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Each year in the US, more than thirty thousand new law school graduates enter a crowded marketplace, joining more than a million other attorneys in practice. It should come as no surprise that many find it difficult to stand out and be seen. Each attorney may take a different approach: spending a lot of time and money on websites and SEO; maybe lucking into a high profile case; or, I don’t know, perhaps… hosting a podcast. There’s no one simple path, but each approach offers its own invaluable lessons, and all necessitate deeply understanding your audience and successfully leveraging opportunities. In this episode, we highlight one attorney who has leveraged Instagram and other social media platforms to create opportunities for herself, and we explore how her experiences can help you build your own brand.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (01:00) - Meet Manny Fernandez
- (02:34) - Introducing Honor Williams
- (05:19) - Why New Lawyers Should Use Social Media
- (06:18) - Honor’s Social Media Tips
- (12:23) - Honor’s Content Strategy
- (17:36) - Host Takeaways from the Interview (Part 1)
- (20:19) - Overcoming the Fear of Content Creation
- (22:00) - What Should You Post?
- (24:27) - How to Grow Your Social Media Audience
- (29:03) - How Employers View Your Posts
- (31:17) - Host Takeaways from the Interview (Part 2)
Creators and Guests
What is ABA Law Student Podcast?
Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
Each year in the US more than 30,000 new law school graduates enter a crowded marketplace joining more than a million other attorneys. In practice, it should come as no surprise that many find it difficult to stand out and be seen. Each attorney may take a different approach. For instance, spending a lot of time and money on websites and SEO may be looking into a high profile case or I don't know, perhaps hosting a podcast. There's no one simple path, but each approach offers its own invaluable lessons. So today we're going to highlight one attorney who has leveraged Instagram and other social media platforms to create opportunities for herself and will explore how her experiences can help you build your own brand. This is the ABA Law Student podcast.
(01:00):
Before we get into today's subject, it's the start of a new academic year and here at the A lawsuit and podcast, that means it's time to welcome a new host onto the show. Emmanuel Fernandez, we're so excited to have you join us. Why don't you tell us a quick bit about yourself?
Enmanuel Fernandez (01:14):
Hey Todd, thanks so much. I am super excited to be here. I guess I'll start with where I'm from. I'm from South Florida originally I was born in Cuba, came to the US at a pretty young age. As an undergrad I did some coursework in engineering and artificial intelligence and that's sort of informed a lot of my interests now in law school and brought me to where I am. I'm a student at UNH Franklin Pierce that's in New Hampshire and we're kind of known for our intellectual property program here, which was one of the big draws for me, hoping to be a litigator someday. I am going into my two L year. So today's topic is especially relevant to me. I think this is at two L is kind of where a lot of students feel the pressure of standing out and branding and networking and learning all the different ways of standing out, especially during the dreaded two L job hunt that I'm kind of in the midst of right now. But yeah, it's a little bit about me. Super, super, super excited to be here.
Todd Berger (02:08):
That's great. Well it's great to have you Manny. And what is the mascot at the University of New Hampshire?
Enmanuel Fernandez (02:13):
So we are the University of New Hampshire Wildcats.
Todd Berger (02:17):
Well go Wildcats and go a a law student podcast and great to have you here. So obviously University of New Hampshire has a brand, I suppose, in the form of a wildcat, and you talked a little bit about how they were able to brand the law school as a place for IP work. Speaking of branding, we are back with Shay Rodriguez. Shay, great to have you here again for another year at the a a Law Student podcast and tying it back to branding. Why don't you tell us a little bit about who our guest is?
Chay Rodriguez (02:49):
Yes, I am really excited to speak about who I was able to interview this time around Attorney Honor Williams. She is going to kind of span the gamut, I guess intergenerationally also with the experiences that she talked about on this episode. I will not give it away, but some of you will be able to kind of date yourself with one of the places that she worked on. Her currently works at Blabbity, a technology and media company, minority owned. The owner is actually very young to have such a successful company and if you guys know anything about the company, Afro Tech, Blavity is the parent company of Afro Tech as well. And it has a spinoff of amazing companies that kind of crosses each other culturally, but adds to the conversation in a lot of places. Specifically Tech and Honor is an entertainment lawyer, but she also has over 80,000 TikTok followers, 22,000 Instagram followers and quite a few LinkedIn followers as well as you can imagine. And so she was able to give us a little crash course on how you can market yourself as a law student and it was totally fun talking to her today.
Enmanuel Fernandez (04:03):
Can I ask very quickly, which one did you find her on? Was it Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn.
Chay Rodriguez (04:08):
So I found her on, not LinkedIn, I'm sorry, Instagram, which is actually her favorite of the three. So I thought that was funny and then it was when I was prepping for the interview that I realized she had such a large presence on TikTok, so I didn't even know that. I just knew that from her experiences, how she marketed herself on Instagram. I was like, oh, she would be an amazing guest and how she just unabashedly is like, this is what I've done, this is what I'm doing. I think we could all probably use a little bit of that confidence to push ourselves and sell ourselves. So I was like, yeah, I definitely want to talk to her.
Todd Berger (04:44):
Absolutely. So it sounds like a really interesting guest. I know we really want to hear from her and obviously she's got a unique experience, but when you listen to the interview, there's a lot of things she talks about that like Manny said, are going to be relevant to those two Ls, those three Ls thinking about how you're going to market yourself and grow your brand when you go out there in the world.
Chay Rodriguez (05:03):
Yes, for sure. Those four Ls as well, Todd, let's not forget.
Todd Berger (05:08):
So this is for all you two Ls, three Ls, four Ls, and we'll let the one Ls listen to and anyone else. So let's get into it.
Chay Rodriguez (05:19):
Why do you think it's important for new lawyers to focus on using social media?
Honor Williams (05:25):
Most of the time since people are coming out of law school, they're younger and so a lot of companies are now transitioning, so doing more Instagram based, more TikTok based, more things on social media and unfortunately the legal field is more conservative, so a lot of your seasoned attorneys do not understand these platforms. So they're hiring younger attorneys that have an understanding of these platforms and therefore are able to translate to older attorneys and understanding, hey, I understand that these are your traditional forms of content distribution, but these are the newest ones and they really are valuing younger attorneys that have this insight. So I definitely encourage all younger attorneys to use social media, not necessarily if you don't have to go the influencer route, but most definitely use the platform, understand it to be able to make yourself more marketable to the legal field.
Chay Rodriguez (06:19):
I'm looking at your bio on Instagram when we talk about marketing ourselves, it seems like from internships to your current role with Blavity, your Instagram profile highlights only a few of the professional legal positions that you've held. Why did you pick those roles to showcase in terms of marketing what you want to do and bring to the legal field and how you want to work?
Honor Williams (06:46):
Most of my answers are going to be tailored to the entertainment business and attracting those that are entertainers and in the business. So when I go to a networking session in entertainment, they're asking for my Instagram and so traditionally when you're in the legal field, they ask for your LinkedIn and they go to your LinkedIn and see your current profile entertainment, they're going to your Instagram and seeing that. So first and foremost, I put currently where I am because that's what we use for marketing and then also I mentioned my other experiences that give me some type of boost or allow people to understand I am an expert in entertainment based on my other experiences and especially I post that I'm a member of the Recording Academy, which makes me more of a music professional. But also my other biggest accomplishment was that I was a former White House intern for former First Lady Michelle Obama, which gives me more expertise in my field, but also allows people to know, have my snapshot of who I am and the most simple answer. I have a character limit so I can't put most of my things there
Chay Rodriguez (07:46):
Anyway. When did you realize that you were going to use social media to boost your professional presence online?
Honor Williams (07:53):
Really in law school I really gained a lot of traction just posting my internships on social media and then entering the entertainment space. During my one out summer I got an internship at the Recording Academy, and so this was the first time I was in the entertainment industry and really networking with high level entertainers in a more professional setting. Of course, I interacted with entertainers at the White House, but I was in a temporary position as an internship there that only lasted five months, but the recording Academy allowed, my internship lasted for two years, so I really got firsthand experience networking with entertainers and they used Instagram, so I knew if I wanted to attract higher level people and true professionals, I needed to have a following. And so I really just pushed promoting that internship, promoting my experience. Even later, I interned at Viacom that summer and I used my Instagram to help promote that internship. So I think being first time in entertainment and knowing this is how they network and I want to be taken seriously, I need to push developing my social media presence.
Chay Rodriguez (08:58):
You really see millennial attorneys using social media to one document their lives. So you'll see a lot of day in the life of me as a corporate attorney or you'll see that they want to show that they're subject matter experts and attract either a client or a particular employer. Is there any difference you think when you see how the two different types of influencers approach posting?
Honor Williams (09:24):
Yes, most definitely. So more of my corporate girl is the tagline. They are more conservative. We don't know where they work, we don't know anything about their specific clients, and we really just have a generalization to all of my corporate girlies as opposed to me that's in entertainment, that is actually doing influencer contracts, that's actually promoting the company on social media. You see a little bit more disclosure at where I am in a more personalized perspective. Of course, you always abide by your confidentiality roles of your employer, but I definitely see more of the day in the life of the corporate or more, this is generally what I do versus those that are more into the entertainment from my perspective that disclose a little bit more.
Chay Rodriguez (10:09):
Which do you think or do you think one or the other is more or less valuable to whoever is watching? Or do you think it kind of depends on the audience?
Honor Williams (10:18):
Definitely depends on the audience. I think younger law students and people earlier in their career need to understand that going to big law firms like growing more corporate, you are dealing with more conservative lawyers that don't see the value in social media because they've been working on the traditional framework that has worked for their business. So those entering that space need to understand that. And also for people that are more dealing with more personal floor, more in entertainment, you also need to know how to navigate certain lines or certain industry things that aren't really taught in law school. So absolutely
Chay Rodriguez (10:52):
You seem to use social media to not only encourage and motivate, but what you were saying, you can also use it to attract an ideal employer even though working with Blavity, I'm sure you love it there, so you're not necessarily hunting around. Can you go into detail about how you choose to post on LinkedIn versus TikTok? And I say that to say before you get started is I did go on your TikTok and I saw how you were able to talk about, hey, this is how I got this position at the White House, this is how I was able to move into this sector. So you seem to use TikTok as a way to not only showcase your experiences but also teach and then it's like on LinkedIn, I know that's more so for those professional connections. So can you go into detail about just how you choose to post what on those two platforms?
Honor Williams (11:44):
Absolutely. So TikTok is, I know my audience is younger, so I'm breaking things down in a very logical way. I feel like I'm teaching, so I use my three point method for everything on TikTok just because I know it's for younger people. I try to do things in threes as much as I can, just that's easier to remember. But on LinkedIn, I know my audience is older and so an employer I know that they just want to hear key points. Are you truly in the industry? What have you learned at previous experiences? And then going forward, how are you a subject matter expert? It's really what I post on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is more pushing myself, TikTok is more I'm teaching. What is that kind of three point method that you just referred to that you use on TikTok? I try to do, so these are the top three things. I do X, Y, and Z or I do three part series like that. I haven't stuck to it, but when you see my notes, it's like top three, this top three, that top two thing. Just I think it's easier to understand when I'm looking at a video. I also, you have a short attention span. People don't want to sit and listen to a long list, so I try to do three as much.
Chay Rodriguez (12:50):
Actually I think that's a really good point. Regardless of the fact that we're in law school, we're reading these really long cases, we have short attention spans. So it's interesting how that plays into social media and still a reality for us, even though law school is demanding that we do have this extended amount of time that we focus on certain things
Honor Williams (13:12):
And most people remember the first and the last thing you said. So I usually try to make my biggest point in the beginning and then my second biggest point at the end and in the middle is kind of just I need to tie it over.
Chay Rodriguez (13:24):
That's a really good point. On your social media, you dive into certain experiences to show what and how you've navigated through different industries. IE your time with Sony and even with Sony Orchard, and even though I know we talked about you're in the entertainment industry, it's still a little different going from the Recording Academy to a record label to Blavity, how much strategy played into that decision to showcase your maneuver from those different tiers of entertainment, but also as you were going from the White House and transitioning into an entertainment legal role that was more in your face, how much strategy played into, okay, this is how I'm going to connect my experiences and tell this story on social.
Honor Williams (14:10):
It really wasn't a strategy. I'm just being myself. This is my journey. So I'm originally from Washington DC and so growing up if you wanted to be an attorney, you went into politics. I quickly learned that unfortunately politics is not really the realm I wanted to go. It was really through my intern at the White House, I really saw how much former first lady married her initiatives with entertainment and using an entertainer's platform to really push her initiative. So that kind of solidified why I wanted to go into entertainment. And then the rest is really just, this is a job I got, so I'm just telling you this is what I really, it's just being authentic. It was really no strategy. It's just sharing, this is what my path was. I applied for a bunch of jobs. This is the only one that called. This is the only one I got. So here's my content. This is the job I have right now. So there's no really strategy behind it. It's just me being authentic to who I am, and this is actually my journey. There's no real strategy to it.
Chay Rodriguez (15:10):
And that I think is a big question that I did have for you. Do you struggle with being authentic on your channels and in what ways do you think law students can explore how they want to develop their online personas still being professional and still being true to themselves?
Honor Williams (15:26):
I don't think authenticity is really the issue. I don't work with a professional crew. I don't have a professional staff. A lot of influencers that you see with higher following counts, they have a staff with them, they have videographers, they have photographers. Me, it's really just my phone and me capturing the content myself. So I have no choice. This is what's on my phone, this is what I'm posting, but my biggest issue is what to publicize and what to keep private. I think it's the biggest issue that I really have, especially the legal field is conservative. So some of the things I'm like if I'm interviewing for a job, it will never go on social media. And I also try to keep friends and family as well that don't have large followings and don't aspire to be influencers off of my social media as well. So kind of showcasing this is the industry event that I'm at, but also not showing, okay, I'm with this person or I'm interacting with this employer. So that's really kind of what do I publicize and then what do I keep private is the biggest issue that I have.
Todd Berger (16:28):
We'll be right back. So Manny, after listening to the first part of Shay's interview with Honor Williams, what were your big takeaways? Anything you were surprised about?
Enmanuel Fernandez (16:45):
Yeah, I got to say there is this sentiment among probably people in law school and young lawyers that when you go out there into the workforce and you're maybe working at a firm or wherever you might end up that whoever the old guard is, the folks who are already there are going to expect you to know. Social media, I think it's not really a part of law school education, but knowing how to use tech and social media and understanding the ins and outs of social media marketing is becoming a greater thing because I think even the people who are kind of more old school are kind of understanding the importance of it. So I found that to be kind of an important theme, but also what was striking to me was honor mentioning how she's marketed herself on LinkedIn and she knows the difference between her audience and she also markets herself on TikTok, which you would think, what's the point of me marketing myself on TikTok to younger people as a law student, I would say, am I going to find a job on TikTok? But you never really know, and I guess diversifying your brand is certainly a thing. So I mean, this is someone who's certainly had a ton of success with branding and definitely knows what she's talking about.
Chay Rodriguez (18:01):
Building off of what you said, Manny, something that's important for you to know if you're going to take this up in terms of branding yourself is like, do I even care honor? This kind of seems like an attachment to her mission that yeah, I'm going to push myself on LinkedIn and promote myself on LinkedIn to have a job, but on TikTok, to your point, Manny, because that is a younger audience, I'm going to use this tool to teach, so I'm going to use this tool to maybe it doesn't really matter to you that I interned for Michelle Obama, but maybe it matters to you how I got that so that you can get an opportunity similar to so as a two L or three L, maybe you don't necessarily have the desire to be a mentor, so maybe you're like, I can skip out on branding myself on TikTok right now while I'm in the throes of school and really just focus on the LinkedIn piece because I need to get a job.
(19:01):
Or maybe I'll just focus on the Instagram piece because I want to show myself as a certain type of lawyer and that will allow me to take advantage of video trends and things like that, even though I know LinkedIn has video now, but that will allow me to diversify my content and I can do it like that and I'll focus on TikTok maybe my three oh year, my four oh year when classes have died down, and I can really walk my followers through things that I've accomplished over these last four years. So I think you're absolutely right when it comes to getting to know your audience, it's almost like you have to get to know yourself first and your own desires, and then you can be like, okay, this is how I want to tackle this social media part of it all.
Enmanuel Fernandez (19:40):
Yeah, absolutely. Amazing point because it goes, and that also speaks back to that theme. That's always a conversation that always comes up where you devote your time in law school and we spend a lot of time reading. We spend a lot of time doing this and that, but it's certainly important to spend time maybe even on social media, which is what's great about this conversation, but you definitely need to know how to partition your time and you're totally right. Being at different points in your life and understanding what your goals are is key to that.
Todd Berger (20:09):
Terrific. Let's get back into the second part of our interview with honor. Really excited to hear what you have in store.
Chay Rodriguez (20:19):
Selfishly, and this is clearly why I'm not an influencer, so scared to whip out and fill out my phone. When do you say to yourself, if you're at an event, okay, this is the time to whip out my phone and record and it won't look off or be offputting to someone who's either going to come up to talk to me. I think at this point we've all been in events where we're just like, oh, it's phone time now. Everyone has pulled out their phone. When do you know that that is the time? It's now time to do that?
Honor Williams (20:51):
It definitely was cringe worthy at first, but I think it's over time you become comfortable with being the person that's recording content. I have my tripod and I will pull out a tripod. I take it, you fold it up, I'll whip it out, I record it. So I mean, you get over it and you realize that it's better to have content and for people to resonate with people than for the embarrassment that you have in these one, this five minutes, and most likely if you post content for the event, another attendee is going on TikTok to watch it anyway. So yes, you may look at me weird in person, but I bet you you're going to watch it as soon as I post it. So I think it's kind of a, you have to internally understand that the embarrassment for 30 seconds is not as embarrassing as you think it is because it has such a greater impact in the future. You're going to see that this five minutes of embarrassment in person really helped hundreds and thousands of people in the future. So really the pros outweigh the cons in my opinion, and it really took over time building up the confidence not to care.
Chay Rodriguez (22:00):
As you were talking, I started to think on the kind of flip side of that. When do you know when to pull out your phone to capture something that your audience is going to want to see? What kind of goes off in your mind as someone who's now a pro at creating content like, oh, my audience will like this. The aspiring lawyers that watch me will like this. The other law students will like this. Those in the legal field that want to get into entertainment law, they'll want to see this. When do you know that? Or do you get a feeling? How do you know what to
Honor Williams (22:31):
Capture? I remember back to when I was a law student, what did I want to know? There were so many questions that I had and I grew up, I went to the law school where there weren't influencers. So it's really capturing content back. What I remember all the time I spent Googling and searching that I couldn't find knowing, okay, this was a question that I had during law school, so let me record content that post the answer. So I think it's really just diving within and remembering my previous experience and knowing the questions I had that really tailors to what content to record.
Chay Rodriguez (23:05):
Do you use a content calendar?
Honor Williams (23:07):
I don't. So that is something I have it downloaded, but I think that's the biggest issue that I have is consistency and making sure that I'm posting content on a regular schedule. Right now, it's kind of, okay, I'm at this event, let me post this event. But I think me going forward or growing my following, I need to be more consistent and to actually start using one. So I have the template on my laptop, but I'm being completely transparent. No.
Chay Rodriguez (23:34):
Okay. You know what? I think so I know people have like, okay, a new year is starting. I'm going to do it for the new year. I think every Monday is almost like a new year and you can make the promise to yourself. Maybe next Monday you'll try to start using a content calendar. I totally believe in you and I think you can do it. Thank
Honor Williams (23:55):
You. I appreciate, I appreciate that. Okay. I don't know about this Monday, but we going to start October the first, Monday, October. I got you. I'll email you and say, okay, it's up. I post this stuff here. I say, let's go do it, and I'll follow up with
Chay Rodriguez (24:12):
It. Yes, the first Monday in October, definitely let me know. And then the last Monday in October, I'll be like, so honor, are you still on it or did you ditch the calendar
Honor Williams (24:21):
Because you inspired me? I'm going to stick to it. I'm a do. I'm going to do it. Okay,
Chay Rodriguez (24:26):
I'm going to stick to it. What do you think was the one piece of content or story that attracted the majority of your following?
Honor Williams (24:35):
So I hinted earlier that I gained a lot in my following during law school. That's really where I saw, I think I started at 4,000 when I started law school, and I think I graduated close to 15,000. It was really just my internship experience when I was an intern at Viacom, which is now Paramount, I was a business and legal affairs intern for MTV and VH one and the intern office allowed interns to do a day in the life content. So I got to take over Viacom's Instagram for that day, and so I literally walked my followers through my entire day. So I started in my apartment that morning. I went and I showed, at the time TRL was a show, so I walked people down to the set so you could tear out, filmed in our basement. I was like, okay, this is the show that we're watching.
(25:23):
I'm sitting in the audience. Then I went to Crafties to really show 'em these are the snacks that all the guests get to watch. Then I went back to my desk, I showcased my boss, I showed my desk what I was working on. I was show where I went for lunch. I showcased other members of my team and I showed them at the end of the day what I really did in that day. And I think having people just to see, okay, this is firsthand. I had never seen, this was prior to TikTok. I had never really seen a day in the life of a legal intern, an entertainment legal intern. So not only showcasing that, I got a lot of following from that, not only because it's also MTV, but also because the network official Instagram reposted that content too. So I really got a wider audience for my content for that to the X, Y, and Z and P posts about this. Also, people do know me from social media, so I do TMZ Live. I'm in my free time because of that. I have a lot of viewership or being asked to speak on new panels because they've seen clips on my social media. So definitely the perks are attending events with higher level entertainers, having media bites, and then having more speaking engagements from that.
Chay Rodriguez (26:34):
This last question here, it will help students that are attempting to build their own following, knowing what you know now, and I will say that I did get this question from another interviewer. I don't know if you're familiar with Complex and Speedy Mormon, but he had asked this question to a YouTube guru and I was like, that's a great question. Knowing what you know now, if you lost all of your followers tomorrow, how would you strategize and use social media to rebuild your following?
Honor Williams (27:04):
First, I use that content calendar. Consistency is key. I think one people value, I would start over. Usually I feel like a lot of the things I did were very, making sure I looked perfect. I would start by just being very authentic and just record as I go, and I would really just show you raw footage. I would start over and then posting every day, posting, okay, this is raw. I woke up this morning not worrying about, okay, I have to wait till my hair is that I have to wait till my makeup is on. I would just really authentically just start recording raw footage and posting it every day and then using my insights to know, okay, I've been posting consistently for a month or two months. Let me look at my insights. My audience is really from 25 to 30, okay, I am in that age group. What do I want? And then tailoring my content to really fitting that or knowing, okay, I have more male followers and more female followers. Okay, I am in this demographic. What would I would do? And then really tailor my content to that. So I would say showing a lot more raw footage, being a lot more consistent, and then focusing a lot more on my insights to really tailor my audience over time.
Chay Rodriguez (28:16):
I think the market has changed a little bit since you started back in that the teens era, the 20 teens era now that we're in the twenties. So how long would it take do you think, to rebuild and get back to the numbers that you're at
Honor Williams (28:29):
Now? I would say I would give myself a year, a year or two or two just because this isn't my full-time job. I'm still an attorney during the day, and so I would say now also I have more resources. So I would hire a team. I think I just don't have the time as I did when I initially started, I was a law school student. Yes, I was rigorous, but I wasn't as demanding as my career. So let me add that to it. I hire a team, I hire just a photographer or videographer to actually record it and edit and then post it. So I would say I'll give myself a year or two
Chay Rodriguez (29:03):
Professionally. Do you think that employers are looking at the content that young lawyers are creating and that's something that they're thinking, okay, I want this person to come to my firm and add to their culture or come to my company and add to our culture because of what I see on their channels. Do you think it's a competitive advantage over some older attorneys who may not be as into social media?
Honor Williams (29:31):
So first I'll speak. I've never spoken with an employer regarding this,
(29:35):
But also I would say in entertainment, I can at least speak from an entertainment perspective. There are jobs now that are making you disclose if you're an influencer, and I haven't seen the ramifications of that to know whether that's a positive or a negative. But I will say if you are going into the entertainment space, you will have to disclose that you're an influencer. But also, I really haven't spoken enough from employer's perspectives to let you know right now whether it's a positive or a negative and from my own perspective, but I'll absolutely say in entertainment is definitely a positive. Having a high name at your company, it means that you have their entire following is now knowing your company. So I'll absolutely say it is definitely a positive of hiring an influencer and speaking in the entertainment realm. But once again, I also want law students to know legal field, especially your big law firms are very conservative, so they don't want necessarily those that have high following just because it could create a conflict of interest. If you're doing brand deals and promoting other companies on your influencers, and we hire another client that is their competitor, it doesn't look good for us that we have a conflict of interest. So it's really just knowing what industry you're going into and they're researching your employer and researching what type of clients they're hiring or that they're working for to know whether your following would be a positive or a negative.
Chay Rodriguez (31:00):
That is some amazing advice to end on. Thank you so much, attorney Williams. I appreciate you for sitting down with the lawsuit and podcast today.
Todd Berger (31:09):
We'll be right back after this. So Shay, a lot of great stuff. In your second part of your interview with honor, a lot of really good tips in terms of how to effectively use social media and some things from her about how she sort of grows her brand as far as what she was talking about and what our listeners might be hearing. What do you think are the points worth emphasizing?
Chay Rodriguez (31:34):
Don't take yourself too seriously, whip out your phone. Start recording if this is your thing. If you want to build a brand via social, don't be afraid to pull your phone out and start recording the things that you're going through. If you think it's interesting and your audience wants to see it. I personally, I just can't do it. I'm very too cool for school. I am very prior to this and prior to law school, what a lot of people may or may not know, if you search me on YouTube, you'll probably stumble into it. But I used to interview a lot of rappers in Atlanta, and so the vibe was always like, don't be a fan. Don't be always pulling out your phone. And so I just have this notion in my head, I'm not just pulling out my phone to record something at random.
(32:27):
People are going to be looking at me, why are you not in the moment? Why are you not soaking in everything? So I have a hard time with this, and I literally just had this conversation with a friend the other day and were just like, yeah, just got to do it. You'll get over it. And I'm just like, no, I can't. It's very awkward to me. So I love that honor was just like, Hey, after a while, it's just second nature and you know what your audience wants to see, almost as if it's quick and painless. I don't know if you guys got that vibe from her when she was describing it, but like, Hey, it's cooking painless. Whip your phone out, take your content, put your phone back. No one's even looking. What did you guys think of that?
Enmanuel Fernandez (33:06):
I mean, there's some people at my law school who will do it in class. We have a few who are toing in class and they'll pull it out in lecture and just get everybody on tape. And I'm like, oh, it's a little cringe. But at the same time, I guess part of that makes a good lawyer, I suppose. Just not being shy and being able to, but no, I agree personally, I can't do it. I'll find other ways to brand myself and other ways, and I'll take her advice and I'll get on social media because actually for a young person, I'm kind of a grump. I don't use social media as much as I should. And after hearing honor, I really can see the value. But the pulling the phone out in a public place can't. I'm sorry. I don't think I can either.
Todd Berger (33:54):
No, apart from sort of social media and maybe even including different parts of social media, people do other things to brand themselves. They may just not realize it. So you can podcast for example, or you can write books or you can do different kinds of speaking engagements and different things. So I know I do that. I mean, I know I am on this podcast I write, so there's definitely ways in which even if I'm not on social media, I'm out there trying to advance my brand. What about the two of you?
Enmanuel Fernandez (34:26):
I actually want to say, I think we all are doing branding. We all, not just the three of us who are here, but everybody who is in this profession is branding whether they like it or not, whether you're doing it on social media, you are building a brand for yourself. To me, a brand is just how people perceive you and whether your brand is, I just want to be left alone and read my books and don't cold call me ever. That's your brand. That's who you are. I think it's just something that you can't get away from. And so it's up to you to take control of your brand and decide how you want others to perceive you with as much as you can do as possible to control that. So it's really important to recognize that this is not something that is exclusive to the social media sphere. People have been branding forever since before social media existed. And so it's important. It's important to know who your audience is, and it's important to know kind of who it is that you're trying to impress or not impress who it is you're trying to attract or not attract. It's supremely important to understand that branding happens no matter what. So it's up to you to just grab the bull by the horns or take the reins.
Chay Rodriguez (35:36):
Even having a small presence on social is important for people who might want to get in touch with you. Todd, if you remember last year, we were going back and forth when we were trying to build that last episode on protests and freedom of speech and things like that. And I was like, oh, professor Josh Blackman, which I know people will probably be like, why did you want to interview Professor Josh Blackman? But I knew him from all of his YouTube videos. I had seen some things on the news. I had seen some things on Twitter, and regardless of where he was coming from, I knew automatically that he would make a dynamic conversation about the topic because I had seen his work in so many different places via social, the news, YouTube, the man taught me law contrary to what my professor might think.
(36:29):
So I knew Professor Josh Blackman. Oh, we have a line to him. Oh, let me contact him quickly. And how was I able to find that? The website, his Twitter, you know what I'm saying? I was able to just find him quickly, reach out. We weren't able to get him, but he responded and was like, oh, yeah, and I would love to come on whenever, when it's not that kind of crunch time of a time. So also think of it as social media is an amazing way for someone to Google your name really quick and find you, but it's your responsibility to make sure that whatever content that they find is what you want to represent yourself as, and you can take that forward into the next parts of your life.
Todd Berger (37:04):
Absolutely knowing your audience, catering your content to who you want that audience to be,
Enmanuel Fernandez (37:09):
And branding certainly shows to people that you're accessible. The image that you're putting out is going to affect what people reach out to you and what people surround you and what you eventually will be able to do. I mean, honors story is such an amazing one because it's all about how her branding led to more branding stacked on top of branding, which opened more opportunities that gave her more chance to keep branding herself, and it just was just this upward trajectory, but she had to start somewhere. And so I think that's what makes it such a truly great story and such a great masterclass in how to brand yourself and how to use technology, social media positively in a field that is often very uptight and serious.
Chay Rodriguez (37:52):
And as we get started within this school year, I think it's a great way for students to refresh their profiles on LinkedIn, refresh their bios across social. If you want to put in it, Hey, I'm president of this organization, or, Hey, I'm working on this paper with this professor, or I'm doing this independent research project, or I'm interning here. This is literally your reminder. Stop listening to us. Come back, but stop listening to us right now and go update your bio really quick. Add that line in on LinkedIn. Literally, it's just like if you have a resume that's outdated and you thought, oh, I don't need to refresh it. I'm going to have this job forever. And you get laid off now what? Your resume is old, you're about to spend a week trying to figure it out and refresh it with social, all you have to do is right when you get the opportunity, well, okay, not right when you get the opportunity, finish the opportunity or get 75% of the way through and then add a little something on social to show your experience and keep it pushing.
(38:53):
You don't have to make it your whole life, especially because like Manny said earlier, we have studying MCQs essays. I think Manny referred to it as this or that earlier, but I translated this or that for you, Manny. I know it meant essays and MCQs, so I know you have that to do. But also, go ahead and update your social, update your LinkedIn if nothing else. We know you guys are trying to find jobs. We are trying to find jobs and secure those for ourselves in internships. So this is the perfect episode for you to take this little bit of an edge and a push and do that for yourself. And thanks to honor
Todd Berger (39:27):
Once again, thanks to our guest, honor Williams. If you'd like to keep this conversation going, share your questions with us on Spotify or write us a review on Apple Podcasts. And for even more content curated just for you, head over to the a, a Law Student division website and become a member. We'd also like to give our thanks to our production partners at Marine Media and the A Law Student division. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.