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How can a deeper understanding of mental health help us see our world, and ourselves, differently? Hosted by therapist Kurt White and journalist Mary Wilson, each episode of Unravelling explores a complex mental health topic with insights from both professionals and people with lived experience. Whether you're trying to make sense of the world or just the slice of it inside of your head, Unravelling is here to foster a more compassionate and informed perspective on life.
The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with a qualified health care professional for any health concerns. Take care of yourself out there. Welcome to Unravelling, the podcast that sees the world through the lens of mental health. I'm Curt White, a social worker and psychotherapist.
Mary:And I'm Mary Wilson, a journalist. And today we're bringing you a really great interview with, someone who has lived experience of hoarding disorder. And this comes after last episode when, Kurt, you had a wonderful interview with Doctor. Randy Frost, is a leading expert in the field, and the two actually know each other.
Kurt:Yes. Actually, he told the story of meeting our guest today, Marnie Cooper, in the last interview.
Mary:They really have a beautiful relationship because they're helping each other, with Marnie helping Doctor. Frost really understand what it's like to deal with hoarding disorder, and of course, Doctor. Frost to being pivotal in Marnie's life and helping her let go of things, which she'll talk about in this interview.
Kurt:Yeah. I'm so interested to hear from her today. I think this is such kind of condition. Maybe maybe people even have a a kind of a certain visual sense of what this is from shows on television, for example, like we talked about a little last time. But I think to really complicate our picture of it by hearing directly from folks who have been suffering from it would be really, really, really valuable.
Mary:Yeah. Marni really wants to destigmatize this, and she does so by presenting her own story, coming from a person who is a professional and a wife and a mother and so many other things, as well as someone who deals with hoarding disorder. Marnie Cooper has been teaching, acting, and coaching for over thirty five years. She has a Facebook and also a YouTube page. They're both called A Hoarder Comes Clean.
Mary:And she's presented, as we mentioned, alongside our last guest, Doctor. Randy Frost, a leading researcher in hoarding disorder at the International OCD Foundation Conference.
Kurt:Well, let's take a listen.
Mary:Marni, welcome to Unravelling.
Marnie:Thank you. Glad to be here.
Mary:Well, we're so grateful to have you here. I know it takes a lot of courage to speak openly about something so personal, and we're so thankful that you're willing to share your experience with us today.
Marnie:My pleasure. Thank you for asking.
Mary:And to start, can you take us back to the moment when you first realized that hoarding was a part of your life?
Marnie:Sure. I mean, if I go to the beginning without me realizing it, it was when I was a little girl, and I'm gonna say 11, 10, nine. I can't place exactly. And I was definitely in elementary school, and there was a speaker, and I loved what she had to say. And I just remember going up to her and asking if I could have something of hers to remember her by perhaps her earring or something.
Marnie:And I do know that she didn't shame me because I don't have a memory of any shame from her. I just remember going up to her. Of course, she didn't give me her earring. Nobody would in their right mind, but, it just felt like I needed to have something of hers in order to remember her.
Mary:Almost like the memory itself wasn't enough. You had to have something physical.
Marnie:Proof. In my journey of letting go, I have found many, many, many items that were just kept for proof. But the hoarding, when did I first? I would say when I got a nasty email from an exercise coach I worked out with, and she said, you're a hoarder. I can't deal with you.
Marnie:That got me. I also got another around the same time, text from an organizer who said, I can't work with you. And in it's very interesting interesting because I went back to this text from the organizer. In my mind, seven or so years ago when she sent it, it was a mean, rude text. It was vile.
Marnie:And then when I went back quite recently, it really wasn't mean. It was just I am not equipped to work with you. I read it as you're a hoarder and a slob, and I can't deal with you. It was not the text that I thought it was when she sent it. So those are my two wake up calls for sure.
Marnie:And I got quite depressed after I got those texts. That's when I looked at my book stuff, which I had. That book was like my bible. And I just I I kept it in bed with me. Sometimes I'd be reading it, and I just it was like, this is the only person that understands me.
Marnie:And his name is Randy Frost, and that's all I know. Randy Frost gets me. And he had a kind picture, and one day, I just said, I'm gonna call. On the back of the book, it said he was at Smith College. So I called.
Marnie:I asked for Randy. And wouldn't you know, he said, this is Randy. And I was shocked that I got a person, but I explained that I do have a big problem, and I would love to bend his ear and see what I could do to help me. And he said, in fact, there was an IOCD conference coming up the following weekend. And I said, well, that's too soon.
Marnie:I live in Los Angeles. It's in Boston. I can't I can't do that. And then we had a nice talk, and we hung up. And then I spoke to my father, and I said, dad, I spoke to this guy who really understands what's going on.
Marnie:He said there's a conference coming up this coming weekend, and there's no way. And he goes, really? Why? And I had no reason. I just felt like it's too fast.
Marnie:I can't get on a plane, and and there was no reason. So I got on the plane. And I met him, and it was magical. I felt like I met my people. People understood me, and I had a home there.
Marnie:Well, I went to every conference that Randy and Gail were doing, and I was just so blown away. And I go to it every year, and it's as if I go I go to the same lectures and I still find something new. Here's the thing. It's a fascinating disorder if I can step away from it for a moment. And I do find that everyone with this particular disorder seems to have things very much in common.
Marnie:We all seem to like the same things.
Mary:What are some of those things?
Marnie:Boxes. Big time boxes. Like, somebody you could say to somebody, is that a good box? They'll know exactly what you mean. Right?
Marnie:Some boxes are really good. All of Amazon's get rid of. Those are flimsy in bed. But, you know, like, a ones that have the almost magnetic flap, those are those are good boxes. But I've learned to let go of even my most pretty boxes because it's still clutter.
Marnie:And I'm not at the point that I want to be at. I'm still working on it. It's not a quick fix. And once it's done, it's never done because the way to slip back into the disorder is to shop. Sometimes it feels like starting over.
Mary:I just wanna bring people sort of into your mind. When you say a good box, I kinda know what you mean. I can I that resonates with me? But but what's really happening where this is something that you don't wanna get rid of? It's not just as simple as I don't need it.
Mary:Throw it out. What makes it so difficult to get rid of?
Marnie:Well, it's almost like we have a sixth sense where we can find uses for anything. Let me give you a specific example. I put some things on the table even though this is a podcast. You can't see it, but you can see. Now this is if you will, it's it's not quite a box, but I got it for my deodorant.
Marnie:And I thought, oh, when I pack, I'll put the deodorant in here. Who does that? And today, I was looking for something else, and I came upon this, and I was like, seriously? This is going into the recycling. I'm never gonna pack my deodorant.
Marnie:You put your deodorant in in your bag that has all of your it's all of your toiletries. You don't have a box for your, deodorant. Although in the moment, I thought it was really smart to keep it.
Mary:But you recognize now very quickly that you shouldn't.
Marnie:That's right. So in fact, the brain does change, and that's where sometimes I scratch my head and go, seriously? I kept this? And that happens quite often because I am going through backlogs of stuff to let go because I really do want to have a home. I'll never have a home that's, you know, Martha Stewart approved, and that's okay.
Marnie:I just home where nobody would say, oh, that's a lot of stuff. And some rooms, totally cool, but not all of them yet.
Mary:And I know you don't describe yourself as an extreme hoarder. A lot of people might be thinking of the popular TV shows we've seen where there's mounds and mounds and, you know, you can't even make it through your house. That's not the reality for you and so many people like you. Right?
Marnie:Right. And I think that the program really does make having this disorder more embarrassing. Mhmm. Because I cannot say I suffer from a hoarding disorder without saying, but I don't have any dead cat cats or animals in my house, and the plumbing works fine. So I know I can see it the moment I say that to somebody that I have a hoarding disorder, their eyes go, oh god.
Marnie:And I immediately have to shut down the show, if you will, and say not my situation. Those are extreme hoarders. I was even on the radio because somebody was talking about hoarders, and they were putting them down. And I came on, and and I said, this is not the way everybody is. And then they said, well, then you're the exception to the rule.
Marnie:I said, not really. I'm not the exception. There's a lot of people who struggle with letting go of things. Now I do know that in my journey, if you will, I have realized that it's not the stuff per se. It's the stuff underneath the stuff.
Mary:What do you mean by that?
Marnie:It's psychological reasons that I use this as padding, if you will. I use it to protect me. I have it because of my severe perfectionism. So help me if I let go of this and I need it. You know?
Marnie:And I and I've reflected on moments in my life when I've let go of things and regretted it. Well, that doesn't happen often. And I think it's become important for me to realize that I may in fact let go of something that I later want. And that doesn't mean my life is over. It just means, oops, I made a mistake.
Marnie:I made a mistake is not something that people with this disorder are comfortable with.
Mary:You described when you were 10 or 11 and wanting to keep a physical piece of someone as a memory. But it sounds like it sort of evolved into maybe using things as sort of a safety mechanism or also not wanting to be wasteful and a fear of making mistakes. What does a mistake mean to you?
Marnie:Well, here's one thing I'm struggling with. I had a friend named Akiva, and he wore a cape, like this jacket that was like a cape. And he he was such a lovely man. And he was my friend, and he passed away. And, of course, I asked for his jacket, his cape, and I still have it.
Marnie:Now we're talking, oh lord, forty years. I have never used it. I'm never going to use it. I'm in the entertainment business, so I think, oh, it would be great for a costume, but nobody has ever used it. It's huge.
Marnie:And the thought of letting it go makes me so sad. I feel like I'm letting go of my friend again in a sense because it's like a bookmark of him. It and every time I see it, I think of him. So if it's gone, does that mean I never think of him? Now it would be lovely if I were Randy for a second.
Marnie:I would say, do you have picture of him? Because that might be far more beautiful. You could frame it, and the big cape can be gone. I don't have a picture of him. So in the scheme of things, I'm sure in my journey that's gonna go as well.
Marnie:Not there yet.
Mary:A lot of people can relate to having a sentimental item like that. People without hoarding disorder. What makes it a problem? When does it cross over into being an issue?
Marnie:For sure. When it gets in your way of your life. It becomes an issue when the amount of things is so great that it gets in the way of your everyday life. It makes your life harder. And there are still rooms in my house that I'm uncomfortable being in even.
Marnie:And it's very interesting to me because what was it? I let go of something. Oh, no. I I lost something. And I told my husband, damn, I wanted that bag.
Marnie:It I keep it for I my my dog goes in the bag, and it's a perfect I bought it at a dog store, and I lost it. And he's like, well, you got another one. Move on. That just pisses me off. That's something it's clear he in the moment, he doesn't understand this disorder.
Marnie:Move on is something you would say to somebody perhaps that doesn't have this disorder. But that and that's very important to me. The things that you say to somebody with this disorder can be very hurtful, and that's what I ask people who are dealing with people like myself to come from a place of love and support. Yeah. When the pandemic was going on, I had four cats in New York, and they needed crates at the shelters.
Marnie:And I looked at them and I said, okay. I want the crate because it's a memory of my cats. And my daughter was so wise. She said, mom, did they like going in the crate? And I went, never.
Marnie:Mhmm. They hated the crates. And that was a very loving thing to say to me because that was helping me release the angst of letting it go. And then I thought about the animals that could benefit.
Mary:Four
Marnie:animals would be able to benefit. So I put them in my car, and I let them go. So when the need is greater than the want, if you will, I'm able to release it. Now today, I release things a lot easier. It used to be through cement, if you will.
Marnie:Today, again, my daughter, came home from college when she was in college. She came home from college, and she saw a pen of mine. She's like, oh, I love the way this writes. Can I have it? And I said, sure.
Marnie:So things like that just come out of me, I'm like, was that me? That's perfect. I love that.
Mary:It sounds like how loved ones react makes a big difference. I think I've heard stories of family members going in and cleaning out someone's house and throwing things away when they're not there, And I can only imagine how devastating that would be for someone. That's obviously not the way that loved ones should deal with someone facing this disorder.
Marnie:Not at all. In fact, my husband would let go of some of the things of mine. I almost I I thought it was grounds for divorce when he threw out my daughter made a broom in a Harry Potter class. And one of the dogs pissed on it, unbeknownst to me, outside, and he just tossed it in the trash. And I was like, what are you doing?
Marnie:And I remember calling Randy in a frenzy, and I said, this son of a bitch just threw out my daughter's Harry Potter broom. Now my daughter could care less, by the way. But to me, that really hurt me because I felt at the time that I could clean it, and it was really a beautiful broom that she made in one of these classes. And it was a time period that I loved. You know, her Harry Potter time when she carried her books around everywhere, and we really enjoyed all of the magic that went along with it, and it was a really special time.
Marnie:And I really felt it was grounds for divorce. I was like, you know what? I don't wanna be married to this man who destroyed something I love. We talked for a while, and I still did not love that he let it go without asking me. And that's the thing.
Marnie:All I think had he said, Marnie, the dog peed on it. We're not gonna get the stench out. Would it be okay with you to take a picture of it and let it go? And I think I would have said no, and then I would have come back about an hour later and said, yeah. Let's do it.
Mary:It sounds like you need just sort of some mental gymnastics. You need to really think about it and reason with yourself until you come to that place where, okay, this makes sense. We can donate it or we can get rid of it.
Marnie:And I need that processing time. Other people don't need it. I do.
Mary:And I'd love to hear more about how you're assigning this sentimental value to things. It makes sense. It's, a craft that your daughter made who you love so much, a special time you said. What happens when you get rid of that broom? Where does the sentimental value go?
Mary:Does it need a place to live?
Marnie:Well, it lives in my heart, and that's really the bottom line with everything is it's in my body. It's in my heart. It's in my mind. But I gotta say, I think it's true that if you have a little something and you pass it by, you will go, oh, how sweet. That was so sweet.
Marnie:And if you put it in a drawer or a closet and you don't see it again, maybe somebody will be talking about, do you remember the Harry Potter broom? Oh, I love that. But it we don't go to it as often. And is that okay? Yeah.
Marnie:It has to be because I want to live in a serene environment, and having stuff everywhere does not make me feel calm and serene. And I did do an exercise with Randy, which was phenomenal. When my mom passed away, I got everything. Not everything, but I've got a lot of her stuff, including things that just were trash. Like, I had her trash bin, and I couldn't let it go.
Marnie:And it had no memory that was positive for me, But it was in her apartment, and I couldn't let it go. And so Randy knew I told him I had a letter from my mom that she wrote that was beautiful. He said, why don't you go get the letter? And I got the letter and I read the letter. I started crying.
Marnie:And then I looked back at the trash can and I said, Randy, I don't need the trash can. And I dumped it. So that has helped a lot in just comparing things and deciding what will suffice one thing instead of a 100. Mhmm. I think that's what people without this disorder do.
Marnie:They keep things, but within reason.
Mary:And you're going through this process of letting things go. You mentioned also having to not bring in new things. When you're at a store, is it a challenge? We all have to shop for essentials that we need. What's it like for you when you go into a store now?
Marnie:It depends on the store. If I go into a Penn store, me and stationery, god help me. I could open up a stationery store. I still can. And I haven't let go of much of my stationery because I enjoy writing cards.
Marnie:I love writing a thank you card. I love writing cards to my dad even though, you know, with his he has Lewy body dementia, and I know that he will appreciate the card for about thirty seconds, and then he won't remember it. But I say to myself, for those thirty seconds that give him joy, is it worth it? And I go, yes. Send him another card.
Marnie:So I enjoy sending my dad cards. And so a card store, yeah, is difficult for me. A stationary store is still difficult for me. As of late, I really feel I had a big breakthrough recently where I just am feeling I don't want another pen. I don't, you know, I don't I don't want to have something else come into my home.
Marnie:I just don't. It's just too much.
Mary:What's sort of the difference between a sentimental object that you have and the need and desire to purchase a new pen or some stationery?
Marnie:Well, I think with the stationery, I get very excited because I'll see something. I go, ugh. My friend Claire would love that. And I immediately buy it, and then I don't send it to her. And then it becomes clutter.
Marnie:So my immediate reaction is it will give someone joy, but then it lays in my house for years and years and years. And so then it if it's not used, it becomes clutter or appreciated. It becomes clutter.
Mary:Why do you think you don't send it? Why does it never make it to that sort of imagined purpose?
Marnie:Well, today, it does. I have a little what do you call it? A little free bookshop, a little free bookstore on my lawn. I love it. And I saw a book in it that I wanted to read.
Marnie:And, again, it became a conversation with myself. Am I really gonna read it? Yes. No. No.
Marnie:No. Breathe. Am I really gonna read it? I want to. Could you take it inside and start reading it and make sure this is something that you want to keep reading?
Marnie:Yes. I brought it inside. I started reading it, and I fell in love with this book. And I have to make agreements with myself. Okay, Marni.
Marnie:If you bring this in, you gotta read it and then put it back out there when you're done so somebody else can appreciate it. And I did it. I read the book. I loved the book. I put it back, and now somebody else can appreciate it.
Mary:How does it feel to have those successes?
Marnie:Terrific. It really feels like breakthroughs because I always thought you just keep them. Books that you love, you keep. And then what do you do with them? No.
Marnie:You just keep them. There was never, like, an end to it. And, also, as I'm getting older, I realize I'm not gonna be around forever, and I do not want all of this crap to become my daughters and my husbands or my daughters or depending on you know? It's just not fair to do to the next generation, to leave them with all of your worldly and unworldly possessions.
Mary:Is that something that you think about quite often, sort of where the things will go?
Marnie:Oh, well, I don't you know what? It's just changed so much. I used to really make sure it went into the right hands. But now I'm like, hope it does. If it doesn't, I did the best I could.
Marnie:I've come a long, long way. I still have a pillow that is for a dog, and this pillow, none of my dogs sit on. So like those crates, I think, oh, I'm gonna bring it to a shelter, and some dog's gonna love it. The truth is I'm not quite there yet. I want my dog to love it, and I don't put it on the ground so the dog's not gonna go on it.
Marnie:I just have it. That would be an example of the hoarder's mind, if you will. I don't use it. I have it. I love it.
Marnie:I think I would miss it terribly. I don't think I'd ever be able to replace it, And those are all probably lies, because my brain does lie to me. It's it's not always truthful.
Mary:It sounds like there's always sort of a dialogue going, you know, one side is in conflict with the other in your head, and that sounds like it could be exhausting.
Marnie:Yes. When it's important to me, but it's really not all the time. It doesn't happen all I don't pick up a highlighter and go, oh, well, this hot no. I can live my life. I run a business.
Marnie:I'm I'm successful in what I do. And when it's something that I want at a store, yes, I have to stop. And Randy, even in his book, has a list of questions that you can ask yourself. And it's a really good list starting with, do I have something similar to this? Right?
Marnie:And that helps me. I used to carry it around all the time. Now it's just easy for me to ask myself, do I have something similar? Probably, yes. But I it's easier.
Marnie:It's just, you know what? Everybody's got something that they struggle with. This is my struggle. And to think that I can let go of things with ease today, I used to keep every magazine because it had I haven't read every article. Well, you know what?
Marnie:You don't have to read every article. You could you can buy a magazine, read one article that you're dying to read, and recycle it. And that's a breakthrough for me because it used to be I have to read the whole thing. It was all about perfectionism.
Mary:And I love that you are brave enough to share your journey with everyone. You had the video project with Randy Frost where you sent him hundreds of videos, and you even shared some of those videos on Facebook and on YouTube. Why were you comfortable with showing that sort of intimate part of your life, and what did you hope to accomplish with those videos?
Marnie:Because I wanna help others. And people have come up to me and and said, you have no idea how much it helps me. I was able to then let go of blah blah blah. I get so much joy helping others, and that's really where I've been able to let go of a lot of stuff because it does give others joy. And if I like, I gave a pair of boots to my assistant, they were boots were in mint condition.
Marnie:I haven't worn high heels in I can't even tell you how many years. I'm just not comfortable, And they were so beautiful. And I went up to my assistant. I said, would you like these? And her eyes lit up.
Marnie:And she was like, I would love them. I said, here, enjoy them. Do you know that day, it just carried such a warmth. I was like, I love that I made her happy. I'll never wear those boots again.
Marnie:So I release things with joy.
Mary:And it's really destigmatizing too, I think, your videos because people see you. You're very successful in what you do. You know, you're not what maybe someone thinks of as a person that would have this disorder. Do you think that goes a long way as well?
Marnie:Yes. I do. Whenever I speak, I make sure not today because it's a podcast, but I make sure I get my hair done, do my makeup that give a different image because they expect me to come in smelling and wearing clothes that have holes in them. I don't I don't keep clothes with holes. It's important to me that I am also a face of this disorder, and people just expect unshowered, unkempt, smelly people with rotting foods.
Marnie:You could open my fridge. There's nothing rotting in there. In fact, there was something that I bought that I really wanted to eat, and then I looked at it, and I was like, I don't really want this. And it was a bummer that I didn't eat it, but I really didn't want it, so I tossed it. I and I did.
Marnie:I asked my assistant, would you eat these? And she said, no. No. I don't like those. So I didn't then put it on Facebook or or Nextdoor.
Marnie:It was just let it go. Let it go.
Mary:I love how you said release with joy, and it struck me that it's sort of the opposite of of the popular phrase that was really big at a time by Marie Kondo. Do you remember that
Marnie:Yeah.
Mary:If it Yeah. Sparks joy, you know, ask yourself that. But I remember a really funny video that you made where you said a paper clip can spark joy for me. So tell me how that that mantra doesn't exactly work for you or or people facing similar challenges.
Marnie:Everything is joyful for a moment, and then we're stuck with it, and then it doesn't ever leave the house. I have a client who has a what do you call it? The whole bees? They have bees? Bee sanctuary, whatever.
Mary:Okay.
Marnie:And I had a bag that said something with a b. So I asked the client, would you like this bag? It was really pretty, but I'm not gonna use it. And she was like, sure. So maybe I'll ask her if she wants this little b guy with it.
Marnie:And if she says no, then it's going to, some stranger. See, I'd much rather it go to somebody who has a face that I could see them go, oh, I love this. But you don't always get that. Because if I did that for every single object in my house, that would be my second job. Do you know what I mean?
Marnie:It just I can't. And I was doing that a lot. I love putting things on next door because people will jeez. It's amazing. People will just take anything.
Mary:It sounds like moving forward, that is your focus is joy in others and in yourself.
Marnie:Yes. You could see joy when you give things to people of things that they want. I think our generation my generation and back, there was so much stuff. We were always carrying around. Here, this is my my grandmother's plates from, you know, you need to appreciate them.
Marnie:My daughter would look at those, and if she didn't like them, she she would say, no. Not for me. And our generation is like, but that was your great grandmother's. Okay. Glad she enjoyed them.
Marnie:Bye. You know? And I still have that connection to some things. It was my great grandmother's, and therefore, I must keep it, but that's again a lie. If you don't thoroughly enjoy something, you don't have to keep it.
Marnie:And guess what? You can also make a mistake. What if I let go of this bee thing, and I thought, oh, I miss it. Okay. So I'd have to just sit with that feeling.
Marnie:It's okay to miss something, and then it passes. Yeah. There has not been one thing that I've let go of that I really regretted. I've let go of hundreds and hundreds of things.
Mary:I think a lot of us listening maybe know someone who struggles with letting go of things. How can we help them, or is it really up to that person to decide that they want the help?
Marnie:I have been asked many times to talk to someone's mother, sister, brother, please intervene and help them. I cannot. My story may resonate with them, so show them some videos and say, this is somebody I discovered. Maybe you wanna, watch them. Sure.
Marnie:But you cannot make somebody do something they don't wanna do. This is a very difficult disorder, and we have what's called clutter blindness. We live with the stuff so much. We don't even see it as clutter. So, no, you cannot make somebody do something they're not ready to do.
Marnie:You just can't. And that's why I'm in many ways, I'm not a fan of the shows because they come in too fast, and it's a process. I think it's just like dieting. Yeah. We can lose weight real quick, but then we're gonna gain the weight back if we're not mindful about it, if we're not changing our actual behavior.
Marnie:I've had to change my behavior. I'm 61 years old. That's a lot to do the older you get. So I wish I could say I would just give out my phone number, and I'll help them, but it's it doesn't work that way.
Mary:On the flip side of things, can you tell me a bit about how you feel your hoarding has maybe hurt others?
Marnie:Sure. If I could go back and do it over again, I would do it so differently with my daughter. My god. I remember her coming to me and saying, mom, it's embarrassing to have my friends over. And I really didn't mean to hurt her.
Marnie:From the bottom of my heart, she's just she's my everything. And a disorder is a disorder. If I had a broken arm, somebody wouldn't say, you know what? Get get just heal your arm for god's sakes. Do it quickly.
Marnie:It takes time, And I wasn't there yet. I'm here now, and I'm grateful to be here now. Would I love to go back in time? Yes. We all would, but we can't.
Marnie:And I'm so sorry for the people that I've hurt. My husband, my daughter, almost missing planes because I saw that there was something I had to buy. I had to buy as if it was, like, life and death. And the best way they can get an apology is by me changing my behavior.
Mary:And you've done that, and they're in your lives today. So that's beautiful. Ugh. Yes. Yes.
Mary:Well, Marni, thank you so much for being so open with us and sharing about your journey. I love the humor that you bring to everything. And I think it's really helpful for people who are dealing with this and also just who want to really understand more about hoarding. So thank you so much for your time.
Marnie:Thank you.
Mary:And my thanks again to Marnie for being so courageous and willing to open up and share about her story with us. Listening along was Kurt. Hi, Kurt.
Kurt:Hi, Mary. My goodness. What a what a powerful interview and a powerful ending to it with that heartfelt apology. Really quite affecting. Yeah.
Kurt:I'm very grateful that she would speak with us in this way. I think in all my time as a clinician, I don't think I've ever really I've heard people talk about other problems with mental health, depression, and even psychosis and schizophrenia, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone before share in that way about the the struggles with this really stigmatized and misunderstood problem.
Mary:Sounds like there's a lot of shame wrapped up in all of this. And, again, thankful to Marnie that she was able to overcome that and tell us about her story.
Kurt:I can only imagine the the number of people that she's helped just by doing that. And I hope maybe among our listeners, there's some some further opportunity to change people's minds and perspectives about the amount of work that goes into getting treatment for and healing from this really, really misunderstood problem.
Mary:Yeah. And a lifelong process.
Kurt:Lifelong process. Yeah.
Mary:And if you wanna learn more, specifically about Marnie's journey, she has chronicled it online. You can head to her Facebook page, or her YouTube page, and we'll link those in the show notes. It's called A Hoarder Comes Clean.
Kurt:Thank you, listeners, for joining us. We will see you again next time. Unravelling is brought to you by Brattleboro Retreat. Our producers at Charts and Leisure are Andrew Adkin, Hans Buteau, and Jason Oberholzer.
Mary:And you can find us on social media by searching Brattleboro Retreat. Brattleboro Retreat is committed to exploring diverse perspectives on mental health. While we invite hosts and guests to share their insights, the views expressed are their own and do not necessarily reflect the policies or positions of the hospital or its staff.