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ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Listen in to these conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders as we bring you stories from behind the seal of these Christ-centered ministries and churches and discover how trust is the foundation of it all.
01:00:00:07 - 01:00:18:10
Unknown
The 42%, as high as 42% is now 39% of pastors who say that they have given serious consideration to quitting. That was David Kinnaman, CEO of the Barna Group. For nearly 40 years, Barna has been leading the research on the intersection of faith and culture. David is also the author of the bestselling books Faith for Exiles Good Faith You Lost Me and unChristian.
01:00:19:01 - 01:00:36:10
Unknown
The body of Barnier's research gives it a unique vision of the church landscape. Stay with us. As you phase President Micheal Martin and Ucf's, senior vice president of Research and Equipping Warren Byrd, discuss with David what the Barney Group sees in the data. What are the trends and what does healthy leadership have to do with it?
01:00:40:17 - 01:00:59:20
Unknown
Well, welcome to the ECF, a podcast. I'm so honored today to be joined by a couple of special guests who really need no introduction. One is Dr. Warren Byrd, who is a senior vice president of research and equipping here at ECF, and also our special guest, a friend of ex-gay, David Kinnaman, the president of Barna, Warren. And David, so good to have you today.
01:00:59:20 - 01:01:13:01
Unknown
And I know talking about a topic that is near and dear to all of our hearts and that is healthy leadership. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, it's great to be with you. Great to be here. Well, since we had the luxury to David, let Warren and I just say how much we appreciate you and your work at Barna.
01:01:13:02 - 01:01:30:29
Unknown
You all really set the gold standard when it comes to research. And so as we launch into this conversation today on healthy leadership and there have been some great reports that have come out from Barna just exploring this topic, I know for so many of us in the ministry community, it's a little bit of a sobering time, right as we look at the state of of leadership.
01:01:30:29 - 01:01:44:28
Unknown
But so many of the findings, the research that you've done has really helped us to better understand what's happening, what's going on. We've done some of our own research at ECF that were excited to share about, but just thank you so much, David, for the work that you and Barna do. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me be on the podcast.
01:01:44:28 - 01:01:58:12
Unknown
And Warren is a fantastic researcher and an even better friend, so it's nice to be with you here today and thanks for the kind words about about barn. I mean, we're happy to serve and it's been an interesting season to be serving in. Yes. No, that's right. Well, I couldn't agree more. And why don't we just launch in there?
01:01:58:12 - 01:02:16:00
Unknown
I think kind of starting with big picture and love to get into some of the specifics as far as what you all are finding, you know, as it relates to leadership and just things that are helpful practices. We'll get to all of that here in just a moment. But, David, just as you're kind of taking that bird's eye view at the ministry community, what is it that you're seeing as it relates to churches and ministries and leadership?
01:02:16:00 - 01:02:35:04
Unknown
What's what's encouraging to you and and what's something that maybe you're a little more concerned about? Well, one of the things that I'm encouraged about is that we've we've worked with a research agency called Heart and Mind, a friend of mine, De Alsop, and they've they've actually been looking at attitudes and perspectives related to whether religion is good for our society or bad for our society across all us adults.
01:02:35:17 - 01:02:55:28
Unknown
And actually, one of the encouraging things that that we saw in that research was that compared to just four years ago, five years ago, currently fewer people think that religion is bad, that faith is bad for our society. In 2016, half of Americans believe that religion was bad for society, that faith or religion were bad for society. But that number has actually dropped now to just two in five.
01:02:55:28 - 01:03:15:10
Unknown
So it's still it's still a huge percentage of people. But I actually think that COVID and everything that has happened over the last couple of years, the church has shown up in some meaningful ways. And actually people people have noticed and some of our data actually shows similar kinds of things. When we look at people's perceptions of local Christian churches, there's been a real uptick in people's positive perceptions.
01:03:15:10 - 01:03:30:23
Unknown
So I actually think that's a a good sign. There's still plenty of negative perceptions. I'm of the feeling like we should pay attention to it. We shouldn't be driven by it. We should be informed by the data. We shouldn't be driven by the data. And obviously we can't cater to people that have negative perceptions. But I do think there is a real sense of the reputation of the church that has has improved.
01:03:30:23 - 01:03:43:23
Unknown
And I think the good work of churches, the courageous way in which they've been sort of spiritual frontline workers in the last couple of years has been has been really positive, and I'm encouraged by that. And then I think on the on the concerning side, there's lots of things to be pleased about, lots of things to be concerned about.
01:03:43:23 - 01:03:59:08
Unknown
But among the things that I think we could be concerned about is the 42%. As high as 42% is now 39% of pastors who say that they have given serious consideration to quitting. And I think that tells us something about the challenges of being a spiritual frontline worker, about the kind of exhaustion that has set in for a lot of leaders.
01:03:59:08 - 01:04:22:22
Unknown
I do think this is a primary issue. The ability for us to retain the right leaders in pastoral leadership and to encourage them. I know we're going to talk quite a bit about that today in the podcast, but I think this is pressure that so many industries have failed, so many of us have felt. But but recognizing that pastors are just at a really low point, I think I think this is starting to recover some as people's lives are getting back to some kind of normalcy.
01:04:22:22 - 01:04:39:02
Unknown
But I think that 39%, two in every five pastors who say that they are giving serious consideration to quitting is something we should we should be ringing alarm bells about now. That's right. And, David, I so appreciate your comments because it really aligns so much with the heart of the CFA and even this conversation, which is there are, you know, a number of things that care about.
01:04:39:02 - 01:04:57:10
Unknown
But very high on the top of those lists are both. We really care about leaders and about the calling that God has placed on them. And just yeah, you hear some of those challenges that leaders are walking through. And so even in just this conversation today and as we unpack some of the struggles that they're walking through, it really comes from a place of we really care for leaders and want to unpack all that with you in a moment.
01:04:57:10 - 01:05:16:08
Unknown
But also something I heard to David in what you said is really caring about the Capital C church, you know, organization, sort of the perception of church, if you will. It was encouraging to hear you say that maybe we're moving the needle a little bit in the right direction. So all of that is good. You know, I don't know if you've researched this particular area or not, but maybe bringing these two topics together.
01:05:16:08 - 01:05:43:18
Unknown
David, have you done any research around even this idea of healthy leadership or unhealthy leadership? And how does that impact the levels of trust, you know, that folks have in in the church, in ministry? We have done quite a bit of work on that. And in some ways, I actually think you could look at just the body of work our company has produced, you know, starting starting with George Barna and then continuing with me and with our team that in some ways the the projects that we've been able to focus on.
01:05:43:26 - 01:06:03:04
Unknown
A project called You Lost Me, which was the, you know, the the loss of faith. A lot of people misunderstood the data or have had had sort of this this idea that people walk away from faith and it's still huge, a huge problem. 22% of young people who grow up in Christian faith actually lose their faith entirely. That's actually double what it was was 11% back in 2011.
01:06:03:04 - 01:06:17:22
Unknown
So I think that the algorithms and what I call digital Babylon have made it more difficult for us to disciple. But still, there's a huge number of people that lapse in faith. They call themselves Christian, but they're not they're not very active. And so that book really focused and tried to shine a light on some of the challenges of discipleship.
01:06:18:11 - 01:06:35:22
Unknown
Another project called Christian focused on the negative perceptions of the church. You know, I think another project idea we gave Lyons called Good Faith was a focus on you know, what happens when Christianity is viewed as irrelevant and extreme. And then each of these cases, it's not. We we live in a complicated society and the church is not always perceived in a friendly manner.
01:06:36:04 - 01:06:51:22
Unknown
But a lot of the challenges that I think the church has today, whether it's the lack of discipleship or the lack of an effective public witness or, you know, the loss of faith among young people, I think are failures of leadership and unhealthy leadership and an inability to sort of measure the most important things that that ought to matter.
01:06:52:15 - 01:07:12:08
Unknown
And so we set, I think, at an interesting crossroads for for the Christian community in general. We're referring, you know, obviously to local churches, but also to the parish church organizations and other other entities that support into, you know, sort of the faith ecosystem in the Christian space. And I think it's a it's a really exciting time because I think there's opportunities for for really great and transcendent and humble leadership to emerge.
01:07:12:19 - 01:07:29:25
Unknown
And I think we're seeing signs of that, signs of life all over the place. But in the midst of that, we have to be able to take a good hard look at some of the things that haven't worked and the fact that young people who are science minded for example, that are growing up, who want careers in science, technology, engineering and math have no holes, no discipleship opportunities and local church, I mean, that's a real failure of leadership in my mind.
01:07:29:25 - 01:07:45:04
Unknown
And it it ends up, you know, showing, I think, in the data as we end up losing many of those young people who are interested in those kinds of careers, what I call sort of a vocational discipleship mindset. So, you know, I think our job is always to shine a light on these things and try to ask and inspire the church to be a better version of itself.
01:07:45:07 - 01:07:58:24
Unknown
And, you know, sometimes we're sometimes we're characterized as, you know, sort of looking only at the bad, bad news. That's not sort of their heart. A heart is to try to point out what those areas where we can grow, where we can do it better, what we can find, I think a more faithful way. Yeah. No, that's right.
01:07:58:24 - 01:08:17:07
Unknown
You've connected some dots really well for us, so. Yeah. Thank you for that. David Warnock, invite you to, you know, into this kind of. What's your perspective? I know we've done a lot of research here too, at ECF and touched on some of these themes. So Warren, what's kind of your reaction to some of what David Sharing? Well, Michael, let me respond to that with from me and then I'll end up with a question to David.
01:08:18:07 - 01:08:45:25
Unknown
Overall, I'm really encouraged by how many books and writing and speaking there is out there on the issue of caring for the senior leader, for social care, for all the the awareness that's being raised and and research being done on. Okay, so how are we actually doing in caring for the leader. We're we have some numbers in some some quantities some things surprised me like ECF they just did the nation's largest survey of church planners and and one of the questions I asked was about their mental health.
01:08:46:03 - 01:09:08:02
Unknown
How was it before you launched then, during the pandemic and then today and to my surprise, they all said rated it about the same on on median average. And this was very encouraging. And yet there are some disparities, one of which being the difference between the leader and the group most likely to care for the leader, it would be the board.
01:09:08:02 - 01:09:31:24
Unknown
So in one survey we asked the board, how are you doing on Soul care for your leader? And they said, Great. And then we asked that same question to the same leader in that same organization or church. So how's the board doing on soul care for you? And the answer is not so well. The disparity of how we need to to find actual help beyond raising the awareness so boards were in or boards and leaders not being on the same page.
01:09:32:00 - 01:09:51:01
Unknown
Is that that's what you're saying, Parag? So then, David, to you, you talked earlier about the number of leaders who think about quitting, and I'm sure that's far more than the Monday morning pastor who says, Yeah, time for my weekly reflection or should I throw in the towel? But you've been asking, are you thinking seriously of leaving the ministry?
01:09:51:08 - 01:10:18:00
Unknown
Do you have any actual traction on those that are following through the great resignation and which really wasn't or at least it hasn't happened yet in pastoral world, what do you see? And by those not just that, express the concern but are actually transitioning? Well, one of the things that's a limitation of our research is that we can only interview people that are still available via, you know, a are pastor panel or who are part of our, you know, ability to call them via telephone.
01:10:18:12 - 01:10:40:28
Unknown
And so once a person leaves, we don't have a very good way of of checking in with them about how they've done. And so we don't have any ability at this point to say this is the percent that have stayed is the percent that have left. I'm hearing anecdotally, though, that there are, especially in certain traditions, huge gaps in the number of leaders who are available to respond to, you know, to a call to the kind of, you know, open positions.
01:10:41:27 - 01:11:01:17
Unknown
I think I think we're seeing, you know, sort of this great convulsions across, you know, the Christian landscape. In some ways, we we're actually seeing some really good news that sometimes in some in some cases, millennials are even more likely to show up at church after the pandemic than they were before. And that can be either show up or watch sort of the sort of the hybrid the the hybridization of the church has actually helped, I think, increase engagement with the younger generation.
01:11:01:17 - 01:11:32:19
Unknown
So I think there's some good news there, but we're not able to sort of say the percentage of pastors who have actually quit. We just know there's too few, you know, too few younger pastors available for open positions in many cases. And I think this this also begs the question to broaden our discussion a bit, then I think a really important set of discussions that we need to have is is widening our understanding of what it means to be a pastor in our in our world today that we need more and better by vocational leaders, in part because I actually think bi vocational pastors have one superpower that vocational pastors don't have.
01:11:32:19 - 01:11:52:03
Unknown
And by the way, I'm all for vocational pastors. I come from a long line of pastors. My my father has been a pastor in the Phenix area for many, many years. I considered being a pastor. I think we need many, many full time vocational pastors. The Bible, occasional pastors have a superpower that other full time vocational pastors don't, and that is that they don't they don't have to respond to the whims of their congregation from a monetary perspective.
01:11:52:03 - 01:12:16:09
Unknown
Right. There's something that's independent, perhaps about people that don't get paid by the same people that are preaching to you. Now, again, I think there's a biblical argument for that to be done. And I'm all for vocational pastors being paid, but I'm also I'm also just I think we need a real interesting mix of a broadening of our understanding of what it means to lead that even those of us in, you know, I sort of think about my ministry at Barna Group as a kind of public pastor, using research as a sort of way of speaking into current issues.
01:12:17:14 - 01:12:32:25
Unknown
I feel like we're sort of pastoring pastors. I feel like we need people who can can pastor and have a pastoral mindset in the workplace. I think I think millennials and Gen Z will will not put up with the kind of the usual kind of sacred secular divides that end up plaguing the church. And so they're going to need a bi vocational vision for ministry.
01:12:33:09 - 01:12:47:25
Unknown
So there's lots of different reasons, I think by vocational ministry could be an important part of the future. But I'm also, you know, there's there's you know, there's just too there's too many open positions right now and ways in which that that sort of I think we're going through this kind of major winnowing of church leaders. And I think that for the most part is a good thing.
01:12:48:20 - 01:13:16:18
Unknown
So at ECF, we're all about enhancing trust in in the leader in the air, in the confidence of donors in particular has all of this awareness of leader help and and the occasions of leader unhealthy in your take has that undermined trust in the congregations especially or what's been the impact? Yeah. I think this issue of trust is one of the most important areas for the future.
01:13:16:18 - 01:13:35:19
Unknown
There's the Edelman Trust index and a variety of different things that focus in on kind of public health. And I think I think trust in general is such an important currency to be to be thought through and to be carefully stewarded. And I do think that pastors have to be thinking about trust and credibility, which is, by the way, part of the argument about vocational pastoring.
01:13:35:19 - 01:14:03:09
Unknown
Right? Because you're like, let's say you had a bi vocational pastor or you had laypeople who you'd ordained in a kind of pastoral way. I know there's complicated things depending on your tradition, to sort through, but when you think about that, the opportunity of having others, people who who care about the mission of the church, who aren't paid, when when you ask for money to be speaking up, for the case to be made for fundraising or, you know, the reason why financial accountability is so important, right, is we live in a radically transparent era where people are always trying to dig and see, you know, what what what are they not telling me?
01:14:03:10 - 01:14:27:02
Unknown
Right. And there's an under undercurrent of of skepticism. But I think there's important ways that we need to be thinking about trust. We're actually doing a big study on perceptions of Jesus, and we're actually finding that people have most trust in Scripture and local church leaders to help tell them what to believe about Jesus. But they they also have some amount of skepticism towards celebrity Christians and towards, you know, the algorithms, social media and digital, even though those tend to be the places where they end up.
01:14:27:17 - 01:14:52:15
Unknown
It's sort of like you talked about earlier, this sort of this paradox between they actually do end up listening to celebrity Christians and they do end up going to the algorithms for information about how to how to believe what to believe. But they tell us they trust local leaders most. And so I do think this cultivating trust, thinking about what it means, realizing that our society day is always looking for the other shoe to drop, or for you no reason not to believe that we might be really, really honest, that it's not even that we're not.
01:14:52:18 - 01:15:14:13
Unknown
We're dishonest. There's something about this moment with the meme culture and that the images and pictures and sayings that are sort of, you know, small little bite size, usually humor, usually a sort of a dark side of humor. There's something that I think has eroded our ability to believe those who are really earnest and well-meaning. There's actually you know, it's sort of like if you picture Michael Scott from the office, it's like he was a very earnest character in that in that show.
01:15:15:04 - 01:15:34:06
Unknown
And nobody trusts him because, well, you know, you're either working for corporate or you're you're working for yourself. And so I feel like pastors have this really challenging place today, especially with hybrid church. And, you know, you're you're you're webcasting your services and you're trying to, like, get the vibe just right to, you know, compel people towards certain actions, especially towards, you know, following Christ of their whole lives.
01:15:34:13 - 01:16:01:18
Unknown
And so we're really in an interesting and I think, fun time to be experimenting and to be really taking an honest look at what does it mean to cultivate trust. And that's, you know, financial trust and relational trust and trust that you have something to say to my parenting or to my my relationships, the trust that, you know, you might have something to say to my vocational life, my career, my purpose, trust that I could sacrifice on behalf of this community and feel like, you know, that that my my belief in what it means to be part of this Christian story, part of that part of what it means to be Christian is actually going
01:16:01:18 - 01:16:24:01
Unknown
to matter. So I do think trust is such an important currency for our time today. I agree. And the recent Gallup poll that looked at 50 years of trust in institution and different roles put church and pastors at an all time low, which is just fascinating. Yeah. And David, I wanted to pick up, too, on something you said.
01:16:24:01 - 01:16:38:01
Unknown
I appreciate that you talked about kind of taking an honest look. And I know one of the things, you know, just as even reflecting on personally the impact of some of these findings, you know, from research. So I'm taking a little bit of a digression, but but away from the numbers for a second to some of the real life stories.
01:16:38:01 - 01:16:58:21
Unknown
But, you know, I appreciate it. So many the leaders who honestly, at least in the CFA, research sort of share with us some of the things that they're struggling with. And, you know, one of them that it's just open ended comments and some of the statements that really move me. You know, one person said somebody needs to care anybody, you know, just as they were talking about the struggles they're facing and just the awkwardness of as a leader, you know, what does that dynamic look like with your board?
01:16:58:21 - 01:17:20:12
Unknown
And can you raise those kinds of, you know, concerns and issues? So before we get back into a little bit more of the of the numbers, and those are all really good in terms of some of the challenges that leaders might be facing, I just love to even open it up to to both of you, to Warren and to David, just as you're reflecting on some of the data that you see, what are just even personally what's kind of stirring in you, as you see, because there's always stories, you know, that are behind these numbers.
01:17:20:12 - 01:17:55:10
Unknown
So, David, you know, anything, especially from your perspective as you've done some of this work around leaders who are considering leaving the ministry? Well, I think it's been it's been a a really fulfilling couple of years for me. It sort of feels like, you know, groups like Barna were sort of built for a pandemic. You know, we don't like to see the turmoil and the chaos, but it's been it's been fun to have a real time opportunity to to measure public opinion during such a such a global crisis and to think about its impact on the church and its impact on people.
01:17:55:10 - 01:18:13:03
Unknown
And I think that's, you know, really encouraging is that we've seen, you know, again, some of the things we've said that people have seen and responded and our our are able to articulate that the church has actually shown up in a in a meaningful way. And then my colleague Carrie Nuha and I had a chance of hosting a podcast for, you know, the better part of two years.
01:18:13:03 - 01:18:36:02
Unknown
And it it's actually been just amazing just to hear from so many leaders who were, you know, really struck to the core about issues of what the church should do, how well we were making disciples, the heartbreak that people were experiencing as pastors when people just disappeared and never said anything. The the courage and innovation and the ways that pastors were, you know, in encouraging each other through the pandemic.
01:18:36:02 - 01:18:53:26
Unknown
And we were we were honored to have the Church Pulse Weekly podcast be just a small part of that encouragement to people. So I was just I was, you know, I like change a lot, actually. It's a funny, funny thing. I'm just realizing that too much personally, too. So I like I like traveling, I like new foods, I like new people, I like new business opportunities, I like new projects.
01:18:53:26 - 01:19:12:20
Unknown
I like thinking about, you know, the future. And so I feel like this has been a really amazing opportunity for us as church leaders to think about, you know, Jesus metaphor of new wine skins, you know, don't want to tear, I don't tear things down. But I do take very seriously God being a be an active force in our in our world, in our lives.
01:19:12:20 - 01:19:27:21
Unknown
And he does that through a lot of factors. But part of that is human innovation and also human desperation. And I feel like we're seeing some, you know, some desperation that is is a really important catalyst to, you know, imagining what might be next. Yeah, I think that's right. Just really at a crossroads and so much on the horizon more.
01:19:27:21 - 01:19:40:10
Unknown
And where are you going to push you know 13 is what you've said. There's been more change in churches in the last couple of years that in the last 20 years people saying, well, we just can't do that anymore, or we need to try something different as a way of furthering our mission to reach the world for Christ.
01:19:40:10 - 01:20:02:20
Unknown
And people are like, okay, okay, that the resistance level has been way low. The challenge has been the leaders who are like, Hey, this is what I know, but I'm entering in the era of I don't know how to lead, how to navigate what, what the phrases, the words, how to touch that culture with the unchanging gospel in words that connect with the heart and soul.
01:20:03:08 - 01:20:22:04
Unknown
We are definitely in a season of transition now. Well and Warren to just yeah for sure. Warren getting back to to some of the you know some of the numbers and we have carefully looked at a lot of those and I know you and I is and even as we've reflected on what's been published by our friends at Barna, we were really curious about some of the challenges, right.
01:20:22:04 - 01:20:41:09
Unknown
That leaders are facing. So I think you had some questions there for David to just about reflections around challenges of leadership, too, right? Yeah, we could we could ask a whole lot of things for why pastors stay and what you're learning about that and what we can learn about the importance of ministry leaders feeling supported by their communities.
01:20:41:09 - 01:21:13:13
Unknown
Let me just dig a little further. In the research we did with boards, just to set it up further. We then took boards that viewed themselves as effective and compared boards that viewed themselves as ineffective. And then we we looked at the soul care questions against that. And you don't get a sharper contrast. Effective boards 83% of them said we're doing a good job of caring for our pastor and boards that rate themselves as ineffective 26% said night and day we're not caring for our pastor.
01:21:13:20 - 01:21:35:00
Unknown
So talk to us about the structures and the pathways for leadership care. Well, I think it's such important and such an important conversation and such important work for us is we're as we're thinking as we're as you're hearing this as a listener, you know, just be thinking about the kinds of soul care priorities you have as a as a leader, as an institution.
01:21:35:19 - 01:21:54:02
Unknown
We've we've been working a little bit with a longtime friend and colleague named Mindy Kellogg Wire, who runs something called Soul Care. And she came and actually did some staff retreat for our team. And it was so helpful just a few months ago. And we were we're just, you know, in a really great place at at a friend's cabin in the woods.
01:21:54:02 - 01:22:10:12
Unknown
So that helped to have a meaningful conversation. And it's funny how the setting a change of setting and a change of pace can really help us slow down and think about what what it is we really want. And she had this great comment about the pandemic that she said, you know, it turns out that all of us are dealing with issues of social care to one extent or another.
01:22:10:19 - 01:22:29:04
Unknown
And and and there was a she made this comment. It was like, you know, we were all swimming naked. And then the pandemic took the tide out. And, you know, it reminded us that we all were, you know, in greater need of in greater need of, you know, some help and I think soul care is such an important and often overlooked conversation, even, and sometimes especially among pastors and Christian leaders.
01:22:29:15 - 01:22:46:08
Unknown
And, you know, how can we hope to be the kind of salt and light in the world and to build the kind of, you know, meaningful, transformational structures of ministry and pathways of ministry when we ourselves aren't being changed by that same that same message? And so, listen, we found a lot of really good things in the data.
01:22:46:17 - 01:23:07:28
Unknown
We find that a lot of leaders, even despite their challenges, are saying that they still feel called to this, that this work, you know, they they say despite the challenge of being a pastor, I can't see myself doing anything else. That was nearly 80% of pastors. I feel rewarded in my role as a pastor, 75%. But we only found that about half said that they prioritize their self-care as a pastor, and only 15% said they prioritize their self-care as a pastor.
01:23:07:28 - 01:23:27:16
Unknown
They strongly agreed with that. Only 14% said they feel like their own spiritual formation too often takes a backseat to other pastoral responsibilities. But but more almost is 57% said that they agreed with that. And we found that about a third of all pastors say they're struggling with depression. So there was this really interesting mix. And pastors are humans to, of course, and they're dealing with a lot of pressures.
01:23:28:05 - 01:23:47:25
Unknown
But I think it's so important for us as we enter this new space of ministry, to be thinking about our own hearts and to be to be focused on heart health and on soul care so that when the tide goes out, we won't be swimming naked next to all of our our fellow, our fellow swimmers there. They'll be something that is deeper and robust in our in our lives in a very meaningful way.
01:23:47:25 - 01:24:04:11
Unknown
And that's that's been, you know, certainly my journey in the last couple of years, you know, being under spiritual direction and finding even even more and deeper roots in the scriptures this last six months or so, I mean, that's always been very important to me. But just in particular reasons, this last couple of years have been really rich.
01:24:04:11 - 01:24:30:18
Unknown
And the Lord's presence, you know, in my life as a leader has has been something of just, you know, just a singular place of of clinging to. And so I just I would encourage leaders that those who we actually saw really interesting patterns in the day to those who were the least likely to want to quit, were also the ones who were most likely to attend to these issues of social care and realizing that they have to, you know, work on themselves and be worked on by others who care and in really open hand ways.
01:24:30:18 - 01:24:54:14
Unknown
And I think those are some important themes that we saw compared to those who are, you know, willing to quit. We actually saw a lot less prioritization. Now it's correlation, not causation, but there's a lot of really important trends in the data that tells us that when we pay attention to our inner lives and put ourselves in a community where we're we're actually surrendered to them and want to see them help keep us in the game, There's actually there's actually some real power in saying, hey, I'm I'm not enough to do this work only, only through God's grace and through the power of other people around me.
01:24:54:14 - 01:25:09:12
Unknown
Can I do David That's really rich and profound that those let me just say back to make sure we're hearing you right. Those who are the least likely to quit are the ones who are. We're not doing causation. We're just doing correlation are the ones who are most likely to be in some kind of self-care or spiritual direction.
01:25:09:20 - 01:25:30:28
Unknown
And the opposite, those who are most likely to quit or say they're going to quit are are not having that level of self-care. Wow. So maybe that's a very practical tip to encourage those who are feeling discouraged or wanting to burn out that in essence, to say you can get help. I think it is. Yeah. And I think I think we have all these tools.
01:25:30:28 - 01:25:50:06
Unknown
I doubt there's a single leader out there who's gotten into ministry without at least some of these tools being being put in place. And we can we can sometimes bash on seminary, we can bash on certain structures of ministry preparation. And I'm actually think those need to be rebuilt, too. But I also feel like in our in our toolkit, there's a lot of us who are going through who've got who've got the tools there.
01:25:50:14 - 01:26:04:09
Unknown
And I would even say, don't don't underestimate the fact that we've even done some research. It's been a number of years, but we see a number of pastors who actually come to us and say we're actually having a crisis of our own faith. And so sometimes they don't know where to talk about that. And I think, again, you're not alone.
01:26:04:09 - 01:26:25:18
Unknown
Whatever it is you're experiencing, whether it's depression or mental health issues or challenges in your marriage or challenges with your kid or struggles with pornography or a lack of of of confidence in your own abilities as a pastor. A fascinating thing, I think, to look at is how people's skill sets change over their career and recognizing that we're all going to face a certain kind of decline in in how we do what we do.
01:26:25:18 - 01:27:00:06
Unknown
But there's also like a second curve we can get on as pastors and leaders. And so just being honest with with ourselves and with others and most especially with God about where we are and taking those insecurities and those hurts. Listen, I think a lot of pastors, a lot of us as leaders are carrying a whole suitcase full of accumulated hurts, of people who've left our churches, budgets that didn't balance, people who set things, people we tried to tried to trust, people we tried to extend help to who ended up, you know, badmouthing us on the way out or spreading vicious rumors about us or just leaving without ever saying goodbye.
01:27:00:06 - 01:27:34:06
Unknown
We marry them. We we bury them, their family members, I guess someone who gets buried says leaves without saying goodbye. But, you know, we we we have all these accumulated hurts. And I just I get to say from my own experience as a leader, that the one place we can take our accumulated hurt is to the Lord, and the better, the better we can be at at taking that suitcase of accumulated hurts and and unpacking it and putting it in and, you know, the laundry with the Lord and talking to others about it and finding others aren't a part of our local church where we're not we're not someone to them.
01:27:34:06 - 01:28:06:10
Unknown
We're just we're just the people God has created us to be. I believe God can do some powerful things in us and through us as leaders, when we've been able to take take out that dirty laundry and let the Lord, you know, kind of wash us and renew us, because it is really difficult work. Now, I think, going forward in this complicated time, part politics, economics, you know, the kind of challenges we have with our staff are our relationships, you know, So the more we can deal with that with our baggage, the more we can deal with these these hurts to talk about why they sting so much, why they can bring us to tears,
01:28:06:10 - 01:28:29:01
Unknown
why they can bring us to passive aggressiveness, or why we can, you know, show up each week with with so many accumulated hurts. I think God is asking us to to put those burdens down and to find a way to be renewed in presence through the word of God, through the Spirit's work in our lives, and most especially in the tens or also in tangible expression of human human relationship and community.
01:28:29:01 - 01:28:45:05
Unknown
That's right. Yeah. David, I appreciate so much of what you just shared there. And I want to come back to to something connecting dots. AGR Themes once again to something that Warren shared earlier, which was this disconnect, you know, between the leader in the board. And David, I would love for you to even just speak to maybe any board members who are listening.
01:28:45:05 - 01:29:02:27
Unknown
You talked about community and that could be a number of people. It's not always the board and we're not even saying board should become a leaders. You know, personal accountability group or anything like that. But boards certainly have a very unique role that they can play in this area, providing a level of support, you know, to the leader in terms of maintaining health and even integrity and all those pieces.
01:29:02:27 - 01:29:30:12
Unknown
So I'd love to you for you to even speak to any board members who might be listening around that theme of being a community to the leader. Yeah, I think governance issues are kind of the unseen, often undiscussed part of the structure and the health of an organization. I don't know quite what. Maybe you guys have a good analogy of what sort of bought bodily system is closest to the circulatory or the nervous system or the skeletal structure or the limbic system.
01:29:30:12 - 01:29:47:04
Unknown
Any and all of those could work in a certain way. Right. Did we have a quick response to that? Which which sort of system is most like the importance of governance? Well, I'm going to let Warren answer that question, because my wife, she's a nurse. My background, I failed anatomy, so. WARREN Well, every one has a rich metaphor.
01:29:47:04 - 01:30:04:02
Unknown
And David, in our talking, I just loved all the word pictures that you have. You say you pick, you pick the analogy and metaphor you want to use and walk us through it. Okay. Well, we'll just go with the fact that they're that they're an important sort of unseen system. Right. Like any of these sort of parts of our body where you're like, wow, it is.
01:30:04:02 - 01:30:22:13
Unknown
It's sort of like magic as the way the Lord has created. And governance is is an important part. We see it throughout Scripture. Obviously, it's an important part of our of sort of building of organizations. God's created human beings with the capacity to, you know, lock arms and do things together in in not just as individual humans, but as as collective entities and institutions and nonprofits.
01:30:22:13 - 01:30:43:00
Unknown
And and governance is so important. So I would say, first, don't underestimate just the power of really good governance and how like a super strong skeleton or circulatory system it is, it is unseen and sometimes unthank, But it is it is essential to the movements of these organizations and then to the flourishing and thriving of the leaders and the people that they serve.
01:30:43:00 - 01:30:57:19
Unknown
And I would I would just encourage you to be a really safe place to listen to me. And I think today, faith leaders, we're I'm encouraged by the fact that the leaders are so open in our surveys, people talking in pretty openly. They're anonymous surveys, but they talk about their porn issues or they talk about their their identity issues or their their insecurities.
01:30:57:19 - 01:31:18:01
Unknown
And I think that's a great moment for survey research. I'm sure Warren would agree that, you know, it's actually people still love to give their opinions and they're they're so open and honest that sometimes shocks me, you know, And it's good. It's good for business, it's good for our work. But I just think being willing as a board chair and or as any member in a in a governance community to just really listen, to be careful not to take that leap.
01:31:18:15 - 01:31:34:23
Unknown
Well, we do it this way in our business. And so it must work this way in the church. The church is not built on business principles, even though there can be, you know, some important overlap to be careful not to be the sort of the know it all and the, you know, the easy answer person. There's very deep and systemic issues that can be part of the issues that plague our organizations.
01:31:35:09 - 01:31:58:22
Unknown
And we have a challenge. I think sometimes pastors, if we're really being honest, they they love preaching and teaching. I mean, they tell us in the surveys, seven out of ten say their main their main joy comes from preaching and teaching. And very few fewer than one in ten say they love weeding and administrating. So, you know, there is actually something structural about the way we've we've we've we've kind of layered the expectations of of good communicators are also good leaders.
01:31:59:00 - 01:32:18:07
Unknown
And good leaders can be good communicators they often are but every good communicator is a good leader. And I think we're actually seeing kind of the I think the pandemic actually, when the tide went out, we noticed how how, how unclothed our discipleship efforts were because we were building around the communication capabilities of one or two or whatever, really talent and leaders that we haven't structured.
01:32:18:27 - 01:32:38:28
Unknown
And this is a big word here, but the pedagogical structures, we haven't we haven't created a learning community where we are all learning from one another under the way of Christ. And yes, there are certain sort of echelons of leadership and, you know, pastors and prophets and path apostles, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists. And we need different gifts of sort of edifying build up the church.
01:32:38:28 - 01:33:00:10
Unknown
But we haven't, I don't think, organize around the kind of things that really help people to learn in this crazy era of digital technology and the rest. So I just ask good questions, be a good listener, be willing to see that they're probably deeper answers to the questions that you're asking. And it's not always simple, but then but then pursue the the ability for these leaders that you're serving to to be wholehearted human beings.
01:33:00:10 - 01:33:26:12
Unknown
Don't push them under the weight of like, how can we grow, How can we grow, How can we grow, How can we redesign job descriptions towards the flourishing of the people that we're serving? Are they actually becoming new and better people that being transformed? We can we can measure that stuff now. It's imperfect. It's imperfect, but it's better than just I hated people show up that they give and, you know, what's the health of our organization from a numbers perspective, I think we can actually do a better job today of really saying, yeah, we're actually changing people's mindset and their lived experience related to relationships.
01:33:26:12 - 01:33:43:18
Unknown
Did your ministry do that? And I think there's some really great ways we can we can focus on some deeper some deeper goals together, what what Christ really calls us to and these in these areas of discipleship. And I think board members would be wide open to that. One of the things that consistently came through in our board surveys were was in essence, I'm underutilized.
01:33:43:18 - 01:34:10:18
Unknown
You typically you get top people on your board and then if they feel like, hey, but I'm not really tapped and there's a lot more I can give here and contribute, that tells me at least that there's there's a lot of space for exploring the very things, David, that you've been talking about. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think doing that in the right way where because, because I think we'd all agree that having boards that are overstepping their bounds is, is not what we want.
01:34:10:18 - 01:34:29:02
Unknown
We don't want book boards doing doing the work for the organization. But I think there's ways that there can be some really critical roles that are that are mission aligned, that are effective, that keep, you know, the right circles sort of staff and administration. Speaking of like Christian higher education, you know, like I'm a I'm a board member at a at a Christian college, Christian university.
01:34:29:17 - 01:34:41:27
Unknown
And there's moments where I'm like, Oh, we could do this for you. They're like, no, that's that's not our job as a board. But but I think there are things that I could do or that we could do as as trustees that we're often not asked to do. And so I think leaning into leaning into both parts of wisdom there is really important.
01:34:41:27 - 01:35:11:05
Unknown
Plus, I would say we've never seen healthy leaders who are thriving, who don't also say, and I have a great relationship with my board or my board chair, whatever that looks like in their particular context, that that it is possible to have a healthy, thriving kind of partnership where the leader feels truly supported, not strong armed, not controlled, but but helped and supported and and personally cared for as well.
01:35:12:15 - 01:35:32:27
Unknown
That's right. Good. Warren Yeah, that's right. That captures so well, both of you, just the heart behind HFA this initiative that we're on around leadership, integrity and health. And David, I know you've got to run. We've got to let you go here. But you and Warren, any other final thoughts before we bring this particular conversation to a close?
01:35:32:27 - 01:35:46:24
Unknown
Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you both, Warren. I respect your work and have been admirer and you've been such a good friend to me through the years. So thank you for that. You've always been such an encouragement to me and to our team and to the work we're doing. So thank you. And want to mirror back that same words of encouragement and kindness.
01:35:46:24 - 01:36:04:28
Unknown
And I think, you know, as we go into the sort of new era, new wines can era, I'm, you know, really excited in a hopeful and also, you know, sober sobered about the reality of what that's going to look like for us as leaders and as institutions for so much as is seems seems like it's up for grabs.
01:36:05:19 - 01:36:26:14
Unknown
But I'm grateful for this conversation. I just want to keep encouraging you as leaders and listeners, whatever, whatever station you find yourself in, whether it's in a local church or a board member or, you know, working alongside an organization as a as a Christian leader, a lot of us are sort of in the role of sort of serving alongside local churches, like just let's keep caring for our own hearts and, you know, surrender, surrendering ourselves to the Lord's great purpose for us.
01:36:26:25 - 01:36:42:10
Unknown
We are, after all, a masterpiece who's been created in Christ Jesus to do these good works that long before he we knew of what COVID 19 would be. He he knew and expected and understood that this kind of change what happened and I think a lot of this is is accelerating needed changes for us as institutions, but especially for us as leaders.
01:36:42:10 - 01:36:58:19
Unknown
And so there's a re invitation to take take our very our very selves to the to the throne room and ask the Lord to give us wisdom and grace and peace for this for these this next season of leadership. And I'm excited by it. It's a it's a it's a daunting task. But I think that I think it's a think it's a task worth doing.
01:36:58:19 - 01:37:26:03
Unknown
And I would just amend that and encourage everyone, Don't settle, don't settle for mediocrity, don't settle for a poor relationship. A God wants you to thrive. Your leadership will thrive. The board relationship will thrive. That is possible. Don't give up. Don't settle for anything less. That's good. Thank you. Thank you both. And David, to folks that are listening, I know many have already really dialed into the work at Barna, but how do they stay up to date with you and some of the new research?
01:37:26:03 - 01:37:40:06
Unknown
And we'll put it, by the way, a link in our show notes to the the research projects that we've been talking about today. Unhealthy leadership. But yeah, how do folks stay in touch with you, David? Well, the best is to sign up for our free email newsletter at Barnard Larcom, and we'd be happy to have you join. Great.
01:37:40:06 - 01:38:03:07
Unknown
Well, again, thank you, David. Thank you, Warren. This conversation has been so helpful. I know even to me and to those listening and speaking of those listening, thank you so much for tuning into this ECF podcast. I hope that, you know, some of the points here that both David and Warren raised really just sparked something in you. And there will be more episodes to come as we just unpack a lot of these ideas behind what can leaders do even individually for a lot of their own health.
01:38:03:12 - 01:38:23:01
Unknown
But even in the community that's surrounding the leader and the board of an organization, how can they do that? So I, I hope it sparked, you know, just some really good thoughts for you and even questions we'd love to hear. What questions do you have as you're reflecting? And even at a practical level, if there's certain topics or angles that you would like to hear from, just encourage you to connect with me personally at President, at ECF Dawg.
01:38:23:04 - 01:38:48:10
Unknown
And we look forward to continuing this conversation with you. We can't thank you enough for listening. The ECF is behind the CEO podcast. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode We're planning on releasing to a month in 2023 and share this with a friend, a coworker, a ministry partner, a board member. The more conversations we're having about leadership, integrity and healthy leadership and the soul of the leader, the better.
01:38:48:23 - 01:39:00:25
Unknown
And don't forget. This is all compiled at ECF Dawgs Podcast. That's ECF Dawgs Podcast.