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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Taina Brown: Hi. How are you?
Becky Mollenkamp: Tired. How are you?
Taina Brown: Same. Our smallest dog, which is also our oldest dog, sleeps with us in the bed because she is all of four pounds. So she's just always cold. Like her body just isn't big enough to retain any kind of body heat. She's like about to be 18. So we're like, let's just put her on the bed with us where it's like really soft and she can get really cozy. Last night, she kept inching her way over to me to my side of the bed. We sleep in a king size bed, my wife and I. And to use my pillow, she was using my pillow. And so I would like scoot over a little bit to just like, cause I don't like, I don't like my wife touching me. I don't like my dogs touching me. I barely wear jewelry because any kind of like physical sensory thing just like, eww, drives me crazy. And so her scooting close to me and being up against me was like, ugh. So I would scoot over and then she would scoot over again. And then I'd scoot over. It was like this whole dance and it was a long night, all that to say.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, our dog sleeps with us and she's none of those things. I've always let dogs sleep with me, but she is smaller, but she knows to stay by our feet. The harder part is when my kid crawls into bed with us and he is just like your dog up on me. And then I will move to where I have like six inches on the edge of the bed where I'm gonna roll off the bed and it is just like, quit touching me. But also aren't those dogs cute? That's how they get away with it.
Taina Brown: They are, they are, they are. I mean she can to a certain extent. Like a couple times I just like picked her up and like put her in the middle of the bed and then she would just, she would, yeah, yeah. So it was a whole thing
Becky Mollenkamp: Okay, less about our dogs, but you know, we're dog people and that's okay. Anyway, so we're talking today about the name of the show, Messy Liberation. And kidding, you do that too. My kid's very big into jinx. I also have wondered, like, for some reason that just feels like it's that I don't know the roots of that. Is that a problematic thing or not? Like, it's one of those things I feel like I knew to explore, which I guess in some ways relates we're talking about, which is like this journey of unlearning and relearning and where you start and you. When you start to do that, once you've peeled back that, that whatever can, the veil, there you go. You start to see all sorts of things and question all sorts of things, which jinx is one of those where I'm like, I'm like, Ooh, I should probably do a little investigation of like, is that okay? I, I, I have no clue where it comes from where you start to learn all sorts of things that you didn't realize are problematic or problematic. But anyway, how did you get started? How did I get started? We can talk about how we got started and some of the things that we think might be helpful for people who are new.
Taina Brown: So I specifically wanted to talk about this because, well, for a couple of reasons. One, we get on here and we do a lot of shit talking, which I think a lot of the shit talking is justified. But for people who are listening who might be new to this type of conversation, who are just getting to that point of really questioning reality as it's been fed to us by the different systems and structures that we live in and out of every day. It could be like, okay, this all sounds great, but like, how do you actually apply this to everyday life, right? And then the second reason was because I was rereading through ‘Emergent Strategy’ by adrienne maree brown.
Becky Mollenkamp: Ding, ding, the award for saying emergent strategy the most times on a podcast in history goes to Taina Brown You're going to try and get in it every episode.
Taina Brown: I read it every year and I'm hosting a workshop tomorrow on mapping this out. there was a part of the book that just struck me. And obviously I've read it before, but I think I was thinking about it differently this time because I am hosting that workshop.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, it's also interesting how just as a quick aside, how you can read anything. It can be fiction, nonfiction, whatever. And how it's this reminder of, again, like lived experience and how much our experience of reality is through a lens of what we are living through. So like how you're showing up today is different than how you were the last time you read it a year ago. And you will see things differently. It will land differently. Like and I just think that's an important reminder in this whole thing, too, of what you are living through at any moment, also your history and all that, very much affects your reality.
Taina Brown: It does, it does. And I remember a professor in grad school saying, you know, if you ever want to make sure you know something, approach it as if you were going to teach it. And then that kind of puts you in a different state of mind of like asking all these questions of like, okay, does this actually make sense? Like, what does this actually mean? How can we break this down? And so that's been my approach this time reading it. And so if it's okay, I just want to read a passage.
Becky Mollenkamp: Of course it's okay, as long as it's okay with adrienne maree brown.
Taina Brown: There are a couple of passages. So this is in the chapter on resilience. And the book is broken up. There's obviously an introduction and there's like a back section that's called tools for emerging strategy. And then the majority of the book is broken. Each chapter is broken down into the principles of emergent strategy and then the elements of emergent strategy. So those are two different things. So one of the principles is resilience. And there's a section in that chapter where she talks about liberated relationships. And it really, I approached reading this chapter as not just like personal relationships, but professional relationships. Like what does it mean to be in liberated relationship, like with your colleagues and even with yourself, right? The relationship that you have with yourself. And so there is a specific part that I want to read where she talks about how we're still at the beginning of understanding what it means to be in a liberated relationship. And so she says, I say we and our intentionally here. I'm not above this behavior. I laugh at the memes. I like the apoplectic statuses, the rants with no name target that very clearly critique a specific person. I've been examining this, why I can get caught up in a mob on the internet in a way I really do in life. The positive mob mentality I participate in for, Beyonce, Aupre -Jour, feels quite different, though I know there is something in there about belonging. That's for the next book. I have noticed that at the most basic level, I feel better about myself because I'm on the right side of history, or at least the news cycle. But lately, as the attacks grow faster and more vicious, I wonder, is this what we're here for? To cultivate a fear -based adherence to reductive common values. What can this lead to in an imperfect world full of sloppy, complex humans? Is it possible we will call each other out until there's no one left beside us?
Becky Mollenkamp: It's interesting too, because her new book and I'll look up the name on it. Maybe you have it on top of your tongue, but she just wrote a new book that's just come out and she's out during the press tour of it right now.
Taina Brown: I’m going to see her next weekend.
Becky Mollnekamp: Yay. And she's talking about right relationship and calling reaching across the aisle for lack of a better term of like, how do we have these conversations that are challenging with people around difficult issues and that in a way that honors others humanity, but still honors what's right. And all of it makes me think that's all far too nuanced to be doing on social media. And so, but I totally feel what she's saying there because how many times like, I don't know, it's funny because I know you also say you're you're hella petty and you like being petty and like, or shady or whatever the word was you used and like, and I like there's this part of me there's it's like this dichotomy of who I am there's the part of me who wants to always be above it all. Right. And like, I'm better than that, quote unquote. And like, I've done the work and I'm gonna and I have deep, deeper conversations. And I do love all of those things. I do love to try to get it right again, for lack of a better word, because that's Hello, white supremacy. That's like perfectionism one right way, whatever. There's that part of me that's like, want to be fully liberated. And I want to say the right things, do the right things. And then, and never judge others and all of that. And then there's that other part of me that's like, this guy's an idiot and fuck them and fuck that and, you know, look at that. And so like, I get it. I get that. And I think all of us, that's the messiness, right? Because there is that like human element. I don't know, is it a human element? Is it is it innate or is it because of our conditioning and that we always have that piece that we can't shake because we still live inside of this world? I don't know the answer to that. I, know, we've talked a little bit, I think, in the past about gossip and how like that sort of piece is actually also in some ways liberating, right? Because it's actually about re recalling or going back to or owning a thing that was sort of ripped and stolen from women as demeaned and made into something bad. And so like, there is this piece of it that's like, okay, that's me saying, I'm going to reclaim this thing that was once a way for women to survive and say, I'm still using that. then also, is that just a cop out? So anyway, and I fully hear what she's saying, because I feel it of like, there is this messy journey that you have to go through where you can start doing the work, but I don't know that any of us ever is going to be getting it perfect and is perfect the goal.
Taina Brown: And I don't think perfection is the goal, right? I think perfection is a function of living in a capitalist system. And I think what she's really getting to here is like how the way that we have been conditioned to live, right? We enter this space of allowing people to be disposable. Right? And so she's talking about disposability politics. And you can see that in the prison, prison industrial complex, right? Where a lot of people believe if someone goes to prison, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Like they shouldn't be allowed to get a good job.
Becky Mollenkamp: That we should be able to just put them in, strap them into a chair and kill them.
Taina Brown: They shouldn't be able to, you know, make a living wage if they're doing prison labor. They shouldn't be able to have good food.
Becky Mollenkamp: Go outside, see daylight.
Taina Brown: Exactly, exactly. And so, and that really boils down to how we objectify people, right? Like we, a lot of times we talk about the objectification of people and we talk about it in a way that's about sexuality, right? Or even productivity. But call out culture, cancel culture also feeds into that because what we're saying is like if you don't completely align with our values then you're disposable. Like your worth is no longer, like you just don't have any worth anymore. And I think there's, I think the messy part of it is that. There's no way to completely divorce ourselves out of some of that. I think, for instance, because we are in an election cycle, taking someone like Trump, to be quite honest, I'm completely okay disposing of Trump. And I don't mean that in the very macabre, morbid sense. I mean, just as a human being, I want absolutely nothing to do with him.
Becky Mollenkamp: Canceling him for lack of a better term.
Taina Brown: Cancel him completely, yes, cancel him completely. I don't see a future in which Trump's values and my values will ever align. And I think that's where the complexity lies. It's one thing to say, you made a mistake and now it's completely unforgivable and there's no way we could ever be on the same page versus you made, you're doing this habitually, like this is a pattern, right? And so, and you can think about this and also in the context of like abusive relationships, right? And so this is why I love her framing of it as part of liberated relationships versus, cause like the section before this talks about transformative justice in the context of abusive relationships. And so, that can be with a romantic partner, that can be with a boss, that can be with a friend or family member, right? And so, she's creating this contrast between how to transform the relationship at the abusive level, right? But then also build on top of that in order to have a more liberated relationship, right? So if the pattern of abuse, if the person doing the abuse is unwilling to enter into a transformative process with you, then I think it becomes okay for you to say in order for me to have a liberated relationship with myself, I need to cancel you out of my life, right? And so, and also to be fair, she's also not talking about here. I wanna just really say this. She's not talking here about people who hold such positions of privilege and power that they are untouchable by the common person, right? Like she's not talking about necessarily celebrities. She's not talking about politicians or world leaders. She's talking about the relationships that we engage in on a day to day basis. So there's a difference between having so much power and privilege that you're like completely untouchable and unaccountable and you just decide you're just going to be the worst person on the planet versus my neighbor, right? Who's telling my wife about random shit on his penis or whatever, right? And so there's a difference in the relationship, the level of relationship there. And so I think the complexity is in understanding that like it is about the process because how we model that process, how we engage in that process, that is what is building the model for the next person or for the next relationship or for the next time we encounter conflict, right? And so it's not just about the what, but it's about the why and the how. And I mean, that's one of the reasons why I love this book and I love her whole framework about emerging strategy because yes, the outcome is important, but how we get there is also important. Like the ends does not justify the means. And so much of what we're taught from a very early age is that the ends does justify the needs, right? And so it doesn't matter that billionaires are participating in this exploitative process of capitalism because they're becoming billionaires, right? And so, yeah, I don't know. I just said a lot. And so I want to obviously hear your thoughts on that.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm kind of thinking of the theme for the show of like how you start this journey of messy liberation. And I think so much of you're talking about and what adrienne maree brown is talking about is radical and amazing and thought provoking. And I wonder, like, I would love to hear at what point in your journey did you start thinking like this versus because I'm feeling like some of what you're talking about might be 2 .0 or like, know, liberation 2 .0, right? Or yeah, like, I don't know, is it? I don't know, because it's more of a language we speak, but I'm wondering if some people are like, whoa, this was supposed to be about how to get into. So I wonder, like, because I think emergent strategy, do you feel like that's for the person who's at that place of like, who's just beginning to start to go down the well, the rabbit hole of like, hey, maybe this system is kind of bullshit. Like, don't, I don't, do you feel like it's for that first person, that person, that first couple of steps on the journey?
Taina Brown: I would say step 1 .5. I feel like that's what it has been for me.
Becky Mollenkamp: Which more than likely if they're listening to this, they're at step 1 .5, but maybe not. So what would have been step one?
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, but maybe not. Step one, so there's actually a companion book. Well, it's not an official companion book. I consider it a companion book to Emergent Strategy. And that is Mia Birdsong's book, How We Show Up. So have you read it? my God, it's so good. It's so good. And so I feel like a lot of what that book is about is the practical application of the ideas around our emerging strategy, right? So in her book, Mia Birdsong, she talks about through using real life examples of people that she knows or are in her networks about how we show up in community and about being super duper intentional about that. And a lot of times we enter into communal spaces and into relationships like kind of haphazardly. And my favorite example from her book is she talks about how she has this friend who had this condition. Her friend is single, lived alone. And then one night they were hanging out and she was like, she couldn't, she, well, during the day, like she couldn't get a hold of her friend. And she was like, my gosh, what if something happened? And she realized if something did happen, she wouldn't know what to do. Like she wouldn't know how to help her friend in that situation. And so when they were hanging out later that night or later that week, she was like, hey, I realized when I couldn't get a hold of you the other day, if something were to happen to you, what could I, I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to call. I didn't know what medications you were on. I didn't know who your doctor was. And so through that conversation, her and her friend put together basically a playbook for like, if something does happen to me, if I do have a medical emergency, this is all the information you need to know. And I love that because it's such an easy, practical application of intentional community of being super intentional about not just feeling good about your relationships but actually doing good in your relationships like treating people with the dignity and the humanity that they deserve and understanding what your role is and making sure that this other person that you're in relationship with is living a really a life that is thriving and not just like surviving, right? How you contribute to the wellbeing of your life. And so I think if you are at the very beginning stages of understanding what it means to live in the messiness and complexity of being a human in this world, how we show up is a really good entry point into understanding that like, we are not silos, right? We are absolutely not silos and the way that we engage with the people in our lives is really important. It moves your mindset from this toxic individualism that we engage in and we're fed day in and day out into more of a collective mindset. And then once you've gone through that, I would recommend Emergent Strategy. I remember the first time I read it, it took me a minute to get there. And this was after years of like women's gender and sexuality studies and cultural studies learning. Because, adrienne maree brown writes in such a way that is, it's her, her writing is so imaginative. And so the way she writes is almost the way a poet writes. And so you kind of have to be in the right frame of mind to like grasp the meaning of her words sometimes. But I think if you can get through how we show up, it's a good primer for being able to target some of those more, not vague, but some of those deeper concepts and emergence strategy. I don't know, what do you think? Because you read both.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love how we show up because I think it's very much about community and thinking about the collective, which I think is really important. I think a couple others that I think of that maybe to me feel like even like even a step back from that would be all about love by bell hooks, because I think it also is about how we relate with each other, but also a lot about how we relate with ourselves and our understanding of ourselves, because I think I don't know if I'm right or wrong in this at all. But I do feel like when you're at the beginning stages of this, I actually feel like a lot of the work, as much as I think this interdependence piece is so critical, I think the interdependence piece, just sort of thinking of like the hierarchy of needs and all of that. Like, I feel like it's almost the, it is the 2 .0 of liberation. I feel like the internal piece is sort of the first place we have to start because if we're not right with ourselves yet, it becomes very hard to be right in community, to be right as a collective. We don't know how to operate inside of that because we are still not feeling worthy in ourselves. We're not feeling like we have the, we're not feeling resourced inside of ourselves. You know, we don't feel like we have that understanding just internally. We haven't unpacked so much of the shit that we have taken on that it's really hard to start, I think, participating inside of collective in a healthy way. And I think unfortunately, that's too often what happens with white women. So I think maybe part of it is too, I'm speaking from my through my lens as a white woman. So I think I see that happen a lot with white body people where we skip that part, because we don't think we need to like, we're good. I'm good. I like I've done so much work. Like I'm like, I feel good. I've been to therapy. And then we get our put ourselves into collective spaces where we end up causing more harm because we haven't taken enough time to get right with ourselves first. And I think it's just so important for us to do that. So I think maybe most specifically, I'm talking to white -bodied folks or anyone who holds like, cause it's also not just that. It's also if you're heterosexual, right? It's also if you're able -bodied, if you're thin, all of the different sort of places, if you have class privilege, I think, so even if you aren't white -bodied, but you have a lot of class privilege or you aren't white -bodied, but you're thin or whatever those things are, I think, first piece is that understanding of that. think understanding the parts around yourself and your own unlearning. And so all about love is one for me that feels really helpful in that piece of understanding what it means to truly love yourself and then what love looks like with and from and to others. So I felt like that one was really great. Also, You Belong by Sebene Selassie. I don't know if you've read it, but I fucking love it. So it's kind of like Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, except it's not that and it's not written by a white man. It's written by a black woman. It's really wonderful. It is very spiritual. It is really about helping you understand that you belong in this world, right? And that we are all of the, it's some of that, like the spiritual piece of understanding how we are all connected. And that like at the cellular deep level, we are all connected and start. And I felt like that was really helpful in some of that unpacking for me and just getting connected into grounded into myself, which is then I think all about love. also think for men listening, I would suggest the will to change by bell hooks because that's also really important because I think for men, especially there's, you know, inside of patriarchy, there's a lot that needs to happen for learning. And then the other one for, we're talking only about books, but I do think books are just a really helpful way for us to understand this. Obviously also for white women, white feminism by Koa Beck was one of the most really helpful for me in understanding, because I think most especially for white women, those white women who think of themselves as sort of the good ones, the good liberals, the, I'm not like those bad white women. I'm one of the good white women. I voted for Trump. I mean, I didn't vote for Trump. I voted for, you know Clinton, I'm a good white liberal, the pussy hat wearing white women. White feminism by Koa Beck is really helpful in helping you to begin to identify the ways that maybe your feminism isn't as intersectional as you've thought. And if you don't know what that even intersectional means, then it's definitely worth reading. So I think it's really important to like for especially for when you have a privileged identity and oppressor identity, I feel like doing more of the self work first. It's so important before you start to move into more of the community work.
Taina Brown: I love that you brought that up because it really does highlight like the different experiences that we come from because, and not to say that like cultures that aren't white are like perfect and their collectivity, but I do feel like, and it has been my experience that cultures that are non -white like Hispanic or Latina or Black cultures or non -colonized cultures basically, or even some colonized cultures, right, who didn't start out as like white European. There is a sense of collectiveness in those communities, right? Like I remember growing up, like my mom was a single mom, so that meant the whole family helped out in taking care of me and my brother, right? So like there's, and not that that doesn't happen in white cultures, but sometimes the intentionalities are different. And it's not always perfect, obviously, but I think there is a difference there. And so for someone like me, it's a lot easier for my entry point to be about collectivism because my experience already, my experience has primed me for that conversation, right? But I love that you brought in All About Love by Bell Hooks. think also Feminism is for Everybody by Bell Hooks is another good one.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah that was the first bell hooks I read and I do love that and in the piece speaking of that collective piece I love that it also talks about it was for me the first time I really heard about consciousness consciousness raising groups in the seventies and it got that was the thing that got me so excited to have community it was really the eye opening place for me so I love that you bring that because that was where I started my feminist book club like five years ago after reading that book, because I was like, I need this. I want more conversations about these important issues. So I do. I love that one, too. I just think there's something about I mean, all about love is usually the one that most people recommend with bell hooks. And I think for good reason. But I also I do love feminism is for everybody.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, I think those are those are two really good places to begin. And, God, what was I gonna say? You know, we talked a lot about books, but like, you can get these on audiobook now, right? So it's easy to get through.
Becky Mollenkamp: Sure. And actually a lot of bell hooks work now that she has unfortunately left us. There's many of that that is old enough. They're not just hers. mean, others as well. There are some of these books that are old enough that they're actually in public domain and you can find them online. So that's a possibility, obviously from the library. Also, I just want to mention because so for me, my journey started a decade ago. So I'm like a decade into this, what I call my liberation journey. I was a good white feminist before that for basically the entirety of my life. Like I've always identified as being progressive. parent, you my mom was a Democrat. I learned about progressive politics. I've never, I've never voted for a Republican candidate. I've only ever voted for Democrats, which is sad because I'm not even really a Democrat. I'm far more socialist than that, but that's my choices. So I've always thought of myself as that. And it wasn't until 2014, Michael Brown was murdered a half a mile from my door here in St. Louis. And most people know about it because it was one of those earlier, like a lot of protesting that was happening. A lot of important names came out of that, like Brittany Packnett Cunningham, who a lot of people now know as well as somebody who's a big advocate. Delray, whatever, McKesson was here. Like there was just a lot happening. And that happened so close, literally to my home. Like I could see the fires. We had to leave our house that night because the fires were inching. They were closer to our house. And it really was my wake up call. And I bring it up because what actually sort of was my journey into unlearning was not initially a book or anything. It was a moment in time that felt close to home or that was awakening for some people that was George Floyd not because they lived in Minnesota but because of the timing of that with everyone in their homes and we were all at our attention was on that for other people was different things whatever it is for you. But I then took it upon myself to say I'm not just gonna look at this news aghast and the horror of what's happening I want to educate myself. I went online and I started looking up you know granted I'm a journalist so maybe you know my background's journalism that might be part of why but I want to offer this to others that I started kind of going into it with this journalist mind, go into it with a journalist mind, with a scientist mind. I started searching for data. What was the data and the differences in how police were treating white people and black people in my community? I looked for local statistics on these numbers, not just national, to see what is the data bear out, right? Like, what is the truth about the because, you know, I in that moment. There was a lot of the conversation about, he was a drug dealer and he was stealing or whatever. wanted to know because I could immediately sort of feeling myself. I have this sense that if it was me, the outcome would have been different. But I don't know if that's true. Right. So I started doing a lot of research and I started writing about it on blog posts that I've since like taken down because it just wasn't the focus of my website for long time. But that data really helped me begin to open my eyes and from there start to say, this is a thing, this is an issue. And how have I not been paying attention to it? And what did I miss? And why didn't I know this? Right? Why was my experience so different? And so that was really, for me, that starting point. It wasn't about a book that opened my eyes because I might not have been ready for it until I had like this moment where I was like, let me investigate. So I offer to people like the next time there's a thing that happens in your community do some investigation or don't even take it from that. Like start to look now, what are the real differences between how men and women are being treated in your community? Pay differences, job titles, know, who's in public office, the same for the difference between black people and white people in your community, who's being arrested, you know, what are the sentences they're receiving, you know, who holds privilege in office and who doesn't, those kinds of things. Forget what you're reading a book, just knowing the truth of what it looks like on the ground and where you live can be really a great place to begin your own journey.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah, that I love that you indicated like a very specific moment in time because I think that's something that felt very personal to you, right? And it kind of goes back to what we were just talking about a few minutes ago about like it starts internally before it kind of moves outward into like collectivism and community for a lot of people, especially for a lot of white body people and my experience was somewhat similar. like I grew up super fundamental evangelical Christian like almost my entire life. And when like to the point where I went to like missionary training school and then I worked at a church for a really long time. so my personal and professional life was in this bubble. And the church that I was going to just outside of Atlanta at the time like touted itself as like this multi -generational, multicultural church, like their biggest claim to fame was that they had over a hundred different nations represented, like it was very diverse, et cetera. And so in this bubble, there was like this fog of like being able to really understand what life was like outside of that religious bubble. And then I remember I got fired basically because my new bosses were assholes. And I was like, I, one, I can't fucking respect you. I didn't say it like that at the time, obviously, because I was a good Christian girl, but it just created a lot of tension at work. And so they were just like, yeah, we're going to have to let you go. and so then at that point I was like, well, maybe I'll go back to school and finish my degree because that had always been the plan. And then I got caught up in the church stuff and never went back to school and finished. So at this point, I was like 30, 31, thinking about going back to finish my bachelor's and I ended up at a private liberal arts woman's college outside of Atlanta. Like the complete opposite, right, of what had been my experience for the past 30 something years. And I remember when I first visited campus and I sat in on a class on Black Feminisms. And I didn't know what that meant. was like, it was one, was the only option for me to sit in on that aligned with my schedule. And so I was like, okay, sure, whatever. And so I really enjoyed the discussion and all of that. But I also remember just leaving really confused because there were black students in that class. It was taught by a black professor, black woman professor, Dr. Newsome, love her. I don't know if she's still teaching there, but just shout out to Dr. Newsome, because she had a big impact on my college experience. It was at Scott College just outside of Atlanta. And they were talking about their experiences with racism. And I just remember sitting there thinking to myself, racism isn't real anymore. Like that doesn't exist anymore. Like I just could not relate. It was so outside of my scope of thinking that people could be racist because I had been in this church bubble for so long. Mind you, racism is prevalent in this church bubble. I just didn't see it for what it was, right? Because of the ideology. And so I just remember leaving that class and thinking, what are they talking about? And then once I enrolled, I remember the really big turning point for me was I was sitting in a class on Medieval Italy and we were, it was very beginning of the semester and so we were covering the Crusades and finding out like the historical retelling of what the Crusades were about. Like I just remember learning, it was like basically missionaries, right? Going to these other parts of the world like trying to comfort people to love God. And then I'm sitting in this class and they're like, no it was about all this other stuff and it was very brutal and very violent. And I just felt like the rug had been pulled out from under my feet. I was like, I have been fucking lied to this whole time? Like I just remember being so angry and so like, my God, like it was, that semester was awful for me because I was just like, what the fuck has been my life? Like I felt like I'd wasted all this time. Like I was just so angry. I felt hoodwinked and I felt betrayed. And that was the beginning point for me for like doing some of that internal deconstruction for myself about, okay, Christianity is a scam. For the most part, if you have faith, if you believe in that stuff, that's great, but I would challenge you to ask yourself why and how you practice your Christianity, right? Because I feel like a lot of people who practice Christianity are so far removed from the actual message of this person named Jesus, right? And listen, I went to ministry school, I took Old Testament and New Testament classes in college in both undergrad and grad school. I know what I'm fucking talking about when it comes to Christianity and religion. But yeah, that was the beginning of my own internal journey of just deconstructing not just religion, but my whole worldview, my entire worldview. It was such a transformative experience for me. Hard as hell because it was like I felt like I was just kind of like left. I felt like I'd been robbed late I was left with nothing and now I have to reconstruct what I believed about the world.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well you had been. It's funny I was thinking the other way you had been robbed before that of reality but i see what you're saying yeah yeah that's hard i mean that's a very different experience than my own where like i was always raised with at least the basic fundamentals of this idea that there are differences and that we love everyone just you know not even despite but because of those things and all of that but just that the world view i had was not as connected as it could have been and wasn't as honoring of those differences. was more like, I think I had more of that good white, like we're all, why can't we all just get along? We're all just humans kind of a thing. That really is so dismissive of, no, there are very much differences in the way we experience life. I just want to add too, because I think a feeling I have that feels similar and to expand this beyond race, because I think that's important in that this journey the for a lot of us, think the entry point, because one of the biggest barriers, obviously, that we all live with is racism. So a lot of us, our entry point is through that window of exploring racism. And the intersectional piece of this is what honors that it's far more than that. There's all of these pieces of our identity. And for me, one of those moments was this idea around fat liberation. And my experience of that was, first, I want to just honor, sometimes we just don't have language, didn't have any amount of language around that. I knew fat to be bad. Fat is bad, right? That was the only language I had I had never heard of until far more recently. Anything like body positivity, body liberation, fat liberation, whatever, fat acceptance, all of these things. None of that language. Literally the only language I knew was fat is bad. And so when I remember first learning about like healthy at every size and through hosting a podcast. This is really not that long ago, seven years ago maybe, and being like, what the hell are you talking? I wanted to believe it because I was very much at that point in this deconstructing mode and liberation -minded mode. But the point being, it's messy and there will be new things that will challenge you, so there is no input, right? And so for me, I had done a lot of this work around race and around sexism, but this idea around body liberation was really hard because I was like, I had just no space in my brain for somebody telling me that I could be healthy and fat, that a person could be fat and healthy, that a person could be fat and love themselves, that a person could be fat and loved. Like none of that existed in my worldview from what I had been given. And that was really hard. I had that same sort of like, what the fuck? And then the feeling of like, I had been robbed in that, all these years up to this, what did I miss out on? Like, what could have been if only I could have had this language sooner and if I had known sooner and if I could have loved myself fully sooner. And that continues for me now around, you know, my own acceptance and understanding around gender and queerness and what does it mean to be a man and a woman and all of this bullshit around the gender binary. That's been newer for me. So I share all of that to say the messy pieces. It's not linear. There's not like one path that you take into the work. There's all of these angles at which can serve as entry points. And also once you're in the work, it continues. And I don't know what's going to be the next thing for me, right? Like I bet there'll be more. There's going to be more. My kid will probably start to do some of this work as he gets into his teens. And I'm going to be even older and more like as much as I don't want to starting to fossilize into some of my ideas and be challenged. And I'm excited for those challenges.
Taina Brown: It's funny that you mentioned like the fat liberation piece because I had never heard that until I got to grad school in my late 30s and someone in the cohort above me was her thesis was on fat liberation. And I was like, what the hell is that? Like, it just, that concept was like, what? But I think what you said about having the language for it is really important because what I felt like, so when I did go back to school at that time and I had that moment, that pivotal moment about the Crusades, I was in my early 30s and I went back as like a sociology and anthropology major. And then through taking a series of courses that intersected with like feminist ideas, well, first of all, it's a woman's private liberal arts college. So almost everything is gonna have like some kind of critique of an analysis of society and power structures and things like that. but what it felt like was like, now I have a language for all these experiences that I've had because I knew that I was treated differently when I was in the church bubble. I didn't know why I couldn't attribute it to being a fat person. I couldn't attribute it to being someone who's not white. I couldn't attribute it to being a woman. I knew that it was different. I didn't understand why. And there was this tension in my mind around being this idea that was being perpetuated that we're all alike and we're all treated similarly. Like I wanted so much to believe that, but then my lived experience told me different. And so I was gaslighting myself into saying, well, maybe it's just in my head. Maybe it's just my imagination. It couldn't possibly be what it is. And so, but once I had this moment of realization, now it's like, now I have the language for this. And on the note of language, like I want to just mention a couple of things, right? we, in this messy conversation that we're continuing to have about the messiness of life, right? Like we use the word intersectionality. And I want to be very clear about what that word means as someone who was a feminist scholar. when people say, well, a lot of people use the word intersectionality, but I feel like most people, sometimes what they mean are intersecting identities, right? Like I am black and a woman and fat and disabled and queer. Those are my intersecting identities, right? When you're talking about intersectionality specifically, you're talking about how those intersecting identities engage with the power structures that are at play in our lives, right? So if there's no analysis or no critique of power, if there's no investigation into how power is at play in a specific situation with a specific body, then that is not intersectionality. And so just want to make that like super clear because I think if you are at the very beginning stages of entering into this conversation about messy liberation and what that means on a day -to -day basis, you're going to hear different people talking about a lot of different things and throwing terminology around that feels foreign and that sometimes they don't clarify what they mean when they say those things. And I think it's really important to define language, to define what we mean when we say the things that we say because that can minimize confusion and make it easier for people to jump into the conversation. And so I wanted to say that.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I just want to quickly shout out Kimberlé Crenshaw, who was the person who coined that term intersectionality. And I'm pretty sure there's a great Ted Talk of hers that we can link to in the show notes. So I'll link to that in the show notes so that people can go and watch that if you're curious more about what that means from the person who was the first to really bring that to the fore.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah. Lots of Ted Talks, interviews, different kinds of things, conferences. The first paper where she used it, I think it was like in 1988 or 1989, and it was called Mapping the Margins. And she's a legal scholar and a critical race scholar. Everybody knows that now. But but she coined that term because she was talking about the experiences of Black women in different industries, how they were being discriminated against. And so she was using the power of the legal system to explain the concept of intersectionality, right? And that paper's so old, I think it's free to, like you can Google mapping the margins, Kimberlé Crenshaw on and find it, and we can link it in the show notes. The other thing I want to just shout out to is that like, in terms of like my entry point into this conversation. There's a blog, right, on your feminist founders website that people can or substack that people can read. And then an episode on your other podcasts, Feminist Founders, where we talk a little bit more about that.
Becky Mollenkamp: Which just came out when this airs, that episode will have just come out like a couple of days ago. So yeah, we'll cross promote. I love it. Thank you.
Taina Brown: Which is weird that was not the plan but this is where we arrived.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, it wasn't, but I love it because, yeah, we talked about feminism and womanism and things like that in that episode and some of this terminology. I wanted to quickly also mention that speaking of intersectionality and Kimberlé Crenshaw and talking about like the beginnings of that was understanding all women don't experience the world in the same way, right? And power structures in the same way. White women have a very different experience with the systemic issues in this country, the power in this country and sexism in a very different way than Black women experience sexism. Because white women are experiencing only sexism, right? And that is deeply problematic. It's something we need to fight against, but it's a very different experience. And this is, think, at the heart of a lot of this because that was my understanding of the world was sexism and it sucks and I was a feminist because I didn't like sexism. What I didn't understand was my experience with sexism was not the same as your experience with sexism because you also have this intersecting identity as a Black woman. So in that place where sexism and racism meet is also now been coined or called misogynoir by Moya Bailey, who's a writer who coined that term. And so, but then if you add on and you have a disability. So there's another intersection of how you experience the same systems, the same power structures that I experience. I'm experiencing them with fighting against sexism. And that's a problem, but this is where white women, I just want to hammer this because of white women, we are so problematic because we see the world through that lens. We think, yeah, sexism sucks. And I want to smash the patriarchy and fight the powers that be. But when we're talking about that, too many of us are only talking about that piece, the sexism piece, and falsely believing that that now means that all women are gonna have a better life because we've gotten rid of sexism. When in fact, if we are not at the exact same time dismantling racism, then I've only helped myself. I'm not helping you and not all women are gonna have a better experience. So sorry I went off track. I feel a lot of responsibility as the white person in the room to really speak to the other white people who are listening to help those folks understand why we as white women often think white men are the most problematic when in fact we are as white women. And that is the reason because white men have all of the, we know they have all the benefits, like, okay, fine. Like that's expected. It is like the devil showing up in the room. But the person who, right, but the person who's problematic is the person who doesn't realize that they are basically the devil in disguise. They're really problematic. That's the one we have to be scared of because we can't see them, but they are actually the same as that other person. And that is us as white women until we understand the differences in our lived experiences and how these intersections affect the way the world treats us and treats other women. Until we understand that and begin to say, my feminism is not feminism unless it includes all of those intersections. I'm not free until we're all free. Then that's a problem. And that is why we are the biggest problem.
Taina Brown: Yeah. Like do away with the pussy hats. Do away with the slogan, the future is female. Like all of those things are just not inclusive at all. And I really appreciate you for just like harping on that because I think it's a really important point to harp on. Like, because as you said, like even if you're a white woman, like you may be disabled, you may be in the LGBTQ plus community, you may be fat. There's still so many ways as a white person, as a white woman that you can be discriminated against that are not just based on your sex and your gender that people miss. I want to, I know we're like going too long. And so I just, want to wrap up with this other portion of the book. And so the last principle of emergent strategy is creating more possibilities. she, adrienne maree brown, she tackles this from a very specific lens, right? She's really coming from an Afrofuturist perspective. And so Afrofuturism is this idea that the, it's really about speculative fiction, right? But what a lot of black activists and organizers have done is just kind of map that onto real life. Right? Use that as a jumping off point for creating better possibilities in a better world. And so Afrofuturism is this idea in fiction work about the concepts and ideas that are important to African -Americans being a part, like how that intersects with the idea of like futurism, right? Building a new world, building new technologies, things like that. So if you think that the best example is the movie like Black Panther, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: I was going to say or Octavia Butler.
Taina Brown: Or Octavia Butler's parable of the sower, right? Like those are Afrofuturistic examples that we can point to. But I think that concept and that idea can be mapped onto this conversation about messy liberation because the whole premise of being a part of this conversation is like, okay, how do we build a better world, right? Like how do we build better systems and better relationships? And so there's a part in this chapter at the end that I thought was just brilliant that I want to share with everyone. And so she says, ‘How change works in collective ways disrupting the single white male hero narrative centering marginalized communities, meaning we are the center of the story as opposed to the sexy and unbelievably stylish psychic. And visionary fiction is hard and realistic and hopeful. It's neither utopian nor dystopian. It's more like life. Imagination is one of the spoils of colonization, which in many ways is claiming who gets to imagine the future for a given geography. Losing our imagination is a symptom of trauma. Reclaiming the right to dream the future, strengthening the muscle to imagine together as Black people is a revolutionary decolonizing activity. What we are all really asking, what Octavia was asking, is how do we, who know the world needs to change, begin to practice being different? How do we have to be for justice to truly be transformative? Not them, that massive amorphous air quotes them, that is also us in our heads and hearts, or that loves us, or that is tired of this shit, but is family to us. Not them, because maybe they don't recognize yet that these changes are the key to human survival, but us, us who are awake and awakening. How do we need to be for Black Lives to Matter? What do we need to heal in ourselves in order to offer a future of any real peace or to become the protagonist of this human story and earn the flip of the page of all the sentient life in the universe to claim the future as a compelling place for our miracles. This is everything.’ And I think what we forget or lose so often in the conversation about messy liberation and building a better world is that yes, it's hard and it's overwhelming and it's frustrating and angering, but it's also a place of hope because there is the opportunity there to imagine something different. And when you live in that place, the possibilities are infinite. We get to create the world that we want to live in by what we do today, by the decisions and the actions and the relationships that we engage in today. And I think that is what sometimes gets lost in the conversation. Like it's not just about being angry, although our anger is justified. It's not just about being pissed off. It's not just about being frustrated, although all of those feelings are justified and necessary for the work. But there is also hope, there's creativity, there's imagination, there's joy, there's pleasure in all of that too. If we only focus on the anger and the grief and the frustration, we miss out on the part that's actually, I think the most important, which is the creating of the building, which requires hope and joy and pleasure. And so that's my last few thoughts on that that I wanted to leave everybody with.
Becky Mollenkamp: A great question to be asking yourself as you go on this journey or if you're new in this journey is what am I doing? Like a way to bring it back to the reality of like a practical experience is asking yourself each day, what did I do today? Or what am I going to do today to be building the world I want to create? And I know it's like that cheesy, how can I be the change I wish to see in the world? But honestly, that quote like resonates for a reason because yeah, what are we doing each day? What have I done today to build this world that I say I want to be a part of building? So thank you for this conversation.
Taina Brown: Thank you for indulging me.
Becky MollenkampAnd adrienne maree brown, someday you're going to come on this show. All right.Taina Brown: Someday you're gonna be on our podcast.