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The Question is a collaborative learning podcast about Design Systems. Smart people like you sign up, answer a few niche questions about design systems for each episode, and then we all get together to unpack the data we've gathered. Each week, I'll invite a new co-host to help facilitate the conversation. After the deep dive, the co-host and I record a recap of what we learned. That means, for each episode, you can listen to the recap and the full deep dive!
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Ben Callahan (00:02)
Hello, system thinkers. I'm your host, Ben Callahan, founder of Sparkbox and Redwood's Design System Community. I want to welcome you to Episode 070 of The Question, where my co-host Hannah Clarke and I facilitate a deep dive on the topic of lasting design systems infrastructure. If you have a moment, please get subscribed to the show out bencallahan.com/thequestion
This episode is made possible by Mintlify. If your design system documentation lives in five places and satisfies no one, Mintlify can provide one beautiful AI-powered home for everything your team builds and the why behind those decisions. Try it free at bit.ly/try-mintlify and use the code MINT-THEQ for 50% off their pro plan for six months. Thanks for being here. Let's get into it.
ep070 faces raw (00:58)
Hannah, are you ready? Let's do it. OK. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the system space.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (00:58)
Hannah, are you ready? Let's do it. OK. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the system space.
ep070 screen raw (00:58)
Hannah, are you ready? Let's do it. OK. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the system space.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (01:07)
Yeah, so I am a UI engineer at a company called NTAP. I've been working there for the past, well, nearly two years now, which is my first dedicated role in design systems. Before that, I was in a team that was sort of taking on design system as a responsibility, but it wasn't necessarily our main focus. And originally I was sort of working in full stack and kind of gravitated towards front end.
ep070 faces raw (01:07)
Yeah, so I am a UI engineer at a company called NTAP. I've been working there for the past, well, nearly two years now, which is my first dedicated role in design systems. Before that, I was in a team that was sort of taking on design system as a responsibility, but it wasn't necessarily our main focus. And originally I was sort of working in full stack and kind of gravitated towards front end.
ep070 screen raw (01:07)
Yeah, so I am a UI engineer at a company called NTAP. I've been working there for the past, well, nearly two years now, which is my first dedicated role in design systems. Before that, I was in a team that was sort of taking on design system as a responsibility, but it wasn't necessarily our main focus. And originally I was sort of working in full stack and kind of gravitated towards front end.
made a lot of friends with designers and kind of got into the space, ⁓ kind of organically, I suppose, just by learning more about front end and talking to the right people and working in places where there was kind of an idea of a design system, but then it was always kind of relying on goodwill rather than having dedicated people who were sort of, it was their primary focus. So yeah, I kind of
Ben Callahan (zoom) (01:36)
made a lot of friends with designers and kind of got into the space, ⁓ kind of organically, I suppose, just by learning more about front end and talking to the right people and working in places where there was kind of an idea of a design system, but then it was always kind of relying on goodwill rather than having dedicated people who were sort of, it was their primary focus. So yeah, I kind of...
ep070 faces raw (01:36)
made a lot of friends with designers and kind of got into the space, ⁓ kind of organically, I suppose, just by learning more about front end and talking to the right people and working in places where there was kind of an idea of a design system, but then it was always kind of relying on goodwill rather than having dedicated people who were sort of, it was their primary focus. So yeah, I kind of...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (02:03)
got to the point where I really wanted to be doing that as my main role, which is where I've been for nearly the past two years now. So yeah, and before that, I didn't work in software at all. I worked at a university doing widening access projects. So yeah, I've got quite a mixed background in terms of experience, but yeah, this is what I love these days. So very happy to be just working design system stuff day to day.
ep070 faces raw (02:03)
got to the point where I really wanted to be doing that as my main role, which is where I've been for nearly the past two years now. So yeah, and before that, I didn't work in software at all. I worked at a university doing widening access projects. So yeah, I've got quite a mixed background in terms of experience, but yeah, this is what I love these days. So very happy to be just working design system stuff day to day.
ep070 screen raw (02:03)
got to the point where I really wanted to be doing that as my main role, which is where I've been for nearly the past two years now. So yeah, and before that, I didn't work in software at all. I worked at a university doing widening access projects. So yeah, I've got quite a mixed background in terms of experience, but yeah, this is what I love these days. So very happy to be just working design system stuff day to day.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (02:32)
Yeah, awesome. And welcome. Thank you for it. It takes a lot of time from our co-hosts to do this, y'all, just so you know, like we have to meet the week before and we develop a topic and questions and they're helping me edit all of that context down. And so I really just want to make sure we say thanks to those folks who do this and Hannah, I appreciate your time over the last week. And I know that even today we've got lots left to do. So ⁓ my name is Ben. I'm your host for today. And I just want to say thanks for being here.
ep070 faces raw (02:32)
Yeah, awesome. And welcome. Thank you for it. It takes a lot of time from our co-hosts to do this, y'all, just so you know, like we have to meet the week before and we develop a topic and questions and they're helping me edit all of that context down. And so I really just want to make sure we say thanks to those folks who do this and Hannah, I appreciate your time over the last week. And I know that even today we've got lots left to do. So ⁓ my name is Ben. I'm your host for today. And I just want to say thanks for being here.
ep070 screen raw (02:32)
Yeah, awesome. And welcome. Thank you for it. It takes a lot of time from our co-hosts to do this, y'all, just so you know, like we have to meet the week before and we develop a topic and questions and they're helping me edit all of that context down. And so I really just want to make sure we say thanks to those folks who do this and Hannah, I appreciate your time over the last week. And I know that even today we've got lots left to do. So ⁓ my name is Ben. I'm your host for today. And I just want to say thanks for being here.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (03:00)
I'm one of the founders of a company called Sparkbox. We're a digital design and development studio and we do a lot of large scale systems work. I also founded a community called Redwoods. A lot of the folks here are a part of that community. ⁓ I've got a book coming out later this year with Smashing and I do a lot of other stuff, coaching and speaking and that sort of thing. So would love to connect with you. And I'm sure that Hannah would as well. So you can get both of our LinkedIn's here.
ep070 faces raw (03:00)
I'm one of the founders of a company called Sparkbox. We're a digital design and development studio and we do a of large scale systems work. I also founded a community called Redwoods. A lot of the folks here are a part of that community. ⁓ I've got a book coming out later this year with Smashing and I do a lot of other stuff, coaching and speaking and that sort of thing. So would love to connect with you. And I'm sure that Hannah would as well. So you can get both of our LinkedIn's here.
ep070 screen raw (03:00)
I'm one of the founders of a company called Sparkbox. We're a digital design and development studio and we do a of large scale systems work. I also founded a community called Redwoods. A lot of the folks here are a part of that community. ⁓ I've got a book coming out later this year with Smashing and I do a lot of other stuff, coaching and speaking and that sort of thing. So would love to connect with you. And I'm sure that Hannah would as well. So you can get both of our LinkedIn's here.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (03:25)
please make sure you reach out and connect if you haven't yet. We wanna stay connected to folks in the community. So this week, we asked you four questions. The first was, which of these statements best describes your company? Is it led by engineering, led by product, led by design, or led by a balance of those three? And then we gave you the option to give us another scenario if that's the case for you. And then we asked on your design system team, which roles have at least one dedicated person?
ep070 faces raw (03:25)
please make sure you reach out and connect if you haven't yet. We wanna stay connected to folks in the community. So this week, we asked you four questions. The first was, which of these statements best describes your company? Is it led by engineering, led by product, led by design, or led by a balance of those three? And then we gave you the option to give us another scenario if that's the case for you. And then we asked on your design system team, which roles have at least one dedicated person?
ep070 screen raw (03:25)
please make sure you reach out and connect if you haven't yet. We wanna stay connected to folks in the community. So this week, we asked you four questions. The first was, which of these statements best describes your company? Is it led by engineering, led by product, led by design, or led by a balance of those three? And then we gave you the option to give us another scenario if that's the case for you. And then we asked on your design system team, which roles have at least one dedicated person?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (03:54)
DevOps, design ops, UI design, front end dev or NA. And then we asked who has responsibility over the delivery of your coded components and gave you just an open text to answer. And then we asked, what do you believe are the most important actions a design system team can take to create a system that lasts? And again, that was an open text answer.
ep070 faces raw (03:54)
DevOps, design ops, UI design, front end dev or NA. And then we asked who has responsibility over the delivery of your coded components and gave you just an open text to answer. And then we asked, what do you believe are the most important actions a design system team can take to create a system that lasts? And again, that was an open text answer.
ep070 screen raw (03:54)
DevOps, design ops, UI design, front end dev or NA. And then we asked who has responsibility over the delivery of your coded components and gave you just an open text to answer. And then we asked, what do you believe are the most important actions a design system team can take to create a system that lasts? And again, that was an open text answer.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (04:15)
We sent this out to 1,061 design system practitioners. We got 45 responses. And as always, you can click this link to see the raw data for yourself. Please take a look at that. There's so many great answers, as always. ⁓ OK. So let's talk a little bit about these first two questions that were a little bit more quantitative in nature. ⁓
ep070 faces raw (04:15)
We sent this out to 1,061 design system practitioners. We got 45 responses. And as always, you can click this link to see the raw data for yourself. Please take a look at that. There's so many great answers, as always. ⁓ OK. So let's talk a little bit about these first two questions that were a little bit more quantitative in nature. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (04:15)
We sent this out to 1,061 design system practitioners. We got 45 responses. And as always, you can click this link to see the raw data for yourself. Please take a look at that. There's so many great answers, as always. ⁓ OK. So let's talk a little bit about these first two questions that were a little bit more quantitative in nature. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (04:39)
I put in the notes next to both of these, just put this idea that these were not the answers I was expecting. I think a lot of times we kind of come to these thinking, yeah, we're going to kind of see that bell curve or whatever. This was different for me. I think I was expecting a lot more organizations that are led by engineering. And we saw a huge amount, almost, it was like 40%, I think. Yeah, 40 % by product. So Hannah, don't know, what were you expecting here?
ep070 faces raw (04:39)
I put in the notes next to both of these, just put this idea that these were not the answers I was expecting. I think a lot of times we kind of come to these thinking, yeah, we're going to kind of see that bell curve or whatever. This was different for me. I think I was expecting a lot more organizations that are led by engineering. And we saw a huge amount, almost, it was like 40%, I think. Yeah, 40 % by product. So Hannah, don't know, what were you expecting here?
ep070 screen raw (04:39)
I put in the notes next to both of these, just put this idea that these were not the answers I was expecting. I think a lot of times we kind of come to these thinking, yeah, we're going to kind of see that bell curve or whatever. This was different for me. I think I was expecting a lot more organizations that are led by engineering. And we saw a huge amount, almost, it was like 40%, I think. Yeah, 40 % by product. So Hannah, don't know, what were you expecting here?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (05:08)
I don't think I was probably as surprised as you were about that. think, I think a lot of companies tend to sort of, they like to think, or they like to say that they're led by engineering, but realistically, engineering teams are often pointed in direction of what product wants next. ⁓ I've definitely worked in teams before where, you know, as a, as a group of engineers, we've been going down one avenue, trying to build something that
ep070 faces raw (05:08)
I don't think I was probably as surprised as you were about that. think, I think a lot of companies tend to sort of, they like to think, or they like to say that they're led by engineering, but realistically, engineering teams are often pointed in direction of what product wants next. ⁓ I've definitely worked in teams before where, you know, as a, as a group of engineers, we've been going down one avenue, trying to build something that
ep070 screen raw (05:08)
I don't think I was probably as surprised as you were about that. think, I think a lot of companies tend to sort of, they like to think, or they like to say that they're led by engineering, but realistically, engineering teams are often pointed in direction of what product wants next. ⁓ I've definitely worked in teams before where, you know, as a, as a group of engineers, we've been going down one avenue, trying to build something that
Ben Callahan (zoom) (05:37)
we think is going to fix some problems for users when product turn around and say, well, actually, no, we want to pivot onto this completely different thing. So just abandon everything that you've done. ⁓ So I don't think it's too surprising. think there's often kind of a lot of input, whether that's research led or not, or it's just kind of on the whim of someone who says, ⁓ we think this thing would be cool. Let's add that in. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. think
ep070 faces raw (05:37)
we think is going to fix some problems for users when product turn around and say, well, actually, no, we want to pivot onto this completely different thing. So just abandon everything that you've done. ⁓ So I don't think it's too surprising. think there's often kind of a lot of input, whether that's research led or not, or it's just kind of on the whim of someone who says, ⁓ we think this thing would be cool. Let's add that in. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. think
ep070 screen raw (05:37)
we think is going to fix some problems for users when product turn around and say, well, actually, no, we want to pivot onto this completely different thing. So just abandon everything that you've done. ⁓ So I don't think it's too surprising. think there's often kind of a lot of input, whether that's research led or not, or it's just kind of on the whim of someone who says, ⁓ we think this thing would be cool. Let's add that in. ⁓ Yeah, I don't know. think
Ben Callahan (zoom) (06:06)
I mean, I think obviously the best thing is to have a balance and it's good to see that that was quite high as a response. I think you can't really make the right decisions if you're not having conversations across the board. Yeah, I would agree with that. think it's interesting. A lot of the consulting work that I do, it's usually an organization that's led by engineering. That's what I tend to find.
ep070 faces raw (06:06)
I mean, I think obviously the best thing is to have a balance and it's good to see that that was quite high as a response. I think you can't really make the right decisions if you're not having conversations across the board. Yeah, I would agree with that. think it's interesting. A lot of the consulting work that I do, it's usually an organization that's led by engineering. That's what I tend to find.
ep070 screen raw (06:06)
I mean, I think obviously the best thing is to have a balance and it's good to see that that was quite high as a response. I think you can't really make the right decisions if you're not having conversations across the board. Yeah, I would agree with that. think it's interesting. A lot of the consulting work that I do, it's usually an organization that's led by engineering. That's what I tend to find.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (06:31)
And perhaps those are the organizations that hire consultants like me. So maybe that makes sense. Awesome. So thanks for answering that one, folks. The second more quantitative question was around the roles that you have dedicated. And we weren't asking about all the possible roles, but ones that we thought might have more of a say in delivering components in the way that we've asked about. of course,
ep070 faces raw (06:31)
And perhaps those are the organizations that hire consultants like me. So maybe that makes sense. Awesome. So thanks for answering that one, folks. The second more quantitative question was around the roles that you have dedicated. And we weren't asking about all the possible roles, but ones that we thought might have more of a say in delivering components in the way that we've asked about. of course,
ep070 screen raw (06:31)
And perhaps those are the organizations that hire consultants like me. So maybe that makes sense. Awesome. So thanks for answering that one, folks. ⁓ The second more quantitative question was around the roles that you have dedicated. And we weren't asking about all the possible roles, but ones that we thought might have more of a say in delivering components in the way that we've asked about. of course,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (06:57)
a significant number of folks with this super high front end dev. That I think was surprised us both, think, Hannah, do you agree? Yeah, I was very surprised. mean, particularly that that's higher than UI design. That really surprised me. I would have definitely thought it was more likely that you would have designers than front end developers. I'm reminded of Sean, you're, I know I see you there. Can you drop a link to that post you wrote recently about ⁓
ep070 faces raw (06:57)
a significant number of folks with this super high front end dev. That I think was surprised us both, think, Hannah, do you agree? Yeah, I was very surprised. mean, particularly that that's higher than UI design. That really surprised me. I would have definitely thought it was more likely that you would have designers than front end developers. I'm reminded of Sean, you're, I know I see you there. Can you drop a link to that post you wrote recently about ⁓
ep070 screen raw (06:57)
a significant number of folks with this super high front end dev. That I think was surprised us both, think, Hannah, do you agree? Yeah, I was very surprised. mean, particularly that that's higher than UI design. That really surprised me. I would have definitely thought it was more likely that you would have designers than front end developers. I'm reminded of Sean, you're, I know I see you there. Can you drop a link to that post you wrote recently about ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (07:26)
how there's too many designers, think is maybe what you said. What was that? Yes. Yeah. Is there too much design in design systems? That's right. Yeah. Just a trend that I'd spotted in open roles that were being advertised, they tend to always lean more towards design and there didn't seem to be as many sort of engineering focus roles. So just did a little bit research on that and then put some hypotheses of why that
ep070 faces raw (07:26)
how there's too many designers, think is maybe what you said. What was that? Yes. Yeah. Is there too much design in design systems? That's right. Yeah. Just a trend that I'd spotted in open roles that were being advertised, they tend to always lean more towards design and there didn't seem to be as many sort of engineering focus roles. So just did a little bit research on that and then put some hypotheses of why that
ep070 screen raw (07:26)
how there's too many designers, think is maybe what you said. What was that? Yes. Yeah. Is there too much design in design systems? That's right. Yeah. Just a trend that I'd spotted in open roles that were being advertised, they tend to always lean more towards design and there didn't seem to be as many sort of engineering focus roles. So just did a little bit research on that and then put some hypotheses of why that
Ben Callahan (zoom) (07:53)
I'll dig out a link now. would be great. And I know others in Redwoods had some different thoughts on that too. So Guy, I don't know if you wrote a post in response to that or not, but if you did, please drop it. Would love to see that. ⁓ Yeah. Awesome. So ⁓ other thoughts, you know, there were lots of answers in the other section for both of these. So I tried to kind of summarize those for us here. know, a lot of folks, think there's, there were, there's a handful of people who are,
ep070 faces raw (07:53)
I'll dig out a link now. That would be great. And I know others in Redwoods had some different thoughts on that too. So Guy, I don't know if you wrote a post in response to that or not, but if you did, please drop it. Would love to see that. ⁓ Yeah. Awesome. So ⁓ other thoughts, you know, there were lots of answers in the other section for both of these. So I tried to kind of summarize those for us here. know, a lot of folks, think there's, there were, there's a handful of people who are,
ep070 screen raw (07:53)
I'll dig out a link now. That would be great. And I know others in Redwoods had some different thoughts on that too. So Guy, I don't know if you wrote a post in response to that or not, but if you did, please drop it. Would love to see that. ⁓ Yeah. Awesome. So ⁓ other thoughts, you know, there were lots of answers in the other section for both of these. So I tried to kind of summarize those for us here. know, a lot of folks, think there's, there were, there's a handful of people who are,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (08:22)
commonly answering the question who have, you they're on smaller teams, know, nobody's dedicated, things like that. And so we're seeing a lot of those in the answers as well. So appreciate everybody here coming and supporting the question in this way. ⁓ Where do you want to go from here? And we've got a lot of data we gathered. ⁓ You know, there's lots of interesting things. Just before the call, you mentioned this idea of community that you had seen here. ⁓ Do you want to start there?
ep070 faces raw (08:22)
commonly answering the question who have, you they're on smaller teams, know, nobody's dedicated, things like that. And so we're seeing a lot of those in the answers as well. So appreciate everybody here coming and supporting the question in this way. ⁓ Where do you want to go from here? And we've got a lot of data we gathered. ⁓ You know, there's lots of interesting things. Just before the call, you mentioned this idea of community that you had seen here. ⁓ Do you want to start there?
ep070 screen raw (08:22)
commonly answering the question who have, you they're on smaller teams, know, nobody's dedicated, things like that. And so we're seeing a lot of those in the answers as well. So appreciate everybody here coming and supporting the question in this way. ⁓ Where do you want to go from here? And we've got a lot of data we gathered. ⁓ You know, there's lots of interesting things. Just before the call, you mentioned this idea of community that you had seen here. ⁓ Do you want to start there?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (08:52)
Yeah, I mean, I ⁓ think one of the things that came up, I think particularly with looking at teams that don't necessarily have dedicated people in them and then different configurations, whether you've got developers or you've got designers or you don't have anyone, I think it's all, it's great talking about things like tooling and infrastructure and how you build all of that. But like ultimately,
ep070 faces raw (08:52)
Yeah, I I ⁓ think one of the things that came up, I think particularly with looking at teams that don't necessarily have dedicated people in them and then different configurations, whether you've got developers or you've got designers or you don't have anyone, I think it's all, it's great talking about things like tooling and infrastructure and how you build all of that. But like ultimately,
ep070 screen raw (08:52)
Yeah, I mean, I ⁓ think one of the things that came up, I think particularly with looking at teams that don't necessarily have dedicated people in them and then different configurations, whether you've got developers or you've got designers or you don't have anyone, I think it's all, it's great talking about things like tooling and infrastructure and how you build all of that. But like ultimately,
ep070 faces raw (09:21)
you know, if, people don't know what it is you're doing, don't understand what the design system is, you're not having those conversations, then there's kind of no point to any of those configurations really. So like trying to, like, how do you kind of build the infrastructure for that aspect of it, I suppose, which was a conversation that we were having in our retro just before this call was about like, how do we
Ben Callahan (zoom) (09:21)
You know, if, people don't know what it is you're doing, don't understand what the design system is, you're not having those conversations, then there's kind of no point to any of those configurations really. so like trying to, like, how do you kind of build the, the infrastructure for that aspect of it, I suppose. ⁓ which was a conversation that we were having, ⁓ in our retro just before this call, ⁓ was about like, how do we.
ep070 screen raw (09:21)
You know, if, people don't know what it is you're doing, don't understand what the design system is, you're not having those conversations, then there's kind of no point to any of those configurations really. so like trying to, like, how do you kind of build the, the infrastructure for that aspect of it, I suppose. ⁓ which was a conversation that we were having, ⁓ in our retro just before this call, ⁓ was about like, how do we.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (09:50)
How do we build awareness in a way that isn't necessarily just sort of, you know, sitting everybody down in front of ⁓ a PowerPoint and saying, this is the design system. This is what it will deliver. Like, how do you actually engage people in that so that they actually truly understand it and they then support it and root for it and want to be part of the community around it? ⁓ Yeah, I think that's a really, really interesting thing that came out of those answers. Yeah. What did you...
ep070 faces raw (09:50)
How do we build awareness in a way that isn't necessarily just sort of, you know, sitting everybody down in front of ⁓ a PowerPoint and saying, this is the design system. This is what it will deliver. Like, how do you actually engage people in that so that they actually truly understand it and they then support it and root for it and want to be part of the community around it? Yeah, I think that's a really, really interesting thing that came out of those answers. Yeah. What did you...
ep070 screen raw (09:50)
How do we build awareness in a way that isn't necessarily just sort of, you know, sitting everybody down in front of ⁓ a PowerPoint and saying, this is the design system. This is what it will deliver. Like, how do you actually engage people in that so that they actually truly understand it and they then support it and root for it and want to be part of the community around it? ⁓ Yeah, I think that's a really, really interesting thing that came out of those answers. Yeah. What did you...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (10:17)
in your in your retro or whatever conversation you were just having. Did you solve this problem or like what what have you landed on to help with that? We definitely didn't solve the problem. We came up with some really interesting ideas. Like a few of them were sort of one that I thought was really good was someone has suggested doing a showcase not from necessarily people in the design system team, but other designers and engineers who have been using the design system and them showcasing what they've been able to build.
ep070 screen raw (10:17)
in your retro or whatever conversation you were just having, did you solve this problem or what have you landed on to help with that? We definitely didn't solve the problem. We came up with some really interesting ideas. Like a few of them were sort of one that I thought was really good was someone had suggested doing a showcase, not from necessarily people in the design system team, but other designers and engineers who have been using the design system and them showcasing what they've been able to build.
ep070 faces raw (10:17)
in your retro or whatever conversation you were just having, did you solve this problem or like what have you landed on to help with that? We definitely didn't solve the problem. We came up with some really interesting ideas. Like a few of them were sort of one that I thought was really good was someone had suggested doing a showcase, not from necessarily people in the design system team, but other designers and engineers who have been using the design system and them showcasing what they've been able to build.
as a result of having that resource, which I thought was really cool because then it stops being about us just saying, look at this thing that we've done and trying to sort of thrust it on people, whether they're interested or not. And it actually says, look, this is, this is tangible. This is what someone's done as a result of having these resources available. So I thought that was a really kind of cool one. Yeah, that's great. This is the point of the conversation folks, where you can jump right in. So raise your hand in zoom, turn that camera on, say hello. We'll get you.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (10:46)
as a result of having that resource, which I thought was really cool because then it stops being about us just saying, look at this thing that we've done and trying to sort of thrust it on people, whether they're interested or not. And it actually says, look, this is, this is tangible. This is what someone's done as a result of having these resources available. So I thought that was a really kind of cool one. Yeah, that's great. This is the point of the conversation folks, where you can jump right in. So raise your hand in zoom, turn that camera on, say hello. We'll get you.
ep070 screen raw (10:46)
as a result of having that resource, which I thought was really cool because then it stops being about us just saying, look at this thing that we've done and trying to sort of thrust it on people, whether they're interested or not. And it actually says, look, this is, this is tangible. This is what someone's done as a result of having these resources available. So I thought that was a really kind of cool one. Yeah, that's great. This is the point of the conversation, folks, where you can jump right in. So raise your hand in zoom, turn that camera on, say hello. We'll get you.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (11:14)
We'll call on you and get you up into the conversation. Oh, amazing, Joshua, what's up? That just made me, I think you mentioned some things that we tried on the last one I was on. We had like a, if you have in-person, we have like a lab and it's actually combining what you just said, Hannah. So a team that actually did something really nice with our new kind of composable design system. And then you actually did a lab where the people come in person with their laptops.
ep070 screen raw (11:14)
We'll call on you and get you up into the conversation. Oh, amazing, Joshua, what's up? That just made me, I think you mentioned some things that we tried on the last one I was on. We had like a, if you have in-person, we have like a lab and it's actually combining what you just said, Hannah. So a team that actually did something really nice with our new kind of composable design system. And then you actually did a lab where the people come in person with their laptops.
ep070 faces raw (11:14)
We'll call on you and get you up into the conversation. ⁓ amazing, Joshua, what's up? That just made me, I mentioned some things that we tried on the last one I was on. We had like a, if you have in-person, we have like a lab and it's actually combining what you just said, Hannah. So a team that actually did something really nice with our new kind of composable design system. And then you actually did a lab where the people come in person with their laptops.
ep070 screen raw (11:43)
and rebuild what the people did that was kind of innovative with our design system. But then they could also do a little lab thing where they build something new. And I guess trying to, I think the thing we kind of learned from that is like any opportunities where people could not be like just doing work and doing something fun and like chatting and hanging out, but getting paid at work. Like it makes them a bit think the design system is like a funner part of their day job, you know?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (11:43)
and rebuild what the people did that was kind of innovative with our design system. But then they could also do a little lab thing where they build something new. And I guess trying to, I think the thing we kind of learned from that is like any opportunities where people could not be like just doing work and doing something fun and like chatting and hanging out, but getting paid at work. Like it makes them a bit think the design system is like a funner part of their day job, you know?
ep070 faces raw (11:43)
and rebuild what the people did that was kind of innovative with our design system. But then they could also do a little lab thing where they build something new. And I guess trying to, I think the thing we kind of learned from that is like any opportunities where people could not be like just doing work and doing something fun and like chatting and hanging out, but getting paid at work. Like it makes them a bit think the design system is like a funner part of their day job, you know?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (12:13)
I love that sort of carrot instead of stick approach to this. definitely. ⁓ Cool. Well, let's get into some of more technical side too. Hannah, tell us a little bit about how you are delivering components to your consuming teams. Yeah, I guess we kind of started in quite a good position ⁓ when the team was formed and we kind of had the...
ep070 faces raw (12:13)
I love that sort of carrot instead of stick approach to this. definitely. Cool. Well, let's get into some of the more technical side too. Hannah, tell us a little bit about how you are delivering components to your consuming teams. Yeah, I guess we kind of started in quite a good position ⁓ when the team was formed and we kind of had the...
ep070 screen raw (12:13)
I love that sort of carrot instead of stick approach to this. definitely. Cool. Well, let's get into some of more technical side too. Hannah, tell us a little bit about how you are delivering components to your consuming teams. Yeah, I guess we kind of started in quite a good position ⁓ when the team was formed and we kind of had the...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (12:39)
the basics in terms of the coded side of things, but that had been managed by a product team. So when I was hired and one of my colleagues was hired, we kind of could do what we wanted on the code side, which gave us a lot of freedom. So Amy tasked me with doing some research into how we could provide for our teams and not necessarily be stuck.
ep070 faces raw (12:39)
the basics in terms of the coded side of things, but that had been managed by a product team. So when I was hired and one of my colleagues was hired, we kind of could do what we wanted on the code side, which gave us a lot of freedom. So Amy tasked me with doing some research into how we could provide for our teams and not necessarily be stuck.
ep070 screen raw (12:39)
the basics in terms of the coded side of things, but that had been managed by a product team. So when I was hired and one of my colleagues was hired, we kind of could do what we wanted on the code side, which gave us a lot of freedom. So Amy tasked me with doing some research into how we could provide for our teams and not necessarily be stuck.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (13:07)
with just like one framework like React. So we got looking into web components. So now we basically write all of our components as stencil web components. We write them once. ⁓ And then using that, we then output them to different NPM packages. So our teams can kind of use whichever ones they need. So we have like, we have an NPM package for our tokens, one for our styles, and then we have our component ones as well. So we have like our web components package, which is now being used by our Angular developers, which is really cool.
ep070 faces raw (13:07)
with just like one framework like React. So we got looking into web components. So now we basically write all of our components as stencil web components. We write them once. ⁓ And then using that, we then output them to different NPM packages. So our teams can kind of use whichever ones they need. we have like, we have an NPM package for our tokens, one for our styles, and then we have our component ones as well. So we have like our web components package, which ⁓ is now being used by our Angular developers, which is really cool.
ep070 screen raw (13:07)
with just like one framework like React. So we got looking into web components. So now we basically write all of our components as stencil web components. We write them once. ⁓ And then using that, we then output them to different NPM packages. So our teams can kind of use whichever ones they need. we have like, we have an NPM package for our tokens, one for our styles, and then we have our component ones as well. So we have like our web components package, which ⁓ is now being used by our Angular developers, which is really cool.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (13:37)
They can just build a really simple wrapper and just throw those into their application, which is great. We have a React package for React 18. We've recently just added one for React 19 and SSR support as well. So because we're such a small team as well, it means that we don't have to keep writing all of these components over and over again in different frameworks. Don't have to keep maintaining them and having them always be out of sync. yeah, kind of, wanted to be able to...
ep070 faces raw (13:37)
They can just build a really simple wrapper and just throw those into their application, which is great. We have a React package for React 18. We've recently just added one for React 19 and SSR support as well. So because we're such a small team as well, it means that we don't have to keep writing all of these components over and over again in different frameworks. Don't have to keep maintaining them and having them always be out of sync. yeah, kind of, wanted to be able to...
ep070 screen raw (13:37)
They can just build a really simple wrapper and just throw those into their application, which is great. We have a React package for React 18. We've recently just added one for React 19 and SSR support as well. So because we're such a small team as well, it means that we don't have to keep writing all of these components over and over again in different frameworks. Don't have to keep maintaining them and having them always be out of sync. yeah, kind of, wanted to be able to...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (14:05)
make sure we could provide the resources our teams needed while also accepting the fact that as three UI engineers, we couldn't possibly write everything in every framework. So we've wanted to kind of make our lives easier at the same time as being able to still provide things. So that's kind of where we're at at the moment. Yeah, amazing. Let's hear folks how you all are handling this. And I actually want to move this little sticky note because we had three other statements that I...
ep070 faces raw (14:05)
make sure we could provide the resources our teams needed while also accepting the fact that as three UI engineers, we couldn't possibly write everything in every framework. So we've wanted to kind of make our lives easier at the same time as being able to still provide things. So that's kind of where we're at at the moment. Yeah, amazing. Let's hear folks how you all are handling this. And I actually want to move this little sticky note because we had three other statements that I...
ep070 screen raw (14:05)
make sure we could provide the resources our teams needed while also accepting the fact that as three UI engineers, we couldn't possibly write everything in every framework. So we've wanted to kind of make our lives easier at the same time as being able to still provide things. So that's kind of where we're at at the moment. Yeah, amazing. Let's hear folks how you all are handling this. And I actually want to move this little sticky note because we had three other statements that I...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (14:33)
that I identified, I'm sure there were probably others that I missed in the data that talked about this idea of, in response to that fourth question, which was about what are you doing to create sort of a more sustainable and long lasting approach, teams said things like, we're trying to make the system design system framework agnostic so it can survive those kinds of changes in the product layer. ⁓ So there were three folks that I saw immediately that,
ep070 faces raw (14:33)
that I identified, I'm sure there were probably others that I missed in the data that talked about this idea of, in response to that fourth question, which was about what are you doing to create sort of a more sustainable and long lasting approach, teams said things like, we're trying to make the system design system framework agnostic so it can survive those kinds of changes in the product layer. ⁓ So there were three folks that I saw immediately that,
ep070 screen raw (14:33)
that I identified, I'm sure there were probably others that I missed in the data that talked about this idea of, in response to that fourth question, which was about what are you doing to create sort of a more sustainable and long lasting approach, teams said things like, we're trying to make the system design system framework agnostic so it can survive those kinds of changes in the product layer. ⁓ So there were three folks that I saw immediately that,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (15:00)
that talked about that, Francie and Guy and Amy, who I think is your team, Mayhanna. So would love to hear that. Like, what are you doing in those other teams? What are you doing? The idea of a tool like Stencil that sort of wraps web components and allows you to use those in lots of frameworks is a great solution, but would love to hear how others are tackling that. And then ⁓ also, we didn't really get into this in this question, but I just was thinking about this idea of like,
ep070 faces raw (15:00)
that talked about that, Francie and Guy and Amy, who I think is your team, Mayhanna. So would love to hear that. Like, what are you doing in those other teams? What are you doing? The idea of a tool like Stencil that sort of wraps web components and allows you to use those in lots of frameworks is a great solution, but would love to hear how others are tackling that. And then ⁓ also, we didn't really get into this in this question, but I just was thinking about this idea of like,
ep070 screen raw (15:00)
that talked about that, Francie and Guy and Amy, who I think is your team, Mayhanna. So would love to hear that. Like, what are you doing in those other teams? What are you doing? The idea of a tool like Stencil that sort of wraps web components and allows you to use those in lots of frameworks is a great solution, but would love to hear how others are tackling that. And then ⁓ also, we didn't really get into this in this question, but I just was thinking about this idea of like,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (15:27)
I hear dev teams talking about this a lot, the idea of creating framework agnostic versions of components for engineers. But is that a thing we could be doing for design too? There are many different tools that you could be using for design. Could we possibly do the same ⁓ over there? So any thoughts that folks have on this? Jump right in, raise your hand, we'll get you into the combo.
ep070 faces raw (15:27)
I hear dev teams talking about this a lot, the idea of creating framework agnostic versions of components for engineers. But is that a thing we could be doing for design too? There are many different tools that you could be using for design. Could we possibly do the same ⁓ over there? So any thoughts that folks have on this, jump right in, raise your hand, we'll get you into the combo.
ep070 screen raw (15:27)
I hear dev teams talking about this a lot, the idea of creating framework agnostic versions of components for engineers. But is that a thing we could be doing for design too? There are many different tools that you could be using for design. Could we possibly do the same ⁓ over there? So any thoughts that folks have on this? Jump right in, raise your hand, we'll get you into the combo.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (15:53)
be shy folks. I'm really interested to know what people think about the design agnostic tools as well. That's fascinating to me. It feels like everybody's of beholden to Figma in a lot of ways and there's got to be other options surely. Yeah. And we've had ⁓ a few folks from Penpot on the show as well. And that's an interesting tool, open source that lets you do a lot of very similar things with kind of a different mindset.
ep070 faces raw (15:53)
be shy folks. I'm really interested to know what people think about the design agnostic tools as well. That's fascinating to me. It feels like everybody's of beholden to Figma in a lot of ways and there's got to be other options surely. Yeah. And we've had a few folks from Penpot on the show as well. And that's an interesting tool, open source that lets you do a lot of very similar things with kind of a different mindset.
ep070 screen raw (15:53)
be shy folks. I'm really interested to know what people think about the design agnostic tools as well. That's fascinating to me. It feels like everybody's of beholden to Figma in a lot of ways and there's got to be other options surely. Yeah. And we've had ⁓ a few folks from Penpot on the show as well. And that's an interesting tool, open source that lets you do a lot of very similar things with kind of a different mindset.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (16:20)
you know, the approach to the product is a little different. It's open source and it's very, I don't know, just like a different set of values, I think, you know? So I think that's one. I also have thought about that in terms of like more clearly sort of defining your components as data so that you can move them around between things, right? So that's sort of this abstraction of components out of tooling in design or tooling in frameworks, like in JavaScript frameworks or whatever.
ep070 faces raw (16:20)
you know, the approach to the product is a little different. It's open source and it's very, I don't know, just like a different set of values, I think, you know? So think that's one. I also have thought about that in terms of like more clearly sort of defining your components as data so that you can move them around between things, right? So that's sort of this abstraction of components out of tooling in design or tooling in frameworks, like in JavaScript frameworks or whatever.
ep070 screen raw (16:20)
you know, the approach to the product is a little different. It's open source and it's very, I don't know, just like a different set of values, I think, you know? So think that's one. I also have thought about that in terms of like more clearly sort of defining your components as data so that you can move them around between things, right? So that's sort of this abstraction of components out of tooling in design or tooling in frameworks, like in JavaScript frameworks or whatever.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (16:50)
But I think we're early days on that. Just to be honest, those formats are still being developed. So all right, we got some folks lining up. I love it. Josh, jump in. Just a quick, because I remember, so ours went from like web components that they had to get React. So they wrapped them in React, but that was causing problems for consuming teams. And then they just went all in on React. for me, my instinct was kind of more like what Hannah said of trying to do something.
ep070 faces raw (16:50)
But I think we're early days on that. Just to be honest, those formats are still being developed. So, all right, we got some folks lining up. I love it. Josh, jump in. Just a quick, because I remember, so ours went from like web components that they had to get React. So they wrapped them in React, but that was causing problems for consuming teams. And then they just went all in on React. for me, my instinct was kind of more like what Hannah said of trying to do something.
ep070 screen raw (16:50)
But I think we're early days on that. Just to be honest, those formats are still being developed. So, all right, we got some folks lining up. I love it. Josh, jump in. Just a quick, because I remember, so ours went from like web components that they had to get React. So they wrapped them in React, but that was causing problems for consuming teams. And then they just went all in on React. for me, my instinct was kind of more like what Hannah said of trying to do something.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (17:19)
vanilla at the base that you could kind of transfer into different things, but instead they didn't build them in web components. Can someone explain to me what are the, why you would or would not do that? Piana, you want to take that one? Why you would or wouldn't build them as web components? Yeah, because I was trying to understand why would they not do that and then have a React version, I guess. Yeah.
ep070 faces raw (17:19)
vanilla at the base that you could kind of transfer into different things, but instead they didn't build them in web components. Can someone explain to me what are the, like, why you would or would not do that? Piana, you want to take that one? Why you would or wouldn't build them as web components? Yeah, because I couldn't kind of, I was trying to understand why would they not do that and then have a React version, I guess. Yeah.
ep070 screen raw (17:19)
vanilla at the base that you could kind of transfer into different things, but instead they didn't build them in web components. Can someone explain to me what are the, why you would or would not do that? Piana, you want to take that one? Why you would or wouldn't build them as web components? Yeah, because I was trying to understand why would they not do that and then have a React version, I guess. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (17:48)
It's not as, it's easy for me to say we write web components and we output them as React because it's not entirely true. So they are wrapped to make them React compatible. And that can cause problems. We ran into a lot of teething issues when we started that because there were certain things that our teams wanted from their React components that we weren't just getting out of the box using something like Stencil.
ep070 faces raw (17:48)
It's not as, it's easy for me to say we write web components and we output them as React because it's not entirely true. So they are wrapped to make them React compatible. And that can cause problems. We ran into a lot of teething issues when we started that because there were certain things that our teams wanted from their React components that we weren't just getting out of the box using something like Stencil.
ep070 screen raw (17:48)
It's not as, it's easy for me to say we write web components and we output them as React because it's not entirely true. So they are wrapped to make them React compatible. And that can cause problems. We ran into a lot of teething issues when we started that because there were certain things that our teams wanted from their React components that we weren't just getting out of the box using something like Stencil.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (18:16)
You can run into issues with things like web components use the shadow DOM, which can make it tricky to do various things when you're just using React components. there's kind of, we had to make a lot of tweaks to what we were outputting to make it what was needed by our React teams. And quite often it can kind of come down to dealing with what React teams are comfortable with rather than what's actually useful.
ep070 faces raw (18:16)
You can run into issues with things like web components use the shadow DOM, which can make it tricky to do various things when you're just using React components. there's kind of, we had to make a lot of tweaks to what we were outputting to make it what was needed by our React teams. And quite often it can kind of come down to dealing with what React teams are comfortable with rather than what's actually useful.
ep070 screen raw (18:16)
you can run into issues with things like web components use the shadow DOM, which can make it tricky to do various things when you're just using React components. there's kind of, we had to make a lot of tweaks to what we were outputting to make it what was needed by our React teams. And quite often it can kind of come down to dealing with what React teams are comfortable with rather than what's actually useful.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (18:44)
A lot of the problems that we had initially were just teams who were really unwilling to deal with anything that wasn't pure React as it was written originally. And that was more of like a, I don't know, I guess it was more of a sort of a React developer culture thing rather than actual technical implementation. Like they were just sort of very clear that they only wanted their components as React. And so that was more of kind of...
ep070 faces raw (18:44)
A lot of the problems that we had initially were just teams who were really unwilling to deal with anything that wasn't pure React as it was written originally. And that was more of like a, I don't know, I guess it was more of a sort of a React developer culture thing rather than actual technical implementation. Like they were just sort of very clear that they only wanted their components as React. And so that was more of kind of... ⁓
ep070 screen raw (18:44)
A lot of the problems that we had initially were just teams who were really unwilling to deal with anything that wasn't pure React ⁓ as it was written originally. And that was more of like a, I don't know, I guess it was more of a sort of a React developer culture thing rather than actual technical implementation. Like they were just sort of very clear that they only wanted their components as React. And so that was more of kind of... ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (19:09)
kind of like an education and mind changing piece of work to do than it was actually doing things to adjust the technical implementation. But yeah, it can take time. Like we ended up having, ⁓ so Stencyl will have it, it has its own kind of React output function in it where you can run the script that's built in and it will just put these components out. But we have some additional scripting on top of that to process those.
ep070 faces raw (19:09)
kind of like an education and mind-changing piece of work to do than it was actually doing things to adjust the technical implementation. ⁓ But yeah, it can take time. we ended up having, so Stencyl will have, it has its own kind of React output function in it where you can run the script that's built in and it will just put these components out. But we have some additional scripting on top of that to process those.
ep070 screen raw (19:09)
kind of like an education and mind changing piece of work to do than it was actually doing things to adjust the technical implementation. But yeah, it can take time. we ended up having, so Stencyl will have it, it has its own kind of React output function in it where you can run the script that's built in and it will just put these components out. But we have some additional scripting on top of that to process those.
ep070 faces raw (19:38)
⁓
So I think a lot of it comes down to like getting those requirements from teams who want the React components from the outset so you know exactly what they want the components to look like. ⁓ We added in things to generate a separate types file, for example, because they wanted that, which is perfectly reasonable. ⁓ But making sure that you know what those requirements are and then seeing if you can meet them, but not just assuming that.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (19:38)
So I think a lot of it comes down to like getting those requirements from teams who want the React components from the outset. So you know exactly what they want the components to look like. ⁓ We added in things to generate a separate types file, for example, because they wanted that, which is perfectly reasonable. ⁓ But making sure that you know what those requirements are and then seeing if you can meet them, but not just assuming that
ep070 screen raw (19:38)
So I think a lot of it comes down to like getting those requirements from teams who want the React components from the outset. So you know exactly what they want the components to look like. We added in things to generate a separate types file, for example, because they wanted that, which is perfectly reasonable. ⁓ But making sure that you know what those requirements are and then seeing if you can meet them, but not just assuming that
ep070 faces raw (20:03)
straight out of the box, a web component converted with a React wrapper will do everything because it won't necessarily.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (20:03)
straight out of the box, a web component converted with a React wrapper will do everything because it won't necessarily.
ep070 screen raw (20:03)
straight out of the box, a web component converted with a React wrapper will do everything because it won't necessarily.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (20:09)
Okay, that makes sense because I think there probably was not that much asking what's needed. And then when we actually released the Pure React ones explaining to people the difference between React, Rap and Pure, if they're non tech people was very hard. They're like, what does that mean? Yeah. Yeah.
ep070 screen raw (20:09)
Okay, that makes sense because I think there probably was not that much asking what's needed. And then when we actually released the Pure React ones explaining to people the difference between React, Rap and Pure, if they're non tech people was very hard. They're like, what does that mean? Yeah, yeah,
ep070 faces raw (20:09)
Okay. That makes sense because I think there probably was not that much asking what's needed. And then when we actually released the Pure React ones explaining to people the difference between the React wrap and Pure, if they're non tech people was very hard. They're like, well, what does that mean? Yeah. Yeah.
ep070 screen raw (20:29)
it's yeah, I've had a lot of those conversations over the past couple of years. Yeah, I I think, I don't know.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (20:29)
It's yeah. I've had a lot of those conversations over the past couple of years. Yeah. I don't know.
ep070 faces raw (20:30)
Yeah, I've had a lot of those conversations over the past couple of years. Yeah, I think, don't know.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (20:39)
I used to be a React developer, so I find it very easy to be mean to React developers, but I think a lot of it is just familiarity and loyalty to what you know and not wanting to necessarily do anything different. Yeah. Hannah, can you tell us a little bit more about the additional scripting on top of what Stencil does to generate those React components?
ep070 screen raw (20:39)
I used to be a React developer, so I find it very easy to be mean to React developers, but I think a lot of it is just familiarity and loyalty to what you know and not wanting to necessarily do anything different. Yeah. Hannah, can you tell us a little bit more about the additional scripting on top of what Stencil does to generate those React components?
ep070 faces raw (20:39)
I used to be a React developer, so I find it very easy to be mean to React developers, but I think a lot of it is just familiarity and loyalty to what you know and not wanting to necessarily do anything different. Yeah. Hannah, can you tell us a little bit more about the additional scripting on top of what Stencil does to generate those React components?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (20:59)
Yeah. So we were doing things like having, we would write our web components with like default prop values, for example, and
ep070 screen raw (20:59)
Yeah. So we were doing things like having, we would write our web components with like default prop values, for example, and
ep070 faces raw (20:59)
Yeah, so we were doing things like having, would write our web components with like default prop values, for example. And
while they would work perfectly fine in web components and you would get like ⁓ auto completion, if you were just using a web component in your IDE, you wouldn't get that. It wasn't being passed through to react. So part of that script is basically it pulls out where we've written a comment saying this is what the default value is.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (21:08)
while they would work perfectly fine in Web Components and you would get like ⁓ auto-completion if you were just using a Web Component in your IDE, you wouldn't get that. It wasn't being passed through to React. So part of that script is basically it pulls out where we've written a comment saying this is what the default value is.
ep070 screen raw (21:08)
while they would work perfectly fine in Web Components and you would get like ⁓ auto completion, if you were just using a Web Component in your IDE, you wouldn't get that. It wasn't being passed through to React. So part of that script is basically it pulls out where we've written a comment saying this is what the default value is.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (21:25)
The script runs, it pulls those out, it puts it into the types file. So then if there isn't a value provided for a prop that should have a default, it will fall back to that instead.
ep070 screen raw (21:25)
The script runs, it pulls those out, it puts it into the types file. So then if there isn't a value provided for a prop that should have a default, it will fall back to that instead.
ep070 faces raw (21:26)
script runs, it pulls those out, it puts it into the types file, so then if there isn't a value provided for a prop that should have a default, it will fall back to that instead.
So just like those kind of little quality of life things where you would expect if you were using a component and you didn't include something that was a required prop, you would get a red squiggly line saying this is required. We had to add some of those in with the type stuff to make sure that that was coming through.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (21:36)
So just like those kind of little quality of life things where, know, you would expect if you were using a component and you didn't include something that was a required prop, you would get like a red squiggly line saying this is required. We had kind of had to add some of those in with the type stuff to make sure that that was coming through. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (21:36)
So just like those kind of little quality of life things where, know, you would expect if you were using a component and you didn't include something that was a required prop, you would get like a red squiggly line saying this is required. We kind of had to add some of those in with the type stuff to make sure that that was coming through. ⁓
ep070 faces raw (21:51)
And then, and those default values as well. So like, there's a few different things like that that we did just to kind of make sure that the developers were getting the experience that they had expected and come to be, you know, happy with
Ben Callahan (zoom) (21:52)
and then, and those default values as well. like, there's a few different things like that, that we did just to kind of make sure that the developers were getting the experience that they had expected and come to be, you know, happy with.
ep070 screen raw (21:52)
and then, and those default values as well. like, there's a few different things like that, that we did just to kind of make sure that the developers were getting the experience that they had expected and come to be, you know, happy with.
ep070 faces raw (22:05)
when they were using our components as well as their own. Yeah. I love that that sort of, you're caring about the developer experience in that case, right? More than just giving them something they can work with, giving them something that is actually a joy to work with maybe, you know?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (22:05)
when they were using our components as well as their own. Yeah, I love that. That sort of, you're caring about the developer experience in that case, right? More than just giving them something they can work with, or giving them something that is actually a joy to work with maybe, you know?
ep070 screen raw (22:05)
when they were using our components as well as their own. Yeah, I love that. That sort of, you're caring about the developer experience in that case, right? More than just giving them something they can work with, or giving them something that is actually a joy to work with maybe, you know?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (22:20)
Yeah, and I think as well, part of the thing that we're very aware of is the fact that while we might ultimately be saying, you know, we're going to make things easier for you, we're providing you with these resources.
ep070 screen raw (22:20)
Yeah, and I think as well, you know, part of the thing that we're very aware of is the fact that while we might ultimately be saying, you know, we're going to make things easier for you, we're providing you with these resources,
ep070 faces raw (22:20)
Yeah, and I think as well, part of the thing that we're very aware of is the fact that while we might ultimately be saying, we're going to make things easier for you, we're providing you with these resources,
what you're actually doing at the beginning is making more work for teams that already have enough to do, because you're saying replace your existing stuff with what we've built. And so you have to really lower that barrier to entry to even convince them to think about doing it. Otherwise they're just not going to bother if it's too much like hard work.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (22:32)
What you're actually doing at the beginning is making more work for teams that already have enough to do, because you're saying replace your existing stuff with what we've built. And so you have to really lower that barrier to entry to even convince them to think about doing it. Otherwise, they're just not going to bother if it's too much like hard work. Yeah.
ep070 screen raw (22:32)
What you're actually doing at the beginning is making more work for teams that already have enough to do because you're saying replace your existing stuff with what we've built. And so you have to really lower that barrier to entry to even convince them to think about doing it. Otherwise they're just not going to bother if it's too much like hard work. Yeah.
All right. Let's get some other folks in. Guy, jump in, buddy. Hey, excuse me. Can I talk design and figment tools? Please. Awesome. Which again,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (22:50)
All right, let's get some other folks in. Guy, jump in, buddy. Hey, excuse me. Can I talk design and figment tools? Please. Awesome. Which again,
ep070 faces raw (22:50)
All right, let's get some other folks in. Guy, jump in, buddy. Hey. Excuse me, can I talk design and figment tools? Please. Awesome. Which again,
not my favorite topic, but ⁓ so I work at a large enterprise company and definitely, so we have a huge product engineering organization and ⁓ but still a lot of silos within that. So there's a bit of a wild west.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (23:01)
not my favorite topic, but ⁓ so I work at a large enterprise company and definitely. So we have a huge product engineering organization and ⁓ but still a lot of silos within that. So there's a bit of a wild west
ep070 screen raw (23:01)
not my favorite topic, but ⁓ so I work at a large enterprise company and definitely, so we have a huge product engineering organization and ⁓ but still a lot of silos within that. So there's a bit of a wild west
Ben Callahan (zoom) (23:19)
feeling where every like not everyone is doing exactly the same thing. A lot of teams are testing different rapid prototyping tools and those kinds of things. And designers are doing that as well, which is
ep070 screen raw (23:19)
feeling where every like not everyone is doing exactly the same thing. A lot of teams are testing different rapid prototyping tools and those kinds of things. And designers are doing that as well, which is
ep070 faces raw (23:19)
feeling where not everyone is doing exactly the same thing. A lot of teams are testing different rapid prototyping tools and those kind of things. And designers are doing that as well, which is
quite exciting because designers are getting more excited about building prototypes as the first thing they do or in working with engineers and with accessibility specialists and content and really trying to understand that together, which to me is a huge.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (23:31)
quite exciting because designers are getting more excited about building prototypes as the first thing they do or in working with engineers and with accessibility specialists and content and really trying to understand that together, which to me is a huge
ep070 screen raw (23:31)
quite exciting because designers are getting more excited about building prototypes as the first thing they do or in working with engineers and with accessibility specialists and content and really trying to understand that together, which to me is a huge ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (23:47)
improvement over building static pages in Figma and showing it to people and trying to get them to understand what you have in your head. Where we're sort of focusing our design system efforts right now and
ep070 faces raw (23:47)
⁓ improvement over building static pages in Figma and showing it to people and trying to get them to understand what you have in your head. ⁓ Where we're sort of focusing our design system efforts right now, and
ep070 screen raw (23:48)
improvement over building static pages in Figma and showing it to people and trying to get them to understand what you have in your head. ⁓ Where we're sort of focusing our design system efforts right now and
ep070 faces raw (24:01)
some of you know we won a zero height award for innovation last year for building an AI workflow from Figma designs to production level code, like actual production level code.
ep070 screen raw (24:01)
Some of you know we won a Zero Height Award for innovation last year for building an AI workflow from Figma designs to production level code, like actual production level code.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (24:01)
Some of you know we won a zero height award for innovation last year for building an AI workflow from Figma designs to production level code, like actual production level code.
We're working on augmenting some of the other workflows that are happening right now. So after you have a prototype, designers need to take it back into a design tool, which is we use Figma and
ep070 screen raw (24:15)
We're working on augmenting some of the other workflows that are happening right now. So after you have a prototype, designers need to take it back into a design tool, which is we use Figma and
ep070 faces raw (24:16)
⁓ We're working on augmenting some of the other workflows that are happening right now. So after you have a prototype, designers need to take it back into a design tool, which is we use Figma and
make sure that edge cases are accounted for and add accessibility annotations and all the things that need to happen to have a full, like ready for dev package. ⁓ And we really...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (24:29)
make sure that edge cases are accounted for and add accessibility annotations and all the things that need to happen to have a full, ready for dev package. And we're
ep070 screen raw (24:29)
make sure that edge cases are accounted for and add accessibility annotations and all the things that need to happen to have a full, ready for dev package. ⁓ And we're
Ben Callahan (zoom) (24:44)
working on a new version of our AI workflow where it takes a rapid prototype ⁓ and turns it using TJ's Figma Console MCP.
ep070 screen raw (24:44)
working on a new version of our AI workflow where it takes a rapid prototype ⁓ and turns it using TJ's Figma Console MCP.
ep070 faces raw (24:45)
working on a new version of our AI workflow where it takes a rapid prototype and turns it using TJ's Figma Console MCP
into a design that is using our design system library in Figma. So we're really using these tools that help people move faster in doing these things of like, oh, I just need to take this and recreate it in Figma.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (25:00)
into a design that is using our design system library in Figma. So we're really using these tools that help people move faster in doing these things of like, I just need to take this and recreate it Figma.
ep070 screen raw (25:00)
into a design that is using our design system library in Figma. So we're really using these tools that help people move faster in doing these things of like, I just need to take this and recreate it Figma.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (25:15)
And as a Trojan horse, we're making sure that they're using the design system along the way, which has been quite successful so far. So.
ep070 screen raw (25:15)
And as a Trojan horse, we're making sure that they're using the design system along the way, which has been quite successful so far. So.
ep070 faces raw (25:15)
And as a Trojan horse, we're making sure that they're using the design system along the way, ⁓ which has been quite successful so far. So
I don't know if that is really a design agnostic or a design tool agnostic thing, because we are working on something that technically can take any sort of input and spit out code and not just Figma. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (25:28)
⁓ I don't know if that is really a design agnostic or a design tool agnostic thing, because we are working on something that technically can take any sort of input and spit out code and not just Figma. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (25:28)
⁓ I don't know if that is really a design agnostic or a design tool agnostic thing, because we are working on something that technically can take any sort of input and spit out code and not just Figma. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (25:44)
But yeah, I think there's a big push into not necessarily, or I sense that there's a big push, not necessarily change Figma to a different design tool, but circumvent design tools altogether.
ep070 screen raw (25:44)
But yeah, I think there's a big push into not necessarily, or I sense that there's a big push, not necessarily change Figma to a different design tool, but circumvent design tools altogether.
ep070 faces raw (25:44)
But yeah, think there's a big push into not necessarily, or I sense that there's a big push, not necessarily change Figma to a different design tool, but circumvent design tools altogether. Yeah.
I mean, I hear you saying, Guy, by having translation available between frameworks and tools, we do sort of alleviate the need for any specific one. Is that kind of a way to summarize it?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (25:58)
I mean, hear you saying, Guy, that by having translation available between frameworks and tools, we do sort of alleviate the need for any specific one. Is that kind of a way to summarize it, like your
ep070 screen raw (25:58)
I mean, I hear you saying, Guy, that by having translation available between frameworks and tools, we do sort of alleviate the need for any specific one. Is that kind of a way to summarize it, like
your approach? Yeah, we're trying to be like the tool that spits out code. ⁓ Yes, it started with a here's a frame in Figma, create code out of it using our design system.
ep070 faces raw (26:13)
Your approach? Yeah, we're trying to be like the tool that spits out code. Yes, it started with a here's a frame in figma create code out of it using our design system,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (26:14)
approach? Yeah, we're trying to be like the tool that spits out code. Yes, it started with a here's a frame in Figma, create code out of it using our design system.
ep070 faces raw (26:26)
but we also use that to take a legacy design system that we had an upgraded to the new design system or we're looking into how do we take any sort of input to have that same output? Yeah, I love that.
ep070 screen raw (26:26)
but we also use that to take a legacy design system that we had and upgraded to the new design system. Or we're looking into how do we take any sort of input to have that same output? Yeah, I love that.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (26:26)
but we also use that to take a legacy design system that we had and upgraded to the new design system. Or we're looking into how do we take any sort of input to have that same output? Yeah, I love that.
My business partner and I were just talking about this idea of in a world where you can translate these things easily between their various.
ep070 screen raw (26:42)
My business partner and I were just talking about this idea of in a world where you can translate these things easily between their various.
ep070 faces raw (26:42)
My business partner and I were just talking about this idea of in a world where you can translate these things easily between their various,
the various places where they live. Do we need sort of a single source of truth or do we just need these things to exist somewhere? You know, so I don't know, a strange world that we're rapidly falling into here. Kelly, what's on your mind?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (26:53)
various places where they live, do we need sort of a single source of truth or do we just need these things to exist somewhere? know, so I don't know, a strange world that we're rapidly falling into here. Kelly, what's on your mind?
ep070 screen raw (26:53)
the various places where they live, do we need sort of a single source of truth or do we just need these things to exist somewhere? You know, so I don't know, a strange world that we're rapidly falling into here. Kelly, what's on your mind?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (27:11)
Almost forgot to unmute myself. Yeah, so I am also coming from a pretty large enterprise environment. So for like the last eight years or so across two companies, I've been on a dedicated design system team and like a team of two to three people max. So like pretty small little tight dedicated teams. And actually a month ago, the company that I've been at for the last two years decided to lay off their entire product design org, engineers, designers.
ep070 faces raw (27:11)
I almost forgot to unmute myself. Yeah, so I am also coming from a pretty large enterprise environment. So for like the last eight years or so across two companies, I've been on a dedicated design system team and like a team of two to three people max. So like pretty small little tight dedicated teams. And actually a month ago, the company that I've been at for the last two years decided to lay off their entire product design org, engineers, designers.
ep070 screen raw (27:11)
I almost forgot to unmute myself. Yeah, so I am also coming from a pretty large enterprise environment. So for like the last eight years or so across two companies, I've been on a dedicated design system team and like a team of two to three people max. So like pretty small little tight dedicated teams. And actually a month ago, the company that I've been at for the last two years decided to lay off their entire product design org, engineers, designers.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (27:40)
product managers, everybody just cut the entire thing. So that's a funny world that we're in. So I have the unfortunate insight right now of seeing a whole lot of job postings in this world and seeing sort of what companies are claiming to want and look for and ask for. ⁓ And I was thinking about earlier, the idea of like, is there too much design and design systems and like,
ep070 faces raw (27:40)
product managers, everybody just cut the entire thing. ⁓ So that's a funny world that we're in. So I have the unfortunate insight right now of seeing a whole lot of job postings in this world and seeing sort of what companies are claiming to want and look for and ask for. ⁓ And I was thinking about earlier, the idea of like, is there too much design and design systems and like,
ep070 screen raw (27:40)
product managers, everybody just cut the entire thing. So that's a funny world that we're in. So I have the unfortunate insight right now of seeing a whole lot of job postings in this world and seeing sort of what companies are claiming to want and look for and ask for. ⁓ And I was thinking about earlier, the idea of like, is there too much design and design systems and like,
ep070 faces raw (28:07)
something interesting that I'm seeing just anecdotally from looking at postings online and different companies and people posting about what their companies are doing is I really am getting this sense of like pitting design and engineering against each other in this conversation rather than sort of celebrating the idea that both sides bring a whole lot to the conversation and that both sides are important.
ep070 screen raw (28:07)
Something interesting that I'm seeing just anecdotally from looking at postings online and different companies and people posting about what their companies are doing is I really am getting this sense of like pitting design and engineering against each other in this conversation rather than sort of celebrating the idea that both sides bring a whole lot to the conversation and that both sides are important.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (28:07)
Something interesting that I'm seeing just anecdotally from looking at postings online to different companies and people posting about what their companies are doing is I really am getting this sense of like pitting design and engineering against each other in this conversation rather than sort of celebrating the idea that both sides bring a whole lot to the conversation and that both sides are important.
And obviously like I'm coming from the design side. like I have my own bias about like the importance of design and the importance of whiteboarding and research and mockups and all the doodling and brainstorming part of design and like the value that I personally think exists in that. ⁓ But it's really interesting to see a lot of companies doing this tug of war between we want a really design first person who also magically is a code wizard.
ep070 faces raw (28:33)
And obviously like I'm coming from the design side. like I have my own bias about like the importance of design and the importance of whiteboarding and research and mockups and all the doodling and brainstorming part of design and like the value that I personally think exists in that. But it's really interesting to see a lot of companies doing this tug of war between we want a really design first person who also magically is a code wizard.
ep070 screen raw (28:33)
And obviously like I'm coming from the design side. like I have my own bias about like the importance of design and the importance of whiteboarding and research and mockups and all the doodling and brainstorming part of design and like the value that I personally think exists in that. But it's really interesting to see a lot of companies doing this tug of war between we want a really design first person who also magically is a code wizard.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (29:02)
or we want like the world's best developer who also magically is a design expert. And I think expecting one person to be all of that is kind of silly and unfair. And probably is gonna get you somebody who's like, you know, really good at one thing and like, not bad at another thing, but like, it's not, it's not their strongest suit. And I think cutting out the idea that like,
ep070 faces raw (29:02)
or we want like the world's best developer who also magically is a design expert. And I think expecting one person to be all of that is kind of silly and unfair. ⁓ And probably is gonna get you somebody who's like, you know, really good at one thing and like, not bad at another thing, but like, it's not, it's not their strongest suit. And I think cutting out the idea that like,
ep070 screen raw (29:02)
or we want like the world's best developer who also magically is a design expert. And I think expecting one person to be all of that is kind of silly and unfair. ⁓ And probably is gonna get you somebody who's like, you know, really good at one thing and like, not bad at another thing, but like, it's not, it's not their strongest suit. And I think cutting out the idea that like,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (29:30)
I think if you ask any designer who's been in this field a long time, we will talk endlessly about how we feel like we are constantly trying to justify our value to a lot of companies and like what the value of design is because it's not always as tangible. And there's a, you know, it's a factual statement that like without engineers, the thing doesn't exist in the world. I've made a pretty picture of it, which is cool, but like you need someone who codes to make it usable.
ep070 faces raw (29:30)
I think if you ask any designer who's been in this field a long time, we will talk endlessly about how we feel like we are constantly trying to justify our value to a lot of companies and like what the value of design is because it's not always as tangible. And there's a, you know, it's a factual statement that like without engineers, the thing doesn't exist in the world. I've made a pretty picture of it, which is cool, but like you need someone who codes to make it usable.
ep070 screen raw (29:30)
I think if you ask any designer who's been in this field a long time, we will talk endlessly about how we feel like we are constantly trying to justify our value to a lot of companies and like what the value of design is because it's not always as tangible. And there's a, you know, it's a factual statement that like without engineers, the thing doesn't exist in the world. I've made a pretty picture of it, which is cool, but like you need someone who codes to make it usable.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (29:55)
⁓ so I don't know, I think it's just, it's an interesting time to be sitting in this space and to be like, still trying to advocate that like both sides of the equation brings so much value. And the team that I just left was, ⁓ as a dedicated team myself and one front end engineer. And I felt like it was some of the coolest work I'd ever done, like working so closely and so tightly with someone where every component we worked on had a really strong design representation, but also a really strong engineering representation and to be able to like.
ep070 screen raw (29:55)
⁓ so I don't know, I think it's just, it's an interesting time to be sitting in this space and to be like, still trying to advocate that like both sides of the equation brings so much value. And the team that I just left was, ⁓ as a dedicated team myself and one front end engineer. And I felt like it was some of the coolest work I'd ever done, like working so closely and so tightly with someone where every component we worked on had a really strong design representation, but also a really strong engineering representation and to be able to like.
ep070 faces raw (29:55)
so I don't know, I think it's just, it's an interesting time to be sitting in this space and to be like, still trying to advocate that like both sides of the equation brings so much value. And the team that I just left was, ⁓ as a dedicated team myself and one front end engineer. And I felt like it was some of the coolest work I'd ever done, like working so closely and so tightly with someone where every component we worked on had a really strong design representation, but also a really strong engineering representation and to be able to like.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (30:25)
everything that went out the door was very felt very balanced between the two sides. Um, so yeah, I don't even know if I have a point, but I just think it's, it's an interesting for me anyway, observation of the current market and expectations. Yeah. Wow. What a rough season to be in. And then you add in the layers of like AI can do all these things too. And it's just like, we don't need these people, but to, have to see, have done, have that experience, Kelly, where you're
ep070 screen raw (30:25)
everything that went out the door was very felt very balanced between the two sides. Um, so yeah, I don't even know if I have a point, but I just think it's, it's an interesting for me anyway, observation of the current market and expectations. Yeah. Wow. What a rough season to be in. And then you add in the layers of like AI can do all these things too. And it's just like, we don't need these people, but to, have to see, have done, have that experience, Kelly, where you're
ep070 faces raw (30:25)
everything that went out the door was very felt very balanced between the two sides. ⁓ so yeah, I don't even know if I have a point, but I just think it's, it's an interesting for me anyway, observation of the current market and expectations. Yeah. Wow. What a rough season to be in. And then you add in the layers of like AI can do all these things too. And it's just like, we don't need these people, but to, have to see, have done, have that experience, Kelly, where you're
so tightly integrated with the other discipline. It's like it makes it hard to go any other way. know, like you, it's almost like you're spoiled, you know, in that sort of environment. Yeah, definitely. Well, hopefully we can support you as you look for something new, Kelly, let us know if we can help. Hannah, any thoughts on this? Is this kind of resonating with you? I think it's really interesting because I think this does feel like kind of a new space that we're in, but it's something that we've seen a lot in software.
ep070 screen raw (30:54)
so tightly integrated with the other discipline. It's like it makes it hard to go any other way. know, like you, it's almost like you're spoiled, you know, in that sort of environment. Yeah, definitely. Well, hopefully we can support you as you look for something new, Kelly, let us know if we can help. Hannah, any thoughts on this? Is this kind of resonating with you? I think it's really interesting because I think this does feel like kind of a new space that we're in, but it's something that we've seen a lot in software.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (30:54)
so tightly integrated with the other discipline, it's like it makes it hard to go any other way. know, like you, it's almost like you're spoiled, you know, in that sort of environment. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, hopefully we can support you as you look for something new, Kelly, let us know if we can help. Hannah, any thoughts on this? Is this kind of resonating with you? I think it's really interesting because I think this does feel like kind of a new space that we're in, but it's something that we've seen a lot in software.
in that the whole notion of a full stack developer and whether that's what companies want or not kind of goes in cycles. Like you get companies that suddenly that see the value of having back-enders and front-enders and the fact that those skills are very niche and having people who are experts in that specific area is useful. And then it kind of gets to a point where companies are like, well, actually we need to save money. Let's just get full stack developers in. And generally speaking, coming from a full stack background.
ep070 faces raw (31:24)
in that the whole notion of a full stack developer and whether that's what companies want or not kind of goes in cycles. Like you get companies that suddenly that see the value of having back-enders and front-enders and the fact that those skills are very niche and having people who are experts in that specific area is useful. And then it kind of gets to a point where companies are like, well, actually we need to save money. Let's just get full stack developers in. And generally speaking, coming from a full stack background.
ep070 screen raw (31:24)
in that the whole notion of a full stack developer and whether that's what companies want or not kind of goes in cycles. Like you get companies that suddenly that see the value of having back-enders and front-enders and the fact that those skills are very niche and having people who are experts in that specific area is useful. And then it kind of gets to a point where companies are like, well, actually we need to save money. Let's just get full stack developers in. And generally speaking, coming from a full stack background.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (31:53)
full stack means back end and yeah, sure I can do front end because that's easy, right? And then, you know, at some point you get that kind of switch again where it's like, well, actually we're really good at the backend stuff, but our front end isn't great. Maybe we should hire front enders in again. So this kind of, this notion of suddenly thinking that everybody can do everything, it kind of goes in circles quite often. And hopefully that's going to be the case here in that people will realize you can't get someone who does everything really well. Like it's just too much to ask.
ep070 faces raw (31:53)
full stack means back end and yeah, sure I can do front end because that's easy, right? And then, know, at some point you get that kind of switch again where it's like, well, actually we're really good at the backend stuff, but our front end isn't great. Maybe we should hire front enders in again. So this kind of, this notion of suddenly thinking that everybody can do everything, it kind of goes in circles quite often. And hopefully that's going to be the case here in that people will realize you can't get someone who does everything really well. Like it's just too much to ask.
ep070 screen raw (31:53)
full stack means back end and yeah, sure, I can do front end because that's easy, right? And then, you know, at some point you get that kind of switch again where it's like, well, actually we're really good at the backend stuff, but our front end isn't great. Maybe we should hire front enders in again. So this kind of, this notion of suddenly thinking that everybody can do everything, it kind of goes in circles quite often. And hopefully that's going to be the case here in that people will realize you can't get someone who does everything really well. Like it's just too much to ask.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (32:23)
Yeah. my goodness. This comes up in every consulting gig. It's just like every company has hundreds of full-stack devs and nobody that can actually write front-end code. it's like wild. Greg, jump in, buddy. What's up? Yeah. I have so many thoughts right now. ⁓ So ⁓ I think the foremost one that I wanted to ⁓ sort of jump into
ep070 faces raw (32:23)
Yeah. my goodness. This comes up in every consulting gig. It's just like every company has hundreds of full stack devs and nobody that can actually write front end code. it's like wild. Greg, jump in buddy. What's up? Yeah. I have somebody's thoughts right now. ⁓ So ⁓ I think the foremost one that I wanted to kind of sort of jump into
ep070 screen raw (32:23)
Yeah. my goodness. This comes up in every consulting gig. It's just like every company has hundreds of full stack devs and nobody that can actually write front end code. it's like wild. Greg, jump in buddy. What's up? Yeah. I have somebody's thoughts right now. ⁓ So I think the foremost one that I wanted to kind of sort of jump into
Ben Callahan (zoom) (32:52)
after what Keeley just said is actually flipping the desire ⁓ to fill these roles with unicorns, essentially, and flip it back in reverse. Of course, unicorns do not exist. But if they did, ⁓ how many of those quote unquote unicorns want to do all the things that is expected of them as a unicorn?
ep070 faces raw (32:52)
after what Keeley just said is actually flipping the desire to fill these roles with unicorns, essentially, and flip it back in reverse. Of course, unicorns do not exist. But if they did, ⁓ how many of those quote unquote unicorns want to do all the things that is expected of them as a unicorn?
ep070 screen raw (32:52)
after what Keeley just said is actually flipping the desire to fill these roles with unicorns, essentially, and flip it back in reverse. Of course, unicorns do not exist. But if they did, ⁓ how many of those quote unquote unicorns want to do all the things that is expected of them as a unicorn?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (33:23)
If unicorns existed, I would be on the spectrum because I'm a designer and I want to stick in the design side, but I know enough code to do CSS, some JavaScript. Like I can read some code and I could, if I have access to code, I could make changes. I want to stick to places where I higher confidence, but I could do some damage or I could do some good.
ep070 faces raw (33:23)
If unicorns existed, I would be on the spectrum because I'm a designer and I want to stick in the design side, but I know enough code to do CSS, some JavaScript. Like I can read some code and I could, if I have access to code, I could make changes. I want to stick to places where I higher confidence, but I could do some damage or I could do some good.
ep070 screen raw (33:23)
If unicorns existed, I would be on the spectrum because I'm a designer and I want to stick in the design side, but I know enough code to do CSS, some JavaScript. Like I can read some code and I could, if I have access to code, I could make changes. I want to stick to places where I higher confidence, but I could do some damage or I could do some good.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (33:52)
But I don't want to be code all the time or majority of the time. I want to use my understanding of code to do the design job better, which in the age of AI is, I think, something everybody should be aspiring to, to some degree. if you're going to use AI for coding purposes, you're going to vibe code or something, you should be trying to learn enough about some of the, it works so that
ep070 faces raw (33:52)
But I don't want to be code all the time or majority of the time. I want to use my understanding of code to do the design job better, which in the age of AI is, I think, something everybody should be aspiring to, to some degree. Like, if you're going to use AI for coding purposes, you're going to vibe code or something, you should be trying to learn enough about some of the, it works so that
ep070 screen raw (33:52)
But I don't want to be code all the time or majority of the time. I want to use my understanding of code to do the design job better, which in the age of AI is, I think, something everybody should be aspiring to, to some degree. Like, if you're going to use AI for coding purposes, you're going to vibe code or something, you should be trying to learn enough about some of the, it works so that
Ben Callahan (zoom) (34:20)
you can do it better, you can prompt better, you can use the right terms better, you can understand how things fit together better so that when you're trying to do something, you get it and then you can do more. I'm not gonna say good or bad, but you can do more. Of course, the whole problem with the unicorn thing is that you're expected to be an expert in all these different things.
ep070 faces raw (34:20)
you can do it better, can prompt better, you can use the right terms better, you can understand how things fit together better so that when you're trying to do something, you get it and then you can do more. I'm not gonna say good or bad, but you can do more. Of course, the whole problem with the unicorn thing is that you're expected to be an expert in all these different things.
ep070 screen raw (34:20)
you can do it better, can prompt better, you can use the right terms better, you can understand how things fit together better so that when you're trying to do something, you get it and then you can do more. I'm not gonna say good or bad, but you can do more. Of course, the whole problem with the unicorn thing is that you're expected to be an expert in all these different things.
ep070 faces raw (34:49)
And I think we're actually seeing that with AI. The big danger is the high confidence that the AI is being the expert for you in a certain area. to use AI responsibly, you have to be.
ep070 screen raw (34:49)
And I think we're actually seeing that with AI. The big danger is the high confidence that the AI is being the expert for you in a certain area. to use AI responsibly, you have to be.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (34:49)
And I think we're actually seeing that with AI. The big danger is the high confidence that the AI is being the expert for you in a certain area. to use AI responsibly, you have to be.
either the expert that can discern that the AI did a good job, or you need to be able to go consult, know to consult with an expert that can discern that. ⁓ So hopefully AI helps us improve and augment and amplify what we're capable of doing. But ⁓ yeah, it's not going to turn everyone into a unicorn, ⁓ which actually there's been some talk, ⁓ and you guys could probably relate.
ep070 faces raw (35:06)
either the expert that can discern that the AI did a good job, or you need to be able to go consult, know to consult with an expert that can discern that. ⁓ So hopefully AI helps us improve and augment and amplify what we're capable of doing. But ⁓ yeah, it's not going to turn everyone into a unicorn, ⁓ which actually there's been some talk, ⁓ and you guys could probably relate.
ep070 screen raw (35:06)
either the expert that can discern that the AI did a good job, or you need to be able to go consult, know to consult with an expert that can discern that. ⁓ So hopefully AI helps us improve and augment and amplify what we're capable of doing. But ⁓ yeah, it's not going to turn everyone into a unicorn, ⁓ which actually there's been some talk, ⁓ and you guys could probably relate.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (35:36)
to this is like the idea that designers, developers, product people are all gonna become builders and that you might have smaller teams with less specialization because that just sounds like you got a bunch of unicorns working on a super team. But it scares me because I'm like, wait, wait, wait, no, now you're expecting a single person to learn all this new stuff that there's a reason why we don't all know all this stuff. It's really hard.
ep070 faces raw (35:36)
to this is like the idea that designers, developers, product people are all gonna become builders and that you might have smaller teams with less specialization because that just sounds like you got a bunch of unicorns working on a super team. But it scares me because I'm like, wait, wait, wait, no, now you're expecting a single person to learn all this new stuff that there's a reason why we don't all know all this stuff. It's really hard.
ep070 screen raw (35:36)
to this is like the idea that designers, developers, product people are all gonna become builders and that you might have smaller teams with less specialization because that just sounds like you got a bunch of unicorns working on a super team. But it scares me because I'm like, wait, wait, wait, no, now you're expecting a single person to learn all this new stuff that there's a reason why we don't all know all this stuff. It's really hard.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (36:05)
And we don't all want to do it, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate all that, Greg. think a lot of, I see a lot of nodding heads here. So a lot of folks are feeling it. Amy, get into the conversation. What's up? yeah. Just to piggyback on that. Like we're starting to see on some of our product teams, especially ones that are moving really fast is that the workflow is where some designers are working directly in the code base. They may kind of sketch out ideas real quick.
ep070 faces raw (36:05)
And we don't all want to do it, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate all that, Greg. think a lot of, I see a lot of nodding heads here. So a lot of folks are feeling it. Amy, get into the conversation. What's up? yeah. Just to piggyback on that. Like we're starting to see on some of our product teams, especially ones that are moving really fast is that the workflow is where some designers are working directly in the code base. They may kind of sketch out ideas real
ep070 screen raw (36:05)
And we don't all want to do it, right? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate all that, Greg. think a lot of, I see a lot of nodding heads here. So a lot of folks are feeling it. Amy, get into the conversation. What's up? yeah. Just to piggyback on that. Like we're starting to see on some of our product teams, especially ones that are moving really fast is that the workflow is where some designers are working directly in the code base. They may kind of sketch out ideas real
quick in Figma just to get it out. ⁓ But then they're opening a branch on a repo and they're kind of vibe coding ⁓ sort of assembly line, right? They're getting the visuals down and then another engineer will kind of come in behind and actually sort of make it work. And so some of the things that are on my mind is like, how can design systems kind of
Ben Callahan (zoom) (36:34)
in Figma just to get it out. ⁓ But then they're opening a branch on a repo and they're kind of vibe coding ⁓ sort of assembly line, right? They're getting the visuals down and then another engineer will kind of come in behind and actually sort of make it work. And so some of the things that are on my mind is like, how can design systems kind of
ep070 faces raw (36:34)
in Figma just to get it out. ⁓ But then they're opening a branch on a repo and they're kind of vibe coding ⁓ sort of assembly line, right? They're getting the visuals down and then another engineer will kind of come in behind and actually sort of make it work. And so some of the things that are on my mind is like, how can design systems kind of
Ben Callahan (zoom) (37:03)
help in that process, right? Like help designers be more effective with their vibe coding and also to reduce some of the chaos that that might create. know, creating tools to sort of make sure that they stick to the design system, that they have all the context that they need and so forth. Yeah. It's interesting. It's like there's so many different ways that I could see something like that.
ep070 faces raw (37:03)
help in that process, right? Like help designers be more effective with their vibe coding and also to reduce some of the chaos that that might create. ⁓ You know, creating tools to sort of make sure that they stick to the design system, that they have all the context that they need and so forth. Yeah. It's interesting. It's like, there's so many different ways that I could see something like that.
ep070 screen raw (37:03)
help in that process, right? Like help designers be more effective with their vibe coding and also to reduce some of the chaos that that might create. You know, creating tools to sort of make sure that they stick to the design system, that they have all the context that they need and so forth. Yeah. It's interesting. It's like there's so many different ways that I could see something like that.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (37:31)
playing out, know, some engineers are going to be like, great, thanks, you're giving me a starting point to work with. And some are going to be like, heck no, I write my own code. So it's almost like it's more cultural than an individual maybe than organizational, know. ⁓ I want to bring, ⁓ so Joanna, I know you're on this call because I saw your, I think I saw you show up and I don't want to call you out, but I did see this message that you said that you've built two frameworks as opposed to a single framework agnostic approach.
ep070 faces raw (37:31)
playing out, know, some engineers are going to be like, great, thanks, you're giving me a starting point to work with. And some are going to be like, heck no, I write my own code. So it's almost like it's more cultural than an individual maybe than organizational, know. ⁓ I want to bring, ⁓ so Joanna, I know you're on this call because I saw your, I think I saw you show up and I don't want to call you out, but I did see this message that you said that you've built two frameworks as opposed to a single framework agnostic approach.
ep070 screen raw (37:31)
playing out, know, some engineers are going to be like, great, thanks, you're giving me a starting point to work with. And some are going to be like, heck no, I write my own code. So it's almost like it's more cultural than an individual maybe than organizational, know. ⁓ I want to bring, ⁓ so Joanna, I know you're on this call because I saw your, I think I saw you show up and I don't want to call you out, but I did see this message that you said that you've built two frameworks as opposed to a single framework agnostic approach.
ep070 faces raw (38:01)
If you're willing to share a little bit more, would love to hear the reasoning for that. are there others on the call who have taken this approach too, right? Where, hey, we think of our systems as sort of like this component is a thing that sort of exists. And then we build multiple instances of that across different types of engineering frameworks or platforms. Anybody have thoughts on this approach as opposed to using something like what Hannah described earlier, where we build it as a web component using Stencil, WrapIt and ReleaseIt for different frameworks.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (38:01)
If you're willing to share a little bit more, would love to hear the reasoning for that. are there others on the call who have taken this approach too, right? Where, hey, we think of our systems as sort of like this component is a thing that sort of exists. And then we build multiple instances of that across different types of engineering frameworks or platforms. Anybody have thoughts on this approach as opposed to using something like what Hannah described earlier, where we build it as a web component using Stencil, WrapIt and ReleaseIt for different frameworks.
ep070 screen raw (38:01)
If you're willing to share a little bit more, would love to hear the reasoning for that. are there others on the call who have taken this approach too, right? Where, hey, we think of our systems as sort of like this component is a thing that sort of exists. And then we build multiple instances of that across different types of engineering frameworks or platforms. Anybody have thoughts on this approach as opposed to using something like what Hannah described earlier, where we build it as a web component using Stencil, WrapIt and ReleaseIt for different frameworks.
ep070 faces raw (38:31)
Anybody have thoughts on that? ⁓ she's here. Thank you for jumping ⁓ in. Yeah, I would say we first built our design system in React and didn't have intentions to do another framework. But we had a couple high priority teams come and say, we're only going to use the design system if you can build it in Angular. So then we had to build a whole copy of the design system in Angular. Do not recommend. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (38:31)
Anybody have thoughts on that? ⁓ she's here. Thank you for jumping in. Yeah, I would say we first built our design system in React and didn't have intentions to do another framework. But we had a couple high priority teams come and say, we're only going to use the design system if you can build it in Angular. So then we had to build a whole copy of the design system in Angular. Do not recommend. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (38:31)
Anybody have thoughts on that? ⁓ she's here. Thank you for jumping in. Yeah, I would say we first built our design system in React and didn't have intentions to do another framework, but we had a couple high priority teams come and say, we're only going to use the design system if you can build it in Angular. And so then we had to build like a whole copy of the design system in Angular. Do not recommend, but. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (38:59)
I do think that the engineers said both at the inception when we were starting in React and with Angular, there's these like native features of those frameworks that you can't get through something like Web Components. And so it would be not useful to us if you built it kind of agnostically. ⁓ But that said, there's like a different design system at our company for a different business unit where they've taken the Web Component approach. ⁓
ep070 faces raw (38:59)
I do think that the engineers said both at the inception when we were starting in React and with Angular, there's these like native features of those frameworks that you can't get through something like Web Components. And so it would be not useful to us if you built it kind of agnostically. ⁓ But that said, there's like a different design system at our company for a different business unit where they've taken the Web Component approach. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (38:59)
I do think that the engineers said both at the inception when we were starting in React and with Angular, there's these like native features of those frameworks that you can't get through something like Web Components. And so it would be not useful to us if you built it kind of agnostically. ⁓ But that said, there's like a different design system at our company for a different business unit where they've taken the Web Component approach. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (39:30)
We're kind of seeing how that all plays out. Yeah, interesting. Thanks for sharing, Joanna. Sean? I got some experience in building multiple implementations, but not across the web, but across native platforms as well. So the design system started off as a React library, and then we kind of moved into the mobile space as well, building out a native iOS and Android implementation.
ep070 faces raw (39:30)
We're kind of seeing how that all plays out. Yeah, interesting. Thanks for sharing, Joanna. Sean? I got some experience in building multiple implementations, but not across the web, but across native platforms as well. So the design system started off as a React library, and then we kind of moved into the mobile space as well, building out a native iOS and Android implementation.
ep070 screen raw (39:30)
We're kind of seeing how that all plays out. Yeah, interesting. Thanks for sharing, Joanna. Sean? I got some experience in building multiple implementations, but not across the web, but across native platforms as well. So the design system started off as a React library, and then we kind of moved into the mobile space as well, building out a native iOS and Android implementation.
ep070 faces raw (39:56)
Obviously not all things make sense. was things in the web design system that just didn't make sense when you're implementing in mobile. But when it came to implementing things in mobile which were the same as in web, we went pretty far in terms of trying to align those things, making sure that they are named consistently, they behave the same, they have the same options across web iOS, Android.
ep070 screen raw (39:56)
Obviously not all things make sense. was things in the web design system that just didn't make sense when you're implementing in mobile. But when it came to implementing things in mobile which were the same as in web, we went pretty far in terms of trying to align those things, making sure that they are named consistently, they behave the same, they have the same options across web iOS, Android.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (39:56)
Obviously not all things make sense. was things in the web design system that just didn't make sense when you're implementing in mobile. But when it came to implementing things in mobile which were the same as in web, we went pretty far in terms of trying to align those things, making sure that they are named consistently, they behave the same, they have the same options across web iOS, Android.
So those were fully unique code bases? was nothing shared? Were they sharing token? I guess they had a design token layer, which had some shared stuff. apart from that, nothing shared between them, just built by different engineers. Engineers within the same two separate teams, like a mobile team and a web team. And we needed a lot of effort and overhead of how do we keep these?
ep070 faces raw (40:26)
So those were fully unique code bases? was nothing shared? Were they sharing token? I guess they had a design token layer, which had some shared stuff. apart from that, nothing shared between them, just built by different engineers. Engineers within the same two separate teams, like a mobile team and a web team. And we needed a lot of effort and overhead of how do we keep these?
ep070 screen raw (40:26)
So those were fully unique code bases? was nothing shared? Were they sharing token? I guess they had a design token layer, which had some shared stuff. apart from that, nothing shared between them, just built by different engineers. Engineers within the same two separate teams, like a mobile team and a web team. And we needed a lot of effort and overhead of how do we keep these?
Ben Callahan (zoom) (40:55)
teams aligned and making sure that when we're working on a new component, have a representative from web and iOS and Android. And some really interesting things come up. Like when you put a web and an iOS and an Android engineer together in a room and say, hey, how do you build this thing? And web and Android go, yeah, that's really straightforward for us. And actually, it's actually pretty similar. But then iOS is like, no, that's completely different for us.
ep070 faces raw (40:55)
teams aligned and making sure that when we're working on a new component, have a representative from web and iOS and Android. And some really interesting things come up. Like when you put a web and an iOS and an Android engineer together in a room and say, hey, how do you build this thing? And web and Android go, yeah, that's really straightforward for us. And actually, it's actually pretty similar. But then iOS is like, no, that's completely different for us.
ep070 screen raw (40:55)
teams aligned and making sure that when we're working on a new component, have a representative from web and iOS and Android. And some really interesting things come up. Like when you put a web and an iOS and an Android engineer together in a room and say, hey, how do you build this thing? And web and Android go, yeah, that's really straightforward for us. And actually, it's actually pretty similar. But then iOS is like, no, that's completely different for us.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (41:22)
really interesting to sort of have those conversations and just see those three different disciplines kind of interact with each other. Yeah. So the question to Sean and Joanna who have dealt with this, how have you managed parity across all of those platforms? Like what's that process? Is there any automation? Is it all manual? Yeah, I was just typing this. Like we have been able to share some style work across the two frameworks, which has been helpful. So
ep070 faces raw (41:22)
really interesting to sort of have those conversations and just see those three different disciplines kind of interact with each other. Yeah. So the question to Sean and Joanna who have dealt with this, how have you managed parity across all of those platforms? Like what's that process? Is there any automation? Is it all manual? Yeah, I was just typing this. Like we have been able to share some style work across the two frameworks, which has been helpful. So
ep070 screen raw (41:22)
really interesting to sort of have those conversations and just see those three different disciplines kind of interact with each other. Yeah. So the question to Sean and Joanna who have dealt with this, how have you managed parity across all of those platforms? Like what's that process? Is there any automation? Is it all manual? Yeah, I was just typing this. Like we have been able to share some style work across the two frameworks, which has been helpful. So
Ben Callahan (zoom) (41:50)
We go React first and then into Angular. And ⁓ we don't have to start from scratch on the API or the style work. So that's a little bit more efficient for Angular. ⁓ And like Sean, we try to have same names of props or what they are in Angular. ⁓ But I have to kind of track parity of components and features across the two. ⁓
ep070 faces raw (41:50)
We go React first and then into Angular. And we don't have to start from scratch on the API or the style work. So that's a little bit more efficient for Angular. And like Sean, we try to have same names of props or what they are in Angular. But I have to kind of track parity of components and features across the two. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (41:50)
We go React first and then into Angular. And ⁓ we don't have to start from scratch on the API or the style work. So that's a little bit more efficient for Angular. ⁓ And like Sean, we try to have same names of props or what they are in Angular. ⁓ But I have to kind of track parity of components and features across the two.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (42:19)
Just given our resources, we're usually like four to six months behind in Angular versus React. But we also have a lot less Angular users. So I can fudge the priority of items based on the user requests. So I might move one component up to the top of the list, even though it came later than the other one, that kind of thing. Nice.
ep070 faces raw (42:19)
Just given our resources, we're usually like four to six months behind in Angular versus React. But we also have a lot less Angular users. So I can fudge the priority of items based on the user requests. So I might move one component up to the top of the list, even though it came later than the other one, that kind of thing. Nice.
ep070 screen raw (42:19)
Just given our resources, we're usually like four to six months behind in Angular versus React. But we also have a lot less Angular users. So I can fudge the priority of items based on the user requests. So I might move one component up to the top of the list, even though it came later than the other one, that kind of thing. Nice.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (42:47)
Any other thoughts, ⁓ How do we maintain parity? guess there's a token layer for foundational things that was automated for us, lot of algorithmically generated outputs that fed into iOS, Android, and web. And Figma, we used to treat Figma as if it was a separate platform. So the design system supported four platforms, web, iOS, Android, and Figma.
ep070 faces raw (42:47)
Any other thoughts, ⁓ How do we maintain parity? guess there's a token layer for foundational things that was automated for us, lot of ⁓ algorithmically generated outputs ⁓ that fed into iOS, Android, and web. And Figma, we used to treat Figma as if it was a separate platform. So the design system supported four platforms, web, iOS, Android, and Figma.
ep070 screen raw (42:47)
Any other thoughts, ⁓ How do we maintain parity? guess there's a token layer for foundational things that was automated for us, lot of ⁓ algorithmically generated outputs that fed into iOS, Android, and web. And Figma, we used to treat Figma as if it was a separate platform. So the design system supported four platforms, web, iOS, Android, and Figma.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (43:17)
I think that framing kind of really helped us to treat it as another platform alongside the kind of code outputs. ⁓ But then, kind of manually, really, for us keeping things in sync, having conversations around sort of APIs and how do we name things. ⁓ We were not too dogmatic with it. was cases where...
ep070 faces raw (43:17)
I think that framing kind of really helped us to treat it as another platform alongside the kind of code outputs. ⁓ But then, kind of manually, really, for us keeping things in sync, having conversations around sort of APIs and how do we name things. ⁓ We were not too dogmatic with it. was cases where...
ep070 screen raw (43:17)
I think that framing kind of really helped us to treat it as another platform alongside the kind of code outputs. ⁓ But then, kind of manually, really, for us keeping things in sync, having conversations around sort of APIs and how do we name things. ⁓ We were not too dogmatic with it. was cases where...
Ben Callahan (zoom) (43:42)
Look at a platform specific convention or like the way something is named on iOS. It didn't make sense for us to reinvent that and try and apply a different name. So for example, we, our sort of generic text component, it's called a label on iOS. So everywhere else is called text for iOS. It was called label just because we didn't want to override that platform convention. Hannah, did you
ep070 faces raw (43:42)
Look at a platform specific convention or like the way something is named on iOS. It didn't make sense for us to reinvent that and try and apply a different name. So for example, we, our sort of generic text component, it's called a label on iOS. So everywhere else is called text for iOS. It was called label just because we didn't want to override that platform convention. Hannah, did you
ep070 screen raw (43:42)
Look at a platform specific convention or like the way something is named on iOS. It didn't make sense for us to reinvent that and try and apply a different name. So for example, we, our sort of generic text component, it's called a label on iOS. So everywhere else is called text for iOS. It was called label just because we didn't want to override that platform convention. Hannah, did you
Ben Callahan (zoom) (44:09)
Before you all chose to sort of go with the Web Components stencil solution, were you evaluating whether you maintain two separate libraries? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like my thoughts personally, because it was pretty much the first thing I started looking at when I started at Intap. I was just like, why would we do anything other than React? Like, surely that's just what we should be doing.
ep070 faces raw (44:09)
Before you all chose to sort of go with the Web Components stencil solution, were you evaluating whether you maintain two separate libraries? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like my thoughts personally, because it was pretty much the first thing I started looking at when I started it in tap. I was just like, why would we do anything other than React? Like, surely that's just what we should be doing.
ep070 screen raw (44:09)
Before you all chose to sort of go with the Web Components stencil solution, were you evaluating whether you maintain two separate libraries? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like my thoughts personally, because it was pretty much the first thing I started looking at when I started it in tap. I was just like, why would we do anything other than React? Like, surely that's just what we should be doing.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (44:40)
But I I think for, mean, I very quickly changed my mind on that to be honest, because we are so constrained by the fact that there are just the three of us on the code side of things. And how can we, how can we do anything at all if we're having to maintain multiple libraries? And, you know, the, the kind of the native question, I mean, I don't want to say it keeps me up at night, but it has kept me up some nights, like trying to figure out like, how do we,
ep070 faces raw (44:40)
But I I think for, mean, I very quickly changed my mind on that to be honest, because we are so constrained by the fact that there are just the three of us on the code side of things. And how can we, how can we do anything at all if we're having to maintain multiple libraries? And, you know, the, the kind of the native question, I mean, I don't want to say it keeps me up at night, but it has kept me up some nights, like trying to figure out like, how do we,
ep070 screen raw (44:40)
But I I think for, mean, I very quickly changed my mind on that to be honest, because we are so constrained by the fact that there are just the three of us on the code side of things. And how can we, how can we do anything at all if we're having to maintain multiple libraries? And, you know, the, the kind of the native question, I mean, I don't want to say it keeps me up at night, but it has kept me up some nights, like trying to figure out like, how do we,
Ben Callahan (zoom) (45:10)
How do we actually do that? Because we haven't tackled that yet. We have a mobile team and we can't use our existing set up to provide a package for them. It just wouldn't work. So, you know, there's something that we need to try and figure out at some point. So like, how can we do that without falling into the trap of then having to have a whole other package to maintain that's going to be out of date that we don't have the resources to kind of keep up to date or maintain alongside everything else that we're already doing.
ep070 faces raw (45:10)
How do we actually do that? Because we haven't tackled that yet. We have a mobile team and we can't use our existing set up to provide a package for them. It just wouldn't work. So, you know, there's something that we need to try and figure out at some point. So like, how can we do that without falling into the trap of then having to have a whole other package to maintain that's going to be out of date that we don't have the resources to kind of keep up to date or maintain alongside everything else that we're already doing.
ep070 screen raw (45:10)
How do we actually do that? Because we haven't tackled that yet. We have a mobile team and we can't use our existing set up to provide a package for them. It just wouldn't work. So, you know, there's something that we need to try and figure out at some point. So like, how can we do that without falling into the trap of then having to have a whole other package to maintain that's going to be out of date that we don't have the resources to kind of keep up to date or maintain alongside everything else that we're already doing.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (45:40)
It's complicated. if you don't have a whole dedicated team to do that, then it suddenly becomes a lot of work on top of what you're already doing. Yeah. I think that is smart, right? To use sort of the team size as a constraint for, for like some of the choices that you're making. But of course, you know, like I think Joanna was talking about how some of the features that you can get
ep070 faces raw (45:40)
It's complicated. if you don't have a whole dedicated team to do that, then it suddenly becomes a lot of work on top of what you're already doing. Yeah. I think that is smart, right? To use sort of the team size as a constraint for, for like some of the choices that you're making. But of course, you know, like I think Joanna was talking about how some of the features that you can get
ep070 screen raw (45:40)
It's, it is complicated. And if you don't have a whole dedicated team to do that, then it suddenly becomes a lot of work on top of what you're already doing. Yeah. I think that is smart, right? To use sort of the team size as a constraint for, for, for like some of the choices that you're making. But of course, you know, like I think Joanna was talking about how some of the features that you can get.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (46:09)
by working in these platforms natively as opposed to, you know, through some other wrapper approach or whatever ⁓ can feel limiting to the consuming team. So yeah, we'll have to have you back once you solve the iOS and Android problem, Any other thoughts, folks, or is there another conversation from the data we want to dive into? I've got one other question here. Actually, Joanna, this is also you. Thanks for answering so thoroughly.
ep070 faces raw (46:09)
by working in these platforms natively as opposed to, you know, through some other wrapper approach or whatever ⁓ can feel limiting to the consuming team. So yeah, we'll have to have you back once you solve the iOS and Android problem, ⁓ Any other thoughts, folks, or is there another conversation from the data we want to dive into? I've got one other question here. Actually, Joanna, this is also you. Thanks for answering so thoroughly.
ep070 screen raw (46:09)
by working in these platforms natively as opposed to, you know, through some other wrapper approach or whatever can feel limiting to the consuming team. So yeah, we'll have to have you back once you solve the iOS and Android problem, Any other thoughts, folks, or is there another conversation from the data we want to dive into? I've got one other question here. Actually, Joanna, this is also you. Thanks for answering so thoroughly.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (46:36)
⁓ You had this idea of making APIs more flexible rather than less. And that allows for future features and scenarios. So I just thought I would toss it out to the, to the attendees to see, that, is that something that you think about as a characteristic of a more sustainable system infrastructure is like flexibility in the API or, or not. I'm just curious to hear how folks have approached that. ⁓
ep070 faces raw (46:36)
⁓ You had this idea of making APIs more flexible rather than less. And that allows for future features and scenarios. So I just thought I would toss it out to the, to the attendees to see, that, is that something that you think about as a characteristic of a more sustainable system infrastructure is like flexibility in the API or, or not. I'm just curious to hear how folks have approached that. ⁓
ep070 screen raw (46:36)
⁓ You had this idea of making APIs more flexible rather than less. And that allows for future features and scenarios. So I just thought I would toss it out to the, to the attendees to see, that, is that something that you think about as a characteristic of a more sustainable system infrastructure is like flexibility in the API or, or not. I'm just curious to hear how folks have approached that. ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (47:05)
jump right in if you've got thoughts. And Hannah, do you want to start us on that?
ep070 faces raw (47:05)
jump right in if you've got thoughts. And Hannah, do you want to start us on that?
ep070 screen raw (47:05)
jump right in if you've got thoughts. And Hannah, do you want to start us on that?
ep070 faces raw (47:10)
I think, I think it probably, you need, there's a, there's a balance, right? Like there's there's a tipping point where things could be too flexible. ⁓ and if something kind of could be anything, then it also then doesn't necessarily solve the right problems and gets way too complicated. ⁓ so yeah, I mean, but then obviously, you know, flexibility is inherently.
ep070 screen raw (47:10)
I think, I think it probably, you need, there's a, there's a balance, right? Like there's there's a tipping point where things could be too flexible. ⁓ and if something kind of could be anything, then it also then doesn't necessarily solve the right problems and gets way too complicated. ⁓ so yeah, I mean, but then obviously, you know, flexibility is inherently.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (47:10)
I think, I think it probably, you need, there's a, there's a balance, right? Like there's there's a tipping point where things could be too flexible. ⁓ and if something kind of could be anything, then it also then doesn't necessarily solve the right problems and gets way too complicated. ⁓ so yeah, I mean, but then obviously, you know, flexibility is inherently.
useful when we're trying to do what we're trying to do. Yeah, I think, but then, you know, how do you find that balance? How do you draw the line? Yeah. Joanna, jump in. Yeah. Well, I work at a large enterprise company as well. And when we first started the design system, we baked in a lot of stuff like specific spacing. And just like we had this idea that we were building for our
ep070 faces raw (47:39)
useful when we're trying to do what we're trying to do. Yeah, I think, but then, you know, how do you find that balance? How do you draw the line? Yeah. Joanna, jump in. Yeah. Well, I work at a large enterprise company as well. And when we first started the design system, we baked in a lot of stuff like specific spacing. And just like we had this idea that we were building for our
ep070 screen raw (47:39)
useful when we're trying to do what we're trying to do. Yeah, I think, but then, you know, how do you find that balance? How do you draw the line? Yeah. Joanna, jump in. Yeah. Well, I work at a large enterprise company as well. And when we first started the design system, we baked in a lot of stuff like specific spacing. And just like we had this idea that we were building for our
Ben Callahan (zoom) (48:07)
customers and we had ideas about like the spacing required for that. And now that was started in 2018. Now here we are and we're working on like internal facing tools for power users who are in the tool every day and like the spacing requirements are entirely different. And so we're having to go back and kind of like remove some of those built in decisions to allow the components to be used in more scenarios. But that's like breaking changes and it's just, it's, it's painful. So, ⁓
ep070 faces raw (48:07)
customers and we had ideas about like the spacing required for that. And now that was started in 2018. Now here we are and we're working on like internal facing tools for power users who are in the tool every day and like the spacing requirements are entirely different. And so we're having to go back and kind of like remove some of those built in decisions to allow the components to be used in more scenarios. But that's like breaking changes and it's just, it's, it's painful. So, ⁓
ep070 screen raw (48:07)
customers and we had ideas about like the spacing required for that. And now that was started in 2018. Now here we are and we're working on like internal facing tools for power users who are in the tool every day and like the spacing requirements are entirely different. And so we're having to go back and kind of like remove some of those built in decisions to allow the components to be used in more scenarios. But that's like breaking changes and it's just, it's, it's painful. So, ⁓
Ben Callahan (zoom) (48:36)
Looking back, I think we kind of had to be specific the way you're saying, Hannah, because otherwise it wouldn't have been a design system. It would have just been like, do whatever you want. But we're finding that the specificity in some cases has been limiting. Yeah, super helpful to hear. One of my clients is dealing with this exact thing around internal versus external apps and very specifically spacing differences.
ep070 screen raw (48:36)
Looking back, I think we kind of had to be specific the way you're saying, Hannah, because otherwise it wouldn't have been a design system. It would have just been like, do whatever you want. But we're finding that the specificity in some cases has been limiting. Yeah, super helpful to hear. One of my clients is dealing with this exact thing around internal versus external apps and very specifically spacing differences.
ep070 faces raw (48:37)
Looking back, I think we kind of had to be specific the way you're saying, Hannah, because otherwise it wouldn't have been a design system. We've just been like, do whatever you want. ⁓ But we're finding that the specificity in some cases has been limiting. Yeah, super helpful to hear. One of my clients is dealing with this exact thing around internal versus external apps and very specifically spacing differences.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (49:05)
That's, think, a challenge a lot of companies are facing right now. Mike, what's up? Yeah, I actually don't have. mean, Hannah and Joanna kind of already alluded to it, right? But it's something I've noticed in, I don't know, I guess ⁓ some of the sort of design system ⁓ authors out there, folks like Nathan Curtis and Dan Mullen. I see a lot of discussion of make it flexible, make it flexible.
ep070 faces raw (49:05)
That's, think, a challenge a lot of companies are facing right now. Mike, what's up? Yeah, I actually don't have. mean, Hannah and Joanna kind of already alluded to it, right? But it's something I've noticed in, I don't know, I guess ⁓ some of the sort of design system ⁓ authors out there, folks like Nathan Curtis and Dan Mullen. I see a lot of discussion of make it flexible, make it flexible.
ep070 screen raw (49:05)
That's, think, a challenge a lot of companies are facing right now. Mike, what's up? Yeah, I actually don't have. mean, Hannah and Joanna kind of already alluded to it, right? But it's something I've noticed in, I don't know, I guess ⁓ some of the sort of design system ⁓ authors out there, folks like Nathan Curtis and Dan Mullen. I see a lot of discussion of make it flexible, make it flexible.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (49:36)
And I struggle with that because I think like then at what point does it cease to become a design system if everything is completely flexible? And so it's just an interesting thought. And that's definitely the, you know, the common trope on our team, right, is when we're building new components, right, is finding that balance between flexibility and control and rigidity aren't the right words, right? But maintaining a sense of
ep070 faces raw (49:36)
And I struggle with that because I think like then at what point does it cease to become a design system if everything is completely flexible? And so it's just an interesting thought. And that's definitely the, you know, the common trope on our team, right, is when we're building new components, right, is finding that balance between flexibility and control and rigidity aren't the right words, right, but ⁓ maintaining a sense of
ep070 screen raw (49:36)
And I struggle with that because I think like then at what point does it cease to become a design system if everything is completely flexible? And so it's just an interesting thought. And that's definitely the, you know, the common trope on our team, right, is when we're building new components, right, is finding that balance between flexibility and control and rigidity aren't the right words, right? But ⁓ maintaining a sense of
Ben Callahan (zoom) (50:05)
brand and the design consistency and stuff. we have recently to kind of what Joanna was speaking to, right? Like, you know, our first set of designs were things like, I work for a bank. things like, you know, forms for signing up for credit cards and checking accounts, right? But, ⁓ you know, as we, as we grow and get more and more adoption, things like dashboards, right? Dashboards don't need this.
ep070 faces raw (50:05)
brand and the design consistency and stuff. we have recently to kind of what Joanna was speaking to, right? Like, you know, our first set of designs were things like, I work for a bank. things like, you know, forms for signing up for credit cards and checking accounts, right? But, ⁓ you know, as we, as we grow and get more and more adoption, things like dashboards, right? Dashboards don't need this.
ep070 screen raw (50:05)
brand and the design consistency and stuff. we have recently to kind of what Joanna was speaking to, Like, you know, our first set of designs were things like, I work for a bank. So things like, you know, forms for signing up for credit cards and checking accounts, right? But, ⁓ you know, as we, as we grow and get more and more adoption, things like dashboards, right? Dashboards don't need this.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (50:31)
generous spacing and white space that forms might have. So we're running into the same thing. So we recently added flexibility around things like padding within components, ⁓ border radius, things like that to allow for different types of applications to ⁓ obviously stay consistent within the application, but maybe have some flexibility around some of those design elements.
ep070 faces raw (50:31)
generous spacing and white space that forms might have. So we're running into the same thing. So we recently added flexibility around things like padding within components, ⁓ border radius, things like that to allow for different types of applications to ⁓ obviously stay consistent within the application, but maybe have some flexibility around some of those design elements.
ep070 screen raw (50:31)
generous spacing and white space that forms might have. So we're running into the same thing. So we recently added flexibility around things like padding within components, ⁓ border radius, things like that to allow for different types of applications to ⁓ obviously stay consistent within the application, but maybe have some flexibility around some of those design elements.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (51:01)
Well folks, we're ⁓ right at the end of our time. Bumpus, I'm so sorry buddy, but drop a comment in the chat for us, because we'd love to hear what you have to say. ⁓ Just a minute left to give you a couple quick announcements here. ⁓ First of all, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for kind of bringing a more engineering focused conversation to the community. We need more of this. So thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom and your time. Appreciate that. Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah.
ep070 faces raw (51:01)
Well folks, we're ⁓ right at the end of our time. Bumpus, I'm so sorry buddy, but drop a comment in the chat for us, because we'd love to hear what you have to say. ⁓ Just a minute left to give you a couple quick announcements here. ⁓ First of all, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for kind of bringing a more engineering focused conversation to the community. We need more of this. So thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom and your time. Appreciate that. Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah.
ep070 screen raw (51:01)
Well folks, we're ⁓ right at the end of our time. Bumpus, I'm so sorry buddy, but drop a comment in the chat for us, because we'd love to hear what you have to say. ⁓ Just a minute left to give you a couple quick announcements here. ⁓ First of all, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for kind of bringing a more engineering focused conversation to the community. We need more of this. So thank you for sharing so much of your wisdom and your time. Appreciate that. Thanks for having me on. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (51:28)
And then couple of announcements. ⁓ All the podcasts and YouTube shows from our last episode are out so you can get those here. Murphy Truman just released this really cool set of Clod Code skills, a skill pack for Clod. If you're doing systems work, check this thing out. It's loaded. ⁓ Lots of other good articles and things here. And then one of the folks in Redwoods is Kevin, and he's been doing these crazy experiments around how many colors can the human eye see. So he's looking for more folks to go and test this.
ep070 faces raw (51:28)
And then couple announcements. ⁓ All the podcasts and YouTube shows from our last episode are out so you can get those here. Murphy Truman just released this really cool set of cloud code skills, a skill pack for cloud. If you're doing systems work, check this thing out. It's loaded. ⁓ Lots of other good articles and things here. And then one of the folks in Redwoods is Kevin, and he's been doing these crazy experiments around how many colors can the human eye see. So he's looking for more folks to go and test this.
ep070 screen raw (51:28)
And then couple announcements. ⁓ All the podcasts and YouTube shows from our last episode are out so you can get those here. Murphy Truman just released this really cool set of Clodcode skills, a skill pack for Clod. If you're doing systems work, check this thing out. It's loaded. ⁓ Lots of other good articles and things here. And then one of the folks in Redwoods is Kevin, and he's been doing these crazy experiments around how many colors can the human eye see. So he's looking for more folks to go and test this.
Ben Callahan (zoom) (51:58)
So click this link, go run this little test to check your eyesight and ⁓ see sort of how you stack up against others. Drop things if you've got them in here, folks. Thank you so much for being here. It's so much fun to do this with you every episode, and I really truly appreciate all of your wisdom and experience. Hannah, you rock. Thank you.
ep070 faces raw (51:58)
So click this link, go run this little test to check your eyesight and ⁓ see sort of how you stack up against others. Drop things if you've got them in here, folks. Thank you so much for being here. It's so much fun to do this with you every episode, and I really truly appreciate all of your wisdom and experience. Hannah, you rock. Thank you.
ep070 screen raw (51:58)
So click this link, go run this little test to check your eyesight and ⁓ see sort of how you stack up against others. Drop things if you've got them in here, folks. Thank you so much for being here. It's so much fun to do this with you every episode, and I really truly appreciate all of your wisdom and experience. Hannah, you rock. Thank you.
Ben Callahan (52:18)
Thank you so much for joining us on episode 070 of The Question. This format doesn't work unless folks like you are willing to share some of your experience week after week. Remember, you can get access to the raw data, the collaborative FigJam, and all of the recordings for this episode on my website, bencallahan.com If you or your team could use an outside perspective on your design system program, I'd be honored to support you in that way.
There's much more information about my individual and team coaching program over on the website. Thanks for being here and remember, stay in learning mode.