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Technology's daily show (formerly the Technology Brothers Podcast). Streaming live on X and YouTube from 11 - 2 PM PST Monday - Friday. Available on X, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
You're watching TBPN. I forgot we're gonna start on horse camp. We How
Speaker 2:could you forget?
Speaker 1:It is
Speaker 2:The horse has a fitor a fedora.
Speaker 1:Tuesday, 10/07/2025, we are live from the TBPN UltraDome, the Temple Of Technology.
Speaker 2:The Fortress Of Finance. The capital. Capital. Fantastic
Speaker 1:day today. Jordy did get food poisoning yesterday. We went out to can we say where we went? Can we say who were you talking to? I don't exactly remember the rules, but
Speaker 2:I don't think we can discuss the discussions. Okay. But I think we can say that we are with a a mag seven
Speaker 1:But if we say the event that we were at, then it's obvious who we're We talking
Speaker 2:we had a magnificent evening.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. We had a magnificent evening with a magnificent seven. Yeah. And you can probably just figure out who it is by looking at what events
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a lot of companies in the mag seven.
Speaker 1:Not not Seven of them.
Speaker 2:Well, we did we did get to hang out with David and Ben Yeah. From Acquired as well, which was super fun. We're gonna have them drop by the studio tomorrow for that. Which I'm looking forward to.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna ask them to quickly summarize the full history of every technology company.
Speaker 2:And every luxury goods.
Speaker 1:And every luxury. And every company ever, actually. And Costco too. Throw that in.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Retail.
Speaker 1:It's good one liner in Costco.
Speaker 2:Name name every person on Costco's team.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But we did have a fantastic evening. Although Jordy did get food poisoning.
Speaker 2:I think Ryan Ryan Walsh, how did you get food poisoning while with a Mag seven CEO? Good question. There was two types of fish served at dinner.
Speaker 1:There were two types?
Speaker 2:And I indulged in both.
Speaker 1:That was That was nice gift of fish.
Speaker 2:There was that crudo and then there Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:I had a lot of the crudo. The crudo was not the Okay. I'm fine.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'm fine.
Speaker 1:But I I I think it was because I had a glass of the Sancerre, the wine. And you did not partake in the wine and I think the the alcohol I'm
Speaker 2:punished for it.
Speaker 1:It it served as it it it detoxified my stomach and prevented me from getting sick.
Speaker 2:The toxins from the alcohol.
Speaker 1:It was poisoning the poison food instead of poisoning That's it. Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's it.
Speaker 1:Anyway, what a day. It did we yes. We talked a lot about AI slop, AI video slop. And I had this thesis. It's been kicking around in my head for a while, and I thought it would be interesting to kind of relay my thought process after talking to a bunch of creators and folks working in big tech.
Speaker 1:So, we've been talking about the AI video stuff, and and the the the wave has been fascinating where Vibes was, like, immediately jumping to, like, this is infinite jest. It's terrible. And same thing with Sora two. Like, we jumped way past, like, any of the normal discourse. There was a little bit of discourse about the electricity stuff and the water.
Speaker 1:My water bill is gonna go up because of this. There was some talk of AI
Speaker 2:That discourse is still going on, to be clear. It is. There's a post here. We can pull it up. I'll put it at the top of the timeline while you continue on.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But but I thought about there was a time when the narrative around this type of content, like fake content, doctored content, fake news, AI content.
Speaker 2:It says me watching Stephen Hawking drop into a sick half pipe McTwist while my electricity costs triple. Honestly, so down.
Speaker 1:It's great, but it's
Speaker 2:worth it.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is one of the greatest AI videos. And and and that gets to my point, which is that I don't regard that video as AI slop. I would like to be shown that video. I don't wanna be shown an endless stream of AI slop that is bad, but there are obviously creative ways to use these tools. There are even ways to reappropriate the tools that where the joke of the video is that it's an AI video, and it's, like, self aware.
Speaker 1:And those are very interesting. I was watching Casey Neistat's video all about his reaction to Sora, and he used a lot of AI video generated from Sora in the video. And so, like, there was a time when the answer and the call from the public was, we need to build an AI detector, and we need to cordon this content off in its own tab. And that's kind of what MetaVibes is doing, and that's what Ben Thompson was talking about. He was like, I have not been enjoying my Instagram experience because I'll be scrolling, then I'll see some AI content.
Speaker 1:And I'm in this active mode again of, like, is this real or not? As opposed to on Meta Vibes, to his point, he was like, I can just lay back and look at it and it's like a screensaver and it's chill and I And you've know
Speaker 2:a lot. Right? You've been vlogging
Speaker 1:for long time. Also, Ben Thompson kind of reversed his position and was like because he was he was saying he was bullish on Vibes and, like, less interested in Sora, but then he was like, look, the charts speak for themselves. Like, people clearly like Sora a lot more than Vibes, just looking at the growth of the of the App Store. And so the but there was a call for, like, let's build a detector. I think it's a bad idea for two reasons.
Speaker 1:One is it's this Red Queen's race between AI generation and AI detection. Like, original did you ever look at generative adversarial networks, Tyler?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:For sure. Like, can you describe, like, the thesis of a GAN and why it works?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So it's basically that this was, like, the first kind of way that that generally worked of of producing images. Yeah. So there's like two parts and they're basically acting against each other. Yep.
Speaker 4:So so one part is the the the generator. So it will like create an image.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:And then there's the other part which is the detector and it tries to figure out if it's AI or not.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:And then they basically go against each other. They're trying to beat each other at all times. Then basically, you just, like because you're training the detector based off, like, sometimes you give it a real image, sometimes you give it a fake image. Yep. And then slowly
Speaker 1:And if it can detect the AI image, that gets negative points in the reward function. And if it can't, and if it thinks, yeah, this is real, then it gets upvoted from, hey. You did a good job generating that AI. So, like, effectively, a lot of these models that are AI generators have AI detectors, like, built into them. Like, it's part of the training process.
Speaker 1:I don't know exactly how the diffusion models work. I think they work similarly. I think that that concept from the generative adversarial network has been employed and and repurposed. But it seems like it's kind of a it's kind of this, like, endless arms race between, like, you build a detector and then the generator gets better. And so I'm not even sure if technically it'll work.
Speaker 1:What do you think?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, so so there's like a lot of people want the detectors especially for text. Yep. But the text is a lot harder. Right?
Speaker 4:Because there's just less signal. Like, there's only in a sentence, there's only, you know, like 20 Not 30 terabytes fast. Yeah. Yeah. You just can't get that much data out of it.
Speaker 4:Where with video and and photos, it's actually much easier to, like, encode some, like, meaning that, like, like, there there's this thing about, like, printers. They have these, like, little dots Yep. And it, like, traces the printer. Yep. But you can't see it because there's just, like it's super faint and Yep.
Speaker 4:Very small. You can do the same thing with images where you can encode, like, you just change the images, like, just barely up a little bit brightness, down a little bit brightness.
Speaker 1:And you lose it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. So you can
Speaker 1:Like a slight crop and a slight tweak to the contrast. And it's probably the same thing in text where if you just add one extra space or one extra period or change one word, all of a sudden, like, the the the the the whatever you've encoded in the overall text is just not gonna read as much.
Speaker 4:Yes. So, like, with with text, you're basically, like, seeing the Yeah. You're seeing everything. Yep. But with an image, it you can, like, kind of change stuff just a tiny bit to where you're actually, like, seeing something else.
Speaker 4:Right? Yep. There's this famous example where with the image classifiers, you can, like, adversarially train against them to where, like, you have a image of a panda, but it thinks it's a dog because you just updated the
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 4:The the the pixels slightly.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And even with, like, a Sora watermarking, like, immediately I saw a watermark removal tool that just does the in painting just on those Yeah.
Speaker 4:Watermarks. But what I'm saying is Yeah. You you should, in theory, it should be much easier to create, like, a classifier that can figure out if an image is AI or not. Like, if it's directly from Sora.
Speaker 1:For a while, but you don't think it'll you don't think it'll be this endless race where, like, the AI image generators will just get better and better and better and, like, the AI detectors will just always be, like, a little bit behind?
Speaker 4:That could be true. I think also OpenAI probably has some incentive to to have something that's like a classifier
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 4:Or at least something that's, like, able to be classified on
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like a watermark. Yep. And if you think people will mostly just be using OpenAI or or Google's Yeah. Yeah. Image video generations instead of open source stuff
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Because it'll always be like a little bit ahead.
Speaker 2:Do you think that Apple will make any moves in terms of embedding anything in meta in like the metadata to like prove that this was taken as an unaltered video from an Apple device?
Speaker 1:Yep. For sure. Some of that should be fakable, but I think that for the most part, that's definitely coming.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It already is there to some degree in the metadata. That's maybe a little bit hard to spoof, but there's always a way around it. But there's definitely some stuff that you can do with cryptography to to, like, sign, basically, like, sign the image as, from this at the hardware level Yeah. From this hardware device. I think that there will be this endless race between these two, but there will always be people that figure out how to sneak in something because it's like, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, then, like, you can prove that it's from an iPhone, but what if you film a screen that's AI generated? Well, then then you have a video on your phone that says it was taken with an iPhone, but and it's signed, it's actually AI generated. So there'll always be these ways around it. So I think that it's a little bit of, like, like, somewhat of a rate ways to resources. We should probably do it to some degree, at least be able to classify it, but that's not really a perfect solution.
Speaker 1:The other the the other, like, side of this is that I don't know that we need to build AI slop detectors into large media platforms because the problem isn't AI. It's slop. Like, the people enjoy seeing the Stephen Hawking at the X Games video. You don't like, we already have tools to filter out slop. They're called algorithmic feeds.
Speaker 1:If you don't like Slop, you will swipe past it, and it automatically and you automatically get served other content, and that just happens naturally. And so there is a problem with algorithmic feeds, though. They have they're pretty far from their final form, and we should go through a little bit of the history. So they used to just focus on the, the initial action of choosing to watch a video. So on YouTube, for instance, they would rank videos in your algorithmic feed based on click through rate.
Speaker 1:So they'd show you thumbnails. If you clicked, that was the only signal that went into the algorithmic feed that the video was good because it got a click. And so what people would do is they do clickbait. And then in the thumbnail and title, be like, I bought a Bugatti. And then you watch the video to the end, and it's like, actually, the person just went to
Speaker 2:the They bought a store toy
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Bugatti.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah. And so mister beast had this thesis of, like, clickbait that delivers. If he says he's going to crush a Lamborghini, he's actually gonna do it. And so YouTube changed to view duration and watch time.
Speaker 1:So they shifted to being more watch time focused, and this did really solve the clickbait problem because videos that earn clicks but not watch time were deprioritized. So you can be very high CTR but low AVD, and you do not go viral in the algorithm. So this led to relatively high user satisfaction, but there still is the problem of being glued to your phone watching something that is engaging. You watch all to the all the way to the end, But after you're done and you're reflecting on, like, that hour that you spent watching that video, you're like, why did I waste an hour watching that? Because it was essentially slop.
Speaker 1:Even if it wasn't created with AI, it was not good. And Yeah. The signal to the algorithm right now is I love that video. I watched a 100% of it. But internally, you know that that was a waste of time, and so you can churn.
Speaker 1:I wound up churning from TikTok at one point because I downloaded the app, like, years ago, scrolled, and was like, yeah. This is some good stuff. This is interesting. But then afterwards, I was just like, this is candy. I'm not interested in this, and I just uninstalled the app, and I've never haven't been on since.
Speaker 1:And so there's the there's the there's what I think is like the third phase, which is companies are starting to do now. So phase one is click through rate optimization. Then you get to AVD, average view duration, watch time optimization. Third is ARPU, like, average revenue per user optimization. So it's not enough to get someone to watch a full video they hate because then they might not open the app again.
Speaker 1:I personally turn from TikTok for this reason. Recommendation algorithm that optimizes for average revenue per user over an entire year is gonna focus on mitigating app churn because it doesn't matter that you just got, you know, one really great video. They watched it all, but then they never came back. You want to optimize for they came back a lot over the entire year, but that can still lead to brain rot. Like, you can brain rot your users into being very high average revenue per user for a year for a while, but eventually, they get so brain dead that they lose their jobs, drop out of society.
Speaker 1:They become depressed. They stop being good customers. They stop being good consumers, which is something we can't have in the American economy. And so my answer to this and my pitch for these algorithmic platforms is to optimize for LTV, true l t LTV. The lifetime value of a user is usually estimated over a couple years.
Speaker 1:If you're a startup, you look kind of crazy if you come in with like a five year LTV. But if you think about how long I've been using YouTube, it's basically been my entire life and it's been like twenty years or something I've been on that platform since it started in 02/2005. And so, really, you should be modeling the
Speaker 2:You're just saying YouTube is twenty years old really makes you feel old.
Speaker 1:Totally. Totally. But you should be you should be actually considering the full human lifespan. Like, algorithmic video platforms should basically work like this. If I show this kid a brain rot video, I might be able to show some some cheap toy ads right now or some mobile game ads or something like that.
Speaker 1:But if I show this kid an educational video and I teach them how to program, teach them how to be a business person, then they go get a high paying job. And in twenty years, I'll be able to show them ads for Ferraris. And if I show them ads for Ferraris, I'll make more money discounted in today's dollars. And so you should have an incentive at the algorithmic level to actually upscale, actually engage people in having, like, a meaningful life where they wind up generating enough
Speaker 2:So you're saying YouTube should actually create their own drop shipping course to help everyone become financially independent.
Speaker 1:It could be a variety of things. Anything that leads to a fruitful life. Right? So the current
Speaker 2:crop Yeah. I think I think it's I think it's just that tension between, you know, helping create a more valuable user over time
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And extracting as much attention Totally.
Speaker 1:That you
Speaker 2:can get value from in the short term.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Short term versus long term
Speaker 2:And then attention there is that, you know, all these scaled platforms are public companies that need to Yep. For sure. Results today.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:And so there's there's
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so tug award. None of the current recommendation algorithms are at all tuned to the average American's lifespan, which is seventy eight years. But I think they should be. They don't have enough data for this, and I don't know if they will how they would solve for this before they have a full cohort.
Speaker 1:Like, it's gonna take YouTube's twenty years old, but the average American's 70 so it lives seventy eight years. It's gonna take another fifty years to get a full just one cohort to be like, okay. Now we know that now we know what happens if you show kids this video when they're young or this video, and we saw how their entire life played out. And turns out that this one was a better customer, so we should show them more of this. Like, that's the feedback loop.
Speaker 1:It's a 78 feedback loop, basically. It's crazy. May maybe not seventy eight, but maybe fifty years. Like, it's a really long feedback loop. It's gonna take a long time to get all that data, but that's how these algorithms should work.
Speaker 1:And so I I have no idea how they will solve for this before they have full cohort. It's gonna be some rough estimation, but I continue to believe it should be the guiding light of all the stewards of large algorithmic content platforms. Like, even if you don't have the data, even if you can't just train the algorithm on that, you should still be
Speaker 2:thinking about the type of bite dance, right, that people would talk about in China, the the Chinese version of TikTok shows like science and math videos
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 2:While you're getting your children are getting shown Yeah. You know, slob. And they
Speaker 1:have like a ten thousand year plan over there. They're thinking in decades. And so you as the steward of an algorithmic platform should be thinking in decades, and you should be thinking about if I take this, you know, quarterly earnings bump right now, but I wind up ruining all my customers' lives and they wind up being bad consumers, that's a financial issue. Like, that that that does work within the capitalist framework. And so I think you should build an algorithm that optimizes for your users leading more flourishing lives so they can ultimately afford more expensive things and make you more money.
Speaker 1:It's capitalism at best.
Speaker 2:Anyway Perfect blend of of techno optimism and hyper capitalism.
Speaker 1:Yes. For what it's worth
Speaker 2:in one in one theory. I like it.
Speaker 1:The the response to this, I gave a I gave an abbreviated version of this pitch and the response is magnificent. I think I think it I I think it resonated very well, which I was excited about.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what else is magnificent? What else?
Speaker 1:Ramp. Ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Easy use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
Speaker 1:Go to ramp.com.
Speaker 2:Another magnificent thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Actually, future member of the MAG eight, Sam Altman Yes. Joining the show on Friday to talk about We're very excited for this. This is a real picture of him.
Speaker 1:Yes. He's been hitting the gym This
Speaker 2:hasn't really been in wide circulation, but we kind of expect this to be one of the default headshots that he uses going forward. He looks looks fantastic here.
Speaker 1:So We're very
Speaker 2:excited. Very excited for this. Lots of questions that we have Yeah. Around Sora. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The real plan is Yeah. And I'm looking forward to it. It'll be noon Pacific on Friday. And in other news, Morgan Housel, friend of the show, has launched his new book, The Art of Spending Money.
Speaker 1:Is he coming on soon? We gotta get him on
Speaker 2:the news. I just sent him a message. Okay. Tell him to help out. I I kinda botched it.
Speaker 2:I was supposed to email him a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Me But
Speaker 2:we'll work on getting him on hopefully tomorrow or Thursday. Do that. Very excited to read the book myself. I'm assuming a lot of the book will be about ramp, but but which we obviously know quite a lot about. Yes.
Speaker 2:I'm interested to see what else he's Yes. Writing about.
Speaker 1:Yes. This is the psychology of corporate cards. That's the
Speaker 2:that's the next That's the
Speaker 1:next book. Feel like, is he doing spawn con now? What? That's what we should write.
Speaker 2:Good stuff.
Speaker 1:Anyway, restream.io. One livestream, 30 plus destination, multistream to reach your audience wherever they are. Get signed up for free, folks. Fabricated knowledge, Doug O'Laughlin. He was on the show yesterday.
Speaker 1:Had a great time hanging out with him. He says, oh my god. Face plant. Face plant. Face plant.
Speaker 1:Oracle lost nearly $100,000,000 from rentals of NVIDIA Blackwell chips, which arrived this year. That's partly because there's a period between when Oracle gets its data centers ready for customers
Speaker 2:And he's bolding this part.
Speaker 1:And when customers start using and paying for them, the documents show. It's not clear what causes the gap or how Oracle plans to shorten it.
Speaker 2:And so, of course, he's referencing an article by The Information this morning, an absolute bombshell Bombshell. They dropped internal Oracle data show financial challenge of renting out NVIDIA chips. And obviously, Doug is highlighting that, yes, it's possible to lose money between the time when you invest a lot of money in something and when you can actually sell the service. Yeah. So not not a huge surprise there.
Speaker 1:So Joe Weisenthal had a little take on this. He said in the is is this is this from him? This is this is from Bloomberg terminal, but I don't know if it's an information article put into a
Speaker 2:Bloomberg terminal. There's another post here from Dolly Baldwin.
Speaker 1:You're read that one.
Speaker 2:He says, information article is stupid. If you look at the beginning of a site ramp, obviously, there's no margin LOL. So anyways, timeline. Putting this one in the truth zone. Indeed.
Speaker 2:I think we need to ourselves.
Speaker 1:Indeed. The the Financial Times had an interesting breakdown of OpenAI's current corporate structure, which
Speaker 2:Not enough Every red string here.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Every time you think it can get it's like, oh, oh, well, OpenAI has 12 different organizations within OpenAI. It it can't get any crazier than this. Well, they go and do deals with every single company in the world, apparently. So this
Speaker 2:Yeah. Every time I list off how many companies are riding with OpenAI and how many companies current market caps depend on their partnership with OpenAI Yeah. I always leave off too. I'm always like, think of like, NVIDIA, Oracle, and CoreWeave. And then it's like, oh, there's actually Broadcom and AMD.
Speaker 2:Yep. There's also SoftBank. Yep. And also Microsoft. Yep.
Speaker 2:And it's just all over. And the interesting thing that, you know, we had been talking about off air yesterday is this dynamic where you kind of have to assume there'll be some type of correction in the coming two years. Sure. Not a super bold statement to make.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We'll get to And
Speaker 2:OpenAI could very well be the only company in this crazy web that's private, which could be an advantage in an environment where we're seeing, you know, massive drawdowns. And just due to OpenAI effectively controlling your share price.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I like this take. I thought what's interesting is that being public during a major correction is not a death sentence. Like Amazon got through it. They saw a massive drawdown.
Speaker 1:But is being private during a massive drawdown an asset? Is that something that you should be optimizing for? Does it matter at all? Because in some ways, if you if you go out, you're public, you raise a ton of money, you have a fortress balance sheet. Yes.
Speaker 1:You might have employees who are disappointed because their their their personal financials are being mark to market and there's and there's and they're way down, that would be emotionally rough. Right? But at the same time, it is possible that at least it's public and at least you know there's some liquidity and you're not sitting there wondering like, am I is this company actually worth zero? Like, you're being mark to market and it's like if you're at Amazon in 02/2001 and you're down I think it went down like 90%. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oracle with withstood a a more than 80% drawdown Yeah. Between 2000 and 02/2002.
Speaker 1:I really wonder how that was Like, as if you were if you were there at Oracle and you were like, I'm about to buy a house, and then you're like, I'm about to buy a Shack. Like, was was it that like, was it that rough? Like, did you like, were like, did that emotionally affect
Speaker 2:your work?
Speaker 1:But do but did it emotionally affect your work?
Speaker 2:Like,
Speaker 1:Were you like, I'm I'm too depressed to do the database migration? Like, I'm too depressed to have call a friend
Speaker 2:that retired in their early forties Yeah. Kind of after the after the .com craziness. Yeah. And they sold not at the top. They sold about they they exited the majority of their position.
Speaker 2:I won't name the company prior, you know, six months out from the top. Sure. And so for a while, they looked really silly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And ultimately, they were telling me all the peers that they had Mhmm. Were still working to achieve like, the wealth that they had on paper during two thousand, twenty years later. Yeah. Right? And so you can again, going through these is is I feel like the venture industry broadly had to go through this somewhat, obviously, in 2000 and 2022, 2023.
Speaker 2:Right? Everybody had these crazy paper marks that suddenly were were not not living up to expectations
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or or at least There
Speaker 1:are some crazy, crazy examples. I don't know if Akamai is one of them. There's a few companies. I think Akamai was actually it it still is not at its all time high of the .com boom. Because it IPO ed at 300 and in 1999, it was at $327 a share, and now it's at 76.
Speaker 1:I I I never know if if the if the all the the splits are accurate and whatnot, but there's been a bunch of companies that traded down. I mean, Akamai went down by 99% and then built back up and saw, you know, a 50 x gain over the next twenty years as they built back. And it was like, was always a real company. It was just massively overvalued in the .com boom. But it will be a oh, this is a funny post you just put in the timeline.
Speaker 1:There's a bubble in people calling for bubbles. Calling for bubbles or calling bubbles? Are you calling for a bubble? We pray for a bubble. You don't
Speaker 2:come off used to pray for a bubble like this.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We did. We did.
Speaker 1:Anyway.
Speaker 2:I do remember in 2023 during, you know, post SVB, I I wouldn't go so far as to say I was actually praying for a bubble. Yeah. But I thought it'd be crazy if our industry went through something like that. Yeah. Quite that crazy again.
Speaker 2:And sure enough, we got it. And AI, the current AI hype cycle hasn't even got to dance with low interest rates yet.
Speaker 1:It hasn't gotten to dance with low interest or leverage really. Imagine that. Or leverage. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Everyone's everyone's saying it's 1999. Not many people saying whether or not it's January, December 1990 because that is important. What date did the actual stock market peak in 1999? I have I have a search here. It was actually 03/10/2000.
Speaker 2:03/10/2000.
Speaker 1:So if it's January and you're like, oh, I'm calling it's it's 1999. I'm I'm going bold. I'm calling the top. It's like, no. You're calling if you're calling j if you're calling in January 1999, you're calling yourself fifteen months out from the top, which is a wild amount of time.
Speaker 1:A lot of room to make money. Who knows?
Speaker 2:Yeah. There was, who was it yesterday? Paul Tudor Jones was saying he feels like they're he was on CNBC Yeah. Yesterday saying, hey, things feel overheated, but he was basically calling for like a blow off top. Like he says, in his view, it can get a lot crazier before a correction.
Speaker 2:And again, that feels like the the the general sentiment right now is, you know, Doug on the show yesterday was saying like, look, we're not even most of these companies are not even levered yet. And like Mhmm. That is like almost certainly going to happen. Yeah. Except Oracle.
Speaker 1:They're they're pretty levered, but not that crazy levered. Like, there there is some fake news around the the the five x leverage that's going on over there. It's not quite that big of a deal. But let's switch Famous last words. But first, let's tell you about Privy, wallet infrastructure for every bank.
Speaker 1:Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate on chain infrastructure all through one simple API. Joe Lonsdale is celebrating one of his portfolio companies. He says he's blown away by the talent behind some of these great companies. Just a casual Nobel Prize. So Sonoma Bio's Fred Ramsdell won the 2025 Nobel Prize in medicine for his work on regulatory T cells or Tregs, which act as an emergency break on the immune system.
Speaker 1:Tregs are a critical link in understanding autoimmune disease and advancing immunotherapy more broadly. So congrats to him. He's the co founder, former chief scientific officer and a current adviser to Sonoma Bio, a trailblazer in cell therapies and an ABC portfolio company that ABC has proudly supported from the beginning. He led the team that discovered and characterized the gene FOXP3. Talk about a cool name for a gene, f o x p three.
Speaker 1:I like that. Which plays a critical role in Treg's development leading to a new field of immunotherapies. The thesis continues to be validated with portfolio companies like Orca Bio, which recently received FDA acceptance prior review of its BLA and Orca T in hematologic malignancies. See below.
Speaker 2:Joe just comments cool. Cool. Yeah. Agree. Did
Speaker 1:he comment cool? No. I think I clicked in. I think I clicked in. I was wondering if he commented cool on his own post, which would be some some king a king move.
Speaker 1:Anyway, another ABC portfolio company, Cognition. Boom. The makers of Devon. Yeah. Software engineer.
Speaker 1:Crush your backlog with your personal engineering team. Martin Scrawley has been on a tear. Got your capital breaks down. So Scrawley does it again. He picked a stock that went up 1400% today.
Speaker 1:That is an insane pop. Martin Scully says long s p SPRB. His price target is $500. It was trading at 25 at the time and or I guess even less. It was trading at 8 and it went up
Speaker 2:to $1.52. On on Friday Yes. You could buy one share Yes. Of Bruce Biosciences for $8.78. Wow.
Speaker 2:It's now trading at a $197 per share.
Speaker 1:That is crazy.
Speaker 2:Still sitting at a at a $100,111,000,000 dollar market cap.
Speaker 1:Is it I I I I still don't understand, like, can he can't run a fund, he can trade this. Like, is this financial advice? Like, he seems like he's playing it really fast and loose, but he's clearly calling good stuff and doing research. So appreciate the the work. He's been,
Speaker 2:I think, making a lot of people a lot of money.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So everything's happening. He says his price target is $500 rare disease is his specialty. The ERT for Sanfilippo will be approved, CMC notwithstanding, and be the new standard of care. He said, was working on a presentation when the news was scooped but this drug restores the abnormally high levels of heparan sulfate to normal.
Speaker 1:Without this drug, patients will die at 18, the normal ranges of HS. They may live a normal life. Well, that's really exciting. That seems really good. TJP says, I'll pass already up too much.
Speaker 1:It's just
Speaker 2:who knows? If it goes up a lot, it there's no way it could go up more.
Speaker 1:There's no way. Well, let me tell you about Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design development teams build great products together. Let's get started for free, brother.
Speaker 2:Tyler, start playing around with Figma make in chat GPT. I want I want you to test out the
Speaker 1:The integration.
Speaker 2:That's very interesting. Dev day.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do do you know if those agent builder tools are, like, general availability already?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I I tried to use the agent builder earlier today. Then you have to I I couldn't get it to work because you have to verify your organization.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:And then I it I tried to put in my ID, then it just, like, said failed. Interesting. Don't know. I think yeah. But I'll try it again.
Speaker 4:But it they are generally available.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, that's good. Well, Max Meyer is breaking down the Free Press acquisition. This was announced yesterday. Barry Weiss' Free Press was acquired by Paramount.
Speaker 1:Max has seen so much cynicism and bitterness on the timeline about the Free Press. So let me tell you why I love it as a contributor and why it means so much to many people. The FP is a match made in heaven between writers and readers. We writers can't leave live without readers, and the FP readers are amazing, savvy, thoughtful, opinionated, but kind. I can't tell you how many emails, texts, phone calls, DMs I've received every time I put a piece in the FP.
Speaker 1:These are Americans. I want to know. And the FP is their gathering place. I've written pieces about very random things. Warren Buffett, my brother.
Speaker 1:Not he's not Warren Buffett's not his brother. There's a comma. He says, I've written about Warren Buffett. I've written about my brother. I've written about Yeah.
Speaker 1:A Missouri resort town, the Latter day Saints church, and SpaceX, which is an amazing blessing. And a credit to their smart editors, the FB team and their readers care deeply about America even if they disagree about politics. Some just scroll some of the comment sections on Trump related articles and you'll see the amazing bites and disagreements. What Barry Nellie and the entire FP team have done in three years is now the model for media, make something so good that people would walk over glass to pay their hard earned money for it, not to get through some terrible paywall, but to be part of something. The free press is worth every penny Paramount paid, probably more.
Speaker 1:How often does a talent like Barry come along? And people who work in the world of talent should know this rather than be cynical or conspiratorial. Barry and team have a long way to go from here. This is the beginning. The complainers should watch and learn.
Speaker 1:This is exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I I just looked at this as a way to make CBS News relevant again Yep. To a new important class of readers Yep. A much younger demographic than the CBS audience today Yep. And you look at it as like a trade deal.
Speaker 2:Right? This is a talent acquisition. Yep. Barry Weiss will probably create far more than a $150,000,000 of value just by being a part of CBS. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Also, I mean, I do think that, like I mean, we talk about this a lot, but, like, audience quality is, like, still deeply misunderstood. A lot of people just look at total audience size, impressions. They see every reader as the same value. And that was certainly true in the days of the three major networks, CBS, NBC, ABC. But we're just in a completely different, much more fragmented world.
Speaker 1:And so don't know if they had a million subscribers or something like that, but, the people that opted into the free press's funnel are, probably way more monetizable than the people that are, you know, turning on late night CBS for the, you know, fiftieth time. And so they definitely pulled in interesting people. Pulled in me when they signed Tyler Cowen, and, I've been enjoying his column there. He wrote a wild one about how his favorite new actress is AI. Very controversial.
Speaker 1:He's really leaning into it. It's great. But, Alex Brozzini Bronzini vendor is a perfect example of someone who's a little bit of a free press hater. So the free press on October 6 said, the free press is joining Paramount, and they share a link to the fp.com. They put the link right in there.
Speaker 1:And, Alex says, this post has accrued a 147 likes in four hours, nearly one for every million dollars Paramount thought the free press was worth. And honestly, a 147 likes on x with a link in there to a sub stack is it's a miracle. It's a miracle.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, people are people are laughing. But, yeah, Nick says the the New York Times gets similar likes on Twitter. You're not saying anything meaningful. And, yeah, I don't think anyone believes that Barry Weiss has as big of an audience as Mr. Beast.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't quite matter because it's a different audience and and hitting certain audiences is more valuable than other audiences. Where else should we go? Hat is back in the news. The hat is back in the news. Anthropic hat.
Speaker 2:Break it down. Yeah. Jordan says, the tone of the quote entrepreneurial tech glaze makes me sad for the whole world and all of history. That is a bold statement. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, did we talk about this yesterday? Yeah. I think the I think that Anthropic's campaign is good. I don't think it's and I can see why people want the hat. And Anthropic is a great brand and they have a great team and they have a unique culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they've been able to retain people. It's the place that Yeah. Many of the brightest minds in AI want to work at.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That said, I I don't think this is an award winning campaign. Sure. It's like they put a verb on a dad cap. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:We've we've been doing this since like
Speaker 1:2016.
Speaker 2:2016. Yeah. It's kind of how I clocked it. It they're they're selling coffee. A lot of a lot of people in tech have done this.
Speaker 2:Yep. I think this is more just excitement around Anthropix overall positioning right as like the anti slop AI company. Sure. So people are are choosing to side with them and there's they've built up a cult around what they're doing which is very powerful. But again, I'm not I'm not blown I'm not blown away by the I I'm I I love the Anthropic team and and I think their products are amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But personally, at no point was I thinking, I need a liner up around the block to get this hat. You know. And and I actually wouldn't wouldn't wear the hat. But so anyways, I You
Speaker 1:would think be caught dead in that hat.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be caught dead
Speaker 1:in the
Speaker 2:hat. No. Don't even try to put one of these on my head.
Speaker 1:I I I I think the hat is kind of No.
Speaker 2:They're cool. They're cool. It's fine. Just that you put a verb on a dad hat.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you wanna Sure. Do you want an award?
Speaker 1:No. They didn't ask for award. People are just excited about it.
Speaker 2:I know. But
Speaker 1:that's So Jordan Castro is reacting to the reaction. It's not like went out there and was like, please, like, glaze us. You know? It's just like, they got glazed, and then Jordan is like, stop with the glaze. And it's not really their fault.
Speaker 1:But I I I I think the bigger question is, like, is, like, is I what think
Speaker 2:the question is, can they get a true foothold in consumer? Because this campaign question. That's a great This campaign is very consumer focused. Yeah. I saw these keep thinking billboards on I don't know.
Speaker 2:Not not Melrose. Sunset Boulevard Sure. In West Hollywood.
Speaker 1:Sandwiched in between two friend.com billboards.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Probably. I'm surprised they could even buy a billboard. John and I John and I drive John and I drive around
Speaker 1:We see friend billboards everywhere.
Speaker 2:You can't go to Everywhere. You cannot go two blocks. They're literally every block. It's every The most massive billboards. I saw we saw a friend on billboard that is, like, basically behind the building.
Speaker 2:And I was like, Avi.
Speaker 1:Why did you even pay
Speaker 2:for that one? Did you just really hit market buy?
Speaker 1:He bought everything. You went on adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising. Only only Adquick.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Get on Adquake because they will help you pick billboards that are not directly up against walls.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. You you know in in no circumstance would an entrepreneur with limited resources look at this billboard and think, yep. I gotta have this one. It's like more than two thirds of it was covered by a building.
Speaker 2:You
Speaker 5:had to get
Speaker 2:the most insane angle while you're driving by. You have to Yeah. You have to peek around out your window.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, I mean But but so here's
Speaker 2:what I'll say about Anthropic's campaign. Yep. Breath of fresh air. Yep. It's quality.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:It's not award winning. Yep. I think that the people that like it, I totally get why they like it. Yep. Breath breath of fresh fresh air.
Speaker 2:I understand why other people that are not in tech are thinking this is the best that you got. Yep. This is this is this is your hero. Yep. It's like the bar is just pretty low.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The bar overall is low. And one of the challenges is that AI the the brands of AI companies get tied to the outputs. Yep. And sometimes the outputs are great and often and most often, they're not so great.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:And so I'm interested to see how aggressive OpenAI gets with that video campaign they did with the what's it? Tell it. Euphoria. Yeah. The Euphoria.
Speaker 2:I thought those videos were great.
Speaker 1:Yes. And What's interesting is that Anthropic did a a video series that was very similar aesthetically. Warm tones, highly cinematic, shallow depth of field, very emotional, like, just a few weeks or months earlier. I can't even keep track at this point. So both of them were experimenting in the same brand landscape.
Speaker 1:I I personally would like, you know, our sponsor Vanta to do a hat that's actually just a huge llama helmet. Says automate compliance management risk group trust continuously on it. And it should also say, you you know, the Anthropic hat is so simple. It just says thinking. It doesn't even say Anthropic on it.
Speaker 1:I think the Vanta hat should say, Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation, whether you're pursuing your first framework or managing a complex program, like, all the way around the hat. Just put the entire landing page on the hat. I think that would be innovative.
Speaker 2:I There's also I was thinking somebody needs to make a nobody's made the AI smart helmet yet that you can wear all the time Yes. From the moment that you wake up to the moment you go to bed, potentially even when you're sleeping. Think about how much compute
Speaker 4:have you
Speaker 2:can
Speaker 4:so
Speaker 2:much compute have. And
Speaker 1:so much batteries. You can have all day battery, all month battery.
Speaker 2:All month battery.
Speaker 1:Also, wearing a motorcycle helmet is incredibly you I mean, I know you haven't seen Kill Bill, but the bride played by Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, Tarantino Tarantino classic, wears this motorcycle outfit with this motorcycle helmet and just looks so sick.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So next time we talk with Zach, that's gonna be my pitch. Yep. AI Motorcycle helmet. Helmet that you can daily.
Speaker 1:Imagine you're just like
Speaker 2:In the workplace.
Speaker 1:Just rocking in the workplace and you're just like, I'm locking in.
Speaker 2:I don't The screen down. We're we're joking about it, but I could see this actually being created. It's like a helmet.
Speaker 1:Dude, it's more comfortable to wear a ski helmet or a motorcycle helmet than Apple Vision Pro. Yeah. Well, let's be honest about
Speaker 2:it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so why not strap that whole thing on your on your head? I love it. It's amazing. I have a couple rebuttals to you. First, I'm gonna talk about graphite.
Speaker 1:Dev code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. But so Anthropic in consumer. They're clearly behind, but it's very interesting because they have a fantastic model that can instantiate code very quickly. You could do all of this, like, on the fly app development, basically.
Speaker 1:So when you ask a question, it actually builds a piece of software for you that's interactive. There's so many cool things that they can do with their foundation model. Also, they have my Krieger. And so you I I just feel
Speaker 2:But I was trying to push him on a little bit. What what can you do on the social side to catalyze Yeah. Claude's growth?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, when I think of the backlash to Meta Vibes, the backlash to Sora two and Sora, if I were to try and build a team that would not face backlash to a consumer product, to a new consumer product, I would back Claude with my Krieger. Right? Because he's gonna build something that's, like, delightful just like the early days of Instagram. I would think that he would inject that kind of, like, simplicity and beauty into the product that they build.
Speaker 1:Who knows? Maybe it's coming. Maybe every foundation model company needs an answer to the AI Slop TikTok feed. And I would be very excited to see what comes out of Anthropic. The other take on this hat is hat aside, I think that keep thinking is a good phrase.
Speaker 1:I think thinking is a good phrase. I think it's a good word. I think they picked that word well, and it excites me, and it actually hits. Like, you can talk a lot about it like, oh, they just a word on a hat. But of all the words to pick, it feels more human.
Speaker 1:It feels less, less cyberpunky. It feels less, like, super
Speaker 2:very human.
Speaker 1:Superintelligence feels like, okay. Maybe that's opposed to my interests, like fast takeoff, all these scary AI doom things, which Anthropic is, like, honestly famous for.
Speaker 2:Everybody is loving this campaign, but thinking machines lab.
Speaker 1:That is true.
Speaker 2:Absolutely brutal.
Speaker 1:But I thought it was interesting that that the message is keep thinking. If you're a human, keep thinking. Don't stop thinking. Like, what we do here at Anthropic is not think for you. That's an interesting message because for a long time, people were saying
Speaker 2:They say, we hear for you.
Speaker 1:We hear for you. A lot of the what's that problem?
Speaker 2:Is that Raystar Roy.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. So so a lot of, like, a lot of the AI, like, a lot of the AI rhetoric has been, the AI will be able to think for you. And Anthropic is specifically putting on a billboard whether they believe it or not or whether that's where AI actually goes. They're encouraging you to say, hey. Keep thinking because that's not our job.
Speaker 1:Our job, you do the thinking, and we do the coding and all the boring.
Speaker 2:Are you sure they're not just worried? It's like, hey. You guys are relying on Claude a little too much. Why don't keep thinking, buddy.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Maybe. And and so that is the question is, like, is this Dario's new view? Because the view that Dario has espoused on many a podcast is, yeah, you're not gonna be thinking because there's, like, a 45% chance that everyone's dead because, you know, you're like he comes out with some hardcore rhetoric that does not feel extremely warm or human or anything about, like, hat. Like, are you gonna be wearing hats if we're all paper clips?
Speaker 1:Like, no. And so, like, is this a is this the marketing team at Anthropic saying, like, let's let's step away from Dario's viewpoint a little bit? Or is it more Dario has actually shifted his thinking and is saying, like, no. I actually feel like what we are building is complementary to humans. That would be exciting.
Speaker 1:And I feel like that would be inspiring to me, and I would be, I would be excited about that. And so I don't know where all this goes, but, it's I think it's a step in the right direction. There there there are so many other campaigns that could have been less human, more clanker coded, and would not have hit. And this one clearly hit to the point where it got so much positive attention that there was a backlash to the positive attention, which I think is it's kind of the best case scenario for a a really positive ad campaign is that people get sick of people talking about how good your ad campaign was. So Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it was pretty good. We need to react to the AI homeless man prank on someone's dad. Yep. We've been instructed that we must
Speaker 2:Our silence has been deafening.
Speaker 1:It has been deafening. Can we pull this video up?
Speaker 2:While we pull it up, Avi Shiffman is at the timeline again. He says, every single available bus shelter in LA now has a friend ad. So apparently, there weren't enough ads.
Speaker 1:That's what people were saying. They were
Speaker 2:like They said Avi. They said more.
Speaker 1:We need more billboards. You gotta push this campaign further. There just aren't enough billboards. People aren't aware of your campaign. You're barely baking through, buddy.
Speaker 1:Step it up. Let's watch the AI homeless man prank on my dad video. K. So you just take a picture, send it to the dad. I can't read any of this.
Speaker 1:This is too small. Is this add is this like Nano Banana adding the dad to the to the pictures of the actual house? Seven phone calls from the dad. So he's he's pitching, I'm bringing in the homeless person into my house. No.
Speaker 1:Oh, in the bed. 13 phone calls. Do you think this is at all real or do you think this is all theater? Do you think this is all created?
Speaker 2:All theater.
Speaker 1:All theater?
Speaker 2:But it's mildly entertaining.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is it is an interesting case study in like AI slop in the sense that like it's using AI to create, you know, Photoshop text messages I suppose and and and getting a laugh out of that. But
Speaker 2:it's Yeah. It's like using AI to lie for entertainment. To
Speaker 1:lie, yes. But but it's it it the lie is like a meta commentary on the nature of AI slop. Right? Because it's it's the the the joke is on the dad or the theoretical, the hypothetical dad in this the character of the dad. Anyway, let's talk about Julius.
Speaker 1:What analysis do you wanna run? Chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds. Ask Julius to to analyze your data. Images that make feel pain.
Speaker 2:There's a post here from Aishwarya who says, low key, the anthropic NYC pop up hype is proof a lot of tech people have never been invited to a fashion week event or a real brand activation before. Keyword, being invited.
Speaker 1:That's probably true. I mean, these are wildly different worlds.
Speaker 2:Hayden Johnson has a post here Yes. That says every AI ad is like, hey Gemini, what would I have for lunch? And then the phone is like sandwich. And the guy is like, wow. That's so funny.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay. We need to watch the video of Ken Griffin giving some hot takes about the
Speaker 2:AI boom. This should be the most near term bearish thing you watch today.
Speaker 1:So buckwheat. Bourbon Capital. Bourbon Capital highlights is, finally, someone isn't afraid to speak the truth. People have been speaking the truth or, you know, giving hot takes for months now. Let's just make that clear, but let's hear it from Ken Griffin himself at the future of global markets twenty twenty five, Seville Securities Conference.
Speaker 1:Mark, language
Speaker 6:models, particular, have been in existence for a few years. I think there's a real chance that when we think about the forms of AI that are alluded to by many of the markets leaders today, that their dream for the future may not take three to five years to play out. It could be twenty years. It could be thirty years. It's like the Internet, and I people hate this analogy, but like the .com moment back at the start of this century, did anyone have any doubt that the Internet was going to change the world?
Speaker 6:No. Has the Internet changed the world? Absolutely. But did it take longer than anticipated? And was there a period in which there was a real sort of sorting of the winners and losers that took place?
Speaker 6:Unequivocally. Unequivocally. And I think that the AI story will have many of same components.
Speaker 1:There's a bubble and people calling for bubbles. Tyler. I think this is
Speaker 2:this is this is just ultimately a very sound analysis Yes. And it's coming from somebody who is highly intelligent, highly accomplished, highly invested, and yet doesn't personally, to my knowledge, have a billion dollars of equity Yeah. In a lab who's incentivized to keep the part like
Speaker 1:Well, he might have a million dollars like this second and then not tomorrow. And then, no, no, the next
Speaker 2:second and then
Speaker 1:second and then not
Speaker 2:Ken's gonna make money no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't, you know Yeah. I'm I'm sure he's making a lot of money now.
Speaker 2:Maybe maybe in a correction, he makes less. But he's gonna do fine no matter what.
Speaker 1:So So got roasted in the financial crisis.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Drew down 50%. Yeah. He did almost like wind down the fund. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Was really, really rough. But but it's important to not just listen to the predictions and opinions of people who have the heaviest bags
Speaker 1:Sure. Sure. Sure.
Speaker 2:That are dependent on Yeah. Keeping the party going Yep. As long as possible.
Speaker 1:Tyler, what you got?
Speaker 4:So it could also be that his competitors are invested in AI labs. Right? I think Yes. Jane Jane Street is big in Anthropic? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Big in Anthropic.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So maybe it's really he's Lack
Speaker 1:of bags. Problem with he has lack of bags, so he's bearish.
Speaker 2:Sidelined.
Speaker 1:Lack of bags is is as much of a conflict as not having conflicts is a conflict because you don't have bags and so you're incentivized to be bearish on people that have bags. Yeah. This is a fact.
Speaker 2:He wants to crush his enemies.
Speaker 1:Tyler, how many days until the singularity?
Speaker 4:We're still we're still at thirty six fifty. I I guess it should've
Speaker 1:Thirty six fifty.
Speaker 4:A lot of big news since I changed it last, so I I guess it should've gone down every day.
Speaker 2:But
Speaker 1:So ten years until the Singularity. We need to be updating that daily. So at least we're ticking down. But watching that Ken Griffin clip, are you adding days? Are you removing days?
Speaker 1:What are you thinking?
Speaker 4:Was right. Is, like, kind of boomer coded. So I'm saying I'm saying we're closer to AGI after watching this.
Speaker 1:Okay. You think you think he's a contraindicator for AGI progress? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1:So you're so you're removing days. So we're down at, like, three thousand days now. Just nine years.
Speaker 4:I mean, six hundred days, I think that that's almost two years. Right? That's a little too big of an update. Yeah. But
Speaker 1:Yeah. Did you did either of you watched the Dorcache Sutton reaction? The apology video. Yeah. Someone said this is so funny.
Speaker 1:It was not apology video. Dorcache did apologize in the video, but only saying, I apologize if I'm mischaracterizing your your statement, I and I have some of the ground truth wrong. But I I thought it was interesting. I I I felt like I came away originally thinking that the that the bitter lesson was poor endless commute compute behind any algorithm that's working and scaling when Sutton kind of reclassifies it as, like, like, the game of the AI researcher is to hunt for the next algorithm that will scale with compute. And he's not saying that any algorithm will necessarily scale infinitely with compute.
Speaker 1:And so he like, my my takeaway was that he was he's if he looks at LLMs, he's like, good progress for four ooms. Maybe need a new thing to go for the next five ooms or something like that. Was that your was that your read?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, the the thing about LLMs is, like, you like, the scaling. Like, you there's just no more data to scale with. So it's, like, not kinda bitter listen pill in that sense anymore because you can't just keep throwing more compute at the same LMs because if you just make the models bigger or whatever, it it's not, like, it's not gonna get better. The model won't be better because the because the data is is constrained.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It's this weird thing where, like, on like, you can zoom out and look at, like, computing power over the past fifty years and see a very, very smooth curve. Then you can look at, like, the AI winters and see that there's, like, these huge steps in progress, the transformer paper, the I don't know. There there there's been a whole bunch of, like, ImageNet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right?
Speaker 4:Reasoning models.
Speaker 1:Reasoning models. Big, big step forward. And those are, like, those are, like, a decade apart sometimes. And so you get these, like, qualitative bumps where you're like, oh, wow. Like, is this feels different?
Speaker 1:But then in that interim, you might not see a lot of, like, qualitative jumps in clear progress, clear new capabilities, but the diffusion of that economic value is immense. And so we like, technically, pre LLM, we were kind of in an AI winter, I suppose, where, like, you know, self driving cars were, like, ten years behind, and nothing was really, like, popping in AI. AI was not a buzzword. People weren't using dot AI domains. But in that in the in the period of time from, like, call it 2010 to 2020, like, what was the economic impact of AI?
Speaker 1:Like, it was insane. Right? Because Netflix was doing recommendation algorithms. Amazon was doing recommendation algorithms. The Facebook algorithmic ad feed, TikTok feeds, like like, AI wasn't transformer based LLMs, but AI was
Speaker 2:Do think it's possible?
Speaker 1:A massive driver of
Speaker 2:economic growth. Willa created the AI hype cycle Probably. In order to sell more dot AI domains.
Speaker 1:Isn't, like, 50% of their GDP AI domains?
Speaker 2:50% of their, like,
Speaker 1:budget
Speaker 2:Basically, like, budget comes from It's remarkable. Dot AI domains. Remarkable.
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Speaker 1:Yes. Chubby says, I double checked. You can already buy Unitree's g one at Walmart. Only $21,000 shipping in one week. Tesla must hurry to deploy their optics.
Speaker 2:We buy one? Do we buy one?
Speaker 1:We got to. Right?
Speaker 2:We got to.
Speaker 1:We have to buy one of these
Speaker 2:and have It's so another fight. It's such a wild thing to let a fox into the henhouse, but sometimes you gotta do it. Right? The global economy let Sam, Alvin, the fox into the penthouse. Fox.
Speaker 2:And we'll see what happens. We gotta
Speaker 1:henhouse let analogy is amazing.
Speaker 2:But I don't think of the g one basic. This is the CCP Fox into the Ultradome and just
Speaker 1:I think of the TBP in Ultradome less as a henhouse and more as a bullring.
Speaker 2:It's more of bull fox house.
Speaker 1:We're still on the farm, but over here, you have the bulls jacked, fighting. You mess with the bull, you get the horns. Unitree, you're on notice. If you send over Unitree g one basic for $21,000 shipping in one week and you try any funny stuff, you're getting the horns because this is not a house.
Speaker 2:I would say this is like letting a clanker into the fox house.
Speaker 1:We're all foxes now. In the fox
Speaker 2:I think we I think I I
Speaker 1:This is a head in the fox house. The fox in the fox hole.
Speaker 2:I I've been kinda worried leaving the g one basic with Tyler. The, you know, I presumably, Tyler would be tasked with setting it up. But then you're thinking about, okay, the g one is gonna be here with Tyler. Potentially, after hours, and I just should be a little bit worried
Speaker 1:about that. So we can train it to swipe ramp cards or something? Like, what what what what can we do with this?
Speaker 4:You could automatic gong hits?
Speaker 1:Oh. Automatic gong hits sounds good. Put me out of a job. Wow. Real real black fell
Speaker 2:on economics. Dario was right.
Speaker 1:Automate White collar work. White collar work.
Speaker 2:AKA gong hits.
Speaker 1:Collar and I hit a gong. That is remarkable.
Speaker 2:What I can't believe we're doing this again like we did with drones where we're just gonna let UniTree just flood the market.
Speaker 1:Yes. Where is where where where are the hawks?
Speaker 2:I'm normally normally, you know, against government intervention. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Two hour battery life. Look at this thing. We gotta get one. Tyler wants it so badly. I wonder I wonder what else he can do with it.
Speaker 1:Like, how strong is the API? Does it have, like, the ability to
Speaker 2:issue voice commands? What we do.
Speaker 1:Can you replace the hands with grant cards? Swiping everything. You get dangerous. Anyway, we are being joined by Shane from Polymarket in just a few minutes. In the meantime, let me tell you about what Buco Capital bloke is saying on the timeline.
Speaker 1:He says, we had a good thing, you stupid son of a we had 98% gross margins and LTV to CAC ratio is above five. We were considered safer than first lien debt. Nobody questioned our terminal value or stock based compensation. We had everything we needed, and it all ran like clockwork. You could have shut your mouth, funded a few new SaaS companies each year, and made as much money as you needed, but you just had to blow it up, you and your pride and your ego.
Speaker 1:Talking about AI. Lots of people having fun. Well, in the the rest Obviously, of AI
Speaker 2:OpenAI sent around a bunch of basically deal toys for people that spent over or used a trillion tokens with OpenAI. Notion got one. Ramp got one. A bunch of others. Yep.
Speaker 2:Lauren Good says, this is sort of like spending a million bucks gambling and the casino gives you a free hotel room for the night. It's close. Think I think that's the next that's the next leg up in the in the cycle.
Speaker 1:Cognition got got 1,000,000,000,000
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:Trillion. Hacking. Ramp got one. And I was trying to do the math on how much a trillion tokens actually cost so I could clock how much these companies are spending. ChatGPT clocked it as if they're doing g GPT 3.5 turbo, that's the cheapest cheaper case.
Speaker 1:That's a million bucks. If it's GPT four standard, that's $45,000,000. So potentially hitting I mean, Notion has talked about how this hit their gross margins. It's not an immaterial cost, but a lot of value to the customers. And Tyler, what's the cheapest way?
Speaker 1:Do you have a do you have an update on how how cheaply you could acquire one of these deal toys?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, so so the main thing you would do is you can do a batched API calls. Mhmm. So instead of just doing like one and then you you get the response, you send like a ton and then it it's I think it's like within twenty four hours, you'll get the response back.
Speaker 1:Do you actually do that when you when you run your examples?
Speaker 4:No. None of the stuff I do is Oh,
Speaker 1:so money just doesn't matter to you around here. You just don't care about cost optimization at TV.
Speaker 4:I gotta be timely.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:That's true. I I think that is
Speaker 1:That is money.
Speaker 4:I think that's either 50% or 90%. And then the other thing you do is you can do cashed inputs
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:Which is, like, I forget which one is which, 50 or 90%. Yeah. But if you combine those, then it's, like, massive savings. So then I think if you combine those with is it is 3.5 triple the cheapest? Or it I feel like it's Yeah.
Speaker 4:G p t 5 nano.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Something like that.
Speaker 2:I forget.
Speaker 4:But I think you could probably do it for a couple thousand dollars.
Speaker 1:Get the I think I saw someone maybe they were talking about 10,000,000 tokens. Billion. Or do billion tokens. But they said dollars 20 for 10,000,000,000 tokens. So for $2, you could potentially get one of these deal toys that are pretty rare.
Speaker 1:Maybe they'll flip these. Who knows? This is a piece of this is piece of lore.
Speaker 2:Did you see Matt Levine's summary of AMD and OpenAI?
Speaker 1:Yes. Martin Scrawley put this in the truth zone to be clear. Let's read it. But first,
Speaker 2:me tell
Speaker 1:you about Turbo Puffer, Search Every Byte, Serverless Vector, and Full Text Search, built from first principles on object storage, fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable. Read Matt Lapin's How
Speaker 2:do these negotiations go? Like schematically, OpenAI, we would like six gigawatts worth of your chips to do inference. AMD, terrific. That will be 78,000,000,000. How would you like to pay?
Speaker 2:OpenAI, well, we were thinking that we would announce the deal and that would add 78,000,000,000 of to the value of your company which should cover AMD, ..dot. OpenAI, ..dot. AMD. No. I'm pretty sure you have to pay for the chips, OpenAI.
Speaker 2:Why? AMD. I don't know. It just seems wrong not to. OpenAI.
Speaker 2:Okay. Why don't we pay you cash for the value of the chips and you give us back stock? And when we announce the deal, the stock will go up and we'll get our $78,000,000,000 back. AMD. Here we go.
Speaker 2:AMD. Yeah. I guess that works. So I feel like we should get some of the value. Opening up, okay.
Speaker 2:You can have half. You give us stock worth, like, $35,000,000,000 and you can keep the rest.
Speaker 1:Barnes Crowley didn't like it. He said, this is not at all what happened in Matt Levin is stupid. You shouldn't read him zero days Wall Street experience word sell. He's not happy about it. Mogged.
Speaker 1:Mogged.
Speaker 2:But Mogged. This is interesting.
Speaker 1:Think it's I think it's funny. From
Speaker 2:j bol tard on x. How hilarious is this Oracle move? Oracle makes all the AI names rip on some made up CapEx guide using revenue that doesn't exist from OpenAI. And now it syncs the entire space with bad news regarding AI CapEx not working. What a joke.
Speaker 1:I mean, how how quickly do you expect the CapEx to pay off? It's
Speaker 2:Oracle sold off hard
Speaker 1:How about
Speaker 2:this morning. It went from $290 a share to $270 a share, but it's climbing back up. We may be back to where we
Speaker 1:were right people are reading into the that that that article
Speaker 2:about information margins. The new Hindenburg research?
Speaker 1:Potentially. But I think people corrected the record pretty quickly on that. I just figured out expecting high margins. What what it's like two weeks out from the Oracle news, maybe a month. I mean, I guess we were at the stock exchange for for the Klarna IPO when the Oracle News broke.
Speaker 1:Right? Or what what it it was then. Right? Yeah. That week.
Speaker 1:So that was just a couple weeks ago. And and, I mean, it was definitely, like, the most aggressive deal ever, and it was a crazy deal. But people are potentially reading too much into the near term the near term financial impacts. Because it just, like, takes time to understand. Like, if the demand shows up and more people pay and the ads monetize and more people are, you know, seeing ads on Sora or paying for credits, like, there is a world where the economy keeps flowing back and forth and people consumers are putting money into the system.
Speaker 1:And so even these circular deals work out. So
Speaker 2:You wanna know something bullish?
Speaker 1:Please. I'd love a bull
Speaker 2:Russia's flagship AI product is called Gigachat.
Speaker 1:That's bearish because Russia is the bear. Right? Their mascot. That's
Speaker 2:a cool name.
Speaker 1:That's a crazy mascot to pick, Russia. It's just instantly bearish in your entire country. Wait. What what is it?
Speaker 2:It's called Giga Chat.
Speaker 1:Giga Chat. That's a pretty good name. All the different countries are really leaning into their sovereign AI.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You don't hear much about Russian AI though.
Speaker 1:No. I was wondering when they would get around to announcing something. Like, you because they have all these incredible math, like, math experts. You'd think that they would be, like, really, really good. But maybe they've been preoccupied with a bunch of other stuff going on.
Speaker 1:Geoport? Certainly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, they lost Nebius too, which would have been a national champion had they not gotten into
Speaker 1:cold war. Story. Yeah. We gotta have the Nebius CEO on and dig into that. It's what what a wild, wild time.
Speaker 1:Good morning, Nat, Ellison. Is it Eliason? How do I pronounce that?
Speaker 2:Think Nat Eliason. Good morning. Remember the name. Nat. The Bobby Kunzbank.
Speaker 2:Do we have time to get through this Wilmanitis post? This looks a little long. I don't
Speaker 1:Yeah. This is the new meta, I think. I I I think the algorithm has changed on x. It used to be all about short, pithy, punchy posts. But now the 500 word long post is doing really well, and so we're seeing a lot more of those.
Speaker 1:Jeremy Giffon has dropped a couple that have done very well. Will Menitis is now getting in on the action. Let's read through it. He says, every few weeks now, a fee drunk allocator declares a company going from 0 to 2,000,000 is not interesting. Only the ones that go from 0 to 500,000,000.
Speaker 1:This is, of course, a very silly idea, but it is proximal to an important one. We are returning to a much older model for growth of Internet companies. Welcome to the deal Yuga. Following the dot com crash, the modern Internet company was defined by sales as its fundamental motion for growth. Scared of the business development of the nineties, companies would hire farms of thousands of SDRs to smile, dial, and build pipeline.
Speaker 1:ACV's across the businesses fell steadily over the decades as we realized if we lowered the contract pipe, the contract price, collective delusions like product led growth allowed increasingly lower and lower individuals on the totem pole to sign software contracts when cold called and thus increase the speed in which a business could grow, albeit in smaller and smaller steps. As the discretionary spend capabilities of a random software engineer increased, this is like the bottom up, adoption of software, so did the viability of product led growth, and thus we cargo culted a set of growth metrics built around it, time to 100,000,000, cloud 100, etcetera. Some good businesses were built alongside many bad ones. It's easy to think of PLG as a trauma response to the.com and subsequent SaaS bubbles. If you lower your engine of growth to only grow in human sized chunks, you can both grow increasingly predictably that revenue and decrease the damage of any given customer imploding has on one on your entire book.
Speaker 1:The best way to think of PLG perhaps is to perhaps imagine it as the golden calf of Exodus 32. If we had the real God enterprise and we we had the real God enterprise and we did and we decided to take the easier path after we stopped after he stopped when he stopped speaking momentarily. The shift we are watching today with many companies growing quickly, 1 to a $100,000,000 in forty eight hours, and many companies growing in massive chunks, OpenAI owning AMD, etcetera, is not a new model, but instead a return to the origin of this industry, deals. Deals are of course the origin of the Internet business itself. The Internet business as originally built raised money exclusive to conduct deals.
Speaker 1:Nineties were awash with channel partnerships, leasing agreements, customer book buyouts, IP sharing and washing and all kinds of beautiful deals. Deals. Deals in all caps. The incredible Alex Denk Denko speaking on Jackson Doll's podcast put this well, quote, one of the interesting hallmarks of that era was that much of the genuinely forward progress a company had to make was by doing deals. The incredible stable surfaces and platforms we enjoy today from which you can just build and get growth didn't exist.
Speaker 1:Companies were ultimately dependent on business development at a much earlier and more critical stage. The path was much more milestone driven, involving major deals. For instance, you had to secure vendors for compute by computers, by a database from Oracle, and also arrange distribution deals priced in than it ought to have been. Sound familiar? It certainly should.
Speaker 1:Even Oracle is still the same. These 100 to fifth to $500,000,000 stories are not software companies growing fundamentally quicker than their predecessors. They are software companies growing in fundamentally different ways as we return to the deal, Yuga. We should expect the shape of these companies and the teams that run them to change even further. The teams and investors that learn from history, from the first great deal age will avoid the many pitfalls that come from this kind of growth.
Speaker 1:Chief amongst them, the idea that partnerships and infrastructure providers much larger than you are somehow win win altruistic arrangements and not having you the device of your underdog of your undoing, and hoping for the best. Welcome to the second deals era. We've never been more back. It's fun. Very similar to what Yeah.
Speaker 2:I is what people say about, you know, in another life, Sam Altman would be on Yeah. Wall Street being as a banker
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? Deals. Yeah. So it is even his critics should admit that it's remarkable.
Speaker 1:Fantastic deals guy. Remarkable. And, like, I I think people have been so skeptical of the early deals, like the Microsoft deal. Like, it seems like that deal completely saved OpenAI. They were never gonna get compute as a nonprofit.
Speaker 1:They had to do this insane deal to create this for profit entity, very complicated, something that requires an immense amount of, you know, greasing the wheels. And we're just seeing more and more of these, like, founder to founder deals, no investment bankers involved. It really is the era of the high agency dealmaker. Jeremy Kafon was talking about this. I asked Patrick O'Shaughnessy about this on the show.
Speaker 1:This idea that in the future, folks with private equity backgrounds, investment banking backgrounds might be better as founders because they are more set up to to be deals guys on day one, as opposed to the the the more product focused, PLG focused, engineering focused founder of the YC 2,010 era that was focused on building a product that was sticky, had a viral loop, would grow, and kind of, you know, just compound. And then and then eventually, it would learn to do deals at some point, but that was something that they would add on later, like learning financial engineering in in the second decade of your company. Now, companies and founders seem to be adopting these ideas on day one. For sure. Well
Speaker 2:There's a video that went quite viral yesterday that we can pull up in the timeline. Another illustration Great. Of the deals between NVIDIA, AMD, and OpenAI.
Speaker 1:While we pull that up, let me tell you about ProFound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGitKatie. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover products and brands. And we will pull up this video. Let's see it.
Speaker 1:Who where did this come from? You just saw this on the timeline. Is Okay. Is this AI generated?
Speaker 2:Oh, lord. Okay. Let's see. We need some audio here.
Speaker 1:Let's see. AMD, Nvidia. Yo. Is it the Three Stooges?
Speaker 3:Here's 10, I'll owe
Speaker 1:you 10. It is.
Speaker 3:Uh-uh. You owe me 20. Here's 10, I owe you 10. Here's the 10 I owe you. Here's the 10.
Speaker 3:And speaking of money, how about the $20 you owe me? Oh, yeah. Well, I only got 10, so here's 10, I owe you 10. Thanks. Hey, Moe.
Speaker 3:You owe me 20. Well, here's 10. I'll owe you 10. Uh-uh. You owe me 20.
Speaker 3:Here's 10. I owe you 10. Here's the 10 I owe you. Here's the 10 I owe you. Here's the 10 I owe you.
Speaker 3:Good. Now we're all even. Money, how about the 25?
Speaker 2:Keeps looping. Somebody quoted this and said a copy says, twenty five years ago, this is called round tripping and was considered illegal. After investors suffered trillions in losses, it will probably be considered illegal again. So we will see. It's kind of the Wild West right now.
Speaker 1:Well, in non AI news for once, we have Shane from Polymarket joining the show. He's in the restream waiting room. We'll bring him in Let's bring
Speaker 2:him in.
Speaker 1:In Ultradome.
Speaker 3:Shane
Speaker 2:There he is.
Speaker 1:How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Look at that setup.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Shane, can
Speaker 2:you hear us?
Speaker 7:I can hear you guys. I cannot see you guys.
Speaker 2:Okay. Okay. Well, trust that we are looking at you and smiling at you and
Speaker 1:You look fantastic.
Speaker 2:You look fantastic. A day. About you. Break down the news.
Speaker 7:It's it's hard not to look fantastic with this backdrop. Backdrop.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Right there.
Speaker 7:I had to FaceTime all my family members be like, hey, look at that. Know, now with with all the AI stuff, you gotta you gotta show that it's true.
Speaker 1:You gotta break through.
Speaker 2:From the from the bathroom office in 2020 to the NICE seat in 2025, anything is possible.
Speaker 1:What a run. Take us through the deal today. Take us through the news. What's the what are the key points in the announcement?
Speaker 7:Yeah. I mean, it's I've never been really like a deal guy or a guy that's very focused on, you know, I would say a lot of entrepreneurs, they're very optimized around fundraising, etcetera. I really just like building things. And usually what I found is when you get traction and when you get motion and when people start taking notice of what you do, the money usually follows. And in this case, there was a lot of interest from people who wanted to invest.
Speaker 7:I'm very grateful and humbled by all of it. And then Jeff reached out to me, and it was kind of like we got we got to talking. He has he knows markets and and traditional finance better than anybody. He runs his own company that he started, solo founder like myself. Wow.
Speaker 7:And there were all these ideas that we had that we could do together and we were very like minded on it and he was a big fan of Polymarket. So when when he started saying, hey, let's do something, it there were a lot of synergies that came together quickly. So it's very exciting.
Speaker 2:And this is not a token strategic investment. I mean, is very, very meaningful. Think I I correct me if I'm wrong, but this is like the single this is the single largest investment in a in a in a crypt crypto company ever.
Speaker 5:Okay. That one.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Give us the actual numbers. What's the structure of the deal? Is this, this is a strategic deal? It's not like a are you giving it a series number, like a letter? Like like, how are you actually describing the deal?
Speaker 1:I wanna ring the gong for you. I want the numbers.
Speaker 7:Yeah. They're investing $2,000,000,000.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:Hit that gong. There we go.
Speaker 7:Oh, the gong's from your side. I thought the gong was like a periodic New York Stock Exchange thing.
Speaker 1:The gong is from our side. We have What it the
Speaker 2:what are what can you share about what the partnership will actually look like over the next twelve, twenty four months and beyond? Like what's most exciting about it to you?
Speaker 7:I mean look, it's right now such a moment for prediction markets. It's been exciting for us to sort of be, like, you know, sit there. And even two years ago, it really was a category that people kept writing off and saying, oh, yeah. It's an idea that makes so much sense, but it's never gonna We're really excited that we were able to buy QC and be set up to go and to enter The US market. I think it's lining up perfectly.
Speaker 7:The stars are aligning. The timing's the timing's about as good as it could be. So on that side, there's a lot in terms of data and in terms of distribution and and sort of who can have access to polymarket, particularly in The US, but also globally because ICE has, you know, exchanged assets all around the world. But, also, Jeff in particular, as he mentioned on CBC earlier, is, like, he's a big believer in tokenization. He's a big believer in all assets are gonna be tokenized.
Speaker 7:It's a superior technology for the exchange of assets. And Polymarket is the biggest consumer product that's built on on tokenization under the hood. For every prediction market, it's actually tokenized. There's a yes token and a no token. So there's a lot of ideas we've kicked around there, and I think ICE has incredible savvy and Jeff has incredible savvy about how you can do these things, utilizing existing assets and understanding sort of the existing matrix of US regulation, and then where there could be pockets that there may have to be collaboration between the regulators and the innovators, for how to basically do things that exist, but in a more efficient way utilizing new technology.
Speaker 7:So that's the thing that I'm definitely gonna be leaning on him for. That's not the thing that I'm that that you know, I can't say that I'm the best at that like he is. But in terms of the consumer side and building the products, ICE doesn't have any consumer properties. Right? So that's where we come in, and that's where I think him and I, we have this mutual understanding common ground of how these products could work.
Speaker 7:He's a very innovative guy, very forward thinking, and, you know, we can kind of see the vision in terms of polymarket.com, how we can look there, and he can understand the the infrastructure and how to make it happen from the regulatory and infrastructure side.
Speaker 2:Did you ever expect prediction markets to be in South Park to have an episode Yeah. Was that on your bingo card for this year? Or did that was that still a surprise?
Speaker 7:Yeah. I mean, I love South Park. Like, I grew up a South Park kid. I remember watching the the original movie. I remember being in Best Buy and buying season two, season three on VHS.
Speaker 7:And, look, I think that, it's funny because the geopolitical markets on Polymarket have have proven to be extremely useful, like in the WhatsApp groups from people in The Middle East and, people who are into open source intelligence, OSINT. They really watch Polymarket like a hawk. And the sort of crux of the the episode being this idea of, like, you know, this sort of will the the mother in the Jewish family, you know, bomb Gaza? Like, that kind of being it's this play on on those markets. Like, it's it's definitely pushing it, but it's also just so South Park.
Speaker 7:And, you know, it's obviously all in good fun, but the way that they interpreted the situation and distilled into a Southwark episode, you know, you wouldn't expect anything less from them.
Speaker 1:What about, just, the inter Intercontinental Exchange, ICE, founded in February, backed by Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Shell, Dutch Deutsche Bank, Soc General. Like, it is the ultimate bridge to Wall Street. How important are those connections? Are you already plugged into all the Wall Street firms? Is this a is this a a new a new pipeline for you to just Wall Street generally and professionalization?
Speaker 1:Like, how does that all play out for you?
Speaker 7:Absolutely. Look. I've historically been more of a a cold email guy, so I don't think that would get me that far on this street. And, yeah, you know, when I talked to Jeff and Co about this, like, they know everyone, and everyone's a a text or an email or phone call away. And that's really exciting because there's a lot of interest.
Speaker 7:Every time I meet somebody who's, you know, from the traditional world high up, they they love Polymarket. They love what we do. They're obsessed with the data, and they oftentimes track it. And, you know, it's something Polymarket is something that they look at frequently. And, you know, now, one having the bridge, but also having the credibility of of such a great partner, it it's probably hard to underestimate how important that will be in terms of us bridging the gap, especially as we render The US market and we open up for institutions.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Anything else?
Speaker 2:Well, absolutely iconic image today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You What a day. Outside the exchange. Congratulations.
Speaker 7:It's funny like we've had so many misconnections. Right? Like Yeah. There were so many times we were gonna hop on and I was gonna be in a little booth or like a little chair in the back and I said, you know, one time if I'm gonna go on Yep. If I'm gonna go on your guys' pod
Speaker 1:It's gotta be special.
Speaker 7:I gotta figure out how to mog one way or another.
Speaker 1:Well, mog you did.
Speaker 2:Sharon So
Speaker 1:here we are. Thank you for everything that you do to make this show possible.
Speaker 7:I appreciate it. A huge fan of of of what you guys do and it's awesome to see right there that poly market ticker.
Speaker 2:Yeah. There it is.
Speaker 1:It's fantastic.
Speaker 7:You guys are are are real real champions, pioneers.
Speaker 1:It's been
Speaker 7:having me.
Speaker 1:Have a great
Speaker 2:Congratulations to you and the whole team.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Cute look fantastic. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Mogging. We have another, post here. Blake Robbins said, yesterday, OpenAI is operating on a different level. The amount they have shipped in the past few weeks and months is incredible. True.
Speaker 2:Eric says, indeed impressive, but the scattershot nature raises questions about the company's discipline and ability to support these desperate initiatives. Is OpenAI a frontier research lab, a social network operator, a commerce engine, a hardware company? Because it's hard to do all of that well. I would say they are a hyperscaler. If you look at any of the hyperscalers, they have a frontier research lab.
Speaker 2:They usually have a social network. Yep. They usually have a commerce engine. They usually have a hardware division.
Speaker 5:Yep.
Speaker 2:And it is hard to do all of them well. Think that Sam is playing for keeps. Right? He's he's you know, there's a lot of founders that wouldn't have launched Asura as a standalone Right? There's a lot of founders that wouldn't acquire a company for 6 and a half billion dollars that doesn't have a working product yet and just kind of an idea of what they wanna build.
Speaker 2:Right? But he is incredibly aggressive. He's fast becoming too big to fail. And, you know, I think that put differently, you asked, okay, this company has a 100 800,000,000 weekly active users. Do you think it's fair that they would get experiment with the social network?
Speaker 2:Do you think it's fair that so there's there's a lot of companies with far less scale that are doing this kind of range of activities, but you have to my framework for OpenAI now is looking at them as as a, you know, as a hyperscaler that's gonna launch products all the time, some of which will work, some won't, and that's totally okay. They're just they're experimenting their shipping and they're taking big swings because at this point for them to take for them to create something that's meaningful to their business, it has to be a billion dollar opportunity. So
Speaker 1:I agree. I have a rebuttal, but first, I'm gonna tell you about Linear. Linear is a purpose built tool for planning and build products. Meet the system for Microsoft development. You stream my issues, projects, and product road maps.
Speaker 1:So back in GPT three, launch 2020, I was playing around in the playground, and I was writing video essays at the time about companies, and I wanted to create a list of companies that could potentially profile. And so back in the day, there was no prompt. There was no RL. There was no RLHF. And so you had to as Rune told us, like, the foundation models are complete hallucination.
Speaker 1:And so you had to write a prompt that would really set it up to just continue what you were saying because it was just guessing the next word, and it was not very good at it. And what I did was I went to GPT three in the playground, and I typed out, like, some of the most interesting business stories in history. And I put one, Theranos, two, WeWork, three, Lehman Brothers, four, dot space. And then it would continue to fill in based on your prompt that you had written, and it's just trying to guess the next word. And it actually did come up with some interesting companies that weren't on my radar, and I was able to go and Google them and and and fact check them and understand those stories.
Speaker 1:Never really became part of my workflow, but I thought it was interesting. And at the time, I was thinking, like, this is a search engine. Like, it's just it it it's just something that I I would normally have gone to Google and searched for, like, top 10 most interesting companies, and I would have gotten a listicle. But GPT three just gave me the text itself. And so for a while, my model for ChatGPT and and OpenAI has been like, they're just the new Google.
Speaker 1:And and my and my my wondering is, like, how much of the culture of Google has, you know, has a natural outgrowth of just having a fast growing consumer, you know, web app. And if they're if they're if ChatGPT is growing, then will they have a bunch of 24 20% time projects? And so the social network operator, the commerce engine, the hardware company, like Google's tried a bunch of those. They tried Google Plus. They tried Google Glass.
Speaker 1:Those didn't work. But YouTube's a great social network, loosely, and their Android phone ecosystem's a successful hardware bet. Commerce engine, certainly, that's cooking at Google. And so I I do wonder how much you like like, I agree the scattershot nature raises questions about the company's discipline. But we've seen it play out before where if you have an engine that's growing, growing, growing, you can actually go and do a bunch of 20% time products.
Speaker 1:Some of them hit, some of them don't.
Speaker 2:Also, Sam Altman has never come out and said focus is our highest virtue, and we're just gonna work on chat GPT. It's like, okay, their research
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Their, you know, an infus they're becoming an infrastructure player. Yep. Right? They're going to experiment in all the different areas
Speaker 1:They have an API, cloud business.
Speaker 2:Yep. Right? I think I would be interested to see if they do. Again. Like, do they acquire someone like a Snapchat at some point?
Speaker 2:Does that does that happen?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I I I don't know if they'll
Speaker 2:do suggested
Speaker 1:At some point, they have to do a bunch of acquisitions, I would imagine. They're already doing some of them. Didn't they buy Statsig. Statsig. And obviously, other other companies as well.
Speaker 2:They announced the acquisition of a company called Joy
Speaker 1:Today?
Speaker 2:The other day, which was like a finance
Speaker 1:tool. Yeah. Yeah. So they're they're they're adding a bunch of stuff. I mean, other hyperscalers have done this in the past.
Speaker 1:I I wonder, you know, obviously, there's always a risk of being too scattered, but it is a large company. And it's also interesting to look at the time frame. Like, a lot of people are viewing OpenAI as a company that started in 2023, essentially, even though ChachiPi launched in 2022. They really feel like the OpenAI story started in 2023. It did not.
Speaker 1:The company did start in 2015, and it was a frontier research lab for now a decade. And so if you look at the timeline for Google, well, Google Search launches in 1998. And then six years later in 02/2004, they're launching Gmail, and that's a great product, and it worked out. And so should you give them credit for the time they were wandering in the wilderness as a nonprofit? Or should you comp them just to when they got product market fit on on ChatGPT?
Speaker 1:Maybe something in between, but there's certainly a lineage of companies that find really strong Internet product market fit, scaling, growing, and then doing other projects and not having those not getting over their skis. Social network operator, what's the real cost if Sora blows up and it never goes anywhere and they light a bunch of GPUs on fire? Well, if it fails, they won't be lighting that many GPUs on fire because nobody will be generating anything. If their hardware project goes south, like, yeah, that's probably multibillion dollar investment. But a company of their scale at $500,000,000,000 with billions coming in from all sorts of different deals can probably take that hit on the chin and keep keep moving and keep refocusing on the on the main on the main main project.
Speaker 1:So I don't know how how how big of a of a worry it is, but they certainly don't seem to have been, you know, massively falling behind in the core product. We're not seeing, you know, huge churn or anything Doug
Speaker 2:from Semi Analysis says, OpenAI is tweeting about real interest rates. We get a new Fed chair. That's whole job is to lower rates to as low as possible. OBBB means no taxes. Money becomes really cheap.
Speaker 2:You gotta invest in America at all costs. Wow. It's so clear. Yeah.
Speaker 1:People are excited.
Speaker 2:DJT certainly wants you to invest in America.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, let me tell you about numeralhq.com. Sales tax on autopilot. Spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance. Peter Wildeford has a forecast on how AI infrastructure spending goes over the next four years and what kind of models we'll see as a result.
Speaker 1:This is a very bullish take on AI infrastructure that I thought would be interesting to read through. I continue to assess that we are on track for models that can replace a wide variety of human labor sometimes four to sometimes four to fifteen years from now. It's a big gap. Right in that singularity calculator we have going, he says, currently, the world does not have any operational one gigawatt plus data centers. However, it is very likely that we will see fully operational one gigawatt data center before mid twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1:This will this likely will be a part of a 45 to 60 gigawatt of total compute across Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, AWS, Anthropic, OpenAI and Oracle, Google and DeepMind, and x AI. So everyone's building huge clusters. They're all investing a ton in CapEx, and it will net out to something between forty five and sixty gigawatts next year. His median expectation is that these largest one gigawatt data center facilities will hold, between four hundred and five hundred thousand NVIDIA Blackwell chips and be used to train four to the twenty seventh, FLOPs or four e 27, so four times 10 to the twenty seventh FLOP model sometime before the 2027. Such a model would be 10 x larger than the largest model today and a 100 x larger than GPT four.
Speaker 1:Each individual one gigawatt facility would cost 40,000,000,000 to manufacture with 350,000,000,000 total industry spend across 2026. Now the big question is how confident are we are are we on scaling up those models? There's a wide range of takes around how easy it is. Clearly, we saw with GPT 4.5 and Lama Behemoth that just scaling up, you have to be very careful about what you're scaling up. The actual underlying design of the model matters a lot.
Speaker 1:By the 2027, he expects a fully operational two gigawatt facility with total AI compute across all companies raising reaching 90 gigawatts. That'll be a lot of inference. These two gigawatt facilities would cost 95 to a $100,000,000,000 each, and total industry spend would reach 500 to 600,000,000,000. By the 2028 Let us bridge. The the largest single facility to be a three gigawatt facility holding 1,000,000 NVIDIA Blackwells That's Rubin mix.
Speaker 2:Three nuclear reactors worth Sub of energy.
Speaker 1:Yep. Costing a 150 to a $165,000,000,000 to build capable of a one e 28 FLOP training run. A one e a one e 28 FLOP training run represents a computational effort thousands of times greater than what was used to create GPT-four, allowing the AI to process and learn from vastly more information. Total AI data centers would reach a 130 gigawatts combined with 900,000,000,000 to a trillion spent by the AI industry over 2028. That is a lot.
Speaker 1:But that matches up what everyone's saying. Everyone's marshaling the capital. Everyone's planning to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think we we wanna look to Meta's earnings next earnings call, October 29. Yep. Zach is gonna feel pressure to say the biggest number. Yep.
Speaker 2:And we should probably we should probably stream that live Yep. Through a a companion stream.
Speaker 1:It'll be fun.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm look I mean, I just think that's gonna be a big indicator of do they push all the chips in?
Speaker 1:Literally. Yeah. By 2029, it starts to get very fuzzy to predict and his forecasting powers break down. How AI continues to scale, whether we've encountered data related or other algorithmic bottlenecks, what AI capabilities have already emerged, and how economically valuable those AI capabilities are will be key to whether the economics favor continued scaling. Needless to say, building a $150,000,000,000 individual data center campuses and spending a trillion on AI infrastructure would get very difficult to sustain financially, let alone to increase dramatically year over year.
Speaker 1:I feel like the trillion dollar cluster is within reach. I mean, it it needs to be probably distributed across all the different companies. But these numbers don't they're not as scary as I think. And you think about, like, across the hyperscalers doesn't scare you? No.
Speaker 1:Because the across across the hyperscalers, you have almost 20,000,000,000,000 of market cap, maybe 10,000,000,000,000 of market cap. And so you're looking at, okay. So they need to move 10% of their market cap into this project. That's not 50% of their market cap. Can they liquidate 10% of their market cap and and put it towards this?
Speaker 2:It's at current prices, and they would have to lever up Yeah. Significantly.
Speaker 1:No. Not significantly. 10%. Like, they would need to take 10% of their of their equity, of their
Speaker 2:I know. But if you have a massive correction between now and then, it starts to be starts to be quite a bit more than 10%. Sure.
Speaker 1:But, I mean, a a trillion dollar spread across the MAX seven isn't it isn't actually that much. I mean, NVIDIA is a $4,000,000,000,000 company. They're they they they're all they're all a trillion dollars. Right? So, I mean, it it I I I agree with this conclusion.
Speaker 1:2029, it gets crazy. And then the real question is, like, okay. What about the $5,000,000,000,000 training run or the $10,000,000,000,000 training run? But just purely, like like, is the money there? Like, the money feels there.
Speaker 1:The the the less clear thing to me is this question of how AI continues to scale, whether we will in encounter data related or other algorithmic bottlenecks. And and then the question
Speaker 4:of Well, I'm thinking that people
Speaker 1:times more money. Are you actually getting a thousand No.
Speaker 2:But but when you look at results, it's like it's it's more likely that it'll be an energy bottleneck. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's another good one. It's just Where you're gonna get Can you build
Speaker 2:nuclear reactors worth of
Speaker 1:energy a
Speaker 2:year. In two years
Speaker 1:from now. Yeah. When when it takes us thirty years to build them. So, yeah, there's a big, big question there.
Speaker 2:We gotta check-in with the nuclear bros. Yeah. Because a lot of wasn't wasn't it the last time we had The nuclear bros. Yeah. He he he was saying he was gonna have a a first reactor in, like, twelve months or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He's working on it. So I mean, a lot of the he he was going kind of mid scale, I think, 10 megawatts. And so if you're, like, you're talking about him not just making the first one, but then making 10,000 of those, which is a lot to to generate this much electricity. We did talk to the nuclear company at Palantir Dev Day, and he was saying that he's much more encouraged by bringing nuclear like the original GE plants online, the one gigawatt, like the large scale nuclear reactors.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Doug's point is like energy Can talk When a premium is placed, when there's more demand, there's more capital chasing energy, energy will come out of the woodwork. Yeah. So there's You're good. Gabe in the chat says Buffett is good for 400,000,000,000.
Speaker 2:He He
Speaker 1:does have a lot of cash right now. Right?
Speaker 2:He has, I think, like, 350 ish billion of cash on hand.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine? He just gets super AGI pills.
Speaker 2:Sam if Sam does a He's deal 99. If Sam if Sam can do a deal with Buffett, I mean
Speaker 1:I mean, he's the he's the final boss. It's the final boss. There's no one bigger that he hasn't been able to do a deal with. I mean, he even did a deal with with Elon back in the day. You know?
Speaker 1:He's done deals with every single person at various times, pretty much.
Speaker 2:Yep. What if Buffett ends up owning all the data centers because they just get super levered up and just go bankrupt? He buys them for pennies.
Speaker 1:Can see it. I mean, he loves he loves rail. He loves
Speaker 2:I am compute. Infrastructure. I become compute. Yeah. Berkshire just becomes the next hyperscaler.
Speaker 1:It be insane if Buffett's vindicated and just like his model holds forever.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's pretty much It's held Lindy. It's held for his whole career. It's pretty Lindy at this point.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine he just winds up owning every power plant in America?
Speaker 2:And just It's so crazy. So
Speaker 1:He just dies.
Speaker 2:Berkshire is up 2% over the past six months.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:So 2.2% to be clear. Hit that gong for both of them.
Speaker 1:Congratulations. 2% gain. Sending a lot of cash.
Speaker 2:Lot of cash. You know, they're the the market cap is just just basically three times their cash on hand.
Speaker 1:Wow. So Three times their cash on hand.
Speaker 2:In other news Elon names Anthony Armstrong Good news. As a new XAI CFO. Strong name.
Speaker 1:Armstrong, strong arms, the financial markets
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:During complicated fundraise at x AI. The New York Post headlines write themselves. Let me tell you about not x but fin dot ai, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance management Number one in competitive day costs, number one ranking on g two.
Speaker 2:Chat Mark in the chat is Yeah. Asking about TPP and merch. We this first merch run we did, we we didn't sell. We just gave it away somewhat randomly. We're making more.
Speaker 2:We actually have a design meeting right after the show today to get into it. So it is coming. This next time, we will make it available for the world and the chat will get first access to it. For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We'll drop it right at
Speaker 2:the end of an episode. I gotta stop wearing it.
Speaker 1:So that I know you're teasing everyone.
Speaker 2:Stop teasing.
Speaker 1:Now they're on the suit. David Holes, the founder of Midjourney says, my previous startup, Leap Motion, made the best hand tracking to this day and an amazing open source AR headset, Northstar. Now the tech is getting deployed by Globus
Speaker 2:Great pain.
Speaker 1:Surgical to surgical Oh, I work
Speaker 2:for Globus Corp. Globus. Oh, what? Oh, I work for the Globus Megacorp. I work for the Globus Center of International Business.
Speaker 1:Globus is a great name. I It's good. It's like, well, we do business on the around the globe and in The United States. Globe US.
Speaker 4:Globus. Globus.
Speaker 2:Globus.
Speaker 1:We gotta get the CEO of Globus on. This sounds like a great company. They are deploying these AR headsets to surgical theaters around the world. 85 degrees.
Speaker 2:Billion dollar company undervalued just on the value of the trademark alone. Globus. Great. Great.
Speaker 1:Let's hear it for Globus. Huge Globus fans here. This is a very cool tech. It makes a ton of sense in a medical setting. Obviously, you're not wearing the headset for fun all day.
Speaker 1:It's a professional environment. There's always been enterprise applications here. And, of course, it's a medical device, and it's adding a ton of value to a high paid doctor's routine. You can probably put the best, most cutting edge technology in there. If it's 10, it's probably cheaper than the, you know, the chair that you sit on in a medical setting.
Speaker 1:So congrats to David Holes for being on an absolute run. The the Leap Motion story is fascinating. I dug into it a little bit. It seemed like they were about to sell the company to Apple, and then Apple had printed, like, welcome letters to everyone on the Leap Motion team. And then something happened.
Speaker 1:The deal fell through at the last minute. David was, like, you know, in and out, had a really rough run with venture capitalists, then went back to mid journey. Didn't raise the dime. You love to see it. Bootstrap founder.
Speaker 1:And him and him and Marc Andreessen were going back and forth. Did you see that yesterday?
Speaker 2:No. I missed it.
Speaker 1:So David Hulse posted something to the effect of like, hey, any other Bootstrap founders in SF? And it's like, to call Midjourney a Bootstrap company, and it is a Bootstrap company. They haven't raised venture. Yeah. But it's like the biggest company ever.
Speaker 2:Mark oh, I did see it.
Speaker 1:And And Mark's like me. I I bootstrapped a 16 z.
Speaker 2:Like, I own 200 hundreds of millions Hundreds of millions. Revenues. Love to see it. Yeah. I didn't see this yesterday either, but US is taking a 10% stake in Trilogy Metals.
Speaker 1:I've heard of this company.
Speaker 2:It was a $480,000,000 Canadian dollar market cap company.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yesterday, it is now $1630000000.00.00. Canadian dollars.
Speaker 1:Well, we need metal. So that's exciting.
Speaker 2:How many I don't know what the exchange rate's. Probably pretty rough.
Speaker 1:I have no idea. Well, me tell you about Adio, customer relationship magic. Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level The
Speaker 2:next
Speaker 1:CRM. Tim Cook is likely to step down as Apple's CEO. According to Bloomberg, John Turnis, who I'm dying to have on the show, gotta make it happen, get to him before he becomes CEO potentially. Apple's senior vice president of hardware engineering is expected to take over. Interesting because you don't see him in all the keynotes.
Speaker 1:He's not the biggest face, but he's clearly doing something right at Apple. And, you know, for all the discussion over, do they get AI right or whatever? Like, the hardware is good.
Speaker 2:Nominative determinism. Turn us Turn
Speaker 5:us around.
Speaker 1:Turn us around. Okay. I see what you're doing there. Yeah. Like it.
Speaker 1:Bloomberg notes that Apple will now likely
Speaker 2:Johnny Appleseed.
Speaker 1:Tim Cooked. We know this. Tim Cooked.
Speaker 2:I saw a graphic of, like, all the different products that that Tim Cook has like six, you know, overseen. Yep. And it's actually remarkable. I think he will be while he certainly isn't being celebrated in the AI era, he will be celebrated in the fullness of time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's two very he's dramatically underpaid. Yeah. I hope that the history books will remember his name for just exceptional execution on Steve's vision that Steve's Steve's visible vision.
Speaker 1:Totally. Steve. Totally.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, whatever your view on Apple, whether you're long or short, get on public.com investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi asset investing, industry leading yields. They're trusted by millions. I have some
Speaker 2:And they just launched direct indexing, which is very cool, specifically because it allows you to you know, if you have outperformance with one stock Mhmm. Underperformance with another, you can actually recognize those losses.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:And so it can be more That's cool. Tax efficient way to get exposure
Speaker 1:to To a broad swath Yeah. Companies. Interesting. In one go. Cool.
Speaker 1:I have a bit of cognitive dissonance about Apple. On the one hand, apparently, they have this, like, belief or something that, that Bloomberg was reporting that they don't believe, like, chatbots are gonna be a dominant form factor. Like, they've really leaned back in terms of chatbots. Siri has kind of been slow. I've been trying to use Apple intelligence to query ChatGPT, and it's still like it's I have to click a button every time.
Speaker 1:It's very like, it doesn't seem like they're really moving quickly. And it's been, like, years now since ChatGPT has come out, and I would have liked a deeper integration on day one. They could have bought something. They could have trained their own model. Like, there are so many companies that have been able to catch up.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel like it's complete rocket science. The the narrative of, like, the foundation model commoditizing, even even if they have something that's not at GPT five or Quad 4.5 Sonnet or even Gemini 2.5 level, like, I'd it would still be better, and it would improve my experience. But they've really leaned leaned back on that. So so that's, like, a really, really clear, like, bear case for, like, they're not winning AI. And then at the same time, whenever we talk about hardware and the next the next devices, we just keep coming back to, well, not only is the hardware extremely good and sticky and, you know, just like the best devices and the best supply chain and Tim Cook's done a fantastic job of man managing the the the tariff battles and whatnot.
Speaker 1:But they also have iMessage, which feels like an incredibly powerful social network that is very, very hard to rip people out of.
Speaker 2:Social graph.
Speaker 1:Social graph. And so when we when we demo Yeah. I somebody
Speaker 2:was posting yesterday Apple better start moving faster and it was in reference to ChatGPT's like booking.com integrations. Yeah. It was fairly, you know, it was getting quite a lot of engagement. But I was surprised by that considering that Apple's never been able to really directly tax like retail. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's they don't they don't get a percentage of every dollar that's spent on meta.
Speaker 1:Well, they do take a cut of booking.com in the sense that Booking pays Google, Google pays Apple. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it's way less. That that revenue is not necessarily directly threatened if Google has more Yeah. You know, they're they're happy to keep paying their version of the Apple tax. Yep.
Speaker 2:But again, it's it's not like Apple is getting billions of dollars a year from Amazon and they're there's they they would suddenly not be getting that if ChatGPT starts dominating in retail. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe what the move internally or the mood internally is at Apple is something like they don't see AI or LLMs or chatbots as disruptive to Apple's hardware plans. They think that even in a post AGI world, people will still be carrying iPhones. And so they can just sit and wait until they get some foundation lab to come to them and say, we're gonna pay you $10,000,000,000 a year to be the default.
Speaker 1:And they're just like, yeah, we'll just wait and you you can come to us today. But we're not we're not doing the deal until and so, like, it's it's gonna be uncomfortable for customers until someone ponies up.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It still feels hard for me to imagine a world where Siri is just replaced by another brand. Like, what Siri does functionally in terms of being an assistant layer on top of the hardware device, it feels would it it feels very unbelievable to me that Apple would say, like, we're going to let this other assistant directly integrate throughout the entire device. Like, that feels like a big step. It does.
Speaker 2:Because the phone in many ways already was operating as, an assistant. Right? It's like the center of your world. It can do anything you want to do in your digital life on your behalf. So giving that up feels major.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I think we have to see more announcements out of Apple this year on this front. I know based on the last they still have longer time horizons internally around their, like, AI turnaround. Right? They're not saying we're fixing this this year. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's very much, like, we're we're fixing this over the next twenty four months. Yeah. Right? They're and, again, I I still stand by Apple and and believe that the competitive threats OpenAI just doesn't feel like a legitimate hardware threat today.
Speaker 1:No. Not at all. Because of the lock in around the Apple ecosystem. And it does feel like Apple might be looking at AI more as a profit pool. And once that profit pool gets really big, then they're gonna wanna go after it and they have they will have a ton of leverage at that moment and so they'll be fine.
Speaker 1:But just chat interactions are not generating tens of billions of in profit yet. And so but Google Search is. And so Apple says, hey, we gotta go get a cut of Google Search. They did and they've been very successful there. Once the profit pool of chat interfaces becomes really big, Apple will probably say, hey, we gotta get a cut of that.
Speaker 1:And Yeah. Maybe at that point, we will invest. But we understand the the economics, and we're not supply constrained on data centers. And so we don't have to pay a high margin. We can do Apple silicon chips for, you know, our inference or something or our own custom model.
Speaker 1:There's a million different ways that they can, that they can, like, get their fair ish share of that market when the time is right because they will still have the leverage. And they don't see that their leverage is decreasing because people are not churning from iPhones based on the lack of ChatGPT integration or the lack of LLM integration Even though Yeah. It's like a pretty crazy feature to be missing in 2025. It just still hasn't really hurt them. I bought a new iPhone.
Speaker 1:I didn't sweat.
Speaker 2:And I'm still waiting for my iPhone that I order. I'm waiting for my iPhone that I ordered weeks before John just walked into a store and bought an iPhone off the shelf.
Speaker 1:Scale issue. Scale issue.
Speaker 2:Unbelieve unbelievable.
Speaker 1:The iPhone was delivered delivered to me.
Speaker 2:Here here I am saying, thinking like, wow. There is so much demand for Apple, the new iPhone, that that they can't deliver me at one.
Speaker 1:I mean, to be clear, like, was only one in stock that I was able to purchase and it just happened to be a model that I was happy with. But I didn't get to pick a color or anything like that. I was just like, yeah, just give me what you Anyway, speaking of iPhone apps, open up your Eight Sleep app and tell me how you slept last night because you had a tummy ache from lack of alcohol consumption. I was boozing it up with the white wine at the luxurious event, and I slept for seven hours and got an 84. I did pretty well.
Speaker 2:I slept for five hours fifty five hours fifty six.
Speaker 1:Five hours? Wow. Oh, fifty six minutes. Okay. That's close to six hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And my eight sleep is very concerned about my health.
Speaker 1:Oh, no. Well, did you get over
Speaker 2:I 100 got a 75.
Speaker 1:And you know what you gotta do, George?
Speaker 2:I know what I gotta do.
Speaker 1:Let's go. I win. Credit where credit's due. Been on a run. I've been doing very well recently.
Speaker 1:And, anyway, Mick franchisee shares, I remember this Happy Meal promo back in 1991 for Earth Day. You could ask for a free tree at McDonald's, no purchase necessary, and they would give you a sapling, I guess. Pretty cool to see.
Speaker 2:That is so
Speaker 1:big. Some of these McTrees over three days later thirty years later have have grown into behemoths. And so after fifty years, this man's family is moving out of his childhood home. In the nineties, McDonald's gave out pine seedlings for Earth Days. And look at this tree.
Speaker 1:It's now 30 years old. What a beautiful tree.
Speaker 2:My happiest childhood memory Yeah. With McDonald's. They had a deal with Sugar Bowl
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That if you bought anything at McDonald's and you brought the receipt to Sugar Bowl, you could get a $5 lift ticket.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I was doing that all day. Nice. I mean, that was like the greatest trade of all time. You get a make you get, like, a
Speaker 1:McFlurry This is thing. And then you
Speaker 2:get a $5 lift ticket.
Speaker 1:You used be able to take a Coca Cola and go to yeah. You used to be able to take a Coca Cola can and go to Six Flags for cheap. There were a bunch of these, like, cross promotional, like, deals that were going on. I think this is a great merch idea. I think some startups should do this.
Speaker 1:If you're super not AGI pilled, give away a tree sapling and be like, yeah. This tree is still gonna be around. It's not gonna get paper clipped. I'm long humanity. Keep thinking, folks.
Speaker 1:Keep thinking. This also reminds me of our idea for merch, the bonsai tree. I really like the idea of sending everyone a bonsai tree to remind them that progress is measured in decades, and you should never stop working. Keep grinding. Anyway, what else is going on?
Speaker 1:Do we ever cover this?
Speaker 2:This is this is something that's probably worth mentioning. Yeah. Jay Bull says, here's the thing with today's OpenAI pump. Elon is u He t t h u r hates Sam. Sam is getting all the attention these days and nobody cares about Elon anymore.
Speaker 2:I fully expect the mother of all pumps from Elon sooner than later because he's a narcissist and no way he doesn't do it.
Speaker 1:What a funny way to frame like what happens in the capital markets. Like like oh, yeah. Like like they're going to do a pump because there's spikes something. It's like
Speaker 2:Spite pump.
Speaker 1:Spite pump. What what about just, like, building something that delivers value?
Speaker 2:I mean, Tesla's at an all time high right now.
Speaker 1:I mean, the Roadster the Roadster video dropped yesterday over the weekend. It looks so I'm 100% gonna get one. I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:Roadster It's
Speaker 1:actually makes me.
Speaker 2:Having the the aesthetics of a supercar, but having, like, great self driving is Yeah. That's a recipe for a
Speaker 1:hit. Wait. We have a perfect guest to talk about the Tesla Roadster. We have the is it the CEO of DuPont registered for running us?
Speaker 2:Corrected. Tesla's not at an all time high
Speaker 1:Oh, no.
Speaker 2:Peak last year, but getting close. Getting close.
Speaker 1:Well, have our next guest in the restroom waiting room.
Speaker 2:We'll break him in. Absolutely pumped for this.
Speaker 1:Oh, look at this. What's happening? Fantastic background.
Speaker 2:Great. To you. Having me.
Speaker 1:How are you doing?
Speaker 2:We couldn't have said yes faster to having you on the show. I think I'm I'm a I'm a daily active user.
Speaker 1:100% of the registry.
Speaker 2:Of the products. And Yes. Yeah. Super excited to to get the update from you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, guys.
Speaker 1:Yes. Please, guys. To be here. Kick us off with the introduction on yourself actually describe the company for anyone who might not know.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Sure. So I'm I joined the company two years ago as you will you will hear from my accent. I'm not from Paris, Texas. I was born and raised in France.
Speaker 3:I came to The US sixteen years ago. Started my career with in the luxury and tech world with Louis Vuitton and moved two years ago to to lead DuPont Registry Group. We're going through a major transformation while disrupting the luxury automotive industry. Mhmm. The group has been building for the past forty years amazing trust towards the audience of, you know, car enthusiasts and car collectors.
Speaker 3:Today, we're the only one place where any car collector can find the product of their passion. And we're transforming the industry. We're building a a brand new tech platform to have a for ecosystem of dealership and clients, a way for them to transact online. We're very excited about it. The market opportunity is huge, and the group is is moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1:What what's the shape of the business now, and then how much do you wanna move to online platforms? Is is I want one click checkout. Yeah. Like like like, how far does this go?
Speaker 3:I want one click checkout too, and this is what we are working towards.
Speaker 1:It's great.
Speaker 3:So the group has been the foundation of the group is, again, forty years of legacy and trust.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:We have today amazing brand within our portfolio, events that are gathering all the enthusiasts and car collectors, some of them the the most affluent car collectors in the world. And we want to use that foundation and the data that we've been accumulated for years to to build really an omnichannel tech platform that will allow anyone when they see a product and a car that they want to be able to purchase it online and get delivered at their home. This is what we're building on right now. And the recent investor that we announced today that brings capital to to the company, we're gonna use that capital to build that tech platform. So expect a lot of new changes in the in in the next few years.
Speaker 2:What any you know, what is what what I kind of you you mentioned events, more seamless transactions. That all makes sense. Are you guys planning anything on the auction side, or you feel like that is well served by the industry today?
Speaker 3:No. No. No. It's it's definitely something we have in mind. It's part also of our where I came from in the luxury world, it's it's it's all about the omnichannel and being being taking care of our clients wherever they want to buy and whenever they want to buy.
Speaker 3:So if you look today in the car space, the the auction piece is quite important, and we are launching in a in a few weeks our own DuPont Registry live auction platform that will support our audience and and allow us and our dealers to sell their cars. It's gonna be a disruptive one. You will see a couple of announcements are coming in the next few weeks.
Speaker 1:How do you think about defining the, like, the the the tone, the vibe around what type of cars make it onto the platform? It feels like, you know, dollars a dollar. You could you know, you could have every car on there, but you have to define the the brand somehow. So how do you think about what is an appropriate car to work with? And and how do you how do you let someone down if they bring something that's just not quite there a little bit too not special enough?
Speaker 3:To me, we don't let anyone down because at the core of our audience is there is passion. Sure. So whether you're you're talking about and we had we had someone the other day from Eastern Europe that rebuilt the Dacia from his father. Wow. There was a strong passion about that Dacia, and we actually talked about it.
Speaker 3:And with Petrolicious, one of our brand, we we we did a movie about this this guy. So to me, it's it's it's all about that passion component. Yeah. Of course, for the past forty years, we've been the leading marketplace, and our positioning is luxury and high end luxury, and we want to continue to go there. But my job is not to say no to my clients.
Speaker 3:It's to be able to welcome them in our ecosystem and serve them and make sure that they evolve with us throughout their their collectors journey.
Speaker 2:Give us a high level view of the current state of the automotive industry. We obviously are we're car enthusiasts ourselves, but cover tech about a thousand times more closely than the automotive world. But seems like we're at a very interesting time right now. You have pressure from on on the Chinese market. You have trade wars.
Speaker 2:You have Back forth on electrification. Yeah. Electrification that Yeah. Enthusiasts have certainly not, you know, overall not not been huge fans of. You've also seen, you know, the massive depreciation on that front.
Speaker 2:If you're an automotive enthusiast, nobody wants to buy a car that that might look pretty and drive well. But if it's gonna depreciate 40% in the first year, it's just not you're never going to really get that enthusiast love. So I'm curious what kind of trends are you tracking most closely and kind of new activity over the next twelve months?
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's a very good question. So all you mentioned, it does not really affect us today. We're in the used cars, luxury space, and and and we're in the business of our clients are looking for something they want, not something they need. So from a from a pure purchase funnel standpoint, they are not really affected today by tariffs and and otherwise.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. You will see in the next few weeks, we're partnering with Boston Consulting Group, and we're gonna release a a luxury car market report.
Speaker 1:Oh, cool.
Speaker 3:Nice. We've seen first few thing in that in that report. We are talking about $100,000,000,000 market, so it's gonna be a it's quite interesting. There is a huge market opportunity, not at all digital today. What's interesting too is that we see that electrification is not there.
Speaker 3:There is nothing in if you're looking at the luxury car market, people are looking for performance. They are looking for fun. They are not looking at their daily drivers, so they will look more for that car behind me
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:A 2001 Ferrari five fifty Maranello Stunning. Than an electric car.
Speaker 4:Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The other the other thing I think is worth calling out, part of your guys' opportunities, is, like, I have bought. I've purchased a number of cars sight unseen online. And maybe that's just because I was born in the yeah. I was born in 1995. I grew up purchasing everything on the Internet.
Speaker 2:I have no problem seeing a video of a car. I might get a remote PPI done on it to have that confidence, but I continuously am happy to purchase cars out of state, you know, wherever. I don't need to see them. I've done that, I think, at least three or four times at this point, and I expect to do that many more times in my life. Do you think that that is part of your guys' opportunity and that the the new generation of of car owners and enthusiasts are just willing again, it doesn't matter if if the car if the spec you want is out of state, great.
Speaker 2:I have no, you know, no problem kind of purchasing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's actually very interesting. Today, we see that about 99% of the purchase decision starts online. It takes couple of months for anyone to decide which cars they want to buy, and there is a lot of online research. Yet less than 1% of those transactions are happening online.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So there is there is a lot of potential to disrupt the market and disrupt the industry. When you're talking about buying a car site unseen, and this is the power of our brand and our ecosystem, we have the trust from millions of people that have been, you know, looking at our brand and coming to our brand for the past forty years, and they trust the brand to show them the right product with the right condition and be transparent about the product. And this is what we're offering at the national audience for The US. You'll be able to buy a car from California, get it delivered in New York. And behind the scene, we will be the intermediate to facilitate that transaction and make sure that you trust the seller and the buyer and trust both parties.
Speaker 1:How do you think about the the next generation getting into cars? What's different about Gen Z or millennial car collectors? Are are they going as far are they going less far back into historical or retro cars? Or or does every generation just love the car that they had on the poster in their bedroom forever, and you're kind of locked in a time capsule? Or or is there something unique and different about the millennial generation or the Gen Z generation as opposed to the Gen Xers or the boomers?
Speaker 3:I think there is there is something unique is that they are discovering the they are discovering the luxury car market through experiences and and and community. And that's what we are doing at the group. We're organizing many events every year to build that community and to continue fostering the dream within the community. From a purchase standpoint, as any as any other car enthusiast, you will start with the car that was that you had as a poster in your in your bedroom when you were 14, and that will be your first car, but then you're gonna evolve throughout your collection. The good thing is that today, we're seeing a transfer of wealth between generation.
Speaker 3:The passion is also transferring. So we're actually seeing that our audience is getting younger.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And, definitely, to your point, the audience is ready, and they are they are used to buy those products online and luxury products online. And this is where we're going to offer them that ability.
Speaker 1:How are you thinking about marketing and content production? I engage with DuPont registry on x, actually. I see every new auction, and there's a lot of facts and interesting details in there. It's very interesting to me. But there's so much that you can do with cars when you're marketing a platform because the cars themselves are interesting.
Speaker 1:Like, that car behind you, I could watch a twenty minute video about it. It's fascinating. I probably have, by other creators. Have you how are you thinking about partnering with creators, either sponsoring content or bringing people in house, agencies? Like, how do you think about the correct shape for just raising the awareness of DuPont?
Speaker 3:It's it's it's all about stories to me. Mhmm. We need to tell stories between a a driver and his cars. That's what we're doing with one of our brand, Petrolicious. Every Friday, we have a a new movie about a car story.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 3:This is what we want to do. We want to make sure that we we tell the story of the enthusiast community. We tell the story of the car collectors and how they build their collection from the first purchase and to until their their latest investment. And this is really how we're today, how we're targeting our content strategies, refocusing on that.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Jordan, anything else?
Speaker 2:Amazing. We'll we'll send you some posts after this, but we've featured DuPont. Just Thousands of times. Thousands of times in our in our early episodes. It was a a core part of the content.
Speaker 1:Please. Like, never stop posting on X. It is the best little drip feed. It just it just sprinkles itself in with all the other tech news. And I see it and I love it.
Speaker 1:And I usually tag a friend when I say, you should get this car.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. I can't. I'm I'm I'm very excited you guys have again, you know, it's just a daily active user. I'm very happy that you guys will have more
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, investment. And and let us know if we can help you recruit anybody in on on the technical side.
Speaker 1:Did you share the terms of the deal? How much was raised? Anything like that? Do you have any numbers to share for us?
Speaker 3:No. Unfortunately, we we don't disclose financial numbers. Okay. What I can tell you is Francois is one of the top collectors in the world as well as a very well known race car drivers. He brings a lot of validation of our strategy.
Speaker 3:He's a big he's a big tech guy, and he loves tech as well. He he sees what what we are building from a tech and AI standpoint with the data we have, and we're very happy that he that he's on board with this.
Speaker 2:But one number, you guys reached unicorn status. That's correct. Right?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. There we go. Hit that gong, John.
Speaker 1:Congratulations, man.
Speaker 2:There we go. You'll you'll appreciate this. We got we're waiting we're getting waiting for the right car to put this on. So this is the game of the mail.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's the 599.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. Not for sale, though.
Speaker 2:No. Yeah. Another one. They're they're these days. Awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for coming on, and congratulations being well, son.
Speaker 1:We appreciate it. We'll talk to soon. Cheers. Bye. And if you're looking for a luxury watch to go with your luxury car, you know where to go.
Speaker 1:Get bezel.com. Your bezel concierge is now available to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch.
Speaker 2:Add cars, bezel.
Speaker 1:Tyler, what do you think about this GPT Image one Mini post? Angel is saying they didn't fix consistency apparently. The prompt was remove all the ingredients from the burger and keep only the top and bottom buns. Leave a gap between them. Keep keeping the same spacing as if the fillings were still inside.
Speaker 1:Why are you laughing?
Speaker 2:Sorry. Taylor with a deep cut. He says, DuPont registry is gonna love my Nissan Murano Clock's Cabrio play.
Speaker 1:Let's go.
Speaker 2:Let's hit the gong. This is most underrated car on good.
Speaker 1:I think What other this is convertible SUV two door are you getting? A a Range Rover Evoque?
Speaker 2:We really botched it not. There's one for sale right now with almost a $100,000.
Speaker 1:They're available.
Speaker 2:It's for $10,000.
Speaker 1:And It's honestly a great production car. You lean out the core you lean out the side, take some video of the other cars. It's a great production.
Speaker 2:This is the We gotta pay point out. Car. It's a v six.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Give it up for v sixes.
Speaker 1:That's not bad. Underrated. I don't have a four cylinder. Absolutely. Tyler, did you see this post about the the remove the toppings from the burger?
Speaker 1:What what do you think is going on here? Is this does this push your AGI timeline out or pull it in? What's going on here?
Speaker 4:I I mean, I think just from this, like, I I think it's we can probably just assume that, like, nana banana is there's some kind of, like, architecture difference
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:Where it's not just, doing diffusion on the entire image. Yeah. I mean, it's maybe it is.
Speaker 1:It might be it might have, like, tool use. And I feel like tool use has gotta come to image generation soon to just be like, for this prompt, you actually just need to cut one half of the image out and cut the other half and just stitch them together using basically, like, Figma or something. Like, the basic lasso tool is, like, what you need. So just give the AI image generator that instead of trying to rerender the entire image.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And and, like, maybe that, like, kind of tool use was only in the training step, and it's, like, kind of been distilled into the weights somehow. Yeah. But it does seem like there's some it's, like, it looks like it's just, like, segmenting something out. Yep.
Speaker 4:And then it just does kind of in painting on that part and then it just gives you the new image where where GPT is, very clearly. It's, like, you're it's doing the whole image, all
Speaker 1:of it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Sean says vision reasoning is far from a solved issue.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm very excited to see where where that goes. It feels like tool use and reasoning, all that's coming to image, but just just slowly. This is gonna roll out slowly. I I demoed one image generator project that was clearly cutting out pieces of the image because the grain was even the same, and it wasn't rerendering the face. And so you could say, make this a Gigachat or a bodybuilder, and it would add the muscles.
Speaker 1:But you'd look at you'd zoom in on the face, and it'd be pixel perfect. And it's like, that's not rerendered. Like, I can just tell. Anyway, Grok is still on a tear on on OpenRouter. 1,000,000,000,000 tokens every three hours.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of plaques. They're doing well. We already dug into the Grok stuff. That's fun. And KSA says the dumbest person you know is currently being told you're
Speaker 2:absolutely right. Right.
Speaker 1:By ChatGPete. This is a repost. Someone else posted this. We we talked about this. Somebody just found a banger and just re re reappropriate.
Speaker 2:You that yesterday. You said No. You didn't. You said I finally posted hits, and suddenly, I'm craving pumpkin everything, binge watching horror movies and planning ultimate costume. Who's with me on turning this month into pure spooky magic?
Speaker 2:I said, you're absolutely right, John. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Compound two four eight says, if I am Sundar Pichai, I will bury all competing foundational models in negative gross margin tokens for eternity. I will never take my foot off the pricing gas. To merely compete, I will force you to dilute your equity into oblivion. Sam will drown in my tsunami of cogs. So a very
Speaker 4:I mean written
Speaker 2:piece. The dilution is real.
Speaker 1:Dilution seems real. Certainly yeah. It's interesting. I talked to somebody a long time ago who was like, there was a moment at maybe AWS or maybe GCP or one of them where there was the option to to get in a price war, and they chose not to. And so all of the hyperscalers, all of the clouds have
Speaker 2:It's like the soda companies. Right? If you if they gotten a price war, it would suck all the profits out of the industry.
Speaker 1:For sure, there's that. There's also just, the way I heard it described to me was, like, if you're a CFO, you're just kind of like, but I want but I want 30% margins. Like, that's my goal. So, like, why would I do why would I do low margins when my goal is 30% margins? And so it's almost just, like, kind of hard coded into the fabric of these financial institution or the the finance functions at the large companies is that it's like, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's, this world where we're getting this price war and there's risk. Like, maybe we could win, but we could also just continue to get 30% margin. So I don't know if this will play out this way. Maybe maybe on the on the API side. But, Tyler, have you noticed any any, like, real price fight going on in the foundation model layers?
Speaker 1:They're all pretty price competitive, right, on a per million token basis. Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. They're all pretty close. I would say maybe Anthropic is a little bit more expensive.
Speaker 1:More expensive. But it's supposed to be a better model. Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And and it's like
Speaker 1:It's all this Pareto
Speaker 4:franchise stuff. You look back, it's like, oh, the models are are staying the same price. But it's just because you're you keep updating to the new model. Yeah. Like, you're using GPT 3.5 turbo, it's like obviously super super cheap now compared to what it Yeah.
Speaker 4:So there's some something there, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, Barry Weiss dropped a letter to all CBS News employees, and there's some debate in the comments as to whether or not this was AI generated.
Speaker 2:What was what was the call out?
Speaker 1:There are em dashes, but that's it. And so I'll read it. And I I think she wrote it herself. But, she says, dear colleagues, I'm thrilled and humbled to be writing you as the new editor in chief of CBS News. Growing up, CBS was a deep family tradition.
Speaker 1:Whenever I hear that tick tick tick or trumpet fanfare, it sends me right back to our den in Pittsburgh, the opportunity to build, on that legacy with you, hyphen, and to renew it in an era that so desperately needs it, hyphen, is an extraordinary privilege. Right now, I imagine you all have some questions. I do too. My goal in the coming weeks, days and weeks, is to get to know you. I wanna hear from you about what's working, what isn't, and your thoughts on how we can make CBS News the most trusted news organization in America and the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'll approach it the way any reporter would, hyphen, with a new with an open mind, a fresh notebook, and an urgent deadline. She drops the Oxford comma. This feels extremely human written to me. And, of course, it should because she's been a writer for a decade, way before LLMs were a thing.
Speaker 1:So why would she lose that ability to do that? She has a couple she has 10 points that she defines journalism around. It reports on the world as it actually is. It's Even fair preview. Fearless.
Speaker 1:And factual You can
Speaker 2:say journalism.
Speaker 1:Journalism uses all the tools of this digital area.
Speaker 2:A lot. You may
Speaker 4:as well.
Speaker 1:Journalism that understands the best way to serve America is to endeavor to present the public with facts first and foremost. I look forward to meeting many of you in the days ahead and listening and learning to you. I am profoundly honored to join you, Emdash. And I can't wait to get started with gratitude and excitement, Barry. That seems very seems very, like, well written.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Gold is up at $4,000 for the first time ever. It's a record run for futures. Comes amid concerns about the economy's outlook. Gold has been on such a run since February.
Speaker 1:A little bit of a sell off post GFC, but has been on an absolute tear going from $2,000 per troy ounce to over 4,000 in just a few years. Gold soared to 4,000 a troy ounce for the first time, signaling an investor rush into alternative assets at a time of concern about the outlook for The US economy. The price of precious metals has surged this year more than it did during some of America's biggest crises, raising more than 50%. Futures run up in 2025 has outpaced rallies during the pandemic and the 02/2009 recession, not since the inflationary shock of 1979. Has gold catapulted so much higher in a year?
Speaker 1:There's been
Speaker 2:I think I look at the gold chart and I think, I'm in danger. The US dollar is in danger. Yep.
Speaker 1:So Bitcoin was at an all time high last year or yesterday too. Everyone is flying to other other assets, whether it's AI stocks, energy, Bitcoin, gold, everyone wants something else. But what what a run for gold.
Speaker 2:We have our next guest in free stream waiting room.
Speaker 1:We
Speaker 2:have Rami from Evenup. Bring him on in. Bring him in.
Speaker 1:To the TV show.
Speaker 2:Hey, guys. How's it going? It's great to see you. We're doing great. We got our we got our Gong ready for you.
Speaker 1:Yes. Introduce yourself, the company, and any of the news today.
Speaker 5:My name is Rami. I'm the CEO and cofounder of Even Up. We are happy to announce our $150,000,000 series e led by Bessemer. There we go.
Speaker 2:Congratulations. Yeah. Breakdown the company history. Yeah. How you got into the category.
Speaker 5:Yep. We started even up about five years ago. This is before legal tech or generative AI was all that interesting. And the premise was to ultimately even up the playing field for personal injury victims in The US. Yeah.
Speaker 5:So every year, there's about twenty million injury victims where often these cases take a lot longer than they need to to settle or settle for a small fraction of what they're worth. And so our goal is to even up that distribution by helping ultimately their attorneys. So it's a b to b start up. We're helping them across the whole life cycle of their injury cases. Think of it as doing the heavy work for these attorneys for them at what I call superhuman quality.
Speaker 5:We're helping them settle their cases faster, helping them settle their cases for larger amounts, and removing a lot of the manual work as we go through a lot of these workflows for these attorneys and their staff.
Speaker 2:Are are you guys already running up against the the oppositions or or the defenses AI themselves? How how is the battle evolving?
Speaker 5:Yeah. We we don't really see too much of that. The crazy thing is this is our fourth round of financing in the last two years. Wow. And we're on this really rapid growth trajectory where we see about 10,000 cases a week.
Speaker 5:But when you think about just the TAM here on 20,000,000 cases, we're about 1% penetrated today. So in a way, even though we're it's a big number. It's still really early days in our space, so we haven't seen any of that come through. What we have seen is ultimately being able to change some of the operations of these law firms for the better. So one of our firms has scaled revenue by about 70% year on year on a base of over 100,000,000 of revenue without adding headcount.
Speaker 5:Mhmm. Another one of our firms have used one of our products in mediation in real time where they turned a $50,000 offer into a multimillion dollar offer. So it's kinda crazy to see the impact we've been able to have, but it's still early days.
Speaker 1:Is plaintiff screening a different business?
Speaker 5:So, yes. Not fully. The way you can think of this is the way we help is, you know, imagine somebody gets injured. They would typically call an injury attorney. They would sign up.
Speaker 1:They see a billboard. They see a billboard. And the billboard says, injured? Call this number. They call that number, and they describe their injury.
Speaker 1:And then there's someone needs to qualify that, and it's probably not the most highest paid lawyer. And it feels like those intake forms could be processed by AI, but is that something you're looking at doing?
Speaker 5:So, yes, that's really interesting. So we we don't do the intake call themselves. Yeah. But as soon as the intake call is done Okay. The transcript of those calls is something that we would analyze.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Speaker 5:To say, hey, law firm. You need to prioritize this case.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:Or this might be a case you wanna draw. Yep. We don't do the signing up of the case. But as soon as there's any information, whether it's audio or document based info in these cases, we read that, we scan it, and we ultimately make decisions off of that with the, obviously, with the with the attorney hand in hand.
Speaker 1:How are, like, hallucinations and and how are you thinking about, like, lawyer in the loop? Jordi was talking about this. There was some case about a consulting group that turned over an analysis to a city and had to give them a huge refund because Yeah.
Speaker 2:Was Deloitte AI generated. Delivering a a study that was just inventing, like, judgments that no judge had actually
Speaker 1:It wasn't grounded in, like, the ground truth of case law. And I I imagine that, like I I I mean, the stakes are pretty high.
Speaker 2:The model just had a really
Speaker 1:But also, I mean, you you you could you could wind up in a situation where, like, your firm is, like, forever tainted by a certain judge, and the judge is like, I remember what you did. It was that was really sloppy. I imagine that your clients and your customers care deeply about that. Like, what are the what what are the strategies for avoiding those types of situations?
Speaker 5:You you both brought up really great points here, and and it's it's a really funny thing because bookstore was like, hey. Generative AI and legal tech are all shoe ins for each other, but folks generally tend to forget accuracy really matters Yeah. These cases. You can't be 90% of the way there in a legal letter. That's how you get this part.
Speaker 5:Right? Or that's how you get those again, some of those headlines that you guys just mentioned. Yeah. And so the way we think about this internally is you need to have done a lot of cases. Mhmm.
Speaker 5:Because every basis point of accuracy matters. Mhmm. It's another way of thinking about it. We do a number of different legal workflows for these attorneys. But if you think of one letter called the demand letter, that's one of the documents that we prepare for our for our firms.
Speaker 5:The quality from this and us being able to repair this two years ago versus today was very different.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Right? When we started, keep in mind, this is before GPT three and and the big you know, all the craziness around AI two years ago. We have to have a human in the loop to QA these letters.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:And if you think about the inputs in these cases, and we're at a point now where we're gonna be seeing millions of pages of medical records, medical bills, police reports, fraud, underlying documents, we've had to fine tune these models, one, to be able to get a much higher level of accuracy than what you typically see off the shelf. And so it's an what's a simple example of this is if you think of something as intuitive as, hey. List me all the medical visits that a plaintiff has seen in a case. If you just go into any of your, you know, models today that are publicly available, ask it to do it for you, you'll see the accuracy is just not good enough. Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And so this is where we have to tame our our own data service model just to do something as intuitive as be able to pull out a date. Then when you look at these case files, you get to see time stamp dates, signature dates, date of birth.
Speaker 1:Sure. There's so many different dates. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Gets pretty complicate complicated with even just one piece of extractions, and that's how we have to build this with time. You have to do a lot of you gotta have to get your reps in to get the quality where it needed to be.
Speaker 1:How are you growing the business? Are you running billboard ads? If you're an injury attorney, call this number, or or are you doing state generous?
Speaker 2:You should really do that on the +1 01. That'd be great.
Speaker 1:Or or or are there, like, legal tech conferences that you like, what what does the top of funnel look like for you?
Speaker 5:Yeah. This is the the the crazy thing as well about our space is this is such a massive space that folks just don't necessarily know too much about. But when you mention those billboards. Yeah. And and for sure, you you folks are saying the same as in Jess, but when you see one of these firms Yeah.
Speaker 5:Has a thousand billboards in California
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:That's I I don't know any of any SaaS business that has a thousand billboards. You know what mean? Like, massive marketing machines, and they're and based based on our math is around 300,000 of these injury attorneys Wow. And about 20,000,000 cases, and they're all over the place. Right?
Speaker 5:Yeah. One of our largest customers, as an example, is in Alabama. Mhmm. You would have never thought it would be in Alabama. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Massive firms in California, massive firms on the East Coast, and it really follows population.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Where are there people? There's gonna be injuries because it can mean anything from motor vehicle accident to a dog bite case, even police brutality cases. There's many different ways folks get injured. And so as long as there's people, there's gonna be personal new attorneys. As long as there's personal new attorneys, they're all b to c.
Speaker 5:They're all kind of like they want to be found. Yes. If you think about our go to market approach, we have a over a 100 person go to market team that's territory based. So this is where we would go local in LA and SF, wherever it might be, to be able to get these folks, and that's where, you know, a lot of this is outbound as opposed to inbound.
Speaker 1:Did you ever think about the Atrium ClearSpire model of, like, bolting an actual law firm onto your software software company. You have an LLC bolted to the, to the c corp with, like, an MSA. That was a model that's been tried a few times. They think people are trying it again. But did it ever occur to you to try and try your own cases, team up with a lawyer, build a firm?
Speaker 5:Yeah. For us, like, we we we wanna the way at least I see this space evolving is I see this as very much a winner take most. And even though we're in vertical SaaS here, it there's, like, elements of Uber and Lyft that feel true to our space where the first startup that gets 10% of LA will win LA. Yeah. Because every time you see these cases, the better this whole system gets.
Speaker 5:I'll just I'll elaborate on that a little bit more, and that should hopefully explain why we're doing this in a very b two b fashion. But the one thing you folks should know is even though there's 20,000,000 cases, 99% of them are settled privately.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 5:And so there's a real wide gap in performance in terms of how long these cases take to settle and how much they settle for. And generative AI alone can't solve that problem. You need to be able to see a lot of cases for you to be able to do that because most of this data is sitting in the inboxes of a very fragmented industry. And so for us, the goal is how do we expand our go to market as quickly as we can to be able to go from 1% to 10% to 30% market share. And the if you want you wanna think about as a key metric, more cases we see, the better the system ultimately gets.
Speaker 5:And if we're just very focused on, I mean, we we'll never do this, like, competing against our own customers, you're only gonna get of the cases that are out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 2:Do you think that legal AI is underhyped as a category? Obviously, there's a ton of funding flowing in, but there's not, you know, on the code generation side, it's sufficiently hyped. Right? Every researcher at every company, you know, is talking about the the leverage they're getting. Every startup founder is talking about the leverage they're getting.
Speaker 2:Every CTO is talking about the leverage they're getting. Public company CEOs, Legal is like, you know, just happens, you know, that we certainly have plenty of lawyers in tech, but they're not, you know they just don't tend to be in a position where they can talk about stuff in the way that regular software engineers can. So it feels like you could be seeing the same type of revolution happening, but it just would be much, get much much less coverage.
Speaker 5:No. For sure. I I think that there's obviously been you know, when we started even up a couple years ago, you you folks can imagine it's like legal tech sucks, AI sucks, personal injury sucks. And, like, my background is I used to work at Waymo, and I used to work as, like, a tech investor before that. And so it's definitely a lot there's a lot more attention today in legal tech than there's ever been before.
Speaker 5:Is it again, is it overblown or not? I think in the end of the day, the thing that makes our space so different when we're selling to these injury attorneys, the thing you folks should know is it's a very fragmented, highly competitive, and most importantly, commission only industry. These folks make a percentage of the value of the cases that they settle. So unlike other parts of, you know, AI or legal, there's no experimental ARR. Right?
Speaker 5:These are not, like, big firms where they can afford to spend a million dollars on something. And because of how competitive it is, like, you better believe this thing can actually help their case operations. Otherwise, they'll churn. They don't have the luxury of, you know, being able to have big IT budgets, etcetera. And so in that sense, if you think about our 2,000 customers, it wouldn't be around if they're not seeing real demonstratable ROI in terms of increasing case outcomes or using duration of these cases.
Speaker 5:And in that sense, you know, I I do think it is call it, it's still early days. And and if you think about the mission of the business, it's not, I I think it's just gonna be it's inevitable in in terms of those 20,000,000 cases being able to be settled, not, again, all over the place, but as fast as they can for the fair amount. And so in that sense, when we're just 1% penetrated, it's it's not over hyped, least in my mind. It's, like, a clear ROI.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. And there's that that customer alignment where they're incentivized to adopt as much AI as they possibly can because they're not billing hourly. Right? They're just getting paid when these cases settle versus, you know, a traditional law firm if you if something they used to be able to bill ten hours for suddenly takes thirty minutes and they had a lot of margin in that ten hours, there's not there's not the same incentive to adopt as as what you're seeing.
Speaker 5:You you nailed it. And and the other thing that's also different about this wave it it's funny because I was having a conversation with one of our one of our customers about this. Some of these folks are still on prem, but they're one of our biggest customers. And so when when you go to a law firm and you're like, hey. You gotta be on the cloud.
Speaker 5:They're not gonna understand what you really mean. When you're going to these law firms and you're like, here's a legal letter. It was drafted instantly. You can evaluate the quality of this thing relative to your own staff because you're a subject matter expert. You know what it you know, this legal letter does.
Speaker 5:And that's what allowed the space to adopt a lot quicker than anything that we've seen before in legal tech. And and, again, I I think, again, you you really pinpointed, but they really genuinely care a lot about being faster, settling settling quicker, spending less time on review because anything that they save, they get to keep right as their own margins.
Speaker 1:Totally. One of my first jobs ever was, doing paper filing at a law firm as an intern. I was like a kid.
Speaker 2:And You're a paper boy then. You're kind of a paper boy now. We're still paper enthusiasts.
Speaker 1:I I hadn't I hadn't put it together until I until I actually just had this conversation and reflected on, like, how crazy that was that I mean, I guess the cloud, like, barely existed then. But, yeah, it was paper back then. That was wild. Mean, I computers were around, but, like, my job was sort of, like, yeah, in inventorying this stuff. So, yeah, law moves slowly.
Speaker 1:Like, like, a lot of the law firm partners, they get, like, effectively tenure or, like, my process works. And I like it printed out. Or I like I like, you know, having the network. The intranet at my office is reliable. I don't know about putting it in Google.
Speaker 1:So, like, people gotta figure it out.
Speaker 2:When do you when do you expect the first AI legal company to IPO? Still feels like we're probably a cup couple years out, but I imagine the revenue for you or some some of these other players could get their, you know, get to that $500,000,000 mark or wherever whatever the wherever it needs to be to to be interesting to to Wall Street.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So this is my just on the paper piece real quick, and I'll I'll answer the other question. And it's it's so funny. The way you're gonna kinda think of this, there's been so much innovation and more of the consumer Yeah. Like, how to get leads, like, the consumer part of personal injury where, like, know, attorneys are advertising on TikTok,
Speaker 1:on
Speaker 5:social, etcetera. But on the operations side, there's been very little innovation back to your paper days. Mhmm. They're still doing stuff on paper. We've had some of our folks ask to pay our our annual SaaS subscription with monthly checks to give you
Speaker 1:a sense of what
Speaker 5:the ops piece can be in this space.
Speaker 1:That's wild.
Speaker 5:And so this is the first time really in history that these operations of these firms are changing pace substantially. Right? Because you now can do a lot more with a lot fewer staff. Yeah. And if you think about, again, like, where we're going with this, you're gonna see these firms be just be able to handle a lot more volume.
Speaker 5:And and if you think about the the amount of cases that first line of attorneys take on today, you'd be surprised at how many cases they're not taking on because they just don't have capacity or they can't make the math work because, again, of their of their model.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 5:Sorry. I think I missed the other question. What was the other question again?
Speaker 2:Oh, just kind of yeah. IPO timelines for the category. When do when do you expect the first companies to get out?
Speaker 1:It Yeah. Does feel like an entirely different, like, market. Like, there's no, like, clear comps that everyone knows. It's not just like, oh, another, like, you know, SaaS company that we can just immediately comp to. So it would be like a new Yeah.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:in legal industry, law firms can't go public. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Want exposure.
Speaker 1:Gonna be different. Yeah. I would love to hear some color on, like, how the public market might receive some of these.
Speaker 5:Yeah. I I mean, in terms of, like, timeline, I'd say, again, the the 500,000,000 of ARR median ARR, you know, business going public being the threshold there. I think we're a couple of years away, but, you know, I mean, we're we're scaling super fast.
Speaker 1:Like Yeah.
Speaker 5:We're more than doubling year on year on a on a meaningful base. So I do think we're maybe two, three years, not us, but Yeah. For one of these Categories. Us as well. Two, three years out before going public.
Speaker 5:In terms of, like, how the markets might receive it, it's so interesting. Right? That these are such different businesses where you're gonna see a lot more TAM
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:Than you've seen in traditional software. And so I I I kinda say this. One of our one of our biggest customers is is paying us 4,000,000 a year, and they have a 100 employees at the firm.
Speaker 2:Wow. Think of the implied
Speaker 1:Yeah. 40,000 revenue per head. Per head. Yep. Exactly.
Speaker 1:So you're delivering a ton of value to this.
Speaker 5:Yeah. It's because one of the things that comes up with with some of our investors, hey, is, like, you're focused in the very niche part of Yeah. Companies. And 300,000 attorneys out of, you know, over a million is maybe 30% of the base in The US. But when you're making 10 x more revenue per head than traditional SaaS.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 5:Your TAM is actually meaningfully bigger than a lot of these SaaS companies
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 5:Sure. That are out there. And so, again, I do think it'll be interesting to see much more rapid growth, much higher base SaaS businesses than you've ever seen before
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And how the market would would be able to evaluate that because it is it is gonna be different than traditional SaaS.
Speaker 2:Totally. Well, congratulations on the funding milestone. I'm sure we'll see you back here again soon. Maybe one more round before the end of the year. You've already
Speaker 1:done a couple. You know?
Speaker 2:But looking forward to the next conversation.
Speaker 1:Have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much for hopping on. Cheers. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And now it's time for our song. Find your
Speaker 2:happy place. Find your happy place.
Speaker 1:Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and twenty four seven concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better folks. Go to wander.com. When Lisa Hsu took over as chief executive of chip of chip company Advanced Micro Devices, AMD, in 2014, the company's market value was just under $3,000,000,000. Decade later today, it's worth more than $330,000,000,000.
Speaker 1:A 100 x.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:The more than 100 fold increase that reflects how deftly AMD has pivoted its strategy from mainly producing graphics cards for gaming and personal computer processors to more tightly focusing on the data center chips that power power the artificial intelligence revolution. The share price rose 24% on Monday after the company announced a partnership with OpenAI to build six gigawatts of power for inference. The deal has given rocket fuel to AMD's share price and the company's ambitions to complete to compete with rival chip designer NVIDIA, which is by far the dominant competitor in the AI semiconductor industry at more than 10 times the valuation. Now the AMD share price is kind of up and down, and and we're we're we're now at all time highs, but just barely. 03/08/2024, the stock was trading at $207.
Speaker 1:Now it's at $2.11. And so they they've already ridden an AI boom from $50 a share, $60 a share, up to 200, then back down to $80 a share, and then back up to 211 shares, $202,111 dollars a share. So, Monday's deal specifics, specifies that OpenAI will be issued warrants for a $160,000,000 shares of AMD stock at a marginal price of 1¢ per share. Once OpenAI hits certain deployment targets and once AMD share price rises, the final tranche of shares will be granted only if AMD's stock hits $600 a share. So it needs to three x and become a trillion dollar company, basically.
Speaker 1:For now, the market capitalization with a market capitalization of 4 and a half trillion, NVIDIA is nearly 14 times the size of AMD, and most analysts' estimates peg the market share for graphics processing units or GPUs as they're known. Thank you. Wall Street Journal. They power AI training and inference at more than 75%. So 75% of the market is is NVIDIA, and they're trading at 10 times the price of AMD.
Speaker 1:AMD faces pressure from companies such as Broadcom, which produces application specific custom chips for com for customers such as OpenAI. And so the OpenAI deal might have shifted the balance in AMD's favor somewhat. How AMD got to this inflection point is a is a combination of careful strategic planning and being in the right place at the right time. Over the last few years, what's been important to us is to understand the workloads that would really drive the next generation AI training and inference, Sue said in an interview, this deal is a huge expansion of the work that we're doing. For much of the past decade, AMD's archrival has been Intel, the troubled chip designer and manufacturer that recently received major investments from NVIDIA and the US government on the strength of popular designs for the graphic chips used in the PlayStation and Xbox gaming systems and the CPUs or main computer brains.
Speaker 1:Thank you for explaining what CPU is, Wall Street Journal, using consumer PCs. AMD has steadily eaten away at Intel's market share for years. Intel has been bogged down by a costly effort to turn around its chip fabrication business. AMD, however, spun off its manufacturing business now known as Global Foundries in 02/2009, while Intel has continued to pour money into its unprofitable foundry segment even as even as it fell badly behind the more technologically advanced rivals such as TSMC. And so this is where everyone always says Intel should have gone fabulous.
Speaker 1:They should have split the companies off. That's what AMD did. They split off GlobalFoundries, became a fabulous semiconductor design shop like NVIDIA. The business is similar to NVIDIA. And now, this seems like they're catching up.
Speaker 1:I mean, stock's up a
Speaker 2:100 Somebody asked Lisa Hsu if they're gonna partner with Intel. Buco Capital says they they gave a very she gave a very awkward and funny response. She says, well, as you know, the supply chain is something that we work on, you know, very very meticulously. I think we have a very strong supply chain. We're certainly partnered with, you know, TSMC across the supply chain, Just to that earlier question, we're absolutely prioritizing building in The United States because I think that's super important.
Speaker 2:This is the USAI stack. We wanna have as much of it in The US as possible. And, you know, we continue to really look at, you know, how do we ensure that there will be a strong supply chain, you know, going forward. So when you have it typed out, it really you can tell she's trying to
Speaker 1:It's always tough to stuff a mic in someone's face and then transcribe it. Who knows? We've been going back and forth on the AI bubble. I think we should close out with the clearest evidence that we're not in an AI bubble from Trung Fan. He says he's not worried about the AI bubble bursting until corporate social accounts start having these exchanges again.
Speaker 1:And, he back in 2021, December 2000, December 2021, Meta says this is look gonna look great in the metaverse. And the official Pepsi account says, you know it, friend. And Budweiser Beer chimes in and says, welcome brand friend. Wag me. And then Pepsi says, thanks friend.
Speaker 1:Wag me with the rocket emoji. And, this was a
Speaker 2:That was a moment.
Speaker 1:This is a dark time.
Speaker 2:That pretty much was that was actually two weeks or about a week after the actual topic Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Keith had called it.
Speaker 2:Keith called it perfectly. Everybody should have post notifications on for Keith. Yep. He's probably gonna if he if he makes a call again, I think people will be listening.
Speaker 1:Yes. Anyway, keep monitoring the situation, folks. Stay sharp and we will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I cannot
Speaker 1:wait You have
Speaker 2:the spot have
Speaker 1:stars on Apple Podcast Fantastic. And spot and tune in Friday for our interview with Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI.
Speaker 2:Samah, it's time.
Speaker 1:Thanks for watching. See you tomorrow. Bye.