How Time Biases Affect Our Lives with Dr. Meghan Sullivan

PJ and Dr. Meghan Sullivan discuss time biases, preferences, and how understanding the former can cultivate the good life. PJ also shares a funny, though unfortunate, story about crying over spilled milk.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. Meghan Sullivan discuss her philosophical work on time biases and how they impact our decision-making. Dr. Sullivan points out concrete ways to address these biases, encouraging us all to reflect on how to lead a richer life.

For a deep dive into Dr. Meghan Sullivan's work, check out her books:
The Good Life Method: Reasoning Through the Big Questions of Happiness, Faith, and Meaning 👉 https://amzn.to/36l3vgO
Time Biases: A Theory of Rational Planning and Personal Persistence  👉 https://amzn.to/3Eigxbf

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[Unknown6]: hello and welcome to chasing leviathan i'm your host pj wehry and i'm here today

[Unknown6]: with megan sullivan dr began sullivan she is the ws family collegiate professor of

[Unknown6]: philosophy at the university of nordine she serves as the director of the notre

[Unknown6]: dame institute for advanced studies also is the founder of noa dames god in the

[Unknown6]: good life program her research tends to focus on philosophical problems concerning

[Unknown6]: time modality rational planning value theory and religious belief sometimes all

[Unknown6]: five at once uh today we're gonna be talking about uh time biases a theory of

[Unknown6]: rational planning and personal persistence so kind of the main question we'll be

[Unknown6]: dealing with is how do our biases about time

[Unknown6]: uh prevent us from thinking well about

[Unknown6]: or how can we think better about time biases so that we can lead the good life and

[Unknown6]: that kind of goes towards even some of your other writings you just released the

[Unknown6]: good life method written along with paul blasco i probably just butchered that

[Unknown6]: name but

[Unknown5]: you got

[Unknown5]: you

[Unknown6]: close enough

[Unknown5]: out of just great he'll be so happy

[Unknown6]: and then and then you have another book coming out uh agapism uh how do you say

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: i say agapism but

[Unknown6]: okay

[Unknown5]: my my ancient greek pronunciation it is sorely lacking and i'm from north carolina

[Unknown5]: so pretty much everything i say is a little bit off

[Unknown6]: oh there you go yeah yeah i uh i lived in new england florida and then the midwest

[Unknown6]: and then back in florida so i have a midwestern accent for the most part but i say

[Unknown6]: y'all and then it come it becomes southern it's strange it's it's an odd thing

[Unknown5]: you've got the podcaster and podcast direct accent

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown6]: yes generic generic north

[Unknown5]: exactly

[Unknown6]: american broadcaster exit yes so go ism moral responsibility in our inner lives

[Unknown6]: which that's the tentative title and really excited

[Unknown6]: to have you on i think you definitely

[Unknown6]: completely match what chasing vith is all about this idea of pursuing big

[Unknown6]: questions so thank you for joining us today

[Unknown5]: oh thank you i'm really excited to talk about this

[Unknown6]: so tell us a little bit before we get started how did you one get into philosophy

[Unknown6]: and two um how did you get interested in the good life in particular

[Unknown5]: these are great questions uh i share this story with my students quite a bit but a

[Unknown5]: a lot of my like college freshmen just have no idea

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown5]: what philosophy is or they think they think it's like nica or black berets or is

[Unknown5]: are

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: we in the matrix they really don't understand it as a discipline before i see them

[Unknown5]: and i'm certainly the first professional philosopher most of them have ever met

[Unknown5]: but when i was in high school one of

[Unknown6]: what is my favorite

[Unknown5]: my very best friends her father was a philosophy professor at the local university

[Unknown5]: so i actually did know a philosopher at least really knew the child of a

[Unknown5]: philosopher when i

[Unknown6]: i was

[Unknown5]: was younger and i remember i was super judgmental totally awful teenager and me

[Unknown5]: and my caddy friends from high school would talk about how we did not understand

[Unknown5]: how this was a real job and like we we couldn't understand his books and like we

[Unknown5]: were we were i i i had harshly judged philosophers before i even got to college

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: policy

[Unknown5]: if you told me when i was seventeen i would end up having that job i would have

[Unknown5]: probably begged you to kill me but i that's i was totally

[Unknown5]: thought sure that i was destined to be a lawyer

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: and i loved doing debate when i was in high school

[Unknown5]: and i planned on majoring in politics at uv a and just going straight into law

[Unknown5]: school and was dead set on that and like all freshmen i couldn't get all the

[Unknown5]: classes that i had in my master plan that first semester and my academic advisor

[Unknown5]: stuck me in this ethics class called issues of life and death which you sounded

[Unknown5]: close

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: enough for my purposes to the kinds of topics i cared about in politics

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: so i took it it was this huge lecture class taught by cora diamond i know now that

[Unknown5]: she's a very prominent uh

[Unknown5]: philosopher but at the time she you know i i couldn't have picked her out of a

[Unknown6]: walking but the time

[Unknown5]: line up and and she was so magnetic and i loved everything that we read in that

[Unknown5]: class and i just remember the very first assignment we got for the midterm we'd

[Unknown5]: been reading a bunch of david hume on uh on suicide and

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: personal identity and she posed us this essay question for the first midterm is it

[Unknown5]: morally acceptable to commit suicide which seemed like such a

[Unknown6]: seven

[Unknown5]: dangerous question for me as a freshman like i shield i was i just remember

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: thinking like you allowed to ask that am i allowed to answer it um is this a trap

[Unknown5]: cause it just seems so like you know like a live wire question

[Unknown5]: and you know we had to make an argument using

[Unknown5]: the methods we'd been learning in the class and she really wanted to know she

[Unknown5]: wanted us to know the truth about the answer to the question so it's not

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: just what a dead people thought about this question but what is the answer and i

[Unknown6]: what do you think

[Unknown5]: the part of me that love to debate the part of me that

[Unknown6]: you

[Unknown5]: like clearly had this

[Unknown6]: i just

[Unknown5]: itch to ask

[Unknown5]: philosophical questions just

[Unknown6]: talking

[Unknown6]: just have for

[Unknown5]: absolutely loved working on that assignment and i loved

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: it so much more than my other classes uh where i just felt like i was trying to

[Unknown5]: figure out other people's views but i wasn't necessarily moving anywhere so i

[Unknown5]: remember after that class i thought

[Unknown6]: society one

[Unknown5]: i'm gonna make philosophy my hobby like i'm gonna take more classes like this

[Unknown5]: there'll be like a way of letting off some steam and finding meaning in college

[Unknown5]: but of course i

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown5]: have to keep taking government ec classes because i'm am going to be a lawyer

[Unknown5]: and as as time progressed

[Unknown6]: i love that philosophy is just your

[Unknown6]: hobby right like questions of meaning yeah that's what i do on the side yeah

[Unknown5]: philoso is my hobby i'm just

[Unknown5]: yeah i made a plan when i sixteen to be a lawyer and i'm not never ever going to

[Unknown5]: revise it ever uh and of course

[Unknown5]: i did an internship the summer between my second and third year of college with

[Unknown5]: this kind of pre law research sort of internship thing and on paper it looked

[Unknown5]: really awesome and i hated it i i have

[Unknown6]: he

[Unknown5]: had this journal from that summer where every day i would go to this job

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown5]: and just journal about how much i didn't like it and how bored i was and i would

[Unknown5]: go home at night i was living in a college dorm and another campus at that time

[Unknown5]: and i go home and i would read philosophy books and stephen king hovel and i

[Unknown5]: remember getting back from that job in august and i went to one of my philosophy

[Unknown5]: professors because by then i'd taken a ton of philosophy classes for fun and i

[Unknown5]: remember looking at him and just being like oh professor merricks i'm so sad

[Unknown5]: because

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: i'm just sad that i have to be a lawyer when i grow up like coz i really don't

[Unknown5]: like it which i which i discovered about myself this summer but you know that's

[Unknown6]: know that's that's what it is um say i remember any

[Unknown5]: that's what it is

[Unknown5]: and i remember him looking maybe like you don't have to be a lawyer like nobody

[Unknown5]: whoever said that you had to do this if you know if it turns out you don't like it

[Unknown5]: um and it's clear you really like philosophy

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: uh philosophy is a really hard job to get i remember he

[Unknown6]: everybody

[Unknown5]: was he was kind of clear with me on that but he's like but it's great and of

[Unknown5]: course you should go after it while you're young same same if it's the equivalent

[Unknown5]: of like saying p j you should like try out to be a rock star or you could be

[Unknown5]: president maybe

[Unknown5]: but he was really supportive and so were some of my other professors and that's

[Unknown5]: that kind of set me on the

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: path

[Unknown5]: but yeah yeah i do tell my

[Unknown6]: my kids

[Unknown5]: students like you know you you really have no clue what your real desires are when

[Unknown5]: you're seventeen and that's when things philosophy is quite helpful in helping you

[Unknown5]: grasp

[Unknown6]: yeah i

[Unknown6]: i've ended up going in other directions you um i'm a digital marketer by day

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: but know this is me getting back into it and

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: hopefully you know whether it makes money or not you know it'd be wonderful for it

[Unknown6]: to make money but the uh

[Unknown6]: it's so interesting how useful like i got a masters in philosophy from trinity in

[Unknown6]: deerfield illinois

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and like how useful that's been for business and

[Unknown6]: it's so like on paper you look unemployable except as a teacher and then i

[Unknown6]: actually went on to teach you know it's interesting

[Unknown6]: and then i found out i was

[Unknown5]: nice

[Unknown6]: i'm i'm good at certain aspects of teaching

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: but i'm very bad at

[Unknown6]: motivating people to learn because i don't understand why they don't want to so

[Unknown5]: oh no

[Unknown6]: it's very

[Unknown5]: totally totally one thing one of the areas that i work most on is metaphysics and

[Unknown5]: like philosophy of time and it's one of the classes i like to teach the least or i

[Unknown5]: find the

[Unknown6]: i see

[Unknown5]: most di i like to teach it but i find it the most difficult because it always

[Unknown5]: evolves into me just like being like why don't you love this why would you see it

[Unknown5]: which is not effective pedagogy it helps to have a little bit of distance i found

[Unknown5]: for getting students really excited about a project but i i spent about half of my

[Unknown5]: life right now

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: academic administration which is much more like working in a business

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: than it is um like working as a as a

[Unknown6]: water

[Unknown5]: philosopher and i use

[Unknown6]: ice

[Unknown5]: philosophy all the time ah

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: in trying to help people reason through a hard decision or trying to make

[Unknown5]: something that's really complex more clear and systematic

[Unknown5]: or even just trying to think about different ways of looking at a problem that

[Unknown5]: we're really stuck on this happens a lot of my job is you just get really

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: stuck in one way of thinking about how some things should go and philosophy is

[Unknown5]: really good at pushing you to think about a different i was literally i'm looking

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: at my w board in the office today literally describing to one of my colleagues

[Unknown5]: this idea of a budget as a possible world today

[Unknown6]: jog

[Unknown5]: think about this all the logic she she did not find that particularly helpful but

[Unknown5]: i found it very clarifying

[Unknown6]: yeah i i can't imagine why she struggled with that no

[Unknown5]: it

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown5]: just use motor logic this isn't the

[Unknown6]: it's so clear

[Unknown5]: actual world this is a near broad possible world

[Unknown6]: oh yeah and part of it you know there's a couple different things that definitely

[Unknown6]: resonate with me and one of them too is i like i was always told like if you're

[Unknown6]: gonna go for philosophy you have to teach right and so like and then i found i'm

[Unknown6]: like oh i don't like teaching like the profession like it j it felt very grinding

[Unknown6]: to me but then to find uh there are other avenues for what you can do you know

[Unknown6]: there's all sorts of different ways to express that or to use that desire and

[Unknown6]: passion it's really

[Unknown6]: awesome story i love

[Unknown6]: i love that idea of the very like fixated sixteen year old it's very clear like

[Unknown6]: why you are the way you are today like we were able to to push through and achieve

[Unknown6]: something that it's very difficult to get a job in philosophy just like you said

[Unknown6]: and that's that probably comes from that

[Unknown5]: oh yeah no it's complete like i i sometimes also feel like it's like mister mg

[Unknown5]: like you know you're just kind of blindly walking through optimistically all of

[Unknown5]: these obstacles and it just

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: it just it just keeps working out like the crane picks you up right before you

[Unknown5]: fall in the ditch and you end up and note or a

[Unknown5]: it's it's a good it's a good uh good system if you can get it it helps to be

[Unknown5]: it's it's a good it's a good uh good system if you can get it it helps to be

[Unknown6]: yeah that's really

[Unknown5]: blissfully unaware of all the danger i think

[Unknown5]: blissfully unaware of all the danger i think

[Unknown6]: yeah the the classic han solo never tell me the odds right like uh yeah ex

[Unknown5]: yeah exactly exactly

[Unknown6]: so tell me a little bit how did you get interested um specifically in the good

[Unknown6]: life like that seems to be a very big part of what you do

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown5]: i i've been interested in ethics since i was a college student as i said like that

[Unknown5]: was the

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: first class that got me hooked and and i went to oxford for the first part of

[Unknown6]: photograph

[Unknown5]: graduate school and picked moral philosophy as one of my areas to study there but

[Unknown5]: then you're encouraged to specialize like hyper specialize in

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: graduate school

[Unknown5]: and so when it came time to specialize i decided i really wanted to work on time

[Unknown5]: and really wanted to do really a technically challenging version of it so went

[Unknown5]: into metaphysics and kind of left that behind but i always liked reading moral

[Unknown6]: want

[Unknown5]: philosophy and i found myself thinking about it still all the time

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: and i hear it my first year

[Unknown5]: i inherited after my first year at not dame a really big introduction to

[Unknown5]: philosophy course noted

[Unknown6]: beauty requires everything

[Unknown5]: name requires every single student to take intro to philosophy and we do

[Unknown6]: you do have to home

[Unknown5]: it in lots of small sections but also a couple really big lecture courses and so i

[Unknown6]: so i got the

[Unknown5]: got the big lecture course and

[Unknown5]: originally i taught it the way that i had

[Unknown6]: or i

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: learned how to teach intro philosophy when i was a

[Unknown6]: right

[Unknown5]: graduate student which is

[Unknown6]: it

[Unknown5]: introduction to the philosophy major so you you do plato and aristotle and de cart

[Unknown5]: and kant and you do some logic puzzles like the liar paradox and you give them

[Unknown5]: exams and

[Unknown6]: and

[Unknown5]: uh and you hope they have a good time and that course honestly does not make a ton

[Unknown5]: of sense at noted in because every student is taking it and like two or three

[Unknown5]: percent of them

[Unknown5]: optimistically have any interest in taking more philosophy classes so you've

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown6]: right

[Unknown5]: like prepared them for something that they have no interest in continuing on with

[Unknown5]: and this after a few years start to really uh weigh on me around the same time my

[Unknown5]: baby brother went to college and so i suddenly became really personally invested

[Unknown5]: in like what happens to people in college' financially invested i paid my

[Unknown5]: brother's tuition so i

[Unknown6]: oh good for you

[Unknown5]: was like what is what exactly is going on for people in college

[Unknown5]: and uh talked with some colleagues here about what we were doing in intro and

[Unknown5]: basically

[Unknown5]: came to this idea that really wanted to have a big discussion in our intro courses

[Unknown5]: with students about

[Unknown6]: about what what

[Unknown5]: what the good life consists in advice

[Unknown6]: white they like

[Unknown5]: they might find useful from philosophers some of whom we'd already been studying

[Unknown5]: but we hadn't been introducing them under this mode of presentation like we've

[Unknown5]: been introducing plato as this dead guy who had crazy

[Unknown6]: no

[Unknown5]: views about like authoritarian governments and tripartite souls but we were kind

[Unknown5]: of under selling plato because he also has really relevant views about like how

[Unknown5]: hard it is to be happy in in a democracy which turn

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: out in like twenty sixteen to be a question on a lot of my students' minds

[Unknown6]: yeah very very relevant yeah

[Unknown5]: and oh my gosh so so i had some partners in crime here on campus and we basically

[Unknown5]: thought like let's try to blow up our current intro class and really think about

[Unknown5]: what it would mean to teach people about philosophy

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: or introduce people to philosophy

[Unknown6]: the water

[Unknown5]: as a way of life

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: and realize that there are a lot of other faculty all around the country who think

[Unknown5]: about similar questions and that was

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: really energizing i

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: find thinking about what

[Unknown6]: about what i want

[Unknown5]: i want to teach people about is a really good heuristic for me to think about what

[Unknown5]: i want to research myself because i that helps me get an idea of where the

[Unknown5]: interesting questions are and what i

[Unknown6]: i show

[Unknown5]: have to say about those questions and so that the

[Unknown6]: study

[Unknown5]: good life project really started

[Unknown6]: started thinking about what i wanted why go to my

[Unknown5]: with thinking about what i wanted to teach freshman at noted aim and what i wanted

[Unknown5]: my brother to be learning at brown that's where he went to college

[Unknown5]: and then

[Unknown6]: and it's really

[Unknown5]: it just grew really rapidly uh and now

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: you know i i think it's one of these really exciting intersection topics in

[Unknown5]: philosophy where there's an opportunity for really interesting new work in virtue

[Unknown5]: ethics and i wish a whole lot more graduate students were working in ethics right

[Unknown5]: now because i think

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: it's there are all kinds of fascinating questions

[Unknown5]: but there are the kinds of questions that you can study in the evening and then

[Unknown5]: the next morning go and teach a live studio audience and that's like that's the

[Unknown5]: joy of philosophy is

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: when you get that kind of synergy

[Unknown6]: yeah um

[Unknown6]: man and and i i personally and i'm looking for it and i i know that i haven't been

[Unknown6]: able to do like really scholarly research finding it but

[Unknown6]: those kind of answers or questions are just over the horizon with gene editing i

[Unknown6]: mean some of its already here

[Unknown5]: eight

[Unknown6]: gene editing and the digital landscape when you talk about like i mean for me some

[Unknown6]: of the best literature about what's gonna happen with like meta with facebook

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: yeah are like things from science fiction

[Unknown5]: y

[Unknown6]: you know and we have

[Unknown6]: so the idea of like embodiment

[Unknown6]: had dr richard kern on to talk about physical touch and that i mean that was

[Unknown5]: right

[Unknown6]: you know i and it was just kind of an introductory volume to the idea of it and

[Unknown6]: its just such a that idea of embodiment and what we're losing

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: in what we're gaining by these kind of digital presence is

[Unknown6]: it i it'd probably better if we thought about it beforehand before we just like

[Unknown6]: start messing with our neurochemistry

[Unknown5]: what

[Unknown6]: but you know so far we've decided to play ketchup so

[Unknown5]: i think about this i think about this all the time actually i was just at a

[Unknown5]: research seminar where i was listening to a paper by a political theorist who

[Unknown5]: works on how to

[Unknown6]: how do you want

[Unknown5]: make online fully online communities more democratic and like what

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: would it mean how if an online community is acting democratically but one thing

[Unknown6]: one thing i

[Unknown5]: i was that was going on in the back of my mind during the seminar

[Unknown5]: is how quickly in my adult lifetime the default has switched with respect to how

[Unknown5]: normal digital life is so i remember

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: when i was a college student you would have a class on like minds and machines

[Unknown5]: that the the professor would really have to argue

[Unknown5]: that you should think of yourself like a computer like that like that would be

[Unknown5]: something that would be really strange and like far out and the philosophy

[Unknown5]: professor would give you turing and give you readings to

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: try to convince you is more real than you think it is

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: and now kind of under the surface the default

[Unknown6]: somebody

[Unknown5]: is totally switched where i have to tell i have to try to argue students out of

[Unknown5]: the view that they're computers like

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: they really think of themselves as flush computers that move into different

[Unknown5]: software spaces and that

[Unknown6]: bit benefited and a bit bit minute

[Unknown5]: synchronize or don't synchronize with other computers and like it just seems like

[Unknown5]: the most natural thing in the universe for us to think of ourselves like as

[Unknown5]: digital lives as just being lives and

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: digital communities is just being the community that i'm part of and i'm a

[Unknown5]: computer that's located in south bend and and and just like when do that default

[Unknown6]: but

[Unknown5]: switch what were philosophers doing when that happened

[Unknown6]: yeah yeah i mean it it's really yeah i i i do feel like there's a huge gap in

[Unknown6]: what's coming and what we have prepared for so i think that's i mean that's part

[Unknown6]: of even what i hope to just bring more and more to the forefront with chasing the

[Unknown6]: vith and but i think

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: it it part of the reason i'm so interested in your work with uh time is i think

[Unknown6]: that that provides a slightly different

[Unknown6]: angle to view a lot of these things

[Unknown6]: so talk me through kind of the framework and your kind of argument and then we can

[Unknown6]: you know pursue more specific topics for your book time biases which if you want

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: you can show that cover you know the

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: convince people

[Unknown5]: available wherever fine books are sold

[Unknown6]: there you go

[Unknown5]: or from oxford university press and amazon

[Unknown6]: oh yeah

[Unknown5]: also kindle version uh

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: speaking of digital presence yeah

[Unknown5]: so the idea times is also i they came out of another classic nother name

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: uh eight years ago i was asked to teach this interdisciplinary class about time to

[Unknown5]: sophomores

[Unknown5]: and you can only really get away with like one or two weeks of teaching non

[Unknown5]: philosophy majors about the metaphysics of the passage of time before they totally

[Unknown5]: lose interest and hate the class so i i i felt a lot of pressure to get interested

[Unknown5]: in how like psychologists think about time and have people in

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: literature think about time and economists think about time and so i started

[Unknown5]: reading to try to find interesting things to to bring to class for us to read

[Unknown5]: together in

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: the seminar and then realized how many questions i had like i really wish somebody

[Unknown5]: had taught me about how

[Unknown6]: how

[Unknown5]: psychologists think about cross time trade offs when i was young because i would

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: have been really engaged by it

[Unknown6]: but

[Unknown5]: so the the premise of the book

[Unknown5]: is

[Unknown6]: and

[Unknown5]: there are

[Unknown6]: there are

[Unknown5]: two kinds of time biases which

[Unknown6]: hy

[Unknown5]: philosophers have been talking about since the ancient greeks

[Unknown5]: but

[Unknown6]: right separate

[Unknown5]: contemporary philosophers very rarely talk about in the same conversation

[Unknown5]: the first kind of time bias is one that is of interest to philosophers and

[Unknown5]: psychologists and economists and is constantly debated

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: and that is what we might call near bias and it's basically our tendency to care

[Unknown5]: more about events that are gonna happen

[Unknown6]: mm

[Unknown5]: sooner and to care less about events that are gonna happen in the more distant

[Unknown5]: future

[Unknown5]: and we

[Unknown6]: and hear about this

[Unknown5]: care about this because this near bias

[Unknown6]: it your by

[Unknown5]: predicts all kinds of seemingly bad decisions that we make

[Unknown5]: so one example that gets talked about all the time is like the marshmallow test

[Unknown5]: you know walter michel that very famous late philosopher from columbia university

[Unknown6]: um it is what they miss second experiment well

[Unknown5]: did this really famous set of experiments with four year olds where he

[Unknown6]: wear uh

[Unknown5]: he offered them one treat immediately but if they could wait and eat the immediate

[Unknown5]: treat after ten or fifteen minutes the experimenter would come back and give the

[Unknown5]: kid a double the treats like double the mms

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: double the marshmallows and

[Unknown6]: yep

[Unknown5]: they studied these kids in their ability who which of the kids decided to wait and

[Unknown5]: which of the ca kids decided tos the treat right away which of the kids are nearby

[Unknown5]: so much

[Unknown6]: nearby

[Unknown5]: of the kids are um

[Unknown5]: are more

[Unknown6]: more more

[Unknown5]: far sighted in their treat evaluations and then like followed those kids over time

[Unknown5]: and looked at their the ability to delay gratification in other ways and their

[Unknown5]: life

[Unknown6]: i have

[Unknown5]: outcomes and then we have this big debate about like how much you can predict at

[Unknown5]: age four the kind of adult that somebody's going to be all that you know all

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: that is just maybe familiar to listeners but that's near bias and

[Unknown5]: psychologists and economists are very interested in measuring how

[Unknown6]: a psychologist an economist i very in measure

[Unknown5]: near biased we really are and

[Unknown6]: how you're buying

[Unknown6]: and what mother

[Unknown5]: whether it depends on which kinds of decisions that we're making this is

[Unknown6]: this is really important the government

[Unknown5]: really important for the government to know for instance because

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: we want people to save money for retirement and we want people to invest in long

[Unknown5]: term schemes so that they don't

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown5]: they don't they don't become destitute

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: but how do you convince people my age i'm thirty nine to care about their sixty

[Unknown5]: five year old self you need to know how nearby they are in order to set set up a

[Unknown5]: system that's going to finance people's retirements philosophers have always been

[Unknown5]: interested in near bias because there's a big debate about whether it's ra it's

[Unknown5]: good or bad like

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: plato thought it's bad in the protos plato and progreso ogu or

[Unknown5]: socrates and pr having this dialogue about how should raise your kids

[Unknown6]: soccer

[Unknown6]: eight

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: that's

[Unknown5]: socrates tells his friend look

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown5]: we don't have fur we don't have sharp teeth we don't have a lot of natural

[Unknown5]: advantages as humans the one thing we have is our wits and

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: the most important thing we can teach our kids is how to be far sighted like how

[Unknown5]: to measure the the future potential future outcomes of their decisions now so that

[Unknown5]: they can set themselves up to be in favorable circumstances and live the good life

[Unknown5]: um and

[Unknown6]: and so

[Unknown5]: so plato came down really hard that you shouldn't be

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: biased towards events that are going to happen sooner you should try to

[Unknown6]: i think would be

[Unknown5]: cultivate far sightedness about your life but other philosophers like derek parfit

[Unknown5]: very famous philosopher in the one thousand nine hundred eighty seconds says why

[Unknown5]: that's sixty five year old megan is so freaking different

[Unknown5]: to thirty nine year old megan she's going to be significantly older she's gonna

[Unknown5]: have really different desires and interest

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: taste her body's gonna be quite different she is causal like related to me but

[Unknown5]: that's

[Unknown6]: that's about it why are the two

[Unknown5]: about it why don't i just give my money to sixty five year olds now that i care

[Unknown5]: about rather than hiding it in a stop

[Unknown5]: and like you know from the standpoint

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: of like you know what it means to care about the right kinds of things she she

[Unknown5]: could be another woman as far as i'm concerned and so far sightedness

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: is not shouldn't have the significance the plato thought it was so that's that's

[Unknown5]: near

[Unknown5]: bias now second bit which philosophers have been obsessed with since the greeks

[Unknown6]: de that's like

[Unknown5]: but psychologists and economists have only relatively recently become interested

[Unknown5]: in is what we might call future bias

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: and this is our tendency to care

[Unknown6]: you know a lot about

[Unknown5]: a lot more about what's happening now and what will happen in the future

[Unknown5]: then

[Unknown6]: and hearing about what it

[Unknown5]: caring about what has already happened and you guys again

[Unknown6]: can get over like

[Unknown5]: already like kind of know this don't cry over

[Unknown6]: fi

[Unknown5]: spilled milk

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: captures that captures future bias in

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: a single adage this idea of if there's nothing that you can do to affect something

[Unknown5]: that has already happened in your life

[Unknown5]: don't bother being

[Unknown6]: both

[Unknown5]: concerned about it there's nothing rational or irrational about somebody who like

[Unknown5]: wishes or doesn't wish that some horrible event had happened in their past

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown5]: if there if there's no way

[Unknown6]: no way and here that

[Unknown5]: that caring about some is some event could affect

[Unknown6]: exact

[Unknown5]: the decisions that you're making towards the future then it's not important

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: just a just a side note one of my favorite moments of my own life was my wife was

[Unknown6]: pregnant and she had a bowl of cereal that she really wanted and she took it out

[Unknown6]: in the car

[Unknown5]: yes

[Unknown6]: and she spilled it

[Unknown6]: in the car and she started crying and i should have felt worse than i did but i

[Unknown6]: couldn't help but really enjoy saying honey don't cry over spilled milk

[Unknown5]: that definitely that probably definitely made it worse i suspect

[Unknown6]: yeah it's like i i know i definitely yeah i but it was worth it for the pun like

[Unknown6]: it was worth it for the connection i was like i'm a terrible husband right now but

[Unknown6]: i can't avoid saying this like

[Unknown5]: yeah i mean it that's good

[Unknown6]: and then she started laughing so she was a good sport but yeah

[Unknown5]: i know it gets into this question about regret this is one of the things i

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: about in the book is like what how does a rational agent think about

[Unknown5]: um

[Unknown5]: whether she's now living up to preferences that she had in the past or whether she

[Unknown5]: regrets things that happened in the past and how in control do you feel like you

[Unknown5]: are of your life the greeks and romans thought about this question a lot

[Unknown5]: especially the epicurean and stoic philosophers um lucretius this very famous

[Unknown5]: epicurean philosopher thought the point of philosophy was to try to provide

[Unknown5]: therapy to people who are afraid of dying like one of

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: the biggest issues that we face is that we are going to die and we're distinct

[Unknown5]: from other animals and that we become aware of this and it terrorizes us and so

[Unknown5]: epicurus thought that one of the ways to get over your fear of death

[Unknown6]: no

[Unknown5]: is to stop being

[Unknown6]: stock

[Unknown5]: so future biased and he gives

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: this famous argument that we oftentimes think that death is going to be bad for

[Unknown6]: that was

[Unknown5]: us because there's

[Unknown6]: there

[Unknown5]: this all this great

[Unknown6]: all this break into the this hour i

[Unknown5]: future that we're going to miss out on we have this kind of fear of missing out or

[Unknown5]: fo so i think like it'll be sad when i die because i won't be able to watch any

[Unknown5]: shows on netflix or it'll be sad when i die because i won't be able to be with my

[Unknown5]: grandchildren or or like all these events that i'm not gonna get to

[Unknown5]: be a part of yeah totally are the courses through my mind

[Unknown6]: similar similar yeah yeah

[Unknown5]: but epicurus says look think about the fact that there was this huge epic of human

[Unknown5]: history before you were ever born that you

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: missed out on there were tv shows you didn't get to see in the seventies there are

[Unknown6]: there are five

[Unknown5]: family members that you did not get to visit with because you didn't

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: yet exist

[Unknown5]: that

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: doesn't cause you to wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night and need

[Unknown5]: your like safety blanket

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: so if you're not afraid of all of all of this stuff you missed out on in the past

[Unknown5]: you similarly ought not to be afraid of everything that you'll miss out on in the

[Unknown5]: future after your death and this is a way of kind kind of to use uh use to

[Unknown5]: identify future bias as an irrational bias and then say look if you can get over

[Unknown5]: this bias you can have a way of convincing yourself the death won't be so terrible

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: um so philosophers have been debating this for ages and psychologists and

[Unknown5]: economists less so but the point of the book is first

[Unknown5]: i think we

[Unknown6]: i think without moving my life

[Unknown5]: should think about both of these time biases in

[Unknown5]: as more similar

[Unknown6]: what's the word

[Unknown5]: than they are different

[Unknown5]: so if you think near bias

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown5]: is your rational some of those same arguments are can apply to why you think it's

[Unknown5]: irrational for somebody to not care about their past

[Unknown6]: because of

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: the way you conceive time is gonna affect both correct the w like

[Unknown5]: yeah uh i mean the main arguments that philosophers have liked

[Unknown5]: for why it's bad to be near biased or they fall into two categories first there's

[Unknown6]: like why is that

[Unknown5]: the old plato argument which is basically look if you're the kind of person who

[Unknown5]: cares more about the

[Unknown5]: nearby than the far away you're gonna make all kinds of bad trade offs and you're

[Unknown6]: nearby

[Unknown5]: gonna end up with a less good life you're gonna have a bad retirement you're gonna

[Unknown5]: fewer marshmallows it's just your life is gonna go less well

[Unknown5]: so that's

[Unknown6]: so that

[Unknown5]: the first kind of argument is like you

[Unknown5]: want a good life near bias is

[Unknown6]: like want get like w

[Unknown5]: going on the whole lead you to have a worse life so you should try to cure

[Unknown5]: yourself of your near bias another argument is this kind of

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown5]: arbitrariness argument which is just like

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown5]: when

[Unknown6]: we so good that that like about the

[Unknown5]: some good event is scheduled in your life t is arbitrary like it doesn't

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: matter if you're gonna get a marshmallow on tuesday or a marshmallow next

[Unknown5]: wednesday if if you're certain to get the marshmallow and the marshmallows is

[Unknown5]: going to be just as tasty to you whenever you get it

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: then you you just shouldn't care about what day of the week it is we might call

[Unknown5]: that an arbitrariness argument in its near bias and one of the tricks in the book

[Unknown5]: so the book has this structure the first

[Unknown6]: w

[Unknown5]: third is like reminding you that these are great arguments against near bias and

[Unknown5]: you really want to be the kind of person that waits for two marshmallows and you

[Unknown5]: really hate being arbitrary in your preferences

[Unknown6]: two ninety three

[Unknown5]: and then the trick comes the second

[Unknown6]: the second third

[Unknown5]: third of the book where i show that

[Unknown6]: so some were my good

[Unknown5]: similar kind of success and arbitrariness arguments apply

[Unknown6]: why not

[Unknown5]: to not caring about your past there are all kinds of way ways that people don't

[Unknown5]: care who don't care about their

[Unknown6]: about this now

[Unknown5]: past we'll make bad trade offs

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: and there are all kinds of ways that people who don't care about their past are

[Unknown5]: guilty of arbitrariness and so

[Unknown6]: and so

[Unknown5]: if you thought the first third of the book was making good arguments you should

[Unknown5]: think that we

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: have just as much reason to care about our past as we do our future which is

[Unknown5]: shocking to a lot of

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: philosophy that that's like the crazy twist because um why

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: on earth would somebody

[Unknown6]: ah

[Unknown5]: care just as much about pa

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown5]: things that have already happened as things that are going to happen and then the

[Unknown5]: last third thirty of the book is like what would it mean to live your life as

[Unknown5]: somebody who is temporary neutral and would it require this kind of crazy stoicism

[Unknown5]: like the stoics and the epicurean have all arguments about like once you realized

[Unknown5]: that once you read their philosophy you you're no longer bothered by the fact that

[Unknown6]: what you like used to want

[Unknown5]: you're going to die

[Unknown5]: other people's deaths doesn't even matter to you anymore like you know epicurus

[Unknown5]: himself has this horrible line where he's like you know when you're when you think

[Unknown5]: about how sad you're gonna be when your son

[Unknown5]: dies just think about like how sad you

[Unknown6]: di i

[Unknown6]: i w

[Unknown5]: were with the time you broke your favorite pot and this is just the same and so um

[Unknown5]: don't feel bad about it because you know like it's all it's all the same from the

[Unknown5]: standpoint of the universe that's crazy that's not a good life so i try in the

[Unknown5]: last third of the book to show out a temporary neutral person can still have a lot

[Unknown5]: of emotions

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: can have a rich emotional life can have a rich moral life but are just going to

[Unknown5]: think about some moral and

[Unknown6]: to

[Unknown5]: emotional and rational puzzles differently than somebody who leans into their time

[Unknown5]: biases but there you

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown5]: go you have to read the book you probably still

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: should but that's the spoiler

[Unknown6]: well so full disclosure

[Unknown6]: you know i i meet with a guest once a week and

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: so i saw the price tag for your book and i was trying to convince myself

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: i was so not really myself i would buy it but my wife coz i already buy like

[Unknown6]: several of the books that so i i download the sample i started reading

[Unknown5]: there

[Unknown6]: and one of the things that really uh you know i got a good feel for what you're

[Unknown6]: doing i think

[Unknown6]: but a big part of your argument for the past i can see it even as you're talking

[Unknown6]: about it what it was fascinating reading as far as i got you know

[Unknown5]: yes

[Unknown6]: but the

[Unknown6]: the idea of shaping preferences and how important preferences are to your argument

[Unknown6]: and i understand i'm just reading the

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: introduction can you talk a little bit more about what preferences are

[Unknown6]: because for me that was not confusing i could understand you're using i think in a

[Unknown6]: technical sense but it's hard not to conflate like preferences in like this like

[Unknown6]: moral decision making with like i you know i prefer my espresso without milk in it

[Unknown6]: and my wife likes to do like lattes right and

[Unknown5]: y

[Unknown6]: that's like

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: obvious obviously yeah yeah like like that's not a that's not an important

[Unknown6]: obvious obviously yeah yeah like like that's not a that's not an important

[Unknown6]: preference shape or maybe it is maybe maybe i i misunderstood

[Unknown6]: preference shape or maybe it is maybe maybe i i misunderstood

[Unknown5]: no this is uh this is also one of the major topics in this new love book that i've

[Unknown5]: been working on

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: what does it mean to understand our

[Unknown6]: are responsible

[Unknown5]: responsibility for our preferences our rational

[Unknown5]: responsibility or our moral responsibility for the preferences that we have and

[Unknown6]: what about you

[Unknown5]: there's

[Unknown6]: and piece of f

[Unknown5]: one camp of philosophers i think aristotle

[Unknown6]: the air

[Unknown5]: falls into this camp

[Unknown5]: who think that the point of ethics and the point of thinking about rationality is

[Unknown5]: to talk about whether

[Unknown6]: weather actually

[Unknown5]: actions or behaviors are moral or rational

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: but we can't we really can't criticize people's

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown5]: basic attitudes

[Unknown5]: basic attitudes

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: and certainly not we can't criticize their attitudes certainly not if they don't

[Unknown5]: and certainly not we can't criticize their attitudes certainly not if they don't

[Unknown5]: have any control over like acting on those attitudes

[Unknown5]: have any control over like acting on those attitudes

[Unknown5]: so

[Unknown6]: so you like

[Unknown5]: for somebody like aristotle if

[Unknown6]: it um funny

[Unknown5]: if you tell me pj that you are really happy that world war two happened like you

[Unknown5]: just think that's great that's part of like your you're for it um somebody like

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown5]: aristotle is gonna say

[Unknown5]: whatever man like you know that's like as long as as long as you can't do anything

[Unknown5]: to cause another war

[Unknown6]: war

[Unknown5]: or in a

[Unknown6]: was

[Unknown5]: time machine and like make sure that world war two happens as long as you don't

[Unknown5]: have any power to act on such a preference it's kind of indifferent from the

[Unknown5]: standpoint of morality

[Unknown5]: so

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown5]: the whole point of morality and rationality to talk about what people do and not

[Unknown5]: what people think

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: uh and i don't think that's right i think that like there's all kinds of

[Unknown6]: at

[Unknown5]: attitudes desires

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown5]: wishes that we have for the world that we might not be able to act on but they can

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown5]: be reasonable or unreasonable like i

[Unknown6]: like i

[Unknown5]: would totally love to have a conversation with you about if if you turn out to be

[Unknown5]: would totally love to have a conversation with you about if if you turn out to be

[Unknown5]: the guy who's like pro world war two i would love to sit down and unpack what your

[Unknown5]: the guy who's like pro world war two i would love to sit down and unpack what your

[Unknown5]: reasons are from having that preference because i think that there's something

[Unknown5]: reasons are from having that preference because i think that there's something

[Unknown5]: wrong with it

[Unknown5]: wrong with it

[Unknown5]: there's another group of philosophers and this is probably much more common in

[Unknown5]: contemporary philosophy decision theorists who who think that

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown6]: the pre

[Unknown5]: preferences are the thing that's

[Unknown5]: interesting

[Unknown6]: de

[Unknown5]: but the individual

[Unknown6]: but it

[Unknown5]: uh uh

[Unknown6]: uh foods desired

[Unknown5]: hopes or desires or wishes or preferences that an agent has we can't

[Unknown6]: i can't really c

[Unknown5]: really criticize we can only criticize their total packages of preferences so what

[Unknown5]: do

[Unknown6]: so what you by that

[Unknown5]: we mean by that well maybe you prefer chocolate

[Unknown5]: ice cream to vanilla ice cream and you prefer vanilla ice cream to strawberry ice

[Unknown6]: i would like the office

[Unknown6]: strawberries

[Unknown5]: cream

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: and those

[Unknown5]: two ice cream preferences or like you're just

[Unknown6]: like my

[Unknown5]: you just pre programmed with them there's no reason you have them you just like pj

[Unknown5]: comes into the world with those preferences but then you

[Unknown5]: tell me that you also prefer strawberry ice cream to chocolate ice cream so your

[Unknown6]: thank you tell me that you also for strawberry ice cream sa

[Unknown5]: preferences have this logical feature of being what what philosophers would call

[Unknown5]: intransitive so you

[Unknown6]: right

[Unknown5]: prefer vanilla chocolate chocolate strawberry strawberry to chocolate

[Unknown6]: sub

[Unknown5]: um uh you're in this like weird little loop where like if i'm your ice cream

[Unknown5]: salesman i can keep i can keep like selling you new kind of ice cream for a penny

[Unknown5]: and you would keep making the trade until i took all of your money from you

[Unknown5]: that seems irrational according to a lot of decision theorists so we can criticize

[Unknown5]: people's preferences based on like how they all stick together and the logical

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: structure that they have but the individual preferences are um beyond reproach and

[Unknown5]: i think that's also a little bit like shortsighted for the reasons i

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: just mentioned i think that again there's all kinds of preferences we might not

[Unknown5]: act on in their individual preferences that we think should be based in reasons we

[Unknown5]: think people

[Unknown6]: you think you better jobs

[Unknown5]: will do a better job when they've reasoned a little bit more about their

[Unknown5]: preferences we don't care

[Unknown6]: yeah you

[Unknown5]: you know i don't lose sleep at night discovering that no people don't have great

[Unknown5]: reasons for why they like vanilla ice cream over chocolate ice cream but if

[Unknown5]: somebody tells

[Unknown6]: somebody

[Unknown5]: me they just like

[Unknown5]: like

[Unknown6]: like something gen for the present united states

[Unknown5]: a certain gender for president of the united states and they don't like another

[Unknown5]: gender for being president and that's just how they programmed it's like vanilla

[Unknown5]: ice cream i just like men to be president i'm be like no we got to have a

[Unknown5]: conversation about that like that's the kind of preference that deserves like more

[Unknown5]: reasons and that's kind of arbitrariness that philosophers should criticize so in

[Unknown5]: the book

[Unknown5]: i lead off with talking about like let's think about our preferences as the kinds

[Unknown5]: of

[Unknown6]: the thing

[Unknown5]: things that we seek reasons for and as the

[Unknown5]: preferences are a bigger bigger part of our life we want better and better

[Unknown6]: and probably a big

[Unknown6]: better

[Unknown5]: reasons for even if we

[Unknown6]: even if you don't

[Unknown5]: don't exactly know how we're going to act on them

[Unknown6]: i but this is really important

[Unknown5]: and this is really important because one of the themes of the book is trying to

[Unknown5]: convince you

[Unknown6]: five six

[Unknown5]: that you should

[Unknown6]: five

[Unknown5]: prefer really good events to happen no matter when they

[Unknown6]: not a

[Unknown5]: would happen in your life and you should prefer bad events to happen no matter

[Unknown5]: when they would happen in their life so i want i want there

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: to be enough of a logical framework for

[Unknown6]: word

[Unknown5]: if you tell me pj

[Unknown5]: that

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: um suppose let's take one step back this will

[Unknown6]: back

[Unknown5]: sound a little wacky but suppose you have amnesia and you can't remember what

[Unknown5]: happened last month

[Unknown5]: and you have the

[Unknown6]: sounds about right

[Unknown5]: you have like two i fans and that's where we all are with covid um

[Unknown6]: well yeah go ahead sorry

[Unknown5]: yeah actually it doesn't even need to be amnesia suppose you're just

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: kind of like losing track of time

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: and you can't remember if you

[Unknown6]: you already did this very morning for that

[Unknown5]: already did this really boring project for work

[Unknown5]: or you

[Unknown5]: ha you have that boring project coming up

[Unknown6]: w have that point

[Unknown5]: you might

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: think that you hope you've

[Unknown6]: hope you've already done it

[Unknown5]: already done it and just forgot and it's it's already happened so you don't have

[Unknown5]: to still do it my view

[Unknown6]: why you

[Unknown5]: about being rational

[Unknown6]: rational

[Unknown5]: in uh in your thinking about time is that you should be totally indifferent about

[Unknown5]: whether you've already

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown5]: completed the boring project or whether the boring project is still coming up

[Unknown5]: holding everything else equal like your likelihood of finishing the project or how

[Unknown5]: much you'll get paid or whatever you shouldn't care

[Unknown6]: you take care that weather up out here

[Unknown5]: about whether a bad event is still going to be in your future are still going to

[Unknown5]: be in your past once the probabilities have come into account and to even ask that

[Unknown5]: question

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: it has to be fair game that you could have the wrong preference about a bad thing

[Unknown5]: that already happened to you and that you forgot like there has to be

[Unknown6]: that's enough one

[Unknown5]: enough logical space for me to even talk about you being wrong for wishing that a

[Unknown5]: bad thing had already happened so that's just kind of like setting things up so

[Unknown5]: the debate even makes sense and the opening part of the book is like we have to

[Unknown5]: talk about preferences in a different way if we're even going to start to

[Unknown5]: criticize people for their preferences about the past

[Unknown6]: y so uh and help me here because i'm tracking with you to me it seems very

[Unknown6]: intuitive that

[Unknown6]: people's preferences about the past

[Unknown5]: mm hm

[Unknown6]: are important right when you talk about the world

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: war two like that argument makes sense to me like if someone's like you know uh

[Unknown6]: it's a real shame that hitler uh lost you know it would be like like i mean i

[Unknown6]: wouldn't do anything

[Unknown5]: i know

[Unknown6]: about it today you'd be like i have a problem like

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: like i think everyone feels that revulsion right like

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: there is like we understand there's an immaturity uh i've seen memes where like

[Unknown6]: for instance people found early photos of joseph stall and they're like actually

[Unknown6]: he was a pretty good looking dude and i'm like you know i don't think that this is

[Unknown6]: the way that we should

[Unknown5]: you understood

[Unknown6]: like think about joseph stall you know welcome to the internet's a strange place

[Unknown6]: right and you know it's all like playing the

[Unknown6]: russian national anthem over memes and stuff like that like you know digital

[Unknown6]: marketing i keep up with this stuff right

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and it's like i you know uh it's it's very strange to see then how pe the same

[Unknown6]: people then turn and like oh wait this whole russia

[Unknown6]: ukraine thing's not so like oh maybe not so much

[Unknown5]: nope not

[Unknown6]: but then when you're talking taking about uh

[Unknown6]: kind of this intuition that i'm like for me it seems like really obvious that i

[Unknown6]: would have i i don't want to have to and maybe it's the the expectation

[Unknown6]: and me not dealing well with the expectation of pain that's often a large part of

[Unknown6]: the pain um

[Unknown6]: but uh if i have a bad project i would have hoped that would already be done right

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown6]: i'm like did i already do that annoying thing yeah

[Unknown5]: yeah that's that's that's why look is meant to be scandalous is then the

[Unknown6]: right

[Unknown5]: rest of the group is trying to convince you that you shouldn't feel

[Unknown6]: right

[Unknown5]: that way so let me give you i'll give you some arguments here's the parts correct

[Unknown6]: yes yeah yeah no that's i i follow with you right it to that

[Unknown5]: yeah now

[Unknown6]: point so this is obviously the point of the book i'm excited yeah

[Unknown5]: yeah it's not just a like setup of like this book is gonna say something

[Unknown5]: surprising because most of us think like yeah i totally wish the bad thing had

[Unknown5]: already happened and the good thing is still coming up

[Unknown5]: so

[Unknown5]: here's the

[Unknown6]: here's the first

[Unknown5]: first argument

[Unknown5]: let's suppose

[Unknown6]: what's a good

[Unknown5]: that you are the kind of person

[Unknown5]: who thinks it's important to avoid regrets and what do

[Unknown5]: i mean by this i mean that you're the kind of person that when you're making a

[Unknown6]: what do i mean by this i need that you the cri person

[Unknown5]: decision you take

[Unknown6]: you take into account how you

[Unknown5]: into account how your future self is going to think about the decision

[Unknown6]: about

[Unknown5]: that you made and you do this

[Unknown6]: you that don

[Unknown5]: so that you don't succumb to temptations i'll give you an example like pg let's

[Unknown5]: suppose that i'm not a drinker but let's suppose that i were you and i are out

[Unknown5]: for drinks after this podcast and i have a cocktail but i think it's pretty good

[Unknown5]: and i know if i have a second cocktail i'm not gonna be able to drive home and i'm

[Unknown5]: gonna regret it but the

[Unknown5]: waiter comes around and offers me a second cocktail and

[Unknown6]: but the around and

[Unknown6]: and

[Unknown5]: at the moment i know

[Unknown6]: i know that

[Unknown5]: that my future self will wish that i had not had the cocktail right now my present

[Unknown5]: self wants the cocktail and so i decide to get the cocktail even though i know as

[Unknown5]: soon as i consume it and forever after

[Unknown6]: never have

[Unknown5]: i will wish that i had not gotten the cocktail it seems at least rationally

[Unknown5]: permissible

[Unknown5]: for me to say when i'm offered a tempting thing like a second cocktail

[Unknown5]: even though

[Unknown6]: even though i wanted to

[Unknown5]: i want this now i prefer this now

[Unknown5]: i am

[Unknown6]: why not

[Unknown5]: not gonna take it because i know that in the future i'm gonna

[Unknown6]: i think that

[Unknown5]: wish that i hadn't taken it so

[Unknown5]: we can call that i call that principle weak no regrets it's just kind a principle

[Unknown6]: so all that i want

[Unknown5]: of saying like you're

[Unknown6]: for a while

[Unknown5]: allowed you're at least allowed to take into account how your future self is going

[Unknown5]: to think about the decision you're about to make so that

[Unknown6]: well that sounds really good that's a great place

[Unknown5]: sounds really good that's a great principle for avoiding drinking too much at

[Unknown5]: parties and generally

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: a great principle for realizing that you're an extended person through time who is

[Unknown5]: responsible to yourself in the future

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: well

[Unknown6]: you know overspending also a great example right

[Unknown5]: horrible idea um well that

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown5]: principle does not

[Unknown6]: go

[Unknown5]: play well

[Unknown5]: with future bias and here's why so pj

[Unknown6]: day

[Unknown5]: let's suppose you really love cookies i do love cookies um and i say p j i will

[Unknown5]: give you either a half a cookie right now

[Unknown5]: or if you wait three

[Unknown6]: we

[Unknown5]: days from now i'll give you

[Unknown6]: you do

[Unknown5]: seven cookies

[Unknown5]: more

[Unknown6]: forties

[Unknown5]: cookies are always better in this world

[Unknown6]: that i say

[Unknown5]: um so you can get

[Unknown6]: that sounds like heartburn to me but okay yeah i'm talking with you

[Unknown5]: it's kind of the this is like the reverse of walter michel's marshmallow test

[Unknown5]: marshmallow

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: tests you get more

[Unknown5]: oh no sorry flip it around sorry

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown5]: let's suppose i'm gonna offer you seven cookies right now or i'll offer you one

[Unknown5]: cookie seven days from now so this is the

[Unknown6]: come

[Unknown5]: reverse of walter me michell's test if you wait you get less

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: it seems obvious that you should take the money and

[Unknown5]: run like take the maximum amount of cookies sooner rather than later um you're

[Unknown6]: the money like that me see like

[Unknown5]: gonna have a better

[Unknown6]: a better way

[Unknown5]: life a more cookie filled life if you take that option but if you have a no if

[Unknown5]: you're a no regrets kind of guy and you discount the past you might give yourself

[Unknown5]: this following crazy argument if i

[Unknown6]: five three

[Unknown5]: wait and don't take the seven cookies right now

[Unknown5]: then my future self won't care cause my future self is only going to be excited

[Unknown5]: that he could get some cookies a week from now like even one cookie a week from

[Unknown5]: now he only cares about future cookies and so the fact that he could've gotten

[Unknown5]: seven cookies a day ago is something that he doesn't want to be in that world he

[Unknown5]: wants to be in a world where yes cookie still look forward to

[Unknown5]: so if i think my and i think as soon as you consume the cookies they're gonna be

[Unknown5]: in the past and you're not going to want them anymore

[Unknown5]: just like a temptation case where like

[Unknown6]: where like

[Unknown5]: as soon as i drink the second drink i prefer that i hadn't done it

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: uh

[Unknown5]: but unlike the temptation case it seems obvious

[Unknown6]: i that

[Unknown5]: that you shouldn't wait for fewer cookies you should just take as many cookies as

[Unknown5]: you can possibly get right now so either

[Unknown5]: the no regrets principle is wrong

[Unknown5]: or you should care about your past cookies like rational agents should keep track

[Unknown5]: of how many cookies they've already gotten

[Unknown5]: it seems obvious to me it's the second i mean there's lots of philosophers that

[Unknown5]: debate all the different logical like moves

[Unknown6]: mhm

[Unknown5]: that you could make in response to a puzzle like this but it strikes me that it

[Unknown5]: should be a requirement of rationality to you you keep track of the cookies you've

[Unknown5]: already eaten and you give yourself credit for having eaten them but that requires

[Unknown6]: so it's not a it's not a question of it's not a question of time it's a question

[Unknown6]: of maximum cookies

[Unknown5]: yeah just it just requires like being neutral with respect to your past cookies

[Unknown5]: like keeping those on on the books

[Unknown5]: so that's one argument is like you're going to end up not making silly silly trade

[Unknown5]: offs by keeping track of some of your sunk cookie costs

[Unknown5]: and that's an underappreciated point about rationality another really simple point

[Unknown5]: this gets us back to the old dead roman philosophers

[Unknown5]: let's suppose that uh i get

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown5]: a bad diagnosis from my doctor he says you've got a really serious

[Unknown6]: serious

[Unknown5]: um kind of tumor and you only have a year left to live

[Unknown5]: and i think oh my gosh this is a disaster i am

[Unknown6]: why do you speak

[Unknown5]: incapable of having a good life i have one year left and it's going to be a year

[Unknown5]: where i'm quite sick and i'm not able to do many of the things that give my life

[Unknown5]: value there's nothing to look forward to this is the worst news ever i ha like my

[Unknown5]: life is is ruined

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: that's a natural feeling but

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: you might think well there's another way of looking at it

[Unknown5]: which is

[Unknown5]: the way and the way the philosopher seneca would describe this is like by turning

[Unknown5]: around by if you have no good future left to look forward to you still have the

[Unknown5]: opportunity to contemplate the great life you've already had and maybe i spend my

[Unknown5]: remaining year reflecting on how wonderful existence has been so far and all the

[Unknown5]: adventures that i've enjoyed and the story that i'd like to tell of my life and

[Unknown5]: that's not going to be enough like that's you know that's not gonna make me feel

[Unknown5]: that much better about my disease but it's a way of me still understanding why i

[Unknown5]: have a valuable life and somebody like seneca would say it's totally arbitrary to

[Unknown5]: think that the only things that give your life value are future things there are

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: plenty of things in your past that have given your life value and we're all going

[Unknown5]: to come to some point in our lives where we're going to depend on those past

[Unknown5]: sources of value more than we could depend on our future sources of value and so

[Unknown5]: if you care about

[Unknown5]: being reasonable and paying attention to value that you ought to pay attention to

[Unknown5]: and be not arbitrary in your preferences then you should be the kind of person

[Unknown5]: that pays that is willing to pay just as much attention to good things that

[Unknown5]: happened in your past as you are good things happen in your future and i think

[Unknown5]: that part of the

[Unknown6]: it so

[Unknown5]: stoic project

[Unknown5]: is not crazy um it doesn't require you not caring or turning off your emotions or

[Unknown5]: any of the dumb caricatures of stoss we

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: ordinarily have it just requires like realizing that the past has

[Unknown5]: has value that we can tap using reason and that there are very well might come

[Unknown5]: times where we want to do that

[Unknown6]: well i think we see that a lot as people grow older they

[Unknown6]: they use memories in or they view memories as pleasurable right

[Unknown5]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and you do see like that seems a very natural human tendency

[Unknown5]: i think so and uh the way some one of the ways that some of the stoics talk about

[Unknown5]: this which also just totally resonates with me is this idea of a rational person

[Unknown5]: joining up their circles i think it's seneca that even uses this metaphor in a

[Unknown5]: couple places but this idea

[Unknown6]: this idea that

[Unknown5]: that people who are really living a good life

[Unknown6]: hy

[Unknown5]: devote some time to try to find the through line in their memories and in their

[Unknown5]: past bit to their story and in their future that they're hoping for and in the

[Unknown5]: life that they're currently living like they look

[Unknown6]: what pointing up

[Unknown5]: for joining up this act of like joining up all of the parts of their life even if

[Unknown5]: it's really weird you know it tells this twisty toney

[Unknown6]: expensive

[Unknown5]: adventure of wanting to be a lawyer and then discovering you're a

[Unknown5]: philosopher and then going to outer space

[Unknown6]: your loser

[Unknown5]: but like that that process of trying to join up yourself over time

[Unknown5]: is one of the ways in which we lead good lives and and i totally

[Unknown6]: h

[Unknown5]: believe that

[Unknown6]: so is that

[Unknown6]: like we compose like finally at the end of our lives we're composing a narrative

[Unknown6]: about how we lived and we're like we're seeing all the pieces come together is

[Unknown6]: that kind of a way of saying that

[Unknown5]: yeah i think so but but crucially and i spend some time on this in the book too

[Unknown5]: that doesn't necessarily mean that as we get older or get near the end of our life

[Unknown5]: we have to

[Unknown6]: that big

[Unknown5]: obey the plans and wishes of our past so

[Unknown5]: you can imagine

[Unknown6]: i actually i i'm sure sixteen year old you is still very disappointed you're not a

[Unknown6]: lawyer yeah that's

[Unknown5]: she so pissed yeah you would beg you like please kill me before i become a

[Unknown5]: philosophy professor i want to be a rich lawyer

[Unknown6]: oh yeah

[Unknown5]: what have you done it's super

[Unknown6]: oh man yeah

[Unknown5]: interesting no like yeah no you think

[Unknown5]: i know

[Unknown6]: i know a lot of kids

[Unknown5]: a lot of folks you imagine somebody who's been like a lawyer their

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: entire life i know a lot of happy lawyers but imagine you've got a lawyer somebody

[Unknown5]: who's really invested themselves in their legal career and at the end of their

[Unknown5]: life they have a chance to do

[Unknown5]: one more

[Unknown6]: one more

[Unknown5]: emeritus partnerships didn't and

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: that would seem to be very meaningful because it would play into this identity

[Unknown5]: that they've cultivated and the story that they've told themselves about their

[Unknown5]: whole life but they're just not feeling it anymore like they're happy

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: that they used to be a lawyer and now they want to just be a you know just hang

[Unknown5]: out with

[Unknown6]: hang out

[Unknown5]: their grandkids or and watch a lot of netflix and get involved in hobbies

[Unknown5]: like it's totally fine like it's fine for

[Unknown6]: where one of his drive actually

[Unknown5]: um you don't have to strive for a certain kind of external narrative coherence

[Unknown5]: it's not like we

[Unknown6]: series

[Unknown5]: have some genre that we're trying to write our lives into some philosophers think

[Unknown5]: that but i really disagree with that

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: it's more the rational agents pay attention to the things that have been valuable

[Unknown5]: about their past but also feel totally free to find new sources of value in their

[Unknown5]: future and time

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: bias says you can do that whereas other kinds of like more narrative histories

[Unknown5]: about the good life are also more restrictive like you got to as you get to the

[Unknown5]: end of your life you really have to stick to the narrative or stick to the story

[Unknown5]: and i don't think rationality

[Unknown6]: mm

[Unknown5]: should require that of us

[Unknown6]: so you're looking at yeah from that perspective you're looking for more coherence

[Unknown6]: out of your life's narrative and that's not necessarily the case

[Unknown5]: yeah i think that i think you can appreciate the value of events in your past and

[Unknown5]: in your future and look to try to

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: find a story that increate i mean you're living the story that incorporates all

[Unknown5]: that but you shouldn't try to force things into

[Unknown5]: into like an external genre so so imagine i

[Unknown6]: i have

[Unknown5]: i've been following uh

[Unknown5]: this really interesting phenomenon recently of elite athletes quitting their sport

[Unknown5]: like wondering you know his name may saka gonna quit she's clearly not enjoying

[Unknown5]: tennis anymore our

[Unknown5]: rational agents don't

[Unknown6]: wrestling is

[Unknown5]: think that because their past selves were really invested in a plan that fact

[Unknown6]: those things that his husband has

[Unknown5]: alone gives them a reason to keep doing it after they don't feel the the

[Unknown5]: preference anymore

[Unknown6]: e

[Unknown5]: that's the bad kind of honoring sun cost and i think maybe naomi should think

[Unknown5]: about a new career she's tennis is not doing it for her anymore

[Unknown5]: but she should also

[Unknown6]: but she said also

[Unknown5]: crucially realized

[Unknown6]: realized that she did get back from like the last few years

[Unknown5]: that she can go back and reflect on the last few years and find value in the

[Unknown5]: tennis

[Unknown5]: successes that she had in that period and just because they already

[Unknown6]: two thousand

[Unknown6]: they already

[Unknown5]: happened in her in her past doesn't mean that their value has in any way emptied

[Unknown5]: out and so that's maybe one distinction

[Unknown6]: yeah so and i want to be conscious of your time here 'cause i know that we're

[Unknown5]: yeah i think we got probably i got to hop off in just one minute or two

[Unknown6]: running up against it but

[Unknown6]: all right so i

[Unknown6]: with that all said

[Unknown5]: yes

[Unknown6]: how would you uh for our listeners the what are the big takeaways for to think in

[Unknown6]: this way to help them lead a good life i've given several good examples already

[Unknown6]: but

[Unknown6]: what were some good questions they can ask themselves

[Unknown6]: to maybe reassess am am i living with a time bias that's actually hurting my

[Unknown6]: chance of the good life

[Unknown5]: yeah uh i gave in the in the

[Unknown5]: seventh chapter of the book i start to lay out my practical advice which you guys

[Unknown6]: the seventh chapter

[Unknown5]: should always be nervous about taking practical advice from philosophers

[Unknown6]: that's so true

[Unknown5]: with the grain of salt but here are some practices that

[Unknown6]: hmm

[Unknown5]: i have taken up since i've started thinking more seriously about temporal

[Unknown5]: neutrality

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: first

[Unknown5]: the last two

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: years have been full of disappointment

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown5]: like i will be looking forward to a trip and then because of covid it will get

[Unknown5]: delayed by like a year

[Unknown5]: i

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: got a trip i was meant to make out to north carolina that i was so excited about

[Unknown5]: and it got delayed by two years

[Unknown6]: mm

[Unknown5]: which can just feel really devastating especially when it keeps happening

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown5]: temporal neutrality says uh i get frustrated because something i was looking

[Unknown5]: forward to gets pushed forward in time

[Unknown5]: recognizing that that frustration is kind of normal human response

[Unknown6]: wasp

[Unknown5]: we've been wired by

[Unknown6]: w

[Unknown5]: evolution to pay attention to things that are more certain and things that are

[Unknown5]: going to happen sooner or likely are more likely

[Unknown6]: more like

[Unknown5]: than things that are happening later but i can also

[Unknown6]: but i also

[Unknown5]: cause

[Unknown6]: on

[Unknown5]: myself to think

[Unknown5]: even though i might

[Unknown6]: not

[Unknown5]: feel frustrated that trip is gonna be just as

[Unknown6]: this is great why was

[Unknown5]: great for my life two years from now as it would have been next month

[Unknown6]: see

[Unknown5]: and i'll make myself think about what i'm gonna value

[Unknown5]: about that trip when it happens

[Unknown6]: value about thanksgiving

[Unknown5]: and

[Unknown6]: and i would be able to do myself

[Unknown5]: also be able to give myself like a rational story about why

[Unknown6]: i want

[Unknown5]: i have that still to look forward to even if i'm not feeling the anticipation

[Unknown5]: right now because my emotions just haven't caught up with my preferences

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown5]: um that's super helpful i think another thing that's really helpful

[Unknown6]: help

[Unknown5]: and this gets into the past discounting topic

[Unknown5]: is when things get canceled or you hit a kind of roadblock where you're not sure

[Unknown5]: what's gonna happen next in life and i think a lot of folks are in that situation

[Unknown5]: as now as well they just don't know what

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: look forward to anymore and

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: they're wonder and and they're burn out and kind of despairing because of that

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown5]: pa being getting rid of your future bias and cultivating an appreciation and

[Unknown5]: contemplation of the past can be extraordinarily helpful in those kinds of

[Unknown5]: stressful situations i think about another

[Unknown6]: christmas

[Unknown5]: stoic philosopher marcus aurelius who had like a stressful life there was a

[Unknown5]: pandemic he was fighting a war with the germans he was emperor of rome they had a

[Unknown6]: he didn't want

[Unknown5]: lot going on and there was massive uncertainty and he writes in the meditations in

[Unknown5]: his journal i keep wanting to go on vacation i'm like anybody else i really want

[Unknown5]: to like just have something to look forward to to go to a quiet restful place and

[Unknown5]: i realize that that's not available to me right now

[Unknown6]: three

[Unknown5]: but i i have to remind myself that i always have the option of going into my

[Unknown5]: memories and enjoying them and realizing

[Unknown6]: why

[Unknown5]: that no matter what circumstances i might be put in in life like you know stuck in

[Unknown5]: my basement zooming for twenty hours away from people i love not able to go to the

[Unknown5]: ocean or the mountains i

[Unknown6]: hmm

[Unknown5]: have cultivated this memories of being with these people of being in the mountains

[Unknown5]: and being in the ocean and those are part of my

[Unknown6]: part of my life

[Unknown5]: life and they're they're always there available

[Unknown6]: day

[Unknown5]: for reflection and appreciation and it's something that you try something you

[Unknown5]: carry with you and i think again those realizing that you have those kind of

[Unknown5]: practices to time travel back into your past to travel into your distant future

[Unknown5]: rather than the nearby future gives you a lot more freedom for enjoying aspects of

[Unknown5]: your life than you get if you're just stuck in this really narrow minded only the

[Unknown5]: nearby future matters

[Unknown6]: yeah no absolutely and i think that's a great way to end especially since i know

[Unknown6]: that you have another appointment

[Unknown5]: yes

[Unknown6]: but so i want to say thank you and i think that's super a very helpful way to

[Unknown6]: think about it so if you enjoyed today's discussion please like share and

[Unknown6]: subscribe so that someone else can hear it too

[Unknown6]: thank you so much for coming on

[Unknown5]: thanks bj this was awesome i'm looking forward to hearing it when it's all set

[Unknown6]: absolutely my

[Unknown5]: bye