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On this episode, we feature a conversation with Army veteran and military spouse Meg O'Grady, Senior Vice President for Military and Government Programs for the National University System.
Because fewer than 7% of Americans have served in uniform, most Americans are unfamiliar with military service and culture. As a result, members of the military and Veteran community are at greater risk for disconnection and lack of belonging with the civilian community. PsychArmor’s mission is to bridge the military-civilian divide by educating and training a Nation. Each week, Duane France, a combat Veteran and Clinical Mental Health Counselor, will dig deep into the stories “Behind The Mission” - and create a conversation with organizations and leaders on how they are utilizing their expertise and networks to support the military-connected community.
Welcome to Episode 86 of Behind The Mission, a show that sparks conversation with PsychArmor’s trusted partners and educational experts. My name is Duane France, and each week I'll be having conversations with podcasts, guests that will equip you with tools and resources to effectively engage with and support military service members, veterans, and their families. You can find the show on your podcast player of choice or by going to www.psycharmor.org/podcast.
Thanks again for joining us on behind the mission. Our work and mission are supported by generous partnerships and sponsors who also believe that education changes lives. This show is brought to you by PsychArmor, the premier education and learning ecosystem, specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that's free to individual learners as well as custom training options for organizations.
On today's episode, I'm having a conversation with Meg O’Grady. Meg has more than 25 years of experience creating outreach, transition, education, entrepreneur, and employment programs that engage the military community, transitioning service members, employers, and federal agencies. She's the Senior Vice President for Military and Government Programs for the National University System, where she leads a team that helps service members, military spouses and government organizations reach important milestones in their education and careers. You can find out more about Meg by checking out her bio in our show notes. So let's get into my conversation with her and come back afterwards to talk about some of the key points.
DUANE: So Meg, I'm so glad to be able to share this time with you today. It may be opening a can of worms, asking you about all the work that you've done in the military and Veterans space. We can have a whole episode probably just on the work that you've done. But to start off with, it'd be great to hear a bit of your professional journey after the military and how you came to work with the national university system.
MEG: Wonderful. Well, you know, as many military spouses, I have a very broad resume. So, I was a military spouse for 22 years after I left the Army and we moved 17 times in 23 years. I stopped counting jobs. The first time I ever had only a single job was when I turned 44. I developed a passion for community very early.
I think, three of our duty stations were overseas. And so the challenges of finding employment and a career overseas is always a little bit harder for military spouses. And so for me, I think I've been incredibly fortunate to be able to contribute in many ways to this community of, military, families and Veterans, and those positions have been nonprofit positions and private sector, I've worked for fortune 500 companies.
And then I've also worked for the federal government, both as a federal contractor and as a federal government employee. So for me, the thread that goes through all of that is a passion for serving the community and then a passion for finding resources and helping them with education and employment.
I've worked for Army Medicine and I've worked for Army Family Advocacy. So a lot of my work has been with army quality of life programs because we were often at army installations. And so what I was able to do really quickly was understand that education was what I wanted to do.
I had to really narrow it down because I thought health education was the thing because my very first federal job was working at Fort Hood, and establishing a health promotion program and wellness center. And I thought I was gonna go to Johns Hopkins, but the army decided to send us to Germany again, so that wasn't gonna be an option.
And I had the opportunity to get a graduate degree in education. And as you know, the opportunities are what are in front of you. And so I just took a master's in education and curriculum and instruction because that's what was available to me. And through that, I was able to start working for the Army's Career and Alumni Program doing career counseling and separation counseling for the soldiers who were coming back from Iraq in 2006. And if listeners remember that was really when there was, a surge and then stop loss. So we kept all of our soldiers into the army and all of a sudden we had thousands who had to separate from the army in 90 days.
And so it was quite an education just to be able to contribute to that effort. But that's what really got my attention about career training, workforce development, and figuring out what resources were available. And then from there, I was able to go to the Military One Source Program and as a military spouse, it's interesting because we often say we're underemployed, but here's not a lot of statistics to show, how are you underemployed so I applied to be a career counselor with the Military One Source Program and they called back and said, you have all this leadership experience. Do you wanna run the program? and I said, sure. So that was my first kind of foray into being an executive.
So I always say that I'm the accidental executive. I never really had a goal except to serve the community. And from there I went to the Department of Defense and I was able to help launch the Spouse Education and Career Opportunities Program and the Military Spouse Employment Partnership, which now has more than 360 employer partners.
And they've hired more than 112,000 military spouses. So if you asked me what my proudest moment was, I would say that's probably it. From there, I went back to corporate America to help build Veteran entrepreneur programs. And I decided, corporate America is great, but it just didn't feel the same as serving my community directly, where I was either, with the federal government or with a nonprofit program.
So I went to Kaplan University, which transitioned into Purdue Global University and helped build and run their military programs. And that was really where I got into the higher education space. I loved doing that work and we were able to serve and build a lot of programs there. But I also felt the call to go back to the federal government when COVID hit.
And so I came back to the Department of Labor and helped with the Veteran employment and training service where I was the national employment manager. I was very happy there, but we had gone from 14% unemployment in the COVID times, I guess the pandemic to 2.2% and I thought, okay, there's somewhere else I need to go now. We've solved the problem, but certainly I think I've contributed and it's time to go. And National University reached out to me in the spring this past spring, and they said, look, we're going through this transformation. We are a Veteran founded university. We're looking for someone to help us. Not only grow our military population of students, but really look at us from the standpoint of we want to be a Veteran ready organization. And how can we do that? And of course, with my experience in, serving on the board of PsychArmor, I said, I know just the partner to bring with me as we go.
I'm very happy. I'm just 90 days in right now. The university has gone through an incredible transformation. 30% of our students are military affiliated in some way. And, I'm excited to share with you some of the initiatives that we have and why I think they're important around higher education in the service member, Veteran and military family space.
DUANE: It definitely sounds and if the thread, and correct me if I'm wrong,the thread that seems to come through this is if there's a sticky problem. That's where you wanna be. If you are supporting, his stop loss Veterans, I had a number of them and they didn't just come out in the thousands.
A lot of 'em came out with a chip on their shoulder, but that was the first time and probably 15, 20 years that you had combat Veterans transitioning back to nonmilitary life. Then, in, in really the height of the military spouse challenges, under employment, things like that. And high unemployment, you find yourself in the DOL and then now during a transformation, you always seem to find
MEG: Yes. I think that when I was working at the Department of Fefense, I had to really going around and representing the programs. And I would participate in interviews and panels and things like that. And people kept asking me, well, how did you get to be a GS 15? If you were a military spouse like, how did you do it?
And I really didn't have any answers. I mean, my answers were, I just took the opportunities where they were, and I think, I served well or whatever that was. And so I really had to think about it. That's kind of where I came up with that accidental executive stick. But I do believe that when I look at what is my superpower, my superpower is I love to come into organizations and look at different parts of the organizations that may not yet be connected, connect them internally, also partner with other organizations who can help support that and then institutionalize it, measure it and then usually by that, It's time to find the next sticky problem. Yeah, I love that. I love the sticky problem. I really don't like to be anywhere where there aren't big challenges. I think those are fun to attack and it's really fun to see an organization grow from that.
DUANE: And I think the opportunity, as you'd mentioned about higher education for service members, Veterans, and their family's important issue, for a number of reasons, you mentioned the socioeconomic improvement of service members' lives, right? Moving on after the military, development of festival skills. It's a benefit that's a direct result of the military service. Why do you think it's important to continue to ensure that higher education supports military affiliated student?
MEG: Well, I think that's a great question. And I think there's a complex answer. There are issues of national security and that is that, many of our service members are joining the military because they want to get an education. Certainly, when I went to West Point, I didn't really know what the army was but I knew that even though I was a swimmer and I was getting scholarships. I was going to have my education funded, whether I could get in the pool or I couldn't. And I knew I could serve in some way. And so, I think a lot of our service members who come into the service are just like me, how can I find an education? And so I think in order to maintain our recruiting, which is really a challenge right now. I think we have to show that we're putting our resources behind our service members, that we're not only giving them an opportunity to learn a skill, a trade or something technical, but we're creating a lifelong learner that can transition out and use that experience.
And so part of what we've done at National University is we're really trying to reach service members early so that they can look at the education they're going to receive through the military, the education and training. And we can look at how can we apply that so that by the time they're either at their first enlistment end or going to be promoted into the NCO ranks or the further ranks as they go through, if they've decided to stay in, they have something of value that they can apply to college credit. I think that's really important that piece of it, but I also think that we are investing so much as a country into these incredible training programs and we're taking some of the smartest and best folks in the country.
We're competing against other organizations who want to recruit those same folks. And so I think that we have to be able to give them value back so that when they decide to transition and everyone transitions, whether it's at four years or 30 years, that they're able to continue their service as a civic asset in their communities, wherever they go.
The other thing that I would say is that it's interesting when we look at folks who say, I don't wanna do what I'm doing in the military outside. Once I get out of the military, I don't wanna be an MP or I don't wanna be a truck driver. However, if we can start to show what those career paths look like, maybe you don't wanna be a truck driver, but maybe you love transportation.
Would you like to be an executive? Or would you like to do HR and transportation? Cuz that's maybe what drew you here? Maybe you don't want to be an MP, but do you wanna do forensic science or something like that? So I think it's really important that we identify early and, the Department of Defense is doing a much, much better job these days, than they had, much earlier in that time that we were just talking about in the early two thousands, in helping to identify that everyone will transition and how can we access that education? But I think the most important piece of it is that we are able to take the education and experience that these folks have put their blood, sweat, and tears into and give them value for it so that they can continue to serve in their communities as they transition back.
DUANE: I think that's absolutely critical. As you mentioned, when I joined in the mid nineties, this was after the goal four, so there really wasn't conflict or anything and, it was to go to school. So I thought,and then I tried it for a semester and tanked horribly, which again is, what you alluded to is, college, isn't the right thing for everyone at the the time, like when they get outta high school. I was 15 years in the army before I decided quote unquote what I wanted to be when I grew up. And then I was able to access higher education. But then that comes with, I was in my mid thirties and, never take a 400 level bio psychology course while leading patrols in Afghanistan, just life lesson.
But there's a lot more complicated things when it comes to sort of the adult learners, nontraditional learners that a lot of military and Veterans, even the young men and women that left in 2006, 2007, they weren't typical college students that people think of.
MEG: Right. Absolutely. And part of what really drew me to National University was this transformation that they have just gone through. We're a Veteran founded university. we are founded 50 years ago by a Navy captain who worked at general dynamics. He had been retired and he had service members who were either coming out of Vietnam or were going to have to go to Vietnam within like a 30 day period.
But they were maybe in the middle of their college or they wanted to start college before they left. And so he created this model where they were able to take four week courses on a rolling basis. So when you think about it, that's kind of innovative for the early seventies and he created a model for what distance education is.
But the thing that drew me to national is with our 30% of students who are military affiliated, we look at them and they look like the rest of our student body. We have non-traditional adult students, 95% of our student are not first time nor full time students. And many of them bring lots of credits with them.
So they've gone to several institutions and they still haven't been able to complete a degree. And part of the reasons that they can't complete a degree is they may not have the support that they need to your point that, they may not have been in school for quite a while. They may have issues where they're deployed or they're a single parent or they not only have their military job, but they might have another job or a Veteran who is transitioning out for the first time. And not only trying to transition the occupation, but really transition his or her entire life out of the military. So we have what we call the whole human education and there's five pillars of that.
Obviously academic that's, something that's very important and then career, because we wanna ensure that whatever education,we are able to provide really does translate not only just to a job, but to a career that can last a lifetime and enhance quality of life. And then what I think is very important are the other three pillars where we provide support and resources virtually for all of our students.
And, the third pillar is social and wellness. And so we're looking at how can we create connection and ensure that we have healthy students and that they have access to not only medical resources, but mental health resources, not only for them, but for their families. We have the family and community, which is very important.
We wanna ensure that our students are connected, not only within their own nuclear families, but that they are connected to the student body and that the organization and our university values what they bring to the table. And we know that Veterans and military spouses and service members bring a lot of diversity to the table and they bring a worldview that makes 'em very valuable in a classroom.
Certainly if you're doing group discussions or group projects and things like that, I think that's very important. And then we have the financial pillar and, the financial pillar isn’t just about how do I finance my education? Because we know that military benefits are great for education. A lot of our students are able to have the education piece funded, but there are so many other financial challenges that come with serving in the military and transitioning back to a community after the military.
So we wanna make sure that they have access, to those pieces virtually. And what we're building we hope is a system kind of an ecosystem of virtual support that can be accessed on demand 24/7 in all of those different places. And I'm very excited about that and I'm excited to look at all of the ways that I can bring partners to the table for National University, given the experience that I've had over the last 30 years.
DUNAE: I think that concept of and you really broke it up in two buckets. Obviously when people think about higher education, of course it's the academics, right? That's really, what if there's a pie that's 99% of the pie or not 90% of the pie. Maybe they'll help you with some internships that could possibly lead to career, but it is all about academics.
And not to say that a academics aren't transformational, but it really is transactional. But then I think back on the professors and the faculty that I really still to this day, fully engage with. They're concerned with those other three parts of me and were really, connected, concerned with me as an individual, my social and me coming out of the military while I was in my master's program.
The professors that were just there to, to sort of turn in your paper and gimme a grade, they're forgettable. The ones that were really invested in me as an individual and mentors I had at the time that were invested me as an individual.
MEG: Yes, absolutely. And I, I think that is one of the greatest benefits of being not only just in the military, but in a military community is that we're used to having, as unpredictable as the military is, there's a path that you take. And everybody knows what that path looks like. And we can lay out objectives with our mentors or with our leaders.
And when you come out into kind of the civilian world, there's a lot to navigate there. And often there's not really what looks like a clear path for us. And so for us, it's we want to be available and proactive in helping define that path for our students, whatever that may be.
DUANE: No, I think that's great. and really, like you said, it, it could probably be a model for other universities to be able to do this as well because, we know that the global on terror having just ended, we're still supporting those service members and Veterans. And not just that, but my children are also attending, college right now.
And they're part of a military family. They're separated from their family of their origin. I think that really this, the idea of military affiliated non-traditional students is significant. So this has been great. If people wanted to find out more about the National University System, how can they do that?
MEG: They can find https://www.nusystem.org/ and we have several social sites and, because of our community focus, our hashtag is #NUFAM. So hashtag #NUFAM and, I'm so pleased to have joined NU FAM. And I'm looking forward to having PsychArmor as a partner with us to help create that competence, cultural competence around the great things that our military can contribute to the university.
DUANE: Absolutely. We look forward to that. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
MEG: Thank you. I really enjoyed it.
Once again, we would like to thank this week’s sponsor, PsychArmor. PsychArmor is the premier education and learning ecosystem specializing in military culture content. PsychArmor offers an online e-learning laboratory that is free individual learners, as well as custom trading options for organizations.
I'm so glad that we were able to highlight Meg's current efforts to support military affiliated students, as well as her long standing service to support those who served and those who care for them. As you heard her experiences have been many and varied, but as we talked about in our conversation, the theme is, where there is a need and she has a skill she's able to apply that skill to the need.
And that's typical for Veterans and military spouses who see the world in a different way than those who haven't been associated with the military. It's not the brag. It's simply the fact the same way that someone who grew up in one culture sees the world differently than someone who grew up in a different culture. Or how one's demographic identity, race, ethnicity, gender, gender expression, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, gives them a unique and beneficial point. I find that Veterans and military spouses are problem solvers, perhaps that comes with the experience in the military of needing to solve complex problems with limited resources, unreliable, or disconnected information in severely limited time constraints.
I find that many Veterans have that superpower, that Meg has the ability to see disconnected aspects of a particular problem and connect them to close gaps in increase resources. That could be why Veterans are such good entrepreneurs. They see possibilities where others may It's not that they think outside the box, so to speak is that they see the box differently.
We had to, especially in the military, when a mission had to get done, it had to get done. I used to have a mentor and a friend who would say that the mission had to get done by any means necessary. And I used to annoy him by adding yes, by any legal, moral and ethical means necessary.
But that's what service members did and that power does not go away once we leave the military, it simply gets applied to different problems. Veterans and military spouses are integrators. We're the ones who see the person with the chocolate and the other person with the peanut butter and introduce the two of them to create a really great third thing that's a mix of the two. So it was great to highlight how Meg has found success in doing so throughout her career.
The other point that I would like to make is something that Meg said towards the end of our conversation, about how one difference between being in the military, in someone's post-military life is how structured life is in the military and how seemingly unstructured post-military life is. She was referring to advancement. Talking about how the path is laid out for us and how things are much more unclear after the military. I've described this before to be like, Veterans and military spouses are like lions raised in captivity who are then released into the wild. Even in a zoo lions and lionesses are awesome and mighty creatures, fearsome and wonderful to a whole.
But they're also limited by their enclosure. There are regular feeding times and life has constrained and contrived in some. Once they leave captivity, the support structure is gone. The skills that they have developed to survive in captivity, doesn't always translate to life in the wild, when unfamiliar situations present themselves. It's the same way things are in post-military life. Meg didn't say that no past exist in post-military life, but the paths that are, there are so numerous and so poorly marked that it's not clear which direction we should go. In my 22 year career, I had an extremely rich and varied experience when it came to assignments, duty positions and leadership opportunities. But I remained in one lane of one highway, the enlisted ranks of my career field I could've gone to the other lane. The officer ranks in my career field, or I could've gone on to other highways, other career fields. It wasn't easy, but it was possible. And my post-military life, however, there are no highways and no lanes on the highway.
And without those markers to guide us, some Veterans are easily overwhelmed and could benefit from someone helping them navigate that confusing situation. So I know I'm mixing metaphors all over the place here from lions to highways to problem solving integrators. I enjoy these conversations with our guests so much that they start my wheels turning and you're hearing a bit of that today. And hopefully these conversations do the same for you. If it does let us know, pop a review in your podcast player of choice, or send us an email at info@psycharmor.org. We would appreciate knowing that you're listening, what you think and what you would like to hear about in future episodes.
For this week’s PsychArmor resource of the week, I'd like to share the link to the PsychArmor course, Advising Military Students on Higher Education. In this course, you'll take a brief look at higher education and transition formation for military students and be able to help them understand their higher education options. You can find a link to the resource in our show notes.