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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
Church Is Messy, 06-10-2026 Ep147
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Svea: good morning, Rick. We have reached the season finale, so to speak, of The Church's Messy podcast.
Rick: I can hardly believe it. We're gonna be taking a break from podcasting, and I'll miss it a little bit, but this also signals the- A little
Svea: bit?
Rick: Yeah. I will. I- Just
Svea: a little bit?
Rick: Well, more than a little bit. Oh,
Svea: okay.
Rick: I really... You know what I enjoy the most?
Svea: What's that?
Rick: I just enjoy kicking around ideas. Uh-huh. And I just... I love... some dudes, they really love their garage, and they love tinkering around with woodworking or engines or whatever. I love the garage of ideas, and I just love thinking and talking about implications of these things.
So, like I, I love it. I love it. Yeah. And so I will miss this dedicated time to just get to jibber jabber about things that I- ... that I really enjoy. Yes, more than a little bit.
Svea: Okay, good.
Rick: So what? It marks the end of, this season, of the podcast. So we're gonna take a break for a little bit i- in the summer.
But it also marks the end of the longest message series that I've ever preached. And, uh, it kinda feels- It's been- For me, it's kind of a- ... five
Svea: months
Rick: I know. For me, it's been a fun milestone. And I didn't lose energy for it, but I am excited about what's coming next.
Svea: Yeah, absolutely.
I didn't feel like it dragged on at all. Every week while we were- Mm-hmm ... anchored- Yeah ... in the same book- Yeah ... um, each week. Yeah. Every week just felt like it kinda built on and further developed the, especially our key verses- Mm-hmm ... about how we're, we're standing firm- Yeah ... we're doing everything in love.
I think it's been, a good series.
Rick: All right. Awesome.
Svea: So we've ar- we've arrived at the end. Yeah. Now, you kinda teased over the last couple podcast episodes that you thought that what you had planned for this message might blow up in your face. But-
Rick: It potentially could.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: You know, like, if people walked out and they thought, Rick is grumpy about something, and this is his version of Festivus.
He is airing of grievances. I've got problems with you peop- " Like, if they walked out thinking, "I wonder if it's that," then it's a whole mess. Because that's not in my heart at all. That's not there at all. It's not animating at all. But if people walked out with some sense that maybe that's there, then I think it's a w- just a waste of time.
Svea: Sure. So when you looked at 1 Corinthians 16- Mm-hmm ... the, uh, the junk drawer of the book, as you called it -
Rick: Yeah. Well, it's just a, it's an eclectic mix of important things.
Svea: Yes. Yes, junk drawer in the most positive way of thinking of it.
Rick: Yeah. Could you imagine not having your junk drawer in your kitchen? Like, I'm going in the junk drawer all the time, because it's just a random collection of things that I need.
Svea: Believe it or not, I don't have a junk drawer in my kitchen. I've, I have a well-organized kitchen where things have a designated place. I do have a junk drawer in a different-
Rick: Okay ...
Svea: section of my home.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: But
Rick: Okay.
Svea: Okay ... you're, the look you're giving me right now.
Rick: We bow at the altar of your greatness.
Your organizational skills.
Svea: You know, the more out of control my life feels, the more organized my
Rick: house
Svea: gets.
Rick: Oh, that, okay, that is so true. That is so true. Right now, okay, so I've got both my kids living at home right now. Uh-huh. Um, it the shoes at the front door is getting out of hand.
Svea: Oh, yeah.
Rick: It's getting out, and it's messing with me. No. But they're so helpful and awesome in other ways. Like, I don't wanna ... I'm, like, trying to keep my stress and, you know- ... fastidiousness at bay.
Svea: I get it. '
Rick: Cause I'm the only one who feels it in the house, and sometimes I'm like, what k- what kinda person am I if I'm, like, imposing this preference that I have on everyone?"
Svea: Yeah. No, I get it. I get it. All right, well, so back to the junk drawer- Yeah ... of 1 Corinthians. As you read through chapter 16- Mm-hmm ... and there's so many kind of disparate ideas- Mm-hmm ... and last-minute thoughts that Paul's jottin' down before his quill pen runs out of ink.
Rick: Sure.
Svea: There were a number of different ways you could go, and the section on, basically, "Don't pick on Timothy- Yeah
when I send him to you."
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And w- the thoughts that Paul did include there- Mm-hmm ... on how to treat a leader well- Mm-hmm ... and how not to abuse a leader. Mm-hmm. What made you decide, "Yep, out of all the options in this chapter, this is what I want to focus on"?
Rick: I think people who know me well or even just kind of medium, they won't be surprised by this.
I'm drawn to talk about the things that nobody else wants to talk about.
And especially the things that everybody knows, like we all know it's there, but why is no one talking about it? Mm-hmm. And of course, there is a problem with leaders who are operating from some sort of brokenness that causes them to be abusive, to exploit, take advantage, or to engage in regrettable behavior in how they lead others.
That is a real thing. There are tons of resources and material out there, podcasts, websites, social media feeds, books, tons of stuff out there. I, in my life, in- Man, 30 years of engaging ministry, over 25 years , of being in pastoral ministry, being in the church all my life, I've never heard anybody talk about this in a public way.
I've never heard anybody preach on this passage, so I read it. I was just like, "Well, man, I wanna talk about it."
Let's dare to talk about what's in the text.
One of the things that I want for us as a pastoral team, anyone who is teaching the text in any arena in Autumn Ridge, is to not flinch, is to never back off of watching the text or topics that might be hard.
Because I think people benefit when we dare to go there, if we go there in a way that honors Jesus and truly loves people.
Svea: Yeah. No, I love that.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: I love that. That's a great answer, and gives me even a little bit more insight into your motivation for that. Mm-hmm. I, I did feel that tension for you, that it can be really awkward- Mm-hmm
to tell a group of people what not to do when you're the person who stands to benefit from it.
Rick: Yeah. Um- Do I benefit from them not being harsh to me? Yes. Do I have some sort of benefit if people say, "Hey, we trust you enough to follow your lead"? Absolutely.
Svea: Mm-hmm
Rick: But that should be just as, if not more beneficial to them.
Svea: Sure.
Rick: That's the relationship that it should be. Yeah.
Svea: In your position you have the insights- Mm-hmm ... from having seen it from all different sides. Oh, yeah. You've been on the side of- Mm-hmm ... of looking at other leaders. Mm-hmm. You've also been the leader- Mm-hmm ... in the room.
Mm-hmm. You've been in positive leadership situations, you've been in difficult leadership situations. Yep. So you have the, uh- Mm-hmm ... maybe the perspectives to be able to help other people- I hope so ... see it with a little bit more clarity. I hope so.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: So you identified four different categories-
Rick: Vulnerabilities.
Yeah.
Svea: Of how people might be either drawn or have expectations of certain kinds of leaders- Mm-hmm ... or how-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: their own vulnerabilities to maybe a little bit more of a dysfunctional way of relating to their leaders could impact things.
Rick: Yeah. And the common thread was mindsets. It, this is part of this, the genius of the Bible is if it truly is inspired by God, which I believe, and it's coming from the mind of God, then we should see just real transcendent, timeless genius in a way that cannot be explained by the context of the day.
And one of the things is, how people truly experience transformation and what happens in the brain. We are transformed by first changing how we think, and then our emotional lives and our behavior and attitudes, all of that flows out of that. I love that. It's just genius in, in God's word.
Romans chapter 12 is a, is a great starting point if you wanna look at that. So what I wanted to talk about was mindsets and how mindsets lead to behavior. And so I don't wanna just say, "Hey, don't do this behavior." Let's seriously consider mindsets that we might have And if we recognize the error of the mindset, change what we believe, then that change how we think, and that change how we feel, and that changes what we do.
So let's engage, mindsets.
Svea: Okay, so let's just do a quick recap- Mm-hmm ... of these four different mindsets. Give us a one, uh, sentence summary of each. So with strongman Christianity.
Rick: That's the church version of the common human phenomenon of desiring leaders who are strong.
These are leaders who typically puff up and posture, and they will dominate a room and a crowd through the forcefulness of their personality or whatever skill that they have.
Svea: Okay. For scoreboard Christianity.
Rick: Yeah, this is the church version of bringing in the world's zero-sum game mindset. If you wanna read more about zero-sum game, look into Simon Sinek and, and Infinite Game.
I think he's done a great jo- he didn't invent this, but he does a great job of explaining it and knowing the dangers of it. But essentially, zero-sum game mindset or scoreboard Christianity is treating all the important things in life like it's a sporting event. For someone to go up, someone else has to go down.
For someone to win, that means someone else has to lose. It's just not possible for us to both win- Mm-hmm ... in that mindset.
Svea: Okay, pep rally Christianity.
Rick: Pep rally Christianity is the church version of everybody gathering together, and they're all rooting for their team, but the problem is while on the surface it looks like we're all on Team Jesus, we've slipped on jerseys of old teams, and our primary allegiance is actually to something else.
Maybe it's a political person or group. Maybe it's a social cause. I said maybe you're wearing the, jersey for nostalgia of the past. "I just wish things were like they were back then, and I'm just trying to force that," and so instead of giving primary allegiance to Jesus and cheering for his team and being about his purposes, we're actually about something else.
S- sometimes people call it tribalism.
Svea: And fourth, consumerism.
Rick: Yeah. Consumerism Christianity is placing ourself at the center and defining joy and delight as about getting what we want and what we expect. It is incredibly self-focused approach.
Svea: So is there... well done, by the way.
Rick: Thank you.
Svea: I think that was more than one sentence, but I'll give it to you. Um, is there one of those four that you see as being more toxic or more of a threat in American church culture today?
Rick: That's a great question. I think, uh, strongman Christianity for sure, and I think consumerism Christianity for sure
Svea: Mm-hmm
Rick: And as a result of those two things, you definitely are gonna see a lot of pep rally Christianity
Svea: It's almost like the- Yeah ... the first and the fourth breed- That's right ... the third? Okay
Rick: And it's, I wanna be clear about what I believe. Maybe I'm dumb, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm out on a skinny branch and you think, "Rick, I just can't be with you on this." I'm just gonna call it like I see it. It's part of my job.
I gotta call it like I see it. That the primary vulnerability towards strongman Christianity is the fact that we are afraid, and we don't like to admit that we're afraid. We love to feel strong, and when there is a leader who roughs up the people who have roughed up us, if w- if there's a leader who's, bold and it appears courageous, maybe he's just combative, but it appears courageous, and it's a leader who doesn't take anything from anybody and he appears confident and he seems strong and he seems to advance and be successful and all that, I wanna be att- I wanna be on his team, I wanna be attached to him 'cause it makes me feel better about me
And deep down it's insecurity and it's a desire for certainty,
And if people think, "Rick, you're talking about politics," I suppose we could be. You see that in world history and you see it around the world today, but I'm talking about in the church. There are plenty of popular pastors and podcasters and social media people out there who are doing this, they're making their money, so to speak, on pretending to be able to provide certainty- Mm
which causes people to feel better. The only things that are certain are all the promises that are yes in Christ. As a follower of Jesus, the only things that are certain are all the promises that are yes in Christ, right? We can count on who God is and that He's never gonna change. We can count on everything that He's promised.
Everything else, we don't have certainty. What we need is clarity, and grasping at certainty is a counterfeit for actually having confidence in our Savior-
Svea: Mm ...
Rick: and what we need is just clarity for life and recognizing that there are no guarantees. There are so many things that are not certain, and that's okay.
Don't be afraid because you have a savior who has overcome the world.
Svea: Yeah
Rick: So you're fine So don't give in to those blowhards.
Svea: That's really powerful. I just was hearing a, another pastor preach on how as we grow in our faith-
...
Svea: We should expect to feel a decrease in anxiety. Absolutely. And his point was not that faith automatically eliminates all anxiety.
Mm-hmm. We're still, many of us- Mm-hmm ... will still wrestle through anxieties. Mm-hmm. But the more our faith increases, the less we're concerned about looking to Jesus to prevent any kind of bad circumstance from happening- Mm-hmm ... the more we're confident that no matter what circumstance happens- Mm-hmm ... we have Jesus walking alongside us through it.
Rick: I appreciate that. So yeah, that is golden. Let me see if I can phrase it this way, see if it's helpful for people. Strongman leaders promise confidence for your circumstances. We follow Jesus. We trust Jesus with our circumstances, not for our circumstances.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: The more you lean into that, the more you'll see profound difference.
Svea: It also makes sense, as what you're talking about, it makes sense that the more anxiety- ... the more uncertainty we have in our culture- Mm-hmm ... in our world- Mm-hmm ..., and it makes sense that- Mm-hmm ... we'd be in a place, of feeling that at a meta level- Yeah ... with what we've endured through COVID- Yeah
what we've endured through a number of- Yeah ... geopolitical wars, all of these things have been breeding this sense of- Mm-hmm ... of lack of control- Mm-hmm ... that there will be an emergence of strongman leaders.
Rick: That's a great, that's a great word that you just used, the lack of control.
Great, but it's more than one word. Phrase. It's, it's a great phrase, great term. I wanna make sure that we're looping in everybody. And so I imagine that there are plenty of dudes who would say that, "No, I don't feel insecure, I don't feel afraid, I don't feel anxious." Okay. You feel concerned about something.
You recognize something as a problem or as a danger and you wanna fix it. How are you gonna go about it?
And those are ways of thinking and talking that are safe ways to describe what's actually going on, is some fear, some insecurity down below. I'm not saying all the time, but sometimes that's, that's going on, and if we opt towards someone who is nothing like Jesus, even a pastor who just breaks with the way of Jesus, and we get confidence in that, ugh, you know what that tells us?
That we actually are afraid. Mm-hmm. That we don't trust Jesus to be our savior. We need something else to be our savior.
Svea: Yeah, that's that's a good thing to consider in ourselves.
Speaking of considering things in ourselves, I think it's easy for us to spot consumerism in other people, and harder for us to recognize-
Rick: Yeah, I-
Svea: in ourselves ...
Rick: I will talk about how I see it in you. Number one. Yeah.
Svea: That's what we could do. We could just talk about how we see it in each other right now.
Rick: Do you know what? You know what'd be more fun? Let's ju- let's start with Caleb- ... and then we'll just pick other pastors and, on, people on staff- Oh, dear
some of our elders, and let's just t- talk about how we see it in them. That would be...
Svea: Well, it'd be easier on us, wouldn't it? It might make the staff meeting kind of awkward next time.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Svea: Yeah. That quote that you put up from Erwin Gray-
Rick: Oh, my goodness,
Svea: man ... about what consumerism looks in the church, that was gold.
Rick: Wasn't it?
Svea: Yeah. Come on. He's on the
Rick: money.
Svea: That was an amazing quote.
Rick: How did you first discover Erwin Gray?
Svea: Derwin Gray has a gal on his staff who's his director of discipleship who's been in my cohort- ... in my doctorate program. Mm-hmm. She's just a wonderful gal, an accomplished author and conference speaker.
And so I've gotten to, see the inside, uh, baseball happening at that church, and it seems like he's just a great leader.
Rick: I knew your answer would be more substantial than mine. More admirable than mine. I first discovered Derwin Gray years ago. He was the evangelism linebacker. There was a series of parody videos, he played major college football.
He was drafted by the Colts. I think he spent a little time, with the Panthers, but he, he played in the NFL. And so there's a series of parody videos of where he would,, tackle people in different office situations. It was just... I thought it was hilarious. That's how I discovered him. I didn't even know he was in the ministry at that time.
But I, I think he's a brilliant pastor. I think he's got a lot of helpful things to say about how to be a church of all cultures, and I think he's got his thumb on the pulse of things that are actually happening right now in the world, and he has a way to speak to it in a way that... And I admire it, and I'd like to be a little bit more like it.
Svea: Yeah. That's cool. It's fun to, to be able to pick out the things that we do see in other leaders- Mm-hmm ... that they're doing effectively, to figure out how to incorporate that. But let's talk for a little bit about consumerism Christianity. Okay. Because I think this is one that's really hard to tease out.
Mm. Like, with some of the others, like the scoreboard Christianity, it's pretty easy to see that's not gonna be a healthy mindset. If, if someone has to win, someone else has to lose. Mm-hmm. That's just not the way of Jesus, and we can kind of- Yeah ... isolate that pretty, pretty clearly. Mm-hmm. But in consumerism, while we may recognize this is going to be toxic if I approach church and faith and the way that I'm r- living out my ambassadorship for Jesus- Mm-hmm
in this kind of what's in it for me, is this doing for me what I want it to do, we can see that that's toxic, and yet I think it can be really difficult for us to isolate where are the places I'm struggling for, , how is church feeding my spiritual needs? How is my faith community supporting my spiritual growth?
Mm-hmm. There's a spectrum-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: of we still are looking to- Mm ... our community to feed us, to build us, to edify us to, - Yeah ... to help us. But to slip over to the extreme of- What's in this for me-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: is where it starts to get toxic. Yeah. So I think it's harder for us to
Rick: It is hard
Svea: situate ourselves on that spectrum from health to toxicity.
Rick: So let's lean into why it's so hard. One, it's in our hearts. It's just in us, and our hearts are brilliant lawyers and philosophers and salesmen. Our hearts will deceive us- Mm-hmm ... because we're just, we're broken. I love how Tim Mackey describes it.
It is pervasive depravity. It is the tentacles of moral brokenness and sin touch everything about us. And so there's not one single nook or cranny of my life that is not touched by the reality of sin. Man, it just makes the grace and love of Jesus shine so much brighter.
All right. So there's that. It's in us. Number two, I'm gonna skip a level. It's in the culture all around us. Everything about our culture is wired, structured, organized around consumerism. How do we evaluate our government primarily? The economy.
How much can you afford to spend?
I'm being a bit reductionistic, but I'm not terribly , off the mark. Everything about our culture is wired and structured and organized around consumerism. So let me turn the spotlight on me as a leader, and on you as a leader, on all of us , who lead here at Autumn Ridge.
That makes its way into the systems that we put together in our church. And so we can actually feed in people or cultivate in people what we don't actually want Mm. And so I've been thinking about this, and I don't know that there's, , any glaring gaps or issues in what we do here at Autumn Ridge.
But one of the things that I have felt some turbulence over is sometimes how we talk, how I talk. Just as simple as this, "Hey thanks for coming today," and- Mm-hmm ... or, "Thanks for attending. So glad that you were with us." I think what that can unintentionally reinforce is this was an event, I'm glad you came to this event and a worship gathering is an event, but it can subtly way down deep, maybe just a little bit, tend towards, man, I hope it was beneficial for you and that you're glad you came because you got some benefit out of it.
And there should be some benefit in all of that. And so I've started to change the way that I say, "I'm so grateful for being able to gather and worship with you today."
It's just a little tweak. I think it's in the culture, I think it's in the systems, and I think it's in our hearts.
And so this is why it's challenging. And so the rest of our lives, we're trying to break up with it, be on guard against it, stand firm in the faith, and have the courage to recognize it, have the strength to take our next step, and in the way that we respond to each other in all of this stuff, we just wanna be loving.
Svea: Yeah. Yeah. Boy, I can really see that really subtle- Mm-hmm ... dimensional shift-
...
Svea: from reinforcing even unintentionally- Mm-hmm .. The, did you get out of this what you were hoping to get? Did you receive the- Yeah ... benefit that we intended to give- Mm-hmm ... to a, to putting-
...
Svea: The right thing at the center of that- Yeah
to keep, our worship of God at the focus of our- Mm-hmm ... weekend services, that kind of little shift while very subtle- Mm-hmm ... um, has some powerful reach.
Rick: And I'm not saying that it's wrong for people to get benefit. - Everybody should benefit, right? Everyone should receive something, and we should be the kind of church where everyone can contribute something.
All I'm saying is it's slippery.
It's just slippery, and it's slippery because of sin in me. That's why.
Svea: As you're saying that, I'm thinking there's a parallel with marriage, where-
...
Svea: We, like in a really healthy marriage-
Rick: Mm-hmm ...
Svea: we benefit greatly-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: from having a thriving marriage.
Rick: Okay, you're speaking my language 'cause my wife has been out of town for a week.
Svea: I
Rick: know. And I'm f- and I'm a mu- It's so hard, isn't it? I'm not sleeping. I'm a bit of a mess. If it wasn't for my kids being awesome kind of adults propping me up, I don't know where I would be. I might be in a gutter somewhere-
this morning.
Svea: Wow, that's pathetic.
Rick: I am pathetic But it speaks- I need.
Svea: Oh, Heather, come home and rescue this poor man.
Oh, dear. So in a great marriage, we- Yeah ... benefit in massive ways- Yeah ... from that.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: But if we ever begin to approach marriage- ... exclusively from the, "I'm only in this as far as it benefits me"-
...
Svea: Then we've just shifted into a completely different toxic realm.
Rick: So w- whether you're talking about marriage, whether you're talking about your best friend, whether you're talking about the kind of spiritual friendships that I hope you are able to develop in smaller communities here at Autumn Ridge, somewhere there's a line between interdependence and codependency, and I don't know where that line is.
I know that I'm all over, I'm back and forth, I'm, I'm sure. Interdependence is great. Kinda codependent and putting on s- somebody something that you shouldn't is not so great. So it's slippery.
That's it. Mm-hmm. That's all we're saying.
Svea: As we try to evaluate in ourselves is it my identity in Christ?
Am I living for Jesus? Or- That's right ... am I tempted to slip into any of these mindsets, or- Yeah ... to, put these on our leaders.
Rick: So let's run through that real quick. Mm-hmm. So the antidotes for all of this. Number one, you just gotta know Him. You gotta n- not know about Jesus, you gotta know Him. Mm-hmm. And so just kinda go back to how we talk about what discipleship is, what it means to be a fully devoted follower of Jesus.
We're talking about, number one, be with Jesus. Mm-hmm. And then we wanna become like Him and do as He did, and it's chronological order, logical order, but it- it's got to begin with being with Jesus and knowing Him.
Svea: Yeah. There is a huge difference between knowing about-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: and truly knowing
Rick: Him.
Yes, yes. And there's a huge difference in knowing the Bible-
...
Rick: And knowing Jesus. Both are great, but one's better. Uh-huh. Okay? We ne- the Bible is there to help us know Him. So we gotta know that our significance comes from Him, and we don't have to anxiously scramble to get it from anyone or any other thing.
So that should contribute to our ability to rest and be confident. Number three, to know that our identity is in Him, that we are, we're brand new. It's not just a label on the outside, it is transformation that starts on the inside, and we know His compelling love. , We know those things. It is going to unlock the chains of broken ways of thinking.
Svea: , That's good.
Rick: Okay. All right, so where were you going?
Svea: I think it's one of these things, like the, dysfunctional sides, it's harder to see it in ourselves than it is to see it in other people.
Rick: Sure.
Svea: I agree
but as we are seeking- Mm-hmm ... to really rest firm with our identity in Christ, can you give some handholds to I was gonna say, to that person who might be thinking this, and I'll just, to me. Okay. There's times when I want that so badly, but then- Mm-hmm ... I recognize other identities are sneaking in.
And sometimes not even bad ones, . my identity as a mom or as a wife or as a friend. These things feel like they take a- Mm-hmm ... larger presence in my life, and it's easy to slip into- Got it ... other ways of thinking.
What are some handholds for coming back to our groundedness and our foundation in Christ?
Rick: I'll give you the best wisdom that I have, and I think it'll be simultaneously re- Frustrating and comforting. I think it'll feel easy and hard at the same time. Are you ready?
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: Number one, when you recognize that, just say it out loud.
Just acknowledge it. One, you can never be more honest with someone else than you are with yourself. Mm-hmm.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And so just say to yourself, "I'm really kinda defining myself by my performance right now."
Svea: Mm-hmm. "
Rick: Right now, I am feeling better about myself if this person or this group approves of me."
And I have to say it out loud. I have to acknowledge it to myself so then I can be honest in prayer- ... and say, "Jesus, this is the reality, and I, I think I'm being honest with you about it right now, but I know that there is, I know that there's a level where I can't even be honest with myself, which means I'm not being totally honest with you.
The door is open, you gotta blade check, I'm just asking you to mess with me on this."
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: I just wanna acknowledge it, right? And remind yourself of the truth, remember the truth and we know the truth in God's Word- And here's the other part, is you gotta be able to talk honestly with other people who are journeying with you, people who love you and have your back and who love Jesus.
They want the best for you, right? You've got that, you got high trust. You can trust each other. You can count on each other. Yeah. You can encourage each other. You can hold each other accountable. There's no lone ranger nonsense Christianity. I would say just start there.
How does that sound?
Svea: Yeah, that sounds good.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: That sounds good. And as I'm processing how I've seen that play out in my own life over the last couple of weeks, the good experiences reinforce what you're saying.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: The, uh, the honesty with self is really helpful. Saying something out loud- Mm-hmm
is really important for- Mm-hmm ... just acknowledging where you're at. Power's in the secrecy ... and being able to say it to other people.
Rick: The power of ugly things is in the secrecy.
Svea: I wanna shift us to one final topic- Mm-hmm ... in this, episode, and then we can do a wrap-up for the season here.
, You ended the message talking about submission- Mm ... and submission to leaders, and that as we submit to that, that's kind of an invitation-
Rick: To lead, yeah ...
Svea: to lead.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Now, while I think most of us can pretty quickly see that works great when we have a good and healthy leader-
But, I'm sure no one's thinking of Autumn Ridge 'cause we're all good and healthy leaders here. Or at least, I mean, not- without jokes aside-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: we are all striving to be good and healthy
Rick: leaders. No doubt that there will be things from time to time that cause people to reevaluate or second-guess trust.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: E- especially when things happen that you feel like you don't have sufficient clarity in.
Svea: Sure.
Rick: Totally understandable.
Svea: Sure. . And we do want people to- Mm-hmm ... to talk to us, and if they're feeling any of that- Yeah ... , conversations are always welcome and-
Rick: Oh, sure ...
Svea: and wanted.
And, you know, and I know all of you guys quite well, and I- Mm-hmm ... can say with full confidence in my heart- Mm-hmm ... I believe every one of the pastors here is wanting to seek to be a Jesus honoring leader- I believe that, too ... that does love and want to serve the people-
Rick: I believe that about our- ... of this church well
I believe that , about our pastors and staff. I believe it about our elders. Yeah. And so many people who are leading , ministry teams or serving on ministry teams. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think that, I think it's pervasive. Love it.
Svea: But when I think about the whole large aspect of- Mm-hmm
submission to leaders, the Bible- Mm-hmm ... also calls us to submit to unhealthy leaders, too.
And so as we're thinking about abuse of leaders, there are times when people are sitting under abusive leaders.
Rick: Absolutely. Absolutely
Svea: And, , maybe someone listening is thinking about how this applies to them in a work context- Mm-hmm
or, you know, or some other realm. , Can you just give any encouragement to what it looks like if someone is- Yeah ... sitting under one of these kind of strongman leaders or- Yeah ... or, uh- Yeah ... someone who's wearing a, a jersey for a totally different team?
Rick: So let's start big and come down more immediate granular level.
First of all, I just wanna remind us that this is the context of relationships within the church. So I wasn't necessarily talking about the workplace, wasn't talking about politics, wasn't talking about anything like that. In the church, we gotta remember that submission is not for one or a few.
It's not for a particular group. It's not gender-based. It's not status-based. It is universal. "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." That's Ephesians chapter 5. So we're all supposed to be doing that. So we should all do that. And sometimes it's gonna be following the lead. Sometimes it's going to be serving the need.
One way that we can kinda quickly think about that might begin to unpack some of the nuances is submission could be placing ourselves under someone's need or placing us- placing ourselves under someone's lead, right? And so submission can be both of those things or one of those things.
So let's kinda let's just start there. But let's try and take some of the wisdom and the truth that's here and apply it to other areas of life. We have to submit to government leaders, and let's remember that this was written by apostles who were experiencing profound, severe, painful persecution from government leaders.
And all of them except for John were murdered. By government leaders. Mm-hmm. All right? And they were writing to people who were under oppression by government leaders for their faith. Many were imprisoned. Many had their property confiscated. Many were beaten, and too high of a percentage of them were killed for their faith.
So we, we gotta understand this. This is not written by people on the top to the upper class. This is w- written by people on the bottom to others on the bottom. It's important to remember that. So there will be times, there will be times that you have to submit to people who you don't trust, and just my shorthand way of, of knowing how to approach this, especially in things like government and politics, is obey government until or unless obeying government means disobeying Jesus.
That's what we gotta do. Mm-hmm. Submit to government, submit to those leaders up and until it violates submission to Jesus. All right? And fortunately, we live in an era, and we live in a government in which we get to exercise our point of view, and we get to exercise accountability. The system always works better when everybody does that, but even if there are people in the system , or aspects of the system that are not embracing that, we can contribute that as much as we are empowered to do so.
Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So let's just start there. Now let's start... Let's move down into the workplace. The higher you go in the org chart, the easier it is to live out what I'm about to say. I learned years ago to not have to depend on someone who I don't trust.
If it is within my ability, if it's within my power, if it's possible to not have to rely on someone who I don't trust, do not rely on them.
Typically, organizational charts are written top-down. I'm gonna share our org chart with the staff today, and I like it bottom-up, right? Okay Because in the way of Jesus, we descend into leadership, not ascend into leadership. I'm just gonna use the, the common vernacular. The lower you are in the org chart, the more likely it is that you have to depend on people who you don't trust.
Mm. You have to rely on them, you have to submit to them, , you have to follow their lead. That's life in a broken world. Totally is. It's just life in a broken world. At some point you're gonna have to decide if the exchange is worth it, and if it's not worth it, then you need to pursue an opportunity that's a bit more healthy.
That's it. And I bet that there are plenty of leaders who would say, "Rick, I'm towards the top of the org chart and I'm having to depend on people below me that I don't trust." As a leader, y- individually, you have greater organizational power than they do. So I would say lean into that and to lead in that.
Maybe those people need to be developed. Maybe you're hiding from accountability conversations. But the people above typically are empowered to have the accountability conversations in a way that's far safer than the people below trying to move up.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: That's just a reality.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Uh, you're never gonna find anything perfect. But you j- you have to navigate that with wisdom, and there's no shortcut. There's no shortcut to that. Am I anywhere close to what you were hoping I would talk about?
Svea: You are close enough for where we are at the time of the hour that we are at.
We're gonna need to wrap this up. Mm-hmm. We do have some great resources for leaders. Mm-hmm. So if anyone is hearing that and like, "Yeah, I just would love to develop some of these skills"- Yeah ... we've got some great things happening here over the summer that people could check into- Yeah, yeah ... and be fed along those ways.
We're reaching this point where we're gonna take a couple breaks from the podcast. Mm-hmm ... like, a break for a couple of months- Mm-hmm ... um, for the rest of June, and, uh, but we'll be back in August. Do you wanna tease the series that we're gonna bring back the podcast for in August?
Rick: I told people that we were gonna do a series on heaven, and the series will include stuff on heaven, but there are a lot of people who are asking about kind of end times stuff.
Uh, so we're gonna do a series called The End, question mark, and we're gonna explore, kinda try to understand where this is all headed from a biblical perspective, are we in the end times now, and what can we expect about heaven?
Svea: I am so excited for that.
Rick: All right.
Svea: That's gonna be a really exciting series.
So that's coming up in August, and we're gonna bring back the podcast for that, but, uh, in the meantime, we're gonna practice some healthy rhythms of rest and, uh, and we look forward to being back later in the summer.