Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold

Amy Gustincic and Jay Ganaden both served as presidents of AIGA San Francisco—at different times, but with a shared passion for community, creativity, and experimentation. In this episode, they reflect on the wild ride of shaping SF’s chapter culture, from designing risk-friendly programming to redefining who AIGA is really for.

From parties that made the fire marshal nervous to retreats that sparked systemic change, they share lessons in leadership, legacy, and letting your weird ideas fly. Also: ghost tours, secret code names, and what happens when a national leader shows up and gets mistaken for security.

Key Takeaways
  • Design is never neutral: Jay and Amy challenged who AIGA was for—and designed toward that
  • Let the vision be weird: AIGA SF’s best programming came from instinct, not consensus
  • Strategy that looked like a party: San Francisco’s signature move.
  • Lead with impact, not polish: Jay reminds us that systems work beats showmanship
  • Make your own template: They both pushed back on “default AIGA” in favor of community-first design

Key Moments in This Episode

01:05 – The earliest memories: student chapters, ghost tours, and blurry lines between volunteer and friend
03:40 – Amy’s presidency: events, vibes, and pushing the SF board into its weird era
06:00 – Jay’s turn: building a chapter brand that challenged national assumptions
08:25 – The party as strategy: from venues that smelled like cat pee to community as curation
12:40 – Fires, fire marshals, and the time Jay was mistaken for security
15:50 – Retreats and realignment: translating vibes into systems
18:30 – Leadership friction: why resisting default settings is part of the job
21:15 – After the presidency: when impact shows up in unexpected places
24:00 – Advice for future board members: don’t wait for permission

About Our Guests

Amy Gustincic is a designer and strategist based in the Bay Area, leading Studio Bellwether for over 15 years. She works with creative teams and organizations to articulate vision, align stakeholders, and turn possibility into reality. She also served as a past AIGA SF president, helping shape the chapter’s legacy of design-forward leadership.

Jay Ganaden is an experience strategy leader and creative executive, currently at Adobe. His career spans tech, finance, and design sectors—bringing a human-centered lens to complex systems and brand experiences. A former AIGA SF president, he believes deeply in “build it yourself” community-making, and using design as a mechanism for belonging.


Featuring
Guest Amy Gustincic, connect on LinkedIn
Guest Jay Ganaden, connect on LinkedIn
Host Erik Cargill, connect on LinkedIn
Host Rachel Elnar, connect on LinkedIn 


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Creators and Guests

Host
Erik Cargill
Product Design and Branding Consultant Erik Cargill's journey spans from crafting early mobile interfaces in the '90s to transforming global shipping logistics software. As Art Director at Handmark, he led a creative team to capture 38% of the mobile software market, and during his 15-year tenure at Tideworks Technology, he proved that even the most complex systems can become user-friendly. Now, as founder of 32FramesPerSecond in Seattle, Erik helps companies create intuitive digital experiences, bringing his philosophy of "embracing change and failing gracefully" to every project. His unique blend of technical expertise and authentic approach makes him an engaging co-host of ’Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold,’ where he helps uncover the stories that shaped our design community.
Host
Rachel Elnar
Rachel Elnar believes the magic happens when design meets community. As a Senior Creative Producer at Adobe, she's mastered the art of turning webinars into wonderlands where over 45,000 creatives annually connect, learn, and grow together. As an AIGA National Board Member and content producer, Rachel continues to weave her magic, producing engaging live-streaming shows and video content to reach thousands more while advocating for inclusivity in the creative industry. Now, as an AIGA National Board Member and co-host of “Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold,” Rachel continues to weave her magic, creating experiences that don’t just look good—they feel right.
Guest
Amy Gustincic
Amy is a Los Angeles–based design strategist and community organizer at Studio Bellweather who’s spent her career bringing designers together to learn, experiment, and build stronger creative ecosystems.
Guest
Jay Ganaden
Jay is a Director of Strategic Development for Adobe Firefly, where he leads generative-AI innovation and partners with global brands on the future of creative workflows.

What is Cheers & Tiers: Design Leadership Tales Retold?

Cheers & Tiers welcomes you into a circle of design leaders whose bonds were forged during iconic AIGA design leadership retreats and conferences. These gatherings were more than just strategic sessions with the nation’s chapter leaders—they were moments of shared growth, laughter, and camaraderie that shaped careers and lives, blending organizational development with celebratory toasts and even the occasional human pyramid.

Fellow design leaders Erik and Rachel as they reconnect with friends about shared experiences, memorable lessons, and transformative moments gleaned that defined this extraordinary group. Join us as we honor the relationships and memories that continue to shape design and leadership today.

Rachel Elnar:

Chapter two.

Erik Cargill:

I'm Erik Cargill.

Rachel Elnar:

And I'm Rachel Elnar. And this is Cheers and Tears.

Erik Cargill:

Design leadership tales retold.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah, just to add to all the things that are happening this year, guess what? We lost the intro for Amy and Jay's podcasts. No. Oh, no. So we wanna do it again for everyone.

Rachel Elnar:

So everyone knows who they are. And so I wanted to introduce you before we get into the podcast. Eric, so I'm excited to have two creative leaders from AIGA San Francisco on the podcast with us. Amy is a Los Angeles based design strategist and community organizer at Studio Bellwether, who spent her career bringing designers together to learn, experiment, and build stronger creative ecosystems. Joining her is Jay, Director of Strategic Development for Adobe Firefly, where he leads generative AI innovation and partners with brands on the future of creative workflows.

Rachel Elnar:

And together, our guests sit right at the intersection of design practice and design possibility. Perfect pairing for the conversation that we're about to hear. So please help me welcome Amy Gustinsik and Jay Ganaden. Woo hoo.

Erik Cargill:

Welcome. Welcome.

Rachel Elnar:

Amy, really quick question. So you were president, correct?

Amy Gustincic:

Yep.

Rachel Elnar:

Who are some of the people who are on your board?

Amy Gustincic:

Brian Singer was vice president. Jay was membership. Alice Bybee and Matt Cook were business. Jay, who else was there? Oh, Shel Perkins was treasurer.

Amy Gustincic:

He was forever treasurer.

Jay Ganaden:

It's Tom Ingalls?

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. I bet he was. Like

Jay Ganaden:

sponsorship or something?

Amy Gustincic:

It's so hard. I mean, that was a really long time ago. It's really long. It's really hard to remember.

Rachel Elnar:

You said that was about twenty years ago?

Erik Cargill:

Yeah. Woah.

Jay Ganaden:

Mary Scott. Right?

Erik Cargill:

Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

Or Phil.

Amy Gustincic:

It could have been either Education.

Rachel Elnar:

That's great. What a powerhouse team you had. Thank you, Amy. Appreciate that.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah.

Rachel Elnar:

Alright, Jay. Let's let's hear your backstory.

Jay Ganaden:

Oof. My backstory. So I was one of those guys that was willing and able that that Amy mentioned. And so I was on the heels of a career reinvention, one of them, where I was a photographer having been in tech and management consulting for seven years prior. And I just knew one of the things I needed to do was was network.

Jay Ganaden:

And so I I went to, like maybe it was a traveling lounge, Amy, and met you there. And you said, hey. You should join the board or, like, join the NGA, something like that. And I met oh gosh. Who were they at the time?

Jay Ganaden:

There was

Amy Gustincic:

like Heather. Yeah. Lori Zerani. Heather Hitchcock.

Jay Ganaden:

Heather Heather Hitchcock. Okay. Right. So they were both the membership

Amy Gustincic:

And they're the ones who were membership chairs when I started, and they scooped me in.

Jay Ganaden:

So they welcomed me in as well as did Amy. And so I started to attend some events and then it wasn't that much long after until I was on the board. I think Amy or, sorry. Heather and Lori wanted to retire. And, and so I, I picked it up.

Jay Ganaden:

And so that was that. And then not even a year later, I was at that two thousand six retreat in San Francisco.

Rachel Elnar:

So you were both on the board when you went to the San Francisco Leadership Retreat?

Erik Cargill:

No. Did you guys That's right. So that San Francisco retreat, did you guys have any hand in in planning all that, presenting?

Amy Gustincic:

It's so hard it's so hard to remember. I was really trying because Jay and I got together not too long ago. We were kinda talking, and then I was really been trying to remember all the things. And certainly, so I I know I was the incoming president at the time because that's when boards turned over. And I know there were some just a few light little issues with the outgoing president between him and he, which I won't go into.

Amy Gustincic:

But and and I kinda remember that more than but certainly I would have been involved in in planning as president of the chapter. I just really don't remember. What I remember most about leadership retreats is drinking.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah.

Amy Gustincic:

And dancing. And like Pittsburgh was I mean, it was my first one, and it was just out of control. The craziness, the insanity, the late nights, and the drinking and the going to the bars and dancing. And then people came to San Francisco and they're like, we wanna go to the bars and go dancing. And we're like, we don't know where you do that in San Francisco.

Amy Gustincic:

And we went to some bar, people were like trying to dance and then they turned the music to terrible, like non danceable music because they just wanted us to get out because we were so obnoxious. So not the vibe of that bar. That's what I remember most about.

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, so good. So Pittsburgh was the year prior. Eric, what year was that?

Erik Cargill:

Pittsburgh was, 2005.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. I still don't know where to go dancing in San Francisco.

Amy Gustincic:

Bro, who goes dancing in San Francisco?

Jay Ganaden:

There's a few clubs now. Some good ones. The Midway. Go the Midway. Good DJs.

Amy Gustincic:

Got it. Funny.

Jay Ganaden:

Public works.

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, so if the leadership retreat comes back to San Francisco, Jay is going to be involved.

Jay Ganaden:

He My, like, old school raver days. Yep. Coming right.

Erik Cargill:

I don't think my liver could handle it.

Amy Gustincic:

No. He drank a lot.

Rachel Elnar:

He drank

Amy Gustincic:

so much. So much.

Erik Cargill:

So did you guys you guys predated human pyramids. Right? Or did you do those?

Amy Gustincic:

I predated. Oh, you did? You did them today.

Jay Ganaden:

I did participate. I did that was Portland. And then also the national conference, one of those years, maybe it was 2009.

Erik Cargill:

Same year. Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

Yes. Pyramids and we we revitalized the pyramid for Don's birthday not too long ago on the beach. You know, we said, okay. Firm up that core. Don't wanna, like, be with the dentist or, like, some 50 year old nurse.

Erik Cargill:

We just start out with free chair. And workshop. So

Jay Ganaden:

Be surprised how many people needed some tutoring on the human pyramid versus the way we did them twenty years ago.

Rachel Elnar:

Totally. All right. So what happened at the San Francisco retreat? I wasn't there. It was a while before pyramids.

Rachel Elnar:

What type of things did you guys do? Do you remember have any memories from the retreat?

Jay Ganaden:

Man, it's like, it's the same thing. It's tough recalling it. Like I think I was still super new. I didn't even know that I could go to the retreat or what it was. So I was just really kinda soaking it in.

Jay Ganaden:

There's, you know, the usual kinda breakout sessions. And then I do remember some kind of just a place where we could view some artwork. But apart from that, I I'm it's really foggy.

Amy Gustincic:

We're the best guest to have on for the twenty year old memories. But I I remember that it was at the Fairmont Hotel. Oh, which is Back in those days, like, they booked it into nice hotels, I think Miami was the last one where they did that. And then afterwards, they started going to smaller, less expensive markets. But I don't think we stayed in the hotel because since we all lived in the area.

Amy Gustincic:

So maybe that was slightly less fun. But I remember one session that National put on where it was about creating personas and they insisted on getting giant foam core, like, bust shapes cut out. Like, they couldn't just use squares of foam core or poster board or something. They needed to have these, like, cut outs. It was a huge pain in the ass.

Amy Gustincic:

It was super expensive to do, and I'm pretty sure the chapter had pay for that. So that then people could like take magazines and cut, you know, cut things out to represent their personas and stick them onto the bust shapes, which was way more effective than just sticking them onto a square of paper. Right? Classic. Classic.

Amy Gustincic:

Was it fun though? I mean, you enjoy it? Do that exercise or

Rachel Elnar:

The the

Amy Gustincic:

exercise. I know.

Rachel Elnar:

I did.

Amy Gustincic:

At the time, I didn't really understand the value of personas to tell you the truth. So I really didn't. And, I mean, in a workshop scenario, it's kind of silly anyways because it's all just make believe that there's no real like, there's you know, it's not like there's research behind it. So And I was probably just cranky about having to put that together.

Rachel Elnar:

Possibly. Possibly. But, the Fairmont has the beautiful little tiki bar downstairs. Correct?

Amy Gustincic:

Yep. Yep. The is it the Tonga

Rachel Elnar:

bar? Oh, yeah. Is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Elnar:

Anyone jump in the pool?

Amy Gustincic:

I don't think we got to use that Oh.

Rachel Elnar:

As part

Amy Gustincic:

of the part of the retreat.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. I don't remember being down there. Is it was that Dave was kinda into that whole tiki bar scene. I don't handle what

Amy Gustincic:

Dave Gottwald, he was on

Jay Ganaden:

the board. Was he like the student rep when he was still in grad school?

Amy Gustincic:

Well, I bet he was. He was funny. It was either him or Tom Klump when I retired from being president. Gave me a pop brownie before it was before it was legal. And I am not a good drug user.

Amy Gustincic:

And I he he was like, just eat a little. And I just ate a little and then like fell instantly as long.

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, man. Who was president of the chapter after you retired, Amy? Was that Brian?

Amy Gustincic:

It was Brian.

Rachel Elnar:

Okay. Good.

Amy Gustincic:

And I listened to Brian's podcast and he's like, I don't really remember too much of the but so I mean, maybe San Francisco. It's just everybody's blocked it out of their minds. But I do remember Brian kind of like struggling with like, what bar what bars do we go to?

Rachel Elnar:

I feel like all the bars in San Francisco are really small. I don't know where you could fit 200 people

Amy Gustincic:

No. They're small and it's more chill and it's I mean, none of us were like going out dancing. That's just not, you know, someone designers were doing at the time. Middle aged designers.

Erik Cargill:

I love it. I love it.

Jay Ganaden:

I know

Erik Cargill:

we're little aged at that time.

Jay Ganaden:

It was like, we're in our thirties.

Amy Gustincic:

I guess no. We were young at the time. We're middle aged now.

Rachel Elnar:

Okay. But late nights. Let's talk about late nights. So after after programming activities, were you up really late? Was there after parties?

Jay Ganaden:

The retreats specifically? Or

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. In the retreat. I don't

Jay Ganaden:

remember much of San Francisco.

Erik Cargill:

It have to be San Francisco because it sounds like you guys kind of stayed at your own places because you were there. And

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. I think we did have a different dynamic being living in the host city. The other ones I went to, it was always just late nights. I mean, I feel like there was one where we were up so late and we had early flights and we're just like, well, I guess we're just staying up. And then like, okay, let's go get our suitcases and we'll meet in the lobby and go to the airport, which is bad.

Amy Gustincic:

I mean, that was bad. I remember exactly which one. The flying home was like very rough. Terrible. A terrible idea.

Amy Gustincic:

But I guess I guess maybe we were young then.

Rachel Elnar:

We were

Amy Gustincic:

young, I think. Bet.

Erik Cargill:

Was this Miami specifically or just

Amy Gustincic:

It was probably Pittsburgh. Pitts I think I mean, again, like, I don't I don't know if you've heard from anyone else, but in my memory, Pittsburgh was the craziest retreat. Really? Really. That's where I met David Mays.

Rachel Elnar:

Okay.

Amy Gustincic:

And we we were out at a bar and we were dancing and like, people's shirts were coming off and what? It was so and all these people that you really know on like a professional level are just going crazy. People like I don't wanna name names, but like walking into the hotel lobby, and like, this person's sitting on this person's lap, like, just, you know, very inappropriate.

Rachel Elnar:

Perfect. Yeah. Would say that everyone got really close. Everyone got really close to Jason's retreats. We loved

Amy Gustincic:

each We did love each other. And it it it was a it was so much fun and such like a fun way. And like, gosh, do we even need any of the programming? I don't know because some of it was practical and good. Oh, I'm kind of remembering like maybe we did like some kind of financial thing in

Rachel Elnar:

San Francisco.

Jay Ganaden:

What was the book he wrote? Like Yeah. It's about, like, professional practice or something running an agency.

Amy Gustincic:

I'm sure it was.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. He was the most sober and insightful person at the retreat, I'd say. He was a pro, you know?

Amy Gustincic:

But he went to every retreat he could go to. Really? He was older. He was the gray hair in the room, which actually somebody else who was on the board maybe he was business development. I have no memory of what his name was, but he was older than the rest of us and he had gray hair and he would talk about how like, sometimes you just need a little gray hair in the room, right?

Amy Gustincic:

To like make people feel confident in what you're doing. And Shell was always the gray hair. He was such a great guy and he was on the board for so long. And I think he went to the leadership retreat every single year that he could. He just must have liked going to the leadership retreat with all this, I mean, he's probably twenty years older than all of us at the time.

Amy Gustincic:

He probably hung out with Rick Greffet and drank wine and ate steaks or something. I don't know.

Rachel Elnar:

And he was the treasurer on the board?

Amy Gustincic:

He was the treasurer. I think he did a lot of programming at the various retreats and tried to school all the young people.

Jay Ganaden:

A cofounder of the chapter? He's definitely past president.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. Definitely past president. I don't know if he cofounded the chapter. He could have. I should know that.

Amy Gustincic:

I did a big history project.

Rachel Elnar:

I mean, David Mays has been on LA forever. There are just some people who don't leave the board, sometimes out of necessity and sometimes out of love.

Jay Ganaden:

There's a guy in San Diego too. Right? They remember they ran, like, their own conference.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. The Y conference? Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

Is really

Rachel Elnar:

it Bennett?

Jay Ganaden:

Bennett. That's it.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. Mhmm. I thought I would be alive for for sure. I thought I would like I could not imagine that there would ever be a time that I wouldn't be involved, but honestly, like, I'm not even an AIGA member anymore. I know.

Amy Gustincic:

It's it's crazy to me.

Jay Ganaden:

I'm following up as well.

Amy Gustincic:

I moved from San Francisco to LA in 2013. And then I reached out to the president there because I'm like, oh, I'm in LA. How am I gonna meet people? Like, of course, I'm gonna get involved in AIG. And the president was so nice.

Amy Gustincic:

And he's just like, great. Come in again. Like, if you're gonna willing to do some stuff, we're happy to have you. And I joined the advisory board for L. A.

Amy Gustincic:

And so I met a bunch of people and and and that was great. And then I just you know, the the the leadership changes and and and what I was doing changed and I just didn't have time to continue doing that. And maybe it wasn't even needed. And again, now I'm not even a member and it was really great and important while I was, and it's just not something that fits in with what I'm doing right now.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. That makes sense. Amy, I met you at Sean Adams' house, think.

Amy Gustincic:

That sounds right. We were

Rachel Elnar:

drunk. That's what I remember. Keeping with the theme.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

Was he wearing a suit? Was he all just perfect skin? Like, that guy

Erik Cargill:

Makes him perfect hair.

Rachel Elnar:

He's probably in Palm Springs right now.

Amy Gustincic:

I I reached out to him recently for a recommendation for something, and we actually live kind of in the same neighborhood in LA. And then he gave me the good recommendation, and then he said, oh, we should get together sometime. And I said, oh, yeah. Great. But I'm gonna be at Palm Springs for this amount of time.

Amy Gustincic:

And then he never responded to it anymore. So I don't know. I don't know if that's just what he says to everybody. He's all good. Good.

Rachel Elnar:

Jay, let's hear about Portland. Are there any standout memories for you?

Jay Ganaden:

So I think Portland was my Pittsburgh experience that Amy had. I thought it was nutto. I think we're like I I do remember the evening itinerary being more active than I think I had a speaking. I had to speak. I can't remember what about.

Jay Ganaden:

But it it I I do remember standing in front of everybody and I was I shouldn't have been surprised, but most, like, maybe 95% of the people there were all wearing all black. It was just it was just weird. I just no. I mean, I was like, okay. Someone got the memo, including myself.

Jay Ganaden:

That's what I was it's easy enough. Right? But and then, yeah, I just met a ton of people. People that, like, you know, that I'd read about or had heard about, like and so that was that was fun and interesting. And then, yeah, as we sort of finished the programming and went on to the dinners, the bars, the the late nights in the hotel, and then the human pyramids.

Jay Ganaden:

Like, that was that was really it kinda it did fall as sort of linear progression to a pyramid, which was hilarious to me that I don't even know how I got started. But yeah, I met a ton of really great people. Got close to them just by virtue of the places we went and going we did find a place to go dancing, if I'm not mistaken.

Rachel Elnar:

Is it the Jupiter Hotel? What's that bar in there called?

Jay Ganaden:

I don't know. It was a hotel. Oh. Seemed like a club from what I remember.

Erik Cargill:

Oh, boy. Was just down there.

Rachel Elnar:

Where is that bar called that everyone talks about, that seven layer pyramid? It's in the Jupiter Hotel. Oh, Jupiter Hotel. It's called like the the fig or the woods or the

Erik Cargill:

Want me to look it up? I could look it up.

Rachel Elnar:

I don't know if that was where you guys were dancing, but it would be big enough to pull that too.

Jay Ganaden:

Oh, you mean the one that's like yeah. No. There was a bar there that was like an an old wooden ski cabin.

Rachel Elnar:

Yes.

Jay Ganaden:

And it's like yeah. There's a hotel on one side of it. There's the drive through. And then the other side was the bar. It was like the dogwood or something like that.

Rachel Elnar:

Something like that. Eric will pull it up.

Jay Ganaden:

That was fun. Right? But that wasn't the dancing spot. That was

Amy Gustincic:

Oh, it wasn't?

Jay Ganaden:

Like, let's take over the bar and be obnoxious part. That was yeah. And that was, you know, just kinda floating around and meeting everyone. That was that was a ton of fun. Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

I'd say that having been through I mean, that's so we went through that bar and then and then, of course, we're kind of wondering where to go to next. Who was the guy that worked at Adobe? I'm spacing his name. Chicago works at VML now.

Rachel Elnar:

Mike Josie.

Erik Cargill:

Mike Josie. Yes.

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

Mike. So Mike, I remember working with Mike to walk around all the bridges across Portland in search of a bar that was still open. So

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, man.

Jay Ganaden:

I remember just campaigning across these places. It was before, like, I guess, Uber and, like, we're just yeah. Let's just walk. So, yeah, that was a ton of fun.

Erik Cargill:

Portland's an interesting town that way. I was I was just down there oddly helping a friend rebuild a cabaret theater down there. And so we were right in the thick of it. And, you know, I was there Friday and Saturday, super late at night, and I thought it was relatively tame for Friday and Saturday night. Sunday night was crazy.

Erik Cargill:

Sunday. It was just it was amazing. Just, you know, the the energy was just a lot more active.

Jay Ganaden:

Like, Portland in general? Or

Erik Cargill:

Portland in general. Just just downtown where we were. It's just the building we were at was is attached to Voodoo Doughnuts. It's the old Paris Theater. And, yeah, it was yeah.

Erik Cargill:

Pretty electric down there.

Amy Gustincic:

But I like that you bring up like Josie's name because like he's a great guy and I met him from leadership retreats. There's probably so many people like that that you kinda forget. I don't think if we if we were having this conversation, I would if we weren't having this conversation and Mike Josie came up, would be like, oh, yeah. I know Mike Josie, but I might not think like, how do I know him? But I know him from leadership retreats, there's so many great people like that that we know all over the country from leadership retreats.

Rachel Elnar:

I remember the president's call. It was on Adobe Connect, like, long,

Erik Cargill:

long And time

Rachel Elnar:

you would see all these names. And I was like, I remember that person. I remember and it felt like a coming together, or or you were just, like, getting to know people's names. And it really came together when we were in a leadership retreat. And you're like, ah, I know you now.

Rachel Elnar:

Yep. All right. Sister chapters. So a lot of times when we go to retreats, we are, you know, really identifying with other chapters. What were the chapters for you that you became close with at retreats?

Amy Gustincic:

I can remember. I mean, I think LA, of course, we had a good connection with. And then DC, which came from the president before me and the DC president. I don't know how they connected, but they had a good connection. And we continued that on a little bit, which is weird because we're obviously very far apart chapters and not really the same kind of community at all.

Amy Gustincic:

But that's what I those are the two that I remember the most.

Rachel Elnar:

And DC had a huge chapter at the time. Mean, they had a lot of members.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. And Chicago was always was always kinda to, like, the big the big chapters. Mhmm. San Francisco, LA, Chicago, New York. Well, New York was always did their own thing.

Amy Gustincic:

And that's what seemed to me like, New York just was like, we're New York. We're basically national. It's fine. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think DC was up in that list of big chapters.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. They were pretty big at the time. Because the experience was so different for a big chapter versus a small chapter too.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. But the small chapters to me were partiers. Jacksonville Yep. Huge.

Jay Ganaden:

Mention that.

Rachel Elnar:

Philly, man. These guys and Rick Prestiglio, like, hello. I don't even know how they're awake after forty eight hours and drinking all night. It's nuts. Jay, you're gonna say something about

Jay Ganaden:

Oh, it's just I mean, I was gonna I was gonna mention Jacksonville. Right? It was was it Varick? Varick. Okay.

Jay Ganaden:

So Varick. That guy was hilarious. Right? So he was also one of the ringleaders in Portland. Oh.

Jay Ganaden:

I just I guess I identified with him because he was a Filipino creative guy. Which is not a frequently occurring type of person.

Rachel Elnar:

There's three of three of us in any room. Right? Just that's it.

Jay Ganaden:

So that was funny. Like and and just I mean, gosh. The guy was limitless energy. And there's other people from that from that chapter too that were part of the unhinged part of the retreats. I I wish I could remember their names.

Jay Ganaden:

I can see their faces, but I can't remember their names. And then a couple as well from DC.

Erik Cargill:

I'll Mhmm.

Jay Ganaden:

I wanna because, like, they were I do remember them not being designers per se. Was it Emily?

Amy Gustincic:

Yep. Emily Carr. Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

And then, gosh, she was and there was another person who was like a project manager type of person. I completely spaced her name. Anyway, like, they were a blast to hang out with. And then who else? Philadelphia.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. That was one as well. So I and I can't remember the names of of those people either. I did stay in touch with a few, but and it just kind of in my when I joined Adobe, just who do I reach out to and network with. So

Rachel Elnar:

Well, the experience definitely changed around Omaha 2008 because we all got on social media. I don't know how you could remember any names prior to social media and photos because I can't. Like, I don't have a brain before that. But once you see those photos, you're like, yeah. I remember all these people now.

Rachel Elnar:

Yes. Bernardo.

Amy Gustincic:

I do.

Rachel Elnar:

Oh, Bernardo. Yep. Bernardo. Sorry.

Amy Gustincic:

Bernardo. Who's I don't think I know Bernardo.

Jay Ganaden:

I'm from Philly. In the Philly office. Like, was he was also part of that. So I was in like, Debbie asked somehow, asked me to be one of the 20 by 20 in the national conference.

Rachel Elnar:

Wow.

Jay Ganaden:

Bernardo was one of them. I remember. But, yeah, part of that whole Philly crew. And then I'm I'm seeing names now. So, like, Michelle Cooper.

Jay Ganaden:

What is she? Is she married or is married to somebody?

Rachel Elnar:

That is Gavin Cooper.

Jay Ganaden:

That's right. Gavin. Right. Mhmm. Because I talked to him when he joined Vanguard.

Jay Ganaden:

And then I'm seeing Kelly Holohan as well. She was Yep. Kind of a blast there too. So yeah, that a that was a fun fun crew. And I I I think I really wanted to meet people from Dallas and Austin, but I never I don't think I ever did.

Jay Ganaden:

Only because I have I grew up there. So

Amy Gustincic:

But I have a hard time distinguishing the memories of some of the leadership retreats with some of the national conferences because it's lot of the same people doing a lot of the same stuff. Right? Like, the drinking, and it's like the sessions and the creative stuff, and then the drinking and partying afterwards. So it kind of it kinda meshes together in my brain a lot.

Jay Ganaden:

Agree. Yeah. I think I only made it to one national conference. And I didn't make the other ones like GAIN or anything like that. But the national conference, was it Nashville?

Jay Ganaden:

It was somewhere in Tennessee. Knoxville, Nashville, something something like that. Memphis. Yeah.

Rachel Elnar:

Good eats there, I heard. Everyone's talking about the

Erik Cargill:

Yeah.

Jay Ganaden:

That was good fun.

Rachel Elnar:

Food.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. We took over that hotel as well, like Yeah. In the lobby hanging out there late.

Rachel Elnar:

There's something about the leadership retreat though. Smaller. Right? Only 200 people. And we all move together when it comes to bars and whatnot.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. Taking over every place Yeah. That we Yeah. So much fun. It wasn't

Erik Cargill:

it was never malicious. It was just, hey. We're here for a good time.

Amy Gustincic:

Yep. Yeah. It's just some bars were more receptive to it. Right?

Erik Cargill:

Yeah. For sure.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. I think, like, and you just wrote a post about this, Rachel, about like, kind of missing the times when we would sort of meet as a group like this. And I, you know, I think I see a bunch of stuff on like Luma and Eventbrite that are just like so technical focused. Right? Not that I couldn't play in that, but it just isn't it wasn't the same as like design events.

Jay Ganaden:

Right? And I I was proud of the fact that, you know, I think starting with Amy, we were doing like 50 events plus per year, which was just insane. Wow. But we met I mean, I mean, you ran the design leadership series, think. Was that or design lecture series, Amy?

Jay Ganaden:

And that was Oh, yeah. More in the Academy of Art Theater or something like this. Those were killer, you know? Like, it's more I learned about, like, you know, Stefan Sagmeister and like Alan Dye and like people that were just like legends. Right?

Jay Ganaden:

And that that we brought those in. I I I don't think we have anything or I haven't seen anything like that in a while. So I I miss those days. And in addition, of course, to the I mean, the party and the hanging out, and that was that was definitely an aspect of that culture. But I do miss just, like, learning.

Jay Ganaden:

I mean, I I learned a ton from those people, it it really kinda galvanized my path forward professionally.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. It is interesting to think about how the the the inspiration that we got as as young creatives from all that in person exposure and the difference now where maybe things are a little more democratized and you certainly have access to seeing and experiencing things in in a different way. But there I I think there is definitely something of value to being in person, even seeing, you know, things live on a big stage and impressive presentations and, using that to inspire what you're doing. It's just it's maybe something that's a little missing. And I see like, you know, I think AIGA as an organization is struggling as our all membership organizations from from what I'm seeing.

Amy Gustincic:

Because you you can get a lot of the stuff that we got from AIGA in different ways. Free ways, online ways, meetups, all that stuff. And so it it people do, I'm sure question, why do I have to pay to be a member of AIG when I can have access to all these other things?

Erik Cargill:

But then they're just drinking alone.

Amy Gustincic:

Without

Erik Cargill:

pay. And that's just sad. True. And that's so true.

Rachel Elnar:

I think back then, Amy, before and this is no slight for other types of designers, but we were all crafty. We all did design. We all did things with our hands. We were much closer in the way of how we produce and how we think. I mean, it just felt like everyone was makers.

Rachel Elnar:

Everyone were making things. And all the stuff that you saw at the conference or at the retreat, whether there were t shirts or pins or buttons, or, you know, you could see that everybody was making things and they loved to share that with each other.

Amy Gustincic:

It's true. And we would all get stuff and trade stuff and bring a ton of stuff home. And that was really the fun of it. And I mean, I just personally, I don't really know what the design profession is anymore. And you know, I've shifted the work that I do and I went back to school and got an MBA and so I'm not like fully entrenched in it, but I have friends who are teachers and we talk and I just, yeah, I really don't know what the business is.

Amy Gustincic:

And that's fine, things grow and change and evolve. But it is a bit of a mystery to me. Like when you go to design school now, like when I, and I'm old, so when I went to design school, like I knew exactly what I was gonna come out of design school, be a designer, work at a design studio. We're gonna do brochures and annual reports and logos and album covers, whatever. And now, like, as designers, you come out of design school, like, you make apps, I guess.

Amy Gustincic:

Is that what you aspire to? I don't know.

Jay Ganaden:

Multi channel experiences.

Amy Gustincic:

Oh, man. But then then you see stuff like, you know, when you're just on TikTok or Instagram, people like make all this digital stuff that I'm like, it would take me so long to put that together. And they're just like able to create that on their phone with their fingertips. And and in that way, like, it's super cool. But again, I like don't know.

Amy Gustincic:

Aside from, I guess, influencer, are you an influencer or you're an app maker? I don't know.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, again, the tools are much more accessible and so we're no longer as close in terms of what we create. It's just open to everybody.

Amy Gustincic:

Which I think is great. Ayusa definitely, again, came from a time when it was like, okay, we're designers. We're elevated and separate. Would never like you get you talk to the client, and then you go away, and you work in secret, and then you come back, you're like, here it is. Yeah.

Amy Gustincic:

And you would never invite the the client into that process. But now, I mean, personally, I'm just much more collaborative and I can see the value. Like, we all bring everybody together for that stuff. And I think that's that's amazing. And the fact that, like, you can I mean, I know I'm talking to some Adobe people here, but, like, the fact that you can have all these tools and do all this stuff so easily, it really does make it so accessible for so many people, which I think is amazing?

Amy Gustincic:

I think it's awesome.

Rachel Elnar:

And not, just saying. I mean, you know, for those who really love the craft and who understand how humans read and absorb information, I mean, there's shit out there that's just, what? What is it? Just because you could doesn't mean you should have, but I I don't know. Just yeah.

Rachel Elnar:

Creativity for all, Jay.

Jay Ganaden:

It's creativity for all. Thank you. Creativity for. No. I think what's it's interesting you're talking about design school.

Jay Ganaden:

My daughter, who was maybe that was why I was not out as much at the two thousand six retreat because she was months weeks old.

Amy Gustincic:

I remember the first time you brought her in the carriage to an a little AIGA event. We were all so excited to meet her.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. Yeah. So, but now and now she's in her sophomore year. She's just like tomorrow, she wraps up her like fall semester in graphic design at Virginia Commonwealth. So Wow.

Jay Ganaden:

Yeah. And pulling a four o. But just on the on the on the notion of the work, I can say she's she she calls me all the time and she's like asking about, you know, just some art direction, mixing fonts, like composition of things, like so she and she's still making stuff. Right? But she also makes different things.

Jay Ganaden:

Right? So she she came up in that sort of TikTok generation. And so she has a job on campus where she makes videos, shoots videos of herself, showing people around. It's the division of student affairs, right? So she's shooting video, editing the video, publishing it, Right?

Jay Ganaden:

Still, I mean, there's still text that is included or and and typography that's part of it and and color blocks or just things that she'll do with the intro and outro of things that still require design. But you're right. I mean, there's like this aspect of making things and the things that we make are not necessarily static. It could be videos and then also the sort of editing and the craft that happens behind that. So I think it's just broadened a lot now.

Jay Ganaden:

And yeah, to them it's second nature and they grew up with touch devices and all of that. So I think it's encouraging that they're still learning craft and idea making, but that the craft too has evolved.

Rachel Elnar:

Jay, do you recommend that she get involved with AIGA?

Jay Ganaden:

Of course. No. I Of course not be. Like, I mean, said like you need to kinda start thinking about, you know, people that are in your profession, pick up the lingo, all of that stuff. Right?

Jay Ganaden:

I think there is an AIGA student organization, but more than that, I think what I've been encouraging her to go to is Cannes. And because I think that's like, I mean, it's the Oscars of advertising. You know, you see a lot of really big ideas at work. And so I wanted to go to that just to see what that looks like and what and I mean, it's just it's a whole next level, I think. I mean, in addition to just being in the South Of France, but also meeting, like, chief creative officers of all kinds and even other students that go through different academy programs there and even, you know, young, you know, people that are, I think, just under 30 but have already been working a few years.

Jay Ganaden:

Like, there's a there's a good spectrum of of inspiration there that and and and really, like, as a as a as a big means of creating the briefs that designers are hired for. Right? Like, so just to for her to get that kind of big picture in addition to professional membership organizations.

Rachel Elnar:

I wanted to ask a little bit about what you're doing now, if there's anything that you've learned from your AIGA leadership experience that you could share with us.

Amy Gustincic:

That's a really interesting question. And it's it's hard for me because I am so removed from that experience. Just just it's been a long time. And I do think that it's true that as I kind of progressed in my career, also and my education, but also stayed involved in AIGA, I could see how I was contributing differently to AIGA. So I was getting different stuff out of that experience and moving from being an active board member to an advisory board member and moving from one city to another at the same time that I had just gone through an MBA program and was starting to work differently.

Amy Gustincic:

I think that's that was really interesting for me to sort of, see that cycle and and and how that all worked together. It's hard to really say like, oh, something specific from being at a leadership retreat, other than all the stuff that we've spoken about, the fun times, the good memories, the meeting people. I mean, it actually was important career wise to make all those connections and, have people that you can connect with in different cities when you're around. Or they a lot of people came to San Francisco and then write social media, cave on board. And I mean, yeah, half my LinkedIn and probably Facebook, which was what was the first one is like all AIGA people.

Amy Gustincic:

And especially when you're on a board, you know, people wanna connect with you. I'm like, I don't know if any of these people are anymore, but we're certainly connected on LinkedIn. So that's a good thing.

Rachel Elnar:

It's awesome.

Jay Ganaden:

So I think for me, I think the the the there's two aspects. One is I was career switching. So, you know, to get a sense for the business of design and, how designers could commission photography, that was a huge or where photography kind of fit in with, graphic design really, really was a huge help. And and then ultimately, you know, and even in the middle of my board service of six years, I I switched to design. Right?

Jay Ganaden:

So it it it did sort of put me on this trajectory of of my career that I'd never imagined. Right? So I I think, like, a lot of that too was just meeting all the people that I did. And I I I think I'd I don't know if I've I've said this before to you guys, but, like, I believe in this idea of making your own luck. Right?

Jay Ganaden:

So people believe that good luck is something that happens. But I I sort of believe that you can put yourself in situations where good luck can happen. And so that's one of the things that I got out of AIGA by far. Right? In addition to the just the connections that we had, over drinks or fun or dancing or whatever it or pyramids, whatever it might be.

Jay Ganaden:

But I did learn a lot from, you know, those 50 plus events per year, studio tours, like, the meeting design luminaries eventually kinda swinging me all the way to, like, I think I wanna do that. Like and I was just kind of in the throes of being bored with photography by 2,009 or '10. And then, I think it was through an an a, maybe it was a SF Design Week, studio crawl where I met somebody that was one of the partners of Punch Cut Design in San Francisco, which was some ex Razorfish people that that founded an agency focused on mobile design. And and it was through that connection that I eventually got hired by them. You know?

Jay Ganaden:

So I I think that there's again, you kinda make your own good luck, if you will. And I think if you're able to make those connections and kinda but do it in a, of course, a genuine way, then then lots of things could happen. And I think yeah. I think that's that's defined the career path I'm I've been on to to today.

Rachel Elnar:

Thank you both. I really appreciate you being on the podcast, sharing your insights and what what last memories you might have. Before

Amy Gustincic:

we completely lose our minds.

Jay Ganaden:

Time to replace them with new memories.

Amy Gustincic:

Well, I think it's really fun that you guys are are, you know, capturing these stories and delving into it because, you know, we we've all had a lot of fun at the leadership retreats, and we've all had great experiences and it's it's good to sort of have a record of that in some way.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. Before we lose them.

Erik Cargill:

Yeah. Right?

Rachel Elnar:

Eric and I have been doing these and people just don't remember anymore. I'm like, gosh, we gotta document these before. But I'm glad

Amy Gustincic:

it's not just us. What do you know what was the first leadership retreat? Do you know?

Rachel Elnar:

I think Richard Danny said, New Cannon, Connecticut.

Erik Cargill:

1978.

Rachel Elnar:

He said that was unofficial, but it was just when it was AIG New York before they became a national and chapter thing.

Erik Cargill:

And then and then there's a ten year gap to 1988 in Minnesota. So

Rachel Elnar:

That might be the very first official one. I'm not sure.

Amy Gustincic:

Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

Erik Cargill:

Yeah. And then pretty consistent all the way through to 2020.

Rachel Elnar:

So long time.

Jay Ganaden:

Oh, they don't take place anymore?

Rachel Elnar:

That's why we're documenting this.

Amy Gustincic:

Are you trying to like get someone to talk about like as many of the different ones as possible? Or are you just kind of just talking to people no matter where, which ones they've been to?

Rachel Elnar:

Talking to friends first and see what they remember. Actually, what I was really interested in is our cohort, right, during our time and what we remember from here. And then, yeah, going a little bit backwards and a little bit forwards. And there's not that many, but Yeah. I would love to get insight on all of them, but after a while, they all you know, the conversations sound the same after a while.

Jay Ganaden:

Well, it's probably like, catching up with RV. RV Raquel Santos, he was on the board as well. I think maybe after you, Amy. But one of the volunteers. But that I was catching up with him and we're talking about the old days.

Jay Ganaden:

And he said, like, dude, we are the old guys now.

Amy Gustincic:

We're the gray hairs.

Erik Cargill:

We're the gray hairs.

Rachel Elnar:

We're the gray hairs.

Jay Ganaden:

Because we're talking about the Michaels and that that sort of time of design. And it's like, dude, we're the old

Erik Cargill:

guy.

Rachel Elnar:

Man. I miss it. Yeah. Anyhow, thank you both again. We really appreciate it.

Erik Cargill:

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

Jay Ganaden:

It was fun.

Rachel Elnar:

Yeah. Thank you. Talk to you soon,

Erik Cargill:

guys. Alright.

Amy Gustincic:

Okay. Take care. Bye.

Rachel Elnar:

Alright. Bye bye. Cheers and tiers. We'll be back next time with more design leadership tales retold.

Erik Cargill:

Please subscribe, rate, review, and share this podcast with your creative community, design leaders, and friends.

Rachel Elnar:

Cheers and Tiers Design Leadership Tales Retold is a production of chapter two and hosted by us, Rachel Elnar and Erik Cargill. This episode was produced and edited by Rachel Elnar. Podcast graphics by Erik Cargill. Animation by Verso Design and Megatoe Design.

Erik Cargill:

The theme music track is Loose Ends by Silver Ships Plastic Oceans. Follow Cheers and Tiers on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube podcasts, or wherever you get your audio and video podcasts. Subscribe to our email list at cheers and tears dot com so you don't miss an episode.