In this episode, Alex is joined by fellow Nuxt core team member Lucie Haberer, who is not only a DX Engineer at Prismic, doing open source but also public speaking.
Together they talk about Lucie's recent free Nuxt and Nuxt UI course and how she got into Vue and Nuxt. Lucie explains further why she fell in love with Nuxt modules and which modules she built so far - with some enlightening surprise there!
In addition, they talk about how Open Source works at Prismic - from when they do open source over to sponsoring projects and contributing - and many more insights.
Links marked with * are affiliate links. We get a small commission when you register for the service through our link. This helps us to keep the podcast running. We only include affiliate links for services mentioned in the episode or that we use ourselves.
Chapters
Welcome to DejaVue
A Free Nuxt UI Course
How you got into Vue.js
From Building a Nuxt module for SSG to joining the core team
A module to control your smart lightbulb?
Running a Nuxt module in every Nuxt app on the computer
Public Speaking and Conferences
Local Meetups
Lucie's responsibilities in the Nuxt team
Inbox 0 and GitHub notifications
Building vs. working with a framework
Monkey patching - but don't forget to raise an issue!
Being a DX Engineer
Prismic and Open Source
Open Source Sponsoring
Working with other frameworks
Wrapping up
In this episode, Alex is joined by fellow Nuxt core team member Lucie Haberer, who is not only a DX Engineer at Prismic, doing open source but also public speaking.
Together they talk about Lucie's recent free Nuxt and Nuxt UI course and how she got into Vue and Nuxt. Lucie explains further why she fell in love with Nuxt modules and which modules she built so far - with some enlightening surprise there!
In addition, they talk about how Open Source works at Prismic - from when they do open source over to sponsoring projects and contributing - and many more insights.
Links marked with * are affiliate links. We get a small commission when you register for the service through our link. This helps us to keep the podcast running. We only include affiliate links for services mentioned in the episode or that we use ourselves.
Creators & Guests
Host
Alexander Lichter
Web Engineering Consultant • Founder • Nuxt team • Speaker
Guest
Lucie Haberer
Hacking Vue.js & Nuxt | DX Engineer at Prismic
Editor
Niki Brandner
Audio Engineer and Video Editor
What is DejaVue?
Welcome to DejaVue, the Vue podcast you didn't know you needed until now! Join Michael Thiessen and Alexander Lichter on a thrilling journey through the world of Vue and Nuxt.
Get ready for weekly episodes packed with insights, updates, and deep dives into everything Vue-related. From component libraries to best practices, and beyond, they've got you covered.
Alexander Lichter:
Everybody. Welcome back to a new episode of your favorite Vue podcast. You might just not know it yet, and it's DejaVue. Yes. And you might wonder, hey.
Alexander Lichter:
New intro. What's up? Maybe you wonder, hey. Where's where's Michael as co host? Yes.
Alexander Lichter:
He's not there at this episode. He'll come back in the next one, so no worries. But luckily, I am not alone here in this episode. Would be interesting though, but even better, we have some really amazing things to talk about with our guest this time. First episode with her on Deja View.
Alexander Lichter:
Give a warm welcome to her. She's a DX engineer at Prismic. She's a public speaker as well and also a Nuxt.js core team member. Hey, Lucie.
Thanks. Yeah. I'm good too. I'm very happy that you joined, the the podcast today. I'm looking forward to all the the amazing topics.
Alexander Lichter:
So yeah. What's on your mind? What's, happened recently? Any any news you wanna share? And if you're like, hey.
Alexander Lichter:
That's so cool it happened.
Lucie Haberer:
Oh, well, like, right now, like, these days, I'm working on, like, courses. So, like, at Prismic, my company, so I won't talk about that. But, yeah, like, I got to work on, like, Nuxt courses and, like, we are, like, we use, like, a small courses for Nuxt 2 and Nuxt UI recently. Yes. But also, like, preparing our, like, tourism, like, first course for Nuxt 4 as soon as I saw it.
Lucie Haberer:
It was like, that's the hot topic right now in Nuxt.
Alexander Lichter:
Of course. Yeah. That's and they're all, like, they're free. They're available on YouTube, and the link for this is also, of course, in the description. So if you wanna check them out, definitely worth a watch.
Alexander Lichter:
I also check them out. So, yeah, that's that's that's really cool. So glad to see, you also doing some content creation on that. And how how do you like that? How do you like creating these these courses?
Alexander Lichter:
Not just like a short video, it's an actual series. So, yeah, what do you think about it?
Lucie Haberer:
Oh, it's, interesting because, like, when you like, it really, like, gets you back to the basics. Like, yeah. Like, I want to build, like, a website, like, for people, like, to bring, like, all the errands and, like, like, bring them, like, to a full website, like, from 0 to something. It's, like, it's really interesting. I could get back to this processing.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Like, I'm new to Prismic. I'm new to Nuxt. I'm new to Nuxt UI, and I want to, like, learn all of that and get a bit of hang of everything, get from 0 to something that is up hosted. And, for me, I'll, like, have the perspective I need to be able like, to build my own stuff for real later on.
Lucie Haberer:
So it's quite a journey. It's a lot of work also every time because, like, when you do, like, well, a one hour long course, like, a 2 hour long course, like, it's a lot of things to plan, a lot of things that you want to be as smooth as possible. So you don't want, like, to ramble too much for, like, yeah, like, oh, there's a bit of Tailwind and when it's built on there, like, post CSS and so on. So, like, you don't want to go too far. You just want to keep it at the right level.
Lucie Haberer:
So, like, people, like, still are still, like, to follow along and, like, hopefully, like, learn a few things along the way and, like, that enable them.
Alexander Lichter:
That totally makes sense. And, yeah, I mean, I also noted myself if, like, the deeper you go, you you can't, like, explain everything from 0. You have like, people have to have at least some, like, level of knowledge. But, like, okay, I know maybe what, yeah, Tailwind CSS is. If not, let's check it out, build a little bit of it, and follow along or, I mean, JavaScript knowledge, of course, as well.
Alexander Lichter:
So what do we say? Like, what is usually the the average, like, audience in terms of, like, skill level, knowledge that that you're aiming for with these, content pieces?
Lucie Haberer:
What I mean for mainly, is like, people, like, have a general understanding of Nuxt. So, like, I'm not explaining every time, like, yeah, like, this is the pages directory and so you do routing and stuff like that. Like, I expect people like to be at least somewhat familiar with that. And, for me, I'm like, they're able to pick up and, like, yeah. Like, the thing we're introducing today is Nuxt UI.
Lucie Haberer:
And so that I don't expect you to know anything about Nuxt UI. I give you, like, a walkthrough of what it is and give you, like, a glimpse at, like, what enables you to do and to craft quickly with it.
Alexander Lichter:
Okay. That makes sense. So it's like it not not 0, but also not super deep into it, not like the crazy advanced cases.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Basically, if you if you run, like, some Nuxt website, like, at one point, like, you're you're good, like, to go and like to pick up a course.
Alexander Lichter:
Sweet. But, yeah, maybe we're we're already quite deep into the whole topic as well. Maybe, like, we even rewind a little bit and start with, like, how you even got into, like, using Vue. Js, maybe Frontend in general. So, like, yeah, how how did that happen back back in time?
Lucie Haberer:
So back in time, like, in the old days well, like like, actually, like, a lot of people, I noticed, like, I started with React really. And I know, like, some of those are, like, when that first, and I started to interact, and, like, it didn't make any sense to me because, well, I was, like, still, like, picking up JavaScript and everything. And, like, all of a sudden, they were like, hey. Like, it leads to JSX and then then you have to know, like, all the Array dot map, Array dot filter, and stuff like that. But they're, like, still, like, quite advanced from someone.
Lucie Haberer:
Like, from point of view, someone is still learning JavaScript. And so I was like, all right, I get the hang of it, but, like, this is all like super abstract to me. So let's try Vue.js. I tried Vue.js and it was like, well, you can just untie HTML CSS, do some JavaScript JavaScript if you want to. And if you want to display something conditionally, if you want, like, to loop over something versus this little syntax that you just add in your tags and that gives you what you need. No, like, JSX, no write dot map, and stuff like that. So it was like much simpler for me to understand and just made more sense. And that's something I've always said about Vue.js.
Lucie Haberer:
If you have no strong background in JavaScript, if you're not used to JSX and everything, like if you come like from PHP or if you've been doing like Java with Spring Boot and like Java, like templates and stuff like that, it's all HTML and CSS. So you already have like 2 out of the three components that make Vue.js vs. React you have this JavaScript tool learn and then JSX, and, like, that's a lot of work for those people. So, yeah, that's where I feel like it just makes a lot of sense.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. I mean, it was a bit similar for me. Like, I I didn't try React first, to be fair. I, like, I spared that, because Taylor Otwell back then, the the creator of Laravel was, like, basically tweeting about Vue. And it's like, oh, that seems easy.
Alexander Lichter:
Let's try. And, yeah, same same idea. I was not, like, super in-depth in in JavaScript. Of course, I I wrote some vanilla JavaScript, lots of jQuery before, but, yeah, it's it's it clicked way easier than learning all the different concepts of of React in terms of, like, JSX and then also making lots of choices. On the other hand, if you have Angular and think about, okay, you have to learn TypeScript and then all the interesting principles like dependency injection and OOP and classes.
Alexander Lichter:
And there's also felt like so much overhead just to build a tiny part of the application. And I think Vue is in a really sweet spot right in the middle there where it is somewhat opinionated, making things easier, but giving enough freedom to just do, like, express yourself and do things.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. And so for me, oh well, I quite quickly, like, picked up Nuxt because, well, it was the easiest way to get into Vue without, like, having to worry about webpack and everything, like, on your own. So, well, I started with Nuxt 2. I think it was, like, Nuxt 2.2 or something like that. Like, really, like, early version of Nuxt 2.
Lucie Haberer:
And, well, the real appeal back then was, like, to make, like, static websites. And this was quite non trivial with Nuxt back then because, well, Nuxt was, like, a universal framework. Meaning, like, it runs on the client, it runs on the server, it does a bit of both. But, like, having just something, like, full static with Nuxt was hard back then because, like, there was, like, this payload thing that's really nice to render and like to fetch on the client when you're or every time. And so, like, vulnerabilities weren't introduced into Nuxt 2 until a long time.
Lucie Haberer:
And I think it's like Nuxt 2.14, something like that, that can just, like, the full static utilities. But until it was not possible, it was like you were a bit on your own to try to do that. For a stage, it was possible. It was tough. And so that sort of started, like, really, like, digging into Nuxt.
Lucie Haberer:
I was like, well, I want to make my website with Nuxt. It's a blog, so I don't want any server involved in that, and I want it referenced because, well, it's a blog. I want my content to show up on Google. That's how I started. I came back to my request, like, let's make this website static.
Lucie Haberer:
And I was like, well, maybe I'll make this website static, but, like, I will make other Nuxt websites. In my end, I have back in the time I was working as a freelancer. So, like, I was also doing the Nuxt website for clients and I wanted their website to be fast too. And so I was like, well, let's make a Nuxt module for that, which, if you don't know Next modules, they're like small plugins that you can add into Nuxt to add in functionalities to the whole framework and are really powerful. I made a talk about that and, like, there was a great documentation about modules.
Lucie Haberer:
But, basically, like, I created this add on for Nuxt.js that, like, was doing, like, all CFD lifting of ending the payload in Nuxt. Like, and, like, allowing our website to finally be fully static and not to make any query to the server on the client when hosted on, like, Netify or Vercel back in the days. So, yeah, I was happy with that. And this enabled me, like, to make my blog and also, like, to make all the websites also, like, fully static without having, like, to worry too much about it.
Lucie Haberer:
And like with the setup and everything, just like drops the module and then you are pretty much done. So that was really cool. That was like a first somewhat contribution of mine. And then I started like doing like other like small modules. So like, I wanted like a like modules that does, like, the, head the head tag of my application, manages all of that.
Lucie Haberer:
So today, like, we have unhead, but back in the day, like, we didn't have anything. So I wanted something, like, a bit, like, simpler to handle, like, the meta tags in my head of my website and so on. I made another module for that and so on and so on. So I like this little collection of modules. One of those that, like, gained some popularity was the NuxtLink module, which basically just was a super simple module that had just the NuxtLink component that was doing a bit more than the NuxtLink component.
Lucie Haberer:
It was basically like handling any kind of link, on your website, but was also able to support links outside of your website.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Finally. So like an anchor tag.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. It takes the anchor tag and the next they put together.
Alexander Lichter:
And I feel like so many people wrote something like that. I remember I also wrote a little like, even a Vue plugin for that. Just like, hey. Okay. There's this special link.
Alexander Lichter:
I I can't even remember how it was how it was named. It exactly just does that and a little bit of scrolling as well. And luckily, Nuxt 3, this is all built in also thanks to you, RFC, back then. So, yeah, I'm happy to see that, for example, that module eventually made it into the core of Nuxt. Even, like, it took a major version, but it's it's there.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Well, it was nontrivial to get it working. But basically yeah. Like, I had this, like, universal link component. Like, I wrote about it.
Lucie Haberer:
It gained some traction on, like, Twitter and everywhere. And, like, basically, like, Sebastian, so, like, one of the Next founder, like, reached out to me. I'm like, wow. Like, we really like this idea. Like, what do you think about, like, bringing it to Next 3?
Lucie Haberer:
And I was like, well, let's do it. That's how I made my first, like, main contribution to Next as well. And also, like, paved me a bit the way to get into the core team, like, inviting the core team by Daniel later on. But, yeah, I was really happy that it was able to make that. It was quite an accomplishment for me.
Lucie Haberer:
Like, oh, well, like, this is the only component I was using for making websites online. Like, now everyone's using it, so that's pretty cool.
Alexander Lichter:
In every Nuxt application, it's a part of your code. So, yeah, I know the feeling. It's it's so cool to just be like, hey, That part, every reps are running like, yeah, there's there's a part of my work in there. And, it's it helps keep things running. It helps making things easier.
Alexander Lichter:
And, yeah, it's a it's a big thing.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, in all fairness, it has change quite a bit since.
Alexander Lichter:
Well, of course. But, I mean, that's also normal with code. Right? Like, you you write it, and, of course, it's not meant to stay forever. If you can reduce some more by, like, keeping things around, sure.
Alexander Lichter:
If you, like, can improve things, definitely. But also, it's it's part of the history. Like, without your contribution, NuxtLink would maybe look totally different than it does right now, and same applies to lots of other situations. So even if the code gets changed afterwards, it's still, like, big credits in the end.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. And, well, so that's like, that's one of the main contribution that basically got me invited to the Nuxt team. I've done of course on, like, few, like, more, like, oriented tour on, like, Windows compatibility because I'm one of those, working on Windows.
Alexander Lichter:
You still do? Yeah.
Lucie Haberer:
I still I'm still, like, well, recording that on Windows right now.
Alexander Lichter:
To be fair, I'm also recording Windows right now. But, like, at least I use WSL when I'm at home and don't use my Mac.
Lucie Haberer:
I also use WSL on them, but I work most of the time on plain Windows.
Alexander Lichter:
Interesting.
Lucie Haberer:
Which, well, it doesn't make sense to some people. But, well, when you're working with just like Node. Js, like simple stuff, like it's working.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Like, I mean, that that's a good thing. Like, nowadays, lots of things just work, but I also know, like, Nuxt had some Windows related issues in terms of performance, for example. Also, like, the paths, as you mentioned, the the whole, like, path resolution. To me, it's just and and that's just one of the many, many packages that are in, the node modules.
Alexander Lichter:
So, like yeah. I'm I'm very happy to setting up WSL.
Lucie Haberer:
In all fairness, like, the performance on, like, playing Windows are still, like, really crappy. So Yeah. Yeah. Like, kudos to WSL and, I do something also.
Alexander Lichter:
But on the other hand, it's really good that's like, you use Windows because then also you can pinpoint these issues even though it sounds like a very tedious thing to do. It's also important because there are way more people using Windows than people would might expect because, of course, no not everybody can either buy buy a MacBook or it goes, like, full on Linux, or, like, even WSL 2 is not supported everywhere. Plus it's also a bit of overhead. You need a quite okay machines around it and so on so on.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Like there was still I was like, it's only kind of tricky things to figure out sometimes.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. So that's that's also interesting. I remember, like you, as you said, you wrote a couple of modules, even one to, like, control your Philips Hue. Yeah. That's that's that's always a fun one.
Alexander Lichter:
Like, I I love that as an example.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. So well, I've always been to Nuxt modules because, basically, like, they are, like, really simple to write, and you can do anything with them on your Nuxt application. And, well, anything, like, really anything that you can really actuate into the framework if you're into that at your own risk, of course. And, yeah, one of the challenges I set myself, like, to my next piece, Philippe Philips Hue module store, like a module that runs on your Nuxt application, but like any Nuxt application that you run on your machines. Like, it's not installed on the Nuxt application explicitly, but it's still running.
Lucie Haberer:
And what's beautiful, Nuxt has, like, all the methods and the APIs to totally, like, to do that, to run a module, like, on all your Nuxt application without having it installed explicitly. And that's thanks to Nuxt global configuration that you have on your computer, which is something like a bit I didn't feature or sort because, like, it sounds like really helpful for a lot of people, but that's something you can abuse to, like, register modules for every Nuxt application you run your code.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Totally makes sense. I think not many people know about it. So maybe let's let's go a bit more deeper on that. Like, how how did you do it?
Alexander Lichter:
Because it's also not that that difficult.
Lucie Haberer:
So well, basically, to register a module in Nuxt, you add it to your Nuxt config. So, well, the easy way of doing that is just like, well, you go to your project, you go to your Nuxt config. Ts file, and you add your module there. But actually, like, the phrase, like, your Nuxt config is just like a principle. It's all like your Nuxt config means like multiple things.
Lucie Haberer:
First of all, like, there's like the default config that Nuxt uses, which gets merged like the config that you have on your project and which gets merged like another config file, like .nuxtrc that you might have on your project also. And then you have the global Nuxt RC that you have at your the root of your own folder on your computer that also gets merged. And like Nuxt smashes, like, all those configs, like, smartly together with the defu, I guess. And, well, it's basically config out of that. And so out of all those configs, like, you cannot edit, like, the default config because it's in the framework itself, like, it's just, like, set in stone.
Lucie Haberer:
You can edit, like, the config of the project, but that one is local to your project. You don't want to add, like, a funny module. Like, it has to be, like, work area, so you keep it as is. And you don't want to read, like, the .nuxtrc on your project because that's also, like, a serious business here, so no place for funny business. So the only place that you can edit the config is not on your project.
Lucie Haberer:
It's your own configuration that is, like, outside of your project that doesn't get on GitHub and that you can do anything on it, for fun at your own risk. And so, well, like to install the Nuxt.js module, basically, when you install it, it installs it on your own nuxt.config, which is outside of your project. And this means that when you run your project, it loads the own config and, like, smashes it together, all the other configs. And all of a sudden, you have the module that is installed globally, and, that's running on all your Nuxt application.
Lucie Haberer:
And, well, so this is all silly, like, because, like, oh, like, yeah. Cool. We have a module that's installed globally. That's also a bit scary. Like, I was like, well, like, you can run code on all your Nuxt application globally.
Alexander Lichter:
Every Nuxt application as well. Yep.
Lucie Haberer:
And all of that just, like, blinks lights in your room. Oh, that's so silly, but, actually, it's not that silly because that's well, this actually inspired, how to install the next dev tools at the very beginning. And I was chatting with Anthony Fu who was working on the dev tools. And when it started, like, the dev tools was also installed, like, globally. So it was something you had, like, on your own next config.
Lucie Haberer:
And so I was like, yeah. Like, you have the dev tools on mismatches. Like, on all your Nuxt projects, the dev tools is still showing up. Well, it turns out, like, we change a bit the way this works because, well, issues. But, yeah, like, this inspired the beginning of the dev tools.
Lucie Haberer:
So, well, like, blinking lights to, like, dev tools, which is now like that's really fancy thing that, other frameworks are trying to get.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Everyone. I was also recently talking about it, in another podcast. It's like I feel like the whole other JavaScript ecosystem was a bit jealous of the, like, Nuxt dev tools there. But it's also so nice to see that even, like, some fun experiments turn out to to have something that's, well, useful for for everyone eventually.
Alexander Lichter:
And also just to see, okay, this this is just this is possible. Right? There might be people with very interesting business requirements like, oh, yeah. Locally in all machines that should be installed, but not committed to GitHub for whatever not committed to Git repository for whatever reason. So even then, that's a a totally valid way to go for.
Alexander Lichter:
And, yes, it's just nice that these things work. That's like that hackable.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. So so yeah. Well, Nuxt modules are awesome, and, you can do all the things with them.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. And and you mentioned the dev tools. Like, once again, there is a discussion right now, probably also when podcast comes out, it's probably still up about how to enable the dev tools by default. Yes, no shortcuts, config entry, and so on because ideally, you also don't wanna have that, like, dev tools true thing in in the Nuxt config because, well, it's also one more thing. It's not too minimal and a little bit well, that that could be better solution.
Alexander Lichter:
So also if if you, in in the audience, of course, do see you as well, is there any, things to to say there? The issue is also linked in the show notes and description. So voice opinion there. I think, okay. Wanna have the dev tools by default.
Alexander Lichter:
Yes. No shortcut, like, just the icon whatsoever because that's that's super important.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. And so, well, I made all those silly things in Nuxt. And, well, one of the great things, like, when you make a silly thing and, like, you learn things another way, you can also turn them into talks. So, of course, I made, like, a talks about Nuxt global modules, which was what was the Nuxt 2 module. And this was actually my very first talk here at the conference back then.
Lucie Haberer:
And, yeah, it was interesting to see, like, like, to explain to people, like, yeah, like, you can see, like, you can, like, fiddle with things and, figure out things, and, then you can, like, teach them to everyone. So I'd like more people know about it.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Especially if some lovely examples where people, like, can can relate. It's like, hey, that's that's just a funny use case. Not doesn't have to be always, like, super, super serious and, like, a real life use case is sometimes way better than, like, something abstract. And and and which conference, did you give for our first talk?
Alexander Lichter:
I mean, I know.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, it was at, Nuxt Nation back in 2020. So, like, during, like, COVID, like, peak times. So there was, like, no real fun fun business, like, doing real life conferences back then. So I gave my talk there and then I gave it again in Amsterdam, which was no, I didn't give it again in Amsterdam. I gave another talk in Amsterdam.
Lucie Haberer:
This was also about modules, if I remember correctly. And, yeah, that's how I started a bit of my speaker journey, which, well, I didn't know it was something I would be into, but it was really interesting, like, to prepare for all of this and to well, like, always great, like, to meet people and, like, share things together. Yeah. Well, sadly I haven't been able to, like, give a talk, this year, so far due to personal issues. But very much looking forward to get back to it, at the end of the year and next year, for sure.
Alexander Lichter:
I mean, there's still a few CFPs open here, and they're also, Julien, another fellow Nuxt core team member, also was on here already, episode about Nuxt Server Components also linked, of course, also asked me recently, like, hey. Do you know some, like, open conferences around the end of the year? Maybe, like, oh, yeah. You spoke there and there. How about that?
Alexander Lichter:
Because it's it's so much fun in the end. As you said, it's like you don't know if it's something for you until you, like, really tried it out. And I don't know for me, like all these conferences is I love like, of course, giving talks and being a stage every now and then also MCing, but like just getting in touch with the people discussing the talk content or just, yeah, chatting about Vue and Nuxt and all that is it's just so much fun. And also it gives, like, lots of insights and, like, how people work, what people do, what people try. So it's yeah.
Alexander Lichter:
It's lovely.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. It kinda reconnect here to the community. So I like what people are actually like up to is Nuxt and like other one in JavaScript and development in general. But yeah, like, for the end of the year, I mean, looking forward to Azure Jestron too. So like crossing fingers that they want my talk there.
Alexander Lichter:
That would be lovely. Yeah. I also submitted, of course. Well, giving it a try. Let's see.
Lucie Haberer:
You also submitted?
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. But Let's let's see if it will work out or not. I was there last year, and it was it was really, really nice. Big shout out.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, like, most conference all conference they've been to, like, were really lovely. So, like, our organizers are all, like, awesome. So
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. Everybody's, like, trying their best, of course. I mean, it's it's it's also, like, it's it's not too easy to just spin up a whole conference, especially, like, 2 day conferences, like, users Amsterdam or also the Vue.js DE conference, where we, by the way, also have a little discount code in the description called DEJAVUE. Yeah. Just use it for 10% off because, some people will be there.
Alexander Lichter:
Michael's sadly not this year. Maybe next year. I'll be around there. Some other guests before Evan will, like, do a little remote q and a and so on and so on. And, yeah, you should also submit for for next year, Lucie, a 100%.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. I should submit next year. I've never been to Berlin, so that's what they're purchasing.
Alexander Lichter:
Actually, it's it's this year, actually, it's not in Berlin. It's in Bonn. Maybe it's in Berlin.
Lucie Haberer:
That talks around now. No.
Alexander Lichter:
Like, it it was in Berlin before. So this is, like, hey. Let's, switch locations because there's so many nice cities in Germany, I heard. And it's I can't complain. It's closer to the Netherlands.
Alexander Lichter:
So it's, yeah, that's good, and it's it will be lots of fun as as usual.
Alexander Lichter:
So, yeah, conferences conferences are really great. And I can also, like, just recommend everybody. Go out there, talk to people, sing with local meetups. I feel like that's kind of, like, died a little bit after COVID.
Alexander Lichter:
It's really sad that there's, like, lots of people not that active anymore, but maybe they're, like, really good just JavaScript meetups where you can all talk with all the people in the JS ecosystem or, like, general front end development even there. Why not giving a talk about Vue? Because, well Yeah.
Lucie Haberer:
I I I don't know what killed meetups, Like, is it the people or is it the company's team name?
Alexander Lichter:
I think it's a bit of both. Like, I mean, these are all run by volunteer volunteers. Right? Like, okay, in COVID, you did it all, like,
Lucie Haberer:
Remote.
Alexander Lichter:
Remote. Exactly. So and and then, okay, people get back to office. Now it's, like, hybrid a little bit here and there. And then, of course, the budgets for companies like, hey.
Alexander Lichter:
We host it. Let's see. Maybe some organizers also during COVID had, like, other responsibilities, maybe had issues as well. So, yeah, that sadly, it really shrank a bit, but I I hope to see, well, that coming up again because I I went to a lot of meetups also, like like, not only Vue meetups, also, like, general ones because it's super interesting you meet people outside of your bubble and well, can talk with them about the all the the newest things in in web development and whether you should use const or let, for example. No.
Alexander Lichter:
I'm kidding. But, yeah, it's it's really good.
Lucie Haberer:
Tabs or spaces?
Alexander Lichter:
Oh, oh, yeah. The discussion will go on forever and ever. But yeah, I think that's also something it's it's like, I've been to a couple of meetups this year, for example, in in Belgium, to like the BeJS, and the BelVUE crossover, that was, around in Ghent. That was really nice. And, of course, in the Netherlands, just, well, one train ride away or one bike ride if you really want to.
Alexander Lichter:
So, that's, yeah, that's really good. And go there, take a look, close like, chat with your your with your fellow mates and, see what's going on. And by the way, when will be the next Vue.js Paris?
Lucie Haberer:
Well, I have no clue. I know there was, like, a a big conference, like, the, actually TED Talk inspired conference in Paris, like, in June, but, like, for JavaScript. Well, so unfortunately, I didn't, like, make the cut because, like, they were, like, sounded like doing, like, a a high end conference of sorts. So well, I I don't like it. I was a bit too late to submit to that, I guess.
Lucie Haberer:
But, yeah, I guess, next year. And I don't know if it's, like, if there is a Vue.js Paris going on. Like, maybe that's something for, to ask Eduardo about.
Alexander Lichter:
Yes. Definitely. I like, I saw something on Twitter of, like, hey. There will be another edition. I think this was, also JavaScript in Paris, also very active.
Alexander Lichter:
So, yeah, Elise and Eduardo, maintaining that. And, yeah, always also always looking for first people. So if you're in Paris and around, that's that's worth just submitting an issue in the GitHub repository and going for that.
Alexander Lichter:
But, yeah, coming coming back to you. So you you contributed to to Nuxt.
Alexander Lichter:
You are still contributing to open source. You joined the Nuxt team. So what would you say are your, let's say, responsibilities, on the team? Where you're like, okay, this is this is something, I wanna look into. Is there even something that specific?
Lucie Haberer:
Well, the next thing is, like, quite like embracing, like, freedom. Like, everyone's welcome to work on whatever they feel inspired to. So back in the day, I was working on the links, components. I was working a bit on the documentation. Then I worked a bit on the modules. So lately, I've done, like, some, like, really smallish work on the module utilities, like, to prepare for Nuxt 4. So I'm still like, thinking like special care, like, to next modules. Well, to my own extent, because that's the part of Nuxt I more like fluent with. If you bring me to all, like the Vite and like Nitro stuff, it gets lost a bit quicker. But yeah, like, I know, for instance, the code base is quite getting quite big and, like, with all, like, the UnJS and, like, Nitro and everything.
Alexander Lichter:
Lots of lots of packages as well. Yes.
Lucie Haberer:
That's true. Lots of things, like, to keep up and, like, all of my notifications on GitHub, and I have quite a host. Wow.
Alexander Lichter:
I I I can't. I have, like, 3 k or something. It's
Lucie Haberer:
Oh, no. I I was like, well, I'm like a 0 inbox type of person. So
Alexander Lichter:
I wish. I like, until until I think, like, a month ago, I had, like, 3,000 unread emails. Like, I I read them as in I will read them later. Now I'm, I think, down to 12 or something. So I'm, like, a friend of him pushed me there.
Alexander Lichter:
So I'm quite kind of happy. Yes. 3 even by now. So it's good. But just there's just so many things.
Alexander Lichter:
But with GitHub, I I can't. I follow, like, Nuxt. I follow a few modules that I'm, like, I I think right now, it's for me important to read the issues to try them. But, other than that, it's, like, yeah, when whenever it feels like because it's, yeah, it's it's too much.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Well, of course, like, there's, like, something, like, it's an issue, and I guess, like, someone, like, explained their their issue. I'm, like, well, I gave, like, a quick walk through, but, like, I can't, like, answer it. Like, I watched it on most of the time. I can't answer.
Lucie Haberer:
So Yeah.
Alexander Lichter:
But, I mean, it's not only about answering. Right? Just the the good part. It's it's a lot also about, hey. Okay.
Alexander Lichter:
Here are some some ideas you can try out or maybe just, okay, where's the reproduction in the classic? Or, like, just just helping with some some pointers or even saying, oh, yeah. Look here. We have a similar issue to track. Check that out.
Alexander Lichter:
So, I mean, of course, this this all helps already because then it's less for the people who go through all these issues as well.
Lucie Haberer:
But, yeah. So many modules, which are the things I master the most, and then I try to keep an interest in everything else to my own extent. But, in all sense, I I missed a bit developing, like, just websites with Nuxt. Js because I'm working at Prismic as a developer experience engineer, which means I work on the experience of people making websites. But I don't make websites myself that much.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, I make my websites, of course, make, like, some, like, funny and, like, websites on my end also. But, like, I haven't been working on, like, a real, like, SSR website and, like, ecommerce stuff, like, in ages.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. I mean, fair. That's that's not what your what your main job is. That's true.
Lucie Haberer:
Of course. And, that's why I also like to get back, like, to the very beginning of this chat is, like, I'm happy, like, when I work on courses because I'm like, yeah. Like, let's work on an actual, like, ecommerce website. And I can I know it's just for a course, but at least, like, it gets me, like, exploring a bit more, like, things that I am not touching everything?
Alexander Lichter:
It's also a bit like, hey. Let's actually build something again. I'll just make the experience for people building stuff better. And I think it's so important to do that. Like, also with with Michael, we had these these chats and even Michael as well with with Matt, for example, from LearnVue about it's it's so nice to get some, let's say, actual project experience of, like, okay, let's actually build things in dogfooding.
Alexander Lichter:
Okay. Hey. That's the framework. Oh, this could be better. Maybe I just raised an issue.
Alexander Lichter:
I might oh, here, this this, like, that that could be directly fixed in there. Here's missing some documentation. And of course, also just like, hey. I built something. It's there.
Alexander Lichter:
I can show it to people and, like, hey. This is this is it. Because it's it's amazing. It's like all the people using, for example, Nox or also in your case, like, using Prismic, they have a better experience now. But to make that, like, quantifiable is is really difficult.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. And so that's why also, like, on my end, like, I try to allocate sometimes, like, service times to, like, personal projects of mine. Because I know that, like, when I'm building, like, things, that's when I get ideas for, like, contributing to eventuals because, like, I get frustrated against, like, something. I guess, like, it's got an issue when using, like, something in that way and everything. And so those are all, like, opportunities and, like, longing for us of some sort and, like, inspiring, like, to try and, like, to make things better for everyone.
Lucie Haberer:
Because, like, monkey patching or, like, doing things like other ways, like, just solve the issue for you, like, on one time. But, if you can solve it for a new one, like, that's also cool.
Alexander Lichter:
Absolutely. And I mean, I think a lot of contributions come from that. And I I see that in issues and pull requests all the time. It's like, okay, I have an issue and to solve that, okay, I patch it on my own. And there are some scenarios where the patch is, of course, nice for you, but not enough for, like, the general solution.
Alexander Lichter:
But going that extra step and say, okay, I I have the problem. I know about the problem the best right now because, well, it's mine, at least for the specific case. And then just going further saying, how can I solve it in general? Just like giving some suggestions or even just saying, that's an issue. Here's my solution.
Alexander Lichter:
This is why, like, why is the problem? This is how it solves it. That's already, like, great help in my opinion to just, like, even get people started to, oh, that's the thing. People will try to use it like that. Maybe it's like, oh, you shouldn't use it like that at all, or, oh, wait.
Alexander Lichter:
That that's a case I didn't consider. So just, like, making people aware of that is already a big benefit.
Alexander Lichter:
So you you already mentioned, you you work as a DX engineer as your your main job. Also, there, of course, like, we we all probably all of our listeners know about that. But just to mention, of course, we're not, like, employed as, like, being part of the Nux core team. Like, this is not something we we get, like, I don't know, hourly rate for or something like that.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. It's not like that
Alexander Lichter:
it's it's so nice to see that, like, so many people in the core team, they have, like, different, let's say, source of incomes from, like, people doing open source the whole day, like, Anthony, for example, Daniel, Pooya as well. Also from people like like you and also Julien have, like, a day job and also people going, like, all all freelance and doing open sources, like, yeah, on the side even though on the side is not exactly correct.
Lucie Haberer:
So yeah. So well, how do I make, like, my open source, like, sustainable in some way? But, well, that's a big word for, like, the small amount of open source I do. But, anyway. Yeah.
Alexander Lichter:
But how do you do it? Like, how do you do open source, like and also having a day job and also having a life besides that?
Lucie Haberer:
So so yeah. So basically, like, I'm working at Prismic as a Developer Experience Engineer, and there I'm like the head of open source of the company. That means that I can do like open source for Prismic, which doesn't mean I can just like pay by Prismic to do open source. I'm paid by Prismic to do open source and the benefit of Prismic, which in the vast majority of my time is just, like, creating SDKs for Prismic. So, like, I create, like, a bunch of SDKs for Prismic.
Lucie Haberer:
I create the Nuxt module for Prismic, for example. And I do all of those. But like every time, for example, like, hey, like, it would be nice, like, to integrate into that thing better. And like, maybe, like, we can, like, help them, like, add this framework, achieve their goal faster, for example. We had the case, like, earlier on with Astro.
Lucie Haberer:
Like, we really needed them, like, to provide a way to do server side rendering, like, on some roads and stuff like that. And so the beginning it wasn't possible with Astro. So, like, we kind of, like, saw, like, how we could, like, help them, like, achieve that goal on their own map, like, faster or, like, contribute to it and things like that. And, yeah, I'm really happy that, work for a company that values this and sees that as, like, something, strategic and, like, beneficial for everyone, like, to, yeah, like, contribute, I would say, of, like, just code base that is, like, purely owned by Prismic.
Alexander Lichter:
It's super interesting. Like, in the last episode, we had, Dan and Zoe from Sidebase on there, like, an agency, and they do SIDESTREAM. So they do, for example, the Sidebase knocks the off package and so on. They were also talking about how open source benefits the company. And now it's really interesting to see that from a different angle because, I mean, Prismic is is a product based company.
Alexander Lichter:
Right? Like, so you you have you you have a headless CMS, so to say. And, of course, then, open source has a, like, a different, well, also different goal in a way. Like, you want it to be easier for developer to use your product. You want it to make more accessible no matter which framework you use, of course.
Alexander Lichter:
So it's it's really interesting to see that this is also a way that open source can benefit a company, in this case, with a product focus and not as much with an, let's say, agency focus.
Lucie Haberer:
Prismic, as a company, you know, like, that's selfish, that wants to make money and everything, we want it to be compatible, with, like, the technologies people use.
Alexander Lichter:
Of course.
Lucie Haberer:
And, well, like, turns out, like, most of the technologies are, like, open source because all that stuff actually, and that's, like, great. Yeah. Like, there's, like, is real , like, there's, like, the Prismic, like, area and there's the open source area. Like, those, like, matches at one point. And this is all like an area of opportunity as well.
Lucie Haberer:
Like, as Prismic, like, we when we work within that area, like, we benefit both the community and both Prismic in the same way. And that's also, like, why Prismic, like, when I go to conferences and I go to talk about the Nuxt modules, like Prismic is like, Yeah, like, you can go and, like, don't need to put days up for them. Like, We got you covered and just spread the love of, like, Nuxt and Nuxt modules. Then, like, we're happy about you doing that. And that's really cool to be working for a company that, like, understands that.
Lucie Haberer:
And, like, you're like, yeah. Like, it's cool that this is, like, just contributes to Open Source because, that's also good for us as a company in a way.
Alexander Lichter:
A 100% also. I mean, it once also shows, like, okay, you work at a company and that, as I said, it values open source, it values people also going to conferences, speaking or just attend like, quote unquote, just right, but attending, like, well, like, broaden their horizon, learn more. And that's also something like, people will see these values of a company then as well. And it's like, okay, maybe if I wanna work there or maybe even wanna use the product a product, give it a try. It's really cool.
Alexander Lichter:
And then if they say, okay, let's try the CMS, they see, okay, the better the integration is, the more the developers who will work with that because they have to integrate it, they will they will like it, of course. They're like, hey, it's super easy. And then it's word-of-mouth or it's just like, okay, it worked well once we have a couple more project. For example, in the agency, we're like, okay, I need to handle CMS for all the content. Then it's easy to say, like, let's continue with that.
Alexander Lichter:
It works well. Why not?
Lucie Haberer:
Exactly. One way my company, like, Prismic allows me to do that is that, well, I'm working on Prismic. That's one thing. But, as we've been talking about, I'm also, like, a Nuxt core team member. And, for example, like, there's no like, it's today understandable, like, from Prismic Point of view.
Lucie Haberer:
Like, when we have the Nuxt core team meeting and stuff like that, that are happening during the work day that I well, like, I stopped working for Prismic and I go to those meetings. And that's totally fine, by Prismic. And, like, it's just, like, part of my regular shift and, like, everyone's happy with that. And so that's really awesome.
Alexander Lichter:
That's pretty cool. And, like, do you have, let's say, dedicated time to say, okay, then I work in open source and then not? Or is it more like?
Lucie Haberer:
We don't have, like, things like, Hey, like, it's Friday afternoon, so, like, you can do open source and stuff like that. We don't have things like that. We have our projects. If they if they involve, like, open source things, we we do open source. If they don't, they don't.
Lucie Haberer:
We try that sometime to set something like, yeah, like, Friday afternoon, this is for open source. But, like, we we can stick to it because, like, I don't know, like, how you how you feel. To me, like, it's not something I can, like, sit at my desk and be like, Hey, I'm gonna do Open Source right now. And that's not something I can do like that. Like, to me, I need, like, to encounter issues, to be inspired by things, like, to make better.
Lucie Haberer:
And so I can't just say, Yeah, like, Friday Afternoon is for Open Source because that doesn't work for me. So, yeah, like, we couldn't stick with that. And, but yeah, like, every time there's like something like, let's involve the open source, like, we're more than happy, like, to take some time away and like to contribute to, like, the community. For example, like, to build our SDK, we use a lot of, like, small packages that you might not have heard of, but like, from UnJS or like from, like, Sindre Sorhus users or like, Vorm or like all of us, like, being like open source agents. And, well, like, sometimes we were like, yeah, like, thing is, like, not working as expected or, like, this thing is an issue or, like, we think, like, this could be better and, like, we jump in and, like, try to make that work for everyone.
Lucie Haberer:
And that was the case, like, for UnJS with, like, Windows issues, for example, or, like, other stuff.
Alexander Lichter:
That's amazing. Also, like, giving the opportunity to contribute, of course, back and not just, like, fixing for yourself, as I mentioned before, and also not having, like, I mean, Friday afternoon, yeah, as I said, it's it's really difficult, but sometimes peep like, companies are like, okay. At 20% time, of course, like, you can take it quite flexible, but, like, 20% or, like, 10% of your work time you can use this. Like, okay. You can do some courses.
Alexander Lichter:
You can do open source work on something that's related to work, but not work itself. But if it's for you more on a, like, project based, like, hey. This has to be done. Let's see. Okay.
Alexander Lichter:
We want to have, like, some open source components or, like, okay. We want to use something. Oh, I use a package. Oh, it doesn't work. Then I quickly just do the PR to to fix it if possible.
Alexander Lichter:
Then I think that's a much better, like, more flexible and dynamic system for sure.
Lucie Haberer:
And I know that every time we're, like, building, like, a new component, like, not like a React component or a new component, they're just like a piece of code. We try to think like, hey. Like, if this tech can stand as a library of its own, like, well, let's just make it a bunch of tools for everyone, to use. Like, for example, like, we use, like, a Vite plug in to build our SDKs before shipping it to NPM. And so we build that Vite plugin like in house and like we open source it.
Lucie Haberer:
So like anyone can build like a SDK with them, like using Vite. And, for example, like I do on my own like, SDK, like that I make as an individual instead of Prismic. I use this one that we made at Prismic. And, that's something like, anyone, could use I was thinking as a main concern if you want to check it out.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. I mean, it's that's that's great. And there's also the spirit of open source. In the end, you're like, you have a few eyes on it, maybe even some contributions, and, it will it will help everybody using it.
Alexander Lichter:
And how how about, open source sponsoring?
Alexander Lichter:
Do you have, like, any anything in place? Like, hey. Let's maybe sponsor the packages that you mentioned that maybe, I don't know, they don't have enough funding to exist?
Lucie Haberer:
I'd love for Prismic to get like a share of our revenue to open source.
Lucie Haberer:
It's something we've been discussing for a long time internally. Like, 2 things. Like, we we are all aligned. Like, that's something we would be happy to do. We're just taking, like, a proper framework to make that happen.
Lucie Haberer:
Mhmm. Because one thing that would be well, as we say, like, to be important for us is, like, if we give back to open source, it has to represent our users. It's like all our users are using, like, technology A. Like, we might favor that technology, like, when giving back. Well, that's something like we're nothing is set in stone, but, like, basically, we're just trying to figure out, like, a framework to give that money as fairly as possible.
Lucie Haberer:
And, well, that's a long ongoing discussion we have on our end. But, yeah, we'll hopefully get there one day.
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. It makes sense. And I I also think, like, lots of companies eventually do that saying, hey. This is our stack, for example. Of course, for, like, a headless CMS might be a bit more tricky because it's not only your stack, it's the SDKs for different frameworks.
Alexander Lichter:
And also, as you said, your users as well. But in general, it's just like the first step is awareness. Like, right. Okay. We want to do that.
Alexander Lichter:
It is even like whereas like, okay, there's option to do that. And like, okay, you take action to we want to do that. Let's find the best way. And that might take a bit longer, but then at least it's it's fair. And I think it's a lot of, like, it's it's a good thing.
Alexander Lichter:
A lot of companies do it, of course, if possible, to to just have an option to fund open source project that then can continue working because, well, we've seen it in the past multiple times that, with more funding issues like Log 4 j and whatnot could have been avoided. Luckily, not that big in in the JavaScript ecosystem, the Log 4 j issue, but there there are countless more. Like, Core JS also a very, very typical, thing and so on so on. So I'm I'm happy to hear that this is, let's say, work in progress. And, if there are any news, definitely, keep keep us posted.
Alexander Lichter:
As a as a DX engineer, you also mentioned that, of course, Prismic is not only available for Nuxt. So you mentioned Astro already and lots of other frameworks. So do you also regularly work with, let's say, something like Next.js, Angular, or Svelte?
Lucie Haberer:
So, well, I'm thankful, like, at Prismic, I am the, Nuxt.js and Vue.js , like, you know, as the expert. My second colleague is React and Next.js expert. And actually the 2 of us. So, like, also someone from time to time working on Svelte, which are actually called, like, three core technologies we want to support at Prismic.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, honestly, thankfully, I mean, like, it's not like it's like a pain to work on React, but, it's not my capacity. But, yeah, I don't get to work on React often. So that's well, that's cool. And, like, my colleague is doing direct part, and I'm doing the Vue part. And, we're both doing, like, everything, like, node and agnostic, of course.
Lucie Haberer:
Mhmm. And that's built from time to time.
Alexander Lichter:
Sweet. So you you basically can stay in your, like, expertise area and, of course, then, like, the general work you can share and, like, collaborate together with. And
Lucie Haberer:
Not even that, like, a more like, I'm happy to to change, like, now and then to just, like, get another perspective. Like, we get to work, like, from time to time on the Prismic project itself, which, like, has a lot of, like, back end stuff and, like, stuff that we we don't choose, like, a lot when you're working with just with Nuxt, stuff like that. So it's cool, like, to just, like, take a step back, like, walk with, like, those kind of tools and, like, just, like, it kinda, like, resources you, like, refills your creativity. So, like, when you get back to your, main mission, like, you you're, like, full of ideas and, like, things like to improve?
Alexander Lichter:
Yeah. I think it makes, once again, a a lot of sense giving okay. If you're in your own bubble, of course, you see what other people are doing there. But just seeing, okay, how other people with different frameworks would achieve things. So just say now, okay.
Alexander Lichter:
Let's take a look at some other some other technologies and get an inspiration there or also just chatting with someone of different framework. To me, it always, like, it helps a lot. It adds a lot of benefits, because, of course, everybody in the Vue Nuxt bubble says, hey. Vue, amazing. Nuxt, so cool.
Alexander Lichter:
But I'm just saying, okay. What can other technologies do that might be might be interesting to see in in our ecosystem? Not saying we should copy that straight, like, 1 by 1, but just saying, okay. What why people pick these? What's, why people like jazex, for example?
Alexander Lichter:
Or why they dislike Vue components. And the I think there there are lots of valid points there. For example, people saying, oh, yeah. I like jazex because, like, it's it's fully type safe and Vue components, it's a bit trickier. And, yeah, these are these are fair points.
Alexander Lichter:
So it's it's really nice to have that kind of exchange.
Alexander Lichter:
Okay. Yeah. I think then we we talked about so many things throughout, like, from from open source, how you got into that, the Nuxt team, your work, how how open source works at your company. So, maybe the the last question, where can people follow you?
Alexander Lichter:
Of course, it's once again all in the show notes and in the description, but still, it's always good to mention it because people listen like, ah, yeah. That's it. I will type now.
Lucie Haberer:
Yeah. Well, it's easy. So I like to get, like, 2 or 4 things I'm doing is to go through my website. So it's, lucie.red, as the col, and Lucie with an e because I'm French. And, yeah.
Lucie Haberer:
Well, you can get her if you're on my website. Like, get my Twitter. Get the things I've been up to, and, yeah, learn more about me there.
Alexander Lichter:
Perfect. Yeah. Thank you so much for for coming on that episode. It was really lovely to talk for you, like, all these, like, big bandwidth of topics. And, yeah, definitely keep us posted how how things go with the the like, share to open source with maybe new modules to develop, or or other projects.
Alexander Lichter:
And, yeah, we're looking forward, of course, to have you on again. So thank you so much. And for for you out there, if you wanna check out the older episodes of DejaVue, we have lots of amazing other episodes. Maybe just start at episode 1 because they're still most of them are still relevant. Actually they're actually, they all are, so come on.
Lucie Haberer:
Let's binge-watch DejaVue!
Alexander Lichter:
Yes. Oh, I it's like, I I don't even wanna know how many hours of content there are. Maybe if someone wants to calculate it right now in the comments, definitely get a a big thumbs up. Nevertheless, maybe this is, not the newest episode, so check out the newer ones as well. And, nevertheless, thanks for joining, and stay tuned.
