminism?
Taina Brown she/hers (29:02.387)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:20.428)
Yeah, I know what part of the piece you're talking about because I was thinking about that too last night when I was thinking about, you know, what I would want to talk about during this conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:26.419)
It's right at the beginning.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:41.272)
That phrase that she says, had nothing to lose. Like, just, I haven't been able to get it out of my head. And I think when you're there, you're just like, fuck it. Why not? Like, just, I'm going to go, I'm going to disrupt, I'm going to like do what needs to be done, you know? And I think obviously the more privilege you have, the more you have to lose, right? And so there's like a respectability that sometimes comes along with that.
And I think that when it comes to intersectionality, and I'm kind of all over the place here because there's just so much there, but when it comes to intersectionality, I think the main idea about intersectionality is that we do not live in silos, right? That our struggles are interconnected in ways that are seen and obvious and in ways that are not so obvious. And
It brings to mind, and I think we've talked about this on Messy Liberation, but that poem, like, first they came for such and such, and I didn't say anything, right? And then eventually they came for me and there was no one left, right? And so that's the whole point of intersectionality is that, every struggle is like a litmus test. Every struggle is a boundary, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:48.648)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:09.544)
that those who have power and are set on oppression, are set on division, are testing, they're testing these boundaries. And eventually it's going to get to everyone, right? Because we all experience power and privilege in different ways, in different contexts in our lives. And some more than others, that's a reality, some more than others.
But it's not a list of things to get through. It's not a list of issues that you check off and you're like, we dealt with this one, let's check that one off, now we're going on to the next one. That's not how the struggle for liberation works. We're all free or none of us are free because we're all interconnected and we live in so many societies that we live in.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:52.936)
Move to the next. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:08.701)
so many structures and systems that we're a part of force us into these silos, force us into living in ways that are individualistic, that are not about collectivism and collective action. And because of that,
our brains assume that it's either every man for himself or there's a process that you have to go through this process to get through liberation. And there is a process to liberation and that process really is just destroy the system.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:46.474)
Yeah, because the other option makes it sound like it's something you earn. Right? You haven't done the right steps yet. You haven't followed the process. We did. Your struggle hasn't, you haven't had, you haven't struggled as long as we have. Like there's these, and then that, what you're telling someone is you have to earn your liberation. That's not what liberation is. There should be no earning it. Yeah. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:50.264)
Right. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:06.744)
Yeah, yeah. Liberation is a human right. It's a human right. People deserve to live free lives because they are people. Not because they exist in a certain way. Not because they are respectable in certain circles. Not because... Right, right. It's the humanity of them. The dignity of their humanity.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:25.61)
because you approve of them.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:33.68)
that requires that people live free lives. And so much of what we grow up in and so much of the world that we live in is in direct opposition to that.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:47.892)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Because exactly. I mean, yes, right? Yes. And that's what she points out to in here in just like, you can feel the anger around it. I feel it. I mean, it's just, that's 25 or 30 years after Stonewall. And here she is, that was, she was 17. Here she is at 50, still dealing with, and she gives a lot of examples just with, and this is not even in the...
Taina Brown she/hers (34:03.62)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:10.051)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:13.95)
broader society. This is within the LGBTQ community. And this idea of you wait your turn. We'll get to you when we get to you. I mean, she mentioned some of the organizations. And again, as this like, you know, older baby queer, didn't know about like these organizations called Daughters of Bilitis, whatever that is, which was like the first sort of lesbian rights organization. And then the Madashine, Madachine, Madahine, whatever society, which is sort of the first gay rights organization.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:18.117)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:41.455)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:42.568)
And know, like she calls them out and says, you know, like these things were important and they excluded us. And that exclusion has continued. And guess what? 25 years almost after her death, it still continues. And when the Joanne Rowlings of the world, J.K. Rowlings of the world fight for things like she's been fighting for with this trans...
Taina Brown she/hers (34:56.302)
It still continues here.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:04.938)
trying to exclude trans folks, right? As saying that you're not a woman unless you have whatever Joanne has decided body parts you need to have. Where we lead to now, where does it go? I just wondered, has J.K. Rowling thought this through? Like the inevitable conclusion of where these things go? Because how do we determine by looking at someone if they're allowed to use this restroom? Well, guess what's starting to happen? People are in restrooms now demanding that someone
Taina Brown she/hers (35:13.049)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:34.154)
that they are a quote unquote biological woman. Does Joanne think that she's exempt from that? She may have the body parts she has determined make a woman, but what it comes down to now is do you pass the look test of a woman? Are you performing femininity well enough on that given day? And guess how many times a lot of us, we don't wear our makeup. Listen, I don't think you should ever have to, but even those who think that they would always be seen as a woman,
Taina Brown she/hers (35:48.151)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:57.552)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:02.836)
You're not wearing your makeup, you're in your sweatpants, you got to, you know, your hoodie up. There is a conceivable world where any woman, biological quote unquote woman, could be stopped and asked to prove she's a woman. This is scary, right? So like, again, that's that thing of worry that they came for me later where she's the thought process is I'm immune from this because I am, I meet what I have determined makes a woman until you are not lady.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:11.674)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:25.199)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Until you're not, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:31.412)
Well, you're not, Joanne. And your time will come too, because especially, listen, as women get older, we lose estrogen, we have more testosterone, we start to take on more, you know, traditionally biological male traits, women start to grow more facial hair, you know, they start to like, their faces start to lose all that elasticity. It becomes easier for you to be mistaken for this quote unquote man. that's the thing that just angers me, because when you're talking about we're not free till we're all free.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:46.745)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:53.316)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:59.344)
Exactly. And when you don't believe that, when you start to follow these other things down the rabbit hole of them, it gets you to the place where you start to realize, yeah, we're not free until we're all.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:09.964)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think intersectionally does a good job of having that foresight, right? Of looking ahead and saying the logical conclusion of this is that we're all in shackles. So we can't wait. We can't go like one oppressed group by oppressed group. Like we really need to like just
Becky Mollenkamp (37:16.65)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:34.338)
deconstruct this entire system and rebuild it from the ground up so that we can all participate in the rebuilding of something that is more equitable and more just, right? If you go according to how, you know, TERFs might go or according to how it usually goes where it's like, no, you got to your turn, you got to wait your turn. Like, you're not really rebuilding the system.
you're not really deconstructing and rebuilding the system. You're just placating the system, right? Because it's always going to cost you something when you go that way, as opposed to allowing the system to just be deconstructed so that everyone has a fair chance.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:16.746)
I would say you're reinforcing the system even, right? Because that idea of wait your turn is hierarchical. It's putting hierarchies on oppression, right? Waits and pressions get to be dealt with first. that's just still replicating, reinforcing the exact system that is oppressing you. And so in some ways it makes no sense, but then in many ways it makes a lot of sense. Because we are all products of these systems and it's so ingrained us that like,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:18.754)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:23.629)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:36.515)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:41.357)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:45.886)
we lack the imagination and the people with the most privilege lack the imagination the most to understand how it could be any different. And so we're just still participating in that system as we claim to be wanting to fight against it.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:58.009)
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I was like, it lacks imagination, right? Because you can't think, you have no imagination to think of what it could look like outside of the system. And whether that's out of fear or laziness or just exhaustion, which is real too, you know? it's a reality, right? That like, we're so many of us at different points.
sometimes almost all the time are so burnt out that we have no energy for imagination. And so it's really important to make sure that there's time for imagination. There's time for imagining what a better world could look like. And part of that is accepting that anger. know, like I think so many times in circles and activist circles and in organizing circles, like, or
At least a lot of what I see. I mean, I think I'm doing a pretty good job at training my algorithm now to not show me some of the love and light stuff, you know? But people are afraid of anger. They're so afraid of moving from a place of anger. And that's unhealthy. It's unhealthy. Anger, we assign moral judgment to our feelings.
And we can only assign moral judgment to our behaviors. We cannot assign moral judgment to our feelings. But because we grow up in a society that tells us that we should be polite and we should be nice, right? Especially women and people who do suffer marginalization are told, be angry because they're not gonna hear what you have to say or they're not gonna take you seriously. You're gonna come across the wrong way. And it's like, no, fuck that.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:40.69)
I want to get seriously exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:48.035)
Feelings are valid, feelings are data, feelings are information. And how you process those feelings matters, obviously, how you act on those feelings matter, but you can't take action, can't process those feelings unless you acknowledge them first. And so it's important to acknowledge that anger, to let the anger be there and then decide what are you gonna do with that anger?
Becky Mollenkamp (41:18.09)
It's so, love that you're bringing that up, but it is so important. And one of the reasons I really loved, what I loved about this speech was that it was angry, right? And it is a little jarring at first because, know, lot of the things I've been reading, is, there are these undercurrents of anger and you know, there is like rage behind it, but it's still because I think it's the written word and it's somebody's really thought about it they want to get it published, which is a whole other, right? Playing the game and stuff that there is that, um,
Taina Brown she/hers (41:25.804)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:40.566)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:46.846)
the rewriting of it to make it feel more palatable, right? So that they come across a way that again, that they could be taken more seriously. And this, think because it's a speech in the moment of where it's happening at a Pride March and within this community and speaking to the community, about the community, like it's just very raw. And I think that is so important because you're right, the anger, like women, I mean, just think of all the tropes, like feminazis, right? The angry black woman, the shrill,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:12.052)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the man hating feminists.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:16.456)
Yeah, right? Shrill, harpy women, and they're yelling and they're complaining and they're bitching and all, like, these things have been used against us to quiet us so that we don't show up in this way because stuff happens when we're angry, right? That night at Stonewall, they were angry, you know, as you mentioned too, like it was a hot muggy night. They were all cranky and that crankiness led to this anger and the anger changed things and anger is important. And it makes me think of something else I wanted to make sure we talk about.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:27.96)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44.49)
since we're talking about the trans experience a bit with this piece is suicide. And I should make sure I try to remember to include a little trigger warning about the fact that we're gonna talk a little bit about it because the suicide rates amongst the trans community are exponentially higher than in the average quote unquote community. If you take the norm of all people, it is much higher in the trans community. And in 2024, the Trevor Project,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:03.927)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:12.372)
put out a piece saying that the anti-trans laws, and that was still, that was almost a year ago that this report came out, and it's only gotten worse since, had made the suicide attempt rate amongst trans youth and non-binary youth, we're also included in this, up 72%. And it was already at a wildly high rate of something like 40 % of all trans folks attempt suicide. And Marsha P. Johnson, there's controversy around her death, but,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:28.043)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:32.992)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:37.291)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:41.578)
some and it was ruled suicide, whether or not it was is still up for debate. I mean, this is Sylvia Rivera was an exception, right? And the fact that she lived not a long life, but a long life by trans standards, you know, and if in when and the reason I'm putting that with anger is because so often when you are told you can't express your anger, you can't be mad at the stuff that's happening to you.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:51.47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:05.758)
that gets internalized and it has to go somewhere. And it often turns into self-hatred, self-anger. And that will often then result in this, and a feeling of hopelessness, helplessness, where suicide attempts come from. So I think we have to have space for anger. We have to embrace anger. And we can't allow when someone else's, especially those of us who have, are in this fight, right? Or have marginalized identities. We can't turn that on people when they show up angry. Because I see that happen where it's like, calm down.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:07.046)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15.05)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (44:31.594)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:34.218)
tone it down. Don't you want people to hear you? You're coming across that as a stereotype. There was a mention this that I'm going to stop in a second, but this piece also led me to learning about Randy Wick. No, not Randy Wicker. Who was it? Hold on a second. It was one of the people she mentioned in this article. there it is. Lee Brewster, who was a drag pioneer. And it's interesting because I read an article from this last year about Lee.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:34.463)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:03.274)
Brewster that said that the person use he, him pronouns. But Sylvia call use she pronouns with with Lee and Lee's no longer here. So I don't know the truth. So I'm going to use they. But they had they mentioned a quote in a speech that they gave that said something like I'm a stereotype, but I'm still here. And I was like, yeah, it's that like, we we let people feel like they can't be the stereotype, right? Don't be the stereotype of what they expect.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:04.15)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:33.396)
Fuck it. If I'm angry, I'm going to be angry. I don't care if that makes me look like the man hating, you know, feminist, whatever. Like, I'm fucking angry and I should be allowed to be angry. And if I'm, and if you try to stop that in me, because you're worried about what does to you, to the movement or to you or anything else, you gotta remember what it does to me.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:35.095)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:38.536)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:50.622)
Yeah, yeah. Like how fragile is a movement if somebody's anger can destroy it? Like really? Because I'm angry? It's gonna like ruin things? First of all things are already fucking ruined.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:56.254)
Yeah. That's true too. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:05.558)
Like, what the hell? And I think, you know, for a community like the trans community where visibility is such a big deal, like not only would we be saying you can't show up as yourself, but now you can't even feel the way that you feel. Now your feelings can't be visible either. Like, what?
How much damage? We know how much damage, right? By those statistics, right? By policies and laws and hate crimes and things like that that happen. There's so much damage that happens there when you tell someone you can't live your authentic life and you can't feel your authentic feelings. What the fuck kind of life is that?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:37.31)
Right, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:55.722)
It's not a great one, And no wonder, right? No wonder those suicide attempts are so high, because that does feel helpless and hopeless. You know, and I know we're both not trans folks talking about this issue. And part of that's by design because I didn't want to ask a trans person on to, you know, right to do the labor, to speak for an entire community. And also because this is, there's trauma in this.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:04.021)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:12.969)
Mm-hmm to do this labor. Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (47:22.314)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:22.474)
And I don't want ask somebody to have to put their trauma on display because this is hard. Like when we talk about these things, I feel that, like I feel it for Sylvia. I feel it for these folks in the community. yeah, you know, it's interesting too. This again, Stonewall was 69. So we're talking 50 years, more than 50? I don't know. My math is so bad, but a long time ago, more than 50, 55 years ago. Yeah, like 55 years ago.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:46.777)
More than 50, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:50.858)
And that is just that was a moment. It's not as if trans folks were new then they'd been around. mean trans folks have been around since humans have been around, right? That was a moment where the visibility started to change and the understanding started to change and the fight started to change. And that was 50 years ago. And there are people, these old folks, and this is where sometimes I get mad with old folks who are like, well, I just don't these pronouns and the trans thing, like it's all new and I can't get it. And I'm like,
Taina Brown she/hers (47:57.535)
Forever. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:17.172)
then you haven't been, you weren't paying attention because it was around when you were young. It was around when you were fighting against the war. When you were the hippie fighting for, when you were quote unquote burning your bras. I know people didn't really, but like when you were out there fighting for women's rights, like these issues are not new. They've been around and you now claiming it's new and that's why you can't get your old brain around it kind of pisses me off because it's like, no, it was your privilege then and it's your privilege now.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:18.963)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:31.946)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:38.835)
Yeah, it's a privilege indicator. Yeah, it's a privilege indicator when people say that because it's like, you've just been in a bubble for your whole life. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:49.288)
Yeah, you've chosen one. Well, or maybe you didn't actively choose, but there was something that allowed you to not know. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:54.741)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And so it's just like, it's the, we learn new things every day. We learn how to work new remote controls when we get a new TV. We learn new apps on our phones. We, AI, we read new books, right? Like it's not that fucking hard. It's not that fucking hard. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:03.345)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:11.271)
AI.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:16.618)
even have to be technology, right? Yeah. You'll watch Jeopardy. These same old folks love to watch Jeopardy so they can learn something new, but God forbid they should learn to understand pronouns or, you know, whatever. Yeah, I don't know. That was another thing that I just was thinking about as I was reading this. I'm like, it's interesting because I know I hear that refrain from people, this idea. And I think it's because trans visibility to the extent that it is now does feel new and that it's, I think it is more
Taina Brown she/hers (49:23.796)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:44.688)
omnipresent in a way like, and it's also because the right has glommed on to this like, piece of hatred. And they're like, adding all of this visibility in a bad way. But like, I do feel like this visibility is probably greater than it's ever been. But that doesn't mean it's new issue. Yeah. Exactly. Mm hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:46.035)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:49.874)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:59.637)
yeah, thanks to the internet. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's new, right? We just have more access to see things and to information. And so it might feel new, but it's not. Trans lives have been around since the beginning of time.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:11.274)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:15.4)
Yeah, and the other thing is, do you have to understand it in order to accept it? Exactly. That's... Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:18.821)
You don't have to understand everything 100 % to say, know what, I don't really get this and I'm my own journey to understanding it, but I can accept it.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:34.11)
I can accept at minimum the humanity of these humans. That feels like such a low lift to me and it's amazing what a hard lift it seems to be for some people. To just be able to say, see you as a human.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:37.415)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:43.835)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. To take the position that you have to understand it in order to accept it is centering yourself, right? It's centering yourself, it's centering your feelings, it's centering your privilege and your comfort. It becomes about you and not about the other person. And it's an incredibly selfish point of view to take.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:56.266)
Wow.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:00.426)
your comfort.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:09.322)
Yeah, that's so, thank you for that. That's so valuable, right? When people, when you're not sure, are you centering yourself? That is a great example of it. I know we're coming up on the end of our time. Do you feel like this, who should read this? Did you like it? Who should read it?
Taina Brown she/hers (51:16.06)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:25.395)
I think everybody should read it. I think everybody should. It made me uncomfortable reading it.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:30.282)
Well, in what ways? I'm just curious. Like what made you uncomfortable? Because I wouldn't have thought that, just knowing what I know about you and how amazing you are. I didn't even know that.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:33.804)
yeah.
Yeah, I I wasn't uncomfortable because of a trans, because it was from a trans person. I was uncomfortable because it felt incoherent at times. And so like the part of my brain that's like, my God, get to the point was like, at attention. And I kept having to like tell myself like, just read and learn something, Ty. Like stop being in your feelings about this. Like it's okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:42.873)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:49.555)
just the right eye.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:02.569)
Hahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (52:06.747)
it's okay for someone to show up like this in the world, you know? And so from that angle, it made me a little bit uncomfortable, but I think this is something that everybody should read because one, I think most times when people talk about Stonewall, they do talk about Marsha P. Johnson and not to discount, right? Not to take away from that. But there are more people involved, right? And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (52:26.25)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:33.576)
It was lots of people, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:35.355)
It was lots of people, lots of people. And I think to solely focus on the one person, like it's the equivalent of saying MLK Jr. was the whole of the civil rights movement when that's not the case, right? Like we do this thing, right? Right. We do this thing where we have to have this one hero, right? That we can put on a pedestal to say this was the person who like did the thing. And that person may have done a lot of things, but
Becky Mollenkamp (52:47.516)
And yet, too many white people it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:05.006)
it feeds into that siloed toxic individualism that we live in every day, that that's the water that we swim in. And so it's important to read the stories and the perspectives of other people who were involved in these struggles to understand the collective momentum that was behind the Stonewall riots. And so I think this is something everybody should read to just.
learn more, especially today because they took the plaque off the Stonewall Inn.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:40.008)
I
So upsetting. There's so much of this, like exactly the history being erased. And yeah, it's 50 years later. And where are we? 55 years after Stonewall. I also would recommend people read this piece about Lee Brewster, all linked in the show notes, just because I think it's exactly that, you know, like with every movement, we know certain voices and it's important to think about whose voices are being left out and why. Right. And Sylvia is, you know, in the case of Marsha P. Johnson, I mean, she was a black woman. So
Taina Brown she/hers (53:51.238)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:05.542)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:12.68)
That is, it's amazing. But Sylvia represents another viewpoint, right? I mean, she's also, I believe she was a Hispanic woman. I'm trying to remember where she was, Puerto Rican and Venezuelan. And again, she has that experience of being somebody who was put forced into really sex work. Again, not to shame sex work, but in this case was not the sex work she wanted to be doing.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:16.816)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (54:36.788)
She was younger than Marsha P. Johnson and lived longer and was really involved in a lot of other things, especially around that murder of Amanda Milan, which was not a murder I knew about. And reading about that was really interesting and understanding, you know, that this, that was in 2000, right? Where people, no one really cared.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:44.664)
Me either.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:54.811)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:54.942)
But amongst the trans community, really mobilized a lot of folks to get really involved and actually reinvigorated Sylvia Rivera back into sort of being really involved after having to take a break for herself because of all of the attention. like, it's just interesting learning. I think it's so important to learn about more voices, not fewer. And so I'm with you. I think everyone should read it. And honestly, the funny part is the speech patterns didn't bother me, but I did find myself feeling really sad and just a piece of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (55:07.667)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:12.656)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:22.554)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:25.578)
how little movement it feels like there's been. In some ways, there's been a lot. I do think there is more acceptance, not that I hate that word, what's the right word, but more folks who are able to understand and yeah, acceptance of the trans experience. Not that it needs to be accepted, but that is happening more. think there's more understanding of the trans experience. I think there has been progress and in so many ways, nothing has changed. so.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:27.323)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:42.712)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:52.625)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:53.284)
was sad for me, but I did really, really love it. And I think in particular, I loved how angry it was.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:59.247)
Yeah, very angry, very angry. And it's a short read, you know? You can read it in like 10, 15 minutes. Like, it'll sit with you for a while after you read it if you do a good job reading it, you know? But yeah, I think everybody should read it.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:02.814)
Yeah, well, it's really short.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:12.073)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:16.038)
I'll tell you this quote, just because I thought it was really good to talk about Randy wicker, who was an early gay male activist part of that organization I mentioned remind me a lot of JK Rowling in that in the beginning was very trans exclusionary apparently later came around. Yay, I guess but also and it said it took him a lot of years to wake up and realize that we are no different than anybody else that we bleed that we cry that we suffer. And that is that reminder.
It doesn't, you don't have to accept something. You don't have to understand something. All you have to know is that another human is a human. That is all that it should take for us. And all of these issues that we talk about on this show, going back to the first episode was about abolition and prisons. like, you don't get, it doesn't matter whether you understand, whether you approve, whether you think morally right or wrong, all you need to know is that person inside of that cell is a human. That's it. That's all we have to understand. We all bleed and feel in the same way.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:52.935)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:08.493)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:15.05)
Thank you for discussing this one with me. I loved it. Yeah, I loved this piece. really like, I wasn't sure. Because again, it was such a random selection for me because I really didn't know anything about her. And I ended up being really glad I picked it because I'm like, I really loved it.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:16.14)
Yeah, thanks for asking me.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:30.19)
Yeah, yeah, and I love the quote that you have on your little quote board. I don't kiss nobody's ass. I love that about her.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:35.66)
Yeah, again, that raw like that was I kind of love her spirit because there's just like no I'm playing like fuck it. I'm not playing the game. We tried to play the game and it didn't get us anywhere. So why am going to play the game? I'm not going play the game. Fuck the game. Game's rigged. And I love that. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:41.22)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:47.01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was done. She was done with all the bullshit. So I'm just like, yes, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:53.204)
I love that about her. She's kindred spirits. If I could always hear her around, would love to be her friend. All right, well, thank you, Taina. I appreciate you.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:01.871)
Thanks.