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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got Petra Blo, who is Dutch and
is a little bit of a legend in her
area of problem solving problem horses.
Now what has that got to do
with equine assisted world?
What it really has to do with is equine
wellbeing and I became aware of Petra
when she came on a retreat that I did,
and we began to talk a, a year and
a half or so ago, and then I got to
see her in action with a horse that
was, let's say, on the nervous end.
And I watched her use tools that were
unusually reassuring for the horse.
And then I found out more about her
own story and that she had actually
become a special needs rider,
effectively, both physically and
mentally after a terrible accident.
And had come to the professional
side of horses, actually pretty
late in by most, you know,
equestrian professional standards.
And I became rather intrigued at how
effective she was especially with.
People in the Netherlands with very,
very complex sport horses coming
to her, and she's just getting this
sort of consistent track record.
And I think for many of us in the equine
assisted field, we're getting these
horses coming to us with trauma's a much
overused word, but let's just say stories
in their life, in their nervous system
that maybe impair their own wellbeing.
And if we can accept that a horse
cannot give wellbeing unless it has
wellbeing, then we really need to look
in a much more professional way, I
think at the donation horses that come
to us and not just sort of say, oh,
well it'll be fine, because it is true.
Quite often it is, but
quite often it isn't.
And some of those horses end up going
back to where they came from and then we
don't really know what happens to them.
But then the other thing is, and those
of you who know our program are aware
of this, that actually the rehab of
horses is as therapeutic a thing in its
own right to do as receiving therapy
from, if you like, a prepared horse.
The, the, the rehab of prospective
therapy horses we find in our.
Work is its own therapy.
It's massively empowering for people.
You take, you know, someone who came
back with trauma from the army or someone
who's had abuse or someone with a lot of
anxiety and say, Hey, listen, this horse
was broken to some degree in service.
Can you help me put this
horse back together so it can
serve this person over there?
The process of doing
that is its own therapy.
So I'm really intrigued to talk
to Petra about the methods she
uses and, and from all of us who
are professionals in this field.
You know, what can we learn and how can
we improve things in our own practice?
So thank you so much Petra,
for coming on the show.
And I'm sorry about the long preamble.
Can you tell us, you know, a bit more
about who you are, how'd you get into
this, and kind of what's your approach?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I'm Petra.
I'm from the Netherlands, and I've
been working as a horse behavior
trainer since I think 20, 25 years.
And before that I was a graphic
designer, so I was sitting behind
the computer making beautiful things
and never had my own horse before.
But I really like horse riding.
But I, I wasn't grow, I didn't
grow up in in a farm or in a area
that there were a lot of horses.
I was, I was living in the city in
the poor side of the city, so there
was no horse in, around that area.
So my dream as a little girl to
have my own horse didn't came
out as it was not possible.
But when I became a little bit
older, I still riding horses
on a, on a riding school.
And in 2001 I went to
Australia for a holiday.
And there I learned a lot about
natural horsemanship and that
was completely new for me.
So there was a new.
Yeah.
New, new way of handling horses
have, have a, an a total, yeah.
New way of having a, a a communication
and a relationship with a horse.
And after I went to Australia,
I was really like, whoa, this,
this is something special.
And it changed my mind about my
work, about my life, about yeah,
am I doing the things I want to do?
So in Australia, I thought, Hmm,
maybe I have to go one year, year
to Australia to learn a lot about
the woman who teach me the, the
basics of the natural horsemanship.
And then I went for a weekend
to Belgium, to the Aden.
And then I saw a horse and
it was a beautiful horse.
And I heard the story of the horse.
And he was eight years old and nobody
was able to ride him for five years.
He was very dangerous, very untrainable.
And he kicked he bit, he he was
angry and he was very scared.
So that was a tough
combination to to train.
And I fell in love immediately,
immediately with his horse.
And when I saw him, I had the
feeling we belong together.
It was stupid because I wasn't
planning to buy a horse.
Long story short, I bought him and
I wasn't a professional trainer.
I didn't have my own horse before, and I
bought a horse that nobody, professional
trainers, nobody was able to ride on.
So, I bought him as an how
do you say it in English?
Sorry.
I can
Rupert Isaacson: experiment.
Prospect,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Experiments.
It's, it is like, yeah, I, I, I, I,
I thought yeah, maybe with the, the
things I've learned in, in Australia,
maybe it's possible to to get a
better relationship with this horse.
And I had a feeling it wasn't nobody
under understood this horse before.
So I bought him and, I had
a lot of problems because he
broke my arm by trailer loading.
So he, he kicked me and broke
both bones of, of my underarm.
He
Rupert Isaacson: like on
the first day loading him or
Petra Vlasblom: No, it, I, I, of course
I have to pick him, picking him up.
Picking him.
Sorry.
Rupert Isaacson: Had to pick him up.
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
In, in, in in Belgium.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: And it took two days
to get him on in, in the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And after two days, we
did a lot of how do we say it in English?
Tranquilizers in his foot.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And then
we get him on the trailer.
But it was not the Right, he
Rupert Isaacson: was sedated, right.
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Sedated.
Yeah.
And it was not the right way, of course.
And after that, I, I started because
I was so interested in the behavior
of horses and also the behavior
of horses that are misunderstood.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: Or maybe not
trained well, I don't know.
At that time I didn't knew.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And and I started
all schoolings courses because
I really want to have more
knowledge about horse behavior.
So, then I have, have to ask other people
who knew, knew more about horse behavior.
Rupert Isaacson: And I presume you had
this horse at a public stable, right?
You didn't have this horse at home
because at that time you didn't have
Petra Vlasblom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: The
facilities, yeah, yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
Public stable.
And it was, it was terrible.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: When I arrived
there, it took me two, three
hours to get him into the stable.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Because he
thought it's the same as the
trailer and don't get in there.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Petra Vlasblom: So he
was, he was terrible.
He broke my arm.
He throw me off every time.
And it was a tough journey.
Rupert Isaacson: And this
horse, this is the horse.
Two moons?
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
He's still
Petra Vlasblom: alive.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
He's still alive.
You barely what was the reaction
of the other people in the stable
to having a horse like this?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
They didn't like him at all.
And he was like yeah.
He's so difficult.
He was difficult for everyone.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
So he hurts you.
He's impossible for everybody.
You get interested in
horse behavior naturally.
What happens then?
Petra Vlasblom: Then I.
I learned a lot and I, I learned I, I
had a lot of instructors to, to work
with him, but every time I thought,
Hmm, it's not as I, I, I realized it,
it was not the way to handle this horse.
So it was not successful.
And at that time I thought, oh with my
love, I can I can change the mind of
the horse because I love him so much.
I'm, I'm taking good care of him.
And he will trust me and begin to
have a better communication with me.
La la la.
I, I thought with my love,
everything will be okay.
Rupert Isaacson: And what happened?
Petra Vlasblom: I've
seen a lot of hospitals.
Rupert Isaacson: So what was the first
HOS hospital thing that your love put you
Petra Vlasblom: into?
To my, my broken arm.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And then, and
then he dislocated my hip.
Rupert Isaacson: How did he do that?
Petra Vlasblom: By throwing me off.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: I have the
video, Rupert, we can show them.
Really?
I have the video that
he, he, it kicked me off.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: He was bucking
and and running so hard.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: and you had
professionals look at his back?
You, you, you checked him out
from a veterinary point of view.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
No problem at all.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And at that time I realized he
was like a mirror to me because
he was angry and he was scared.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And it was very tough
to work with him because sometimes he
was scared and he wants to run away,
but he was on a rope or something,
so I couldn't I could I, I, I could
have hold him and and sometimes he
was so angry and he was kicking and
biting and he was like very aggressive.
And
Rupert Isaacson: you say that
he was like, your mirror.
Were you behaving like this as well?
Petra Vlasblom: To be honest.
There was one thing that was
very much like the the most, the,
the, I I, I saw that two moons.
He wants to have the control.
He couldn't get the control
to me or to another person.
And to be honest, I had the same problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Talk to us about that.
Petra Vlasblom: And he
confront con confront
Rupert Isaacson: confronted,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Confronted me with my own
anger and my own fear.
And I realize,
Rupert Isaacson: okay, but let's just
say if, if everybody in the stable was
also having trouble with him, and I
presume that there were people who were
employed to feed him, to muck him out,
his stable, were they all also angry and
Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no
Rupert Isaacson: looking for control or
was he okay with some of these people?
Petra Vlasblom: No, no.
He was most okay with me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: So I could do the, the
most things a little bit better than,
than, than the other people around him.
But I realized that he confront,
confronted, confront me.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
He was confronting you.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Because I, I also was walking around with
a lot of anger and a lot of fear, and
Rupert Isaacson: I And why was that?
Why were you walking around
with this anger and fear?
Petra Vlasblom: I think
we had the same history.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Because I, I had
I had a history from my childhood
that it was not okay to be myself.
Mm-hmm.
So there were a lot of
problems in the, in the family.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I'm
a very honest person.
I, I want to get out.
What you see is what you get.
Mm-hmm.
And I want to be honest, and then I'm in
my power, even as a child, but it was not
possible to talk about a lot of things.
So I had to.
To yeah, to like freeze.
I was in, in kind of freeze at
that moment also as a child.
Mm.
But I'm a tough girl and I was, I
was successful in my work and I was
having a nice life and I was happy.
And so I never talked about it,
but because of two Moon, because
of this horse, I realized, okay,
I've got something to yeah.
To work out because we
have the same problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And I couldn't, I
couldn't give the control to anyone else.
I always wanted to have the control.
Okay.
And it's the same with two moons.
He wants to want, always
wanted to have the control.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: So it was like,
Rupert Isaacson: so this culminated
in a really big accident, right?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So tell us about that.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I was riding
him and I was I was studying horse,
horse riding, and it was a school
in Belgium three year, and it was
like a holistic dress high school.
So you, you I had a lot of
interesting interesting.
How do we say it?
Lessons.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And I have to
I have to practice for an like,
dressage competition kind of thing.
Okay.
And I did it with two moons and somebody
was Oh, my, my, my my boyfriend, he
was taping film, filming it, and so I
said, oh, there, I'm going to gallop
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And suddenly he was barking
and yeah, I fell off and Okay.
With, I, I, I stood, stood up immediately,
but I, I, I fainted because of the pain.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And then of
course they called the ambulance.
I was in the hospital and I
couldn't work for two months.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Petra Vlasblom: what happened?
So I had a lot of time to think.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And what had you done?
What was the injury?
Petra Vlasblom: He dislocated
my hip so I couldn't walk.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That was the hip.
It
Petra Vlasblom: was painful.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
So then you are parked on the couch.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you were in petro
Petra Vlasblom: parking, everyone was
finished with this horse, of course, yes.
Because I could in, in two months
I had a broken arm and I, I was
just out of the, how do you say?
Cast?
The
Rupert Isaacson: cast
Petra Vlasblom: The
cast for two, two weeks.
And then I dislocated my hip.
So I have to call my my boss.
And I said, I'm so sorry.
But I fall, fell off my horse
and I don't know when I can,
can get to work, but no worries.
My laptop is on in bed.
I'm going to work.
No worries.
I will work even harder than
I was on the company side.
But every, everyone was
finished with this horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what next
Petra Vlasblom: then?
I'm, yeah, I, I, I realized for
two months, okay, why, what am I
triggering, triggering with this
horse where that he's going, yeah.
Going to be that dangerous.
And then I realized yeah,
I have to work on myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So what happens then?
You work on yourself?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, so I went to
therapy and I went to, went to courses
and I did a lot of self-development.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I, I.
Understand why it was a problem for me
to to give the control to somebody else.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And, and, and, and
I, I realized that after I, I started
working on myself, there was a major
change in the relationship with my horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
What happened to, to
show give us an example.
Petra Vlasblom: There was
so much more connection.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And I'm
a very restless person.
I'm very impatient.
And and there was a time that my
boyfriend was working in the stable,
he was cleaning the stable, and one of
the one of the friends on the stable
came to him and said, I saw Pat working
with a horse, and I've never seen
somebody working with a horse so quiet.
So relaxed.
So, so in love.
So in, in such a beautiful connection.
Hmm.
And my boyfriend thought,
Hmm, is it, is this about pet?
I really have to go and have a look
because this is not how, how I know Pedro.
So there is something inside myself, there
was changing something inside myself.
And I found like more rest in myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Is that clear?
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
More rest, more contentment perhaps.
Okay.
So things get better
and then what happens?
Petra Vlasblom: And then I could
ride him, I could load him on
the trailer even on my own.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: So there's a
major change in, in this horse.
And then the first questions came
oh, you had a very difficult horse.
But it's so easy now.
Can you help me?
Because I also have a,
this difficult horse.
So I stopped my, I, I stopped
working in the advertisement agency.
Mm-hmm.
And I began my own
company, my own business.
Rupert Isaacson: And that's when
two Moon's Equestrian was born.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
I think in 2002 to 2003.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Yeah.
So again, just keep going with the
story because it gets interesting.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, so I started
my own company and I began to train
horses and I, I liked it so much.
Yeah.
I really liked it.
And and in, at that time,
I, I was working, yeah.
All day with long, with, with horses.
And I noticed some of the horses,
not all horses, but with working
with some of the horses there became
like a special special connection.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And sometimes
with horses that were really
aggressive or attacking people.
Mm-hmm.
And when I was able to stand
next to the horse and to touch
them by the chest and by the, oh,
how, how do I say it in English?
It's just before the settle,
Rupert Isaacson: the,
the, the, the weather.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Yeah.
When I touched the horse there was in,
in the beginning there was a lot of,
like, it was, it looks like there was
an inner, inner inner stress of the war.
Mm-hmm.
Sort.
Yeah, stress angriness and.
Not able to, to make the
communication don't trust me
enough to make communication.
Yeah.
And then suddenly it was changing and
the horse became soft relaxed soft in
the face, soft in the, in the body.
And there was a, like a
really deep connection.
And I have a lot of movies and videos
ab from, from that kind of work.
So it's easy to show it than to tell it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Almost like a kind of reassuring body work
Petra Vlasblom: effectively.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and, and and I realized,
hmm, that's something special.
And yeah.
But it was there.
And, and after there, after that, yeah.
Special connection, the
horse changes completely.
Not only with me, but also with his owner
and in, in, in interaction with his owner.
He wasn't angry anymore,
not aggressive anymore.
There was a major change, but I
couldn't explain, so everybody
asked me, what are you doing?
I said, I don't do anything.
I'm only present, but I
don't do something specific.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: I fought.
I fought.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
But it turns out you were
doing something specific.
Petra Vlasblom: I did not do
for a long time, Rupert, because
everybody ask me, what are you doing?
Are you spiritual?
Are you working on a energetic way?
And I said, no, I'm not spiritual.
I said, no, I'm just here.
I'm just present.
I work with a lot of love.
I don't use pressure or force,
don't force horses to do something.
I just give them the chance to, to
work together and to, to get a better
relationship, relationship together.
And I did it for, I, I think 20
years, but I, I didn't dare to show
the videos, so I only showed the
videos to my students, or I, I haven't
thought yet that I started the school.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
But yes, if you couldn't explain what you
were doing, how could you start a school?
Because you need, you need a curriculum.
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
No, I to be honest, in
2010, I had so much work.
I was working seven days a week.
I, I, I couldn't handle the work.
So, clients asked me, don't you
have anything else to work with?
And I thought, no, I, I.
I don't have any fun anyone else
to work with because I do it
so different than the normal,
natural, well horsemanship methods.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: So I work
a little bit different.
So, so
Rupert Isaacson: this
is gonna be my question.
So when people are listening to your
story and they say, okay, Petra went to
Australia to learn natural horsemanship,
then she gets this difficult horse, then
she goes to a holistic dressage place,
which is probably using a fair bit of
natural horsemanship in the way that we
all think of as natural horsemanship.
And now suddenly you're
not doing that anymore.
So question number one, why did you stop
doing the normal natural horsemanship?
And question two, what did you do instead?
Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, I, I
looked at, at everyone everywhere.
I tried everything.
But, and I still use some of the methods
or some of the how do you say it?
Rupert Isaacson: Like the round
pen and that sort of thing?
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
But the round pen, I don't use it for
the, the something that's funny because
I don't use it to train the horses.
Mm-hmm.
I use the ramping to train the
students on their body L language.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: So it's different.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So what did you learn
about body language that was different
to the normal natural horsemanship?
Petra Vlasblom: Because if you work
with horses and you are aware of
every part of your body, like your
hands, your is it open, is it closed?
Is it, is it round?
Are your movements round or like this
or and I, when I'm working with horses
especially when I work with horses that
don't want to be touched or doesn't
trust anyone anymore, it's very it's
important that I, I use this, the,
the, the body language that is okay
for the horse and every little signal
can be too much for a horse like that.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And, and so
I teach my students yeah.
What's the difference between when your
are should is a little bit like this
or like this, when you are standing in
front of doors or your, the point of
your toe toes it can stop the horse.
Even a running horse.
It can stop the horse.
When, when, when you are, the
point of your toys is to toes.
The point of your toes
is in front of the horse.
Hmm.
Or you can even stop the
horse when you are lunging.
So
Rupert Isaacson: it's,
Petra Vlasblom: It's,
it's very interesting.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you begin to teach students
how to handle their body language
in a way that wins trust does
not trigger the horse negatively.
This I can understand was, was
the hip dislocation your last trip
to the hospital with two moons?
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Not the last with horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so talk
Petra Vlasblom: I also broke my neck.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you, that's a, that's quite
a big thing to leave out.
All right.
So how did you break your neck?
Under what circumstances?
And then how did that inform
your work and what you do?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
That's what was not with my horse.
Two moons.
It was with
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Young
horse riding a young horse.
Rupert Isaacson: How many, how many
years after your last accident with
two moons, did you break your neck?
Petra Vlasblom: I think two oh oh.
10 years later, I think
Rupert Isaacson: 10 years later.
Okay.
So, so you have this success, you
have this breakthrough with two moons.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: People start noticing,
people start sending their horses to you.
At first.
You can't explain what you're doing,
but then you start to look at what
at your body and realize, oh, I see.
Maybe I can show people how to move
their bodies in a way with a horse
that helps the horse to win trust.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: This is successful for
a while, and then you break your neck.
So how, what is, you know,
because by now you, you know,
how to really handle horses.
What, what, what goes wrong?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yeah.
To be honest, I'm I'm,
I really like my work.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: So that's also
I don't know the English word,
but I really like my work, so I'm
working, working, working, working.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Sometimes
I don't listen to my body.
Okay.
And that was the, it was a real signal.
Pet don't work so hard because I,
at that time I was living in France.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: I had
my own place in France.
And Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So you become really
successful enough with this whole horse
rehab thing to buy a pla to get your own
place in France and run a business there.
All right.
Petra Vlasblom: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
How does it happen?
What, what was the
circumstances of the accident?
Just talk to us about the accident.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
It was a young, young horse and and to
be honest, I worked for seven weeks.
I had, I had a school, the school was
the school was in the Netherlands.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: And there were
three years of schooling, so it was
very intensive for the students.
Three years with 15 modules.
Okay.
And two of the 15 modules
are organized in France.
And one of the modules was like
working on your body language.
And the other mo module was
working on your behavior patterns.
So part of the, of the schooling
is working on yourself.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And personal development.
So I was working in France with
all the students, seven weeks
long with no no, free day.
So it was very, very,
Rupert Isaacson: the people have to
take seven weeks out of their life
Petra Vlasblom: to come.
No, no, no.
One week.
But I had seven.
Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Got yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And and then the last
group I was finished and I was I was free
and I thought I was and the next morning
I wake up and I thought, oh, I'm so tired.
But I have an appointment with Jean
Paul to ride his horse and with
white to, to ride two young horses.
But I was so tired and I felt, Hmm.
I don't, I don't have the feeling.
I don't, yeah.
Normally I'm really happy to work.
Yeah.
But at that time I thought, Hmm.
But the social feeling of, I, yeah, I
have an appointment, I have to do it.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, the obligation.
So
Rupert Isaacson: professional.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
I, so I went to the two horses, and
one of the horses was bucking and he
kicked me off and I was, I felt on
the ground with my chin on the ground,
but I had a lot of it, it was fast.
So I was right, like, with my chin
on the ground, and then I broke my
neck and I, yeah, I, my, my inside
of my mouth was how do you say it?
Like
Rupert Isaacson: Thorn?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: thorn.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
So, and then I was for
four months in a harness.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
So I al already had a
lot of time to think.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And what.
Was the result of those thoughts
Petra Vlasblom: that I have to be to, to
take care a little bit more about myself
and less for all the other yeah, animals,
but also also for my family and friends.
Because sometimes once a friend called
me and says do I have to buy a problem
horse to make an apartment with you?
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And she was right because
when she asked me, oh, do you have time
to go to like, for dinner or something?
I said, no, no, no.
I'm so, I'm so, I'm so,
Rupert Isaacson: busy with,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, busy working la la
and if, if there was somebody who says,
oh, I have real big problem with my horse.
I always, it was always, I
was always able to make time.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Petra Vlasblom: So I was running too hard,
working too hard, and I forgot myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Let me just ask you, as a horseman though,
some practical questions about the young
horse with whom you had this accident.
Did you have a sense of, yeah, maybe
I shouldn't get up on this horse.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
But I didn't listen.
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think
you got up and, and today if you
were with the same horse today?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Would you say this
horse is not ready for a rider now?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you think then?
Because by then you had accrued
quite a lot of experience.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What made you
think Yeah, it's, it's an okay
decision to get on this horse?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
I think maybe because I was tired and I, I
I was not concentrated good enough because
I am, I'm working with horses still, and
I'm fast because when a horse is doing
something, I'm, I have a very good and
very fast reaction better, and, and I fell
off, fell off the horse at that time, and
I fell on my chin where were my hands.
Normally you protect
yourself with your hands.
Mm.
So I was too tired.
I was not in my power.
It was such, such,
Rupert Isaacson: do you think if you had
been less tired and more in your power
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It would have been okay
to be on the horse or do you think in
any situation that horse was not ready?
Petra Vlasblom: No, I, I
think it was a combination.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, and I was
not, I was not concentrated enough.
It, it was like maybe I had a feeling
of I will ride to two horses and then
then I'm free for a, a couple of days.
Rupert Isaacson: Were you surprised that
the horse threw you or were did you think
yeah, I kind of knew that would happen.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
No, I was not surprised.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it was hard.
It was hard.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
So then you have this accident,
and this must have been quite
difficult for your ego because Yeah.
Now you are the professional,
you're the big professional.
You've got a school, you're the one
telling people how to be with horses.
You have this place in France,
and now you get chucked off
and you have this accident.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And okay.
You said, okay, I need to
take time for me, et cetera.
Sure.
But
there's more.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: When you came out of
that, cast the harness, and you said,
okay, I'm, I'm continuing with my career.
Forget the human side for a moment.
Let's just talk about the
horse side for a moment.
What fundamentally changed in your
evolution after that neck break?
You must have then said, okay,
I need to rethink a little bit.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How I'm doing this.
What were the main
things that you thought, okay, now I
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What did you change to?
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Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
The biggest lesson I've learned was
listening to my intuition and and do
what my is intuition is telling me.
And I, I think before that I was
listening to everyone who needs help
and now and, and after that accident,
I really listened to my intuition.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Because this is interesting to me.
It doesn't sound to me like you
were making an intellectual or an
ego decision to get on that horse.
It almost sounds to me like, and
this is a, this is a, a really
interesting, complex situation.
It sounds to me like you were actually
coming from a place of a decision from
the heart, meaning, I want to help.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I feel
an obligation to help
and listening to the
heart, but not the gut.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that is,
I think, a really interesting
distinction because normally when we
have these sorts of conversations.
It frequently goes to people saying,
well, I listened too much to the head.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I didn't listen enough
to the heart, or I didn't listen enough
to the gut, but I know what you mean.
I also have made decisions sometimes
that were too much heart-based
that ended up being just as wrong.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As if they
had been too much head-based.
That the gut is still really
the most powerful factor.
We often think, oh, a, a
decision from the heart.
That's a good decision.
It it is sometimes, but it isn't always.
And whereas gut kind of is always, which
makes us have to face the possibility,
the probability that the gut is the
most important part of the brain.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that actually
the heart is secondary and perhaps
the intellect is third, but it's,
I just wanted to draw attention to
this because you know, one would have
a lot of people saying heart-based
horsemanship or you know, we do a lot of
work with the Heart Math Institute, so
we think heart good and heart is good.
Petra Vlasblom: It is, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's
not enough by itself.
And that is interesting.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so you
go back in and you say, all right,
I need to be now more intuitive.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: More gut-based.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So how do
you change your approach?
What are the changes that we would see?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
To be, to be honest I was really
scared because for four months I
lived alone in France with horses,
with a dog, with all kind of animals.
I was alone in the harness.
Rupert Isaacson: Where was
the boyfriend by this time?
Petra Vlasblom: The boyfriend
I had when I bought two moons.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: He died.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I'm sorry.
Petra Vlasblom: No, it's okay.
Because it's a, it's
also a part of my life.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: Just before
we wanted to move to France.
Okay.
We, we found a house to li to move
to France, from the Netherlands
to France, and we wanted to
start a company in France.
And we found a beautiful place
and we, yeah, we de decided,
okay, we are going to move.
And we went to all the family
and friends with photos and
said, okay, we are going to move.
Look beautiful.
And yeah.
Then at one night he get a
heart attack and he died.
Rupert Isaacson: Shit.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes it did.
It was shit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And he had a company, I had a company,
so next day I had to run two companies.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And I was planning to
move to France, but I, yeah, it, it
was impossible because we wanted to
buy an old house and he was a handyman.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: So yeah.
The future was a little
bit different by then.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: And so I struggled to get
rid of his company and and I, I, I, yeah.
Gave it away to one of
his employee employees.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And then after I think
seven, eight months, I decided, okay, I'm
going alone with the two horses to okay.
To France.
So I moved to France.
So that's why there was no, no husband.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Got it.
Yes.
Got it.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And
Rupert Isaacson: so now
Petra Vlasblom: you
Rupert Isaacson: are honest
Petra Vlasblom: to, to be honest, when
I broke my neck, I was just in love with
another husband and now with my husband.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Is he okay?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And but when
you broke your neck, you'd fallen
in love with this man, but you
were not living with him at that
Petra Vlasblom: point?
No, no, no.
We were just, I think.
For couple of months together.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
So I was, I was alone.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: In France
I didn't have income
Rupert Isaacson: for
Petra Vlasblom: four months.
I couldn't work.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And I was afraid, can I
have, do my work again because mm-hmm.
Will I have a headache?
How, how, how do get I
get out of this harness?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: But yeah, no problem.
When, when the harness was out, I
felt, I felt good and I could work.
So I was really happy that I
was able to work, to get to,
to continue all the lessons and
Rupert Isaacson: alright.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But now you start
working in a different way and you,
how do you change your curriculum?
What are you telling your
students at this point?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I I, I
take my students I, I, I will tell
them a lot about the mistakes I make
because I also always say to them,
I didn't have the 50 mo modules.
I have, I have had a, i,
I made a lot of mistakes.
So I was in the after, after
some trainings in the car with
the mascara on my chin because
I didn't, I, I made mistakes.
I I have to learn a lot.
And now I tell my students you don't
have to make that mistake, because
I can tell you exactly yeah, how
to be powerful, how to be good for
yourself, but also good for the horse.
So, you have to take care of yourself and
you have to take care of the horse and
to take care of the owner of the horse.
So it's, it's like a
combination of things.
Rupert Isaacson: So can
you give us an example?
Naturally, our curiosity is, is there
give us an example that you would
tell your students of a time you ended
up with raccoon eyes, with the, the,
the mascara running down your face
that you would say to your students,
now you don't have to do this.
Give us an example of that situation.
Petra Vlasblom: Now, one of the examples
is that when, when you are training
horses, it's not always successful.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And in the learning
curve of an, of a horse, but also the
learning curve of human beings, it's like
line is going up uphill, eh, like this.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: But there are always, I
don't know the English word, but there
are always like holes in the line.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Peaks and valleys.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Yes.
And that's a part of the, a
part of the learning curve, so,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
So what, okay.
Give us, give us a concrete example
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And
how one would avoid it.
So,
Petra Vlasblom: so when you are
training like a horse with trailer
loading problems, and you are going
there and and you, you, you are
successful, the horse is going into
the trailer and it, it's his choice to
get in and the owners are very happy.
And then there is a situation that
owners calling you and says, okay,
the horse doesn't load anymore
and you didn't do the right job.
La la la, la.
And then I always says, it's, it's just,
it's, it's a part of the learning system.
So, it's not that you didn't do your
job well, but go again train the
horse, train the owner, and, and let
them experience how to get back on
the, on the, on the learning curve.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And it's part,
it's part of the training.
So it, so it's, it's, it of course can
be very disappointing at that time,
but it's, it's a part of training,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
I know that you specialize
now a lot in the.
Loading horses, difficult,
impossible horses.
Yeah.
And everyone is always intrigued by this
because we have all been in the position
where it's getting dark or it is dark.
Petra Vlasblom: You have to go home
Rupert Isaacson: and you can't go.
It's
Petra Vlasblom: raining.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And
give us your 1, 2, 3, your standard
way of saying first, what do you do
when somebody is in this situation?
Because I know you could say, well,
they should have prepared, but we
know that often this does not happen.
So let's say you get a call from
somebody who's sitting somewhere at
night saying, I can't load the horse.
Petra, come.
So let's start with that situation,
and then let's go to your conversation
with that person afterwards,
perhaps the next week, and say, Hey,
listen, what you need to do with
this horse is this, this, and this.
So let's start with the crisis.
You get the call, they call Petra.
Petra shows up.
It's 12 o'clock at night.
The horse has been.
Not loading since nine o'clock.
You know,
Petra Vlasblom: it ha it
happened so many times.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Talk us through the
situation step by step.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What happened in a situation like
that is that, that everyone is angry,
everyone is stressed, everyone is
having tired fight with each other.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
'cause
Petra Vlasblom: you are there in
the, in 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock Yes.
You wanna be at home, but you are still
there on the stable with a horse that
doesn't want to load on the trailer.
Yes.
So it's a situation.
Nobody's happy.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Everyone is angry
about the horse because Yeah.
It's because of the
horse that you are there.
So, everyone is stressed and
there is a lot of disharmony.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: And when I come, I
I, I tell the owner with her husband
or friends or whatever, I tell,
okay, I understand you are stressed.
I understand this is not a nice situation.
I've been there many, many times.
So, it's very important that
I understand their feelings.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: So you can
get a little bit of you can
take it a little bit away by
Rupert Isaacson: some compassion.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
So it's very important to have compassion
and understanding for all the stress
and the disharmony and the fights that
the, that, that the owner is having with
her husband or children or whatever.
Right.
Okay.
Then, then there is a little bit more,
okay, I'm a little bit better feeling
and then I'm going to the horse.
And the horse is thinking,
okay, there's number 30.
Who's going to try to
get me into the trailer?
So the horse thinks, okay, Petra
is the same as everyone who's
trying this, this, this evening.
And she will get angry.
She will use pressure.
She will force me, and I'm
going to the, to the horse.
And I really tell the horse.
Okay.
I understand that you are angry
or that you are having fear
for the trailer or whatever.
Do you
Rupert Isaacson: say this
with your voice out loud?
Yes.
As if you were talking to a human?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So you
express the emotion.
Petra Vlasblom: I
Rupert Isaacson: always talk
Petra Vlasblom: to horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Always.
I think this is an important distinction.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Be because I don't know
for sure if the horse will understand
me or, or he, he will get it, but
when he, he is he is understanding me.
It's a way, it's stupid
that I don't say it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So
Petra Vlasblom: I always talk to horses
and I say, I will tell the horse, okay,
I, I understand that you are angry or
that you are don't trust anyone anymore.
But I'm not here to force you.
I'm not here to correct you in a way.
I'm here to help you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: I'm here to help you.
That's the only reason why I'm here.
I'm here to help you.
Okay.
And, and I work with a lot of
gentleness, a lot of love, a lot of.
Honesty to the horse.
And and the biggest problem with anyone
in that kind of situation is that they
want to have the horse into the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Petra Vlasblom: So if you,
like when you were, are with
a little child foy years old.
You, you go go to the like,
the swimming pool and you start
on the highest jumping, diving
Rupert Isaacson: board.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yes.
Diving, you start on the high
highest diving board and you
push the child for years old.
You push the child.
That's what we do with horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: We don't, we
don't start in the C child
Rupert Isaacson: room.
Indeed, indeed.
No, no.
We, we understand that there has
not been the correct preparation,
but you're there and you're saying
these nice things to the horses.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: But it's midnight.
The horse needs to go in the trailer.
What are you gonna do?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
I, I, I start with making
connection with the horse.
Yeah.
A little bit of groundwork.
Not groundwork.
You are working with my but
groundwork on a way that I'm that
I am clear about my personal space.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So that, talk us through
exactly what you do.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You, you
put a Holter on the horse.
You move him in a circle around you.
Petra Vlasblom: No, I, no, I, I
don't use like the joy of something.
No.
I only use rope and a halter.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: And rope.
Like, but
Rupert Isaacson: is the
horse moving his legs?
Petra Vlasblom: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Is he moving?
Petra Vlasblom: Only, only thing
I will ask the horse is when I I'm
turning the rope towards the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: I'm only
asking him to back up.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And when he does a little bit
of backup, only once centimeter
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: I stop
and I reward with my
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And when the horse
is realizing, oh, I only have to
back up a little bit and he respects
my personal space, then there is
something going to happen in the
relationship between me and the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And most of
the time the horse is getting a
little bit softer, a little bit.
Yeah.
More open to learn because
normally a horse like that
is not open to learn anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I have to make the
horse open to learn and to be okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you are
talking to him, you're touching him,
you back him up a little bit and then,
Petra Vlasblom: and then and
then I I'm going to the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: And when I do that,
I don't want to go into the trailer
immediately, Lee, but I start like, five
or six meters in front of the trailer.
Mm-hmm.
And I ask him one step forward
and I said, oh, beautiful.
Okay, go backwards again.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And I ask him a
little bit, oh, one step forward.
Oh, beautiful.
Go backwards again.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: Not because some
of the method, natural horsemanship
methods use the backup as a punishment.
I don't use it as a punishment.
So I re reward the horse
and I said, it's beautiful.
You can go backwards.
And what I'm doing with that
is I, I create a, a safe space.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I and, and
I I move the safe space, safe
space a little bit forward to
the, to the ramp of the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: So what I'm doing is I
make a very safe situation with the horse.
And when the horse trust me enough,
it's okay to go one step forward,
two steps backwards, three step
forwards, one step backwards, and
then we are going to like a yo-yo.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: In and out of the trailer.
And and constantly, constantly,
I make contact with the horse.
So it's very, very important that
there will be contact and I'm
talking to the horse all the time.
And then,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I've seen you work.
And by the way, for the people
watching and listening, one of the
reasons I was convinced about Petra
was she came to visit us and we have
a horse, it's not, doesn't belong to
us, but who lives on the property.
And we had not yet done much with it.
And it was a tricky horse to catch.
And we had in our minds said, you
know, we probably should get around
to doing a little more with this
horse, but we're kind of busy.
And Petra's there say, okay, Petra,
why don't you go and do your thing
with that horse, because it would
be really useful for us to watch.
And what I want to say to the people
listening to this or watching was
the way in which Petra used her
voice was so unmistakably, reassuring
and also unmistakably directed.
That horse that the horse
became very curious about.
Petra and Petra made friends with
the horse from a distance in a
way that was very clear as if
she was sort of an old friend.
Seeing that, seeing another
old friend from across the pub,
I'm like, Hey, how's it going?
You know?
But without trying to make that
person, pulling that person by
the arm to come over, and I was
watching, I thought, that's cool.
And so what happened was, of course the
horse became interested in Petra and
at a certain point approached Petra.
And then there was a very gradual
process of Petra reaching out or
letting the horse sniff, but not asking
the horse to be caught at all until
the horse basically caught itself.
And then Petra would then catch
the horse and let it go, and
catch the horse and let it go, and
put the Holter half on and then.
Take it off.
And, and the horse became so like,
well, are you gonna catch me then?
And Petra was like, well I dunno,
we're kind of hanging out, aren't we?
And constantly addressing
the horse by name, Eddie.
Ah, Eddie, you know, and the way
in which he said, Eddie, suddenly
I was like, I wanna be Eddie.
I want someone using my name like that.
And eventually the horse kind of
just shoves its nose into the Holter
and it's like, you are taking me.
And then you still took the Holter off
and said, well, I dunno, Eddie, I, I
dunno if that's really what you want.
And, and you did that over,
I want to say these things think
that you always think they're going
on for longer than they are, but I'd
say it was about 12 minutes perhaps.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I can tell you Petra,
that that horse is very easy to catch now.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It translated ever.
So I just want the listeners
to know that we are not talking
about some abstract here.
That there's a reason why
I wanted her on the show.
And we, and we're going to come in a
minute to her recommendations for your
staff, your people, your volunteers,
particularly your volunteers in
your therapeutic context to how
they can improve, massively improve
the situation with the horses.
Because we all know that one of the
real problems in the therapeutic
riding sphere is that most people
have to rely on volunteers.
And often there can end up
being negative dynamics between
the volunteers and the horses.
I have seen this so many times,
particularly in centers where
the horses are living in stables,
not outside, not in herds.
And they're bodily and emotional needs
and pains are not really being addressed.
They're just going round and round the
arena and their job is to be quiet.
And so they end up taking this
pain and frustration out on the
volunteers and the handlers.
They're often good with
the kids, but yeah.
So I think we all have seen, we
all know that this is chronic.
We all within the industry.
So, but let's go back to
this nighttime farm yard.
Okay.
So now you've moved yourself, your safe,
the horse's safe space towards, and
now perhaps to the ramp of the trailer.
Now what?
Petra Vlasblom: It's
the same as with Eddie.
Rupert because when I, when I put
on the halter and I'm finished,
he didn't learn anything.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: In the 12 minutes I work
with him I make like, I make it like
I make him curious what are you doing?
And I make it fun.
When I work with horses,
I will, will translate.
No no, not translate.
When I work with horses, I
want to have a horse that he
didn't want to go like Eddie.
He, he wanted, didn't want to
be catched, he didn't want to
halter on after 12 minutes.
He only wanted to be catched
and wanted to halter on.
And that's the same with with the trailer.
When I'm finished, the horse only
wants to get into the trailer.
He doesn't want the trailer out anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: So everyone will
be wondering, because we all have
our own experiences with this.
There's always that moment, you know,
when the, the, you're trailering a
difficult horse and you're like, okay,
this is the experience we're having.
I learned very early, don't resist it.
Rather say to yourself, this
is the experience we're having.
This is okay.
And if we are here for a long time,
well, we like being with horses,
so here we are with a horse.
And to try not to have a time
pressure, we must get home by this day.
Yeah.
But sometimes time pressures are
there even if you don't want them.
So we all know there's that golden
moment when the horse goes in.
Yeah.
And we're like, oh, thank God.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Close
Rupert Isaacson: the gate.
Yes.
Close the gate.
Get that ramp up.
For you, what's the pattern when
that golden moment normally happens?
Petra Vlasblom: I don't understand.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So you have a bit of a system.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So there's
probably a part of you by now
that can more or less predict?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Again,
Rupert Isaacson: when and
how it's going to happen.
Yeah.
Which I think would be very nice
for people to hear because maybe
they don't have this same experience
and therefore they don't have
the same confidence or faith.
Talk us through
when, okay.
There will be this little part
of you that says, I think in
about five minutes he'll go in.
Yeah.
What changes in the horse's
behavior to make you think,
ah, yeah, it's happening now.
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, I can see it.
So most of the time I can
see it on the on the, yeah.
It's, it's like, a mental
decision of the horse because the
horse refuses for a long time.
And then I, I know then if you.
If you look at the horse I can
see on the, on the eyes and
on the, the head of the horse.
And when, when I'm with students,
I always say, okay, look at this.
Look, look at the blinking of the eye.
Look at the ears.
Now he's thinking and he's
going to make a choice.
And most of the time he make the choice,
no, I'm not going into the trailer.
But within like a few minutes,
he will make a choice.
And, and yeah, if you, I have a
lot of video material, Rupert.
And once, once we met each other, you
said, what are you doing different?
And I said, yeah, you don't have to.
You, you shouldn't listen to my to what
I'm saying, but you should should see.
Yeah.
But
Rupert Isaacson: we are talking, so
Petra Vlasblom: frankly
Rupert Isaacson: you
have to say something.
Petra Vlasblom: May maybe it's possible
to, for the listeners to, to, to show
some videos later on or, or on the social
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But you can describe you, you have,
you can describe the experience.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's possible to see when a
horse is thinking about, okay, I,
am I doing it or am I doing it?
Not, and when he says, when the horse
decides I'm, I'm not doing it, it's clear.
But you can see when, when the horse is on
a cho moment, moment of moment of choice.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And that's the,
the, the most interesting part.
And what is very important when the
horse is in depth part of the training.
You don't force him, you don't ask him.
He has to make the, his own choice.
Choice.
Rupert Isaacson: Here is a question
at that point where he makes
the choice to go in the trailer.
Do you close the door?
Or do you say, actually, let's
go out of the trailer again?
Petra Vlasblom: Yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And then
the owner, he, he gets mad.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Do you tell the owner in advance
Yeah, this is what I'm going to do.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Otherwise, so
Petra Vlasblom: then
Rupert Isaacson: you,
Petra Vlasblom: otherwise,
otherwise I'm not helping.
Yes.
Because then I, then I am yeah.
Then I, I'm not honest to the horse.
Sure.
Because the horse is not ready
yet for closing the ramp.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you arrive,
when they say, Hey, Petra, will you
come, do you say on the phone, listen,
when this horse goes in the first time,
I will actually take him out again.
Are you okay with that?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Or they say, no, I'm not
okay with that because I need to get home.
Yeah.
To look after my sick mother or something.
But in general, you inform the
owner it's going to be like this.
Okay.
So then the horse goes in the trailer
the first time and then you surprise him.
You say, okay, you can go out now again.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
But to be honest Rupert, I'm some
horses some horses, they they
have, they need time to think about
and to make the right decision.
Mm-hmm.
So the, the, the, the, the training
is, is taking a little bit more
time and it's, it's depending
on the character of the horse.
Yeah.
Because I, I look at the character
of the horse to see what kind
of training methods he needs.
Right.
Because some horses I will close it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: But not the angry ones.
Not the the sensible ones.
Because they will, they
will kick, they will out.
Sensible,
Rupert Isaacson: sensitive.
Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
They will come out the trailer.
They, they, that, that is very
dangerous because, because they
can get an accident because
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: They are in panic.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: But there are
characters that says, okay, this
is like a no nonsense character.
And
Right.
Petra Vlasblom: Horse says, I, yeah.
I'm not afraid, I'm not angry, but I
don't, don't want to go into the trailer.
Right.
So the more easier characters
that's, that's okay to close it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
So now you're dealing with a horse.
They're not the easy character,
but they've gone in the first time.
Yeah.
Then you take them out
again straight away.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Reward.
Lucky won Olympics.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Reward.
But very, very good.
I'm so proud of you.
And now we are going for a second time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And what you
can do once, you can do twice.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And it's, it's for me as
a trainer, but it's also for the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: And
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Normally.
Do you have more or less of a pattern
of the number of times, more or less,
that you might take the horse outta
the trailer again, in that situation?
Is it
Petra Vlasblom: Oh yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: More or
less, five more or less?
10.
Petra Vlasblom: No, in, in a situation
when somebody wants to go home and
there's, but for me it's more important
not the the counting of the, of the times.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But there, nonetheless, there
are patterns that emerge.
Petra Vlasblom: For me it's more or less,
Rupert Isaacson: is it more than 500?
Is it less than three?
No,
Petra Vlasblom: five.
Between five and 10, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
That's rational.
Petra Vlasblom: But for me it's important
that the horse he's making the choice to
get in because a horse that is making the
choice, the choice itself to get into the
trailer, will not have resistance when
you are, are riding with the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: And the horse
that is forced is always angry
scared sensible and mm-hmm.
And that can be di dangerous.
Rupert Isaacson: It can
Petra Vlasblom: absolutely.
Horses came out of the roof.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Because they
are forced and they are and
they close the, the trailer.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting to me.
I was working with a horse today.
That at a, at a different place.
Who decided he did not
want to go into the arena?
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, no.
Rupert Isaacson: And I said, it's not a
problem, let's do our work outside here.
But I think probably at a certain
point he will probably go in.
But it's really okay with me with
what we're going to do now because
honestly, I can do it right here.
And you know, the work that we usually
do, these old circular dressage patterns
on the ground, not on the horse.
So, and they do some interesting
neurological change in the horse's brain.
We know this.
And it was the second time
with the horse and he, he was
actually, he's a very nice horse.
And, but he was just saying, okay,
I'm big and I'm not gonna do it.
So I just said, that's fine.
Let's just do our thing here.
And then he is like, oh, well
then I'm going to, you know.
Be bossy to you about.
I said, well, that's okay.
You can be bossy to me, but can
you just be bossy to me, around
me in this pattern, please?
And oh, good boy, just like you.
And then lots of, you know,
love lots of hugs and dah dah.
And, you know, we do some patterns and we
do some patterns and we do some patterns.
And then I said, do you want to go in?
No, he doesn't want to go.
I, okay, well no problem.
We can do the workout here.
It doesn't matter.
We can, you know, da da, da.
And then perhaps after the, it
was I think after I would say 20
minutes and I'd actually forgotten
that I really particularly even
wanted to go into the arena.
And then I saw the door, I said,
oh, let's just give it a try.
And of course, he walked in.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I, I find that
it's often that giving up of attachment.
When I'm starting to train a
horse in anything, I have this
little thing I say to myself, I
say, oh, it'll take two years.
It will probably take about three weeks.
But if I say to myself, it's a
little trick in my brain, if I
say to myself, ah, it'll take two
years, then something in me relaxes.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm
like, ah, you know, it's okay.
And I know that even though
it's a trick on myself.
Something in my body language
changes, something in my emotional
frequency changes and the horse
picks up on it and relaxes.
And then ironically it goes faster.
But I still have to tell myself this.
I have another trick I do when I'm
jumping and I'll come into a fence and
I'm feeling a little bit scared or I
can't really quite see the good place
to jump to take off, but I'm committed.
I start looking at the sky and I say,
oh, I wonder what kind of cloud that is.
What weather system is that?
Or what kind of bird?
Oh, that's, oh, that's a sparrow hook.
Oh, that's interesting.
And the fence comes to me
and then, oh, we're okay.
And I know intellectually that I am
tricking myself, but it works because
my attention goes away from the problem.
I suppose.
I, I stopped feeding the problem
with my attention and the problem
often tends to resolve itself.
And I think I wondered where this came
from because I was not always like this.
And I realized it was with autism that
I realized that with all, you know,
particularly the nonverbal younger
kids, you cannot have any attachment.
And initially in the
early days of horse boy.
Because we had been, you know, because
there had been success with my son,
naturally people and, and me hoped
for the same success with others.
And most of the time it was there,
but it was there mostly when I said
to the parent, usually, I honestly
don't know if we can get anywhere
here, but what we can do is have a
very nice time together that we can do.
And sure we know that.
We now know the neuroscience
and, okay, okay, okay, but
that's still not a guarantee.
Are you okay with that?
And then the parents saying to me,
that's why I asked you, do you say to
the horse owner before you go, are you
okay with the fact that A, the horse may
not go in and b, if he goes in, I will
take him out again at least a few times
probably, because this will be better.
Yeah.
And then the, the owner, the
horse owner has some choice.
They have, yeah.
At some agency they have a participation.
They're not just waiting for you to
do your thing, solve the problem.
And then we're working
together with partners.
Okay, so here's my third question before
we go into the therapeutic context.
Sometimes, occasionally the horse,
I'm sure does not go into the trailer.
So when you walk into that yard at
midnight, I presume you have a plan
in your mind for what is plan C if
the horse doesn't go in at all, like,
and we need the horse to stay here for
the night and we need to make a plan.
And then what do we do?
Do we leave him with the trailer?
Do we take the trailer away and home?
Do we keep the trailer?
Do we make a little field for him, you
know, with an electric fence, which
includes the trailer with the ramp down.
Do we feed him there in the morning?
What do we do?
So has that happened?
And if so, what did you do?
What was the plan?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it, it did happen.
Not, not so much.
I maybe in all those years, once or twice,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: The horse.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But there's
always that exception, right?
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: of course, of
Rupert Isaacson: course.
So what did you do in that exception?
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Petra Vlasblom: In, in one of
the two I, the, the horse went
into the stable because there
were only stables over there.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I went the
other day and to, to load him, and
then we had a little bit more time.
There was no stress.
It wasn't dark, so it was much easier.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I think, yeah.
And, and, and, and you left
the trailer there, or the
trailer went away and came back?
Petra Vlasblom: I don't know.
I thought it was I, I don't know.
I, I think we left it there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Intuitively it would
seem to me a good idea to leave it there.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But yeah, what do I know?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so the
reason I wanted to ask that question
is because I always want to ask myself
before I work with a horse or before
I work with a person, what's my plan
going to be if I'm not successful?
Because if I'm attached to success,
we all know that's not a good thing
and success might take a short time
or it might take a very long time.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it could be that the
success actually does not happen with me.
It could be that I am simply a part
of the journey and somebody else is
going to have the breakthrough moment.
You know?
So I have to ask myself,
am I okay with this?
Particularly when I'm working with a
human, because I am emotionally attached.
I'm more emotionally attached with
a human than I am with a horse.
With a horse.
If I know, probably at some point it will
work because people have been training
horses for since the late stone age.
And you know, most of the
time it sort of happens.
But when it's somebody's child, it's,
it's, it's a, it's a very different thing.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And
and humans are tricky.
So, in a funny way, I guess what I'm
saying is I have to let myself off
the hook and tell myself, this isn't
some contest to show that my method
works or that I am a good practitioner.
It's really okay if I'm just some
small part of this child's journey
or this person's journey, but I
want to be a positive part of that.
So at the very least,
what do I need to do?
So for me, I will engage in
curiosity, what does this person love?
And can I engage in that activity somehow?
Even if, for example, it's a computer
game, we can't go into the computer,
but I can print the characters from
the computer and laminate them and
hang them in the trees and walk
underneath them and talk about them.
I can do that.
You know, I can find a way to engage.
And if I can find something that
the horse likes, I can go with this.
Alright, so now let's move it
to the therapeutic context.
So let's say I was running a therapeutic
horse business and conflicts were arising
between some volunteers and the horses.
And these volunteers perhaps don't
have so much horse experience, or
they actually have a lot of horse
experience, but it's still going wrong.
And maybe there is one person who has
a lot of horse experience and they are
just being too controlling, too bossy.
And maybe there's somebody with no horse
experience and they're being too passive
or the other way around.
I need to come.
I'm Petra.
I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't,
I, I don't want to insult you by saying
you look like me, but I'm now inside
Petra and so I'm going, I'm Petra.
I go to this place and I realize
that I have a complex situation in
front of me because I have these
differing human personalities.
Some of them actually know quite a lot
about horses, but there's still a problem.
Others don't know so
much about the horses.
There's a problem, but
perhaps they're more open.
But I must serve all of these people,
and I have one day to do it because
the barn owner ha it's a nonprofit.
They can only afford me
to come in for one day.
Or you're doing it on a scholarship,
but you can't give too many.
So you're, you're going in for
a day, maybe on your own time.
Talk us through that day.
Petra Vlasblom: Okay.
I think it's, it's the same as training
horses because it's all about motivating
and stimulating for the wanted behavior.
So I think you have to find a way
how to stimulate and motivate all,
all the, all the all the people.
So, and I think that the, the one
who it's like, like training horses.
The one who is having the, who's like the
leader of the group, the most experienced.
I think the, it's, it's important
to, to show her that you are
listening to to her or him or her.
Is it a woman or a man?
Rupert Isaacson: Good question.
It's probably more likely to
be a woman just because it's
98% female driven the industry.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
So it's very important that you, you
will see her as, as the leader because
she's, she's probably the toughest one
to train or to motivate or to stimulate.
So, but, and, and then you, you can,
when she, she's like, when you have a
better connection a better understanding,
then you can get the rest of the group.
But I think it's, it's always important.
The, the one who's the most resistant
in the group is the one who has
the power to, to change the energy
and to change the environment.
So, I always, because I, I do the same.
I, I, I have, I have schooling,
I have very experienced students,
and I also have like, students
who, who write on a writing school.
And that's a major difference.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is.
Petra Vlasblom: But for
me, there's no difference.
They are equal for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
When you need to win the confidence of
the dominant one, how do you do that?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
I, I try to show that, okay, I will,
listening to you, I see you, I understand
you, but you are not the only one.
We have to do it with the whole group.
So we are looking for a way that's good
for everyone because we need each other.
It's like a herd.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: we know each other.
So if you are not satisfied with this
position, we, you are not satisfied.
We need each other.
So we need each other, and we
all have our, our own task.
And we work, we have to work together.
Rupert Isaacson: So would you do any
specific exercises with these people?
Petra Vlasblom: Oh
yeah.
Maybe.
I, I,
I don't know.
I,
Rupert Isaacson: well, let me,
let me give you, perhaps it's
better if I give you a situation.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So let's say it's a standard therapeutic
riding place where they are leading
children on horses, and the horses
are starting to bite the handlers.
Petra Vlasblom: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: this is a
normal thing in many places.
You are there for the day.
What are you doing?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Okay.
And the horses are starting to bite.
Rupert Isaacson: The handlers,
the leaders, not the kids.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Then it's important to to, to get
clear why are the horses biting
and are they biting everyone
or just a, a, a certain person?
So, I would, I would,
would have, have more.
I, I would like to have more
information about which horses buys.
Do they bite everyone?
Do they bite only one or two or three
of the people who's working there?
So, yeah, and, and maybe
Rupert Isaacson: let's say
they bite only two or three.
Petra Vlasblom: Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then you can, you couldn't have who?
Look at, okay, those two or three, are
they not clear enough to the horse?
Are they insecure?
Are they doing something
that is knowing the horse?
It's, it's all possible,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
But
Petra Vlasblom: it's like a puzzle,
Rupert Isaacson: let's say.
Then you, you look at that and you realize
it's all three of those things
that they are not clear.
They are annoying the horse, but perhaps
they don't know they're annoying.
The horse.
And I forget what the first
one was that you said.
But perhaps let's just
go with those two things.
They're annoying the horse
and they're not clear.
Yeah.
So now what?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Now may maybe and not, and it's
separate then from the the work
with the children on, on the horses.
But then I, I should give them
like a, a learning lesson about
body language and be clear to horse
because maybe they are not clear.
They are insecure and the
horse is like doesn't get the
leading that he wants to have.
Okay.
And so then you can change the
relationship between the human and
the horse, and you can get the people
more secure about what they could
do when the horse is going to bite.
Because if you don't know is
if nobody tells you what to do,
then you are standing there and
you, you get bitten all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
What would you tell them to do?
Petra Vlasblom: I, I should tell
them to to work on on their.
On their body language.
Like, when you are insecure,
you, you are mostly, like, your
shoulders are a little bit lower.
You are not standing
standing up, up upright.
So I, I would give them some
lessons about body, body language
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And also about
being clear to the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And maybe make a
little bit more contact with the horse
before they're going to work together.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: Because maybe they, the
horse is settled, there's and they're
standing there, there's going a, a child
on the horse and there's no, no connection
between the horse and the leader.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Maybe,
Petra Vlasblom: maybe
Rupert Isaacson: that's
Petra Vlasblom: something to work with.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
And I think people do
get put in this position.
Now, let's say it's not necessarily
something that the handler is doing, but
let's say the horse is sour because it's
not living in a way that is good for
its mental health or emotional health.
So let's say we, I often see this
situation, the horse is stable
too long, not getting enough time
outside, not getting enough time
with friends despite the fact that.
So many podcasts like this talk about,
oh, horses need the three F's, friends,
forage and freedom or whatever.
We all know that this is not actually
what you see most of the time.
And horses that are standing in
stables a lot also, particularly
if they're older, often are stiff.
They're often have some
pain just like we would.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then there's mental
and emotional stress that comes from
just not being in the right environment.
It's very difficult to
tell a stable owner this.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But
if that is the root of the problem and
we can see that there is a, a pattern
in the stable because the horse is
just not happy physically, mentally,
how do you deal with that situation?
Because this is, that's a difficult one,
because you're dealing, you've got to try,
be sensitive to the economic situation.
These people will say,
well, we haven't got space.
We can't afford space.
We have to have the horses do
many, many sessions because.
This is how the money comes in.
You know, all of these
reasons will be put forward.
It's more convenient to have the horse
there and the stable, because he's clean.
I can catch him.
He's not covered in mud
et cetera, et cetera.
But you can see Petra goes in.
Yeah.
But listen, we have to make a
change here if we want a change
in the behavior of the horses.
How do you handle this?
Because it's, this is tricky.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is.
It is.
But it's always in my job
because sometimes the situation
for the horse is not the best.
Mm-hmm.
And I cannot change all the,
all the owners of the horses.
And you cannot you cannot decide where
because maybe they don't have the
money, they don't have the possibility.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And, and one can't just
point out a problem.
I always feel that if you're
going to identify a problem,
you do have to offer a solution.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's the same.
Sometimes I see a horse that has
to go into the trailer, like a
horse that is like, one meter 75.
Mm-hmm.
And he's go, he, they have trailer,
the all the ones, they are two 20 high.
Mm-hmm.
And then there's no space for
the, for the, for the neck
and for the, for the Hess.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And then the owner
says, yes, but my o my my o other
horse is, is even a little bit bigger.
There's no problem at all.
And I cannot decide for the, for
the owner of the horse, Hey, you
have to buy an, a big trailer.
But I can say it and I can
say, you are paying me.
You are spending a lot of money time
and energy to, to teach your horse
to get to, in, into the trailer.
But if you using this trailer,
the problem will return.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And then
it's a waste of money.
Then you better sell this trailer
and you have money to hire a trailer
that is a little bit be if you don't
have the money to, to to to buy a new
one, you, you have money to rent it.
But you can, you can you
can share some ideas.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly.
I think this is what it comes down to.
You know, so when I find that I'm in
a place where the living conditions
of the horse are not ideal, then
usually I start looking for solutions.
And as you know, one of my
first solutions is always what
we call crazy time in my Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Sys,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, and all
that means is playing in an arena,
hopefully more than one horse maybe
up to four horses, if you have
the space, a really big arena.
It can be more, but it's
usually four is about the max.
And often that involves free jumping, but
it doesn't have to and not all horses can.
So, but it involves going through
obstacles on the ground without a
handler playing and interacting with
each other and letting off steam.
And we find that horses that are
not able to have so much outside
time together benefit from what
we call crazy time immediately.
And then I realize, yeah, I have to offer.
The owner an economic solution as well.
So I say, okay.
And I did this in our own when we were
keeping our horses in a stable in Germany
for a few years, which was not ideal.
This is where crazy time really saved us.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then I
realized that the kids that
were coming out, they loved it.
So they would help us do the crazy time
and then we could say, okay, look, the
side of the arena, the long side, this
is 60 meters or 50 meters or whatever.
Let's check though.
So now we walk it.
Okay, how many steps did you get?
How many steps did you get?
Okay.
Okay.
And how long did it take?
Oh, we didn't time it.
Okay, let's time Petra.
Okay.
How long does it take for
Petra to get down the arena?
Oh, maybe Petra can go a little faster.
Come on Petra.
And this is before we even
bring the horses in, right?
And then we say, okay, how fast is Petra?
Oh, I don't know.
But it took her five seconds,
10 seconds to go from one end
of the 50 meters to the other.
Here look, we get the cell phone out.
We can do distance over time.
That speed.
We can work out Petra speed.
Now let's do the dog Now.
Hold on.
We can build these jumps for the horses.
Now we have some team building or,
but we can measure how high are they?
How heavy are they, what is the distance?
So there's some little bits of
math coming in there as well.
And then we make them jump small
so Petra can go over Is Petra
slower or faster over the jumps?
Now we send the kid that, then
everyone's done some maths there, had
a fun, they've laughed at each other.
Then we bring in the horses
and we do the same thing.
And then we're starting
to learn horsemanship.
And so, and then I'd say, look, maybe this
is a school group and maybe that school
group is paying you 300 euros to be there.
You just met the needs of the horses and
the needs of the kids at the same time.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So there's no
financial loss or pressure or stress
to give the horses what they need.
So now we can't say this is impossible.
Petra Vlasblom: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And maybe we can do
five sessions of crazy time in a day.
And sometimes the horses are full of
energy and sometimes less, but they're
going to interact with each other and
have curiosity and problems to solve.
And there's one solution there.
Can we do this?
But it took me a while to train myself
to think in terms of these solutions.
And I think it wasn't until.
I was in the same position as,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that person that I could
put myself in their shoes when I was
living in Texas while we had a ranch.
You know?
So, and when I go and give talks
at horse equine events, sometimes
I will hear people talking in a
way that is making people feel
ashamed because they don't have the
state of Wyoming as their backyard.
But the fact is, most
people don't, you know?
So what are we gonna
do for those solutions?
So, I presume you have to think
in these terms as well, right?
Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us some
examples of, of creative solutions
you've come up with for people?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
It's like, like the trailer or sometimes
yeah.
In, in, most of the time sport
horses don't have play crazy times
with other horses because they
are very scared for injuries.
Mm-hmm.
And that's so yeah.
That's a pity because yeah, a horse
wants to have wants to have social
contact with the other horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Which often involves kicking each other.
It just does it, it's how horses are.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what do
you do in this situation?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I, yeah.
I always say that it, it should be better
to give them some time together and but I
see it, there, there is, is a difference
because 20 years ago they were all stable.
And I see now that much more
people do have eDocs or meadows.
Hmm.
But in, in, in sports, you can see a lot
of horses that are on their own, on the
meadow or, or in the paddock, and they
can socialize over the over the fences.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
But I, I really hope that and, and
I see a lot of sports stables with
little Shetland ponies, so they can
play with the sheron pony and Okay.
When they are injured by a
Shetland pony, it's not so.
Worse than it's not so, yeah.
Dangerous for their,
Rupert Isaacson: and they can't kick
the Shetland pony 'cause the Shetland
Pony's too quick like a terrier.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: They can,
can get under the line.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, but there,
I think that's actually a really
good concrete example of a solution.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, so when I'm
wearing my dressage hat, you know, I'm
also with people who have very expensive
horses and they say, yes Rupert, we can't
put them out together because if they
injure the horse, it's so expensive.
Or, you know, and whether you
agree or disagree that any
horse should have a price.
Nonetheless, this is the reality.
So for example, that solution
get a mini, get a Shetland.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Put it in there with him.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And it's also a horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Maybe get three Shetlands and
then you've got one sport horse.
Crazy timing with three Shetlands going
out in the paddock with three Shetlands.
Maybe that's your solution right there.
Yeah.
Plus they're easy to keep.
They're not expensive to feed.
Yeah.
I think it's just really important to
have these, it, you might think, oh,
that's such a simple thing to say,
but for many people who are facing
these questions, it's not obvious.
And sometimes a Petra coming
along and saying, you know.
Get three Shetlands and the jobs of these
Shetlands is to make these other horses
move a little bit and give them company.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's something that somebody
could think, yeah, I could do that.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah.
So, yeah, sometimes it's just be creative.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And, and problem solving is, is it,
it's necessary that you are creative
because you can have a plan, but if
the plan isn't working well, you,
you, you, you used to try other parts.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
It's, it's an interesting one because
you know, this, I come across this, and I
probably honestly do this myself in other
situations where I know I have a problem,
but I don't really wanna make a change.
So I will say to somebody, I have this
problem and I wanna make a change.
And then the person says to me, oh,
well, Rupert, you could do this.
And, and I'm like, no, can't do that.
No, can't do that, can't do that.
You know, and then the other person
is saying, well, but then why
are we having this conversation?
Why did you engage me?
Did you just engage me to vent your
frustration and get more frustration?
Or do you genuinely want.
To change something, but you and I
both know, or they could say this to
me, Rupert, you know, that you would
not really like to still be having
this conversation in one year's time.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So
something needs to change.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So if not these three
things that we put forward, what?
I don't know.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe
I can't do anything.
Maybe this is just the way it has to be.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
When, when I work with horses
and owners of horses, they all,
they both have behavior pattern.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: So the horse
has a pattern how to react.
And the owner also has a pattern, the
Rupert Isaacson: devil, you know?
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And they are it, it's, it's
their way of interaction.
And when I'm working with a horse I,
I always say it like on an easy way to
the owner, okay, this is your horse.
I'm going to ins the, the software on your
horse is not the right software anymore.
He doesn't want to go
to, what do you call it?
The, the, the trailer?
Yeah.
So you installed the wrong software.
No problem.
I'm here.
I'm going to install the right software.
So he, after I I'm finished, he will get
into the trailer with a loose rope on
his own own choice, no problem anymore.
So I will install new software, but
I have to teach you a little bit
about the new software because if
you don't change, if you don't work
the same way like I'm working, you
are going to load him next time.
And you are going to use the old software.
So the brain will, will use the, the,
the the old parts to the nerve system.
So you are get the old
Rupert Isaacson: result
Petra Vlasblom: beha.
Yeah.
Old result and the old behavior paradigm.
Yeah.
So if you want to solve it
for a longer time, I have to
install software on your horse.
So I may create new bar parts, but I
also have to to show you and to teach
you how to work with the new software.
And I will create new parts.
Parts on you.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the only way how it will work.
Yeah.
And if
Rupert Isaacson: the
Petra Vlasblom: owner when
I started my work, I, I, I
didn't, I only trained horses.
And then I get to a situation that it
was 11 o'clock in the evening and they
said, Hey, I'm on a competition field
and, and my horse doesn't load anymore.
And I started my car, went to the
competition field, and then I was in the
car on my way back and I thought, Hmm,
this is not right, because when I only
train the horses the problem returns.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And then I said to all
the, all the owners of the horses, if
you want me to train your horse, you
have to come one evening to my, my
company and I will organize one evening.
It takes three hours about horse
behavior and about how to install
new software on your horse.
And the one who says, oh, no,
I'm not going to your place.
I have to drive for two hours.
When they said, no, I don't, don't do it.
I said, I will not come to
your horse and to train it.
So you have to search
for, for another trainer.
And I was, so, after I organized
the evenings and they, they
visit the evenings, I was much
more successful in my work.
'cause I trained the horse, I trained
the owner, and then there was new
relationship and there was new software.
And the owners knew
how to handle the horse
Rupert Isaacson: and
Petra Vlasblom: how to
work with the new software.
And only that was for me,
the way to work successful.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
we have something rather similar.
You know, we have three programs that are
therapeutic horse boy method, movement
method, and tacking Horse Boy Method.
You're riding with a child,
tacking, it's how you train the
horse from the ground as a therapy.
But movement method, no horses.
And what I, I'm exactly the same
I'll say to usually a family, Hey
listen, I will work with you or
your kid for a about six weeks.
In that six weeks I do need
you to do a parent introductory
course for movement method.
I will make it as cheap as I
can, but if you are not doing
this at home, then honestly
anything that good that happens at
our place may not generalize over.
And because I'm a parent
of an autistic child, I am.
I want you and I want your
child to have success.
And I know that the only way this
will happen really is if you have a
culture at home of moving in these
ways that create the neuroplasticity.
And I know that people are overwhelmed,
particularly the special needs parents.
So that's why I say I give it six
weeks, somewhere in that sec, six
weeks, can you find one evening?
If they can't, we'll go six more weeks.
And if they can't find an evening, then I
can't continue because I have to then say,
look, I need to make that space available
for a family that will follow through.
But sometimes what I found when I started
doing that was, interestingly, some
people went away and said, well, f you.
But then quite often they, maybe
24 months later, they come back.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and say,
okay, actually now we're ready.
We just weren't ready then.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: You
Rupert Isaacson: know?
Do you find the same thing with Yeah,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah.
Sometimes I had professional trainers
and they they didn't like to be in, in
an evening together with like, people
who was riding on a horse riding school.
Yeah.
And so they were professionals.
And so I had once I had a
breeder in in in the class.
And and he said to everyone, oh, I don't
believe she's she's getting my horse
into the trailer because there are so
many people tried it and strong man.
And she's a, she's a little woman.
So how, how, I don't believe it.
And if she does it I will eat my broom.
Yeah.
And I think he's still eating.
It
Rupert Isaacson: takes a
Petra Vlasblom: while to chop to, and
it's so nice because he, he was, he had
a lot of resistance because he thought,
what does she, what, what can she do?
What my man or my the people
who are working for me can do?
Mm-hmm.
And after that he, he's the one who,
who who, who sends me the most clients.
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Because they see it's not strange, it's
not spiritual, it's, it's just horse
training on a very smart, smart way.
And what is so funny is maybe you had the
same experience when you saw me training
Eddie, is that people always tell me,
you are doing exactly the opposite as.
Everyone is doing, but it's so logical.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I says, yes,
it's logical what I'm doing.
It is,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
It's, it's actually very similar to
working with the nonverbal population.
What I generally will say to people
is, everything you would do with a
neurotypical child, turn it upside down.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if you do
that, you are probably, so for
example, if you're trying to direct
stop directing and follow Yeah.
That's the opposite.
And Right.
Yeah.
Petra Vlasblom: And that's what I always
say to my students, think the opposite.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: Exactly The opposite.
What you are supposed to do normally.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
It's funny though.
It's funny how people,
Petra Vlasblom: it is funny.
Rupert Isaacson: Don't always get it.
Petra Vlasblom: Because,
because we are working the same
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Petra Vlasblom: We are working.
And, and that's what I, what I
realized when I, when we met the first
time, what you are doing with human,
with humans, I'm doing with horses.
Mm-hmm.
And we do exactly the same thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And, and
we have the same approach.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: It's so funny.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, and it's interesting, back to a
decision from the heart is not always
the right decision if it's in isolation.
From the brain or the gut.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But if it is in
alignment with the brain and the gut,
then it's always the right decision.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I think one of
the good things about decisions from the
heart is because the heart has no ego.
The heart can be broken, the
heart can be hurt, but the heart
doesn't really have an ego.
So the heart can accept
failure oddly enough.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then the
brain can rationalize failure and
say, well, maybe this is just the
first try or the hundredth try,
but we will get there in the end.
And then the gut has to
say yes or no, really.
Like, are we actually
pissing in the wind here?
Or will the hundredth try work?
So I think the process that you've
described is so interesting because
20 years ago when the natural
horsemanship world was really taking
on, you heard so much of people
saying, well, just love is enough.
Just love the horse.
Just exactly all the things you said.
And we saw a lot of
people not have success.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because yeah.
It's true.
It wasn't enough by itself.
It needed these other components.
It was a good start, but it
needed these other components.
And then
it never occurred to me perhaps a
bit because of my sort of Southern
African upbringing that other people
had difficulty recognizing intuition
because I come from a family that
values that.
So that was always a part.
So then I read, oh, I see.
Yes, other people don't.
And people would say to me, how do
you get in touch with your intuition?
Don't know.
You just feels like a
feeling in your gut, I guess.
I don't know.
And then realizing, oh, I see.
If you don't have that, you have
no choice but to either make an
isolated head or heart decision.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So how
do you get into intuition?
And what I found with that was there
is only actually one way, and that
is to spend a lot of time in nature.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that if one does
that, it actually takes care of itself.
In a funny way.
You start to listen with your body
to wind trees, weather.
Horse people are good at this
because we know the weather will
affect the mood of the horse.
We know
things, all the things
in nature will affect.
So horse people have a
better understanding of this.
But of course, the horse
people have changed.
And when I was a boy, many
farmers were horse people.
Now it has changed.
There are still farmers
who are horse people.
Yes.
But it's predominantly now a
sport that is done by people
who live in suburbs of the city.
So, and their horses
are living in stables.
So they're not spending maybe
that time in nature, which is also
just the time with the horses.
And then I realized, oh, oh, oh, okay.
So what you really need to do to
be a good dressage rider or to be a
good therapy artist, you just need to
spend a lot of time with your horses.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: You just need to
literally hang out and include them in
things and do your chores with that.
So I started with my working
students, having them do chores
with a horse on the end of a rope.
Like, can you push the wheelbarrow
and lead the horse at the same time?
Not because it's a skill, but
just because you and the horse
will need to figure it out.
And that will get you an interesting
relationship with this horse.
Maybe the wheelbarrow tips over, if it
does, I will not be angry, but try so
when you've, as we sort of
approach the two hour mark,
we, we need to wrap this up.
And I think we've gotten to some
really interesting solutions here.
Whether it's a therapeutic barn or a sport
barn, when people do not seem to have
the time to really create that kind of
relationship that provides the intuition,
you need to give them a solution
and they will say, I have no time.
What's your solution?
How to create time from no time.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Yeah, what, what I see a lot is
that people are not only struggling
with their relationship or their
connection with their horse, but with
the co connection with their self.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: And I think that is.
One of the biggest problems nowadays.
Mm-hmm.
Because there are a lot of people that
are only interested in social media,
not telephones a lot of time spending.
And people are spending a lot
of time not with horses or not
with nature, but a lot of time.
Yeah.
And, and they get, they don't, don't,
they don't get the connection to
their self, but they are outside.
They shut down.
They, they are like frozen.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that is a, is a is yeah.
It's becoming a big problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: If you are not
connected with yourself yeah.
How, how do you want to connect with a,
with another person or with your horse?
Rupert Isaacson: So what
do you tell them to do?
Go take ayahuasca.
What?
Petra Vlasblom: I never did it.
You did?
So you can tell them.
But I don't,
Rupert Isaacson: I actually,
no, I haven't done it.
That's 1, 1, 1 thing I haven't done.
No, you didn't.
Petra Vlasblom: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: probably.
Yeah.
No, I probably will at some
point, but just, I've never
been in South America, so Yeah.
No.
Well, I have but not there.
Yeah.
No,
Rupert Isaacson: no.
But you know, sometimes one has to
give a solution and say, okay guys,
do this thing, just do this one thing.
So when you say, okay, they're
often the, the problem might
be disconnection from self.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Then what might be
a solution you, you would propose
for somebody who has no time?
Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, when
I'm, when I'm I'm on a stable to train
horses with behavior problems the owner
is not, expecting me to say something
about self-development or, yeah.
Being out of connection
with, with yourself.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Petra Vlasblom: When I have the students,
I know the students because they are
with me for one, two or three years.
Yeah.
So I know them very well.
And we have also the the modules for
self-development, so I can really
help them to develop the themselves.
But it's, it's, it's, it's not something
I will do at a horse training because
sometimes when I feel somebody's
open for it, I will, I will give a
suggestion, but not standard because Yeah.
Most of the people are closing
the, the fences immediately.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
There's something I
sometimes say, which is,
if it's to someone doing the therapeutic
stuff, I might say, you are asking
this person to make a big change.
You want this child to go from not
speaking to speaking, or you want
this person to go from suffering
through trauma to somehow resilience.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Or if it's with a
horse, you know, you want this horse
to go in a trailer or you want this
horse to jump this fence or you want
this horse to do a pf for the horse.
This is a big thing.
It's a big change.
What big change are you
making in your life?
Petra Vlasblom: Oh, that's
Rupert Isaacson: beautiful because if
you are not making a big change what
tools have you got to show this horse
or this person how to make a change?
And if you are saying, well I don't need
to make a change, this horse needs to
make a change or I don't need to make
a change, this person needs to make a
change, that is inevitably conflict.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the solution I'll
often give is this change does not
have to be a difficult traumatic change
like giving up smoking or something.
What about learning some Spanish or what
about reading a very different kind of
book to what you would normally read?
Or what about something that is relatively
easy to do but is radically different
from what you would normally do?
And even that you are going to resist
because it's not natural, but it will give
you empathy and it will give you tools.
Petra Vlasblom: Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because you
have to get yourself to that.
Even if you're just doing Duolingo
Spanish or something, you still
have to make yourself do it
and, and you probably won't.
But then when the horse is resisting
or the child is not responding as you
wish, you can check in with yourself
and say, yeah, but is that me?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And if so,
if I don't begin to make those changes,
how can I show somebody else how to do it?
And it's interesting
that one can resonate.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But the
problem with saying that is
then I have to do it myself.
And that is very annoying.
Says Rupert reaching for
his Lingo app, you know.
Well, Petra, listen, it's been fantastic.
I want listeners and viewers, we
are doing this in the end of March,
2026, and in June, I believe 2026.
If you're watching this soon.
Petra and I are going to do a
thing together in the Netherlands.
And I will sort of do my in hand
classical stuff mixed with Neurosciencey.
Per people stuff and
Petra's gonna do her stuff.
And I invite you to come
Petra Vlasblom: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: At a place in
the Netherlands to be decided.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
I have a very nice place.
Rupert is nearby the border of Germany, so
Rupert Isaacson: very good.
Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Maybe it's also
interesting for the Germany.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
How far up or down the border, what's the
closest town on the, on the Netherlands
Petra Vlasblom: and today?
Rupert Isaacson: Is it aum?
Petra Vlasblom: Aum?
No, not Aum.
I think
it's, it's not my area.
Rupert.
So, is
Rupert Isaacson: it more north
from Amsterdam or more south from
Petra Vlasblom: No, it's
it's near Ade and Ade.
Do you know that?
No, no, no,
Rupert Isaacson: no.
Petra Vlasblom: We have
to find out Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
Do you know which town it's close to?
On the German side?
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
It's interesting for the German people
and it's interesting for the Dutch people.
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
Then we, we will do so.
I invite you guys come along
and meet Petra Petra's.
Very cool.
And one of the things I really appreciate
about Petra is she came on one of my
retreats that was not about horses,
and then she also came twice to.
Learn stuff with us and our horses
with no ego at all, with no, no thing
of, well, why do I need to learn from
you when I myself am a professional?
And I was very struck by that.
That's always to me, a really good
sign if someone just comes and
saying, well, listen, I'm curious.
Without the ego of needing me to show
the same thing back there was none
of that, and that's really unusual.
So that immediately built trust.
And then when I saw her working
with one of the horses at our
place, I was like, oh, yeah,
yeah, she knows what she's doing.
But not just because she got results,
because the horse, I saw the horse
make this decision to do the thing
that Petra was encouraging him to do.
And it wasn't a question of her
making the other thing harder, which
is another natural horsemanship.
They make the wrong thing harder
and the good thing easier.
And then I, I wouldn't say there's
anything necessarily wrong with that.
To be honest, that's
what I expected to see.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What I didn't really
expect to see was the horse making
a really clear and absolute decision
without a negative reinforcement.
That was interesting to me.
So I invite you guys to come and
watch Petra at work and, you know, go
through some, some exercises with her
and she's got a good training program.
And if you're listening to this
particularly within Europe and you're
running a therapeutic place, you,
I do really encourage you strongly,
strongly, encourage you to think in
terms of having people like Petra come
in and work with your team to help
ease the human dynamic and the equine
dynamic and the human to equine dynamic.
Because sometimes an outsider can
create a really positive change when
the dynamic between the individuals
on the place has reached a where
can't really go any further or
seems that it can't go any further.
And given that we, our job is
to create wellbeing, we have
to create this wellbeing.
Our teams and with our equines.
So that was why I wanted
Petra to come on the show.
So I do encourage you to hire
her and engage her services.
So Petra, how do people reach you?
Give us the website, give us the plugs.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
You can reach me on my
website www two moons nl.
It's the, it's two M-O-O-N-S nl.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's the number two?
Petra Vlasblom: The number two,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
And then the word moons.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Do nls.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And they can find you there.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
And Rupert, I think you will
be pleased because when we are
giving the workshop together.
Do you remember the sport horse
with the mounting problem?
Rupert Isaacson: I do.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
So I trained him.
He, he had a, he had a big problem
when you wanted to mount him.
He was jumping like three,
three meters in the, in the air
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh.
And
Petra Vlasblom: after I trained
him, he only wanted to step by
the, by the, how do you say it?
Rupert Isaacson: Mountain block.
Petra Vlasblom: Mountain block, yeah.
And and he's there when we,
when we are giving the workshop
so you can work with him also.
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
Petra Vlasblom: So yeah, I
will, I would really, I'm
Rupert Isaacson: terrified.
Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no.
Because he's such a lovely horse.
Yeah.
The most lovely horse you
ever, you've ever seen.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
But it's would be very nice because
then we can combine our work together.
Rupert Isaacson: Perfect.
Petra Vlasblom: So Nice.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I very much
look forward to it, my friend.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, me too.
Rupert Isaacson: So there guy there.
Go guys.
And if you can't make this
one, we'll be doing more.
Petra Vlasblom: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So,
Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
It will not be the only one.
Petra Vlasblom: Yes, please.
Okay.
Because it's so nice.
We work the same, we do exactly
the same on a, on another level.
And that's why yeah.
Why there's a, a very special
connection also between us Rupert.
Mm.
So thank you very much for that.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I,
the, the feeling is mutual.
I really appreciate it.
Yeah.
Okay, my friend.
Well, with that, i'm going to
press that red button and we
will see you on the next one.
Petra Vlasblom: Thank you very much.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.
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