Women in Healthcare: Leadership Lessons in Empathy, Reflection and Overcoming Adversity

Welcome to the Women in Healthcare podcast. In this episode, our host Adrienne Lloyd engages in a compelling discussion with her former Mayo colleague and healthcare leader, Carrie Koh. Together, they bring their wealth of experience in navigating the challenges of leadership within the healthcare industry to the forefront.

Throughout their conversation, Lloyd and Koh emphasize the vital role of empathy, trust, and psychological safety when confronted with difficult situations. They delve into the significance of self-awareness, active listening, and the power of building connections as drivers of positive change.

Takeaways:
- Focus on empathy, safety and solutions rather than just complaints when working with teams
- Slow down, ask questions, take small steps and be patient rather than overplanning
- Leaders should understand perspectives, make time for reflection and build trust

Resources:
MGMA Podcasts
Carrie Koh TEDx Talk
Women in Healthcare Podcasts

Music:
"Pablito's Way" by Paolo Pavan courtesy of Free Music Archive, CC BY-NC-SA

Connect With Us:
If you would like additional tools and resources related to medical practice leadership or you have stories to share with us, email us at Daniel Williams at [e-mail]. If you would like to appear on Women in Healthcare, contact Adrienne Lloyd at [e-mail].

Thank you again for taking the time to listen to the MGMA podcast network.

This episode is brought to you by Zoll Data Systems, software and data solutions for healthcare financial professionals. Zoll AR Boost is the comprehensive automated RCM optimization suite that automatically finds, corrects and verifies patient and payer information to capture more revenue, reduce administrative burden, and improve the patient financial experience. The number one Black Book-rated insurance discovery tool can discover active, billable coverage for more than 40 percent of claims. Visit https://www.zolldata.com/healthcare-financial-data/arboost to learn about the complete Solution suite.

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Adrienne Lloyd: 00:54

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest edition of Women in Healthcare podcast with Medical Group Management Association. My name is Adrienne Lloyd, and I am so honored today to have Carrie Koe, who has been a long time, friend and initially, former colleague of mine. I met her actually, when I was interviewing for my fellowship at Mayo Clinic, she was one of the first people I got to talk to, and she was doing a really great, rotation in radiology at the time. And I was like, oh, that. I wanna follow in her footsteps.

Adrienne Lloyd: 01:24

It sounded like she was getting a lot of great opportunities. So, but since then, she has gone on to do many, many amazing things. After working at Mayo, she moved and worked at a larger health system in Colorado where she worked around strategy, business development, growth. She also is a TEDx speaker, who spoke on the 4 choices to overcome adversity. It's got garnered over a 100,000 views already.

Adrienne Lloyd: 01:49

And she teaches around thought leadership, persuasive public speaking, to those who really want to increase their impact by sharing their story. And she's also a business mentor and coach specializing in helping people and professional women and physicians. We'll talk a little bit about the physician component as we go through. I'm really helping them monetize their authority and really just create better strategies of how to interact with others, whether they're in a leadership role, working as a frontline provider, physician, surgeon, and really just continuing to grow and excel in whatever it is that they are passionate about. So, Carrie, thank you so so much for being here, and we're excited just just to kinda dive in.

Adrienne Lloyd: 02:30

I'm so excited. Let's do it. So I would like to start off and just ask, you know, out of all the last, I think it's 20 plus years you've been in health care like myself, what is one of your favorite moments in your career? One of the favorite things that you've been able to create?

Carrie Koh: 02:47

I love that question because, you know, oftentimes, it's the moments that we remember. Yeah. And it's the moments that other people remember as well. And and when I think about that question, the moment is actually not when I was a health care executive. It was a moment when I was an entrepreneur helping physicians and health care leaders and other entrepreneurs.

Carrie Koh: 03:13

And, I've gone through, a life changing situation where my son was hospitalized for the first five months of his life in the NICU. And, unfortunately, he passed away from a rare muscle disease. And one of the things that surprised me, is that when you are met with death or, you know, some tragedy, people want to give you money. And I think it's you know, people don't know what to say. Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 03:46

Right? Nobody knows what to say. Even if you've been through a similar tragedy, we don't know what to say to each other. You know? We're scared to say the wrong thing.

Carrie Koh: 03:53

And so we had all of these generous friends, family, Ollie donate, to a fund. And we were like, gosh. What can we do with this fund? And one of the experiences we had, with our son was we had put him on palliative care. And and when you're in the NICU, the only thing you want is normality.

Carrie Koh: 04:17

You want those moments of cuddling, of, you know, just, you know, node wires, just doing those normal things, put holding them in a in a way that you could hold a healthy baby. And so we worked with NICU leadership, and we formed a used that money to form palliative care room. Their their palliative care program was really in its infancy, and so we created a really awesome room that had a queen-size bed and a couch. It looked like a living room with the bed in it and, of course, had all the medical hookups. And so we were really proud of this room, and I I had recently, circled back and and spoke with, someone from the ethics committee of this hospital where we created this room.

Carrie Koh: 05:00

And she said, Carrie, I am so upset. We had to put someone's name on that room. We got a huge donor for the palliative care program, and I was like, well, it's our room. Yeah. And I was like, what are you talking about?

Carrie Koh: 05:14

And she's like, well, after that room, we could not get any of the physicians to refer patients into that room. The nurses would say, hey. You know, I think that, like, it'd be really great if we could put them in the palliative care room, and they're like, no. I'm not ready because they interpreted that as a failure on their part. And this this nurse was so frustrated.

Carrie Koh: 05:37

She's like, well, just call it a serenity suite then. And then that name was born. It was called the Serenity Suite, and then patients were able to use it. And through all of this this, repositioning of what we called it, they, attracted a huge donor. They got, like, a couple $1,000,000 into this program.

Carrie Koh: 06:00

They attracted top, physicians, and they have an a a palliative care program that's just excelling. And I was like, isn't that such a cool moment that, like, we were you know, my son was the catalyst for just a room a room Yeah. Room in a hospital. Right? And then, you know, through all of the people who who surrounded us with love and support, they created something that's gonna help so many more people.

Carrie Koh: 06:27

So I think really, like, having that conversation with her even though she was so frustrated, but, like, it's Elliot's room. Elliot was the name of my son. That's awesome. No. That's the point.

Carrie Koh: 06:37

Right? Like and I think we can all remember, like, we are the catalyst for for, like, someone all throughout our lives. Right? And we may not know what that looks like in the moment. But if we can just trust that, right, and just take one step at a time, we get to where we wanna be.

Carrie Koh: 06:53

Right.

Adrienne Lloyd: 06:53

It becomes a movement. So serenity suites everywhere. Yeah. Well, I remember we may have talked about this. I was, was both pregnant and then had just recently had my daughter when all of, you know, everything with Elliot was happening.

Adrienne Lloyd: 07:04

And I just remember reading your your Caring Bridge and the stories and seeing the the moments of joy that we were able to create, whether it was like the pool parties or, you know, these little things that you were able to do and just the staff being so supportive. So to be able to have those moments, and I think that in health care, it's so important where there is only so much that can be done sometimes for the long term, you know, out outcome survival or, you know, whatever the case may be for the patient and for their families. But to be able to give them joy in those moments along the way, it's, you know, those moments that really allow us all to continue, I think, through the the other ones. So

Carrie Koh: 07:43

It's so true. And and it's important for for, you know, people who are giving that clinical care to see that, to know that. I think that, like, you know, all of the physicians and nurses, everyone's overwhelmed and and overworked, and it's like, can we just pause for a minute? Like, these people changed our life in the most difficult time of our lives. Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 08:06

And and that feeling of receiving that support created a whole new career for me. Yeah. Like, a whole new, trajectory because I wanted to give back in a different way. Right? I want to be the administrator of the hospital in whatever capacity.

Carrie Koh: 08:23

Right? It's like I I need to help in a different way. I can help in a different way. I have a I have a different skill set that can help, that maybe wasn't realized before in my traditional role. I think everyone has that.

Carrie Koh: 08:35

Everyone has that thing that maybe they're not acknowledging or maybe, you know, in their role, it's not acknowledged. Right. But when we discover that thing, that's when everything takes off. Yeah.

Adrienne Lloyd: 08:46

Well, I'm being forced to slow down, although none of us would wish any of those circumstances that you had to go through, on anyone. But it you know, being able to take those times to really connect in, like, what's important and what's, you know, what do you really enjoy and how do you want to, you know, serve and how do you really feel like you're adding value, I think is so important. And, one of the areas that I know that you started with as you started your own business and have continued to do is really help work with both physicians and leaders individually and with teams around burnout. And I know sometimes you and I were talking about earlier, you kind of get called in almost as an intervention coach or, like, this individual, whether it's physician or otherwise, has got behavioral challenges or not meeting productivity standards or, you know, whatever it is that they're just really not kind of, the leadership is worried about whether or not they're gonna be able to continue in their capacity and they're they're kind of called in in that way. But I know sometimes it can really be what kind of what's under the surface.

Adrienne Lloyd: 09:41

What have you is there an experience that you've had or something that you could share with, us to really think differently about those kinds of situations as they come up?

Carrie Koh: 09:52

Yeah. I I think that, you know, we do see overwhelm as, something we need to react to rather than getting to the root cause of it. Yeah. Right? And and I think that's part of the overwhelm, part of the frustration, and the us versus them is, like, from a physician standpoint, they're seeing something.

Carrie Koh: 10:10

They're feeling something. Yeah. And typically, it's they don't feel seen by, you know, the people who are making the decisions. That they don't feel heard, they don't feel valued. And no matter what their position is, right, no matter where they are in the in the hierarchy.

Carrie Koh: 10:25

And so, you know, when when I get, I'm gonna get referrals that really feel like an intervention Yeah. You know, it requires a lot of questions from leadership too, right, of around, you know, their approach. I need to understand was a a recent client that I had, and I'll change the details a bit for for privacy. But, but this person, you know, was truly burning out. He was a super compassionate surgeon Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 11:06

And, and really cared for his his patients and saw solutions. He was very much solution oriented, and he just, you know, could not communicate in a way that was heard. Yeah. He was so frustrated, and so we started working together. And, like, a week after we worked together, they put him on leave.

Carrie Koh: 11:24

Mhmm. And that was devastating. Like, absolutely devastating. And, you know, I think I think what happens in those situations is we are so overcome with, number 1, anger. Right?

Carrie Koh: 11:39

We feel like how could they do this to me? Right. That sometimes, you know, when we just, like, turn it on its head to say, okay. Like, we know we can't change people. Right?

Carrie Koh: 11:50

Right? We can't change our spouse. We can't like, when we when we come to that, it's like, well, then then what choices do I have?

Adrienne Lloyd: 11:59

Right.

Carrie Koh: 11:59

And I think that when we I can cover the actual choices that that each one of us have, we we can choose, you know, what we focus on. Are we focusing on the problems? Are we focusing on on what we desire? Are we focusing on potential solutions? But at the end of the day, like, are we really connected with what we really know, with with who we really are, with, you know, why we behave the way we did we did.

Carrie Koh: 12:28

Like, this this person definitely had inappropriate behavior. Right? Yeah. Definitely was not kind to some people. Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 12:35

And and, you know, but at the end of the day, that wasn't who he was. Right? It was just him masking, you know, the real underlying fear through anger, through frustration because feeling that fear means, like, admitting something to yourself. And I think, like, as physicians, you have to know the answer or you're out. Right?

Carrie Koh: 12:56

Like, think about the training that all of our physician colleagues go through. Like, what got them to be these awesome successful physicians is not what helps them create a thriving, fulfilling career, whether they're in a leadership position or not. And I think it's that flip of taking back that ownership of who they want to be through, you know, a series of of, you know, really some some deep awareness and then some repatterning of of their thoughts and and beliefs, and and that stuff happened fast. You know? This this physician within I'd say within the first 30 days of working together was like, I he couldn't believe how good he felt.

Carrie Koh: 13:38

Yes. Things were still happy. The environment hadn't changed. Right? Like, things were still happening with his colleagues that were frustrating, but we're able to reframe it when we come from the feeling of it first and then earn that feeling into more aligned action instead of just reacting to the situation.

Adrienne Lloyd: 13:56

Right. When I found too throughout my career is I've had various physician interactions, amazing ones, and ones that were not either probably of our best moments. You know, I think a lot of times too, it's like, again, you know, pausing and really getting to the, okay, you know, let let's talk about, like, where is the frustration coming from? Like, has something happened or has something not happened? Sometimes I think that's a lot of it.

Adrienne Lloyd: 14:17

They aren't seeing action. They aren't seeing resolution. They're feeling like it's never going to get better, and then they are feeling like you're not hearing them. And so being able to have that create a safe space where they because maybe they've tried to. I think particularly having been in new leadership roles, I know you have 2 and many others you have, you know, they may have tried to share their concerns 3, 4, 10 times before with previous leadership and it not been heard.

Adrienne Lloyd: 14:42

So now they feel like why should I try again? And so just try to ask those questions to really understand where what what is really the concern at the heart of it, you know, and how you can move forward is so important. Along those lines, are there questions that you typically kind of would discuss first with, you know, maybe the physician or the person that you're working with. And then also, similarly, like, with leadership, I you know, sometimes I feel like understanding what success looks like from either side, like, there's such gray zone that people don't really know what that looks like. Are there things that you found that leaders maybe should be asking or physicians should be thinking about when they're in those situations?

Carrie Koh: 15:20

Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the things that's important even before you ask questions is acknowledging that, like, let's say it's an administrator. So Yeah. I was administrator. Right?

Carrie Koh: 15:32

I was vice president, and I would have had a physician coming in, and and he was, you know, or she was upset about something. Right? The truth of the matter is I had fear too because whatever the outcome was of this conversation, it was gonna mean something about me. At least that's what I thought. Right?

Carrie Koh: 15:50

So, like, when I reflect on, you know and we're talking about this, what we could have done better, it's like, oh, go in before you go out. Right? Like, okay. What is this really triggering within me? What am I making this mean about me?

Carrie Koh: 16:04

Yeah. What am I focusing on? Right. Right? So when you're in a conversation with somebody, most people are focusing on what they're gonna say next.

Carrie Koh: 16:12

Yep. Most people are focusing on, you know, that person, like, what is your what's happening? They're using stronger language usually. And so that's why, like, nobody feels seen and heard. And so, like, They maybe have different sources, but it's like when we can see each other from a human standpoint.

Carrie Koh: 16:39

Yeah. So so, you know, I really listen to, how the the person across the table or Zoom or whatever is talking to me, what language they're using. Are they coming from, I need to just fix it energy. Are they coming from, oh my gosh, someone needs else needs to fix it fix this. There's nothing else I can do.

Carrie Koh: 16:58

Right? And and then I ask typically feeling questions first. Right? If they're coming from this place of, like, I see I just feel like I'm not seen or heard. I just feel like no matter what I do, nobody cares.

Carrie Koh: 17:13

Like, I can't get in the room. I can't, whatever. So how does that how does that feel? Yeah. What do you think that's about?

Carrie Koh: 17:19

Right? Like, really, like, slowing us down. I think we get into solutions too fast Yeah. And then we make solutions out of fear. And when we create solutions out of fear, they're never gonna get us to where we need to be.

Carrie Koh: 17:32

Yeah. So we need to, like, neutralize that fear, get to the root of it. These are the difficult, uncomfortable conversations that most people haven't learned how to have. It's not difficult conversations. It's not crucial conversations.

Carrie Koh: 17:45

It's it's advocacy conversations. Right? It's advocating for the person. It's like partnership. The room from you, for the team, for the the project, whatever it is you're working on.

Carrie Koh: 17:57

Yeah. No. And I think

Adrienne Lloyd: 17:58

it comes down to the too. You know, I think as as a leader, physician, or administrator, you know, having been the administrator role too, it's there is such pressure to feel like you should have a been aware of the issue, which you may not have had any idea was going on, or that it was still going on. And then there's such pressure to feel like you can find an answer and solution and just solve it. And so, like, in that moment, particularly if it's, you know, gotten a little heated and you've, you know, got the person who has the table. And so to be be able to take that moment of, like, vulnerability and say, you know, I'm sorry this is still happening.

Adrienne Lloyd: 18:31

I wasn't aware this was still happening, or I'm gonna have to look into that because I didn't know, or I need to talk to 3 other people, and can I come back to you next week? And let's talk about it. You know, just Wednesday work. You know, having that, as you said, just slowing it down to both, you know, ask more questions, but also give yourself space so that you because I know I've done it too. I made the mistake of over committing.

Adrienne Lloyd: 18:51

Right? Like, I've over committed of, like, oh, yeah. We can do this. And meanwhile, I go and then they leave and I try to fix it or I get overwhelmed by 28 you know, other things that same day, and it doesn't happen, and then you start to lose a little bit of of trust versus saying, like, you know, I need more information or I have some ideas, but let me, if you don't mind, I'd like to think about them for a little while and, like, let's regroup. I think taking those those moments and trusting that, yes, there are emergencies in health care, obviously, but being able to take there's most of the things that people are frustrated with are gonna allow for some time, whatever that looks like, to really process and come up with a better solution, ideally together than just kind of feeling like you have to decide in that moment.

Adrienne Lloyd: 19:34

So absolutely. Totally. Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 19:37

I that's that's, like, such a good point. Right? Because I think that, you know, so often, we're used to getting external accolades to validate ourselves. If we have the, external accolades to validate ourselves. Right.

Carrie Koh: 19:47

If we have the solution, then we're worthy. Right. Then we know then we deserve to be there. Yep. Right?

Carrie Koh: 19:54

And so it's I love that, like, what a simple tool, right, to just slow it down. Yeah. Right? And and what if you didn't know the answer? And and, like, I like to think of you know, those leaders that, like think about 1 leader that you respected immensely.

Carrie Koh: 20:10

Right? Like, everybody who's listening. Think of that, like, one person. Yeah. Were they the loudest person in the room?

Carrie Koh: 20:16

Were they the one that were just telling everybody what to do and the answers? No. No. They were the calmest. They were Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 20:23

Yeah. Who what'd you say?

Adrienne Lloyd: 20:24

Just the calmest. Like, the

Carrie Koh: 20:26

The calmest. Yeah.

Adrienne Lloyd: 20:27

And then but when they spoke, you're like, oh, yes. That's it. That's that's what we do. And I do think, you know, we, you know, we there's just that fear of and, you know, we're talking about it earlier too of not knowing the answer or if we do take a risk, you know, is it going to be successful? And if it's, you know, really doesn't happen or it's not successful, then we are a bad administrator, a bad physician, you know, leader, whatever that role is.

Adrienne Lloyd: 20:51

And so, being willing to to take space to both figure out better options and and to create, you know, the opportunity that we're gonna try things and it's not gonna work. I think that I always call it, like, a positive, you know, questioning positive questioning attitude. You know, we wanna say, like, you know, innovation, but, you know what? Yeah. We're gonna try a dozen things and half of them are not gonna work.

Adrienne Lloyd: 21:13

Yeah. But, like, let's try them with thought, but, you know, relatively quickly versus dragging them out and then, you know, continuing for it to be iterative versus stagnant, I think, is so so key for sure.

Carrie Koh: 21:25

Right. I mean, just taking action relieves stress. Right? And it's like that is the definition of innovation. Like, it's an innovation that's never gonna work the 1st time or it's not gonna be innovative.

Carrie Koh: 21:36

Right? It shouldn't work the first time. Right. And, you know, it's just it's so interesting, like, when when you trust that. Right?

Carrie Koh: 21:43

When you trust that failure means nothing about you, when you are really tapped into what you know Yeah. What you believe, and are choosing that calm confidence, nonjudgment of yourself, then that's when you can really, tap into your own creativity. You know, it's connecting with yourself first, and that's something that 100% is a skill set. I have grown so I there's no way I was doing that when I was Earlier. When I was, you know, in my traditional health care role.

Carrie Koh: 22:19

Like, there was just there's too much speed, too much too much coming at you, too much, pressure to be, to do, to have the answer. And I look back and I think, you know, that connecting with yourself is the most important skill set that I wish I had then

Adrienne Lloyd: 22:40

Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 22:40

Because it it slows things down even when there there's always chaos. Like Yeah. There's always stuff coming at you. Like, you can't change that, but your reaction does not have to meet the frequency of that, you know, everything's Right. An emergency.

Carrie Koh: 22:56

Yeah. And that's and that's when we see those leaders that are awesome, and you're like, oh my gosh. He's such

Carrie Koh: 23:01

she is such a good leader. Right. That's what they're doing.

Adrienne Lloyd: 23:04

Yeah. That's one of the things I know both of us work with clients on very early on is, you know, I always go through, like, the what not to do list or, you know, what are those things that are consuming your time, your energy that really either you don't have to be there, you can give your other, you know, one of your team members an opportunity to kind of step into that place so that you have space. And ultimately, it's so that you can move the bigger things forward, but the main reason is so that you get time to have those moments for for reflection and to really, you know, continue to maintain where you need to be. Are there, like, practices or even questions, you know, things that you found that you would give people who are listening and want to be like, how do I listen

Carrie Koh: 23:50

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a couple things because I think, you know, what you said is really important. Right? When there's, you know, when you have so much on your plate, it's like, how can you possibly Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 24:03

Do this? So I really think this kind of starts with, going through a delegation process even if you feel like you have no one to delegate to. Because it it brings us awareness. It's it's like I have a ton of tools, but, like, let's let's do a tool that will actually get you more time and help you practice more awareness. So I was, at a conference early on in my entrepreneurial career, and there was a a project manager from NASA there.

Carrie Koh: 24:35

Mhmm. And he was, like, the project manager who, like, sent the first images, back from Pluto. It took him 15 years to do it, and he's probably the reason that Pluto was no longer a plant. But, but he Edward, like, how do you, like, keep a a project like that going? He's like, every single thing that you are doing can be down to 5 steps.

Carrie Koh: 24:59

And so I use that 5 step rule from that talk, and so I look at delegation as 5 steps. So one of the things that, you know, I think is really helpful for people is, you know, I have a lot of people coming on the calls and they're, like, so overwhelmed and and they're, like, listing off everything that they need to do. It's like, okay. Well, what's the one thing right now? What's the one, like, urgent thing?

Carrie Koh: 25:22

And they'll say the thing. Right? Whatever it is. Yeah. But they have no one to delegate to.

Carrie Koh: 25:25

It's like, okay. Well, let's walk through these steps. So if everybody everything can be, you know, 5 steps. What are the 5 steps of delegation? So it's really acknowledging what is the constraint I am coming up against.

Carrie Koh: 25:37

Like, what is the problem that I am trying to solve? Most of the time, that's a really hard question. Yeah. So it, like, slows things down to say, okay. Well, I'm really trying to solve the fact that, you know, whatever.

Carrie Koh: 25:55

We need to get more patients through. We've got a waiting list, whatever it is. Right? It's like, okay. So what is the actual desired result or the task from this delegation?

Carrie Koh: 26:06

Right. K? So notice even if you're delegating to yourself, you're, like, creating some clarity. Well, you know, then you look at well, I need a, you know, I need a to get this group of people together. We need to have a conversation about this.

Carrie Koh: 26:21

I need I need to get buy in this. And it's like, okay. We can really look at, like, what those steps are. And every time we get to the second question, people are like, oh, well, I just need to do this. Right?

Carrie Koh: 26:32

It's like this big long thing. They're like, oh, wait. But I just need to call that 1 person. Right? But then it's like, okay.

Carrie Koh: 26:38

But what's the importance of this? Why is this a priority? Right. What is the importance in where you're trying to get to? Why is this support?

Carrie Koh: 26:46

Well, I don't know if it is because I got this thing over here. Right? Right. So it, like, allows you to ask that question. And then one of the next pieces, which is really important is, like, what are my core values in executing or delegating this?

Carrie Koh: 27:01

And that seems like what do you mean core values? That's just something that's, like, up on the wall with the organization. But, like, think about it. Like, if my core value is transparency, and that's important to me because I hate when other people make decisions and I have no idea why they're making these decisions, then how am I going to behave differently whether I'm delegating Right. Or whether I'm doing it myself.

Carrie Koh: 27:22

Right? So it's a really important thing. And then it's really asking yourself, okay. So, what skill sets do I need in order to do this? Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 27:33

Or why is this person that I have in mind to delegate the exact right person? And so when you just go through and answer these questions, number 1, it's taking that action Yeah. And it's slowing down. Right? It's not getting a meeting and then creating more work like we do in meetings.

Carrie Koh: 27:49

It's like really thinking through it. So I would recommend walking through those steps. Just pick one thing on your to do list

Adrienne Lloyd: 27:59

and walk through those steps. No. I love that. I think the always thinking about the what versus the who. I think we always go in delegation particularly to, like, the who.

Adrienne Lloyd: 28:07

Who can we delegate to? And there's there's a time and a role for that, especially if you're trying to, like, build your bench and help people develop. But it really when you're looking at your own workload or the projects, the initiatives, and organizations, like, okay. What things do you really have to be involved in? What needs to happen next?

Adrienne Lloyd: 28:23

Because you may not be able to and you may not be able to I'm sure you found too. Like, you may not be able to delegate the entire thing, but there's a lot of components underneath that to really even just get it started. And then I think, components underneath that to really even just get it started. And then I think, 2, going through and saying, like, what really I was just, speaking with a client this morning and who's we're going through kind of setting the next quarter of initiatives, and it was just, you know, kind of listing. My coach had the same approach with me yesterday.

Adrienne Lloyd: 28:46

She's like, you can pick 2 things, like, for the month March. Like, what are 2 things? And then, of course, I tried to add subtopics under there because, you know, they add by 20 other things. But, you know, we were we were making through, and it's like, here's the top three things that he wanted to move forward over the next few months, back that up to March. It was, like, really under those 2, you know, 2 of those things, part of them sometimes can just be having a conversation.

Adrienne Lloyd: 29:08

And a lot of times you've and then we start to overthink, I at least I do, of we wanna get everything perfect before we have that conversation, before we have that meeting. And a lot of times, we already know many of the, you know, things that we need have and we know those similar outcomes. So under you know, giving ourselves to, like, what really, really has to happen. And it depends on the players and the relationships and where you are with, you know, those things. But what really has to happen for you to move that forward, it's often a lot less than what you think it may be, to really get it started.

Adrienne Lloyd: 29:37

So I think those are great, great questions. Maybe we can, have those as an outline. So

Carrie Koh: 29:43

absolutely. I I love that. I love that. Because quite frankly, like, we don't know, like, the next, you know, half. Right?

Carrie Koh: 29:51

Like, you have to take the first step because that informs the second step. Right. Right? And, like, when you're just open to the first step, like, you are going to get more information. And with that information, it's going to shift what you do next.

Carrie Koh: 30:05

And so it's it's patience. Yeah. Right? Which none of us are good at. No.

Carrie Koh: 30:09

But it's like, okay. Well, what if it's just one step at a time? Like, over what if overwhelm was a choice? Because I'm making it this big project, but right now, it's just having one conversation. Right?

Carrie Koh: 30:21

Yeah.

Adrienne Lloyd: 30:22

I know, Kira, you work with both teams and individuals. Is there something that you've seen that's been helpful? A, you know, are there any advices, people are trying to move initiatives forward, create change about, you know, having individual approach versus, you know, when to kind of know you need to get everyone together as a team, or any just overall thoughts that you've you've seen be more successful when you are bringing if you are bringing a team together, you know, what are things that people need to keep in mind if you're addressing something like trying to find burnout or you're really trying to, you know, make change in a group?

Carrie Koh: 30:53

Yeah. That's a really good question. I think, you know, it's always beneficial to bring in the team. However, you know, every team has its own dynamic. Right?

Carrie Koh: 31:05

Every team has its own dynamic. And what I find when a leader brings me in to to work with the team is that there is inherently a lack of trust within the team. Yeah. And that comes, from the form of, like, people not doing what they say they're gonna do. Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 31:23

Right? Not not holding their own standards for integrity, because of burnout, because of over overwhelm. Right? But, you know, when we can spend real time having real conversations about feeling safe within the team Yeah. Having trust within the team, that's where the actual solutions come from.

Carrie Koh: 31:45

Most people just wanna you know, there's always presentations on psychological safety and all the things, and they come at it from such an academic place. Yeah. And that defeats the whole purpose. Like, can we just know that there's research and this stuff is important? Like, we don't need to be connections.

Carrie Koh: 32:01

You know? But, like right. So it's like but what does that mean to each individual? What does trust mean for you? How how do you trust people?

Carrie Koh: 32:10

Right?

Adrienne Lloyd: 32:10

Right.

Carrie Koh: 32:11

When do you feel safe to you know, when do you feel seen and heard? And and, obviously, those those questions are customized, but it's like I see people leaning away from the uncomfortable conversations. I see the leaders saying, oh, let's not talk about that. It's like, well, then you're gonna spend a lot of money to bring me in and not get the results. Right.

Carrie Koh: 32:30

So, you know, so then it's like, well, let's let's you and I work together so that you can feel a little more safe and vulnerable. And those are words that people don't wanna talk about. Right? Those are the things. But I I can tell you after going through your, like, major adversity and death and every one of us has had them, we all have experienced that.

Adrienne Lloyd: 32:51

Yeah.

Carrie Koh: 32:51

And so we're with, you know, resisting bringing it into our world professionally, like, we are one person. This is part of showing up as who you are. This is part of, like, feeling good about showing up is really, like, aligning with that authentic Yeah. Piece within you.

Adrienne Lloyd: 33:12

Yeah. No. I agree. And I think that some of my, I talked about this in a previous podcast, but, like, some of my moments of greatest connection with my team were ones where, you know, I truly was at that point either of just full overwhelm and all the all the all the kind of situation maybe can come tumbling out, but in the more poised moments where those moments of, like, vulnerability of being able to say, you know what? Yeah.

Adrienne Lloyd: 33:33

Here's what's been working, and here's what I I recognize is not working. I wanna also hear from you guys what all what you see that's not been working, and, also, here's the vision of what we can try to create together, and I need your help. And so really, you know, bringing it back to that, like, we're all human. We're all in this together. We don't not not not a single one of us know all the answers or what the exact, you know, next 20 steps are, But having that connection is so so key to just start rebuilding that trust, whether you've been in the role for 10 years and things haven't been changing or you've come in new.

Adrienne Lloyd: 34:05

I think it still can be a very similar, you know, flow to those conversations. And just really knowing that when you do get the concerns, when you do get that feedback that things are they're frustrated, that it's not it's not personal. Most of the time, it's not personal. So Right.

Carrie Koh: 34:20

And most people stop there, by the way. Right. They stop at at the problem. They stop at the complaining. They get everybody okay.

Carrie Koh: 34:26

Everybody just wants to be seen and heard, so it becomes a complaint test. Right. And, like, that's not where this stops. Right? Like, that's that's the conversation we have around, like, okay.

Carrie Koh: 34:35

What's the current state? Right? And what is it that you want? Like, when we can get people from like, we wanna know what's happening. Like, we need to hear the the dirty truth.

Carrie Koh: 34:44

Right. But it's like and, like, let's think about what you want, what you want as a team, what you're capable of, and then what are your solutions for it. Like, when we can get people into that solution place, then it takes the pressure off the leader, and it it helps the leader just trust their team. Right? And it helps the team feel heard and understood, and so it's just getting rid of the culture.

Carrie Koh: 35:08

I I work with this this group that was, like, had such a culture of complaining, and it's just like, at what point are we no longer available Right. For that as our culture? Like, there are some decisions that have to be made, and it starts from the top Right. When, you know, what you're allowing. Right.

Carrie Koh: 35:23

And that takes some bravery.

Adrienne Lloyd: 35:25

Yeah. I'm working on a presentation and one of the slides that's in there is, like, the best way to predict the future is to create it. And I love, like, the create word too because I think shifting that mindset, that approach from the complaining of just this is where we are to, like, this is where we want to go and how do we, like, create the future for ourselves. I think shifting into that energy is just just so important. But I love that.

Adrienne Lloyd: 35:50

Well, Carrie, we could talk all day, but what's one thing looking back that you wish a piece of advice that you wish you would have given yourself 10, 15, 20 years ago Mhmm. That might help someone else. So much, I know. But Oh,

Carrie Koh: 36:03

you know, you are good enough. No. I love that one. Don't have to prove. You have nothing to prove.

Carrie Koh: 36:12

I think that when I look and part of that's, you know, with getting older, but but I look at how much stress that I invoked in myself Yeah. Because I felt like I had to know the answer. I didn't feel safe to ask question Yeah. Because I thought I just needed to know. Right.

Carrie Koh: 36:32

And and if I could just give myself permission to just ask questions for greater understanding, like, that's how you feel that sense of ease. And that is it's an easy thing to do. Slow down, and what's the next question I can ask?

Adrienne Lloyd: 36:49

I love that. I love that. Well, you all are enough. So thank you so much. Thank you, Carrie, for being here today, and we will share Carrie's information so you can reach out to her if you have questions or potentially interested in having her work with one of your physicians or leaders or one of your team.

Adrienne Lloyd: 37:06

But, just thank you all for being here today, and that is

Carrie Koh: 37:10

a wrap. Alright. Thank you so much. Thank you.