Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;00 - 00;00;22;16
Aaron
So we're going to talk about some NFTs today. We got we got the whole gang and pretty. You want to kick us off.
00;00;22;17 - 00;00;44;23
Pri
Yeah. And you know, we also have special guest Alejandro, who also weighed in on this broader conversation around, I guess you could say, the state of NFTs in like May 2026 and just where we are today versus where we were, maybe, let's call it 4 or 5 years ago. And just the evolution and how people are kind of pointing in different directions.
00;00;44;23 - 00;01;05;02
Pri
And so it kind of kicked off. I had just been I wrote something that I had been thinking about for a while and wanted to sort of just like crystallize it and publish. But the core idea was really inspired by and I think people thought this was more about the people cards than it was. It really wasn't about the people cards.
00;01;05;02 - 00;01;31;06
Pri
I just found that as like a great inspiration for what I was proceeding to say, which was the people cards at node. They were like the $10 card packs that kind of ballooned in secondary on eBay. It was in physical form, and it made me just think about the fact that NFTs are sort of this different new thing, like it's it's community, network based.
00;01;31;06 - 00;02;01;12
Pri
We talked about, you know, Derek has has coined that, you know, network digital objects with zero dependencies. You have this community element. You have obviously the underlying art and the relationship with artists itself. Plus it's like online dialog. And so it feels like to some extent there has been like a push to to sort of put it in like this traditional art logic, which I thought, you know, you see this push and pull, there's also like this push to add more physicality to the digital work itself.
00;02;01;12 - 00;02;20;08
Pri
So that's kind of what I was just basically noticing and commenting on as, as the space finds its footing. Alejandro, I know you're here. You had like a really thoughtful response that I think was sort of parallel to what I was saying, but added added some interesting elements to to. So I'm happy to let you kind of chat about it.
00;02;20;08 - 00;02;27;23
Pri
And then Joanna also had a follow up. She had fortunately couldn't make it today, but we can kind of go through what she wrote as well.
00;02;27;27 - 00;03;01;02
Alejandro
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think we're all very hungry to kind of assess what are we doing here and what's happening after, you know, these 5 or 6 years of intensity and commitment and ups and downs. And I think what really caught me with, with your post was, I mean, it's here's and it was I felt an honest post about how do we see NFTs in 2026, where are we going to go?
00;03;01;05 - 00;03;35;21
Alejandro
And again, like you mentioned, it wasn't about the people cards per se. It was more of what is what is an NFT? What what are what are we doing with this collectible area in art or collectibles? What does it mean to be part of this, this eco ecosystem? And I guess the my, if you want to call it pushback was the idea of there there is an understanding of this decentralization and openness that the technology per se brings forth.
00;03;35;22 - 00;04;20;25
Alejandro
You know, there's ownership is very is legible by everybody. Distribution is networked. There's a there's an openness to accessing these objects, these digital objects. But that doesn't necessarily say that the attention is decentralized or the visibility is decentralized or the support. So it's something that I've I've battled with and there's there's levels of hype of how people have pushed on this decentralization technology and how how even the playing field it how it evens the playing field.
00;04;20;26 - 00;04;57;25
Alejandro
As someone who has been an artist first in the space, then became a promoter, a gallerist. I've, I've, I've had that sensation from all those different positions, even being a collector. And there is there are nuances to the decentralization that we've been hyping about. And, you know, I have been one of those voices because I do think that there is something absolutely magical within a thinking of oneself as an artist in the NFT space, in the in contemporary art using NFTs.
00;04;57;26 - 00;05;39;10
Alejandro
It's I mean, it's one of the most exciting things that I've encountered over 21 years of practice. So I do see that there is something there that is very special that we need to protect and, and, and keep, you know, building. But I just felt and, you know, I just felt that we needed to push a little bit more on what parts are decentralized and what parts need work that still need work and that are still very much like the traditional art world where a few of us come from and kind of, you know, bled into the NFT space, if that makes sense.
00;05;39;11 - 00;05;58;08
Derek
Maybe, maybe if I was going to jump in and thank you both for writing the piece, it's nice to see crypto art back on. The timeline and engagement that I think is is interesting and worthwhile. I think the just to, as a maybe a bystander to this whole thing, kind of like reading through and trying to understand better the arguments that are being made.
00;05;58;08 - 00;06;18;06
Derek
I think prize essay was really kind of like a, I don't know, a return to the fundamentals. It's like, hey, what's what got a bunch of us interested in crypto art originally was this idea of, you know, an internet based market that anybody could create work. And if you were interested in that work halfway across the world, you could participate in it.
00;06;18;06 - 00;06;51;03
Derek
At the earliest stages, you were really leaning on these, like broader distribution, you know, technology wins to kind of like allow both, you know, collectors to come in, artists to make work, a market to price these things in real time. That was more fair and honest because we were all working off of a transparent scoreboard. And I think the and then maybe we kind of like, lost our way over the last few years with like a little bit more, I don't know, invisible curation and institutional validation and more galleries stepping in to kind of serve a role around some of the stuff.
00;06;51;03 - 00;07;19;16
Derek
And I think priest's point was like, hey, with the trading pack cards, it's like, this is kind of a return to fundamentals. This is what makes the magic year special. And I think she was just trying to shine a light there. And I think, Alejandro, your point was not necessarily to throw the baby out with the bathwater on that idea, but to add maybe a little bit of color, which is, yes, you know, these things are what brought people interested into the space, but there are still maybe fundamental blockers that are preventing crypto art from reaching its full potential.
00;07;19;16 - 00;07;44;18
Derek
And largely it's around this idea of, you know, maybe the distribution is much more accessible and transparent and fair. But this validation, this like soft signaling around what is actually collectible is still more it's still centralized or at least more more like the traditional art world. And I think we're giving it credit for. Is that a fair summary as like as someone who's trying to grapple with both of these ideas.
00;07;44;19 - 00;07;47;06
Pri
At least somewhat. Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. There.
00;07;47;10 - 00;07;49;14
Derek
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think these are I think these.
00;07;49;14 - 00;08;14;28
Derek
Are I think these are both interesting points. I think yeah, I think my, my general view is like I think that's, that's probably right. And I guess maybe another I think maybe the just like there's a tension here. Right. Because like, you know, there's definitely a contradiction between this idea of like techno technological decentralization. But the fact that like ultimately you there are reasons why people gravitate towards certain work.
00;08;14;29 - 00;08;44;24
Derek
There are reasons why crypto punks and chrome squiggles in our blocks in early, the early photography stuff reached kind of like a collectible zenith, and it's largely because, like it was speaking to technologists who wanted to mess around with crypto and technology, and there was a segment here that it was kind of like well tailored for. It's like these early experiments were perfect, like crypto artworks for this tech native audience who was really supportive of these value props to kind of like collect around.
00;08;44;24 - 00;09;03;24
Derek
And I think the more work has started to pervade what I would call a more traditional art concepts or topics. There is like, you know, there is kind of like this tension between like, okay, well, is this segment that's here spending money and collecting really the right audience for these works? Are they do they need to be retrained?
00;09;03;24 - 00;09;29;27
Derek
Do they need to open the aperture in terms of what they're collecting, or are they just not the audience here that is the best stewards for this work? Or are they, you know, maybe not that there's I hate to use like this term because it cheapens this idea of like making art, but are they is is it not the right product market fit for the collector base that has come around and is still around spending money on the on on collecting and building art collections?
00;09;29;27 - 00;09;52;12
Derek
And I think there's there's certainly some of that. And then when you start to unpack some of those variables, you could see how to your point, Alejandro, some of like this. Let's call it like consensus picks around, you know, artworks or collections or artists start to look more centralized. I could see how one could make that argument. I don't know who to blame for that is.
00;09;52;12 - 00;10;06;14
Derek
And I don't know if to. Please point. Bringing in more art curators is the answer to that. It's just kind of a function for where we're at five years into this space. But I'll pause there. And yeah, curious to hear how you guys are grappling with this.
00;10;06;14 - 00;10;43;09
Alejandro
I have I mean, you're so clear in the way that you laid that out, Derek. Thank you. And I think I grapple with this like in this middle ground. I'm like, I definitely want more curation. But then I'm like, I want no curation at the same time because there is this there is this naivete and possibility that exists without this structure and this curation and this understanding of art as this acid that, you know, you hold long term and then, you know, that's that's been proven to some extent.
00;10;43;09 - 00;11;21;10
Alejandro
I understand how that works. And I know the mechanisms. I'm part of those mechanisms in my traditional art practice. But then I've seen what's what's happened in the NFT space and the freshness and the openness and the complete lack of structure is something that's very, very exciting. But that comes with that underlying risk of something that you were just saying, Derek, is this the right product fit for the people who are willing to collect in the way that NFTs permit collecting?
00;11;21;10 - 00;11;55;17
Alejandro
And that's where, you know, there there is that there is a very palpable push and pull, because some of us have understood that this is contemporary art. This is something that is worth collecting and supporting and making visible for the crypto space and the larger audience. But at the same time, the the percentage of people who can have that vision within the crypto space, within the the network structure of collecting is still very young.
00;11;55;17 - 00;12;22;23
Alejandro
And so in its in its native ness and it's organic way that NFTs have evolved, it has like an inherent risk of maybe it's just going to take a whole new generation of collectors to then come and understand all these games that were played and risks that were taken. But with that distance of five, ten years, they're going to understand.
00;12;22;24 - 00;12;57;29
Alejandro
Oh, this was contemporary art from the beginning. It was just that, that native ness, that networking, that speculation that comes with with the space that we inhabit. It's just not the it's not what the artwork needs in order to mature, to have that longevity that traditional art seems to. It's almost like it's a given. If you're in the traditional arts space, there's this longevity in Bude into the art and in this space because of everything else, which is also what makes it exciting.
00;12;58;01 - 00;13;15;04
Alejandro
It's, you know, all these native qualities that pre kind of presented in her text. Those are the same things that are risky for the art itself. So it's kind of it's a really difficult place to be in. But yeah that's I don't know what you guys think of that.
00;13;15;06 - 00;13;21;11
Derek
I'd be curious. I have I would love to respond to that, but I actually do want to hear from Chris and Aaron and how they're thinking about this as well.
00;13;21;14 - 00;13;23;09
Chris
You really want to hear from me? Derek.
00;13;23;10 - 00;13;23;19
Derek
Yeah.
00;13;23;20 - 00;13;24;21
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.
00;13;24;23 - 00;13;26;14
Derek
What do you got for us?
00;13;26;17 - 00;13;28;03
Aaron
Lay it on us.
00;13;28;05 - 00;13;55;19
Chris
Look, a these are all our decisions, right? Like, it's not like anyone was here before us. It's not like, you know, there was a prescribed set of rules. The community collectively formed into this structure. And you got to kind of take the good with the bad of it. Right? But at the end of the day, like, you know, eight years, nine years in, this is what the space looks like.
00;13;55;19 - 00;14;18;21
Chris
And it's if there's faults with the space, there's nobody's fault but ours for the decisions we made that put us in this position. And so that's one part of this, right then, you know, there is just the nature of what what an NFT is. And NFTs are plastic and they stay in a lot of different categories. And you constantly finding yourself asking questions like, is this art?
00;14;18;23 - 00;14;40;26
Chris
Is this a Corvette? Am I buying a piece of art for which you know, I want to like, enjoy? Or is this something so I can be like a member of the Corvette Club of Greater Waco, Texas? Because NFT function in both ways. And when you start getting confused and saying no, they're all one thing. You get into these messy things around categorization, you know?
00;14;40;27 - 00;15;00;17
Chris
And so that's part of just what goes on in my head when I hear all of this. And then, you know, another aspect of it simply is like, is the art product being put out right now even worthy of this discussion? And there's always a small, small portion of it that is as a movement. I mean, it's a little quiet right now.
00;15;00;20 - 00;15;27;18
Chris
It's not really exciting me on a personal level, even things I think that, you know, people are viewing as new or novel, you know, at the end of the day, like using transactions to program pixels. Well, we did that a while ago as well. And all of a sudden we now have this new superpower, which you should be able to scale marrying data to pixels by, you know, a thousand x, yet it's not being represented in the work being put out right now.
00;15;27;19 - 00;15;47;23
Chris
Everyone's like, you know, very content to put out lo fi fuzzy pixels or, you know, distress net art like rehashes. And then they want to have all these discussions around this stuff. And it's like, what is actually worth discussing right now? And so, you know, that's just my big picture, general thoughts about this whole thing.
00;15;47;24 - 00;16;09;29
Pri
Well, that actually relates to my you guys were talking about like product market fit, I guess, or whatever audience fit around what's out there. I think that's where kind of I, I maybe I differ with you Alondra is I do think there actually is an audience. My thing is like I think the work hasn't been risky enough, compelling enough technologically pushing the bounds enough to make it interesting.
00;16;10;00 - 00;16;36;13
Pri
Like even I mean, this is a small example, but you had that normies php I haven't spent a ton of time there, but that there is actually product market fit around that, that that collection has actually done quite well. It's a PFG collection. It's leveraging AI agents, and it's kind of doing some fun things on chain. And it felt it has felt at least more technologically interesting and boundary pushing than, you know, other things that I've seen as of late.
00;16;36;13 - 00;17;03;07
Pri
And I think part of Chris's point, I'm not to mingle it too much, but is like I do think that there is an audience for things when things are truly compelling and interesting. I don't think that means you're like retreat and go towards like other audiences to try to convince them. I think it's actually just like we need more risk taking and boundary pushing work that is native to the medium, and it doesn't have to be or doesn't have to be collectibles.
00;17;03;07 - 00;17;23;01
Pri
We can just throw those categories away. This is another new category. We should embrace it. And like I think there's taboo around the world. Collectible. Like who cares? Like I don't think it can be anything. And so again, maybe I'm my lens is a little bit more naive. But I do think that there is an audience for truly compelling work.
00;17;23;03 - 00;17;42;03
Pri
I mean, you still see that here, even though the market is completely softened and nothing like the hype cycle. And I don't even compare the hype cycle to today, because I just don't think that was like that was an aberration. But there's still is buying around work, historically significant work and other work. So it's not like all is lost.
00;17;42;06 - 00;17;47;25
Pri
Not not to go on a ramble a bit, but I just wanted to acknowledge some of Chris's points and Alejandro's as well.
00;17;47;26 - 00;18;17;01
Derek
Yeah, I'll add maybe I'll add some color to, to to kind of like my previous view, which is to bridge all of this stuff together. I think, you know, maybe the dialog here is, is not like not like what's good or bad, but maybe the argument is like, is crypto art and the value props around crypto art actually just a very different thing than digital art, and how digital art or traditional or contemporary art is created, packaged and sold.
00;18;17;01 - 00;18;38;08
Derek
And I think this tension for me has been coming up because I'm very I think I've mentioned this on a bunch of these podcasts. Like, I'm pretty enthusiastic about the fact that we now have artists that are, you know, showing work at major art fairs, that there's real representation that's starting to happen for the artists in our space as they, you know, make work in other places.
00;18;38;08 - 00;19;00;07
Derek
I really do appreciate that. And I see that as like a sophistication of what was previously kind of like a more raw movement. I will say personally, you know, the stuff the reason why I started writing about crypto art and collecting crypto art and investing in crypto art protocols was because there was actually something very different about internet based works that I think are pretty special.
00;19;00;07 - 00;19;23;07
Derek
It's like we've touched on a bunch of them already and done a great job of kind of illuminating some of these, but it's like the fact that these invisible networks can be made visible. Now, the fact that these things are internet native, the fact that, sure, they can be physical, but there's like a often a digital component to them that you can use programmability and smart contracts, the blockchain, it's either Ethereum in some cases it's Tezos or Solana.
00;19;23;07 - 00;19;49;23
Derek
But the blockchain is like this recording format that becomes part of like the toolkit for making the work to begin with or engaging with the work. Further, the fact that there's real market structure that exists at the very beginning. And so you can use free or low cost as a way for kind of building an emergent network. You know, I think these are value props that the earliest kind of like fan favorites really clued into.
00;19;49;25 - 00;20;18;13
Derek
It's like, I mean, I basically just described why crypto punks and crummy squiggles and the contract, like why people and technologists got really excited about what was going on here or people were collecting like early super rare art. And I and I, I guess my, my larger view on this is like the more we start to walk away or go a little bit further in distance from any one of these value props, maybe it's we're walking away from all of these value props, or we're walking away from half of these value props.
00;20;18;13 - 00;20;58;17
Derek
So we're walking away from two of these value props. It for me personally, the work is just not as interesting. And it starts to look like everything else that that like like it starts to look like contemporary art being repackaged. And I would say my only issue I would say with like this idea of requiring or having, you know, I think my one small pushback to like this idea of curation or representation or, you know, major art fair showings is oftentimes what happens is these value props are turned down or turned off completely to be able to sell or repackage otherwise really interesting artists or really interesting work for an audience that just doesn't care
00;20;58;17 - 00;21;16;28
Derek
about why crypto art is special. I you know, I, I'm not saying that there isn't real artistic intent to kind of like make work that doesn't involve internet art or crypto art or blockchains or smart contracts. And artists, in my view, should be free to make whatever they want. But there has been this tendency that I don't care for around.
00;21;16;29 - 00;21;52;19
Derek
Just like quieting down these really powerful value props just so that you can spoon feed another wise digital artist to a mainstream contemporary art collector or a mainstream contemporary art fair. And that I have some problems with. And I think that has only kind of started to increase. And I would say it's just like something I've kept an eye on and I don't know how it shakes out, but I would say that if there was one piece that I'm just, like, not a fan of, it's it's that because I see that accelerating and I think it starts to dilute some of the important work that's been done here and some of the reasons why this
00;21;52;19 - 00;21;54;27
Derek
space has been so special to all of us on this call. Yeah.
00;21;54;27 - 00;22;22;14
Aaron
I think I think that's fair. Derek, just one note on that. I don't think there's any notable art on Solana. Just wanted to make sure that that was clear. For the record, I think I think the issue here is like the ecosystem is just falling back into the net art rut. And I it just didn't work right. Like, there was definitely works of art that were created that were notable, but it didn't capture the attention because it didn't have any distribution.
00;22;22;16 - 00;22;58;07
Aaron
My personal view, it's been consistent since the beginning, is just like this is a new media class, just the same way that, you know, the internet brought shorts and reels and a different kind of packaging for, you know, different audiovisual type works in Web2. I just think NFTs are kind of like a the first internet native way to to handle everything related to creative work, from financing to distribution, etc. and so like going back to like a playbook that's basically the playbook from the, you know, 20 tens.
00;22;58;08 - 00;23;21;19
Aaron
It's just it's not working. And I think it's having the same predictable consequence. Like the space is getting smaller, like it's not cutting through the noise of all the social media platforms and whatever information bubbles people are participating in. And like the raw desire for people to collect or own something is still there, right? We see that in the collectible markets just kind of exploding.
00;23;21;19 - 00;23;45;18
Aaron
And the few artists that I think still are trying to maintain that. And I think people's a great example, like they're continuing to crush, right? Like they're able to capture attention, they're able to like hit like a collector base in different ways with different formats. And they're building out like their their network and their distribution that way. And so that's just been my position for kind of a long time about like the state of the space.
00;23;45;18 - 00;24;03;07
Aaron
It just, you know, people are just retreating back to a model that just didn't work. It's kind of like trying to, you know, shove sass back into AI for lack of a better way to describe it. Like models just have changed. And I think I think the space just needs to kind of recognize that.
00;24;03;09 - 00;24;38;15
Chris
The totality of one NFTs allow for, I think both create a lot of passions and allow a wide surface area for really infuriating behavior, or it allows a wide surface area for people to project their expectations onto them. And it's a blessing and a curse, right? It's a blessing in that you got people passionate about this format, this method of interaction, the stakes around it, you know, both from a creative perspective, but also, you know, your engagement, both as a community member and the financial upside of it.
00;24;38;16 - 00;24;59;12
Chris
NFTs provide a service area that just is far more compelling and interesting than a real, you know, or like, just pick whatever you want to pick as your example. And so, yeah, like that, that like just creates this big heady stew where everyone can kind of stake a claim to what they think the right way of doing it is.
00;24;59;12 - 00;25;27;14
Chris
And then, you know, it came along, you know, we had this huge retrenchment and in that, you know, retrenchment, I think the people with the most at stake are the ones who stayed there, the ones who participated. They're the ones who shaped things. And you got to start, you know, looking at, okay, well, we've got a much smaller group of people at work here and they still all have differing interests, expectations, etc. but you know what?
00;25;27;14 - 00;25;53;29
Chris
They're the ones out here doing this. And so, you know, I feel like some forgiveness is allowed for if you're saying, you know, you are really passionate about the art and you want to support the artist, or you made a set of financial commitments in which you're tied to the success of this and you're trying to survive, and you just look at a whole audience in which you know what?
00;25;54;00 - 00;26;17;28
Chris
You can go, oh my God, like 80% of this, you know, transactional volume was really just sneaker flippers in disguise. And I got burnt by that, and I now I need to keep doing this because I care. And so, like, it's not surprising, you know, that a portion of this sort a new land, a new home, a new place to go about doing what they do and that's their right.
00;26;17;29 - 00;26;41;22
Chris
Right. So I'm a little more, I guess, forgiving around that. It certainly doesn't interest me, you know, but like just the reality of what you got to do when times are tough, you know, I'm a little more accepting and accommodating of it, you know. And then I do, you know, you have these people like Derek, like, you know, you have your old time punk holders and they they have a certain set of values.
00;26;41;22 - 00;27;02;27
Chris
They have what brought them to this face and this, you know, that wasn't you know, that wasn't oh my God, our basil is giving a platform to shit. I like, like that doesn't do much for them. And that's fair and fine as well. I don't know, I'm not sure where where I'm going with this at this point. But you know, I guess I'll come back around to like, it's a huge fucking surface area.
00;27;02;27 - 00;27;11;20
Chris
It's a wide open category. It's a bunch of people who are all too online and a little too creative and a bit in their fields, you know, like, this is where we're at.
00;27;11;20 - 00;27;36;00
Alejandro
I've been wanting to to say exactly that, Chris, and your the pushback that you gave Derek on, you know, maybe we don't want certain kind of thing happening. I would say let it all in. I mean, that was part of the tracking of the NFT space. It's like it's all, okay, you can do this, you can do that.
00;27;36;00 - 00;27;58;21
Alejandro
And sometimes and part of like my what I wrote is like, we have to be careful with what we say. This is what works like. And again, not that I don't believe in like what pre was saying about the native gestures that are like that attracted a lot of us to this. But there's more. There's like ten, there's like 2030.
00;27;58;22 - 00;28;24;16
Alejandro
I think we should because I consider you guys all like leaders in our space. We have to be careful as to, oh, I would love to see more of just this. But in that we in that we say that I think we should also explain that. Yeah, I want to see more of this, but I'm also open to this other ways because in that eclectic.
00;28;24;20 - 00;28;56;04
Alejandro
This is how we are going to grow. That's my mindset. And one of the things that I felt like in 2021, that wasn't the case. There was so much attention to one way of thinking, of the things that are successful in this space that it at least for me as an artist, it alienated me from the space. Like I felt completely unwelcome, like I came in and then it was like, oh my God, this is I don't want to be a part of this because it's all pushing to one way.
00;28;56;04 - 00;29;19;03
Alejandro
And not that that's bad, but it was. It's only that way. That's when thing things I think gets weird. And where I was pushing, that's not Descentralizado. That's like telling everybody that's the way that it needs to be. And it should be. Yes, it should be this way. This is amazing. But we're also open to these other ways, to these other possibilities.
00;29;19;03 - 00;29;47;04
Alejandro
And I think that we need to mature the conversation around that. And, and like verbally say that we are open to these other ways. And yeah, we favor these because that's where our philosophy and beliefs are. But it doesn't mean that we don't want to see other ways because we don't have the truth. We're just part of a little part of the ecosystem in other ways of using NFTs.
00;29;47;05 - 00;30;20;09
Derek
Yeah, I, I, I don't actually take any issue with that. I fully agree with that sentiment. I think the the point I was making is not this way is better than that way. The point I was making was really like, it kind of starts with the definitions. And if what you're trying to do is lean into the value properties of blockchains and credible neutrality, and it's permissionless and anybody can write or read to these, this form factor, then, you know, that is a very specific way of making work that's like to use language like native to the medium.
00;30;20;09 - 00;30;41;02
Derek
I fully acknowledge that it's not the only way to make art. There are an infinite amount of ways to make art, and there is an infinite amount of ways to to engage in a creative practice around making work. Some of it may not even be tangible to to be sold. You know, my wife was a professional dancer and her work was ephemeral.
00;30;41;02 - 00;31;07;18
Derek
It's, you know, you it's a one time show and there's nothing sellable. And at the end of the day, it's like those artists are in a place where, like, they're unable to, you know, optimize the economics of the work because there's not actually anything to sell. So I'm very familiar with, like the fact that there can be many different types of artistic practices, many different ways to monetize those practices, many different ways to kind of make work or creative, you know, creative work.
00;31;07;19 - 00;31;32;16
Derek
And we should be totally availed to all of this stuff. I think the larger structural point I was making was for for us to think that maybe the escape route for this space is to start turning the knob down on the value properties that made it interesting to begin with, just for the sole purpose of making the work more solvable for a different audience that isn't as interested.
00;31;32;17 - 00;31;59;28
Derek
That's the piece that I think we should be looking at a little bit more skeptically. And maybe the answer is like, that's just not crypto art or digital art. Maybe that's just like contemporary art. And we should be availing ourselves to a new definition of what that art is. But I, I think the thing I'm pointing out is slightly different, which is if what we're doing is just, you know, moonlighting these artistic works and these artists as like being of the crypto space.
00;31;59;28 - 00;32;17;14
Derek
But we're kind of like cutting the the legs off of all the things that made it crypto art to begin with. And, you know, I went through a list of them, the networking, the fact that these are internet native, that distribution starts from zero. You've got smart contracts or they're programable or they're even recorded on a blockchain to begin with.
00;32;17;15 - 00;32;39;01
Derek
If we're if we're kind of walking away from 1 to 5 or all of those things, then I think we might not want to just like be grouping these things together, or we might not want to be thinking about them in the same way, or we just might not I or it just it may be it may be such a different thing that classifying them as all together is just not the right exercise.
00;32;39;01 - 00;32;46;01
Derek
And I think that's, I think and I don't have an answer for this. It's more just like this is where I think some of this complexity is stemming from.
00;32;46;01 - 00;33;13;08
Pri
Maybe that is like actually the conclusion a little bit too. It's just like maybe we maybe at least I when I wrote that, I was like grouping what is probably net our digital art with NFT art and or crypto art. And maybe those are actually just like two entirely different things. The one thing that I find like perplexing or confusing is like they sometimes are overlapping because many of these digital artworks or whatever, they might have a physical piece tied to it.
00;33;13;08 - 00;33;33;16
Pri
Then they have like an NFT as well, which sometimes always feels like an afterthought to me, like it feels just like something. Maybe it's more of like a source for provenance or something like that, but it's not like the core native piece. It's kind of just something parallel to the core native piece. Anyways. I don't want to get muddled in that, but maybe.
00;33;33;16 - 00;33;52;15
Pri
Maybe you're right. Maybe it's that instead of trying, what I was trying to do with article is like, go to the core properties. That got me initially attracted to the space because it was very different. And like I, you know, again, like have friends with digital art space, digital art world and traditional art world just and it's just a very different energy out there.
00;33;52;15 - 00;34;04;15
Pri
And this one, this whole world was very, very different to me and very internet native. So I found that compelling. But maybe the right way to think about it is that it's just like a completely different world and path with a little overlap.
00;34;04;16 - 00;34;20;27
Derek
I think if you do that and there are pros and cons to that approach. So I'm not like advocating for it. But if you do that, it might make answering the question, why aren't these people buying this thing a little bit easier to understand? Right. So it's like, of course, in a perfect world, like everybody wants to buy everything.
00;34;20;27 - 00;34;45;05
Derek
Everyone wants to collect everything. Everyone wants to be a steward of everything. But if what you're doing is selling something that people inherently aren't interested in because it's not the right packaging or the right form factor, this is where it gets back to the product market fit. You're you're kind of like stuck between two worlds. You're like trying wharf this artist into something that they're really maybe not interested in exploring, just to sell the thing to a new audience.
00;34;45;07 - 00;35;12;15
Derek
You're limiting the the amount of capital or attention that could come to this thing because they're leaning into the ingredients and they're, you know, offering the product for a crypto native audience. And and I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. I'm purely noting that just these are different. These are different things. And so it makes once you start to put language to these ideas of like, we're offering a different thing to a different audience, it maybe makes this conversation a little bit more accessible.
00;35;12;16 - 00;35;44;08
Alejandro
I mean, I completely agree and I've I've had to like grow into these native ideas of, of crypto art and digital art and NFT art, if we want to call it that way. But I'd also argue that the these not so let's say these these works that are overlaying the crypto layer that, you know, as you mentioned, Eric, are not completely native.
00;35;44;09 - 00;36;21;22
Alejandro
Those are artists who are thinking this is something that works for me too. So it's not only the platforms who are bringing the these, let's say, unmade assets onto the crypto space and the NFT space. It's the artists themselves and that feel identified with either the mechanism or it's a new distribution space. That was if they don't have into that to try to tap into the traditional art space, it's going to take 15 years for them to get any sort of traction.
00;36;21;22 - 00;36;58;07
Alejandro
So there is even on the native ness of these pieces that are, you know, using just the distribution of the network to sell work. There is value in that. And if the artists are here using it in such in that way, then it's a it's a good product fit for the artist too. So I don't know. That is also some kind of native ness because it's finding people either the people are finding the NFT way of producing and selling art or or vice versa.
00;36;58;07 - 00;37;10;10
Alejandro
But there is something there. That's why it's you have a lot of these native artists using these these rails to, I don't know, just just putting something there to to think about.
00;37;10;11 - 00;37;30;20
Chris
No, it's a good point. It is worth thinking about because, look, people are hesitant to like, criticize the artists. Oh, the poor sensitive artists. We we should talk about how we as collectors have failed, right? We're a bunch of people in this space. We collect, we've been around, we're having a discussion in which we're recognizing this isn't all one and the same thing, right?
00;37;30;22 - 00;37;51;02
Chris
Like in a lot of ways, this still just is a high school in which you've got a bunch of different clicks, you've got nerds, jocks, you know, goths, stoners, etc., etc. and maybe they don't really aren't into the same things, but every once in a while, like, you know, someone says a thing and everyone in the high school is like, nah, that shit ain't right.
00;37;51;02 - 00;38;19;09
Chris
And, you know, so we often, you know, like, it's a regularly occurring feature in which some artist pops up and complains about a cabal not having acceptance and, like, stirs up a shitstorm. And, you know, like the hard truth of the matter is, the world owes you nothing. And as a creative, that's a a it's a really hard thing to hear, but be like, it's especially true, right?
00;38;19;10 - 00;38;52;01
Chris
Like, you know, when you're making creative work, when you're trying to engage another person on an emotional level, an experience level, right? Like, you shouldn't you shouldn't have an expectation that everyone is going to appreciate this, right? It's disrespectful, I think, to a potential audience to assume that whatever you've made needs to connect with them. And like that's just another part of all of this floating around is, yes, like, look, is there a lot of great work out there that deserves recognition?
00;38;52;02 - 00;39;16;21
Chris
Of course. Right. I can say that like about myself as a writer, I think I write pretty damn well and, you know, would love to have more recognition. Do I expect it? No. And like, that's just a hard reality of the space. And that's just like another little piece of this stew that you know, is out there and worthy of consideration because I think collectors or people in the space, you know, are often more willing to flog themselves.
00;39;16;22 - 00;39;35;18
Chris
Right, because it's a little easier. And, you know, you don't have to get into uncomfortable truths, but like, you know, you want your art recognized and make better art or find a better connection. I mean, like, you know, in some ways, I wasn't really excited to hop on the pod and have this conversation because there's not a lot of good work out there we're talking about right now.
00;39;35;18 - 00;39;37;22
Chris
It feels very much in stasis.
00;39;37;22 - 00;39;48;26
Aaron
I think it feels in stasis because people are not leaning into these core concepts, though. Chris. That's kind of my read. Like, it just feels like mid 20 tens.
00;39;48;28 - 00;40;08;23
Chris
Well, if you want a reaction, right. One of the strongest ways to get a reaction is through novelty is through introducing someone to a new experience. And if you're going to bring out something that you know looks broadly familiar and similar to what we saw five years ago, you're going to get a muted reaction. That's just the way the world works.
00;40;08;25 - 00;40;14;03
Aaron
Yeah, I'm saying something slightly different, which it's not. We're not even seeing what we saw five years ago. We're seeing.
00;40;14;04 - 00;40;15;28
Chris
No, no, I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with.
00;40;15;28 - 00;40;38;03
Aaron
You like ten, 15 years ago. Because, you know, if it was five years ago, you'd see people playing around with the media. And like another analogy I kind of think about, it's like there was radio, right? And then podcast came out and a bunch of folks that built long established careers in radio, like wanted to play around podcast, but it turns out that the best podcasters were just a net new class of creator, right?
00;40;38;06 - 00;40;55;10
Aaron
They had different backgrounds. They approached the format like a little bit differently. They lean heavily into like community and distribution, at least for some of them, like in finding their audience and tribe and then kind of building on top of that until they went into like broader consciousness. I just don't see the same stuff happening at this point.
00;40;55;12 - 00;41;02;27
Aaron
It just it just feels like, you know, if you were interested in digital art during an earlier era, it feels like the same thing, at least to me.
00;41;02;28 - 00;41;30;10
Chris
Well, your podcast example is interesting because in many ways it had a similar arc to what we're talking about in our space to some a much larger scale, right? Like, yes, you had a whole new voice, whole new set of voices emerge. They told interesting stories, they developed the format. And now podcasting in retrenchment and celebrity status and built in audiences and cross marketing and save bets are the name of the game.
00;41;30;10 - 00;42;05;14
Chris
And podcasting you don't like. Plenty of people are making, you know, stuff similar to cereal. You know, which kind of set the whole podcast, you know, mainstreaming off. But Travis Kelsey's wife, is going to have a bigger platform because, you know, a distribution cabal and a safe. This is envelop that space as well. And so like we're not all that different from many other similar factors, you know, are there still audiences for, you know, long, long form storytelling, podcasting, you know, true crime or whatever was these early things?
00;42;05;14 - 00;42;10;08
Chris
Yes. You know, do they get the same attention as they once did? No.
00;42;10;09 - 00;42;32;27
Aaron
And I think that that's really the the vector. It's just like it is a, you know, for better or worse, the physics of the internet require that you're able to get attention on whatever media object you're creating. And I think that that's where this model really falls flat because it's insular, right? It's trying to find like the whale collector to sell something to, which is fine, and that's how traditional art works.
00;42;32;27 - 00;42;58;25
Aaron
But it's also why traditional art is struggle to, you know, to keep up with the internet age. Right? If you look at museums right there, the attendance and is down right. If you think about like earlier classes of creators, I think there's reasonable questions now, whether or not they're going to be remembered in the sands of times, because if it's not relevant to the next generation, because it's not something that they're consuming or interacting with, it's just going to get forgotten.
00;42;58;26 - 00;43;17;10
Aaron
Like like many other, you know, creators of earlier eras. So I just think, like attention and distribution has to be at the heart of, like any new thing that you're creating at this point, not something I always enjoy, but it's just like a fact of the way the internet operates right now.
00;43;17;12 - 00;43;36;29
Pri
And as we were saying that I was actually just thinking like perhaps part of the reason there has been a little bit of like a just a soul searching is like trying to get attention in this, especially with the rise of AI and what's online like getting attention distribution. I mean, you need attention to get distribution. And and this is a little bit actually counter to the point I'm making.
00;43;36;29 - 00;43;53;13
Pri
But maybe part of that, you know, differentiating force is like we need to appeal to different sectors and be in these physical spaces and try to get attention that way so we can do distribution because it's very difficult to do that.
00;43;53;14 - 00;44;14;06
Aaron
Just I mean, think, think about why attention happened before, right? Like if you go back to that time like one, the works were priced in a very accessible way just because people didn't demand them. But that helped get distribution into the hands of people that did demand them to, you know, they were at least platform or community based in different ways.
00;44;14;07 - 00;44;34;09
Aaron
And that enabled a whole bunch of people to get excited about it and talk about it in different forums, whether that was like on Twitter or Discord, you know, or private message groups. Right? So like that, that piece is not as present today. Like the work is priced much more aggressively, which is great for the artist. Not not necessarily great for the collector community building.
00;44;34;09 - 00;44;53;18
Aaron
It was doing something that was net new at the time, which we talked about before, which now we have like a whole new set of toolkits and technology tools that we could be using, which I think some people are doing really well, but it's not like as widespread and pervasive, you know, like, why did people get all that attention on his robotic work?
00;44;53;18 - 00;45;17;13
Aaron
Well, because it's it's relevant and not that many other folks that had done that at the time. He wasn't the first person to do that. But, you know, he packaged it up in a pretty accessible way. And then I think I think third, you know, the seems like the artist base wants to just get like a number of solid, you know, like very, you know, well capitalized collectors, which is great, but it just it doesn't go beyond them at that point or a small group of people.
00;45;17;13 - 00;45;20;23
Aaron
So it just gets kind of lost in the flotsam of the internet. Yeah.
00;45;20;24 - 00;45;53;03
Alejandro
Yeah. There's, there's something like something really elegant and interesting to think about with crypto punks. I think about it a lot in terms of time. Like we're we're saying it's been, what, almost ten years, nine years since the release. I mean, that was at least three years of maturation in almost obscurity. If one wants to, you know, use a, a something to, to name that period of crypto punks.
00;45;53;03 - 00;46;46;09
Alejandro
Those three years of it was there, but it was very much for a I mean, if we are a niche that was a niche of a niche, what has happened since, you know, mid 2020 that the timeframe just disappeared. It was almost like we were in this frenzy of collecting the liquidity that was coming into the crypto space, instead of building cool projects to like, I can't remember who said, but yeah, great for the artist because they're getting paid because they're pricing more aggressively, but it's not letting things mature and, you know, become relevant because not because of hype, but because they they are cool works of art and cool projects that, you know, stay
00;46;46;09 - 00;47;26;24
Alejandro
relevant because they are cool to begin with, not because they sell out or because they hit a certain floor, blah, blah, blah. It's just this is a cool project, and it's going to take the time that it's going to take to mature. If one thinks of the example of crypto punks, but we don't have that time. And that was also something that I kind of mentioned in the article, like the one of the native ness that one of the native gestures or characteristics is speed of the NFT space, and that speed is, if we think again of the crypto product example, we we we don't need that.
00;47;26;25 - 00;47;43;14
Alejandro
We actually need time for things to mature and solidify and consolidate. But yeah, again, it's something to think about. It's a conundrum. It's amazing because it's, you know, effective and immediate. But does it really help us? I don't know.
00;47;43;15 - 00;48;09;00
Aaron
That's the time. I mean, I would argue that there has been a lot of time. Alejandro. Right. Like this entire period, people could have been seeding those communities and building out those ecosystems necessary to begin to approximate or stand in the shadow of like a punks. I just don't think that that's been the move that a lot of the creators or the platforms that are supporting those creators have always kind of leaned into.
00;48;09;01 - 00;48;34;29
Aaron
So, I mean, I the big question, it's just like there's a desire to put like human curation here, human gatekeepers back in when in reality, like the NFT market when it was working, was market based, you know, curation where price discovery happened and then certain works for reasons that sometimes were confusing. I'm sure to all of us that, you know, certain ones would stand out, they'd find like that collector base.
00;48;34;29 - 00;49;01;29
Aaron
I just don't think that that price discovery is happening. And I think that that's why it's still there. Right? Like market based curation happens in the collectible market, like all the time, right? Certain sets of cards or certain, you know, vectors of that, of that ecosystem just get more attention than others. That could be, you know, Pokemon right now or what we see in kind of with other kind of categories of either goods or or collectibles.
00;49;02;00 - 00;49;25;22
Aaron
And I think that they have that kind of right. And that's why, you know, that's bounced back and continue to grow. While I think the the NFT markets kind of shrunk, the challenge that I have is just like, unless that comes back, I just think that that shrinking is just going to continue until it until these like, hard earned lessons from the early 2020, 2021 period or just kind of rediscovered.
00;49;25;25 - 00;49;56;06
Chris
Market based coordination comes with its own set of affordances and its own pros and cons and some of that. Right. Like all right, on the good side, you have speed. You have you have networking, you have formation of consensus. And if that is working for a quality project and at the end, the end result is you can say the world wouldn't have known about crypto punks or, you know, whatever is like beloved in your heart because of market.
00;49;56;13 - 00;50;31;09
Chris
Unless, you know, market based coordination exists. Therefore market based coordination is great, right? Like sure. Now look at everything that failed because of market based coordination. Look at artists who may have created their own unique path, but instead saw the gravity, the velocity like got pulled into the undertow of market based coordination and created different works. And now that market based coordination has stalled out and there's an illiquidity around the market, and that the dynamics that pushed, you know, certain successful projects up has faded.
00;50;31;11 - 00;50;52;20
Chris
What's the downside of it? Well, the downside of it, you know, perhaps, is that like the work that exists now is stale, that people who would have been laying the groundwork to do interesting things instead chose to participate in that market based coordination and their practice, or what they would have made doesn't exist.
00;50;52;23 - 00;51;13;13
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, and I don't think that that those points, Chris, are unique to NFTs. I think the same thing is happening across digital assets. Right. It's kind of a similar retreat for real world assets and the movement to get like institutions on board and like across the ecosystem. So it's not like a it's understandable why that happens.
00;51;13;13 - 00;51;37;00
Aaron
I just don't think in the long run it's going to maximize the this, this size, scope or impact of of what you can do here. I think it's the same thing. Like if I was like a cable man working for, you know, some traditional media company and I saw like the eye watering numbers for creators like Mr. Beast, I can critique it 50,000 different ways, like the quality of the contents.
00;51;37;00 - 00;52;01;29
Aaron
Bad. It's a gimmick. But at the end of the day, like all those clicks from all those different people across the world, like propelled, you know, that format to, to the top. And I think that that's what the NFT market needs to do. It needs to carve its own path and like, lean into the advantages of what these global 24 over seven marketplaces ultimately provide, which is just broader distribution.
00;52;01;29 - 00;52;26;09
Aaron
And I do think, like the traditional art world cared about NFTs because they one knew that they didn't understand how to compete in that new world and to it just distribution. That vast distribution just has its its advantages. And I think that vast distribution plus the price discovery plus like the low cost of entry, like, made it a fun activity to, to participate in, in, like, so many different ways.
00;52;26;10 - 00;52;29;14
Aaron
And I just don't think there's that much of that kind of left.
00;52;29;15 - 00;52;33;04
Chris
Yeah. Fair enough. You know, when things work, they work. When they don't, they don't.
00;52;33;09 - 00;52;51;14
Aaron
Yeah. But you know, I think it's like a similar move like this happened in digital assets, right, where they showed some like internet native capabilities to do capital formation. Right. That was like the ICO era. The wave after that wasn't like the real world asset wave, right? It was kind of doubling down and expanding on that into like DeFi, NFTs.
00;52;51;15 - 00;53;13;13
Aaron
And so I just think the space just needs to lean back into its roots and like patterns that worked and just acknowledge that, you know, going back into what didn't work. And like, you know, the earlier era of the internet when it came to supporting creators, it's not going to work now just because we can, like, append a digital asset on it and pay for it, you know, in another digital asset, right?
00;53;13;14 - 00;53;22;25
Aaron
It's like the same playbook, but it didn't work like that era, I think didn't get the attention it deserves. But it's not it's not growing right. It's going the other way.
00;53;22;26 - 00;53;49;07
Chris
Well all right. So both things have the same problem. Right. And that problem is the bar has been raised. The expectations are higher. What came before got as far as it could go and then stalled out because it had certain fundamental failures in the world of digital assets. It's that they didn't do anything that created value. They didn't perform useful work such that they could display money like properties.
00;53;49;11 - 00;54;06;00
Chris
You could speculate all you wanted on them. But to actually do a thing to power an economy, to do useful things, that's where it failed. You know, in the world of NFTs, I kind of feel like we've taken pixels as far as we can go. You put them on giraffes, you put them on aliens, you put them on.
00;54;06;01 - 00;54;07;28
Chris
You know what I'm saying?
00;54;08;00 - 00;54;29;27
Aaron
I think I think we did, but I think it also the space got defensive. The they thought that just because there, there was like market based abuses which we could all talk about and all the downsides of it. And I'm not saying it's the best setup. I'm just kind of like being a little bit more clinical here. And just kind of diagnosing what I see is the issue and the opportunities.
00;54;29;27 - 00;54;52;16
Aaron
But I just think there was a huge desire, I think in part from creators that played in, played around with the space to to distance themselves from digital assets and kind of retreat back into something that felt more comfortable. But I think it while that comfort is nice, it's just I think it's fair to say it's the space isn't growing, right.
00;54;52;17 - 00;55;14;24
Aaron
It's not it's not attracting more people. And if it continues on the same trajectory, it's just going to get smaller and smaller, like it's not. There's not going to be some great reversal at some point just because an artist had their work, you know, secured and, you know, some crypto whales wallet. Right. Or ten crypto whales wallet. Like it's not going to attract enough attention to it.
00;55;14;25 - 00;55;48;24
Chris
Yeah. No I think we're coming to the same, same conclusion here. Right. Like it's not enough. It needs to evolve. The world owes you nothing. Same way for like, you know, part of this is on the collector side. I'm sure there was a lot of people still on the sidelines simply because they thought that the value, you know, the whatever, like the peak value of like some, you know, 721 they owned it, you know, now it's like a 10th, 100th or like it has zero value at all.
00;55;48;26 - 00;56;10;09
Chris
Right. Like they're sitting around like bitter about that, but like, the world owes you nothing. And so like it, it takes everyone kind of getting over, you know, whatever that magical moment in time was when no one, no one, there were no rules. And, you know, the new laws were up only like that. Time has come and gone.
00;56;10;09 - 00;56;22;12
Chris
And so, I don't know, make more interesting work, explore things further, you know, get out there, participate like it's just a massive hangover, dude.
00;56;22;13 - 00;56;36;00
Aaron
Yeah, yeah. But it's, you know, it's time to get your liquid ivy and also realize you're, you're competing with, like this, the Eye of Sauron in in AI, right? Or even even the Pope is weighing in on it.
00;56;36;01 - 00;57;11;10
Pri
Yeah, it's actually probably a good place. I mean, there's so much more to chat about here because I think, you know, Alondra myself, even Jonah, who couldn't make it, had a great post maybe. Well, at some point. However, come on to to talk a little bit about it. But there is I mean, everyone's moving in different directions, so it's nice just to kind of like take stock and go back to what made everything a little bit interesting and see how things evolve as we move forward and kind of have these moments of reflection, which I think are obviously healthy, and we all want the space to grow and have this new medium proliferate.
00;57;11;10 - 00;57;16;01
Pri
So I think this kind of conversation is is great. Sorry. Did you have something you wanted to add?
00;57;16;02 - 00;57;38;00
Alejandro
I've really thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and the point of views. And one of the things that I've, you know, what the NFT spaces has taught me is to be expansive in what I, I think and, you know, I disagree with some of the points that we talked on today, but at the same time, I'm like, but they're real.
00;57;38;01 - 00;58;08;26
Alejandro
Somebody believes in these things, so I need to pay attention to those other ways of believing and thinking of the space. You know, one counterargument that I can make to to Aaron's position is that, well, there were platforms like that were out there that were absolutely tapping into the native ness and to the network and to the market, a base, a value occurring.
00;58;08;26 - 00;58;25;20
Alejandro
And it didn't work either. You know, the it's not a sure thing that one thinking that those are the only ways that projects could fit. It's it's actually like Magic Man. Like I don't even like nobody knows.
00;58;25;21 - 00;58;31;03
Aaron
Yeah, I think I think a lot of that platforms also retreated. And they were trying to solve problems that they.
00;58;31;03 - 00;59;04;00
Aaron
Saw at scale, which was mostly bots. Right. So they were trying to build and move more towards like an auction system to avoid bots or make it like fairer for the distribution, which is a super hard problem. And I don't think we fully have the answer, but I think it was like a overcorrection. I personally think just like any and you see it everywhere now, it's much more auction based and it's just it's auctions are not fun for collectors and they don't really enable price discovery and communities to kind of form around them.
00;59;04;00 - 00;59;22;20
Aaron
And I think if you look at most of the platforms and what they what they did, you know, post ft. It was moved to that more of that type of model because they were so worried about gas wars or like somebody botting it or were these types of issues. And I think that that that hasn't been solved, which is, which is problematic.
00;59;22;20 - 00;59;47;19
Aaron
I think also like artists could have taken some lessons from like what Matt and John did. So even if we can't share royalties, like holding holding back like somebody, some of your work in a set can can also kind of lead to a positive endpoint when it comes to receiving fair compensation for it. So I think post you know, the non enforcement of royalties and OpenSea, which I think was a big blunder for the space.
00;59;47;19 - 01;00;01;27
Aaron
And then the bleeding out of royalties that blur did, along with their wacky token economics that encouraged people to like, sell and bottom out the market. I just think that there was kind of over corrections there too. Alejandro.
01;00;02;00 - 01;00;36;17
Alejandro
Yeah, I completely agree. And part of the beauty of the space we're we're oscillating from point A to point B to zero point Z very far at at times. And I mean, for those who are looking from the outside, they're missing out on the fun and the fucking stress too. But I think if we are to move forward, we will all learn from all these, you know, experiments that all the platforms that are gone did the platforms that are still here, the artists that left, the artists that are still here.
01;00;36;17 - 01;01;10;11
Alejandro
It's a question of having these moments of reflection. What pre did what Joanna did. Like we need to talk more and more about these things and you know, try to correct towards maybe a possible way forward. But there won't be there's not a one way in contemporary art. There's not a one way in the world. And the in the art book world, you know, there are many ways, but I'm excited to to keep exploring and experimenting and trying to find something that fits.
01;01;10;14 - 01;01;14;22
Alejandro
But it's not it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be tomorrow completely.
01;01;14;23 - 01;01;39;09
Pri
And honestly, Alejandro and the entire fellowship team and frankly, everyone who is building and and helping bring life in this case, obviously appreciate all the work that you guys do and like trying to push these artists, get them really the space they deserve to do their work to. So obviously we as like collectors here and people who are just chatting about this, like there's obviously so much work that goes into that.
01;01;39;09 - 01;01;57;16
Pri
So it's it's fun to debate and hopefully we all like leave here and kind of maybe you guys even think about how this applies to even fellowship or beyond. Like, I just think that there's a lot more conversations like that that, you know, could be had. And so yeah, I appreciate all the work that you guys do. And, and you as an artist as well.
01;01;57;17 - 01;02;01;22
Pri
I know you get to see both sides of it, both on the platform and artist side too.
01;02;01;23 - 01;02;25;14
Alejandro
Yeah. No, absolutely. And we're here to learn. I mean, we've made many mistakes and I think some things we've done right. And we have we we we we're a team that we feel we don't have the answers. We're just doing something that we feel is at some, at some level, the thing that we love and we're passionate about.
01;02;25;14 - 01;02;37;24
Alejandro
But we're definitely going to fail many more times. But I think that's part of the the beauty of building. So yeah, no, we really appreciate the space.
01;02;37;25 - 01;02;42;11
Pri
Yeah. Totally cool. Well, I guess on that note, should I introduce the podcast?
01;02;42;12 - 01;02;44;26
Aaron
It's the right time to do it. It's the right time to do it.
01;02;44;27 - 01;03;10;18
Pri
All right. Welcome to Net Society. Today we have Aaron, Chris, Derek and myself of course. And then special guests Alejandro from fellowship just discussing, you know, all things internet art, tech culture, specifically NFTs and digital art today. Just a quick reminder these thoughts and opinions are own and not of our employer. And none of this is financial advice.