Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Zero Click Marketing is a marketing strategy podcast about content marketing, audience research, and how brands grow when clicks matter less. Hosted by Amanda Natividad, Chief Evangelist at SparkToro, the show explores how marketers reach audiences, build influence, and earn attention in a zero-click internet. New to the show? Start with Episode 2: What Zero Click Marketing Actually Is.
[00:00:00] Rachel Elsts Downey: we had people who had influence in front of the people that we want to be in front of mentioning our brand. And so mentioning them in their newsletters, on their LinkedIn, on their all their channels and so we'd get inbound and they would just tell us, "Hey, heard from this person, heard from this person."
[00:00:14] And that's the kind of stuff that's like it's so worth the spend because we were closing those deals at like 67% or something like that which is crazy. And we would close them off of like one call. And so it was like, yeah, we're gonna go do more of these because of that reason.
[00:00:32] Amanda Natividad: I'm Amanda Naida and welcome to Zero Click Marketing.
[00:00:38] Amanda Natividad: All right, Rachel. So, I'm really excited to have you on as a small business owner because I think, right, I think a lot of our listeners also think that the digital world is just fundamentally different than it was 10 years ago. And I think, like it or not, everybody is doing zero-click marketing.
[00:00:59] Maybe they don't call it that, right? But we know things like attribution isn't perfect. It hasn't been for a long time, but it's really more broken than ever. we know that there are just some decisions you make because it's right for the business, it's right for your employees, or it's right for the customers.
[00:01:16] You might not be able to prove ROI of it, like, immediately, but you know that it's a good decision. So, we will have a, a far-ranging discussion. No, like, a normal discussion. Like, we'll just jam for a bit. Something I'm curious about is even just how did you start your agency? Because it's rel- it's relatively new.
[00:01:37] I know you guys have been around for a little while, but, like, relatively new. How did you know it was the right time to start it?
[00:01:42] Rachel Elsts Downey: I don't think I knew it was the right time to start it. It was that it, I needed to start it. Like there was something, there was stuff going on in my own life that required me to do something different. And so, from an opportunity perspective, I think the thing that did happen that made it kind of click the dots for me in terms of this is something I should pursue that was maybe more on a professional side versus the personal stuff that was going on, is I had run, I was like head of client services or client success, I think it was what it was called, at a content marketing agency.
[00:02:10] And I had that job for,five to seven years. Like it was like under a decade, but definitely more than five years, something like that. And I remember we were constantly in charge of like lead gen campaigns. It was lead gen. We used webinars and lead scoring, and it was like email marketing.
[00:02:24] It was all the things that was, that was being scored, and that was like the job is to generate leads for our clients. And we had this framework and all this kind of stuff. And I had been doing that for a long time-ish. And in this window of time and opportunity, I started to get into the world of podcasting.
[00:02:38] And podcasting worked so fast comparatively than what I was doing before at this other agency doing all of these other things based on this framework and lead scoring blah. And so from a business standpoint, I just remember having this like very clear moment where I was like, "Why are more brands not doing this?
[00:02:58] Why are they not creating podcasts and using these podcasts to generate relationships and build connection and build content, So that was kind of like my aha moment of just going, that that was like early on in 2015, to 2010s is when I was at that agency. I started getting into podcasting in 2017. and that has changed vastly in the last little bit, as you can imagine. but that was really my moment is I was like, this works, and it was not like, it was very zero-click marketing. It was not all the stuff that I was doing as the client success person. And so for me, that's when that aha went off.
[00:03:31] Amanda Natividad: That's super interesting. You said that podcasting worked faster. What do you mean by that?
[00:03:37] Rachel Elsts Downey: I mean, it was like, it was within six months of, my first client, first business partner. We started working together. We launched his podcast alongside the launch of his brand new company. So it was a brand new brand. And within six months of having that podcast, so creating the content, getting it out to the world, creating relationships, he had over six figures worth of revenue in his pipeline. That's what I mean. I was like, "Um, what?" So, that's what happened. And so then I literally went to him and I was like, "Hey, we should help other people do this because it's working
[00:04:10] Well, now I'm curious. So you've been in the podcast world for, like, about a decade now. do you think it's easier or harder to launch a podcast today than it was 10 years ago? You know, it's funny 'cause I was thinking about this conversation and where we were gonna go and kind of the, the mess that sort of feels like marketing right now. I actually think if we stick to keeping things simple, you're gonna get a better outcome. And so, do I think it's easier to launch a podcast? I think it's about the same. I think in terms of, like, pulling together all of the moving parts that's required to launch a show, it's about the same. I think there's efficiencies that are created now with AI and workflow and production and all of that, but I, I think it's the same, truly. you know, when I started podcasting, it was audio only, and then it's changed quite a bit.
[00:05:01] And so even just having the video component in and of itself is, it kind of offsets some of the efficiencies that have been gained. I will say the piece that, that, that might, pull me to say that it's more complicated now is that our taste factor is going up. And so we wanna see people in studios.
[00:05:19] We wanna leverage, like, in-person opportunities for developing our shows and our content. And, people don't always think about how complex that actually becomes, even with all of the things that we have at our disposal.
[00:05:30] Amanda Natividad: I mean, I was thinking too about, like, I wonder if I would've had an easier time with this show, right, like five years ago or today. Yeah, and I, and I don't know. You know? Like, because you don't launch a podcast purely for lead generation. You know?
[00:05:46] Rachel Elsts Downey: Some people do, but they shouldn't.
[00:05:49] Amanda Natividad: okay. That's fair. Some people do. And I... Well, what I mean by that is I think you typically start one, or maybe you should start one, when you have a couple of marketing or business goals to fulfill. Maybe a lead gen is the primary, you know, the primary goal. But I think it's also, like, well, maybe you also have some existing content that you want to take to the next level.
[00:06:12] Maybe you want to go a little bit deeper on some topics you already cover. Maybe you want to just repurpose all the content you've made and kind of turn that into a show where people can just listen to it. So, in my mind, there are lots of reasons to do it that aren't just, "Grow your business."
[00:06:29] Rachel Elsts Downey: You know, I kind of synthesize it into, like, three primary, where I'm like, are you doing this to grow your brand, drive demand, or connect with your audience? And honestly, you can say all three. But one of them takes a priority, and it helps you shape all the decisions. Because all the things that you just listed are good reasons as to why you should do it, but how you then structured it, how you then think about the distribution, the premise development, what channels it goes to, for what and when.
[00:06:55] Like, all of that kind of stuff comes into consideration. So even, like, going through this process of talking to you about, like, is it simpler now than versus when it was, like, 10 years ago or whatever it was, now I'm, I might be changing my mind. It might have been simpler then simply because it was audio. And so you had less, less leverage. You had less consideration. You had a couple less ingredients
[00:07:16] Amanda Natividad: That's interesting. So your podcast, Voicemails with Rachel, what is your goal with that? What's your primary goal with that?
[00:07:23] Rachel Elsts Downey: So I have since taken, I have since handed it to the marketing team. But when we started, Voicemails With Rachel that we've rebranded now to Straight to Voicemail, the goal for me was to have a podcast because we are a podcast company. And so I was like, "It's silly for us to not eat our own lunch." and then the other kind of reason that I wanted to have it is because I wanted to use it as an opportunity to build relationship and learn from the people that we're trying to build relationships with. And so one of the reasons that all those years ago that, that the brand launch alongside the podcast worked so well is because he was having conversations with people that he wanted to, like, build a relationship with. But because he was having conversations with people he wanted to build a relationship with, he was learning what those people care about. Mm-hmm. He was learning about how they talk. He was learning about the things that, the pain points that they had, all of those kinds of things. And so then when he went to build his services or, or even create content, he was a mirror back to them.
[00:08:20] And so they immediately were like, "Oh, this person understands me. This person gets me. He's talking to all my friends anyway, so he must be credible." Like, it does this human connection thing that makes people ultimately trust you a little bit better. And so when we went to do the, the podcast at Share Your Genius, that was my, my goal, is I'm like, "The only way to stay fresh is by, is by talking to my buyer, and I've got to talk to them.
[00:08:42] I've got to ask them questions. I've got to learn from them. Otherwise, we'll become obsolete."
[00:08:46] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. And also that right there, that is zero-click marketing. what it is. so now I want to talk about zero-click marketing. So how are you tracking success of your company's marketing? Like, your, your marketing, like, for your business. How do you look at that now?
[00:09:05] Rachel Elsts Downey: from a content perspective, I just want to see that we're contributing in a meaningful way. Like, are we creating content that positions us as a credible authority? And I'm not really tracking, are people reading our blog? I'm not actually asking for metrics on the newsletter.
[00:09:17] I'm not doing any of those things. I am looking at, audience growth over time, specifically though for myself. Like, is my audience growing? Because I know that if we're creating content for the founder, we're gonna generate more opportunities long term. So that's one thing I'm looking at is just are we going up and to the right? and then the other thing that we look at is sales qualified leads. How many leads did we generate, and how many of those leads were unqualified versus converted to the next step? Those are the, those are really the only things we look at on a consistent weekly basis.
[00:09:46] Amanda Natividad: So a c- there are two things I want to unpack. One of them is something that I think you're essentially saying, which is, sure, you, you could dig into the, your newsletter metrics if you want to. Like, you can check whenever you want. You can, you can try to optimize for every CTA that's there.
[00:10:05] You can deep dive and see, like, which links do people click. Maybe, maybe at some point it's worth somebody's time on your team to do that. Maybe. But the thing I want to push back on for, on like, to other people, but like through you, which
[00:10:21] is, would it change your decision-making?
[00:10:24] I think you know the answer to that. It's like, no, because you're not gonna be like, "Oh, we're not gonna do a newsletter, we're gonna do something else," because you know that you need one for your business. It keeps everything else sustainable, it helps your audience know what you guys are up to.
[00:10:38] Like, it just makes sense to do. So when people tell me, like, "No, but you have to like, you have to check, you have to measure everything, look at all the KPIs, look at all your open rates," I'm like, yeah, you can. And I'm not saying that these things don't matter or you should never look. It's just you have to ask what are you going to do with the data?
[00:11:01] Is it going to change your mind? If so, how? And if it doesn't, then move on. And it's sort of like move on by like, now, now go do something that does move the needle on your business or that does help you m-m continue to make decisions and create more content or whatever that is for you.
[00:11:20] Rachel Elsts Downey: Yeah, I think, I think the truth of it is, is, what we've done, and again, small business to your point, we know how many new logos we need to get this year to hit our revenue goals for the most part. And that's with us looking at our churn rate, looking at all of those things. We have like a theory of victory of like how many of these new logos do we need to get this year to hit our goal? If we are not hitting that goal, so if we're not getting... And we know how many, and then we know how many leads we need to get per month to get to that new logo. So we kind of know that math. If we are not hitting the lead goal, that's the time I might like ask my VP of marketing, Adam, to pull up the, you know, open up the hood a little bit and be, and be like, "What are we doing? and what do you think we need to do to be able to get the leads, like to go up or down or whatever?" And then if he were like, this has never happened, but let's just play a scenario where if he was like, "Well, I'm spending 20 hours a week on this newsletter, and I know we're not hitting our leads," I would maybe say, "Hey, let's maybe reduce like
[00:12:22] the time investment that we have on this, you know, on this resource or whatever." but at the end of the day, that's all I care about is I'm like, "However you think we need to get there, it, that's why I hired you." marketing to me compounds trust. if it's not compounding trust, what are we doing? And so content is the only way to do that. And so I believe wholeheartedly in us doing content. What content we create, what levers we pull, who the people are that distributed the content, that's kind of the fun puzzle piecing things that I like to be in the conversation with. But at the end of the day, if Adam is like, "This is what we're doing," and it's hitting our lead goal with our right clients, you know what I mean?
[00:12:59] Then I'm like, "Then you should get to play. Like you you should go do what you want." I also think that you should have like one experiment that you're running at all times. Like what's like the one thing that we're doing that is unproven, but we wanna try it? Like I think the reason that people become marketers is because they're creatives and they want to like color outside the lines and like try different stuff and like to have somebody optimizing for little things at a small business, it doesn't have a big enough impact for me to feel like it's justifiable.
[00:13:29] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. On that note, is there a recent experiment that went unexpectedly well, or even just maybe it didn't do well and you learned something really important there?
[00:13:39] Rachel Elsts Downey: Yeah, we, one of the things that's been, that has worked remarkably well for us is, working with partners. And so we have like a ton of different partners that we like to work with and, and it looks like a couple different things is one is we just come in as almost like in a weird way almost like an investment into their production.
[00:13:54] So we come in and we're like, "We'll take care of your stuff," either at like a really dis- discounted rate or we'll just do it for them. and last year we started to do it with a lot of people and just did it for them. And I was like, "Let's just do it because we're gonna show up everywhere and everyone's gonna like us and know us and blah, blah, blah."
[00:14:10] Well, what happens is when you have a small team and you start to just take on a whole bunch of free work, you start to realize that that free work isn't covering for the cost that it takes to actually do that and then because we were so busy fulfilling on that free work, we weren't also tracking, whether or not those partners were bringing us leads to cover the cost.
[00:14:30] and so we had to get really, really smart and tighten things up, to help make that way more sustainable and way more impactful. But the reason I did start go- going in on it from a chaos perspective was like, "Yes, we're all in," is because it was working.
[00:14:43] Because we had people who had, influence in front of the people that we want to be in front of mentioning our brand. And so mentioning them in their newsletters, on their LinkedIn, on their all their channels and so we'd get inbound and they would just tell us, "Hey, heard from this person, heard from this person."
[00:14:58] And that's the kind of stuff that's like it's so worth the spend because you, they, we, we were closing those deals at like 67% or something like that which is crazy. And we would close them off of like one call. And so it was like, yeah, we're gonna go do more of these because of that reason.
[00:15:15] that is zero-click marketing
[00:15:17] Amanda Natividad: it is. But also in your defense, these things do require some amount of volume or scale. Like, it isn't about like, "Oh, let's just find one good partner." It's, well, we have to find like a handful of really good ones, and we won't know if they're good until we work with them for a little bit.
[00:15:32] Rachel Elsts Downey: That's true. we learned that, both the hard way and, and the right way, to your point.
[00:15:37] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. That's a little bit like me for myself right now. Like, I'm doing a lot of free work right now, and I'm like, "Ugh, I'm starting to run out of time to do actual paid work." My free work being, like, this podcast.
[00:15:50] Rachel Elsts Downey: Yeah. Like, "Oh no, I'm working too hard on the free things."
[00:15:53] I think that's part of just growing up as a company too. It's like, you know, we, I've, we had sort of like this scrappy mentality, and we would just like do stuff and figure it out and boom, boom, boom. And then over the last like year, two years, it's kind of been like, "No, we don't need to be so scrappy.
[00:16:09] We need to get a little more like this." But it's because we've earned the scars, you know what I mean? And so now we can have a different posturing, not from an egotistical way, but just from a like, "Okay, this isn't actually sustainable."
[00:16:22] Amanda Natividad: So I want to talk about what you said a little bit ago about leads. So under, like you, you look at which leads are coming in, which ones are unqualified, which ones are more qualified. now you may or may not have some kind of formalized dashboard that tracks this, but I'm curious how are you sort of, I guess, evaluating whether X is a good, X or Y, right, is a good source of leads or a bad source of one?
[00:16:48] And yeah, so let's just talk about lead quality.
[00:16:51] Rachel Elsts Downey: Yeah. So we look at, there's kind of two categories that we look at. One is like if we've not had a conversation with them, then do they just fit like what we consider our ICP? Like are they on its face? Like are they a, you know, B2B brand that is SaaS or professional services? Do they fit that? Are they a company that's over the size of, you know, 50 employees?
[00:17:13] those types of things we'll just look at, and then we'll see like where they came from for real. Like did they come from a partner? Probably already qualified, to be honest, because the partner was like, "Yeah, you need to go talk to them because of whatever." did they come from ChatGPT? What did they search for?
[00:17:26] Like those are the things we'll then ask them on the actual call. So we'll look at it like that. And then when we actually have a conversation is when we typically move them out of unqualified. So we will always just have a conversation, and then we'll determine if they're qualified.
[00:17:40] the other way we determine if a, if a lead is s- qualified or not is Like we have marketing qualified and sales qualified, which might seem a little bit more like an antiquated way of doing something, but marketing qualified comes down to like those demographics that I was kind of saying to you.
[00:17:54] Sales qualified comes down to do they have budget authority, need, and a timeline? Like it's like s- it's old, old school sales whatever. Like did they express those things on the call? If not, they're probably not qualified
[00:18:05] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Makes perfect sense. And I can see too how, like, the kind of ICP that you're kind of looking for, like, oh, like maybe over 50 employees because, you know, that's sort of a proxy for do they have budget? Like, they probably have budget if they have over 50 employees probably.
[00:18:25] Rachel Elsts Downey: Probably. And then like
[00:18:26] and we have clients in all different ranges and different offerings and packages, but for the primary product we sell, we've learned that we want, a company that has like a coordinator, like, or like, or like a, somebody who's leading marketing in some way or fashion. Because when, when we don't have that piece, sometimes things just don't happen. And so we, we like to have that person in between. And so again, it's like so much of learning marketing is, is learning your company. And that sometimes just takes time, which is why it's like you kind of have to do a lot of things so that you can figure out, A, who you are, and B, like what actually is working, and C, what you actually want to do.
[00:19:09] Because I think that's also a true narrative that most people don't pay enough attention to is like, do I want to do this? Because you don't have to do things you don't want to do, honestly. There's enough ways to generate leads and opportunity that you're allowed to cut things off of your to-do list.
[00:19:26] Amanda Natividad: Absolutely. That also just reminds me of when people ask me, like, "Where should I go build my audience?" My answer is always, well, it's where your audience actually hangs out,
[00:19:37] and, like, go there. But also it's, like, the intersection of that and where you actually want to be. Like, if your audience is only on Quora
[00:19:49] and you hate Quora, like, I mean, I think it's...
[00:19:52] Well, okay, you either suck it up and just try to enjoy it or find some, like, greater meaning there, or you don't do that. Like, you... 'Cause whatever it is, like, you have to want to do it ultimately.
[00:20:04] Rachel Elsts Downey: have to want to do it. Honestly, especially when we're talking about the world of content, it's like you can tell when people are performing because they ha- have to versus creating because they want to. And it's like, to your point, it's like creating content isn't like the field of dreams. You know what I mean?
[00:20:19] It's like if I build it, they will show up. Like, no. It's like where are they already, to your point, and then is that a channel I want to invest in? And I think this isn't my, like, original idea, but it's one that I subscribe to. I think I learned it from Devin Reed, where he's like, "Pick your channel before you scale."
[00:20:35] And I think a lot of times when we talk to our, even our clients sometimes or prospects who come in, they're trying to be everyone to everyone across all of the channels. And I think social media is, like, there's no more owned channels in my mind. It's like it just is, you know? And so it's like, to your point, it's like, like should Sherry Jeans have a Pinterest page? Maybe. But it's like why? Do I want to do that? Do I have to, then I have to go find somebody who knows Pinterest. They have to build it. We have to figure out the strategy. Like each channel cr- requires a strategy. And it's like, do you have the time and investment and, and desire to want to do that?
[00:21:11] Amanda Natividad: Yeah, 100%. But then it's like you pick your channel, you scale that channel, or you get some really solid repeatable workflow, and then you go, you move on to the next
[00:21:23] Rachel Elsts Downey: Exactly.
[00:21:24] Amanda Natividad: I think that there's freedom in zero-click marketing, to be honest. And I think that if people, choose well, they will be happier
[00:21:32] You have to be happy. You have to not hate your job or what you do.
[00:21:37] Rachel Elsts Downey: Like, kind of.
[00:21:38] Amanda Natividad: Yeah, kind of. It's important. Okay, one k- one kind of final question. what do you think is working for you today in marketing, or not working, that was the opposite like 10 years ago?
[00:21:53] Rachel Elsts Downey: I think, like our podcast works for us, I will say that. but it didn't work when I was running it. So that, that, that's true. and I think it's because I have found in my own founder journey that, sometimes being close, too close to the thing creates unnecessary complication. So there are certain things I'd be afraid to ask for. There are certain things I would not hold people accountable to, or I would devalue what we do or how we do it because, I just think as humans sometimes we devalue the things that we're good at or the things that come that we just know. and so by getting other people to take ownership of the things that I believed in has allowed the channels that we believe in to actually perform for us. So that has been an interesting, journey. So our podcast is working for us very well. I think, I feel like I answered your question with both,
[00:22:44] with both of that.
[00:22:45] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. I love that. And that also leads me to a very beautiful segue into what I'm about to say, which is I work with your team. So friends listening, the team at Share Your Genius edits and produces my podcast, and it's better because they do it.
[00:23:01] Also the first several episodes or first couple episodes I edited myself, and I can do that and it's fine, and I'm sure anyone listening wouldn't, wouldn't tell because I didn't, there's nothing crazy that happens.
[00:23:14] However, it moves so much faster with your team. Because like when it's just me, I'm caught up in the, "Oh, I said that word kind of weird. Should I re-record the whole thing?" Which is not a great use of time. And maybe I did say it weird, but also is that the important thing to troubleshoot right now? Like maybe no one cares.
[00:23:36] So with your team, it mo- things get actually get done on time. They actually move faster, and it's just better. Like it's better when you have a team that, you know, like that can be accountable for the next step and will hold you accountable for your own deadlines.
[00:23:57] Rachel Elsts Downey: that's exactly true. I th- I've al- I've consistently said in the, in the world of content, but also in the world of like business, it's like I feel like sometimes when you're in the story, it's hard to see the story. And so when you let other people come in and help be a character in it or help you write it or whatever, it's like you're able to see layers that you couldn't before.
[00:24:15] And so now instead of you spending time on words that aren't moving the needle forward necessarily, you're able to see the bigger picture more clearly so that you can be like, "Ooh, I'm gonna do this episode next," or whatever it is. And that's what I've found to be true over and over again, even with our own marketing stuff.
[00:24:30] And, and like I've gone round and round with, Adam before on stuff just to be like, "Why are we doing this? What do you think about this?" But at the end of the day, half the battle is letting go for people to go do stuff. And then the data will tell the story eventually, and you'll have the confidence to know what to cut or what to keep or what to keep fighting for with you knowing that it's not generating the results that you want, but you just want it.
[00:24:53] Okay, at least you're making that decision. It's kinda like I'm gonna keep eating ice cream even though I know I really shouldn't, but I want to, so I will.
[00:25:00] Amanda Natividad: Yeah, I want it too. That's how I get my calcium.
[00:25:04] All right. This was a great conversation. My last question is, orwhere can people learn more from you and how can they hire you?
[00:25:12] Rachel Elsts Downey: LinkedIn is, one of the channels that we bet on, and you can definitely find me there. I go by Rachel Elsts Downey, 'cause there's a million Rachel Downey. So if you find me by Elsts, you will find me, the right one. and then to hire us, do the same thing. Shoot me a DM and we'll find time to meet and I'll see if you truly have, Budget, authority, need, and timeline. And we will go from there.
[00:25:31] Amanda Natividad: I love it. Perfect. All right, friends. Thank you for joining us for Zero Click Marketing. We will see you next week.