How We Overcame Addiction and Depression in Our Marriage | Pivot or Die Episode 1

Seth Kaser sits down with his wife, Lauren Kaser, to talk honestly about getting married young, walking through depression, facing porn addiction in marriage, and learning how to rebuild trust, hope, and connection one step at a time.

What is Pivot Or Die?

Pivot or Die is a podcast about the moments that change everything. Hosted by Seth Kaser, each episode features honest conversations with people who have faced major life pivots, hard seasons, failure, grief, addiction, burnout, relationship struggles, faith questions, career changes, and the process of rebuilding. Through real stories and vulnerable conversations, the show explores resilience, healing, personal growth, faith, purpose, marriage, mental health, creativity, and what it takes to keep moving forward when life does not go according to plan.

People go through this all the time. This dynamic happens every day. She's choosing this over me. I'm not desirable. I'm not enough. >> If I don't change, she's going to leave. >> What am I doing? >> Do I love porn that much that I'm willing to give this up? >> It is okay if you're going through this. >> How are we ever going to rebuild? >> It's okay to talk about it, you know? You're never going back to who you were. >> Just an advisory, this podcast does talk about porn addiction, depression, and suicidal ideation. So, if you have little kids at home or around you, wherever you're listening to this, uh maybe listen to this podcast later. Welcome to the Pivot or Die podcast. My name is Seth Kiser. I'm your host, and today I'm joined by my beautiful wife, Lauren Kiser. >> Woohoo. >> Thanks for being on the podcast. >> Thanks for having me. >> Um I think that this being our first episode, um I want to just kind of explain a little bit like what what the whole vision for Pivot or Die is. Um you know, we've been through a lot together, and um this phrase that has now turned into this podcast has come out of all of those trials that we've been through. >> Definitely. >> And so, I don't know. I mean, when you think about Pivot or Die, what what are your thoughts? >> I mean, now we have two kids, and I would say it's like we've definitely coined it our family motto. I mean, obviously the origins of it are kind of different, but it's both I mean, it's tattooed on both of our bodies, which is funny. Um >> It's covered up by my watch, but >> Yeah, it's like the reminder, I think. I mean, I feel like we almost say it on a daily basis at this point. There's many pivots in many different places, and I'm yeah, I don't know. That's where my head goes, I guess, now. >> Yeah, I think it's uh it's an interesting thing because most of the time it's like I'm sitting here and I'm asking these questions, and I it's something in the future just with the episodes that we've recorded already a little bit. Like, I want to uh I want to get better at like the conversational side of this of like going back and forth and making it entertaining and those kind of things. But, I think that um it's it's an interesting thing because so far like, I haven't shared anything about our story, right? I think that, right? And so, that's why I'm excited to have you on and not just for this to be a one-time thing, but like for it to be a you know, reoccurring thing where you and I get on here and we just kind of tell stories of our life because it's been kind of crazy. >> Yeah. >> Um and so, could you I mean, like start off with like uh what's what's been your life? >> Hm. >> So far. >> Gosh. >> Just kind of a overview. >> Yeah. Um I mean, obviously you know me very well. I think even when we met, I I've had like all of these different parts in my life and many different pivots, I'd say, >> Mhm. >> honestly. Um and so, quick little overview like 13 to 16, I was pursuing music a ton professionally. And >> before that? >> Before that? Where did I come from? >> Um I grew up in Kentucky. >> Mhm. >> You know I love to say that to everyone. >> [laughter] >> Everyone that I meet gives me some character points. Um yeah, growing up in Kentucky did the whole thing, riding horses, lived on a little bit of land, had a lot of friends with a lot of land. And honestly lived a pretty like, I'd say as childhood as childhood can get, like you know, playing in the mud and all those things when I was probably too old to, which I think brought a lot of imagination. Just when I think when you're not growing up in like a city or um you know, crazy area like we live in now. I feel like it allows kids to really be kids and I really got that experience living there, which was amazing. Um but from there, then I kind of, I mean, I was [snorts] always kind of writing and and doing a bunch of different music stuff. Um just in my room with my friends, you know, and my parents are very like creative focused. So, from there, I kind of had talked with my parents about like what if we moved out to Los Angeles, you know? >> you brought up? >> Yeah. >> As like a 13-year-old? >> Yes. >> Oh. >> Definite- I think I was, yeah, I I was 12 at that time and and had seen, you know, like you watch these shows as a kid and it's all Hollywood focused and you know, it's painted as this place. And so, initially, I I had no idea what Huntington Beach was or Orange County. It was like, we're moving to Los Angeles, to the big to the big city and I'm going to pursue this whole music thing. And um being the parents that they are and and they were at that time, it was like, we're not moving to Los Angeles, but we absolutely will move to Huntington Beach. >> [laughter] >> So, that's kind of how we ended up here when I was 13 and pretty much like head down, started down like the music path from there. And really trying to pursue that, which was crazy. But again, I want to make this brief. So, it was like I met you. >> have to make it brief. I think that it's good to >> Yeah, okay. No, that makes sense. But yeah. >> you in the music thing. You were 13. You guys moved out here. >> Yes. >> And we're pursuing that for a little while. >> Mhm. Um yeah, I I moved out here and my I call him my Uncle Matt because he's my dad's best friend. But he introduced me basically to this producer, super old-school, amazing guy. His name is Nigel Martinez. You can look him up cuz he's a rad like Motown jazz producer. Um and I actually ended up making an album with him out of just music that I had made in my room and had created demos and stuff. And um yeah, I I went on basically to make another album and then I did one more live album and that was like over the span of >> And were these like all under just like Lauren or is it like a persona that you have? >> Oh, yes. Of course, there was a persona. Um I I Even when I was living in Kentucky, again, where I'm talking about like that childhood as childhood gets, like that time that I spent growing up there, I genuinely feel like gave me the imagination that I've now had as like a teenager into adulthood. It's like my brain would just explode with these ideas and I was always um even as a kid, I mean again, probably too old, but like pretending I was a mermaid, thinking I was a mermaid. Like those, you know, things. So, when it came to like songwriting and all that comes with it, it wasn't just songwriting. It was like I'm going to create a character, basically." >> It was a Hannah Montana thing. >> It was a Hannah Montana thing, and it it really did, I think, allow me to um almost take on a a different persona of like who I was and am. Um was not necessarily didn't have the same attitude or like charisma that as the person I would write music as. And so, her name was and is Lukka, which is um it means bringer of light. And yeah, I mean >> K K A? >> L U K K A, you got to put a little like line over the U. I don't know. I had to >> that come from? >> I wanting to be different. >> [laughter] >> Like, of course. I mean, I wish there was a better answer, and I'm sure I gave one back in the day. It was like, "I'm sure there's some meaning to this, but there's not." It's like It's the same thing as again, you know my spam email is Lauren Christine, but it's not the way that I that my middle name is actually spelled. Um >> share your spam email? >> Well >> I don't know if you want to >> no, no, I won't. But but I'm saying like >> of it, yeah. >> Before there was Lukka in my room in Kentucky, there was Lauren Christine, but I couldn't spell it the way that my middle name is actually spelled. I had to spell it completely differently because I needed to be different, you know? Um and so, yeah, I think that that's kind of where it came from. Um and then it was funny because it was like right around when I met you, I was making the second album, and I remember we like went back and forth about like just you know, you kind of being like, "How are you you know, not super stoked about this?" Or like, you could not believe that that was just like what I was doing on a daily basis. Um and that was actually at the point where I was kind of like zoning out of Like, I kind of knew like this was going to be one of my last pieces of work at least as Luka, you know, in that that like R&B the music I made was very focused on like R&B love heartbreak, you know, all that type of stuff. So Yeah. Um >> But then once you met me you just knew that you were never going to have that heartbreak. >> Exactly. Oh, but we did. Oh, but we did. So funny. >> Yeah, we totally did. >> Yeah, I I did end up breaking up with him like one time when we were dating which is funny which we'll get into that. But just to then keep it going along obviously we can talk about music and stuff forever. But um Do you have a question or you want me to keep going? >> No, no, I mean you you can keep going but you were you were doing music we met and then it's kind of like we um you know, you you you kind of started going away from music a little bit more >> Mhm. >> and we ended up um dating like you talked about we you broke up with me. >> I did. >> And I just kind of didn't get the memo and stuck around and >> Mhm. >> uh Yeah. >> Clearly. >> Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. I love that story. But >> Yeah, we can tell that one too another time. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, yeah. But I mean I think that um you know, we then were seriously kind of pursuing dating each other and and wanting to go towards marriage and um couple years later we ended up getting married at at 19 and 20? 18 20? >> 18. >> Okay. >> He proposed to me when I was 17. >> That is true. >> It was a month before I turned 18 but he had to do it just because >> You didn't want me to. >> I didn't want you to. Yeah. >> You wanted me to wait until you were 18. >> Exactly. >> I seriously I remember getting that ring and I was like, I I had it planned 2 weeks from now. Like we had the date the the invitations for the engagement party had been sent out. >> Everything was set. >> it was all set. And I remember getting the ring, FaceTiming my mother-in-law and going there is [snorts] no way that I can wait for 2 weeks. I'm going to propose tomorrow. >> And that's a pivot. >> [laughter] >> That's a pivot. >> That was the first for one of the first pivots that we had. >> Yeah. If nothing else, that I mean that same concept then happened a couple months later. >> Yeah. >> When it was during COVID um we you know, had our venue. Everything was set in stone. We were ready to go. And then the world shut down. And then our venue was like, well, we'll reopen, but you can have your wedding but everybody including you guys have to wear masks. >> Can't kiss at the altar. Like mask stays on. 50 people max. Ceremony only. >> Yeah. >> Okay, well. >> And uh we just said, you know what? Let's >> We good. >> We didn't say let's pivot at the time, but that was that's what we did now. We pivoted and and figured [snorts] it out and um >> Moved our wedding up by like 3 months. >> by 3 months. >> So funny. We had to do everything quick. >> But I think that I mean even that stuff >> Mhm. >> is before we get to any of the hard stuff. >> Yeah. >> Before we get to any of the adversity. >> Yeah. >> Or um you know, the the trials that we were going through. But even still then it's like this mentality of just like pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot. >> Yeah. I mean I think the reality is it's like we're being prepared for things that we didn't know that we'd be up against. >> Mhm. >> And that's a lot of how I feel like we operate. It's like we really don't I mean I guess nobody knows until you're looking back hindsight and you're like, oh well, like this has been This isn't like a we threw you into the fire and I have given no preparation for this. It's like the Lord very clearly I think sets a lot of those things up mindset mindset wise, you know, so yeah, it's cool. >> Yeah. I think but it I mean I think it's a really interesting thing to me as well too because I feel like we are people that commit to things. >> Yeah. >> We're people that like keep our word on a lot of things and and >> Maybe too much. >> aren't just like >> [snorts] >> aren't just like I mean I I don't know I think in my mind it's like there's the generation before us almost that was like afraid to commit to any job or anything in hopes that in fear that like something better was going to >> Yeah. >> happen. But I don't feel like that's what what we've been through but I do think that we have been through a lot of different changes. >> Mhm. >> And it's a it's an interesting thing just to note that's like I feel like we went through all those changes just because we like shaking things up. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean I think that what we do like shaking things up. I think that that's that is the it's more with the positives rather than obviously I don't think anybody wants to shake things up in a negative way but I think the way it plays in when a trial comes is still it's still that same muscle or like part of ourselves, you know. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so we we get married >> Yeah. >> and um it was all sunshine and rainbows. >> Mhm. >> Um no, it wasn't. >> Yeah, no it was. When we got married? 6 months sunshine and rainbows. >> sunshine and rainbows, and then just the the reality of the situation um, I had a porn addiction for [snorts] years before we got married, and like any uh, Christian kid that goes into marriage um, naively thinking that all of those problems are going to go away I was greeted by the harsh reality that uh, that wasn't the case, and that when we got married um, that lust and love are different, and they're opposites. >> Yeah. >> And um, that was a really gnarly thing, because then as a uh, as a dude addicted to pornography as well the shame factor >> Mhm. >> of when there would be a fall >> Yeah. >> um, was exponentially more. >> Totally. >> um, now that I was married. >> Yeah. >> And so >> Well, and can I say this, too? Like >> Um, even talking about like lust and love, I think especially in the Christian space and and community, it's like often times we know in our minds that love trumps lust. Uh, you know, that it's better than lust. But, I think sometimes we discredit like the power or the the foothold that lust still then has because it they are different. >> Mhm. >> It's not like then once you have the love, all the lust goes away. They are two different areas, and I think like even at that time, like just being able to now you know, look back in the state I am in now and just be like, "Wow, like what different parts of the brain were using for to love someone, >> Yeah. >> to lust after someone, you know? >> It's crazy. >> I mean, I just I think about it even in my perspective like it it really is and I don't know that it's a cliche thing that's talked about, but it's like it does seriously feel like the two wolves kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Where it's like you're you're feeding two wolves and back and forth and it's again when you come from our perspective as well too as Christians, it's just like any sex or any sort of sex before marriage >> Mhm. >> is considered sin and is lust and feeding that lust. And um so we go into marriage >> Yeah. >> after me personally, I've been feeding this lust for my whole life prior to that. >> Yeah. >> Um thinking that then I'm going to go into marriage and now have God honoring >> Mhm. >> you know, love that ends up happening and it's like >> You're greeted with parts of reality. >> there's still a hungry wolf. >> Mhm. Yes. >> And >> That's good. >> I mean, that was like it was I remember it was 3 months of like awesome. Like this is great. And then it was like that wolf reared its ugly head again. >> Yeah. >> And then the shame with that was just unbelievable and so then going in, it's just like there's a and and every every dude that that has experienced this, every addict >> I was going to say, yeah, I don't I don't think we should just limit it to dudes. I mean, it's very real. >> It's It's everybody, but it's It's one of those things where just addicts know this well where it's like um you you get a taste of that thing and it's like the shame comes in, then it just sends you into a spiral. >> Yeah, totally. >> was that was when we first got married. And then 6 months in >> Mhm. >> is when um uh you know, during a conversation that we were having at night, I just remember it was asked really directly >> Mhm. >> where you were like, "Hey, like have you watched porn or like anything like that?" And it was like this whole can of worms that just was opened up, and like >> Yeah. >> praise God that it was. >> Totally. >> like again, every moment like that is one of those where it's like, "Man, when my sin is exposed, it sucks." >> [snorts] >> It's like It's like a vampire. >> But also my spirit is like rejoicing. >> Yeah. >> the moment that my flesh had dreaded >> Mhm. >> and the moment that my >> Like spirit. >> that my spirit had been longing for. >> Wow, yeah. That's good. >> And so we had that moment, and it was just really interesting because um >> Well, I think it's important to for me to give the context of like porn was something that I just in our household like growing up just really wasn't a struggle. I have an older brother, um and it's just the two of us. And so our struggles were in different places. I mean, like, you know, I kind of struggled with like smoking weed and that type of stuff in high school um a couple of times, but on the sexual side, that had just never really been a temptation for me. So, I think when that can of worms opened, it was so foreign to me. Um and the fact that obviously we had I mean, not obviously, but we had both praise God waited till marriage. And so this whole new experience that we had had um together was like, "Wow, this is so cool." And then it was like 6 months in. To me at that point, too lust, love, sex, everything in that realm, it's all the same. >> Mhm. >> So, you know, it immediately goes into the thought process of, "Oh my gosh, he's choosing this over me. I'm not desirable. I'm not enough." You know, it's so much deeper, I think, and that's the the clarification of like two people that struggle with the same thing um confessing to one another about what has happened. There is a different, you know, weight to it, I think. >> It's a different understanding. >> Yeah, it's a different understanding when you have no understanding going into it. So, I think that was a really interesting Again, I'm 18. >> so, yeah, >> [laughter] >> again. >> Yeah. >> It's 18 and 20, and I think that it caused so much hurt, you know? I think that it's it's I was just talking with Matt Heisler. He was um we were we were doing a podcast the other day. And I said, "You know, it's one of those things when you first get married, and everybody's like, 'Oh, man, well, marriage is just so hard in the beginning.' And it's like, 'No, marriage is beautiful and amazing, and yeah, it's an adjustment, but if you have this right mentality, it was awesome.' >> Totally. >> The thing that made our marriage really hard was my sin. >> It's sin in general. I mean, ultimately I met your sin with more sin. So, it's like it's not even just one person or the other, 100% like we agree. There are things that you did wrong, triggers happen, whatever, but it's like the killer of a good thing is going to be sin. Like, that's that's what it is, bottom line. So, yeah, I I don't know. I just look back on that, and I hope you know that. It's like, I appreciate when you own it in that way, but I also think, you know, it's important to note it's like it's sin in general. That's what's going to do it every time, you know? >> Yeah. >> Kill, steal, destroy. >> Seriously. It's what What devil is trying to do. >> Yes. >> A portion of today's revenue from these episodes will be going to Global Creation Foundation. They are our nonprofit partner here at Pivot or Die. Global Creation Foundation believes that music changes lives, so they bring music education to kids all around the world who need it desperately. If that's something that you uh want to get behind or learn more about, then go to globalcreationfoundation.org and donate today. And I think that during all of this, it's again, it's it's just important to note, I mean, we're we're Christians through this whole thing. We come up against this whole season where it's this this you know, marriage is not sunshine and rainbows anymore. It actually feels like fighting for our freaking lives >> Yeah. Yeah. >> every day and just trying to stay afloat and survive. I remember that being that that word in my head. Um and uh you know, traumatic things said and done back and forth during that year year and a half of learning and growing and all that kind of stuff. And I think that um we all that kind of happened 6 months in. We move. >> Mhm. >> We >> We love to do that. Speaking of shaking things up. >> No, seriously. [laughter] Yeah, that is true. We've moved we 5 years in marriage just coming up in just a second, right? >> five moves. >> And five moves. Is it five or six? >> It's five. >> That's [laughter] your problem. >> Just crazy. Woo. So wild. >> So, yeah, we've moved quite a bit. And I think that's just the nature of renting in Orange County. >> Well, yes, but also I will say every single one was warranted because it was very clear. And I'm not going to try to be like God had something better, but God had something better. >> [laughter] >> Like everyone was an opportunity, you know? So, I think it's Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm just waiting to see how long we're [laughter] going to stay at this place. >> Yeah. No, me too. >> but so I mean, we we you know, we go through this hardship. We're in the middle of a rough season in our marriage, and to the point where it's like like you're battling with depression really heavily. >> Depression is my um my instinct, it feels like. Like anytime I come up against trial, I've seen it now like quite a few times with some of the other stuff that we'll talk about. It's like that is my default. >> Yeah. >> My flesh is default. >> But do you feel I mean, truthfully, this is me asking you this question cuz I I don't totally know the answer to this, but >> Yeah. >> I feel as though I hadn't seen that from you until all this pornography stuff came out in the 6 months in our marriage. >> I mean, here's the truth. I don't think I had actually ever been through anything hard. >> Mhm. >> So, it again, I I look at it and I'm like wow, you know, I think for years I kind of sat there and was like, "And I'm depressed because of you." You know, like and and I remember feeling that way because I mean, up until this last year I hadn't really seen like a professional therapist. Um I'd met with like some counselors and stuff, but I think ultimately now, when I look back on even like my childhood of, you know, things that had happened and whatever, that kind of always tended to be my tendency. Like I I even have gone back into a couple of journals. I was like an avid everyday, every night journaler when I was a kid. And it's very clear. It's like there's there's an underlying sadness that then coming up against any hardship, it's like that is where I go. And and a lot of that, you know, even when I was younger, I think it's it's kind of because I never went through anything monumental in my life in a hard or negative sense. Um that I knew of at the time. It was almost kind of like any minor inconvenience, I could see myself kind of going there, if that makes sense. Like I can look back at that now. I don't think I would have said that even at that point, and so maybe that's why it was kind of the first time that it had led me into like a full-blown season of depression. But, yeah. >> But, can you talk about that a little bit? Just I mean, like what that was like? And I mean, um >> About that situation? >> specifically like, all right, you are newly married, you find out that your husband has been watching pornography. >> Yeah. >> And it sends you into a spiral of anger and depression. >> Mhm. >> And like, what are you doing? What are you thinking about God at that point? What are you thinking about like your life at that point? >> Yeah. Yeah, it was interesting because I think um even like I just touched on. I >> [sighs and gasps] >> I think it it really shattered me, which obviously you know, you know, and we've talked about that because I think um especially going into marriage and then growing up with a very present father. You subconsciously, I feel like actually more so you know as a woman maybe than even just like a partner. It's almost like you look at that man who is taking place as like the main man in your life and subconsciously I think you put him on a pedestal a little bit you know this is my safe place this is my protector you know this is my best friend like all of these terms that you know you hear newlyweds say all the time. And so when that kind of happened it almost felt like um for one because there were I think um you know some not not lies but I just feel like because I wasn't in the know 100% until that like six month point it just felt like the sky was kind of crashing down of like the man I knew and all this stuff you know and I think too I just hadn't been exposed to people sin in that way you know we were very much like mental processing family even growing up and confronting sin was kind of always like a if you offer it up or if you get found out that's when we're going to talk about it so I think the the discovery of like wait all of this was happening and I had no idea and it's so [snorts] connected I think to again love lust sex porn all being in the same category it just feels like this is so new and now it's like I'm trying to be so pleasing in this way and it all comes crashing down so I think like if I had to describe it now that's how I would describe it at that point though like freshly 18 you know having sex for the first time, I I had no idea what to think. And I think that is probably why I went into depression, like a full-blown depression. Um and and this is just what it looked like for me is I pretty much just did not know how to talk about it at all. Like because the mental processing I need to, you know, kind of deal with it myself or, you know, there was also just a lot of counsel I'd gotten of like, "Don't tell your parents." I mean, yeah. "Don't tell your parents. Don't tell your friends. This is between you and your husband, and that's that." You know, so with all >> a lot of There was a lot of bad advice. >> Yeah, for sure. >> as we were going through this. >> Yeah. [gasps] Pray for your husband a big one, you know, which is great, but that is the only answer that I was given, which I think is why >> You go and talk about this hardship and that you're feeling depression and that all this is stemming from this thing that's going on with your husband, and these women would look at you and go, "Well, just pray for your husband." >> for your husband. >> And it's like, that's the answer and end-all be-all to everything. >> Yeah, and I I mean, I think here's the big the big aha from this all now is, you know, we've had the pleasure of walking a lot of people through these similar issues because of how open we've been about it. And it And we need to be open about it. People need to talk about this. Um >> It's still It It's I love being open about it. All these kind of things. But it is still scary. >> It Yeah, it's still Yeah. >> about the fact that this is going to go out is scary. >> For sure. >> It's trippy. >> Yeah. >> You know, but I think that it's something that like you said, isn't talked about a lot. >> Yeah. >> We are really open with it, and it's caused a lot of people who've been through these hard things to um to come to us and kind of ask for some advice at this point and we're not experts on this whole thing. We're not perfect, but we've been through this fire. >> Totally. >> Like we have been >> Yeah, and people go through this all the time. I think that's also the other thing is it's like >> Like everyone's struggling either on my side, on your side. It's just like this dynamic happens every day. And so I think talking about it is it's like we're not you know, the odd men out. We're the ones standing up to actually say it is okay if you're going through this. >> Yeah. >> And it's okay to talk about it, you know? But I think it's interesting and and one of the things that I just kind of wanted to touch on is like back then obviously I I would have said, you know, uh, when I went to other people for counsel, it's like, I'm having these crazy issues with my husband and all this stuff. I look back now >> Mhm. >> and >> How would you phrase it? >> Well, I mean, I just look back now and I'm like, it's very obvious the cry for help that I actually was making which thankfully was seen by a couple later. Um, in like a year later after I had been walking through this, but it's like the cry for help actually became um, how lost I had felt [snorts] from sure what kind of happened, but it really wasn't even about that. It was then when you fall into a depression that is just like overarching sadness like all the time, everywhere you go, whatever you do. It is very hard to like see a light at the end of the tunnel and and that's where again, it's like I'm I'm very open about the fact that like I really got to a point where I struggled really bad with suicidal ideation. Mhm. and it wasn't again, it wasn't even necessarily what had happened between us at that point. It was like, I have no sense of self. I'm a shell of who I was and who I feel like I am. And there's like no point. >> Mhm. >> And so to answer your question of like where was I at with God, like I remember having, I mean, just like walks and and talks with other people and kind of trying to breach and open this subject and figure out why this was so hard for me, but I think it's the fact that I really did not feel like God was present at that point, you know? And again, we've gone on now 4 years since then to have so many times where that's continued to be a struggle of crying out, you know, like so many people do in the Psalms of saying like, where are you? >> Mhm. >> Where where are you? And I've asked God, pleading, you know, for an answer for that in in so many different seasons now. And it's just really interesting because his answer, I I kind of used to only think that like a the answer um, that he would give me is like uplifting and and and encouragement of, you know, how there's a lot of Psalms that that end with, um, but I mean, basically every Psalm ends with, you know, commanding your soul to hope in God and and that whole concept and I just remember that at that point in my life, it was like, that can only mean I'm sad and then I pray to God and then God makes me happy. >> everything's good. >> Everything's good, you know? And it's like, wow, that is the furthest thing now at this point in my life that I'm searching for. It's like the Lord, even if God just gives you that like one step forward um, sustaining, you know, sustainment. Is that a word? I also really love to create different words and things. But I'm just going to keep going. >> great. >> Sustainment. Um Is it really a word? >> I think so. I mean >> Sustenance? >> Sustenance? >> No, sustenance is like a sandwich, I think. >> But isn't that like it's that's what sustains you? >> Yeah, I guess. I don't I'm not really sure, to be honest. >> clue. >> [laughter] >> Sorry, I'm I'm going off about sustainment. Um but it's like >> But the end goal is not to get happiness. >> Exactly. Yeah. And and honestly, again, I know that some people I think would say, "But, you know, God gives you the deep joy and joy is this thing." But in honestly, in the last 4 years, it's like it's not even really joy. It's like God has kept me holding on and I think that that is that's like the anchor of my life, which I think is rad. But I do think it's also important to touch on like these subjects like that we're talking about now. It's like when you're when you're depressed, you're not necessarily sitting there and being like, "Um now God's going to give me this joy though that that gets me through the day." It's like I wouldn't describe that as as joyful. It's like God is like literally just keeping me at bay because if if he wasn't, it's like I would be so far down in the dumps I can't even describe. Like it's a it's a weird thing. It's it And I think talking about it that way, it's like it's important cuz I think sometimes um >> There's I think that it's it's like we think about um Ecclesiastes. Like there's times for everything, right? >> Yes. >> And there's a time for weeping and there's a time for mourning. >> Mhm. >> And like I I don't know if God if you're in a season of depression >> Mhm. >> I don't know if God is just like one day like okay now you're out of the season of depression and then and then like [snorts] like waterboarding you into this depression. It's like I don't know. I think that there's something to be learned from the valley and that's that's even like >> Um and I'm I'm getting ahead of myself asking this as well. I also think um I I'm I'm really considering breaking up the rest of our story into another episode as well just because this is I think our first main pivot mhm our first main pivot or die moment where it's like um I'm either going to figure this out and get through this or I'm going to curl up on a ball and die and you have a a decision in that moment and that's where the >> In the realest way. >> [laughter] >> in the most in the realest way. Honestly like those there I think that we all have moments that's just like this is far more than I can handle. >> Mhm. >> And I think that you know during this whole time and then into us having our son which we'll talk about in a little while but like like that stupid phrase forgive me but it's like that stupid phrase that's just like oh well don't worry God God isn't going to give you more than you can handle. And it's like no that is nowhere in scripture. >> Yeah. >> I get that you're just trying to you know comfort us but it's like in that season in our marriage >> Yeah. >> when it's like dude I don't know what to do what is going on. I'm sitting there in the in the rubble of what our marriage was >> Yeah for sure. >> and going how how are we ever going to rebuild? >> Mhm. >> There doesn't seem like any light at the end of this tunnel. >> what what point would you say that that was for you? I'm curious. >> I mean, I I I think that uh that concept of like >> [snorts] >> sitting in the midst of the rubble >> Mhm. >> is one that I've written about >> Mhm. >> since the beginning of that >> Yeah. >> whole concept. I think that a theme that persisted >> Mhm. >> throughout all of this and real quick, I'm going to go back to that, but I want to just hit the nail on the head for this um more than you can handle thing real quick. Like God never says that >> Mhm. >> in the Bible. At this point in our in our marriage and our lives, that was far more >> Mhm. >> than what we were equipped to handle. >> Yeah. >> We didn't know how to handle it. It was far more than we could handle. Where that that scripture particularly comes from is when God says, "I will never tempt you. I will never allow you to be tempted beyond what you can handle, but I will always provide a way of escape." >> Mhm. >> So, in the midst of sin there's never too much sin that I had to give in >> Yeah. >> and that's just going back to the point it's just like there's never like a uh man, I'm just like uh you know um there's always a way of escape. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Totally. >> And I think that um as as an addict and now even within like, you know, going through a 12-step program mentality and all these things, it's like yeah, it is admitting powerlessness. If you've ever been through the 12-step program or you're familiar with it at all, that's the first step is being able to admit that you have no power >> to um to change >> Yeah. >> of yourself. >> Yeah. >> You can't just white knuckle it. >> Mhm. >> And I think that for so long that you we we just get trapped in this um this bubble of repeating the same cycle over and over again um and we get trapped in a mentality, but really where the way of escape that the Lord might provide, it's not just like being able to like look at a drink and be like, "No." That's [snorts] not the way of escape. It's like "No, I need to call somebody >> Mhm. >> right now. >> Yeah. >> I need to get somebody in this room with me right now who will smack this thing out of my hand if I don't uh if I >> to drink it. >> to drink it. Yeah. [laughter] Like I think that that is that's the reality. Making phone calls, being accountable >> Yeah. >> um having people in it with you and not doing it alone >> Mhm. >> and finding the most giant flashlight that you could find in the world and shining it down on your sin. >> Yeah. >> That is the way of escape. >> Totally. >> It's not an easy way of escape, but it is a way of escape. >> Yeah, definitely. >> And but that is quoted so often to say that God won't give you more than you can handle and it's just like, man >> Mhm. >> in a pivotal dying moment that's what it is. It's a moment that's more than you can handle. >> Yeah, for sure. >> And I think that we've experienced many of those moments in our lives. >> Yeah. >> And that advice, I know that it comes from a good place, but man is that >> Well >> bad advice. >> I mean, I think again, it's like it's good advice until you're in a really tough spot. >> Yeah. >> Like it's it's good advice for you know, people that are kind of str- Again, I'm sure I said that all the time as a teenager. >> So it's like it's not really one of those things of like you realize, oh, this might not be totally true until you're like, >> [gasps] >> wait, I I'm thinking about that I always used to say this and it's like, wait, God would never give me more than I can handle, but like very clearly in front of me it's like a mountain that I will never be able to climb, you know? >> [laughter] >> So, I just think that keeping that perspective of like it's bad advice when you get to a point where you realize it's bad advice. So, I don't know. >> That's really good. >> Yeah, and it's funny. I think it's also cool, I mean >> You always have a gracious way of seeing the other person. >> Hey, and that's marriage. That's literally our marriage [snorts] right there. Um, but yeah, I mean I do want to say too like on this I think it's important even to note of like obviously we're going through a really I mean, not right now, but it at this point we're going through a a really tough spot. Um, and from there it wasn't really like remorse city from I think no, remorse is the wrong word. There was still an active addiction happening that then ended up leave uh like at some point I literally can't even remember where it was and I think that's part of like the brain fog and weird disassociative um, you know, parts of depression. But I we did end up separating for a short amount of time, but I just remember that kind of being and this was I guess my question of like when do you feel like you were looking around at the rubble of like just like what what was that point like for you? And I I want to get your perspective on that. >> Yeah, I mean I think that through the midst of all of this it's something where my biggest um disconnect right? Um, was that I I very much so live in the future a lot of the times in my own mind. And so even though, yeah, 6 months in um it comes out that I've been watching pornography and my marriage is no longer in a good spot. I'm like, "Oh, but I can see you know." >> Yes. >> I can see like 6 months from now. >> We're going to be good. We're going to be good. >> We're going to be fine. >> be all right, girl. >> Calm down. >> And meanwhile my wife is depressed to a point where she's having suicidal ideations. >> Yeah. >> And I just didn't >> Get it. >> I it it wasn't getting through my head. >> Yeah. >> Yet I would be able to look around and survey the rubble and be like, "Oh, yeah. We're not in a great spot." >> Things aren't going great. >> going to be in a better spot someday. That's That's where I would I would live. When we had our separation >> Mhm. >> was when it was like "Oh, shoot." >> Yeah. >> I don't know if we're going to be all right. >> Well, cuz I guess we should also clarify it wasn't really like an agreed mutual separation. It was like, "I'm leaving the house because >> because I fell into sin again. >> Yeah. >> And that was something that we had talked about. >> Yeah. >> And you were sticking to your word at that point. >> Yeah. >> And showing me, honestly, as somebody that had been addicted for a long time with no real-world consequences >> Yeah. >> that there are real-world consequences to your actions as um you know, pornography doesn't just stop with you at all. It is all consuming eventually. And the longer I I stay away from pornography now, the the longer the more days I have. It's like I've noticed seriously, I've noticed a re-wiring of my brain. >> Which is factual. As somebody that then, you know, was your partner through all of it, I'm like, "Okay, I'm just going to learn everything that I possibly can about this without watching it." >> [laughter] >> You know, so I went down the rabbit hole of like, "What does it do to your brain? And where does it, you know, and there's a new part and it's just like it's so interesting to kind of look up like all that that pornography really does infect and and creating new pathways in your brain. And then obviously the same way that, you know, somebody who goes through a stroke can rebuild new pathways and all these things. It's like you can do the same with um, you know, avidly watching porn and then avidly staying away from it. So, I think it's again so dependent on just like what we're consuming. But I also do want to clarify um a big one for me and even like a lot of the couples that now we've talked with over the years about this. For us and I think I think in any marriage of like when you're really going through this of like let's say your husband's an alcoholic, vice versa, your wife um, there needs to be boundaries that you end up setting for yourself. There has to be a line. Where is that line? Um, and so for me it wasn't just like, "Oh, you're feeling tempted to like watch porn again, I'm going to leave you." It was like I think we had set kind of some very specific like >> It was like, "No, if you do this again >> Yeah. >> I'm gone." >> This is where I draw the line. Yeah, and it heartbreaking to have to do that, but I'm I am a woman of even at that point. Oh my gosh, I was like >> of principle. >> I was so so devastated. I just remember like listening to this song on repeat. I can't remember what it is, but like that's what it took, I think, for me to begin to honor myself again to even the way what >> What song was it? >> Um isn't it strange how people can [laughter] change? >> From friends into lovers and into lovers again. Into friends again. No, no, no. I thought it was >> No, no. >> It was that one. >> It was that one. >> I thought it was that one of the girl that like goes >> Oh, about to lose my mind? No. See, I can't I can't I can't listen to that song without needing to badly sing like every riff that she does. >> Yeah. >> No, this one oh my gosh, I remember that drive like it was yesterday of just like feeling so like what am I doing? You know, it's not like I didn't go in with anger. I remember like kind of sobbing even as I was packing a bag. Like I think anyone who is leaving out of anger or, you know, leaving on impulse, it's kind of like okay, you know, that wasn't necessarily a boundary that was set. For this it was like clear communication and I can't remember exactly how all that went down, but I just want to clarify it wasn't like I'm leaving you. You, you know, like it was very much like stick to your boundaries and I'm very glad I did that. >> I can't do this and like we something seriously needs to change. >> Yeah. >> And when it didn't >> Mhm. >> you spent a couple days away. >> Yeah. >> Like that was something that was so again, it was just like for me so like >> pivotal >> a punch in the face. >> Yeah. >> And pivotal that was like a reality check. >> Mhm. >> Um and like bringing me back >> Mhm. >> to reality right here. Not in the future >> Yeah. >> that I was imagining, right? It wasn't going to be okay >> Mhm. >> if you weren't there with me. >> Yeah. >> So it was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There is some serious change that needs to happen." >> Like I think at that point you were like, "There's obviously something wrong." Like [laughter] I knew that I I think you did understand, but at that point you were like "Oh." >> Mhm. >> Like she's she's being for real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> for real, she means business. If I don't change, she's going to leave. And do I Do I love porn that much that I'm willing to give this up? >> Mhm. I'm I'm actually curious though because again, I think it is it's a good it's a good question I think for for people out there too. Like do I love porn? Like was that was that a wrestling moment? >> Not at all. I It was never like a "Oh, I like porn more than I like my wife." It was just like genuinely this is a It was when I was sad or when I was stressed or when I was sick or when I was like anything it was just like, "Oh, this is obviously where I go." >> Coping. >> It was something that was a coping mechanism. It was something that was Again, and and that's that's the biggest thing with specifically pornography. It's like it makes you feel horrible afterwards. Everybody tells you that. Everybody will Nobody's like done watching porn and they're like, "Oh, yeah that that's like something I'm going to go do in a couple more hours. Like that was great. It's like no like the shame and the weight of being like this is not right. This is not how this was made especially then you get married and you're like wow I do understand what sex is and how God made sex to be and then you're still struggling with this thing and there's just this disconnect. >> Yeah. >> That's like so this is so wrong. >> Mhm. >> But I don't know how to get over it and if anybody finds out >> Mhm. >> then my whole world and persona and everything crumbles. >> Yeah. >> And it's the only thing that somebody can see now. >> Mhm. Do you remember like the first time that you felt that way? Like if anybody finds out everything crumbles. Or what what people think of me crumbles. >> No I mean I just I I remember being like 12. >> Yeah. >> Being 11. >> Mhm. >> And like looking up boobies on Facebook or something like that. >> On Facebook? >> For sure. And >> Sorry [snorts] I don't mean to laugh. >> No no no but like like seeing these things for the first time experiencing these feelings for the first time and all that kind of stuff that's just like dude then getting caught. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And like truthfully like I don't know if my parents knew how to deal with it and I don't know if my parents knew how to discipline >> Yeah. >> in the right way for this or have you know if you find your son looking at sexual things as a 12-year-old do you sit down with them and have a conversation? >> Yeah. >> Or do you go I'm going to take your phone away. Don't do that again. >> Mhm. >> It's a hard thing as a parent. And I'm just like, dude, we we got two kids. So, I have no idea what that conversation's going to be. >> Yeah. >> But, um I I think that you know, it just in me over time bred this thing that was like, you know what? This this lie, this belief that was like next time I need to do it better >> Mhm. >> so that I don't get caught. >> Yeah. >> Over and over and over and over and over and over >> Mhm. >> to where then we get married. >> Mhm. >> And it comes up and >> Yeah, totally. >> You know, I didn't necessarily get caught, but it was like in a conversation we we talked about it and and at that point like I was open, but it was like it's still that same feeling of being like found out and all this kind of stuff. And it's like, dang. >> Well, and then I think >> process again of being like like I just remember after spending time away from pornography being like, dude, it's so odd. I don't have this looming thing that I'm hiding from everybody. >> Yeah. >> And that feeling so >> Like weird. Yeah. >> Just weird being like, man, I just I I there's this thing that I I'm missing having >> Yeah. >> hiding from everybody. >> Totally. Well, and I think it's it's interesting because again, even talking about that side of it, it's like so many people would describe it as like, it just feels like freedom and it just feels like joy and whatever. But, it's like I think if everyone is honest, there's always a little bit of like, no, it feels like something's missing." Because it's been a part of me for so long that I think it's okay to feel like, "Ooh, there's a there's a dissonance there of like, now you know, what do I do with that?" That's kind of interesting. And And again, there's not really an answer to that question, but I think um or yeah, but it's it's just something to be curious about, which I think is cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I think that um even in the format that this podcast would normally take on, we're we're talking about this whole concept of of having this pivot or die moment. >> Yeah. >> What were the things specifically, can you remember? Like, were there things that helped to carry you through? Were there specific songs or specific um specific conversations or books that you read or or those kind of things? Like, what what were some moments that you can remember that carried you through? >> Yeah. Um >> [sighs] >> I mean, the first one I think of is um just honestly, Janine Bishop, who is um one of my mentors, but especially at that point she was I mean, I just remember uh um her take even on just the depression I was facing, like sitting across from me, she just kept reminding me that um there's one tiny step of forward motion that I I could make in that moment. And it was always kind of different. We would always kind of try to figure out like, "What is that?" But I think when you're depressed, it's like again, you're constantly looking for like, "Just when is this going to end? When is this just going to feel better? And the answer is you're never going back to who you were. I am a completely different person um than I was before I went through that first round of depression. I'm never going to be her again. But in that I think was was a really cool thing that, you know, once I kind of realized and it it broke my heart a little bit of just like, what do you mean? Like I'm never going to get back to to who I was before this. Um because you stop looking back and I think that was a conversation It was an ongoing conversation, but it was always like, what is that next baby step forward? Um and what does that look like for me personally? What does that look like for us um maritally? Like it it's just kind of one of those things that it's really helped even frame, you know, I went through uh two more seasons of pretty severe depression after this and they both looked very different than this first time, but that thought I think has consistently helped me pivot from I'm living in a world of of sadness and dread and frustration all the time and a little bit of numbness to what's that one step I take in this next moment? Um and I would say yeah, that that's really what I've taken away I think and what I look back on. I honestly don't remember a ton of it because um with my depression came really, really bad disassociation, which is basically like living behind your eyes of like the third person view of like not living life through um like being fully conscious. So >> [laughter] >> I look back and and I just remember one step forward, one step forward. What is that step, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think too, I mean, obviously, I think it's important to clarify then after that separation was when you kind of like >> locked in. >> locked in, you know? And I I saw that even the action of that pivot was you know, like, okay, we might we might be okay, you know? We might make it. >> I think that that particularly like when I think about certain conversations or moments or different things, it's like I I can remember that conversation with Janine and with Chad at our house. >> Yeah. >> Um when they when they came over and sat us down and and specifically like when they asked that question >> Mhm. >> where they said on a scale of 1 to 10 where do you feel like your marriage is right now? >> Yeah. >> And I said, uh you know, I mean, we're Yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, we're sitting in the rubble and all this kind of stuff, but we're probably like a six. >> [laughter] >> And I'm sitting there. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> It's so funny. >> And I look over at you and you're like two. >> I didn't literally there is there is no chance I said two. I said >> [laughter] >> zero. >> No, come on. I really >> 100% 100%. The first time you said this, you you told somebody else and you were like, I said four, you said two. I'm like, oh baby, it was six and zero. >> That's right. >> Oh, which I'm glad they asked you first. >> remember I just remember being at a place that was seriously like oh like I don't I don't think I have ever been that low before. >> Mhm. Oh, yeah. >> And I don't think >> I remember that. >> Like, truly being like, I don't know if I'm capable of getting that low. >> Yeah. >> Like >> Which I think is still true. I mean, I think people are built different, you know? >> It I mean, I I I just remember being like really thinking like, okay, like what if like everything that I was doing right now crumbled around me and like, what if I was just like homeless on the side of the road and like, all this different stuff. >> I'd probably be at like a three. >> I don't know. You'd probably be at like a four. Like, >> [laughter] >> I just like, I don't I don't know, like >> You know, and just but but realizing like, oh man just because I'm not capable of being that low >> Yeah. >> doesn't mean that um my job is just to stay up at a six and like look down at you and be like, oh hey, don't worry. Like, it's going to be okay. >> You want a rope down there? >> And it's like no, what what Janine and Chad encouraged me to do was to be like no, Seth, you need to go into >> Yeah. >> that low number with your wife. Go there and rebuild. >> Yeah, totally. >> Um but if you're not there, then you can't uh there's no hope of rebuilding. >> Yeah, seriously. So, we got to get our kids. >> We got to go get our kids. >> We do. We've been talking for >> a long time. >> A long time. >> talking to you. >> I know. This has been sweet. >> Um I think really quick, the other thing that helped me through all of this >> Mhm. >> was um getting real accountability. >> Yes. >> And getting real community and people that were willing to ask you hard questions repeatedly over long periods of time. >> Same questions, same people. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Don't don't you hide. >> So, getting getting involved in an essay group, which is Sexaholics Anonymous, has been something that has been life-changing for me. And being around a bunch of dudes >> You read that essay book, man, and the first thing that [snorts] it says is um in that first the the preface says this is a common problem with a common solution. And that is being with one another. >> And that's why we're going to talk about it. >> Yeah. We're going to talk about it. So, if that's you guys, if you guys have been through hard things, if you're in marriage right now and you're in the rubble of your marriage and you're going, "Man, uh what went wrong?" And you don't have any community and you don't know where to go next, um you're not alone. And we are talking about all of this 4 years later, 4 and 1/2 years later, coming up on that. Um and we are in the best place that our marriage has ever been in. I love you. I know you love me. We got two awesome kids and we'll talk about this the in the next podcast. I don't know if that's going to be a week from now or whatever it is, but like we we got a son with special needs and whole [snorts] crazy different thing that happened, another huge pivot moment later. >> Yeah. >> But as far as our marriage goes, we're in the best place that we've ever been in. >> No. >> It's awesome, dude. >> And that all to say there is hope. And in speaking, if you are like me, whether you're the dude or the girl, I mean, everybody be struggling with porn these days. Not everybody, but most people. >> Mhm. >> Um you got to find people you can talk to as well. I think one of the best boundaries I set, to wrap this up at at this point, was I don't need It is not helpful for me to know every single time that he falls or is feeling tempted. Like my flesh wants to know because I want him to be perfect in my flesh. My spirit does not thrive off of that. Now I'm fine again. I'm talking like when you're in the midst of it and this has been a topic, find I'm talking like one or two people that you trust has the view of your husband, of your wife that will not be shaken. And that means a mentor. That doesn't mean, you know, yapping about it with your friends and telling everybody, "Oh my gosh, he's the worst. She's the worst." You know, I'm talking trusted people, just a couple that can help you be a confidant for everything that's going on in your marriage. So, you need to talk about it as well. Um and there is hope, seriously. >> What about for depression really quick? >> Oh. >> What would be if you were talking to somebody in the place that you were at? I mean, it maybe caused by marriage or not caused by marriage, but at a place of depression and suicidal ideation, what would you say to that person to help them get through that that pivot? >> Well, okay, I will say if you're at the point of suicidal ideation to the point that I was at, I look back and I'm like, "It is not embarrassing to call the freaking suicide hotline." Like we'll put it in the description if you need it, if you're struggling with that. Um when you've gotten to that point, it's gone too far. And I think that that's a huge note of like I just remember being like you know, the people who are really struggling with suicide often are not talking about it Um, the extent of like it's coming out like I'm really sad. I'm just really struggling. I'm feeling really blue today. You know, they're not saying like there is no hope and even though that might be how I feel inside, nobody can know that cuz I don't want people to be scared for me. But, you need to be scared for you and scared enough to be able to say, "I need professional help." [laughter] Um, and that's what the suicide hotline is there for. Um, and I'm sad I didn't call when I needed to. Um, and then for depression though, same type of thing. I would say find somebody who's gone through it. Find somebody who's gone through it. Find somebody um, older than you, honestly. Like I I will say people who have lived seasoned, full, hard lives give incredible, wise counsel. Um, and are often standing on the other side of it. I would not necessarily talk to somebody who's just going to like wallow with you. Um, and is currently going through depression um, just because it's a slippery slope. So, yeah, that's what I would say. But, this has been great. Thanks for having me on. >> We're here for you guys. >> Mhm. >> Like, subscribe, follow. >> And DM us if you have anything that you want us to talk about. >> Yeah, seriously. >> I guess we don't have an Instagram yet, but >> Moving forward from here, I'm going to be hosting some different episodes. >> Mhm. >> Um, you might be coming in to host some different episodes. But, the whole point of this podcast is to talk about hard things and those moments that we've all gone through where we have to decide whether or not to pivot >> or die. >> So, Lauren, thank you so much being on the podcast. I love you. >> Love you. We'll see you soon. >> See you soon. >> [sighs]