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Get Me to the Gray, presented by COJA Services Inc., is a podcast about the conversations we’re told we shouldn’t have. Hosted by journalist and author Paula Lehman-Ewing, the show brings people with fundamentally different ways of seeing the world into honest dialogue—where we name what divides us and keep talking anyway.
COJA Services Inc. works with mission-driven organizations and brands that are clear on their values but struggle to translate that clarity into public-facing language. We help teams align internal narratives, reduce confusion before it becomes mistrust, and translate complexity into public understanding without relying on scripts, rhetoric, or generic AI language that strips voice and judgment.
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GMG_Ep18-Matt_Ward-MAIN
Paula Lehman-Ewing: [00:00:00] My guest today is Matt Ward, the founder of New Autonism, a modern religion built on a provocative premise that re- reason and religion are not opposing forces, but can evolve together. Before founding New Autonism, Matt spent decades in the professional audio industry, serving in executive leadership roles with companies including Studer Revox, Universal Audio, and working with artists and composers across music, film, and television.
He lays out the tenets of this new religious philosophy in his book, New Autonism: A Reason-Evolved Religion, where he makes the argument that religion can and should evolve alongside humanity's understanding of reality. Welcome to the show, Matt.
Matt Ward: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Before we started recording, we were joking that it gets, uh, that the name gets confused with, with atheism. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think a lot of people struggle with the dogma [00:01:00] behind religion and the conflicts that it creates, I'm wondering why you went with a religion versus, you know, a, a philosophy or- Mm-hmm
a, a, a book about ethics. Why did you... Why specifically a religion? What does that accomplish that secular philosophy doesn't?
Matt Ward: Well, I think humans clearly, uh, seem to need meaning. They... really belonging, identity. They love stories and ritual. They like moral frameworks. Um, and the traditional religions, uh, have historically provided all those things as well as, one could argue, philosophies.
The, the problem is they're re- they're resistant to evolving to new knowledge that we, uh, uh, that we acquire. Although they do that. They, they... You know, religion, uh, does evolve, and our ideas about things like the divine evolve, um, just albeit very, [00:02:00] very slowly and, and reluctantly at, at times. So I think the, the, the, the question I'm trying to do, one of the things that I think really attracted me about your show, is that I'm really trying to get to this kind of gray area between this, you know, certainty and nihilism, between revelation and reductionism, between religion and secularism, and between faith and dismissal.
It's, you know, the, there, there's a lot of real estate between this story is literally true and this story has no value, and a lot of people are kind of ex- are, are, are... Th- there's an evolution that's happening where a lot of people are kind of coming into that area. So this is an attempt to give people like that a place to land.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Hmm. And, and I really like that. I, I, um, you know, listeners of the show will know that I don't like to throw away the baby with the bathwater, as they say. But, um, so tell me a little bit about the semantics then, because you do have these familiar [00:03:00] terms that you've mentioned, religion, faith. In this sense, how are those defined without the extremes attached to them?
Matt Ward: Well, I think the, um, o- one of the things that we here in the West, I think what is... Just to, just to... I'll start with just theism and atheism, and I think that, um, for most people in the West, that conversation is essentially, do you believe in some sort of flavor of the Abrahamic God or not? And, and that's really, um...
That's a, that's a, a narrow kind of Western-centric idea of what God is. There are lots of other ideas from, from, uh, other cultures that are, that are really quite different from that. Um, so that... And theism is an umbrella term that things like polytheism, monotheism, uh, all of these different... Pantheism, all of these different, um, ideas of what, uh, of what the divine is [00:04:00] like are in.
So that's one of the things that, that's semantically really important,
A, a lot of conversations that start with, "Do you believe God exists?" end up with two people just completely talking past each other, 'cause they're talking about two completely different things.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Mm-hmm. But I do think that modern religions account for that space. Like, you know, you mentioned evangelical Christians, and there are different secular, Christian religions.
Jews have different levels, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform. Like, there is within religion already exists this sort of like, explore your connection to God, and then we'll come together and do this communal thing. So I'm wondering where reason comes in as the separating factor with New Atheism, 'cause is it, is it more that, um, that it was...
It's this sort of faith in a divine being that is separate?
Matt Ward: I think, uh, just let's set aside, uh, faith for a second 'cause [00:05:00] that's, that's important to talk about, um, uh, on its own. Um, but it, it, it's certainly not my claim that, that n- New Atheism is the first religion that ever decided to use reason. Um, in fact, they all have, and in fact, they all have evolved with the, with the, the knowledge, you know, that, um, with what we've learned, right?
Um, you know, the, the, the Catholic Church, um, you know, locked up Galileo 'cause he said that the, the, uh, the Earth went around, um, the, uh, the, the Sun went around the Earth, excuse me. Um, and, you know, now they teach heliocentrism. They now accept, um, evolution. So I think that's where the, the, the collision happens between reason and dogma, not between reason and religion. In fact, reason and religion have been partners all the time. So what I'm trying to do is to just say, "Look, let's, this is the, this has been going on. Let's, let's just accept this as a core [00:06:00] principle, and rather than being dragged kicking and screaming as new knowledge comes out, let's make that, that uncertainty, let's make the doubt, let's make the, the, the quest for new knowledge, um, core to the, to our, the way that we view the world, the way that we, and the way that we try to facilitate, uh, progress and flourishing."
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Mm-hmm. Well, and so, you know, I think, I think we're getting into the area of faith, um- And sort of dogmatic beliefs versus reason. So I grew up with the why are we, why do we have two sets of plates, one for meat and one for dairy?
And was told that like, "Well, back then we didn't have the sort of technology that we needed to keep things separate and healthy. Um-
Speaker 5: Yeah ...
Paula Lehman-Ewing: now we have that, but we still do it. And the way that I understand that is the connection to those stories that you said that, that give us comfort, and that connects us to the ancestors and, and all that sort of stuff.
So, so when you see that practice [00:07:00] Um, through the lens of new atheism, um, what... Is that not an expression of faith? Is that more a dis- a, an expression of dogma?
Matt Ward: Well, I think it, it would be an expression of dogma if you still believed that, um, you c- have to have two plates because God said so. Hmm. And I think the, the, um, I think m- many people, uh, and I would s- I would say, you know, maybe, um, most modern Jewish people, um, certainly in, in the, the, certainly in the, in the US, um, don't see it that way.
This is a connection to the culture. It's a connection. It's ritual. It's, it's bonding. It's, it, it is... But they don't literally believe that they have to do this because it was, it was ordained by the, by, uh, uh, by God. Um, or, or there's cer- there are lots and lots of people who, who, who think that way. I think it, it's particularly true of the, of, [00:08:00] um, the Jewish faith because there's such a, a wide variety.
I have some close friends who actually left the synagogue that they were, uh, where they all met because they, um, it just was too m- much of the, kind of the, the religion and dogma and that stuff, and they, they, but they wanted all the ritual.
They wanted the connection, so they formed a friend group, and I, I gather that that's not an uncommon thing. So I think that's the, um, the, the faith part, and again, if we define faith as belief in something in the absence of evidence, right, as opposed to confidence, right? The more, the more meaning of faith of just having confidence in something.
But if you believe in something in the, in the, in the absence of evidence that it's, that it's, you know, it's literally true, um, that's, I think, where the, um, uh, where we can get into these conflicts, right? Where you have d- different faith-based, um, beliefs that are, that are, uh, accepted as certainties that collide with each other.
And of course, history and [00:09:00] the modern world is, is littered with all kinds of, of ghastly conflicts that are rooted in that, that problem.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Right. Well, I mean, in that case, is, is part of the problem that, that you're trying to solve this idea that, of unquestioning? So the idea that, um, that, you know, we- Someone said this one day, and we have believed that, and we're so we're gonna keep believing it without question, versus someone who says, "You know, I've been reading this.
It doesn't feel like... What do you think?" And, "Oh, yeah, it doesn't feel like that for me either. Maybe we should do a more spiritual practice than a, quote, 'religious practice.'" So is, like, critical thinking kind of one of the things that you're trying to express as what could be wrong with, um, not wrong, but that could be an issue with religion as it is?
Matt Ward: Yeah, I mean, I think the, the, um, the analogy I use is [00:10:00] the, is the fork in the road. And so if we think of the, the, a, a fork in the road being the, the level of knowledge, right? And the... And there, there are two forks that we need to think about. One is, is an individual's knowledge. What, what does a, an individual know?
And then there's the collective knowledge, what everybody knows. And so in, in more ancient times, you know, if you lived in a little, uh, hunter-gatherer village, the distance between an individual fork and the collective fork was very small. Everybody kind of knew everything, right? Maybe there's, you know, one person who's really good at, uh, making baskets, another person who's really good at, at hunting, but essentially everybody, uh, knew everything.
That distance, as we've progressed and as knowledge has gotten just so incredibly vast, is now massive. So, um, built into that is-- should be some, uh, humility and awe. We should be humble about the level of knowledge that we possess as individuals while being incredibly grateful for this huge [00:11:00] body of, of knowledge that we use, you know, all day, every day with our tiny little slice to, to live these longer, um, but more comfortable lives.
So the, the, that, that fork in the road has, has moved forward over, over history and continues to move forward. And we understand, um, very clearly what that process is, the process of reason, which is we, um, speculate about things that, that could be. We have, and in science, you know, hypotheses and theories, um, but also in, in the more-- in the, the religious and spiritual, uh, world, we speculate about, uh, uh, answers to phenomena that we don't understand.
Uh, there's-- They're unanswered questions. And we just have to be, um, humble and intellectually honest about what it is that we really know and, and see those things as, as speculative, um, which are still capable [00:12:00] to be, um, evaluated with reason, right? If somebody tells me that, um, a, uh, a, a mysterious, uh, timeless power created the universe, and somebody else tells me that the universe is a, is a, a turd that came out of a giant cosmic bunny, y- I can use reason to evaluate which of those is more likely to be true.
I don't need to wait until, you know, uh, physicists figure out what happened before the Big Bang. So I think the, the, um, it's really about, uh, epistemic humility, uh, the gratitude for the incredible knowledge that we've, that we use every day, and then understanding that the, the process of trying speculative paths, seeing what works and figuring out what doesn't and ca- well, well, backtrack from that when it doesn't work and go down here until you actually get something that sticks.
That process is at work not just with science and, and technology, but with, with more, uh, s- more spiritual, more metaphysical questions. [00:13:00]
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Right. But I do-- I think I wanna s- I wanna stay here 'cause I think this is, like, where, where some real... where we can dig in deeper, is that this idea of speculation as the engine of progress, right?
Is the idea that, oh, well, these-- what we don't know is an opportunity for humility and to, to be inspired by all that is beyond us, um, and all that awaits. But, you know, at some point, Galileo sounded like the guy who was saying that the Earth is a bunny turd, you know? So, like, it's what-- Like, I'm wondering what that distinguish- that-- what distinguishes supernatural speculation from scientific speculation.
Why is scientific speculation, in your mind, more productive and relig- religious speculation isn't?
Matt Ward: Well, I've, I've, I would say that it certainly has been true that that scientific speculation has been more, but there's a lot of [00:14:00] overlap there. I mean, one of the things that, that science has done, and that, that reason and knowledge have done is, is, and it does this, it, on, on a massive scale, is convert supernatural explanations into natural ones.
So, you know, primitive, uh, uh, would look at the thunder and sky and the rain and think, you know, "Why the heck is this happening? That's terrifying," and, um, come up with a story about a, about, uh, gods or spirits or something that were causing this phenomena. Well, now we understand w- why all of those things happen, and we, we have natural explanations that replace those supernatural ones.
So the, the process of, of reason, which is, you know, c- creates knowledge, and knowledge being defined as our current best explanation, always, always provisional, right? Is that, that process turns supernatural explanations into natural ones. So there's, um, w- while there are, are certainly, or there are likely [00:15:00] questions that we know about now, that we know to ask that we don't know the answer to, that may turn out to be unanswerable, it certainly has been the case throughout history that from that position, it turned out there really were answers to those questions, and there really were natural explanations for them.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just, I... So here's, here's the, my sticking point, is that it goes back to the very first thing you said about these stories that, that we as human beings gravitate towards and that we unite around. And, and for me, I think religion is serving a different purpose than philosophy, that the distinction is that people can find comfort in religion.
So, like, to your point about evolution, I tell my kids the same thing I heard when I heard about thunder and lightning, that, like, there's a rock concert going up in heaven, and so that's why it's so loud. And that brings them comfort to know that, like, they're not in danger. And then they'll [00:16:00] go through the science class, and they'll figure out all the other stuff.
But at, in the moment, that works for them. That gives them comfort. Mm-hmm. That's a story. The other, you know, in, in a more extreme example, you know To your point where like we're, where the limits of reason are, I, I truly believe there are things that we are never gonna know the answer to. So if I go to a children's cancer ward, then, and I look around and I s- start to speculate what is...
Like, why this is happening, that is not... I don't know what I'm gaining out of speculating why children get cancer, as much as I am, like, putting faith in that I'm not gonna know. So for me, the humility doesn't come from the pursuit of a constant, a constant pursuit of answer, but in the understanding that I don't get to know stuff like that
Matt Ward: Yeah.
Well, it, it's, [00:17:00] it's-- it is certainly the case that there could be things that, without... we may never figure out, and it's, and it's likely, assuming that, you know, we don't, uh, uh, exterminate ourselves, that, that the process of, of revealing more of these, you know, these unanswered questions, coming up with answers for them, um, will continue.
I-I, it's really interesting what you said about the, the, the rock concert in the sky thing. Um, my guess is that your children, as they get older and they know it, they still kind of, you know, get a little... they get something out of the idea that it's a rock concert in the sky, even when they know that it isn't.
So a, a small child, um, probably, you know, may, may well believe that the, the man in the red suit, when she sits in his lap at the, at the mall, that guy's gonna, he's gonna land a sled on her house, and he's gonna bring her a toy, the toy she asked for.
And that's-- and everybody just thinks that's a wonderful thing. Well then, sh- over time, you know, that child evolves into a symbolic believer.
And I think that that's an, that is an evolution that is, that is happening in, in, uh, across religions. [00:18:00] Certainly, there are lots of people who are, are resistant, there are lots of people who are, um... the, the comfort of the, of dogmatic certainty is, is just too much, you know, is too much to give up.
That's... it's, it's too big to ask to give up, and I, I totally get that. And I certainly, you know, wouldn't go into a, a children's, uh, cancer ward and start lecturing the, the suffering parents about, you know, their, their, um, metaphysical shortcomings. Um, I mean, it would be ridiculous. If it, uh, these things are bringing comfort and, and connection, I think that's great.
But I think that there is this big gray area, use that term again, of people who are no longer satisfied with the, with the dogmatic explanations but want something that's, uh, more connected. And I think what I'm, what I'm offering is commitment to, um, a process more than, you know, commitment to a, a s- a story being, being literally true.
The process being the humility about what any individual knows, [00:19:00] confidence in collective reason,.
So it's that process that is the, is the commitment, not the, not, uh, uh, the acceptance of a narrative.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: So I, but I think there's a small adjustment 'cause we, we got back to dogma, but I still think that, like, what if faith isn't about rejecting reason, but obs- but accepting that reason has limits? So, like, is there value in saying, "I don't know," instead of trying to replace a mystery with another explanation?
Matt Ward: Well, I think, I think the I, I don't know is, is, you know... I, I, I might have called, you know, n- maybe it would've been a better title to call New Atheism I Don't Know, 'cause it really is kind of the core- I-don't-know-ism ... of it. Yeah, I-don't-know-ism. I mean, I think the, the... You know, again, that, it, that would certainly express the, the humility about the individual level of individual [00:20:00] knowledge, right?
Which is, is a key part of this, and it would, uh, express the... I mean, or maybe more accurately would be, you know, I don't, I don't... I know almost nothing, but we collectively know a lot, and I think that's the, um, that's the dynamic I'm, I'm looking for. I think that the f- that the faith part is now you're standing at the fork in the road, and now with, with just talking about kinda the, the metaphysical claims, right?
And y- there's a, there's a particular speculative path that you've, that you've picked, whatever it is, and this ranges from very, um, kind of amorphous ideas about, about the divine and, and you know, how everything was created to v- really specific ones. But all of these different, all of these different speculative paths, I think it's, it's a call to be intellectually honest about the idea that these, we, that we don't know.
We don't know. I don't know. The, you know, the, um, the... And, and to me, [00:21:00] responsible atheists and agnostics say, "I don't know." They don't say, "God doesn't exist." That's as, that's as silly a claim as, as saying that a, a particular kind of god does.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: I also think that there's How do I put this? Like, there is a difference between coming to that fork in the road and deciding which speculative path to take, right?
Individual knowledge, collective knowledge, knowing that, like, I don't know, but we might know. Um, there's a difference be- between that and saying This is the end of the road for me. I'm okay with not knowing. Because I don't know, like at s- at some point, does, does reason teach acceptance, or does it always encourage another question?
And if, if that's the case, doesn't it start to [00:22:00] replace that comfort that we get from faith with restlessness?
Matt Ward: Well, I, I, I think that that has happened to a certain extent for some people, right? Mm. That I think the, the, um, the chipping away at the, um, more scientific truth claims of traditional religions has caused, you know, crisis of faith in many people.
Um, so but your, your question, I, I... If I, if I understood you correctly, is that, you know, once you get to, once an individual gets to the point where, where you're, you're comfortable with your w- w- with not knowing the answers to a lot of, a lot of these questions, um, is that okay? Or is that, is that a, uh, a, a violation of the, of the process of reason?
And of course it's okay. You know, it's, there's... It's not for... One of the great things about the collective process of reason is that, is that, you know, uh, you get the r- the [00:23:00] right groups of people working on the right stuff. The, the canon of knowledge is so massive now that it's... We're, we're getting divided up into narrower and narrower little vertical, um, uh, areas of, of knowledge and expertise, where people are rattling around and, and arguing with each other and trying to falsify each other's ideas, and that's how we, we move, the, it moves forward collectively.
So you don't have to be, um, uh, uh, the... You can, you can pick whatever point you wanna get off the train in what you're learning, and the humility actually helps with that. For me personally, um, you know, I grew up in a, in a household of intellectual, uh, uh, economics professor father, librarian mother, staunch atheists, and, um, it was k- there was kind of like, it's not okay to know, not know something.
So there was a lot of incentive to pretend you know something when you don't, or pretend that your knowledge about something is far deeper than it really is. And it's, it, it was really, really, um, wonderful to let that go, and to realize that, that [00:24:00] yeah, it's, I actually, you know... What I, what I really know, being honest about what I really know, and marveling at how this incredible process that's going on all the time, that's generating all this knowledge that I get to use every day to lead this, uh, you know, life that I'm living, that, uh, you know, virtually all of the 100 billion humans that ever lived would think was a, a paradise, a paradise, an aft- an afterlife paradise.
Um, or even beyond what they could, what they could have dreamed of. So I think, I think that's the, um, uh, the... I, I think I don't know is just fine. Not being part of it i- is not only fine, but can be really liberating, and you kind of release yourself into this, um, force. I even, I go so far in the book as to compare, um, I talk about the spirit of reason, and I talk about how so many religions have this idea of an invisible, um, hand force that is, is, provides you with blessings.
Well, that's reason. I mean, the, [00:25:00] the process of reason is working all the time, all over the world, to develop new knowledge and things that, that, that create, that make our lives better, that bring really tangible, measurable blessings, and we know how it works. We can see how it works. So even though you can't touch or taste it like, like a spirit, we actually know it exists, and, you know, sub- giving yourself up to that, which is for, you know, speaking for myself, is kind of what I did by, by deciding that I didn't have to pretend that I know things that I don't know, and to accept that this, that the process of reason is actually sorting this stuff out was, was really a pretty profound experience for me.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Yeah. You know what, I, and I think that, that maybe my, my... I guess what I'm thinking is, like, the unknown, right? What we don't know, what the collective knows, but we still have yet to find out, that sort of becomes an invitation in new, in, in New Autonism, [00:26:00] right? It becomes a invitation to speculate, a invitation to look to what the collective knowledge is, a, an invitation to, like, stop or proceed.
This unknown is because of... it becomes sort of an invitation when it arises. And I think sometimes the unknown is just where we live. Like, that's just where we are. And so religion, at least to me, as, as, as I've come to sort of explore it in my own mind, hasn't been about explaining suffering as much as it has been helping people survive suffering.
And for me, I, I wonder, like, if understanding would ever be able to replace faith or if it should. Like, I don't know if I understood the reasons why, you know, certain people were taken from my life too early. I don't know if that- Mm-hmm ... understanding would provide [00:27:00] me much. And so I guess, I guess maybe the f- the real tension here is that, there's a desire on your behalf to, to pursue that unknown, and there's a comfort that I'm finding in, in letting it be unknown. Does that make sense?
Matt Ward: Yeah, I think I, I, I get that, and I mean, um, and not to put too fine a point on it, but I think the, um, w- I think many Christians would have said a similar thing about the age of the Earth, um, you know, not just a few hundred years ago. So I think the, the, um... And it, and it... Because that, there's the, the comfort in knowing that, that, you know, God is out there, and that God created the Earth, and that the Bible is actually, you know, God talking to me.
Um, and so I think the, the, um... Y- you, you certainly don't have to, to, um, become a physicist and try to and join that, join that quest. But I mean, for all we know, it may turn out... I mean, there are theories that are already out there that this is the, you know, there are lots and lots of [00:28:00] universes. Or that this one isn't...
You know, the Big Bang is, is followed a big contraction, and it's a timeless, cyclical thing. I mean, there are just all of these different, um, speculations about it and, um, you know, we, we may well uncover, uh, the, the, the answer to that, the, that little fraction of, of time af- uh, not only that little fraction of time after the Big Bang, but maybe things that happened before it.
We just, we just don't know. Uh, Lawrence Krauss, in his, in, uh, his book, um, the, uh, Known Unknowns, he uses the example of A 15th century peasant trying to understand quantum mechanics. It would, it would just be... And, and that's something that's, that's really understood now by a lot of people and, and every, you know, computer device and GPS and, I mean, is, is the...
O- our understanding of quantum mathematics is, is, is fundamental to modern life. Um, and, and now more than 100 years old. And, uh, but, uh, you know, to a 15th century peasant, it just... You couldn't possibly. It'd be trying to, like, teaching your dog how to make spaghetti. I mean, it just can't... [00:29:00] You, you, you, you couldn't get there.
So these things all change, and where these comforts lie change, too. That's all part of this, part of this evolution.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, um, I certainly learned a lot, and I'm still sort of turning circles in my head. I guess if, you know, just to close, um, if you were to strip dogmatic belief out of the current religions, um, would you still need a new religion to replace it, or would something like an ethical philosophy suffice?
Matt Ward: Well, I think the, um... What I would say is that, that my, my goal is not to, is not conversion. I'm not trying to, you know, sign up a couple billion of you know, uh, new oddness. Um, I mean, if so- someone is a Christian who, uh, embraces intellectual humility and sees s- scripture symbolically rather than dogmatically, they value collective reason, they s- you [00:30:00] know, they believe in human flourishing, I, I wouldn't wanna stop them from being a, a Christian.
Same thing for a, a Jew or a Buddhist or, or a Muslim. Um, I mean, w- I'm not trying to create, uh, identities. I'm not, and I'm not, certainly not trying to replace identities. I'm trying to offer a framework for people whose understanding of religion is, is already evolved or who find, would find that f- uh, framework helpful.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Yeah. I, I, I appreciate that distinction because I think a lot of people will look at the bio or, or, you know, and be like, "This guy's trying to be the new Scientology guy." And sh- just like, no, this is a, it's a framework for practicing more than it is a like ditch all that other stuff and come to me, which is why I'm glad you're, you're exploring that gray area.
So I appreciate that a lot. Um, is the book out already? Where can people find you if they wanna look you up after listening?
Matt Ward: Yeah, it's, it is, uh, available on, uh, Amazon. Um, probably the, the easiest place to send people is just to my website 'cause it has [00:31:00] links to everything, all my social and, uh, uh, the, you know, where you can find the book and there's a, a blog with a lot of hopefully interesting, uh, entries.
So the newoddnism.org is probably the, the, the best place to link people to.
Paula Lehman-Ewing: Okay, great. I'll put that in the show notes as well. I really appreciate you spending time with me to, to talk about this. I, I don't usually get to have a, a lot of candid gray area conversations about religion.
And I, I, I really enjoyed having this conversation about like when you really think about it, what is our connection to faith and religion and what those things mean to us today. So I appreciate you taking me through that. Thanks.
Matt Ward: Thanks for having me. It was a great conversation.