020 | Decoding Cocktail Bars: Translating Between Consumer, Bar and Brand | Part 1/2 with Alex Frezza from L' Antiquario (Napoli, Italy)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

This is the first part of the chat I had the honor of having with Alex Frezza. He is the Owner and Founder of L' Antiquario in Napoli, currently number 46 on the Global list of 50 Best Bars. He is a bar legend in Italy and internationally. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Main topics discussed:

From 0 to 1 bottle

• Understanding the thought process of a bar owner being pitched to

• The Wholesaler Paradox (Why bars have an aversion to brands without a wholesaler)

• The Importance of the Target Occasion

From 1 bottle to 1 case

• What attracts bar owners to a product

• Communicating your brand identity to consumers through bartenders

• Being approachable to consumers for bars and brands

From 1 case to 1 pallet

• Big brands vs. Small brands approaches

• Localization Failures

• Building Distribution Networks

About the Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Maffeo⁠⁠⁠ 

About the Guest: Alex Frezza

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Alex Frezza

Co-Owner | L'Antiquario Bar Napoli

What is MAFFEO DRINKS: Industry & Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hi and welcome to the Mafair
Drinks Podcast.

I'm Chris Mafair, founder of
Mafair Drinks, where we provide

the nonsense approach to
building drinks brands from the

bottom up.
I will be your host and in each

episode I will interview a
drinks builder from the drinks

and hospitality ecosystem.
In episode 20 and 21, I had the

pleasure and honor of
interviewing Alex Ritzer.

He's the owner and founder of
Lantyquario Napoli.

Currently #46 on the global list
of 50 best bars.

He's a bar legend in Italy and
internationally.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, so if you liked it,
feel free to listen to both part

one and two of our chat.
Hi, Alex, how you doing?

Hello Chris.
Wonderful in the sunny Naples.

Nice.
Now I can see that from the

window.
So I'm, I'm jealous.

Actually here it's actually
sunny in Prague as well, but

it's it's a little bit too hot
and raining every now and then.

So it's it's a bit of a stranger
but so this this episode will be

a fun one because I mean we've
met Atlantiquario or like a

month ago or something,
something like that, not even.

And of course we were speaking
Italian with trying my old

Napoleon accent from my origins
and and now we're speaking

English to each other.
So it's going to be a funny

experience, I guess.
Some Italian words might slip

here and there.
OK, so we prepared and there are

some some Italian listeners.
So let's let's start with first

of all is a great honor for me
to have you here because I mean

you are, you are a name in the
in the bar scene, you are part

of the top 50 best bars and you
know to get your insights.

It's super valuable for me
firstly and then for for the

listeners from from all around
the world to really understand

how do we play in this ecosystem
of drinks, hospitality

ecosystems that are crossing
each other and interwining and

then you know, and then living
sometimes their own life a

little bit Now.
So my first question is there a

lot of translation to be made
between the let's say the

corporate world of brands, you
know big names and and so on and

the actual hospitality industry?
Well, first of all, thank you

very much for inviting me.
It's a pure case.

Well as I'm here because you
walked into my bar and I

recognized you.
So thank you very much.

I am exactly the same as I was
before I was in the 50 best.

That most of the things I will
tell you today are relative to

things that I learned before I
was in the 50 best, maybe 10% is

things I learned in the last
year.

And I appreciate a lot of the
work that you do because nobody

does this sort of work and this
kind of connection between

brands and bartenders and sales.
Nobody does this.

So bravo, right.
Translation, translation is a

good word because it implies
language.

And the problem is that brands
and bartenders and hospitality

workers, it's as though they
have two kinds of different

languages and two types of
grammar that are different.

And sometimes guests understand
one grammar rather than the

other and vice versa.
And it's all in the translation

of how you communicate these
things that we lose lots of

information.
Sometimes I think, yes, brands

don't speak the language of
bartenders, but sometimes brands

speak the language of clients
better because brands have more

resources to understand what
clients want.

Sometimes how clients perceive
things, how they see them, how

they need to be spoken to or
bartenders tend to be so with

their heads in the buckets that
they don't have a wiser image of

what the businesses and how it
works and how clients see

things.
Because you only see the clients

that come in your bar, you don't
see how clients behave with

other bars.
So you kind of have only that

reference and after the quite a
long time that becomes very

limiting in your way of dealing
with clients.

The way you speak with them is
always the same because it's

relative to how you do
hospitality in your bar.

And so sometimes more than more
than others, I think it's

bartenders that have to kind of
understand why brands want

certain things and where they
got the information that leaves

them.
To want those things and that

way of communicating with
guests, you can see that in

adverts in supermarkets, how you
know brands communicate with

colors and tastes.
There's a golden rule for

bartenders that if you go in a
supermarket and you see that

there's a new kind of
combination of fruit juice that

they're selling.
Well, maybe if a brand decided

to invest in that, there's some
sort of trend there and maybe

you should follow it if you
don't see it.

If in a in a supervisor all of a
sudden they're selling banana

and apple juice together, Well
maybe that is a combination that

some that that a percentage of
clients, they like it and maybe

you should follow it or try it
at least and sometimes we don't

see them.
It's what happens in between the

communication that is
interesting between brands and

bartenders.
I love that and that's a bit of

a self self reflection because
we all need to speak a language

that ultimately it's simple to
understand.

And I, you know, sometimes when
I write my my newsletter and my

post and so on, like I use the
software that that that actually

takes my text and nothing to do
with the eye just to to make it

clear.
And it just like gives you a

mark on what kind of
understandability there is And

then it's like okay.
This is 1/6 grader would

understand this or like this is
1/10 grader who understands it.

And you know the more I make it
complicated, the more I lose

people.
So I try to go down to the, you

know, to the five or sixth
grader to really say because

I've also changed, for example,
the way I communicate because

sometimes I was talking about, I
know target outlets and then now

I just use bars as because I
don't want to say bars,

restaurants, pubs, clubs, you
know, so I was using outlets to

generalize it.
But then people are like, what

is an outlets?
What do you mean by outlets?

You know, like and you know,
Lantiguaria would be an outlet,

but there's nothing further from
an outlet than Lantiguaria.

It took me years to get my head
in on trade and off trade, I can

imagine that.
Because because for me, a bottle

of whiskey is a bottle of
whiskey.

No bottle of whiskey on trade is
1 product.

Off Trade is a different
product.

Exactly the.
Same label.

Yeah.
And then out of home, at home

and then Horica and you know
like and everybody you know here

in Prague, they call it gastro
for example.

Yeah.
You know gastro is the on trade

which in Italian it would sound
like a very bad thing.

It's like you've got some
disease gastro, but that's the

way it is.
And how do you combine the kind

of like 2 hats of being the
owner of one of the best bars

and and at the same time
representing brands and working

with brands and, you know,
bigger or smaller brands that

you work with?
We are in some ways unique

because we've always worked
that.

We chose to work always directly
with brands, never going through

local distributors.
Why?

Because in Italy, things are
changing.

Now usually you could buy if
you're a big client directly

from the brands or you could go
through a local distributor.

Obviously the rules of buying
and selling change quantities

the contracts, but buying
directly from the brands gives

you the possibility to get known
from the brands.

If the brand goes through the
distributor, it doesn't know

where the product goes.
So even if I'm doing a very good

work with the brands, the brand
might never know.

If the distributor doesn't tell
them, doesn't show me the work I

do, I might not not get access
to marketing funds because it's

the distributor that moves them
and it's not so and it's not the

main brand.
So we always try to work

directly with the brand.
We wanted that in some office in

Milan or in London or in
somewhere else.

On that next self file, the name
of our brand would come up, you

know, like inquiry or buys this
numbers of bottle, you know?

So the even if you were like in
1000 position, they knew that we

were buying something from them
and then we were doing our work.

And through the years this gave
us access to getting known by

brands because you know if you
do continuity and you do good

work, they come to want to do
contracts with you.

They give you marketing fees,
you know if you're consistent

that that rewards you.
And so we always did that and

that's the price to pay that you
have to pay before you get the

bottles.
You have to be very good in

payments.
You always have to be good in

following the contract.
So you know, it's a bit more

complicated to do that, but it
rewards you.

Not everybody does that.
So that kind of gave us access

to knowing how brands work
because obviously you speak with

people that are in the main
offices and they tell you quite

openly what they need from you.
So you kind of work in the same

direction.
So I've always had that

mentality.
I always kind of know what a

brand wants.
I immediately understand.

If a brand asks me something, if
it comes from a global

perspective, if it's a global
indication that they're trying

to apply in Italy, because
obviously I see things from an

Italian point of view, which is
a limited market and I'm in the

South of Italy in Naples, which
has its own markets, Okay.

I try to translate things in
different scales when they tell

me.
And so, you know, I kind of got

good in that obviously I lose
track of.

Of maybe new products, because
some new products I just can't

use because maybe they're not
distributed well, they might be

trendy, but I can't buy them
immediately.

I won't go and buy them on
Internet.

I won't go looking for them in a
crazy way through very small

local distributors or
wholesales, you know.

So that is a bit more
complicated for me, but we we

resolved that recently opening
e-commerce.

And so you know we will discover
that on the ecommerce and Amazon

you sell things that you don't
sell in a bar.

So that gave me the opportunity
to buy things that I don't

necessarily use Atlantiquario,
but maybe I can just have one

bottle as a reference and take
it from ecommerce.

So I kind of can, I can cross
the channels and maybe some

things that I sell Atlantiquario
don't sell on Internet at all,

but there are obscure products
that sell loads on the Internet

that I can kind of.
Bring to an antiquity or and

maybe capture the attention of
the over of the clients because

there are some things that
people buy from home that

they're drinking bars for very
obscure reasons.

Maybe the bottle is pretty it's
called fancy name.

There's some sort of train that
I'm not realizing and say you

know can that helps me a little
bit.

Wow that's a super interesting
things that you're saying there

because it's it's a totally
different perspective and

because I remember when I was at
university in Rome I was selling

for an Internet startup it was
called tonight.

I mean it still exists and
basically we set up the Rome

office with some friends from
university and and we used to

run events from the headquarters
that would work with big brands

you know big drinks brands and
we would run events for them but

we would give them a list of
outlets well bar sorry to to

activate in and they didn't know
the product was there and and I

remember I mean I was 2122 at
that time and and I and I

thought like ain't going to mean
it.

I mean how can this big brand
that is selling loads of bottles

in this bar not know the contact
name and the bar owner of this

bar.
And then you know after many

years it I closed the ring and
said when I started working in

the industry and I said OK now I
got it.

It's about wholesalers.
It's about, you know, there is a

gap in communication upwards and
downwards because the wholesaler

doesn't want to give access to
their client list, but also the

brand doesn't necessarily want
to want to sell to you as a

customer and then it becomes
this kind of short circuit.

I'll give you a perfect example
of this.

Years ago, a brand of Sambuca in
Italy all of a sudden decided to

fund the trend of bars and
cocktails and want to push

Sambuca and cocktails in Italy.
Now Sambuca in Italy is a very.

Local product that is used in
very local ways, never in

cocktails, OK?
It's not something that has even

got that much of A history in
cocktails.

So you have to really push it.
So what they did is they went to

the local distributors and they
said, you know, we want to do

these activities.
We have a format that's a

wonderful communication, a
communication agency did for us.

It's really nice.
It's about cocktail bars,

bartenders, you know.
Really cool guys making

cocktails.
Can you please tell us where you

sell the Sambuca that they make
cocktails?

And the distributor said, why
you're asking me this, you've

never been interested in that.
All you need to know is that

what we're selling and even the
distributors didn't know which

bars they were selling or making
either coffee or just cocktails

and they had no idea and they
went on trying to to fill this

gap and they realized that, you
know, it was very difficult.

Because Sambuca wasn't used in
the cocktail bars, so they had

to rebuild completely.
The network and wholesales

haven't got the resources for
that.

I say nobody knew.
And what happened?

They abandoned the projects and
now there's a wonderful ad that

goes on GTV in Italy where this
brand of Sambuca won't tell you

which one.
There's all these cool people

drinking shots of Sambuca and at
the end the caption is brand of

Sambuca, a shot of Italy.
They've completely abandoned

cocktails and they've gone back
to Washington Buca was, which

was just a shot.
Exactly.

This is an incredible example
because it's really like what

what we say about like the the
target occasion.

Now I always talk about this
target occasion or target

cocktail target drink to give
the hook for communication to to

a bar.
But I have a take, at least when

I work with brands that I never
want to be dictatorial Now like

I don't want to dictate, you
know, this is the drink, this is

the brand that goes with this
drink.

But very often the issue is that
this has been created in ad

agencies.
You know it has created, it has

been created by people that
don't go to bars or have never

been to bars or they moved from
maybe from a dairy company.

You know, they were working for.
You know, they were selling

yogurts or milk or chocolate in
supermarkets and they had a

great career and then they
become head of on trade and then

all of a sudden like they don't
know how to work with the with

the entree.
So in they need education from

the bar to actually redirect
their focus.

But this the way you said it, it
seems as though these people the

kind of.
They're not fit to work in our

industry.
That is true to a certain level,

and I'll give you another
example.

But it's also true that we in
our industry have to understand

how marketing works.
And marketing works exactly the

same.
If I'm selling a pair of socks,

a panettone, a bottle of
whiskey, a diaper, it works

exactly the same.
The base rules are exactly the

same because the consumer, the
brain of the consumer works in

the same way.
You just have to kind of.

Forget what you're selling and
use the grammar so that people

understand.
I've worked with people from

multinationals that came to
direct enormous projects in

Italy that the year before they
were selling pasta.

They did enormous projects.
After two years they went and

went to a big brand that sells
chocolate, and after the year

they were working for a
newspaper.

For them it made no difference
at all sometimes.

They do big damage because
obviously they come into a

market that they don't know.
They make wrong decisions.

The consequences of those
decisions you maybe can measure

after three or four years.
Meanwhile they've moved on

absolutely.
So you know they're lost.

But I think it's a it's a double
way you're having to see this.

You know, I always say that
bartenders or who works in our

industry.
Has a different kind of training

that has nothing to do with
marketing or sales.

The most close thing that we get
to sales is up selling a drink.

But that works on completely
different human mechanisms and

psychological traps that we
have.

That has nothing to do with
marketing.

It's completely different
things.

So the language that you sell a
vodka has nothing to do to do

what a brand does in
advertising?

So maybe on our side we should
need more training on knowing,

you know, how does an
advertising agency build a

strategy like I remember always
years ago where in Italy it's

quite common that you get like a
global indication from the

multinational that maybe has
been fought for.

I don't know something in
England or an Anglo-Saxon

culture or the state and they
just send the mail to Italy and

they say right, apply this.
And obviously they get the mail

in Milan and they read it and
say right, how am I going to

apply this in Italy, which is
completely different country.

Like there was a brand of Irish
whiskey that had in its

presentation the word hipster
right now.

Applying hipster to Italian
culture had no sense, you know.

It was all about people with
beers, suspenders with dandy

dressing.
That had no sense for Italians.

They had no way of applying that
to Italian culture.

And I remember in those years I
would go around everywhere,

would travel and I'd say, excuse
me, you know, to offend, what,

can you define the word hipster
for me, please, Because, you

know, I'm curious to know, you
know, because I don't know it

either.
And the best answer I got is

hipsters are those that have
have not enough money to pay a

cocktail, so they only drink
coffee and they need to be

socially positioned in the
world.

So they ended up working in
coffee shops and then they did

an upgrade to bartenders because
that gives them instant

positioning with very little
knowledge.

And that was, I think that was a
very crude and realistic

definition of them.
And you know what hipsters

became in Italy?
People with motorcycles, with

Harley Davidsons, That's the
closest record, which is

completely different than what
hipsters, I mean, so I don't

think you get, you know,
hipsters in in Williamsburg, in

Brooklyn.
I don't think they see bikers.

Hanging around, they're probably
on a bicycle, not on a

motorbike.
You know exactly, exactly.

You nailed it there.
Because what we were saying

before about, you know, the
industry tends to be very

exclusive.
For example coming from beer for

me you know I entered the world
of spirits like a few years ago

and and I felt very like very
much as an outsider despite I

was part of the same industry
because I mean I was selling an

alcoholic brand and you know it
felt very like out of

referential you know like like
self.

Help me on the on the finding
your word on the.

Self self referential?
Yeah, Self referential and and

you know, like just talking
about yourself and the same

group of people and that that
becomes a bit of a you know, I

cannot understand them.
So I hire an agency to help me

understand them instead of
actually going to a bar, sitting

at the bar and actually like
asking you like, what do you

think about this?
There is a reason for this.

You said that you came from a
world of beer, which is much

more democratic probably and has
a language that is understood

much better.
Anybody from anybody in the

world can walk into a beer bar.
Look around and understand

immediately what is happening,
where the beer tap is, where the

freak with the bottles are, what
people it will look around and

they will see, you know, what
kind of beers people are

drinking and what glasses.
You know, if it's a round glass,

if it's a pint of beer, more or
less everybody has that kind of

education.
If you walk into a bar, it's at

least 20 different indicators
that you might not understand.

Bottles.
Whiskey.

Cognac, high end cocktails,
coloured cocktails, you know, a

normal person hasn't got that
kind of understanding of the

language, so they were walking
to a bar and don't understand.

Bartenders on the other hand,
have fifty kinds of language to

express and they have to kind of
funnel them into one small spot,

which is very difficult.
That's why bartenders.

It's very difficult for a
bartender to be good.

In, you know, all kinds of
products, you know, you kind of

slowly find your way and it's
something that you prefer

selling.
And so you know, it's more

difficult and that makes us more
isolated because you know, the

natural thing is to become more
technical because we think that

if you become more technical and
knowledgeable about the

products, you're better in
communicating them.

But as you said, sometimes you
have to downgrade your

communication to such a basic
level.

That you're nearly ashamed of
using because that's not

professional.
I should use the best words and

the best technical adjectives to
describe this risky no.

Sometimes you have to have the
humility to explain things at

such a basic level and
communicate in such a basic

level that people find comfort
in coming into your bar

absolutely, absolutely.
And that is the key thing

because otherwise the industry
will never be able to, you know,

gain more people interested.
Because I've got friends that

don't want to go with me to
cocktail bars because they feel

like, no, I'm not.
I'm not the cocktail type.

And it's like, man, like, you
know, what's the cocktail type?

You can have whatever there from
a single mold, you know, on the

rocks or needs or to add to the
fenciest cocktail to a pina

colada with the with umbrella in
it.

There's no such thing as, you
know, like a cocktail type of

person is just it's just a
probably they've conveyed that

message to you to make it
exclusive and they kind of like

push you off.
I just want to do an example

that happened yesterday at the
bar.

Now it's July and we work a lot
with tourists and we have many

more tourists and it's a kind of
tourist that comes to Naples and

then comes and visit us just
because it finds us on Internet.

OK, now there's one thing that
happens every now or again,

Atlantic quality.
We are a closed door bar with

kind of a seated bar.
We're not a Speakeasy.

I don't have a password.
I'm just in the road where I

don't have anything outside.
So I I have a closed door.

I have to ring a bell to come
in.

Yesterday about out we did.
Yesterday we did I think 120

people out of 120 people that we
did, 10 or 12 groups that came.

I opened it when they rang the
bell.

I opened the door and they were
frightened when I opened the

door.
And they asked me, are you open?

You know.
They were so unfamiliar with the

concept of a bar having a closed
door that they were scared, you

know.
And I and I have kind of, when I

see that I worked out a reaction
that I do, you know, I kind of

make it fun.
I say, ah, am I that horrible

that I scared you?
You know, and obviously, imagine

being somebody that reads your
bar on a guide on Internet, goes

to the address on Google, finds
it and finds a closed door.

Sometimes, yeah.
One of the clients, you know

what I did yesterday, he called
us on the number and I answered

from the bar and I said, you
know, hello Atlantic Wire and

said, are you open?
And I said, yes, we are because

we're here and the door is
closed.

And I said, well, ring the bell.
And they rang the bell and I

opened and we were full inside
and I said here, come in.

And they were completely out of
this world because they didn't

imagine that there could be so
many people in such a secret

place.
OK.

Now imagine being in the head of
that person that has to come in

in a place that they didn't
imagine would be in that way as

people doing all different
things, as somebody dressed in a

white jacket that opens your
door before they even manage to

their brain, before they even
manage to recognize a bottle on

your back bar, they're going to
have to elaborate so many

things.
So the the work that I do in the

1st 20 minutes is just make
putting them in ease, you know,

making them feel comfortable at
home.

And then we can start speaking
the language of drinks.

That's the typical, the typical
thing that we tend to forget

after doing it for a long time.
It's so simple yet you know we

are over complicating it somehow
now and how you say you buy

directly from bars, so you are
in a bit of a different kind of

like set up.
But imagine like I'm a I'm a

sales guy and I'm I'm coming
into your bars and I want and

I'm trying to sell you my
products.

You know and you've never heard
about this brand.

You know like you being so
connected, so connected to the

worlds of brands, the worlds of
bartending, you know everybody

in the industry.
What's your reaction when you

have never heard of brands?
Well, there are.

There are many different kinds
of agents that walk in to my bar

and I Initially, I've learned to
assess their point of skill in

selling.
First of all, if they don't do

an appointment that you can't
walk into the bar at 10:00 in

the evening and expect me to
speak with you or taste your

product.
Second, if you walk into a bar

and you pretend you're a client
and all of a sudden pop up a

bottle and wanting me to taste
it, that's wrong and in the past

I was very permitted.
If you do that to me now, I will

throw you out to the bar nearly.
If I realized that you came in

as a client and then you want to
sell me something, I want to

kick you out, It means that you
have no absolute respect for me

and my work, you know, so
they're very different levels.

But sometimes it happens that
people come in and obviously

maybe they were sent there by
the brand and they don't have no

knowledge of cocktail bars and
they want to sell me something.

And even there, you know, you
immediately understand what kind

of input they had by the brand.
You know, I've had people in the

past come to me years ago with a
new brand that I knew on the

global market.
I didn't even know it was

distributed in Italy.
I didn't know the distributor.

They came with an appointment.
They showed me the product.

I knew I never tasted the
product, but I knew from our

reviews that it was good and
what was good about it.

And then they said the phrase at
the end if they paused a little

bit and then they said with a
strange tone, we are also a 50

bit sponsor.
And I said, well what do you

mean by that?
I said no, I'm just saying

that's where 50 bits were.
And I said what's that got to do

with selling the product here?
Have you any idea of the work I

do here?
I I don't give a shit of who's

who you're sponsoring.
If you want to come and sell me

this, let's speak about the
product.

And that immediately put me off.
And for four years we didn't buy

the product.
And now it changed.

The three bitter in Italy and it
has a better language of

marketing and positioning it and
we started to buy it.

But I I I sincerely wanted that
product because I saw it drunk

abroad and I wanted it and I
didn't have it in Italy.

But that single phrase put me
off and we didn't buy it.

When they come and they tell me
this product is used by this

other bar, do you know it?
And maybe it's the best bar in

Rome or in Milan or in London.
Now if you come to my bar and

you think I don't know my other
competitors in Italy, then

obviously you haven't done your
homework on me exactly.

And you can't expect to sell me
something with the name of

another brand on it or another
bar.

I will buy it out of respect and
because maybe they're friends

and I and I appreciate the
product.

But that does just the fact that
that brand comes from the work

done in another bar, opens the
gate in my bar.

And I'll give you an example of
this, years ago, a very

important vodka brand, Russian
vodka brand.

They made the luxury bottle for
bottle service in the clubs and

they did a special version with
the name of Ushuaia Club and it

needs to.
And they and they thought that

that would position it
everywhere.

The opposite happens.
Happened.

No, no clubs wanted to buy it
because there was the brand of

another club on it.
That's incredible.

So they ended up not selling it.
And no, no, no club that had a

minimum of self esteem would
have a bottle of vodka with the

name of another club on it.
Had no sense.

But sometimes, you know, they
have to work and do their

homework a bit better.
And just approach us with a

little bit more respect, you
know, not thinking that we don't

know anything about the rest of
the world.

But what happens if you have
never heard about the brand?

You know, like do you give it a
try or do you basically like,

more rely on your own kind of
like sources?

And then you say actually, I
mean, if not nobody of my peers

or nobody of my bartenders I've
ever has ever heard about this

brand, probably, you know, it's
not, it's not really worth it

how how open you are.
Well it's it's very difficult

that.
The brand is not known at all.

It takes me two seconds on
Internet to have a little bit of

feedback.
What happens is that someone

will come in and they will
present you a bottle of

something that you've never seen
because simply they've just

produced it.
It's a local producer.

He has no distribution.
He's going door to door.

You have to buy 12 bottles
directly from him.

So you know, that is not a good
sign.

And I always, you know, and I
have people like that knocking

on the door three or four times
a week.

Now that they come from with a
different gin and Amaro, A

liqueur, you know, things that's
a bit simpler to make.

It's difficult that someone will
walk in with a whiskey, and I've

never heard of it, or at least I
can't trace where it comes from.

It's difficult that someone will
walk in with a bottle of gin or

of rum.
And I can't trace the the where

it comes from unless it's an
independent bottler.

But even then, in three seconds
I can trace where it comes from.

While it's very common that
people come with a bottle of

gin, and I have no clue where
that comes from, but I know that

that person is making it on his
own.

He's probably producing it in
somebody else's distillery.

He hasn't got a distribution and
he and he expects me to buy a

bottle there at the moment and
sign an order.

That's not going to happen.
So I've I've learned to with

these people to have a different
kind of conversation.

And I ask them right are you
present in any local

distributors?
Because from local distributors

I buy very little.
But if you are there, I am

willing to give you a chance.
I don't want you to leave me the

bottle.
I don't want to try it.

Explain it to me and if you tell
me where you are, I will.

I will order one bottle from
them and have it at the bar and

we can taste it.
And that puts them off.

Because that's not what they
expect.

They expect to sell it on their
own.

They want to close A6 bottle, at
least deal with you and send you

6 bottles.
Well, if I know that you've done

the work to being a local
distributor, that means that

you've done your work better,
that you've bought it a level

before you've made it more
accessible.

A question I do now is, is the
bottle on Amazon?

Because now the best distributor
is Amazon.

We we sell on Amazon, Okay.
So I say right, it's your bottle

on that.
Is it listed on Amazon?

Can I buy one bottle on Amazon?
Because on Amazon I can order

and have it tomorrow.
And maybe, you know, I think

that in the future we will be
all ordering through Amazon.

There will be like a business
Amazon where I can order day by

day products, contract, price
and that is the future for me.

Unfortunately or in a positive
way, I have no idea.

And sometimes they say no, we
don't even have the barcode that

that is necessary to be listed
as a product on on Internet.

OK, that is the easiest way to
be bought everywhere.

If I want to reorder 1 bottle
from you, if you're not in a

local distributor and I can't
buy you on Internet, how my hell

am I going to get to you?
So I'm I'm willing to try

everything, even if I realize
that you're a gimmick product.

That you've just made your way
to with and you immediately want

to try A shot of me Often I
asked them, is your product in

any bar in the area?
And sometimes they say no,

sometimes I'm the first bar they
come to in Naples and that's

that's even crazier.
Why would you burn the the ends

like with you as a first?
But you know, that happens also

with major multinationals, I
mean.

When a multinational comes with
a new product, you know,

sometimes they launch a new
product and they come and

present it.
You know, they say, Alex, you

know, we want you to try it.
What do you think?

We're launching it in Las Vegas
next week.

We have the 1st 6 bottles in
Italy.

Here's one.
And I'd say, right, wonderful,

good.
We'll try it.

And then they come back after
two months.

And then maybe I used it a
little bit and then I asked

them, right, you know, what's
happening in the world?

Because obviously I'm in Naples.
The kind of things I do and not

what they do in Los Angeles,
right.

Can you give me give me two
examples of how they're using

the product in London?
Maybe, you know give me

something that I can take
inspiration from.

Give me something that is not
your brand format, but give me

an example.
You know give me a menu or some

other bar that I can look up to
and they have no clue.

You know they have no clue.
They can't.

They can't even say the name of
1 bar that lists it in the menu

in London sometimes.
So it's the opposite.

Sometimes they come to me
selling it with the name of

another bar, and sometimes they
have no idea.

So, you know, maybe they will
come with a weird new liqueur

and I'll say wonderful.
I will work out a way to use it.

I will work out the drink cost
to see how much I can use in a

cocktail that applies only to my
bar.

And then I will ask him, right,
you know, what's happening with

this in Asia, what's happening
with this in London, in New

York?
How are they using it?

No response.
So you know, I'm left on my own

sometimes.
And this brings us to another

problem, that globalization is a
myth.

It doesn't exist.
Nothing is global.

Only local counts.
Absolutely, absolutely.

Ultimately, you know, global
brands, they sell 80 percent,

90% of their sales in a handful
of countries anyway.

You know that any brand you can
think of like the biggest brands

in the world you can think of,
they've got let's call it like 5

countries where they sell 80 to
90% of the of everything and

then the rest is small market.
So all these myriad of markets

are actually small brands.
So you actually competing almost

with the with the local players,
you're at that level of like 1

bottle sold, sold per month in a
bar.

And there is this illusion that
you know like oh I've got like

my brand is in 50 markets.
You know, like I see Peach decks

from brand owners and so on.
And that's why I always

recommend not to do that because
I try to own your home turf

first, you know, and then build
it up.

Because if it's a if it's a gene
from Napoli or whatever, when

I'm out of from Napoli and then
I call you and you have never

heard of it.
And then I go to Napoli and I've

never seen it.
I cannot drink it anywhere.

But then it's huge in London.
It's just like it doesn't.

First of all, it doesn't exist,
and then it doesn't make any

sense because it's just like if
Napolitans are not drinking a

gene from Napoli, why am I
supposed to drink it in Prague?

I'll give you a perfect example
of this many years ago.

There are, there are some local
products in Italy that the

market is all global.
It's not Italian, OK?

There are so many Amaro's
liquors in Italy.

That some of them have 80
percent, 90% of the sales abroad

and they're not sold in all of
Italy.

Okay.
So, you know, there is a global

perception of an Italian product
made in Italy which is used in

all of Italy.
It's it's like Japanese people

that come on holiday to Italy
and they go to Venice and they

expect to eat pizza in Venice
Okay or they will come to Naples

and they expect to find Cabonara
in a Napolitan restaurant.

Okay.
That is a perception glitch.

Because obviously they don't
know the local products Okay and

there was a very important
multinational that had an Amaro,

very good Amaro, which was very,
very strong in in Germany.

Okay and Germany has a very
strong tourism connection with

Italy and certain places of
Italy.

So when the season would come
here, you would have the reps

going around and giving away the
Amaro to the special hotels to

the bars.
Because if the German tourists

would come and not find that in
Italy, they would say it's not a

true product because nobody
thinks it's in Italy, you know,

so they would set up the human
show, yeah.

Exactly.
And that happens even in reverse

when we are affected with global
markets like Naples is very

affected by what people drink
and it leaves up okay because we

go on holiday there of course.
So that that bottle with the

ushuaya brands.
Maybe had only value in Naples

and sometimes you spend
marketing in a holiday place and

that affects another region,
okay.

So like places like Nikonos and
Ibiza, they have so much

marketing because they're not
doing marketing in Spain,

they're doing marketing to a
global public okay.

And if you go to the Costera,
Mafitana and Sorento there you

will drink things that you don't
drink in Naples.

Why?
Because you have all your

American tourists there.
So some brands that have no

markets at all in places like
Naples, Rome, Milan, all of a

sudden are the most sold
products in certain hotels that

it's that's it's saying that's
insane.

It happens every year with
tequila, OK?

It is not a big quantity of
tequila that is given to Italy

to sell because Italy is a very
small market.

But all of a sudden in the
summer you have thousands of

American tourists that want
their Kraft tequilas, their

Hollywood star tequila, and we
simply don't have it here

because they don't sell it to
us.

Okay.
You know, maybe some big

American comes for his wedding
here, and he asked for 120

bottles of premium tequila.
And maybe the whole assignment

for all of Italy is 300 bottles,
you know?

I can't imagine.
So, you know, global and local

is a very, very different scale
of problem, you know, and it

applies very differently in
different places.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode, so if you liked it,

feel free to listen to both part
one and two of our chat.

That's all for today.
I hope you gain valuable

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