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Join us on the Architecture Social Show as host Stephen meets Carlo Magni, an Architect and Associate Director at EPR Architects, to explore the intricacies of architectural leadership and career progression. They discuss the transition from technical roles to leadership positions, the importance of soft skills, and the challenges introverts face in leadership. Carlo also shares his personal journey, including his relocation from Italy to the UK, his passion for continuous learning, and his experiences with public speaking. Whether you're an aspiring architect or a seasoned professional, this episode offers invaluable insights into mastering both hard and soft skills in the architectural industry.
Creators and Guests
Host
Stephen Drew
Hello! I’m Stephen Drew, Founder of the Architecture Social—an online community and resource hub dedicated to helping professionals in Architecture, Design, Development, and Real Estate advance their careers. I’m here to connect you with insights, tools, and opportunities that lead to meaningful growth, whether you’re just starting out or ready to take that next big step.
What is Architecture Social?
Curated content, insights and opportunities designed to elevate careers and strengthen teams in Architecture and Design.
Carlo Magni
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[00:00:00]
Welcome to the Architecture Social Show
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Stephen Drew: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Architecture Social Show. Often we're talking about buildings, which is super important because this is Architecture, but as you know, we are all the time in the office, and you'll start your career at one point as a junior. Who knows, you'll get plunged into a project and over time, if you're doing really well, you'll get promotions.
And one day maybe your boss says, you need to now run a project and manage a team. And you'd be thinking, where in the university did we talk about running a team? I didn't know how to do it myself. So it would've been handy to have these conversations. And on that note. I wanna bring my guest in.
Introducing Carlo Magni: Architect and Leadership Coach
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Stephen Drew: Carlo Magni is an Architect at EPR, architects and Associate Director.
So he builds all these cool stuff and also on the [00:01:00] side helps people in particular with leadership training, especially for those who are a little bit more shy than people that talk too much like me. But on that note, I'm gonna have a breather now and say, Carlo. Carlo, how are you sir? Are you okay?
Carlo Magni: I'm good. Thank you, Steven. Thank you for having me. How are you?
Stephen Drew: I am really good. Now, Carla, we know each other for a while, but for the benefit of the audience, yeah. Why don't you say in your words a little bit about yourself on the, on the larger scale of like what you do in the industry, and then a little bit about what you do on the coaching quickly.
Carlo Magni: So, um, let's start with a more, less traditional way.
Carlo's Journey: From Italy to the UK
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Carlo Magni: Um, so I, I'm Italian. I'm Italian. Uh, I'm an introvert. I'm, I'm addicted to learning. I need to learn stuff in depth. So that's what I'm absolutely fixated with learning. So my first love has always been construction, construction, design, Architecture, engineering.
So [00:02:00] I, I, I became an engineer first, then an Architect. And I spent the last, uh, 17 years in, uh, in, in the construction industry on, that's my first love. But I also, uh, have a big passion and love for, for leadership, every, everything that goes from psychology to, to management and team management. So, as I said, 17 years in the construction industry.
Uh, I'm an associate director at EPR Architect in London. It's been seven years with, with EPR and, uh, you, you know, EPR is a, is a great company, great people, uh, fantastic projects. I mean, we go in residential, commercial hospitality. We do international hotel project now, which is extremely cool. Uh, anything that goes from 20 to 50 million budget to.
Hundred of million of budgets. So there is no limit. And, um, well, uh, you know, we have a very cool office in, uh, in, in Elephant is a, is a Victoria building, uh, Victorian building, completely refurbished by ourselves. [00:03:00] Uh, it was an orphanage, uh, at the beginning and, um. It really reflects, uh, if ER values, I mean the values of, uh, quality.
Quality from anesthetic point of view, quality from a technical point of view, the value of of sustainability. Think about we are, this is pretty impressive. We are one of the first UK office to be. Net zero carbon operation, which is pretty, pretty unique. Uh, the other big value is inclusivity. Um, I mean, from a inclusiveness point of view, we are very flexible, uh, indoor, uh, uh, spaces.
We have also outdoor, uh, spaces, uh, um, just nearby the, uh, Imperial War Museum and everyone coming in. I mean, the, the feeling is really welcoming is, is a great, great place to, to try to learn to develop, not just from a. Technical point of view, of course, but also from a soft skills point of view, from a human point of view.
And, uh, for example, we do mentoring. Mentoring is is a big thing for, for young professionals. And for me it's [00:04:00] something. Special, honestly, because, uh, I always been into, I need to learn, learn as much as possible. It's like a sponge I need to absorb by people around me, bosses, peers, colleagues, and people with more experience than me.
And then I joined the, uh, uh, the first cohort was years ago when I was a mentee and did mentee thing. And the, the. The year after. But also I started becoming a mentor and, and it was amazing. I mean, 'cause I, I'm so much into learning then. I need to share, I need to teach, I need to, to, to, to share with others, to mentor others.
And that's where I started to think about what, this is something I, I get energized with. I get, I get really into, wow, this is, this is something, because again, it is a, it is a mutual conversation, one-on-one setting, which is perfect for me as, as an introvert actually. And, um. Because I've always been in love with, uh, with construction, which, what, what it is basically, you, you build buildings, but the the most important thing, and as you mentioned at the beginning, you start [00:05:00] building relationship with people, which probably is even more important than buildings.
And then you realize, okay, what's. What's the, this thing about the human interaction with, with your colleagues, with your peers, with your teams, with your bosses with, and then it goes into consultants and clients and contractors and so on. So I started to read, really get interested in, in how these dynamic of teams and, and in, uh, interpersonal relationship works.
That's why. In, uh, uh, in, in the last decade I've been studying a lot and researching and, and going in depth of, of this, of this topic. And basically, uh, I got really serious in the idea to understand the human aspect of, of interactions. That's why. I am, I'm on a mission to translate cutting edge science into easy tips and advice to help first time managers and, and team leaders, particularly introverts, to improve their games in terms of confidence, leadership
status, and team performance.
And I do this with the one-to-one mentoring, coaching, bespoke training as well, [00:06:00] which is based on my experience
in, in working in, in team setup of any size, but also leading individuals, leading teams
and, and. it's not just my experience, it's also based on the latest science because again, I, I
study a lot latest researchers in, in the, um, organizational of psychology,
uh, field, let's say.
And uh, and, and it's amazing. I mean, there's so much you can learn from others.
There's so much you can, you can share and teach.
Stephen Drew: It's very, very interesting.
The Importance of Soft Skills in Architecture
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Stephen Drew: Maybe we'll jump into that because some people might have been familiar with the words soft skills.
Carlo Magni: Yes,
Stephen Drew: Then hard skills, and there's often a big debate online, which is more important. Some people can argue that those soft skills are really, when, when we talk about soft skills, it's like communication.
A few other things. Maybe you can give the robust, um, uh. Feeling of those, but then the, you've got other skills as well, which are important, such as software skills, which can and can't get you into a job as well. So maybe, first of all, can you [00:07:00] explain in your words what hard skills and soft skills are and, and which ones you feel are quite important and we'll flesh them out
together?
Carlo Magni: Well, if you need to, if you put it into context, so there are only three type of jobs. There is technical job, there is supervisory job. And our top level is strategy job, and everyone had to start somewhere. And most of the time we start from a technical job. So you are a doer. You need to do stuff, you need to learn how to do and, and then if you are good and you get promoted, you go into the supervisory, uh, level.
So you become a manager, you manage other people to. Do the job you used to do. And then if you are very lucky, you go into strategy level. So which is the very top, which is all about analytical thinking, decision making, and so on. Uh, so when, when we got to our, our skills, so our skills are, are technical skills, maybe software skills, learning a language is a, is a.
Uh, is art skill as well. So basically, just imagine you have a container, uh, where your skill set container [00:08:00] and the art skill, uh, container is, is hard. I mean, imagine you have a box, you put like, uh, art skills here and it's say, oh, I, I learned this software and, and the good thing. The easy thing with our skills is something you either know or you don't know.
So if you are good at doing something from a technical point of view, you are either good or you are very bad. I mean, there is no, yeah, kind of dunno. You, you know how to use Revit, you know how to use Navisworks or you don't. Uh, of course you can always improve, but the easy thing with art skills, again, you have this art container, you put boxes in it, and that's it.
The container doesn't change because as long as you learn something, you can put it on top and they can put it on top as long as you, you don't have memory problems. You can learn as much as you like from a technical point of view. So, soft skills, they are completely different because soft skills are interpersonal skills, uh, communication, public speaking, uh, presentations, uh, leadership, managing others, and, and, and dealing with, uh, difficult [00:09:00] conversations.
The main difference between our skill and soft skills is they change the way you are. Uh, think about we are, we have all our own personality, we have all our beliefs, uh, attitudes, habits. We have all our way to do stuff and to think and to to act. And when you learn a new soft skills, most of the time you need to change those things.
You need to change your beliefs. Sometimes you need to change your personality a bit. You need to stretch beyond your comfort zone. If you are an introvert like me at the beginning, if you are, uh, chairing a, a, a big meeting or if you need to speak in public, of course it, it bloody scary because again, it's, it's outside your comfort zone.
Therefore, learning new self skills is all about. Pushing beyond your comfort zone. And the more you push, the more you realize you are like a sponge. You can absorb and you can, you can learn more and, and you can change the way you thought about yourself. That's why it is, uh, uh, the, I dunno if you read the book about, uh, mindset, where it's about having a fixed mindset or having an open mindset.
Having an open mindset means that you [00:10:00] can always learn and grow. It's not something, learning is not just for kids, it's learning it for everyone. Uh, up to. Nine, 90 years, hundred years, whatever. I mean, there is no limit of how much you can learn. And soft
skills is a great, great investment for
everyone in any industry really.
Because again, to pass beyond your, uh, technical skillset, you need to learn and develop new soft skills or improve the one you have already. Again, people may be more,
um. They, they are born with certain skills of, of being more charismatic. But you can also learn how to be charismatic if you like,
but it's, it's not necessary.
You need to understand when to
use the, those skills and, and how to apply it. So again, being flexible
and being really open to, to learn use of skills is fundamentals, particularly in career development.
Navigating Leadership and Team Management
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Stephen Drew: Yeah, and let's go into that because I, I've, as you're saying, it's quite interesting you talked about the free. Jobs at the start, you know, the more technical, the more do, um, and then the, the other roles and when you're leading the teams and stuff. So it's quite [00:11:00] interesting. And do you think as well, especially people starting their career, it's more about those Initially it's more about the hard skills
because on recruitment I will get a lot of Architecture practices saying.
I need someone who's good at Revit and ready to go. And you experienced a little bit
of this when you moved from Italy to the uk. Do you have any thoughts on that, starting the career compared to further along, like you were saying?
Carlo Magni: So, um,
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Carlo Magni: um, yeah, that, that was my focus on when I moved from, from Italy to the uk. So I had already eight years of experience in Italy, so I wasn't like fresh from uni. I, I did
stuff.
Stephen Drew: your stuff.
Carlo Magni: Exactly. That's
Stephen Drew: built buildings.
Carlo Magni: Exactly. So, you know, I, I know all my stuff already. I've, I've done my equivalent of part one, part two, experience and everything.
And, and now I need to change, uh, country and which, which was the reason because I decided to do so at a certain point. I was, I remember was, uh, [00:12:00] can be pretty dramatic if you, if you would like to, to capture it this way, but I was sitting down in my, uh, in my, um, uh.
In my room, uh, and I was crying and my wife came in and said, well, what's going on?
Well, I don't think the job I'm doing is fulfilling. I don't think I expressing my passion, my expertise, my, my knowledge, my, my love for what I, I used to be very excited to in, in the job every day. So, and. Slowly. I started to convince myself I need, I needed to do a drastic change. I need to to go somewhere else.
I need to go. I've always been dreaming, oh, I want to go into in the States, so I want to go where you speak. You speak English, because I mean, I've always been fascinated about the states, the movies, and Hollywood and so on, which is a. Uh, pretty stereotypical. Okay. And then I say, okay, what, what's something similar but slightly closer and easier?
Because I thought that at that time, that was before Brexit, so it was relatively easier. I said, okay, let's try the uk. And I fell in love with London. I mean, for me personally, I'm a [00:13:00] Londoner. Uh, I'm grateful for everything I've learned that I've been given in this country For me. In London, it's all about London.
I'm still excited about the city. So when I came in I said, okay, what I need, I need uh, English language and I need Revit English language. I was pretty rubbish. 'cause at university and at school, I always studied French. I never learned a single word in English. The only thing I've learned probably is through video games, which you can imagine how, how much you can do in an interview if you have just a very basic, so I spend, uh, more than one year learning English through podcast, audio podcast of, of.
People speaking in, uh, in English from, I remember one guy from San Francisco, one from LA and one from from the uk. And I started to note, oh, this different, different access. The British, uh, English is quite different to what I'm used to, to learn. Not much. Um. Then I go, okay, I got English sorted out and that let's do with reit.
I have a bit of experience before with REIT in Italy, but I need to [00:14:00] up my game. So same thing. So I spent every single lunchtime, every single weekend evenings to study REIT properly with the, with the training online and so on. And, and then I came here. I was ready. I I got English, I got ready. There's nothing can stop me.
And I was, I mean, at that time I didn't know about recruiters. I didn't even know recruiter existed at that
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Carlo Magni: So I went, I went office by office. I think I did 50 Architectural practice in London, one by one, delivered my art copy of, of CV. And I got, I think in a, in a week I got, uh, five interviews. I got three offers.
I was really excited. Again, this was before, before Brexit
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Carlo Magni: and um. And then I was, oh, we go, I got the job, so let's, let's, let's start a new life, new life, new country, new place, whatever. And I realized that, well, I got my art skills. But there is another level here. There is another. Dimension of understanding [00:15:00] exactly what's going on because at the, at the very beginning, I really struggled with the language, although I wa I thought I was good enough.
But when you have been asked to do something where you've been asked to do something and then explain to someone else, well, you need to need to understand exactly what they're talking about. And therefore, I started to pay. Man attention to every type of conversation and communication that happened directly to me, but also around me.
And then you start noticing different shades of the, the way things are are said and why are said and so on. So you start learning, okay, there is this other dimension which is communication, which is not just, you know, the language you speak that. You, you get, uh, understood and you, you get what you ask for.
No, no. It's not necessarily what you say, what other people hear. So therefore I enter into, okay, that, that's another game here. It's not about try to express myself, but it's also understanding and try to influence. The way, uh, um, I communicate and the way other people communicate to me. And then you start adding emotions in [00:16:00] it.
You start to add, uh, and add other dimensions of, of, of communication, which is not just verbal. And then that's when I, this was about 10 years ago, this is when I really started to go out into communication. Uh, learning of communication skills, soft skills, understanding, uh, difficult conversations between colleagues, especially in, in the workplace.
And, um. And then I realized, well, I need to invest more in soft skills because again, I got my Revit thing. And then you learn and Navi works. You learn whatever software you want to learn, and then you have your technical, um,
um, statutory, uh, regulation thing,
which is, is what slightly different than than Italy.
Then you got that. But again, these are all skills, the, to up your game, into progressing your career. Definitely you need
to invest more in soft skills. And, and that's the. the.
best thing ever because again, you start
to change, you start to, to, to question the, the way you always been. Oh, I've always been a shy person.
I'm a big guy, but I, [00:17:00] I always been shy. So therefore, you need to try to, to stretch beyond your comfort zone. And when you start stretching beyond your comfort zone, you start to grow. You start to change, and, and then it becomes an Abbott.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting and I agree. I think soft skills, especially when it comes to management and your roles, change is, becomes more and more important and those tick boxes of the Revit, you've, you've kind of, you've done them at the start, so
what was your experience then?
Challenges and Mistakes in Leadership
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Stephen Drew: Uh, because you mentioned this, well, you're an introvert, but for the benefit of talking about leadership, your first leadership role, so you've gone from being a team
member to a team leader.
Personally, I found it quite daunting
at first. You're like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? However, how has your experience as a team leader in the first time.
Carlo Magni: So, um, again, I, I, I always been into learning stuff, so, and I knew that a certain point that has to happen 'cause it's, is a, is a [00:18:00] kind of a natural progression when if you are good at doing your your thing, uh, if you're good at your, your technical stuff, then it's very like you get to do the leadership stuff.
Um. Which is simply maybe leading a small team or leading a couple of individuals and then leading the project and so on. And I, I wasn't using at the beginning again, because you're asking question, are you starting to go into the, uh, lack of confidence mode? You start to go into the imposter syndrome mode and you have to asking yourself, oh, why is me?
I say how, how others are perceiving me? How, what, what, what other thinking of me Now I'm here in a position
to, to lead, uh, and, and to take decision for my
team. Uh, how does it work? So I made, I made so many
mistakes. I mean the, you learn by
by mistakes. There's no way. And no, no one comes in first time, just, just nailed it.
No, no. You do mistakes all the time. And, uh, and, and I think the, the important thing is to be flexible and, uh, and understand that you are just learning. I mean, [00:19:00] no, go. It's fine. You did a mistake, you learn from the mistakes and then continue.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Yeah. One of the epiphanies for me, when you're managing, at first, I almost think this is the way you manage. One person, they must be the same for other people, but actually people are very different and people respond to different things. Do you, do you have any thoughts on that, Carlo, if I'm right or wrong, or
Carlo Magni: Oh, uh, yeah. Yes, yes. That's the biggest thing ever. I mean, um, if there, if you do any research, any, any series research, not just gurus, uh, mambo jambo stuff, but if you do any series research, um, in science, there is just one absolute in terms of uh, uh, things that happens all the time. And the first is thing people are different.
People are different. There's no other way to say, oh, let's generalize on everyone likes to do this thing. Every, everyone hates micromanagement. Micromanagement. Everyone likes like a transform [00:20:00] missional leadership. No, no, no. Everyone is different. So you cannot say, everyone does this, everyone. Is different.
Everyone is unique. So the first thing is understand first of all who you are. By, by who you are means not just what do you think about yourself, but understand also what other people think. Not necessarily think about yourselves in terms of judgment, but in, in the professional environment. Your reputation, your, the way you come across with others is fundamental.
So therefore is understand yourself first. Deeply and seriously, not just, uh, do like a horoscope type of thing, and, and then understand that everyone around you is different. So de definitely you need a different approach with everyone. Of course, it's, it takes energy, it takes time. You cannot come in and say, okay, this is my way of doing
things and everyone needs to submit to my way, to, to, uh, uh, uh, to
lead.
Which, which is, is a dictatorship,
kind of is, is actually the opposite. You need to adapt and [00:21:00] understand
who is in your team. What are their strengths? What are their talents? What is their inclination in terms of helping in a, in a way or the other? Of course, needs. You need to set a structure. You need to set kind
of very simple rules that makes the the team manageable, but you need to understand exactly what you're working with because, uh, I agree with you.
Everyone is different. There's no other way.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, that was one of the biggest mistakes or the epiphanies that I learned. Um, now I know that you've, you've done a bit of research as you're saying, and you've also worked with a lot of people, as have I, I mean, what's the biggest mis, uh, other mistakes that you see team leaders making, especially within Architecture that we should think about?
Maybe improve on,
The Value of Time Management and Delegation
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Carlo Magni: Well, um, this is a very basic error and, and, and everyone does in every industry, particularly architects. Um, because most of the time Architect tend to be very bad in time management and, and managing a, [00:22:00] managing a team takes time.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Carlo Magni: So there is no way you can lead, uh, run your project and then you have things to stuff to do, respond emails or speaking with clients, consult, whatever.
And also, on top of that, you are managing a team well, you need to allow for time to do that. Otherwise, you are neglecting everyone in your team. Everyone has no direction. So the first basic error, I dunno why it's not mentioned enough, is you need to make sure that you have the time to manage your team, which means that you need to explain to your bosses that.
You need also time to manage your team and therefore they, they, you shouldn't be completely loaded for whatever you need to do. That's why the art of delegation is so important because you either do your normal job, you get more responsibility, you are leading a team, you are neglecting your team, and you are trying, trying to do everything yourself, or you start to understand, okay, I need.
More time to spend with my team to understand them, to to know them. And then I will leverage the knowledge I
have from, from everyone. [00:23:00] The differences, the uniqueness they have, The the the value they bring on the
table, and then I will delegate in a way that works with them, and it works for the entire team.
But time is, again, so many people, you, you may be amazed how many people thinks, uh, oh, I'm doing my project, and by the way, I'm leading a team, but I have no time to lead a team. Well, that's, that's the point. So if you are leading a team, you need to take the time, the stand, sit down, have one-to-ones with everyone.
You need to know each other. And, uh, again, time is, is one of the basic errors. Many, many people don't consider.
Stephen Drew: Well, and also overtime, working overtime is one of the frustrations
Carlo Magni: Yes,
Stephen Drew: members, isn't it? You know,
Carlo Magni: Yeah. Yeah. I remember. I remember I used to, uh. Put together the list of things I need to discuss with the team. Like on Sunday night, Sunday night I had like a couple of hours to go through the list and so on. But actually you can do it in on Friday, Friday afternoon, and then you are ready for Monday.
So again, that is like you are doing your job. You are try always, uh, [00:24:00] especially
for for young team leaders, but where you are still in the mode, they, they, they try to compete and try
to, to demonstrate that they, they bring value all the time with their bosses and in
front of the clients and so on. Sometimes they tend to neglect the
team. 'cause again, it's all about yourself.
It's all about trying to be successful as much as possible. And but also your team members, they're trying to be successful, so you need them just to allow them to, to be successful. And therefore is a, is a, is a group effort, is a team effort.
It's not just yourself try to win and the others are, try to help you win even more. So is is the opposite actually.
Stephen Drew: Yeah,
Not Everyone Needs to Be a Leader
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Stephen Drew: I feel like sometimes, myself included, initially, I wanted to chase being a leader. You know? I was like, that's what you need to do. I have a controversial opinion that not everyone needs to be a leader. It's okay not to be a leader as well. I mean, how do you feel about it? If
Carlo Magni: Ab, absolutely,
Stephen Drew: yeah. Do.
Carlo Magni: uh, I mean, I mean there is a bit of a pressure. I mean, um, um. [00:25:00] So many people think that you are either a leader or you, you failed at your job because that's the on, that's the normal progression. And there is a bit of pressure in, in Architectural industry by any single industry where the only way to progress is become a a, a manager.
And then when you're a manager, you're leading a team, you're leading a bigger team, and then eventually, if you're lucky, you're going to the strategy level as we discussed before, you have technical. Super, um, supervisory level and then strategy level. But there are still people that they are confident to stay into, uh, the tech, their technical role for the entire career.
Which is, which is fine. I mean, there's no problem. And I remember, uh, when I was working in, um, in aviation years ago, there was a guy which, uh, was working on big, big, uh, airports like, uh, uh, Etro, T five and T two, and then Manchester Airport and big airports are. Big, big public spaces, uh, which in a way they can, they are similar in terms of function, apart from the [00:26:00] aviation side to commercial buildings, to, sorry, to to shop malls.
'cause basically you have lot of shops, a lot of services and, and so on. And for years he focuses on doing toilet packages. This guy was called toilet queen. He was absolutely happy. I mean, it was like, oh, we don't like pigeon holes. We don't like putting people doing the same thing. We want them to, to, to vary, to do different stuff.
Yes, many people want to do different stuff, but also because we are all different, there are also, uh, people and great professionals, they, they prefer to do the same thing over and over again and become absolutely masters and experts in what they're doing. And there's nothing wrong. I mean, we cannot dictate someone, oh, you, you would be happier if you do something different.
Well, you don't know. They can only tell you, I'm happy if I do this. I'm happy if I do something else. But I'm a bit against saying, oh, everyone likes this. Everyone would like to do this. No, no, no. You need to ask. You never know what people, what people are, are trying to [00:27:00] do or what they really
love doing.
Because their strengths is mainly in a technical aspects and they have, they have no interest to lead the team. They have no interest to taking more responsibility. Maybe they are fine with what they're doing.
And again, if. The first thing is ask them and then if you want to help and grow and
push, yes, you can push, but don't push someone, some don't push someone.
It has no idea to change. It doesn't want to do anything. I mean, the the best advice you can have from any coach in the world. Don't try to work and convince someone to change. If they don't want to change, there's no way you, you can change a person if doesn't want to.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, that's so true and uh, I
think it's important we talk about that. I've met people that have been a team leader actually, and gone, you know what, it's not for me. I don't want to do it anymore. And That's okay too. At least that person knows.
Carlo Magni: honest. Yeah,
Stephen Drew: Yeah, I agree. But, um, yeah,
Debunking the Myth of Universal Leadership
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Stephen Drew: the, the, the myth that everyone should be a team leader.
I agree. I think that's just something that we built into ourselves. Are there any other myths [00:28:00] or preconceptions that you think people put on themselves? Carlo?
The Real Managers Study
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Carlo Magni: Um, well there is this, similar to this, this, um, there is this famous research where is, is, is one of the most important research of the last 15 year, 50 years in a, in the organization of psychology. But it's not. It's not well known. People forgot about, what was this research? Basically they studied four years, I think three, four years.
500 different managers, almost 500 different managers in different industry at different levels. And, and, and, and this ended up in a book, which is called Real Managers.
Effective vs. Successful Managers
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Carlo Magni: And they realized that there were two different type of managers, the one that were successful, the one that got promoted very fast, the one that they, they grew and, and then, um.
Raised up in their career ladder, and they are the one that actually were more into being effective, and they were called effective managers were the one that were working with their team and they were really getting the business going because they were getting results, they were getting the job done, [00:29:00] and they realized.
How these two type of, uh, managers spend their time and they realize they spend their time completely differently. So, and, and again, there's no one is good, one is bad, but if you are more interested in, in, in career progression and grow and, and take responsibility and, and then get up to excuse as soon as possible to the strategy level, well, you need to focus on the way you communicate.
So the, the successful managers. They were communicating more upstreams, they were communicating with their bosses with, with the, where they were doing a lot of networking. They would spend most of their time on the phone speaking with, with consultants, clients and, and, and people around them. While this, the, um, effective managers, they were speaking mainly with their team.
They were looking exactly at what the problem, uh, where to solve, how to solve is try to be efficient in delivering results. And they were the one that were.
Running the actual
core value of the business. Again, in
any, uh, in any business, you need need both of these type of, uh, positions. But the research shows
that it's [00:30:00] very rare for someone to be both.
Actually, the two, uh, type of, uh, uh, managers overlap less than 10%. But again, the, the, the main difference is the way they spend their
time. One is with more communication, uh, upward, and the other one was more communication with the team and try to to, to resolve issues and problems.
Stephen Drew: Mm-hmm. It's interesting. I never, I never knew of those two. I do quite like the word effective, but at the start I mentioned as well your, one of the things that you're passionate about is leadership for introverts.
Leadership for Introverts
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Stephen Drew: Now I think that the preconception is that a leader should be extroverted and that it's not the obvious choice for an introvert to be a, a team leader.
Do you have any thoughts about that then Carlo?
Carlo Magni: Well, it is, uh, it is true. It is absolutely true. So again, science confirmed that if you keep, uh, still the distinction successful and, and, and effective manager. Um, [00:31:00] in science, these are called emergent leader and effectively leader. So, emergent leader is someone that comes up, I mean, uh, the, the person that is perceived like leader-like.
Stephen Drew: Okay.
Carlo Magni: And, and being extrovert is the biggest factor of someone being picked it up. Oh, this person is, is a leader because he is, you hear more than from him as a, from or from her, as a stronger voice, stronger presence, more assertive, while this person is shy, doesn't speak to you much so. I don't, the perception of from, from everyone as a natural perception is, oh, this is less leader-like, and the other person is more leader-like.
So there is definitely, uh, and again, being an extrovert is the strongest component among the, the, the five big five personality trait where you are perceived as a leader, but it doesn't tell anything about if you be, if you will become an effective leader. Because again, if you are, um. If you are good at selling yourself again, extroverts, they tend to [00:32:00] be better than introverts in, in promoting themselves.
They, they, because I, and then we'll go into the, the real difference between introvert and extroverts, but from a, a leadership point of view, yes. Extroverted are, are picked up. Easier and, and, and is a, is a, is a simpler choice than, than picking up an introvert. But then when they are, uh, so therefore for introverts is more difficult to get into leadership positions when, when these two introverted expert are in leadership position then is.
Uh, strong belief is that introvert, uh, they have a big advantage because, because in order to get to that position, they already have the, to put the effort to stretch beyond their comfort zone. They need to do more than their natural, um, uh, the, the natural way to behave. Natural way to speak, natural way to present themselves.
So therefore, they've done already the effort. So they have. They already developed that habit to, to, to push beyond their, their first nature. While for [00:33:00] extroverts, sometimes it's natural, so they don't have to spend any effort. Therefore, when they are both in, in leadership position, the introvert person already knows that is all about pushing beyond your comfort zone, pushing to the extra mile, and most of the time they are more effective because they, they understand more.
Okay. It's all about growing. It's not growing just myself because. They tend to listen more. Others, they tend to understand more the people around them. And therefore, if you are self-aware enough and then you, you have this habit and this attitude to push and, and, and grow and learn all the time as much as you can.
While sometimes extrovert, again, this
is a generalization they tend to get, uh. Projected into a leadership position sometimes with, with no clue why they got there. Because they just came across, oh, well this guy, look, Howie, Howie speaks. How, how she behaves is, is more little like, so let's put her in this position and let's see how it goes.
Again, it's more difficult for introverts to, to step up to get promoted to a [00:34:00] leadership position. But then in terms of effectiveness, I think that introverts, they have a, another gear. Absolutely.
Stephen Drew: There you go. It's, it's sometimes it's the joke, isn't it? You gotta be careful of the quiet ones. Maybe they are. They could be the best
Carlo Magni: Yeah, exactly.
Stephen Drew: not always the loudest person in the room. Yeah.
Carlo Magni: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at, I mean, um. And, and it's not necessarily, uh, helpful to, to compare to big, big leaders or, uh, like Steve Jobs or Warren Buffet, like big, big names big. They, they made millions in corporate America because what they're doing at, at that level is strategic level. Um, so it's not necessarily, they're not necessarily leading a team, uh, day by day.
Uh. But they are, most of these people are introverts. Uh, again, it's all about the, uh, analytical skills to understand problems, to, to get, get down and, and try to understand exactly what's the, the core. Problem here and try to resolve it and try to involve your team as much as possible. Uh, that, that's a, that's [00:35:00] a massive difference again, because again, in, uh, in recent years, there've been more discovery of, of the quiet power of, of,
of very famous or very well, well known.
Effective leaders
were actually, people start to put into this dimension. Are they introvert or extroverts? Most of these are, are introverts. Again, they are quiet. They, they get job
done. They understand the problem. They don't make
a big, uh, drama of what works or what it doesn't. Well, extra extroverted people, they tend to express their emotion very, very, very, very easily.
And they tend to, um, uh, overdramatize stuff for themselves or for, for, uh, problems that are coming from the team.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Oh wow. Don't that I know it. I'm probably one of those as well. Um.
Public Speaking as an Introvert
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Stephen Drew: Jokes aside though, the other thing I wanted to talk about is because you mentioned as well, once or twice that you consider yourself an introvert, but yet you also
do public speaking, and so you've been at one or
two RIBA, uh, [00:36:00] RIBA events at the future leaders.
Well, more than a handful of times actually, so I'd love to know about that, but also. Public speaking it. I think even I, I know I talk
a lot now, but when I did the first podcast, I was very nervous, especially first conversation in person. I was like, oh, I've gotta speak in front of people. So tell us what you do on that front.
But what was it like first, first times as an introvert?
Carlo Magni: Um, right. So. Personally, I have this kind of dream. So I, I am, I'm an Italian. Okay? Uh, I, I grew up speaking English, I speak speaking Italian, and, and then when I, I turned 30, I realized, well, I dunno, I was single world. I mean, I, I probably knew a couple, but I cannot have a conversation with someone I speaking English.
So I, and then when I decided to come in the uk, uh, and I definitely to get serious about, um, so one of my dream was. The most amazing thing I can do in my life and is to deliver a [00:37:00] speech in front of an audience in English, which for anyone in the UK may sound like, well, that that's not a big dream. Well, for, for someone coming from a, from, from a different country, it, it may come across as a, as a simple thing, but is, is for me personally, was a, was a big thing.
It was a big deal. So, and in that time of my career, when I start to understand, okay, I need to invest more in soft skills. Communication is the biggest one because again, a architects, they, their job is communicate. There is a creative aspect. There is a technical aspect. But at the end of the day, you need to communicate.
If you have a good idea, if you have a good design,
if you don't know how to communicate it, it, it's worthless.
So communication is the biggest single, um, skill.
You can master to, to go be successful in any single job, not just Architecture, engineering, every single industry. So public speaking. So public speaking is one of the things you, you, you go, uh, you, you comes in your path when [00:38:00] you are focusing on improving your communication skills.
And I only, honestly, I was a bit surprised to, to see how many people never heard of Toastmasters. Have you even heard of Toastmasters?
Stephen Drew: have. I haven't been though,
Carlo Magni: Oh, there we go
Stephen Drew: Yeah, but people that do go to it have said very good things. And maybe, maybe, are you a Toastmaster
Carlo Magni: I, I not, no, no more. But in the past I've done a lot, and again, if you are. Interested in public speaking. And again, four architects is fundamental because we are lucky. We have drawings, sketches, 3D, CGIs, we have MO 3D models, physical models where you can present. And again, images and physical things are easier to communicate than anything else.
But if you don't have a story, if you don't, if you're not able to articulate a compelling story, uh, around what you are presenting, again, it's worthless. So communication is key. Public speaking is also another thing because, um. It is, it is not something natural. I mean, [00:39:00] again, even for extroverts, someone may think, oh yeah, introvert are, are not as good as extroverts in doing public speaking.
Well, if you pick up any, uh, extroverted person, you know, and you ask what's the most stressful thing you can do? And most of the time they will say, well, it's pub speaking in front of a public. It's one of the most stressful thing for everyone. Not just, um, uh, yeah, introvert of extrover, but again. Funda is a, is a, is a very important skill.
Again, every time you are trying to sell an idea, every time you're selling a project, every time you are selling anything, even if you are just telling a story, it's fundamental that you know the basic skills of, of public speaking. And again, toastmasters is, is a great thing because it's a is free, is everywhere you can apply to go in any club.
For free, uh, attend as much as you like. And the old good thing about those masters, for example, is all based on feedback. I mean, you can, you can either, if you do it by yourself, you can try to, to repeat a presentation in front of a screen. You can record [00:40:00] yourself and then you can listen back. You can see how you move the way you express your tone.
And so on the way, if you come across like assertive enough, compelling enough, confident enough, oh, you can go in things like. Toastmasters where everything is based on feedback. So you go there, you speak, you deliver a one minute speech, a seven minute speech, whatever, and then you get feedback from all the audience, which, if it's a small, uh, group, maybe if it's a small club, can be like 10, 15 people.
But if it's a big club, can be 50, 60, 80 people in the club. And then everyone. Down anonymously. Uh, they are feedback about the way you were speaking. You were speaking too fast, you were speaking monotone, you were not moving enough, you are not
moving enough. You are, you're looking in, you're not doing like, uh, eye contact, you're looking in a corner, this type of things.
And then you learn and then you go, uh, up, up again. And then you try impromptu speeches. Prepare speeches again is, is a. Big, big gym to, to try to understand how you come across with [00:41:00] others and how you can improve your, your, the technicality of your public. Speaking again, is Alf technical and, and soft skill, but it probably is more, is more soft, soft skills.
Stephen Drew: Yeah.
Wow. And I don't you have many people talk about Toastmasters so that, um, it's good that you mentioned, yeah,
Carlo Magni: please, if, if you are trying to up your game in terms of presentation skills, in terms of speaking in front of a
planning committee or in front of your, uh, uh, bosses or your clients or consultants. Well, public speaking, um, skills and Toast Master particularly.
I mean, is a, is a good choice.
I mean, toast Masters is, I dunno how many clubs we have in London, for example. They are in any big city, any big city in the uk, in the world. I think there are 40,000 clubs in the world. And again, you can just step in. It's very welcoming. You step in, you, you, you listen. If you don't want to speak straight away, then you listen.
You listen when you feel confident. Okay, let, let's, let's have a go. Let's try.
Stephen Drew: let's have a go. So do you think that boated, [00:42:00] well what was it like then on your first, uh, you talked about the dream, so you did it, you were in the RABA headquarters in the futures leaders. That's kind of like the mecca of Architecture.
Carlo Magni: you know what I, uh, again. We don't stop, we don't spend time enough to stop and like, oh, I did this. It is kind one of my dreams. Like they giving a
a, a talk in, in front of, I think it was a hundred hundred architects or the air IBA, which was, well, hey, as you said, it's a mecca from, from an Architect, but it's kind of, you kind of, oh, I, I did like a TED Talk or something like that.
This is one of my next, next thing I, I need to work on it. Um, I mean the, the, the main thing is as an introvert. You need to prepare. I mean, even if you're an extroverted person, but I don't want to, to, to stick too much on this, uh, separation between extrovert and introvert. Let, let's, let's allow me to generalize.
Stephen Drew: Generalize it.
Carlo Magni: Let, uh,
Stephen Drew: for everyone. Yeah.
Carlo Magni: Um, for, for, for preparing. Uh, when you [00:43:00] deliver a speech, well, you need to prepare it. I mean, it's, it's is, there are very few people in the world that can just, IM impromptu, um, improvise a, a very good speech. Based on, on a, on a very specific topic. I, I mean, I'm, uh, unless you, you have done it many, many times, but if you want to touch on many, many aspects, technical aspects, scientific aspects, try to, uh, engage the, the public well, you need to prepare and you need to test it with, with your friends, with your partners, with the, uh, whoever is, is willing to listen to you.
You can even record yourself. But yeah, it was about all prep preparation and make sure that the flow was. It makes sense. 'cause again, the worst thing ever is your, your, your, uh, uh, people have some kind of expectation from what you're going to say. But if you haven't prepared at all, well you just start rambling, rambling, and they say, is there any instruction in the, the, the, in what you are saying?
Because I don't have even, even a takeaway of what you [00:44:00] just said. So that's why you need to structure. Um, your, your speech in, in a, in a certain way to start from, I dunno, from drama to success or from, from, uh, your personal story to, to all the, um. All the uh, uh, difficult moment of your life, and then here we go.
You come into talking about your success and inspire everyone around you. I mean, there are a lots of technical ways to do it, and storytelling is all about that. I mean, the good thing is storytelling. The reason why storytelling is so powerful compared to someone that is just. Bombarded you with data, information, numbers.
Is the storytelling something that everyone can relate to? 'cause think about when you were a child, someone is telling a story, or, uh, children and kids, they love someone telling stories or some, some of they even ask you, can you tell me the story? Can you read this? Can you read this book? Or whatever.
Because, uh, when they are young, they don't have access to the ability to read. So therefore they want someone to tell the story. So it's, it's a pretty human need [00:45:00] too. To get told the story, and therefore, the other thing telling story is you can relate to that story because he's a, he's a human being in front of you that is telling something about themselves or even about someone else.
But usually it's when it's about human, uh, human individuals, it. Everyone can relate to. The more you are going to touch on things where, uh, the, the, the audience is very close to the way you, um, is very close to your experience. They start to think about, oh, this was me. This is, this is me now. And again, the best thing ever is to understanding that you're not talking about, you're not deliver.
Speech you're talking to every single person, and the more you are
able to touch and to unlock their memory or maybe touching on, oh, this is my attitude. This is what I believe also this is, or even something different. '
This is what I, I thought was completely different, but actually you, you are explaining very
clearly that is part of what we
can go [00:46:00] through in, in our day, uh, daily life.
So storytelling is another thing. The architects
should be, uh, uh, focused a lot because. I mean, it may makes a a massive difference.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Well, life's a pitch, isn't it? There's a, there's a good book, and that quote always sticks in my mind. Now I think it's great what you've done, and now I need to go to the future. Future leaders myself, but I've got the benefit of you being here. Now let's flip it around 'cause at the end I normally like to ask my guests if they've got a few questions for me.
Now we know each other. I also work with you at EPR indirectly 'cause we do a lot of the recruitment for it and we've had chats over the years. So maybe it would be cool
if you have one or two questions for me while we're here so
Carlo Magni: Yeah, definitely.
Stephen Drew: one way that you are involved too. Yeah.
Carlo Magni: Uh, well, um, we, we touched about, um. Uh, soft skills and our skills and, and I know you, uh, I mean with, with your job, you go through, I [00:47:00] dunno how many cvs and the portfolio you go through every day,
but it is something that
you, you, you, breed every single day. So is it something that you can spot or
you can. Or something that comes across
easily in someone's a person CV in terms of, oh, this is all focus on technical and all focus on software or someone that actually is put in the effort
to try to explain what is their soft skill, uh,
baggage. In terms of, I've done a bit of leadership, I've done
a bit of, uh, leading teams decision making, uh, communication, presentation, public speaking.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, no, really good question.
The Importance of Soft Skills
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Stephen Drew: I mean it, the short thing is the soft skills are everything because in the interview we talked about life's a pitch, but an interview is, is a speech, it is storytelling, and the story is you and the outcome on the story convinces the person whether or not. They should give you the job because the interview really is about can you solve the problem I have on the team?
[00:48:00] And so soft skills are everything. The thing is, at the start, the hard skills can sometimes
just be the filter, which gets you
in and out. So sometimes I get frustrated with I, I can have this amazing person and I go, oh, you just did a Revit course for like four weeks, just to get the basics a bit. When you were like, right, I need to do.
My English podcast is to brush up. I just wish people did that because then they will unlock all the soft skills. 'cause the harsh thing in life is sometimes if you don't have some of the tick boxes, you don't get in the meetings. Um, because that's the thing people do judge on, uh, first impressions and the CV is the document that does the speaking for you.
And so sometimes you can have this. The straightened situation where you've met someone and they're so convincing and engaging, but you can't get them in because certain things are not on the CV. Um, on the other [00:49:00] hand, there was someone recently that we introduced to EPR because I know the company for years, and when you have conversations which are really important.
Part of being a professional, always speaking to people, but in recruitment you, when you speak to someone on the phone, you really get a grasp of it. And I was like, I think that'll be really good for James's team. I just had a feeling. And then so then you just use, but there's trust in there and it's also knowing one person, knowing the other, and you go, listen.
I think you really like to meet this person. Uh, trust me, they're, I think they're a good fit. And if you've got that trust and rapport, you can do that. But even still, if there was a few things on that TV that want the tick boxes, I've had it where I've done that and it doesn't work. But when the soft skills are them, then the interview happens and then everyone's excited and animated, and then everyone wants to make it go.
So I, I think soft skills are so important, however. Those hard skills. There are some [00:50:00] things that just, you just have to have, and I know Revit, we talked about it so much, but you had that skill, you had that tick, and then it got you in to have these conversations where your soft skills then got the job.
Does that make sense? So a combination.
Carlo Magni: Absolutely. Then yeah, definitely. I mean, don't, don't, don't dump in, in the being all the, all the technical skills you have because again, most of the time they allow you to, uh, is your gateway to, to do something you want to do to, to a career. You can, you can build, 'cause it's, it's, it's normal. I mean, it's, it's pretty standard.
You start from technical and then you go into more management and leadership and strategic positions. But, uh, and the, the, the other thing is. Soft skills, never start to learn and, and, and develop the, the soft skills you have and learn new ones. But we, we live in a world where change is happening every single day, not just in our life, in our profession.
So therefore keeping updated with what's going on in the industry and, and then do [00:51:00] courses, training, qualification that keeps you your technical skills to the, the level that you can have the conversation. Because again, um. Being competent is one of the things that makes you a, a trustable leader. If you're not confident, I mean, the worst thing ever is having someone that is being promoted to a position where it doesn't know what what's going on, doesn't know what, what he's talking about.
It's the worst thing ever is the, is the fastest way to erode your trust. If you are talk, try to talk about something that you, you are not really competent. And then nowadays, uh, the competency, uh, in, in our industry is fundamental. I mean, I mean, it can, can put you in big troubles if you are not competent or if you don't take the right decision, if you don't have the right judgment.
Again, decision making and judgment are part of
the. Soft skill sphere, but they have to do with, with competence as well, because some, some of the technical skill they need to go with whatever you have learned in your career, whatever is your what, what is your judgment, and then is something that you develop [00:52:00] and develop all the time.
And, and again, sometimes it's now easy to, to get decision, but that's the beauty of, of decision making. If, if there is uncertainty. Then you enter the gate of decision making. If everything is obvious and certain, well, what's, what's the reason to take decision? It's already there.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah,
I think you're right. Now, I think we're at this point, maybe we got time for one more question and then. I'd like to tell everyone where they can find you. What other questions you have for me, Kala? The most burning question you've always wanted to ask me. Live and then scripted.
Carlo Magni: Um, question to you. Um.
Navigating Complex Projects with Navisworks
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Carlo Magni: How much of, uh, Navisworks comes into the, the severe review because the, the, the,
beauty of Navis works, I, I got about Revit. Navisworks
gives you a massive freedom to quickly navigate through the complexity of the project. So things I've, this is because probably my, my engineering background and, and, and [00:53:00] nature.
But I love complexity. I love complex projects where the, the level of complication in, in, in the way you need to understand that and simplify big problems is, uh, uh, is, is something that happens every day and Navis works. Uh, again, not, not from not being sponsored by Autodesk, but Navis
Stephen Drew: Oh, I'd love that though. If they wanna sponsor me and you now,
Carlo Magni: there we go.
Stephen Drew: we, we, we will let you know where a fan Carlo and me in a second, but carry on Nvis works.
Carlo Magni: But now, if you are working on projects where you are kind of a delivery stage, you are on site or you are a level where you have, uh, pretty much everything modeled is, is Wow. Is, is a. It's amazing because again, very quickly you can see everything is going on. It's kind of virtually being on site where you can turn it off.
Different contractors, uh, models, you have the, the services, the uh, the pH you have the, the mechanical electrical. You can turn on and off and you can see exactly what's coming in, where, where is coming, if there is a clash. I'm not talking about the, the [00:54:00] automatic clash detection things, which is a cool stuff that all the managers are being coordinated do, but from a.
Architect point of view. I mean, if you are able to navigate into the model and very quickly tell what's going on and, and then again tell the story of there we go. This is what's going on. This is what's happening. Let's have a look at the thing in 3D straight away. Revit can do the same thing, but it takes like.
20 times the time to go navigate into the complex model. I mean, uh, one of the recent one we were working on there are hundred, 100 or slightly more one than 100 models in the, from different contractor consultants and so on.
Then it is, is a beauty just to navigate into this complexity and being able to spot.
The, uh, the, the thing that doesn't work or that works and be able to ex to show it to client, to, to be able to show it to, to consultants and explain, guys, this is what's going on straightaway. Like, okay, we can go back in plans in sections, but be able to navigate in 3D very
quickly. Gives you the freedom to understand [00:55:00] things faster and to to, to understand the, the model faster, the project faster.
Stephen Drew: Yeah. Well, disappointingly the answer is I, I, I don't see it much and
I rarely does it become into the. Brief, unless it's a very BIM centric role, so like a BIM Coordinator, it will come up. But yeah, you've very interestingly, I've not had an Architectural role for an Architect where Navisworks is a plus.
Um, also, I don't tend to see it on many cvs other. A BIM champion, which is a very
informal way of saying maybe a Revit person on the team or a BIM Coordinator. However, if they do have it now, I know I should probably drop you a message with it because
Carlo Magni: Yes.
Stephen Drew: you are passionate, you, you are passionate about it.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Stephen Drew: But on that note of dropping you a message, um, I think you've. Enlightened myself. I feel like I've been in a CPD, which [00:56:00] is the best version 'cause I like doing the podcast, but it's also cool if I, if I get to learn something from it. Now, if anyone in the audience, uh, learns something from this, or they want to get in, contact you for leadership advice, leadership coaching, or they want to keep up to date with you about the talks that you do at the RIBA, all that good stuff, Carlo, where can they find you?
Carlo Magni: I think the interest is LinkedIn, so it is LinkedIn slash in slash uh, car magni, so it's pretty, pretty straightforward.
Stephen Drew: Yeah, and if you're on audio, I'll put Carlo's details. I'll put his LinkedIn into the description as well. Carlo. Now, we've recorded this during your lunch break and EPR, so I apologize to the whole board for delaying you. I won't keep you any further, but for me, this has
Carlo Magni: been a pleasure.
Stephen Drew: It's been super valuable to me and thank you for making the time to do it.
I really appreciate it. Stay on the
stage for one second because I'm gonna say [00:57:00] goodbye to you and the audience. So if you enjoyed this,
do get in contact with Carlo. I like people. They'll walk the walk as well as the talk. The talk. So Carlo. It's done. Lots of cool buildings and as well, well that's the person that you want to get leadership advice from rather than some of those coaches that talk about it, but don't actually do it.
So I appreciate you being here. Do follow Carlo and
more content coming up. I've got one or two schedule. I can't tell you what they are, but I was excited for them just as much as this. So keep in tune. Thank you everyone in the audience. I'm gonna end the the livestream now. Have a good day everyone.
Carlo Magni: Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye Chase.