Is Anything Real?

If you’re still optimizing Meta for views, you’re not running ads - you’re renting applause.

In this episode, Jordan Hawn (CEO & Founder, Hawn Consulting) breaks down what’s actually converting on Meta in 2026 for service businesses - and the finding that’s making “video-first” marketers uncomfortable:

Carousels are beating video for conversions in a lot of real campaigns because they do what most ads fail to do: they force clarity, answer objections, and help the right people self-select before they ever click.

But this conversation is bigger than creative formats.

It’s about leadership:
  • setting expectations that protect spend and morale
  • building follow-up systems that prevent lead waste
  • designing marketing that survives algorithm whiplash
  • and choosing growth that doesn’t torch your team

What you’ll get from this episode:
  • Why video can win attention and still lose the sale...and why carousels often win for intent
  • The creative structure that converts: hook → proof → process → CTA (and why skipping “process” kills trust)
  • How to stop blaming the platform and fix the real leak: speed-to-lead + sales handoff + follow-up cadence
  • The multi-channel mindset that keeps you from being held hostage by one algorithm
  • Why email marketing becomes the durable growth engine when paid gets volatile
  • The leadership move Jordan uses to protect energy and execution: better boundaries, better inputs, better outcomes

Guest: Jordan Hawn (Hawn Consulting)
If you’re spending money on ads but don’t have a system to convert attention into outcomes, let’s fix the foundation.

Book a Transition Leadership Foundation Call (20 min):
https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/foundation-call-20min

Creators and Guests

Host
Adam W. Barney
Adam W. Barney helps transitioning leaders navigate career and leadership inflection points with clarity and momentum. Author of Make Your Own Glass Half Full and creator of EnergyOS. Based in Boston, fueled by family and music.

What is Is Anything Real??

Is Anything Real? is the Reality-First Leadership podcast for builder-leaders who want outcomes, not optics. Each week, Adam W. Barney sits down with founders and operators to unpack positioning, marketing, community, energy management, and influence - plus the numbers behind what actually worked.

You’ll hear: a quick Reality Check, a practical Proof Stack (inputs → actions → outcomes), and one EnergyOS habit you can run this week. Specifics over slogans; humane systems over hustle cosplay.

New episodes every Wednesday at 12:00 PM ET.

👉 Book your 20-min Exploration Call: https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/explorationplugin-20min

[00:05.7]
Welcome back to Is Anything Real? the podcast where we cut the crap, torch the gurus, and figure out if anyone's actually converting on these ads. Here's today's hot take: Meta ads aren't dead, but most marketers running them should be charged with malpractice.

[00:22.4]
Joining me is Jordan Hawn, founder of Hawn Consulting, an agency that's been turning service-based founders into story-driven, click-worthy brands. He's got real world test results that'll piss off the video-first-only crowd and a grounded take on what actually drives leads Jordan, welcome to the show.

[00:41.7]
Yeah, thanks for having me, Adam. That was great. Thanks for the intro. Awesome. All right, well, let's hit the ground running here. You know, you're running campaigns across landscaping, wellness, construction, not just tech bros. What's in your playbook that's still working?

[00:58.7]
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. As you mentioned, we're focused on sort of the service-based industries, and that's there. And I think, at a very high level, you've got to start at the basics. So many people do not do a good enough job of just telling exactly what they do, the process of that, and what the outcome is.

[01:17.8]
And so, we always start with the fundamentals. Make sure that's super, super clear and concise. And that's a combination of obviously the copy that's used a ton of testing and also the creative elements too, as well. As you mentioned, some of those industries, obviously, the high-quality visuals are a key component of that.

[01:38.2]
But, it's also making sure we actually guide people along the path and hit them at the right time, too as well, which is obviously one of the most key important parts. Yep. And I mean video gets reach, of course, but I see that it stalls on conversions, and meanwhile, you know, carousels, especially the before/after formats, tend to crush it.

[01:58.9]
Do you think this ties to psychology, or is it storytelling, or just proof that gurus are kind of full of it? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's an interesting observation that we've come across with on the past few campaigns where, it's almost like the videos are such a organic aspect of the feed that people just enjoy watching them.

[02:20.9]
And so we have some high-end contractors and landscaping where their work is really nice, and people are just sitting there literally watching the minute or like the full video. Oh, that's great. And then they move on. Even though there's been call to actions, and they're trying to move forward with that.

[02:36.9]
So it's been interesting where those videos getting hundreds of thousands of views and, not as strong in terms of the actual action point where the carousels are getting significantly less, but because of the process and actually the engagement of going through, reading, learning more.

[02:57.2]
If you're taking that action, then from a psychological aspect, to me, that's like, well, you're interested, you're engaged. And they actually lead to way more direct, qualified leads, at least. And some of the most recent campaigns. Now, obviously, that varies, industry, size of company, a variety of different things, but that's what we've seen, at least in our area here.

[03:19.5]
I'm based in Ottawa, Canada. Right, right. And I mean, I'd love to go from there, Jordan, and say, let's call it. Why do you think so many marketers are still obsessed with the concept of viral video when carousels are quietly printing leads?

[03:36.2]
Yeah, that's always something that is, you know, what people would love to just always obtain. Ultimately, it seems to be like, that is like, if I'm gonna do this, like, how do we reach, you know, millions and millions of people.

[03:52.3]
Everyone's hoping to do something. And I think a lot of times this may be a bit more on the organic content, where people are just trying to be controversial, to get that sort of viral moment rather than focus on what actually works.

[04:08.3]
In terms of the advertising side, I think for any of those videos that could go viral, again, that is more of what's unique, what's creative, and you see bigger brands, obviously, you're thinking outside the box for something that's much more different. But if you're an SMB, trying to create those viral videos can be a big waste of time, while you just focus on the fundamentals and doing those better.

[04:32.5]
And then you would ultimately get more business. So that's sort of, I guess, my perspective, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I mean, I've seen it time and time again across my career, in managing $100 million+ in paid ad spend. You know, clicks don't necessarily equal customers, and that gap is where most ad dollars tend to go to die.

[04:53.5]
Yeah, absolutely. And that's a big part of what we do is sort of, you know, what is the full sales cycle, and actually conversations with their sales team on, okay, you know, we know we brought in 70 new leads this month. How many of those did you actually react to quickly?

[05:10.6]
Did you have conversations? What was the follow-up like? What were the questions like? So that we can actually continuously change over that campaign in terms of what communications are we putting out to make sure we overcome these objections that are coming to you? Oh, we're getting very certain, particular, certain leads that are coming in.

[05:30.2]
How do we shift to get a different kind of quality lead there too, as well? So I have a big sales background. You know, I worked in the NHL, the Ottawa Senators, in sales. And so to me it's, as you mentioned, you can get hundreds and hundreds of people to actually, you know, be qualified leads.

[05:48.5]
But how many of those are converting? And that is really the end aspect. So that's why we take sort of that full approach, I'll say, from start to finish, because otherwise clients don't care how many leads are coming in because they're not bringing cash to their dollar.

[06:04.2]
Right. And I know you've also said, you know, Facebook, at least in your world, is still ROI positive for quality leads, I think that tends to really fly in the face of what everybody talks about with platform fatigue and that narrative. What's driving that for you?

[06:20.2]
What are you doing different, or what's the approach that's different there? Yeah, for sure. I think it's, from my perspective anyway, it's a funny platform because I find, obviously, the younger generations, even myself, I barely go on it except if I want to check someone's birthday or see what my cousins are doing.

[06:41.9]
But, in terms of the ad spend, it's just the return on whatever that investment is seems to be significantly more than some other channels. And to me, that stems into, well, almost everyone or a vast majority of people are actually users, but it's more of, how many people are seeing that and engaging on that.

[07:03.2]
And then that also ties in directly to the significant amount of testing that goes both on any Facebook or Instagram. And so you're reaching different audiences, and different channels, and you have different ad types, based off of each channel that's there. But to me, it's sort of the cost and the investment, where we have some people that are spending only a couple thousand dollars a month, not significant, but, you know, they're able to get a really strong return off of those platforms.

[07:29.6]
Where I can't say the same, you know, if we're focusing on LinkedIn, or other channels, or whatever that may be, in terms of ad spend. So that's how I've seen it. And again, it's very particular to the types of clients we're dealing with. But that's just the most recent campaigns we've been doing.

[07:46.4]
Right. And I mean, I guess, in that sort of exploration, you know we're in a different world, where 10, 15 years ago, you could drop $50 a month through Google Ads. In the modern world where we are now, you know, when you test formats, rather, how do you balance, let's be creative with the pressure to actually deliver results?

[08:08.2]
Yeah, no, that's a good question. And yeah, at some point, it was pretty easy to just get out there and get a ton of engagement and views, and it has gotten more challenging, and also more, I'll say, competitive, and you know ad fatigue is definitely a huge thing.

[08:25.8]
And so, as we look at that, the first bit is, like, I'm a big fan of obviously a multi channel approach, in terms of everything we're doing. So if we're running this campaign, we know there's Google, there's Meta, the email aspect that's being done both on any automation funnels we're doing, as well as any promotion with their existing lists, as well as any, I'll say community-based engagement, obviously, any organic content, whether that's long form, short form on social.

[08:54.4]
So we always take a bigger holistic view on all of this stuff. And so to me, I think that's part of it. You can't rely on just one channel to ultimately get all of the results that you want because there can be a significant shift in that channel, and you know, there goes vast majority of your leads.

[09:13.3]
The amount of people I've heard that just focused on Instagram, and then they got hacked, or that the algorithm changed, or you know, and they're having negative results. And so you have to have a bigger approach with that, and that's where doing that, having multiple channels, and testing accordingly on an ongoing basis, I think, is really important.

[09:37.0]
And that's sort of how our approach is. Yeah, I mean, I love that warning against doubling down on one single channel, and sort of getting into why multi-channel is really a non-negotiable these days. Because marketing isn't about feeding the algorithms anymore, it's about engineering, what I see is, a funnel that still works when our favorite name there in that Meta world, Zuck, flips a switch or changes something.

[10:04.3]
Yeah, absolutely. I also know you're a dad, with a little over a one-year-old, you're running an agency, you're managing a team. Be real. What's keeping you sane? And are you sleeping at all these days? Sleeping's okay.

[10:21.3]
Yeah, obviously I've got, you know, my great wife, who's very patient. And I've got a great team, too, and very supportive staff, and good family and friends. So, you know, obviously all of that is, you know, the network and the people you surround yourself with is, you know, know what is the most important, and those things that make sure that, you know, after long days that are tough, that you've got that support network.

[10:47.9]
So that's definitely it. You know, I am a musician too, so I've played guitar for 16, 17 years. So just going out and playing, hanging out, hanging out with friends, that sort of stuff. And I'm a big hockey guy. So now that's hockey season.

[11:04.4]
Just having a beer, watching the game with the guys, that sort of stuff. So, yeah, just trying to take it easy. Awesome. I know in your early career days, you wore every hat, right? Designer, strategist, ad ops therapist for clients.

[11:20.6]
What's the first system you wish you'd locked in sooner? Yeah, great question. And yeah, it was sort of, hey, let's try everything and see what I like. Which is also a very lengthy process. I think, from my perspective, was probably the client onboarding system that we now have.

[11:42.7]
And so, the biggest importance I've learned is like, communication upfront on both the transparent approach on how things are getting done, what to expect, the timelines, and also making sure they fully understand what they're getting out of this, and what the outcome is.

[12:02.0]
That is something that we tackle right up front from the initial sales conversations, but reiterate again when we kick off a project, reiterate again after phase one. So it's something that you can't just say once, but you have to be, you know, pretty thorough on.

[12:18.3]
And unfortunately, I had times in the past where I had been burned. Or had conflict. And so I think that onboarding, client delivery system, you know, I was sort of doing it a bit more ad hoc, where now it's systemized, automated, structured, and that's obviously very time-consuming, if we don't have that.

[12:39.6]
So that's been a big one for us. I mean, I love it. You know, agency founders love that idea of scaling fast. But I see time and time again, they tend to burn out faster. And it's great to explore that vantage point of what most agency owners get wrong when they're trying to scale.

[12:58.1]
But, to get a little bit deeper there, how do you filter now for deciding what's worth your energy, versus what's just noise? Yeah, that's a good question. I've got something on my wall here. It's, I'll try not to swear, We'll bleep it out for our episode.

[13:21.4]
Yeah, yeah. Basically, if it's not a "fuck yes", then it's a "hell no". Right? And so it's something where it's got to be aligned to, like, the values of what I'm actually trying to accomplish, align to my priorities. Okay, what am I trying to do this quarter, or this month, or this week?

[13:39.9]
And just be very cautious with my time. And so that has been more and more structured with that. And so, like, we've been very precise on our customers, as well. So I only take on a certain amount of clients at a time. We're not trying to take on 50 projects, get overwhelmed, get burnt out.

[13:59.3]
And so we're very precise on that to make sure that the quality's there, the service is there, and that my team has a good balance. And so, yeah, to me, it's gotta be something that's, you know, really, really interesting, and aligns with what we're trying to do, to say yes, and, yeah, you have to say no to certain projects or certain people.

[14:19.3]
It's not a good fit. Or the one that comes up all the time. is like different partnerships. People want to partner with you on different things. But, yeah, and that's where, unfortunately, some people can be a bit selfish. And, you know, you sort of have to say, okay, why am I doing this?

[14:35.4]
Why is this benefit for my business, and what I'm trying to accomplish? So, yeah, just being a bit more specific on any of those actions, even if they seem small. It's like you only have so much time, and you gotta be really, really refined in that. I love it. You know, going back into marketing a little bit here, though, you've got a unique set of clients, of course, Jordan, that you really specialize and have niched directly, but also niche sideways into.

[15:02.3]
What do you see from that perspective as an underrated tool or tactic that's moving the needle? Or say, for instance, Meta just shuts down tomorrow. What's the backup plan? Like, what's the alternative? Yeah, for sure. I'm sure I'd get some interesting calls from clients if that happened.

[15:19.2]
But yeah, I think for me, I'm still very, like, very strongly on any email marketing. The return on what we've seen there is significant versus the investment, both from any automation flows that we have, to re-engagement with lost customers, to even just more on a promotion of the offers or different things that are there.

[15:49.7]
So that has been like very, very strong. And that's ultimately, once we get someone from those leads, we're getting them into those funnels or having them, we're tracking them and we're staying connected with them through email. And that's converted a ton of business for our clients.

[16:07.5]
And I know many people would agree, a lot of people would disagree in there, focus on that. But to me, that's been like a fundamental system for everything we do. So that would definitely be the short-term backup. But obviously, you've got to drive people and grow that list if you don't have it.

[16:24.4]
But I'm working with clients that have tens of thousands of emails. And so there's lots of opportunities there to drive qualified leads that they're looking for. And so that's really, we've, we've had some good success in building those up, through obviously, different lead magnets, different events, different assets, to get that email list.

[16:48.0]
But then once we've gotten that, or we've gotten to that point, we've got a really good structure too. So I would definitely be leaning on that. But again, we got to figure out how to get people there and you know, if all ads disappeared, it's, you know, who are your strategic partners, who are your referrals, who are your community?

[17:06.0]
How can I connect with people? How can we double down more on organic stuff to get that reach? But yeah, that's sort of how I would approach it. It almost, Jordan, goes back to that owned versus rented audience sort of perspective. And how do you dig deeper into the owned audience side?

[17:24.3]
I love that. That's a great answer. All right, Jordan, this was incredibly powerful. You know, we went from Meta ad mechanics to funnel truth bombs to the real talk on scaling without losing your mind. Where can folks find you and Hawn Consulting online? Yeah, for sure.

[17:40.9]
Thanks again for having me. This was a great chat, Adam. So yeah, hawnconsulting.com, that's where you learn more about our services, examples of our work, who our team is, and so any service-based founders looking to consistently tell their story across their website and digital presence.

[17:58.1]
Yeah, happy to have a chat and dive further into anything there. And I do have a newsletter, which we have just launched as of this year called "Branding Small Business". Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. And so, one of the first steps in sort of more educational content we're putting out.

[18:16.6]
But again, it's geared towards those small, medium sized business founders. If you're a student, if you're just a solopreneur, and you want really actionable insights on a biweekly basis, then that's the newsletter for you. So yeah, just "Branding Small Business".

[18:33.3]
Check it out, and would love to hear any feedback for anyone that has signed up as well. Cool. And we'll link to all of those resources below that Jordan mentioned here. But you know, finally Jordan, you know, for the agency owner or founder who's listening, they're tired of burning budget on video views with zero pipeline.

[18:52.1]
What's the one move they should make this week to change the story? Yeah, no, it's a it's a great question. And if your videos aren't performing, then you've got to look at the structure first. And so I see a ton of videos that pop up on my feed that are just sort of, hey, these look great, these are great videos.

[19:12.7]
But what is the specific structure on what that is? And so it starts with the hook, it goes into overcoming what those objections are and the issues that they are right away. It's actually showcasing your process and having a strong call to action. That's going to be something that is interesting and valuable to who your customer is.

[19:30.8]
So regardless of how nice and high quality that video is, you're not following that specific structure, then that is where you're losing on money. So I would actually evaluate how you format that and then start at the beginning, and figure out how you're going to tweak that, as well as the end. But the middle is just as important because you're talking about all the problems that specific customer has, and also what you're going to do about it, and the results they're going to get by working with you.

[19:57.0]
Awesome. That's powerful. Well, thanks for tuning into "Is Anything Real?", the show where we sniff out signal, call BS on that bro science, and torch the funnels that don't work. I'm Adam W. Barney, and here's the kicker: If your ad budget feels like a slot machine, it's not your headline that's broken.

[20:14.6]
It's your strategy, as Jordan was just saying. So, fix that first. Jordan, thank you, though, for joining today. Awesome. Thanks, Adam.