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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:00)
Hello Faith, we're back again to talk about consent. Do I have your consent to discuss consent?
Faith Clarke (00:05)
Yes, but we don't have to perform consent, but we do have to actually do it.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:07)
there we go.
Because what I was doing was very performative by design. But yes, there is a difference between real consent and performative. Maybe that's a great place to start. Like, what do you see is the difference between those? Because I think what we see a lot of very lately, I think maybe the Me Too movement, more than anything, probably propelled some of that forward is sort of performative consent versus what it really looks like. But yeah, I'd love to hear what you think.
Faith Clarke (00:32)
⁓ you see, thing is it's hard for me because I don't, I have disrupted my tendency to think in formulas so much that now it can feel quite complicated, but I do think there's a humility in honoring the complexity of who humans are. So how do we know when a human is consenting? It's not just with them saying, yes, I do, you know? So, and this, I, it's almost as if we become a little legalistic.
What's the method of making sure a person agrees? Let them sign the contract, let them say the things and click the button. When I think really the point of it is their agreement to engage. Not if a person has more power than you and has the power to reduce your resources and put you at risk and harm you.
then there is something about that dynamic that we can't just have you sign a paper. And so there is something about power sharing and there's something about understanding the balance of how power moves between people that's essential even to understanding consent. So that's the first piece. I think about consent, I think about power sharing, I think about power imbalances. And I also think about
how do we communicate and why are we asking for these methods of communication and ignoring the 80 % of nonverbal communication that people do? So there is a person consenting when they say yes and everything about them is saying no.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:09)
Yeah. And you know, when we talk about consent, I think that many of us, minds go immediately to sort of sex and that world of physical relationships, intimate kind of relationships. And because that's where consent is talked about a lot. I certainly talk about it with my son. think it's really important in that space. So I'm not minimizing it, but to say that consent goes well beyond that consent shows up in all the ways that we engage in any relationship. It is are we both in my mind, it's like, are we both on the same page? And it's
it's care and concern and continued check-in about are we both still feeling good about this? So in the same way that, you like you're saying, could, can consent performatively look like a girl of 18 saying yes to a man of 65 who also happens to be your boss and be a millionaire and she's broke and she's 18? She's legal, so maybe legally, sure, that's consent, but is she enjoying herself? Does she actually want to be there?
Has you know, is she worried about losing her job? Like there's these other layers that really reduce whether this is actually enthusiastic, mutually mutually enriching experience. And I think that that shows up in our business practices and everything else too. I just think about like people with large platforms who have a name, whether that's valid or not, that they maybe have more power by the fact that they have larger platform. And the way that some of those folks
Use that in a manipulative way to gain consent. That sort of like, so you don't care about growing your business. you do? Okay, then sign. So now they've consented by saying, well, I guess I do care about my business. I will sign. But is that really enthusiastic? Is that really mutually beneficial? Is that something that's continuing to enrich them? is that person then six months later or whatever down the road in that relationship checking in saying, has this helped you? Is this working for you? What would make it better? Right.
So yeah, I think those things are important.
Faith Clarke (04:00)
I like this on the same page and in my mind it also is, are we on the same page going in the same direction, creating the same thing?
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:08)
Yo, because we'd be on the same page reading the opposite way.
Faith Clarke (04:11)
We're just like, I, you know, and so just this idea that can we be in our conversations that we keep checking that, but our discomfort gets in the way, right? Because one, if I'm the person in power and I check, are we on the same page? When I'm going to check again, there's a part of me that's like, I don't want you to think insert thing. I don't want you to think I'm being too pushy. I don't want you to think I'm reading into things.
I don't want you to think like there's a whole bunch of layers of inside the person's story. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:44)
I'll add one because I feel it sometimes, which is what if it has changed and they don't like it anymore? Because this is my personal wounding around abandonment. What if now they decide they want to leave me, right? So if I don't check in, maybe neither will just keep going about and they won't leave because they won't notice or something, right? So yeah.
Faith Clarke (05:00)
Yeah.
What if when I say something, then it creates a thing that they become aware of what. And so a lot of it's not even about the actual things we're saying. It's just that we have discomfort. There is some opportunity to make sure that we're together and integrated and that discomfort gets in the way of us checking whatever that checking is. But I also think the discomfort of the person who does not have the power has less power.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:05)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (05:28)
also gets in the way. And like you're saying, if it is that you are afraid any at all of loss of anything, the discomfort that that creates rightly, I think, gets in the way of you're saying, no, this is not a good idea. Or even what are some of the ways that I can protect myself in this situation? Or how do I amplify my own voice? Like being unable or being limited in our...
ability to separate ourselves from our stories because sometimes we make it be about us. You know, if I were more organized, if I were a better worker, I wouldn't be thinking this way or whatever it is. We make, we take it personally and then make that discomfort be a signal that we're not good enough. Instead of the wise signal that it is that something is off in the situation and we need to do something to be protective of ourselves. And so I think consent is one of those places where we can get tripped up.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:09)
Yeah.
Faith Clarke (06:20)
by the discomfort of power dynamics, by the discomfort of audience, by the discomfort of reputation risk, and then we fuck it up.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:31)
Well, and I would also add, because the last episode we were talking about, you know, discomfort in these in work environments and consent being a piece of what can help to foster an environment that allows people to feel more safe to show up. Because when we don't have consent, when consent isn't when we aren't when consent isn't second nature to us, when it isn't just how we sort of show up.
then what it can sometimes look like too is we've now we're saying, well, we want to create this environment where everyone feels the ability to be more vulnerable, more vulnerably share, you know, to talk through their discomfort together so that we can move forward and not have it escalate into the kind of conflict that creates, you know, a cancer in this organization. Right. So I want, I want to create this environment where people who really shared comfortable be vulnerable and show up in the meeting and saying, I'm feeling some type of way, like you said, and
What can happen though is when leaders just sort of demand that versus asking consent for people to say, are you on board with this? What would this look like? How would you like this to look? What are the circumstances you need in place for you to be able to feel like you're on board with this? When people begin to demand versus consent into the process of that.
then that creates a problem. And even once people have consented in, where we're talking about ongoing consent, where maybe that day you've had a really bad morning and you can't be vulnerable because you will just not be able to function. And if there's no consent at every juncture, now there's this expectation, well, no, you've already consented into this process, so you need to show up vulnerably today versus saying, are you able to show up as your full self today? What would help today? What do you need now?
And then on the other side of that, when you don't feel that this is an environment with consent, you feel like you don't have a choice. And now you have to show up in a way that doesn't feel good, doesn't feel safe. You have to really do all of those gymnastics around what can I share or not share and what does that look like? So consent is, I think, a really important piece, but it has to be done like you're saying, well, and really be understood.
Faith Clarke (08:26)
Yeah, I think that, you know, back to the performance piece of things, right? Because again, 80 % of what we're communicating is not with our words. So I actually don't even think we need to have these conversations about consent every single meeting. Today you are not showing up, but do you consent, Viva? I think that there's something to be said about, especially if you are the leader, especially if you have power in the room, pay some damn attention.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:51)
Mm-hmm.
Faith Clarke (08:52)
Pay attention. We do this with our kids, we do this with our animals, not to consider people equivalent to animals. But I see human beings pay such nuanced attention in certain situations, and yet we are doing broad strokes with people in the workplace. So yeah, Becky's looking tired today. And I can recognize that.
And that might mean that her ability to insert whatever is different. If I need something really, really specific that Becky has already consented to, I might need to go one a ways and say, Hey, I, you know, this is what's going on today. is this something or not? Or maybe I just make the adjustment internally and talk back with you later. I think that there's something about really honoring people as they, how they show up.
That is about building an environment of safety and recognizing that people's consent is in more than did they sign the paper last year. And so there's just, the more power we have, I think the more attention we need to pay in the spaces that we are in because people will defer to us because of our role and not because of their own real.
kind of desire to engage.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:08)
Yeah, well, and exactly. I don't think it has to look like, you consent in this meeting today? Yeah, because I think it looks, I it can look like, are you feeling up to this today? Or like you said, even just, we talked before this, I know there's some things going on, you don't need to participate today, whatever it looks like, right? But I'm thinking of Zoom rooms too, just as a solopreneur and people who hold community spaces. And we all go to so many of these Zoom rooms and...
Faith Clarke (10:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:31)
the sort of unspoken expectation to be on camera that you can sometimes feel and the responsibility of the person who is holding the space, who has the power in the space. So again, whether that's a leader in a meeting or the person who's called people together into Zoom room to just say, you don't have to be on camera or you don't have to speak today or whatever that is, it's almost.
Some of the consent is permission giving as well, right? To say there is full permission here that I recognize the power structure and I'm sort of as the person who may be perceived as having the ability to give permissions lips, I'm giving them, right? For you to show up how you need to today. Like that's also some of that consent is by, it doesn't have to be explicit. Like you must consent to being on camera. It can just be, hey, show up in your full humanity. I don't know. So much of what we're talking about to me feels like.
we just honor full human, how do we honor our full humanity, right? That's what the consent feels like. It's like agreeing to, I will see you as a full human and I will treat you in that way. And, and I want you to be able to show up in that way.
Faith Clarke (11:30)
Yeah, I think as I'm listening, part of what I'm hearing too is the tension between signposting that, as in languaging it and not having to language it. I think, so both are essential depending on the situation, but I am cautious around signposting as performance because I am also aware that culturally.
the fact that I'm asking a question or even making a statement puts the other person in a responding position. That may be difficult for them if culturally they feel they can't, you back to discomfort. They can't, they don't feel safe enough or comfortable enough to say, hey, no, I won't or whatever it is. And I think that there's...
There's just something about, you know, everybody who listens to me knows that my oldest has autism and it's been such a lesson in what can we understand about what people are saying without their words. I do think that we are in the U S and Western world, very, very tight to the explicitness of people's words. And I, I just wonder if we challenged ourselves to know without people saying, you know, so that like people, you know,
people who are subject to the characteristics of patriarchy will say, she didn't say no. And there's a thing about use your words you didn't say, right? And I am so resistant to that, no. I use lots of words as everybody can tell. And also,
There's something about really honoring the way we know what's going on for people, even by zoom. Like I have been in zoom meetings and the emotion is so palpable that people are crying and they don't fully know what's going on for another person. If we could slow down and pay attention, we'll know what people are agreeing to. And that doesn't mean we won't make mistakes, but I think that setting the environment up by leading, by paying attention.
will build the safety in so somebody can say they can interrupt me and say hey this thing isn't going right and know that it's just because I didn't notice not because I'm taking their power and their their stuff away you know
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (13:45)
Can I share
an example that I think speaks to this and you can see what you think about it. But I went to a call years ago now and I wish I could remember who hosted it I can't because I tell the story sometimes and I wish I could remember. But it was the featured speaker in this Zoom room and it was right around, it was right after 2020 and sort of this racial awakening by all these white folks. And I had read My Grandmother's Hands by Resva Menneken and loved it and love him.
And I got this email about this event they were hosting that he was going to be the featured speaker. So I signed up. It was free. So it's not like I paid money. But even if I had, I still think the story would be important. And so I got there. The call had hundreds, maybe even thousands of people on it had come to hear a resume speak. The woman introduced him. She's a black woman. And he started they were doing a Q &A. He answered two or three questions. And it just became, I think, very clear to her and probably to other people in the room. He was tired and didn't.
feel good. He was really into book promotion mode. I know what that feels like now, like in not to his level. And he was just struggling. And I think he may even eventually as she said something mentioned that I had a headache or something. And she asked if he needs to stop and he said, no. So there's the consent piece, right? He's now said, no, no, let's continue. And she said, you know what? Let's not. You need rest. It's clear that you need to rest and you deserve rest.
And why don't we model that here that you need rest and could you push through? Sure. But we're here in a community and we want to show that sometimes when we need rest, we just need to take that. And hundreds or thousands of people who are on a call just to see this man and this woman had the audacity to let him get off the call and then continue the call to say, we're going to model rest now. So what we're all going to do is I'm going to play a little music and we're all going to rest because we all need it. And so the consent could have been.
He said, yeah, but she was able, as you're saying, intuit that he's saying yes, but it's really out of the sense of obligation of people having expected him to be there, of performance, you know, the publishing company probably wanting him, all these things. And she could tell the truth was no, he's saying yes, but he doesn't really want to be here. He's not truly consenting. And is that really consent? And it was the most beautiful experience to me. And years later, I still remember, I still think about, I talk about it all the time, because that to me is what it looks like to model what you're saying.
is sure, someone can be telling you yes, because this happens in corporate spaces all the time where people say, no, no, yeah, I can take on that extra project. But you know, they're tired. They've got a sick mom they're also tending to, and they've got kids in school. you're asking them to take on extra work, and are they saying yes? So you could go home at night and feel OK about it, because well, they said yes. But the truth is, can they really consent to that yes? So anyway, I know I just think it's a really wonderful example of that.
Faith Clarke (16:14)
Yeah, yeah.
I
mean, they can perform the consent, but is that really the thing that we want? What's behind the word consent? ⁓ And I remembered as you were talking, this story, somebody told me about attending this workshop, one is lovely kind of like theater in life types of programs. And this person, so pretty famous, large contract, was invited to do this program in a jail situation.
And his big rule is people must volunteer to be there. Nobody has to be there under duress. And so he shows up, he's there and within the first hour he asked, you know, how come you're here? And it was like, it's next thing on our schedule. And he stopped the session. And I'm in my mind, I'm just thinking how much money, if this is, I mean, for you to be doing a program in a jail situation, how, how much, what's, and he stopped it and released them.
and said, no, no, my program, people volunteer for, and he had made it clear, but here we are. And so after an hour, it was an all day thing and it was after an hour and he said, yeah, I'm stopping. And I think it was recommended.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:24)
Yeah. that's the same
as same as that resume story. Like it can come at a cost. It takes sometimes it can take courage to really create an environment of like true consent in the way we're discussing it. And the payoff, not that you should do it for the payoff, but the payoff can also be equally beautiful just in a different way. In that experience, I'm sure there was a payoff for him. Like he probably, maybe he lost money, lost the contract, but he the payoff for himself internally and how he feels about himself is there. And in the resume example,
What happened after he left? It wasn't what we were there for. A lot of people left when he left, but the people who stayed had an experience that they will never forget because we, the people left in that room shared, it was the most vulnerable and beautiful space of sharing about.
how exhausted we are, how tired we are. So many black women in this room feeling like they now have this sort of permission slip again to show up and really be honest about their own exhaustion around talking about these issues and all of this. now, yes, they need to sleep and what that would feel like to have somebody give them that permission the way that they just saw it modeled and what does it look like to do for themselves. So it was a different experience. It came at a potential cost of reputation and other things, but it was this most humane, most human and humane, beautiful experience that comes out of what
is what happens when we create that sort of a space where there is that level of consent and people then feel that and know it, right? And again, it wasn't like she asked the consent and then changed because she could tell that wasn't what was really happening. And so us seeing that model just changed, like it made us all feel safe to now fully like consent to show up, vote vulnerably.
Faith Clarke (18:56)
And I think just bringing it back to the whole discomfort piece is that if we're not, if we haven't created enough space from our stories, we can't consent well and we can't offer the space for consent. And we will stick with the discomfort, bring that into conflict. And there's a whole bunch of stuff going on in relation to that. And so as part of this whole
How do we create the environments that we really want? Part of this is being separate from our stories enough to be able to facilitate this, to both say, no, I'm not on this page, and to say, how do we be on this page together? Even though I have a whole hundred layers, I've been in that moment where I am just kind of expressing what feels true to me while battling the...
hear my loud-mouthed black woman stereotype where people are now thinking, blah, blah, I'm likely to lose this contract. The voice is there, and being able to say that's a story, even though it's a generational story, even though it's systemic, and there's data that supports it, to kind of be in what's true for me in this moment, and to lean into that. Yeah, it's taken a couple of decades of work.
It's just, to be like, okay. But I think that there's just so much power in being able to hold that space for people. And we don't get there without being friends with our discomfort. Without being friends with our discomfort, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:26)
Yeah. And that can sound so simple, but it's not simple. Like you said, decades of work, same here. It takes time to be able to do that, to be able to get comfortable with discomfort or at least be able to just even be with the discomfort. Because again, some
Faith Clarke (20:40)
Be patient
with it, be friends with it. It's comfortable, know, not all our friendships feel comfortable, but be friends with it, be patient with it, just be with it, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:49)
Just
to exist with it, yeah, I think to me that's the first step, at least for me, because for me it's like I do all I can to avoid it. So I just don't even want to be in the room with it. So even just learning how to be in the room with it, maybe on opposite corners, but we're both there, that's my first step. And then learning how do I start to now not just be in the room with it, but actually engage with it. And that is tough, but it's possible. It's possible. And again, learning, I think some of the consent piece of that is also really important in creating that kind of space.
Faith Clarke (20:55)
Wish you the best.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:16)
But yeah, thank you for this conversation. thought it was great.
Faith Clarke (21:18)
You're welcome.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (21:19)
Okay.