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The Public Sector Executive Podcast is the new podcast bringing you closer to the public sector leaders in the UK. Covering everything from the environment to the economy to transport, our podcast will bring you the latest news, views and insight from the people responsible for shaping the country's future.
Like most forms of deprivation, exclusion, inequality, any of that type of thing, it's very subjective. It will mean something different to each individual that experiences it. I would argue that as with any kind of advance, societal advance, it's been an issue for, all aspects of life. Residents and theoretically, and users of whatever that service might be, will be empowered and enabled to use that in a digital way.
This is the public sector executive podcast bringing you views, insight and conversation from leaders across the public sector, presented by Dan Benn.
Today I am joined by Will plant from Cambridgeshire County Council. Will is the digital inclusion lead within the council. Having previous experience at Westminster City Council, we're going to be talking about the importance of digital inclusion and bringing communities along on the ride as councils embark on their digital transformation journeys. So, Will, thank you very much for joining me. Obviously, at first you started out at Westminster City Council, you have experience there, but now you're at Cambridgeshire County Council. How have you found the difference between the two authorities?
So I think there's a few differences. There's the obvious kind of geographical difference of one being a central London borough where the heart of politics and government sits. So there's always a bit of a spotlight on Westminster as an area. And then at, ah, Cambridgeshire County Council, it's not only that we're positioned within the county council, but as connecting Cambridgeshire. We also work across the combined authority area. So it's a vast area. It covers both the county and Peterborough. It's got rural areas, it's got urban areas. There's a real kind of diversity and mix of demographics, but also of circumstances, of amenities, of facilities. All of these different things come into play with being a part of the county council and working with the combined authority as well. There is definitely a difference in governance. Westminster City council is a unitary authority. It's fairly straightforward what they are responsible for. They have a cabinet member approach as well with their politicians as opposed to the county, which has a committee approach. But I think there's merits to both city systems. It is just a difference. And the other big difference really between the two areas, it comes again to, geography, really, but is the economy and industry that's present in both. So Westminster is quite a densely populated borough. there are lots of businesses there, a great mix of international businesses. There's a quite a high proportion of FTSE 500 businesses that have their headquarters within Westminster, or at least one of their headquarters within the city boundary. And then with Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, you've got lots of historic market towns, you've got high streets you've got agriculture is probably the biggest and the second biggest, or I'm not sure which way around it goes, but would be manufactured. So there's a huge difference there in the industry and in the type of skills required, I guess, for employees, and also the risks and opportunities posed by digital to those industries and levels of adoption and all of those types of things. But I think it's also important to focus on the fact that there is common areas as well. So Westminster often seems like, a glamorous area. When people think of Westminster, they might think of places like Mayfair and things like that, the very central parts where there is great wealth, but there are also areas with really acute deprivation as well. There's a vast inequality between those two and it's important to always recognise that. And similarly, in Cambridge and Peterborough as well, you have kind of Cambridge city, which is seen as the kind of wealthy, affluent area where a lot of that wealth would be concentrated. And then there's lots of deprivation and inequality again as you move to the more rural areas. And there's also deprivation and inequality within the city itself. No one place is simply one thing, is it? This mixing melting pot? So it's been exciting to get to know a new way of working. I moved to Cambridgeshire itself, so not only am I, a council officer there, but I'm also a resident. So I think that really helps, having a bit more of a personal passion then for working with people. And it's a good thing, but it's a bad thing because sometimes you can't switch off just out and about and thinking about what could be done or chatting to people and suddenly getting into work mode. So, yeah, I have to try and draw, the line.
I think that's a really interesting point you've made about the difference between the two areas as well, and the wide range of industry and the wide range of deprivation or, affluence in the different areas as well. And I think that really plays into the topic of our conversation today as well, with digital inclusion to move on to that. What is digital inclusion and how long has it been an issue for councils of all kinds?
So it's a difficult one, to be honest, because there's various definitions, and different organisations who work around digital inclusion will have their own definitions. So if you look at, the Good Things foundation website, for example, their sub headline is that digital inclusion is a social issue. They focus on their kind of socioeconomic impacts within their, ah, wider definition. Last year, the House of Lords communications and digital committee published a report on digital exclusion. And, They flagged within this that there is no typically accepted definition. M. And it's because the way that I see it is like most forms of deprivation, exclusion, inequality, any of that type of thing, it's very subjective and it will mean something different to each individual that experiences it. And I think that's always in. So we're looking to launch our connecting Cambridgeshire digital inclusion delivery plan soon. And we flagged this, in our introduction. There is no typically accepted definition, but that's not a bad thing for me. I think it's an opportunity and it's a great way to convey the fact that any kind of digital inclusion support needs to be adaptable, needs to be flexible, and ideally it needs to be place based, because that is the way that you ensure it's fit enough for purpose. However, if we talk in broad strokes to try and give the people who are listening a bit more of an idea, if they don't already, there are some key issues and barriers. an Ofcom have set these out, quite clearly as three affordability, access and ability. affordability, again, that's fairly self explanatory, but it's also hugely subjective. What's affordable to one is not affordable to another. And that can. Can relate to the next point, which is access. Because affordability can be the barrier of someone having access to a broadband package or a mobile package, or a laptop, a tablet, a smartphone, whatever the device of choice is. but that second point, line access, it's also about physical infrastructure. And that's what the wider connecting Cambridgeshire programme focuses on as well. Trying to work with telecoms providers, whether that's broadband, gigabit capable fibre wholesalers, mobile network operators to help roll out kind of future proof, reliable, robust, ubiquitous connectivity. So that access is an issue, will hopefully be eradicated from that work. And then finally, that bit on ability, that's more about, kind of skills and confidence. we always talk about it being skills and confidence in connecting cams, because often it might get relegated to just skills, which is important. You've got to have, the skills to be able to use your device, to be able to navigate the Internet and the online world safely. But you've also got to have the confidence to do it. Just because someone can do it safely doesn't necessarily mean that they want to or they feel comfortable. And for, any digital inclusion to be sustainable, people have to be comfortable and confident using the technology. Otherwise they will let it kind of peter out. And that's not what we want for our communities. In terms of the second part, how long has it been an issue? I think it's definitely before my time in local government. So I've been working in local government for the past four and a half years. I would argue that as with any kind of advance, societal advance, it's been an issue, for all aspects of life, not just for councils, but for other organisations as well, since it was invented by Sir Tim Berners Lee, really since the World Wide Web became a thing. And before that, technology was still changing, even without that kind of Internet aspect to it. And I believe this year it's going to be the 35th anniversary of the World Wide Web being developed. So we can use that as a rough timeline. Another kind of marker that we can use is the fact that, in 2014, central government published a digital inclusion strategy. People within the digital inclusion world and the house of Lords report that I referenced earlier from the comms and digital committee are, requesting a new, and have requested, and are still requesting a new, updated strategy for digital inclusion. And, I mean, it's fair to say that there are a multitude of reasons why that might be. It's ten years old. The world's moved on in lots of ways. Technology is still advancing quicker than ever. AI is becoming more of an issue, not necessarily an issue, but it's a hot topic. People are interested in it, people are nervous about it. And I think the way to destigmatize that, and build confidence is to talk about it more and to have kind of guidelines and baselines to use. We've obviously had, a world shift in an economy wrecking global pandemic that highlighted the reliance on digital infrastructure and the importance not only for businesses and the economy to function, but also for people to stay in touch. There was huge social isolation and loneliness throughout the pandemic, and digital was a real lifesaver for some people, but it also further isolated others. And there's some statistics I just want to mention here as well. So in that last strategy from central government, it stated that 2.4 billion users worldwide used the Internet. And that was with a population of around 7.2 billion globally. So ten years later, the population's grown by around another billion. so we're in the early eight point somethings of global population, but the amount of Internet users has nearly doubled. So according to Forbes, it's 5.3 billion Internet users now. So it's clearly becoming more important to people. It's clearly becoming more important in day to day life. And I mean, we can pick up on that just from our experiences day to day. I'm sure we're talking at the minute over teams, for example, virtually, whereas we might have had to do this in person. People will listen to the podcast using the Internet, all the way down, to really simple things like people might think that jobs that aren't within a tech sector or kind of tech adjacent sector might not require that many, digital kind of skills or that much digital use. But there's statistics that show that over two thirds of jobs have some kind of digital aspect. And I mean, I look back to when I was studying and I was working in retail at the time, and all of my, rotors and kind of holiday requests and all of those types of things had to be done on an app or on a website. And it's those types of digital platforms, I think, that people forget about a lot of the time. And the good things foundation also have a statistic that say 92% think most essential services require Internet access. So it really is becoming that kind of that fourth utility to have Internet access.
You spoke recently at our digital transformation event and, it was well established there that the public sector, or, local government as a whole is changing, as is the world around us. With that in mind, how important is it that residents are, brought along on the ride, that they're included as councils kind of go on their digital transformation journeys?
Yeah, I think, it's critical, to be honest, it's critically important because there is, I think I mentioned this as well at that conference. but there's already a feeling amongst certain groups that when I go and speak to communities and to residents, that lots of digital transformation, whether that is from a council or whether it's from another service that they use, for example a bank or, their gp, whoever it might be, they feel like digital transformation is being done to them instead of being done with them. And I think that's the major attitude that we need to try and combat, really, and we need to be really aware of that as local authorities to do everything within our power to show that we want to transform digitally with our communities. It's important from a residents point of view, because they have to feel kind of engaged, they have to, understand what's being done to them. But I think it's also really important for local authorities as well, because if we have good engagement with communities and we know what they need, what they want, what their biggest problems are, what works well, what doesn't, all of these types of things, they can actually help us build really effective and efficient services and reduce budgetary pressures, which we're all feeling at the same time, through getting it right earlier and having that kind of agile, iterative approach instead of delivering something it, ah, not quite being right because the engagement might not have quite been right and then just sort of leaving it out to dry in the world, so to speak. I think the other important aspect of this, and this is one of the principles that we're trying to establish as connecting Cambridgeshire, is that if councils can do their digital transformation projects well and they can do it in a cost effective way, and they can show that it helps residents become more engaged, it helps uptake of whatever that service might be, it helps for an overall more effective and more efficient product, then we can share that learning with private sector, with voluntary and community sectors, with anyone who's delivering anything that's kind of resident facing. And it will be broadly good for business because residents will be able to use services. There will be mitigations in place when digital transformation is taking place and is necessary, and residents, theoretically, and users of whatever that service might be, will be empowered and enabled to use that in a digital way and will hopefully feel better about the whole process. I think another key thing around this, though, as well, around bringing residents along with the journey, as opposed to just kind of doing it to them, is really early engagement and kind of meaningful consultation. Going in to speak with communities and special interest groups that are going to be affected by these changes and communicating with them authentically, saying, look, we know that digital isn't a cure all. We know that digital isn't infallible and there might be issues and things like that, but we are transforming digitally for x, y and z reason, whatever that might be, and then working from there and kind of co developing and possibly even co delivering solutions that are fit for purpose, really. And just that honesty with the residents, I think, will hopefully bolster reputation as well as resulting in really good outcomes.
You started to touch on it then just a little bit. But I think the main message to get from this is what kind of things can councils do to make sure that the maximum amount of digital inclusion is achieved, even those people in the hardest to reach areas with the worst connectivity or, the lowest amount of digital skills, how can they get reached?
Yeah, I think, firstly, just to reiterate, engage early and listen to what the communities want and need, use that as the jumping off point. I also think it's really important, we see lots of local authorities now with roles similar to mine, like digital inclusion, lead digital inclusion programme manager, whatever that might be. but I think if every local authority can recognise that digital inclusion is not only a huge challenge that needs to be overcome, but also a massive opportunity to either re engage the disengaged or engage those who have never been engaged and try and maximise benefits that services can provide to the public, then that's really important. And that can be something as simple as kind of nominating a digital champion. And that digital champion then would be a kind of ambassadorial role for digital, inclusion. So they can champion it internally, organizationally, they can make sure that it's thought about within every service, because most services will have some kind of digital aspect and even those who work internally, they might think, you know what? This isn't my problem. I don't necessarily serve communities. We've got to remember that our colleagues and staff, within local authorities are also a community. As I touched on at the start, I'm, not a county council officer, but I'm also a resident and lots of local authorities will have that. But regardless, your officers are a community of themselves anyway. And it's just as important for your officers to be digitally included as it is for the public, because then your officers, in whatever they do within their role, can help deliver that digital inclusion. Especially so if they are front facing and engaging with communities. But even so, otherwise alongside that, the obvious thing is that we would want all local authorities to invest in digital inclusion. That could be investments through creation of a job role for a digital inclusion lead someone to tie all the strings together. For example, my role in connecting Cambridgeshire, it's not to deliver something that doesn't already exist. We have lots of great digital inclusion being delivered across the sub region, from a variety of organisations and from volunteers of their own volition as well. What my role is more focused on is trying to how do we bring that all together? So that it's a, coherent, cohesive support offering, but also so that those who are delivering that support feel supported and we can bolster what they do, and then we can look to work with them to fill any gaps that might remain. Other investment can obviously be physical investment, actually giving cash to digital inclusion, what could that look like? It could look like purchasing devices that can be loaned and gifted to residents for whom access is an issue. It can be utilising social value from developers in your geography. A really simple, easy win around. That is, if there is a communal space as part of any housing development, then try and get that connected up with free public access Wi Fi as part of the social value of that building, because then there is a place that. That, community can access, at least investing in people to deliver skills as well. So libraries are a great place to do this, but any kind of adult education and alternative skills delivery is great, and it also has a wider economic benefit. So again, just going back to the Good Things foundation, their, previous statistic for the digital Nation, 2023 infographic was that across the UK, for every one pound that is invested in digital inclusion, there is a wider return to the economy. At nine pound 48, I believe it was, is quite significant. And in their current digital nation, they've said that as a result of digital inclusion support, there's been a 13.7 billion benefit to the economy. And it's possible to see those economic benefits on a macro scale, but also on a micro scale, because people tend to be better off when they have higher digital engagement. They can save more money, they can find deals online, they will save more on their utility bills, they'll save more on food shopping, usually, and they also tend to have more or better job opportunities that allow them to earn more as well. So, yeah, there's lots that local authorities can do, and it's never too late either. I think that, just because there's other local authorities that have potentially done it earlier doesn't mean that a certain local authority shouldn't. Digital inclusion is everybody's problem, but no one's responsibility, which is a quote I've heard a few times recently, but I really like the idea. We all need to work in however small a way to help close the digital divide. And local authorities have a really unique opportunity to do that because of their position, because they are a trusted face for communities, and because of the breadth of services that they provide, I think.
That'S a really good place to wind up. we've touched on a lot there, and that's really, really insightful, and I'm sure the audience will take a lot from this conversation. I particularly like the quote you've just used, that, it's everybody's problem, but it's nobody's responsibility. And I think local authorities, like you say, are well placed to help their communities with this. So thank you very much for joining me today, will.
No problem. Thank you for having me.
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